024 - Shelfington - Testing Inclines
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- Опубліковано 3 сер 2022
- Welcome to Ian's N Gauge channel!
In a previous video I showed how I'd printed out the Shelfington track plan and pinned it down to the XPS foam on top of the baseboard.
In this video, while I still had the space to do it, I’m going to show how I tested which of my locos could climb up a steep incline.
If you've just got back into the hobby after a long break, then please let me know how you've found the experience.
Alternatively, if you're an old hand at modelling in N gauge, then please impart your wisdom, and point me in the right direction, especially if you see me making a mistake or heading for disaster!!!
Thanks very much for watching.
Ian
As someone who is starting out in n gauge I found this very useful. Thanks Ian.
Thank you very much! Glad it was of some help! Check out my Curved Incline Testing videos too for more info! All the best, Ian.
A very delicate problem: inclines can cause trains stopping half way climbing up the mountain. Your way of testing is a very practical/scientific way to cope with the problem. Well done, Ian.
All the best
Valentin
Thanks very much Valentin! All the best, Ian.
Interesting experiment Ian ! The sound fitted locos bring back memories as the 101 dmu was a staple of my local line into Glasgow for many years until the 156's appeared in the 80's. Cheers Euan
Thanks Euan! Yes, as soon as I heard the 101 start up it immediately brought back memories of journeys between Darlington and Hartlepool and sometimes up to Newcastle! I'll definitely be buying more sound fitted locos! Cheers, Ian.
The Graham Farish 08 is also my first ever sound-fitted loco, and was also very prone to stalling, even after the recommended running-in. It was actually my worst running loco, and the problem seemed to be when the wheels encountered lateral movement (on one slightly rough section of track join where there was some yaw, and over the part of points where there's a little notch out of the inside of the main rail to accommodate the switch rail). I sent it back to The Model Centre, who sent it to GF for manufacturer repair, and now it's come back and works well. Repair notes include: replaced missing screw, replaced PCB and speaker, addressed poor pickup contact.... so if yours doesn't get better with running-in then it might be worth returning for repair
Hi Ian, sorry I’m a bit behind after being on holiday. Anyway, inclines are a big part of my layout, my steepest is around 2.8%, all of my diesels go round it ok as you would have seen, some are better than others, my class 73 isn’t that good as it’s very light but can still haul 4 coaches. Steam on the other hand aren’t so good and as much as I’d like my Castle class to be hauling an 8 coach passenger train it won’t and 4 coaches are around it’s mark to.
The problem with inclines is when you have them on a curve which makes it more difficult for the loco to pull the weight of the train up and around the curve. You will have no problems in what you’re planning and I look forward to seeing it as you go.
As for sound loco’s they’re great but as you say expensive. I only have one with sound but when that’s running with others without you hear the diesel noises and gives a good background for a running session, hope that makes sense, cheers for now Ian, John
Excellent video. I've recently transitioned from OO to N My Farish 08 with sound had a similar start but after a while running on the rolling road to run-in she has been perfect ever since. The only loco I've had an issue with so fas has been a Dapol class 66 where it had a dislodged driveshaft on one end right out of the box - that was fun (not). I'll follow you with interest and I'll perhaps get updating my own channel later in the year.
Another successful experiment Ian. By and large modern traction is pretty good with inclines but it was good to see them all going up a pretty stiff incline by N gauge standards. The sound fitted locos both sounded good. Stephen
Thanks Stephen! I really enjoyed making this one and I was surprised by the results! I certainly didn't expect either of the shunters to make it up a 4% grade while pulling coaches! Yes, I think I'm now a convert to sound and can't wait to start making some decent running session videos with them! All the best, Ian.
Nice incline test Ian! General rule of thumbs for inclines is, as long as possible that you can fit in, and the lowest gradient you can get, Curves as mentioned by others is another hurdle so the key is plenty of testing. Regarding locos, some steam locos couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding. Mainly the Farish Brand as they can be light in weight, also bare in mind the stock it is pulling. Dapol coaches are a lot heavier than Farish coaches. The old Minitrix locos are renowned as good pullers, but due to there age will need to be well serviced to start with, and new traction tyres fitted as these locos can be at least 40 years old and the rubber goes hard on the wheels therefore not giving it proper traction. Just a few thoughts to mull over, All the best Tony.
