I think Joffery would have always turned out as a monster regardless if he was born first or not, as he clearly showed signs as a child (killing cats).
I can imagine Orys as a pretty cool dude. He has the warrior blood of the Baratheons, their size and strength. He has their happiness (Stannis is an exception lmao) and their easiness in making friends. But at the same time, he has the Lannister blood. He’s ruthless, ambitious, cunning, cold and silent when necessary, intelligent and willing to do anything for his house and family. And I know; He’s both cold *and* happy? Well it’s more of a, he can choose between them. Like when someone tests him by insulting him and shit, he won’t go Bobby B and smash them, but more of a Tywin, crushing them with words and then later having them completelly destroyed. So he’s not as hot blooded as most Baratheons. But when he’s at parties, he’s not brooding like Stannis and Tywin. He parties hard and celebrates with the many people he befriends. Honestly King Orys I Baratheon, would be fucking amazing
GRRM seems to have a consistent pattern of foiling any archetypical alpha-male characters and ensuring they do not rise higher than the meek+honorable or intellectual male characters
I don't think little finger would let Sansa die, she reminded him of her mother. he would find a way to get her out or would not frame her at all. That would change things.
@@alexandertsvetkov8571 Well Sansa would have been a much better investment for him than Cat. She was pretty and younger, so she could have definitely given him children. Cat was a little up in age at that point and already was a mother of 5 (so her children would still be a main priority of hers). More importantly, Sansa was easily to manipulate. I don't understand why he married her off to the Boltons in the show (especially since he already had Sansa in the palm of his hands at that point. He should have taken her for himself.
@@alexandertsvetkov8571 That's where I was coming from basically...if Catelyn is still around, Sansa isn't as important to him. Catelyn was what it was always about.
My guess ahead of watching: they would have still had a toxic family dynamic, but without Ned being able to proclaim the crown prince's bastardy, he could have focused on helping them get their shit together. FR Robert should have named Supernanny his hand
I really feel like the North wouldn’t have Robb as their champion in a trial by combat. I guess it’s plausible but there’s so many better options and I think even Sansa would know that. I also doubt she’d risk her brother like that.
I agree. Ned recently died, Robb was prepared his whole life to take over being the heir apparent, so the transition would be smoother but it wouldn't be settled yet, she wouldn't risk thrusting the position onto Bran who wasn't prepared for it in any way and having the North destabilised further from going through two lord protectors in a matter of months
Given the assumptions in this storyline, I guess Aria would still have been trained by Syrio Forel, and at some point, Sansa would have found out. Also, there‘s no reason why he shouldn‘t still be alive. And this would make him an excellent choice as a champion for her, making the outcome of the fight far less obvious, if not even turning the odds *against* Barristan, which again would change more or less *everything* that comes after in this „What If“ thought experiment.
Her uncle Benjen would be a good pick. Commander Mormont knowing what he's facing would let him borrow longclaw. Benjen would fight in light armour much like Bron did and with a light sword would make for a good fight. If he can't be released then Littlefinger might suggest her Aunty send a knight from the vale like Bronze yohn. Once in king's landing two riders from Starfall turn up and declare that because her father returned the sword "dawn" to them its sworn to protect any Stark from harm until it has a new owner and Bronze wins with it.
Margaery and Olenna are clever- if she gets to the Iron Throne they’ll listen even it comes to beyond the wall, just depends if their armies are enough…
They're clever, but just their grounded nature in reality is probably what will prevent them from listening to beyond the Wall stuff. Tyrion didn't really believe it for a while, either. I mean - who would, right?
I don't think Cercsi would be as crazy protective of her children if she never lost her firstborn. Also I think Bronn would still stick around cause Tyrion and still showed up at the Inn and met Bronn.Brown. Also with the Starks still in Winterfell the North would help defend the wall from the wildings
Good thoughts on Bronn - I have to disagree, but it's certainly not outlandish! I think Cersei's nuts over her kids no matter what personally, but the prophecy probably does play a factor.
If only Brandon Stark had finished Littlefinger during their dual. Here's a what if scenario, What if Robert Baratheon died of his wounds after the Battle of the Trident.
@@Brandonhayhew Yeah that sounds more likely, now that you mention it. Since Ned would never really want the iron throne even if he was forced to take it.
I think Robert is an absentee father regardless of his child's hair color. He'll continue to be selfish and disinterested in Cersei. I think the change will be in how Cersei treats the child... which would be with contempt as it would remind her of Robert. Part of the root of Joffrey's awfulness comes from Cersei feeding his eventual narcissism with how beautiful and perfect he is. She spoiled him. (Another part would come from being inbred.) If a trueborn child is born, he may develop a well placed distrust of his mother and her motives. If Cersei continues to have sex with Jaime, then she'll likely produce pure Lannister children which may contrast enough with her trueborn child to bring their parentage into doubt. If she has children by Jaime, Cersei will know who fathered it, so she's going to act upon this in some way.
What if daenerys didn't burn kings landing What if the valyrian freehold conquered westeros What if the tragedy of summerhall never happened What if Robert found out about jon snow's parentage What if the assassin killed Catelyn and Bran What if stannis sided with aerys in Robert's rebellion
@@katherinealvarez9216 wasn’t really pissed off, I think it was because they couldn’t have a black haired kid be born, because then people would think something was wrong
I don't think that match would be offered because it's not as much of an honor... Giving the hand of the heir is a great way to command future loyalty to the crown. Offering Myrcella, who has no claim to anything, isn't really helping Ned with anything... it just takes away an opportunity to make a match with a vassal house.
@@TheBattProductions How about a what if the Starks were werewolves and the targaryens Weredragons? It would make for a very interesting what-if and it would completely change this story of Game of Thrones, you could even make the Lannisters into vampires
Man, thats a great scenario. I never really thought about it. Robert and Cersei had a great scene in the show that makes me want them as a power couple.
Still got my list: What If: Robb campaigned for The Iron Throne? What If Quellon Greyjoy didn’t die at the Battle of The Mandor? What If Young Griff was in the show? What If Baelor “The Blessed” didn’t die and tried to convert Westeros to The Seven? What If Ned was smart and sent his daughters to Dragonstone before he tried to arrest Joffrey and Cersei? What If Stannis died at The Battle of Blackwater? What If Ygritte was taken prisoner and not killed at The Battle of Castle Black? What If Bittersteel became King instead of Daeron? What If Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel won The Third Blackfyre Rebellion? What If The Blackfyres built their own empire in Essos instead of campaigning for Westeros (similar to Daenerys)? What If Brienne took Stannis to The Night’s Watch instead of executing him? What If Ser Dennis Mallister won The Night’s Watch election? What If Lysa Arryn joined Robb? What If Lysa Arryn joined Stannis (Robin marries Shireen)? What If Stannis waited for The Wildlings like Davos suggested?
If Cersei was prego with Oris , that might have affected the conception time of Joffrey , maybe Joffrey was never born and the next in line would be tommen .
While this is absolutely amazing there are two small things you forgot. If Sansa (who would be of age by this time) Married Orys- and he was king then there would be kings guard they’d know she was innocent. And the girl can’t lie yet. 2) she’d still have Lady. Arya would still have Nymeria. Because THAT was due to Joff being a little psycho and mommy wouldn’t need to call for Lady’s death. The rest of this I would read this fanfic in a heart beat. Omfg.
I have to have a disagree about the scorpion, Jorah was distracted by barristan selmy so if he wasn’t there Jorah Mormont would’ve successfully protected Daenerys, You keep forgetting about that detail.
The Oris - Joffrey relatonship would be key. If Oris has any of the Robert charisma he might be able to temper much of that Joffrey crazy. The real threat to Oris would be Littlefinger.
I think some of what you said earlier in the story would definitely be correct, but I think once Robert dies Stannis would be more involved to protect his nephew. Especially if he knew of the research about the other Lannister kids. He probably would have told Rennly. Also I think Melisandre would be helping Stannis with her vision in the flames. So I don't think Stannis will die. As far as we know Melisandre comes no matter what so even if it gets the point in your story of Rennly vs Stannis shadow son happens and Rennly dies. However I think Mel helps Stannis prevent his nephews death or at the very least has Stannis get himself a position on his nephew's council as Master of War. So if his nephew does die I think he will be closer to take over. Also I don't think Loras convinces Rennly to try to take the throne in this scenario. I think part of the reason Loras was a little more assertive in the original story was because a better opportunity was presented. There was a lot of chaos with the line of succession. However it would be much more clear with Stannis right there and Stannis with his strategic mind would have a plan in place and with Melisadre to help would insure Stannis would take over. So I don't think here Loras would try it because Stannis would be closer if Orys dies. However those are just my thoughts. I think the way you told it was interesting.