Thanks Tony! Yes, you bring up some excellent points! Steam isn't something I'm planning on running, although I have designed a fiddle yard with a turntable so who knows! Weight of rolling stock is a good point! I don't think I'll ever be pulling more than five coaches, so most locos should be able to manage that, even around a short curved incline! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, very interesting stuff and tests went well, I have an incline of my own to build on my new track plan but its 1:20 so that will be interesting if the loco gets up that! Cheers Gary
Very good Ian, it's always fun doing this stuff. Adding curves also adds a bit more resistance which I found out on the Helix so had to go another turn. Never had an issue with a diesel so far but steamers can vary. All the best
Thanks Chris! Yes, this was a fun video to make! Yeah, diesel locos seem much happier with inclines and curves from what I've seen in other videos! Cheers, Ian.
Greetings Shelfington and hello Ian 👋 Action 😁 fantastic to see trains running 🤩 Of course I am biased towards Class 33's 😍 and I love a good DMU too 😉 As for gradients 😲 beware having curves on the incline 🤔 as they can really add to the drag on the loco 🤕 and N Gauge Kettle's have no love of inclines at all 😫 With the new additions, I'm looking forward to seeing lots of Thursday night action 😎 Very best wishes from the Emerald Isle ☘️
Hello to the Emerald Isle folk and Paul! Yes, running locos this week! I love my 33, but have developed a soft spot for the 101 due to my childhood memories! Unfortunately, if I decided to keep the inclines as designed, they will both run around corners! I never really had plans for running steamers on the layout, but then I went and designed Fiddletown, which has a turntable, so maybe I'll end up not adding inclines to Shelfington at all! Yes, I'm looking forward to filming some running sessions, probably in about six months time at my rate of progress! Lol! All the best, Ian.
I get your point about sound, currently looking at building a fleet from scratch and wondering whether to bite the bullet from the start or upgrade at a later date. first world problems!
It's a tricky one with sound fitted locos! I think it's cheaper and easier to buy them from the start rather than retro fitting - which can also be tricky if your new to it like me! I tend to buy sound fitted locos that I remember well from when I was yoinger and have been very impressed so far! Like you say, first world problems eh? All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian, I’m in the process of building a N gauge 1.5 x 0.75metre layout and I’m thinking of adding an incline to get my inner loop turnout/point back to the first loop (outer)with a figure of 8 which will make its way over a station and back to the other side. This in effect will be a reverse loop. It looks like it might be possible. I made a bit of a boo boo/mistake by not planning this in originally . The third loop will have a planned reverse loop in to get back to the middle loop point, but the trains continue anticlockwise and I don’t want to be adding more points cross overs. So I have to reverse trains to get back to the inner loop. I will have to work out what degrees rise I will need to clear the tracks below and hope it’s less than 4 degrees. I will have to insert a point in the outer loop. If I can do this it will look amazing. Hope you understand without a photo of the layout.
Hi Roger! I think I understand what you're thinking about doing! It means your incline will be on a curve, right? It may be worth checking out my 055 / 056 videos which deal with Curved Incline Testing! A gradient of 4% seems quite high, especially when considering the radius of the curve you'll be dealing with! Large diesels may be able to cope when pulling a train, but smaller ones, and steamers will definitely struggle! You're right though, if you can pull it off it will look amazing! Good luck! All the best, Ian.
@@iansngauge thanks very much Ian. Yes the start would be on a straight the a curve which would help get up to 35mm minimum of height to clear the train/track. Had a rough look tonight and it’s about 4.3 degrees ish which is pushing it a bit and maybe could be a little higher. They recommend 1 in 30/40 ish which works at 3 degrees ish. I worked it out using Pythagoras tangent opposite over adjacent.
I still have a lot to do for the rest of it, ie more point motors,switches, ballasting, signals and a little more track, so I’ll make provision for a possibility of an incline. I have a class 24 Diesel 372-975Z one with red top no 245 and recently bought a class 67 Wrexham and Shropshire from rails of Sheffield. Running Dcc with Bachman EZ. Ps just need some more trains now. 😂
What you havent taken into account in your test is where your incline will be positioned on your layout. This test is just a straight with a long run up and might not be replicated on the layout template you have.