Yeah, I was never the biggest fan of Renly either once he decided to go for the throne. I understand why people supported him over Stannis, but he was wrong.
@@gfilmer7150 I thought Renly was being fostered at Highgarden by that point? Regardless, Renly wanting to 'jump the cue', as it were, was a massive mistake, this scenario **&** the show/ books-proper - it divided the Baratheon forces, their potential allies, & weakens their position as a Great House with the rest of the realm- when there's internal dissention there, rather than a united front; reality was, Renly _would_ be Stannis' natural choice of heir - who's going to risk their son marrying Shireen- the greyscale's been arrested, but what evidence does anyone have that it can't 'reactivate' at a later date, to infect someone else? Even if there's proof if can't infect someone else, it's not a good sign. People of this pseudo-medieval world are leery enough over marrying dwarves & scummy Freys- the latter only gets matches because they offer good dowries, & maybe houses are desperate enough to offload a daughter... It was a mistake of Renly to try & jump ahead- & it was a mistake of Stannis to be so unaccountably stubborn over the question of succession to Storms' End. Both needed to accept that Shireen will likely *never* marry, that Selyse is never likely to give Stannis a living son- & that Renly's his only option for an heir of direct Baratheon blood (would Stormlanders accept an adopted Estermont in place of a living prime Baratheon? Probably not). Renly's overweening ambition only works short-term- *_especially_* since he hasn't yet steeled himself for the 'practical application of his function', as it were-- that of producing a further heir for the Baratheon line. A person can only coast so long on personal appeal...
I think things are totally different , like you said I believe Robert would care and be close to his real son , when Cersi says Robert beat his hands bloody on the wall after the boy passed shows how much he cared and loved the boy , he would have shown that boy how to be a man and the boy would be big and strong like Robert and he would not be as babied by Cersi because she wouldn't have the pain and fear of losing a child , I believe the boy would grow to a great prince and I believe Cersi and Roberts relationship is a lot better and so she doesn't run into Jamie's arms , so Robert has a strong warrior son to take over and learn from his hand ned stark and becomes a great ruler and the barathions form a dynasty for a 1,000 years lol
Orys’ Small Council would be Ned as The Hand, Tywin as Master of War/Armies, Stannis as Master of Ships, Varys as Master of Whispers, Little Finger as Master of Coin, Renly as Master of Laws, Grand Maester Pycelle, Ser Barristan if he wants it too.
I think he would have called this child Steffon (after his father). And wouldn't the Riverlands tried to intervene on Sansa's behalf or Brynden Tully (a.k.a. the Blackfish) be Sansa's champion in the trial by combat. Plus if Sansa is framed for killing King Orys, with what reason would Littlefinger tell why Sansa has killed Orys? I mean she wouöd be Queen so why would she be so stupid (especially if he has not given her a reason to kill her, like mistreating her in someway Joffrey did in the show). Explanation please. Oh, and another what if... for you: What if Catelyn for some reason or other kills Littlefinger in King's Landing, before Littlefinger can act the way he acts in the show?
Robert had a natural connection with his true born children than with the other three. He played with them and had a good relationship. From the first instant the incest prince cried in his arms whereas his bastards giggled at his beard
If it was a true born son, then he'd be the heir, no questions asked. If it was a true born daughter, then there might be a possible succession crisis, not just within the Seven Kingdoms, but the succession within the head of House Baratheon. The true born daughter would marry Robb Stark, though the second son from this union would bear the Baratheon name.
I think that you're a bit too pessimistic when it comes to the North stuff. Tyrion isn't a good fighter but he's so high born they wouldn't dare hurt him, and he's so educated he'd make a great asset. Maybe if Aemon dies at the same time ish, he might be sent to train at the citidel. And if the North isn't in a real war, its likely they'd send an army up to help defend the wall against mance.
@@S_047 Purges all the corruption in the realm and court. Gets good, able and honest councillors who he trusts to give him hard truths. Crushes all who would deny him. Teeth ground to dust by age 24, dead by heart attack at age 30.
I remember a conversation between Cersei and i think Tyrion about how her and Jaime beat the odds with their children. The whole every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin idea seems to go towards their incest. So I’m guessing Oris would be much better of a person than Joffrey
11:25 Except Ned most likely wouldn't die that easily in that way, unless he's already being poisoned slowly and is thus weaker. If not, he'd fight back.
I think the biggest thing that I disagree with is the relationship with Orys and Robert, I think that he would see himself in the black haired heir and he would treat him much better then he did with Joffery. I think this boy would have been instructed by the best warriors that Lannister gold could buy and educated in the same fashion. I know this is meant for TV only but think of how well Robert treated his bastards? Imagine how well he would treat someone like him but, with a legal claim to the throne? I could see him being fostered in the north for a time or by Jon Arryan since those men are beloved by Robert. Stannis reminds Robert of his father but, in the books he still had his bastard son being raised in Dragonstone. Orys would probably be the biggest wrench in the Lannister endgame because he would not be as easily manipulated as Joffery who was spoiled and the product of Cersi and Jamie who Cersi loved more than most people. She might not treat this Orys as well knowing that she had him with Robert unless as you stated their way of relating to one another was changed. IF Orys was like Robert I don't know if Cersi would have seen the point to having him killed unless the boy was raised seeing Tywin as a hero figure in which then Tywin could see the use in getting rid of Robert who was in fact bankrupting the Kingdom. In that case, they murder Robert place Orys on the throne, Tywin continues to manipulate him but teaches him how to be a good king as he tried with Tommen. I could see Joffrey's place in things being altered sense hes now further down as heir. Orys would probably be siring a small army of kids with Sansa. Depending how what they do with Joffery he could even be the jealous brother that seeks power. He'd probably be as a foster child to another loyal lord perhaps Kevin. Imagine Orys learning from someone like Sandor Clegane or even Barriston Selmy? Assuming he takes after Robert he'd be a strong sob, I def seen Joffery hating Orys simply because he has hero worship for him and is nothing like him due to him actually being Jamies, what if this humbles Joffery and he becomes a swordsmen?
12:30 I doubt that Tywin would be eligible for the title of Hand when his son, according to your theory, murdered the former Hand of the King. It would be a rather awkward and illogical scenario. Robert would most likely appoint somebody else such as for example Hoster Tully due to their past alliance in the rebellion.
I don't think your theory is incredibly far off, but I also don't think that it would play out that way at all. Robert and Cersei's kid would have been older, around 18 by the time that he was conceived. He might have been only around 16 if they didn't have him right away. Robert wasn't as big of a drunken mess until after his child with Cersei died. I think this changes Robert and it would have made the Orys storyline different. Him being half Lannister would have also made him a bit wiser. With Tywin as hand since Ned would likely die, I don't think Orys would die which takes away the Sansa trial arc. Even if Sansa does go on trial for murder, there is no way the north would let a child go fight for Sansa's honor. I think it'd be someone more like Great John Umber. I also don't believe littlefinger would put Sansa on the line for this either.
Actually, there's a problem as this goes on: The thing that tipped off the run was the hair colors of the children. Here, that's gonna be a PROBLEM. It was one thing before, when you only really had the three, but if you have a Robert/Cersei born child to compare against, that whole thing gets put into the light a lot faster. Rather than lessening the chance of an investigation by Arryn, not only would Arryn start to catch onto it, but multiple people would notice, and start considering it. Basically, sure, Joffrey's blond, stuff happens... and then Myrcella.... and then Tommen.... and here black-haired Oris. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong. A less inebriated Robert, as well, is going to likely be more aware.
Personally...I believe Gendry is the child of Robert and Cersai. Remember she told catelyn that her and Robert's oldest Black haired boy died? Cersa or Jaime i took Gendry into the pits of Gin alley or another place in Kings landing and gave him up. Remember Robert would go hunting and come back to a baby? Nothing for her Jaime and Pycelle to say the baby was stillborn. That'd be the way I played it in the show.