If you have the lead in to the incline from a curve or shorter straight, you may find even a 3 carriage train struggles andcertainly on a 4% and maybe even 3%incline. Trains will find it harder going up an incline if the entry is from an inside curve which obviously has a tighter radius than an outside curve. The rule with inclines is dont have them starting from a curve. If you cannot replicate your long run up on your planned layout, you need to try different locoson an actual representation of where it will be. Generally 2.5% incline is considered the maximum to use even witha longrun up. Hope this helps!
Yes, you make some good points, although there was no long run up as you suggested! The locos started at the bottom of the incline! If I decide to go ahead with inclines on the layout, then the actual gradient I'll be using will be slightly less than 3% but will be situated on a curve in order to avoid pointwork! All the best, Ian.
Hi Ian - Very interesting and enjoyable update but now my turn to bring up a number of points.
This is the sort of update that really helps newbies in making decisions and building layouts.
As your aware I have done a number of incline tests to the degree my locos can haul 24 Mk 1 carriages up just over a 1% incline.
This incline is on a bend as it goes upto the raised terminus as I have no option. The other one is completely on a straight.
Now personally if I didn't have to have an incline I would not bother. Only reasons I have is that my layout is basically a figure of 8 and my terminus due to lack of room has to go on a upper level.
Having said that at present this was done using DC but will change to DCC eventually.
Not a great lover of sound personally. I think the steam trains sound rather tinny and anyway if I want sound up there it will be music or recording of trains running.
At present I am doing a series of short updates on building a N Gauge Scalescenes Coal Shed for newbies like myself to watch and see what all the pitfalls there maybe and there are a few of them I can tell you.
Either way the pitfalls are minor so far and the build is going very well.
Regards Chris
Thanks Chris! Yes, I've seen your incline tests! Twenty four coaches is fantastic - I don't think they'd fit along the whole length of my layout! Lol! If I decided to go for inclines, both of mine will be on short curves, but I haven't completely decided on whether to go with them yet! I'm a definite convert to sound, well, certainly diesel sound! I haven't heard many steamers, but I may indulge in one at some point! I'll be catching up with your Scalescenes build when I have some time! In the meantime, good luck! All the best, Ian.
If you put your incline on a bend and it is not to long dont forget to add super elevation on the outside track. My bends are so large I dont have to worry about that.
Regards Chris
Hi Ian, with the track pins, have you tried inserting them on the outside of the rails? Keep up the journey and the videos I find them educational, thanks.
Hi Peter! No, haven't tried them on the outside as I find it quite difficult to drill holes into such a small area of sleeper! I'll be glueing my track down using Copydex when I eventually get around to laying my track more permanently! Thanks for the suggestion though! Glad you're finding the videos useful! All the best, Ian.
If your real gradient will be on a curve the load on the locomotive will be much higher. I ran into problems with north american locos on a 3% grade on a tight curve and redesigned my layout without gradients. In my experience the north american N gauge mechanisms are much better. I also came across a UA-cam video about a USA layout which showed that another brand of decoder worked much better for gradients using the same loco, however I can't find it now. I do recall that the underperforming decoder was by Digitrax which is a brand I like.
Good point! I'm still not completely decided on whether to have gradients in the layout, but if I do, they'll have to be on curves as otherwise they'll have to include pointwork which is something I definitely want to avoid! I think I've seen that video, or a similar one, where changing decoders made a difference! I thought it was quite odd as the decoder doesn't receive feedback from the wheels so doesn't know its on a gradient, but maybe the speed steps were set up differently for steadier acceleration to avoid wheel slip? In the video I saw the guy was also pulling a huge number of wagons, and stated that he was only having the issue on one part of his layout, saying that everything worked fine in a different location! All the best, Ian.
Sound certainly adds another dimension. I no longer use it myself purely because I've always got music on and that drowns out the trains. But when I pause the music to do a video I sometimes wonder whether sound should be making a come back!
It certainly does add another dimension Steve! My layout is pretty small, so I don't see me having sound on all running locos all of the time, but I think at least one running loco will add that little bit extra to operations! Even when performing the test with the 33 and 03, I was craving for them to make a sound!!! All the best, Ian.
Great video. You have probably thought or this but if you combine curves with grades you will have reduced performance. Cheers Peter.
Thanks Peter! Yes, I've given it a little thought, as my inclines will both be on curves unfortunately! However, if I decide to go ahead and implement them, they'll be much reduced gradients to the one I tried in the video as that was a sort of worse case example! Cheers, Ian.