Here's why R+C=G doesn't work... Pretty sure Robert would want to see a body when he got back from his hunt... no body adds another layer of complexity... so for Gendry to be Cersei's, someone would have to go down to Gin Alley to Dead Baby Emporium, get it and then swap said dead baby with living Gendry... then give him to a tavern wench and somehow convince her to raise Gendry as her own without giving her any money to improve her situation. Gendry remembers his mother and that she died when he was young. He says so in both books and show. (Unless those are false memories planted by someone with a glass candle.)
@@guardduvie What was the description of that mother? A beautiful woman with long golden hair. Yeah, it''s Cersei. She never wanted a kid with Robert. She likely ordered him killed, someone ELSE (like Varys or someone else) provided a dead fake out baby while bringing this baby to Flea Bottom, promising riches to the fosters in exchange for raising him (exactly what happened, he was well provided for by the crown).
Robert and cerseis kid did survive. His name would be gendry, given away at a young age so his dark features wouldn't be contradictory to jaimes kids. Gendry remembers only his blonde mother singing to him
I don't know, I mean it's not impossible but I always thought if Robert made an effort, he would be a good Fun Uncle. But who knows? He didn't hate kids and he tried with Mya for awhile.
If Tyrion would be sent to the Wall for killing Ned Stark, they'd send him to Eastwatch by the Sea rather than send him along the King's Road to Castle Black. Tywin would insist on this as he doesn't want to risk the Stark's killing Tyrion in the North. Not so much because he cares for Tyrion, but because he doesn't want the Lannister's to appear weak. The Starks would agree to let Tyrion be shipped to Eastwatch by the Sea because they'd rather not have him anywhere near Winterfell.
For Trial by Combat, the North would have used Great Jon Umber, he is one of the strongest and biggest Northmen and was the best fighter in the North. Tyrion would have still met Bronn, as Tyrion wanted to visit the wall either way, so they meet up in that Inn still. Ned would probably not become hand of the King as Jon Arryn would have no reason to try and find out about the Bastards of Jamie Lannister, as there is no suspicion, if Ned did become hand of the King, then he probably would just serve and not try to find out about the Bastards, so Ned doesn’t get arrested or executed, and he would serve Orys when Robert dies. The Lannisters pushing Brann would still happen, and Carleton would anger the Lannisters, but Ned would try to figure something out that didn’t lead to war, Ned would still get injured, and Robb would still begin the war with the Lannisters, but the war would not go on that long, or wouldn’t happen at all. Orys as King would try to stop the war, or use the Boratheon army which was around 60,000 soldiers as known from the battle of the Blackwater, they would be equal to the Lannister army. Bran’s fate is Destiny, he was going to be crippled by a Lannister one way or another, and he would find the Three Eyed crow. Stannis wouldn’t attack the Black Water as Stannis has no reason to think the Boratheon children are Bastards, the main focus would become Daenarys and he army, and with all of Westeros focusing on her, I don’t think she lives very long, I believe Jamie will face an even that changes his ways, see in the books many characters fates are almost like a Destiny, Ned’s murder makes no sense, Littlefinger isn’t a very good fighter or assassin, and Ned is very suspicious of him, and a great fighter too, also he has at least 2 guards at the door. Littlefinger would get caught and most likely get killed, Littfinger always played his cards with high risk, so he would finally lose his gamble. These are jsut my thought, but I think you did a good job.
I really think Joffrey would’ve been a jealous little sh!t being the second born and I think Cersei would have shown a lot of favoritism towards Joffrey.
This makes me wonder what the dynamic between the true born Baratheon son and the Lannister children, and with Cersei and Jamie. Does she really love all her children or is it just because Jamie is the father. I remember what she said about your first boy or something so maybe she’d still live him just as much as Joffrey
Here's how I think it would go: Robert keeps himself in better shape and state, as Cersei mentions he seemed to love her and such when she was pregnant with his child, and is better to Cersei, as she gave him a son. But Cersei still does Jaime, because Robert would still never leave Lyanna in his thoughts. Now with Joffrey 2nd in line, things will be better, and Robert may even want him fostered in the north, as likely his son is everything Robert wants, and he'll know Ned has a oldest son too, he wants to do the vale again for his kid. However, when he comes to the north after Jon Arryn dies since 3 kids still illegitimate and Jon isn't dumb, he will want his eldest son married to Sansa, since it will join the houses. There is no ruby ford since his son will spend time with Sansa and not assault a butchers boy, so the direwolves won't die/ be released yet. Robert dies of poisoning, and Ned will back roberts son since he will see clearly he's a true son of Robert. Now Roberts son who will be as old as Robb or Theon is much more competent then Joffrey, and will order the nonsense of Tywin burning the riverlands to cease, Ned will help end the conflict. Stannis and Renly likely still try and declare king as Cersei did cuck the king, and plot to have him killed, and 3/4 of the royal house are bastards of incest. Joffrey will attempt to assasinate his brother since he is jealous of him for in his eyes: -Having the love and attention of father -having a beautiful bride for queen - Being better in things like sword fighting and such. The Starks may even have to be buddy buddy with the lannisters since they are now kin by marriage and even though Ned knows what the queen and her brother did and that the children bar one are not legitimate, the son is the rightul king and is a far better man then Joffrey is, so Ned will want him to be king. It would be hilarious to see Tywin and Robb interacting, especially when he sees Robb fighting and commanding men with very good tactics while a giant direwolf fights on his side, he would probably wish Robb was his son because of how good he is at battles, and try and get Myrcella bethrothed to him. -Cersei and Ned having a tense thing where Ned knows what she'd done but can't do anything and she knows that too but is oddly impressed by him.
A HUGE clue is what she says about his bastards and how he warmed to them as they giggled and loved him instantly whereas Joffers screamed whenever he held him etc. Basically he gave up on Jof as he didn't look or act like him. He never warmed to cerseis kids as they didn't look like him, even when Joffrey harmed those animals "like a psychopath" it was done to impress his hunter father who then twatted him and nearly killed him. He made Joffrey so much worse with the neglect.
Their lives are messed up. Rhaegar is the one who started all the mess, the moment he ran away with lyanna. In any scenario, they are now deal with any lords who wants revenge over the death of their loved ones, done by him and his mad father
Cersei said herself, the day she walked out of the sept, her hand in the Kings hand, was the one moment where she genuinely felt happy. After that he became a glutton. Personally I think the better story would've been cersei and rhaegar, Jaime is pissed either way but I reckon she'd have actually loved rhaegar, whether from duty or genuine love.
I think that if Orys was a part of got (and looked like that) Robert would love him and he would be a good father to him and Orys would be the apple of everyone's eyes in king's landing pretty much because he'd be strong and fun like Robert and very charismatic and handsome, he might have a great relationship with Renly which later on Renly would destroy by listening to loras Tyrell and he would regret it. Jon Arryn would be very fond of him. Ned Stark upon meeting him would immediately be reminded of a young Robert Baratheon. I think littlefinger would constantly try to spite Joeffery who would already be jealous of Orys, Joeffery would try to kill Orys. Orys would have a great relationship with Tommen and Myrcella. Orys would be a very good swordsman and that would make Tywin, Tyrion and even Jamie very proud/impressed because Joeffery would still not be good at any of that. I think that if Orys was killed, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei and Jamie would figure out who did it. I think that Orys would be a well liked person, both by Lannisters and everyone else. And about Robert loving him, I think he'd love him because he'd just feel differently about Orys, he'd feel a much deeper connection than he did with the others. I also think that Orys would become friends with Robb, Jon and Theon if he went to the north with his father. And I think if Sansa was blamed for his murder, the Starks would not just be upset by that but also by the fact that Orys died because they'd like Orys very much so they'd know that something is off, Littlefinger would feed them lies, he would feed the Lannisters lies and Cersei would believe these lies, Jamie would be trying to understand what is the truth, Tywin would be very angry because he'd love Orys a lot as his first grandchild who's also pretty amazing at most things, Tywin would be willing to destroy anyone that is related to the murder but it would actually be Tyrion who would figure out that Sansa didn't murder Orys, someone else did, Littlefinger would free Sansa and he would stay back. He'd try to make sure that Joeffery makes poor decisions. Tyrion would still be on the case, who killed Orys and he'd keep figuring out, Littlefinger and Olena would murder joffrey and Tyrion would be accused and the same thing would happen as the show, varys would free him. Sansa would be on the run though. Varys and Tyrion would go to Dany. Eventually Tyrion would figure out that littlefinger killed orys. The Starks and the Lannisters wouldn't go to war but they'd hate each other because the Starks wouldn't know if Sansa is alive or not and Lannisters would believe that she killed orys. When Dany comes, she'd have the support of the Starks unless Bran tells everyone that Jon is a Targareyan and Catelyn Stark would be extremely shocked, Robb and all Catelyn and theon would tell Jon that the iron throne belongs to him and he will refuse which Robb would respect and so would Catelyn although she'd think that it's his he deserves it but she'd not say anything but theon would and Tyrion would know so would varys and their fates would be the same. Danaerys would as usual do the dumb thing to kl but Jon would be made king by the end, not Bran, Bran would have a position on the council, so would tyrion, Sam, etc. North would be an independent kingdom. The Riverlands would belong to the tullys, the vale to the arryns and lf would get killed because tyrion as soon as he gets there would tell cat and Robb everything, Bran would confirm and littlefinger would be killed. Sansa would have her own story but she'd get home by then. The Starks really did love Orys so it would hit them more because their son in law was killed and daughter exiled. The west would be Tyrion's. Basically Jon would have allies everywhere, Riverlands, west, vale, north. P.s. I think that we'd get a few scenes of father son bonding if orys was a part of the story, like I can see Robert being like this kid is the only reason I've not gone crazy and I think that cersei seeing their relationship would postpone killing Robert as much as possible, it would be very interesting to see that an actual good person would treat the people so differently and would be treated so much better. I really do think that he'd be very well liked by almost everyone but we'd always see Joeffery being jealous or manipulative. So when he'd be killed, everyone really would want the killer dead.
Here's my challenge for a good vídeo. What if Tywin Lannister defended King's Landing after the Battle of the Trident? What would change with Jaime (kingslayer stuff), Cersei (never would have married Robert), Oberyn (Elya wouldn't be killed by the Mountain) and with House Lannister and the rebels
Great video. Please do WHAT IF: Cersei married Oberyn. A betrothal was in the works before Joanna died but after she died, Tywin threw out the negotiations.
I don't think Cersei is ever going to be married to a second son of any kind. Before the rebellion, there's no particular advantage to an alliance with Dorne. The Martells are grasping much higher than their situation really allows for. Sure Oberyn is a prince, but he is heir to nothing. If Tyrion had not been born a dwarf, then perhaps Tywin would have been able to offer a match with him without making it an insult. A surviving Joanna would have also been able to smooth the situation over better.
@@guardduvie im aware of all of that. the backstory is Joanna and the Princess of Dorne were besties and they wanted to cement that with a marriage. Elia was too old for Jaime or else that would have been the deal
What if 1. Jaime Lannister isn't Kingsgaurd 2. Aerys Burned them all 3. Rheaghar Never Loved Lyanna, Robert married Lyanna 4. Robert chose stannis as Hand ✋ instead of Ned
If stannis became hand after jon arryns death... 1..relieve the 7 kings guards...(see barriston selmy rips off his armor...tosses his sword at stannis and walks off thanking the gods that he wasn't beheaded or burned at a stake...and runs off to essos to help...wait a minnnuuuttteee 2..name ser Davos master of ships.. 3.. introduce westeros to the lord of light(thoros was too drunk to do it) 4..outlaw the brothels 5..Round up all of the thieves and ser Davos them 6..name davos's son Mathis a kingsguard.. 7.. outlaw the king's and hand's tournament...why have tournaments when you can start your own real battles 8..outlaw public drunkenness 9..appoint Melisandra as high septa.. Robert would care less...he'd be off fucking boars and killing hoars...or is it the other way around????? 10...puts varys baylish...cercai@jamie..pycell all to the sword.heads on spikes...burned at the stake .
Another amazing video I love your videos do you still eventually plan to tackle my suggestion on bran escaping Jamie’s push after witnessing teincist totally up to you
If this is based on show logic then I think Varys would be loyal to Oris. Oris is a good person and that’s all show Varys wanted. If he’s loyal to Oris then I don’t think he lets Litter Finger cause all this trouble and would try to expose him to Oris
That's a very fair point! Varys really just wanted the best for Westeros, or at minimum a good person. It's a tough call since we saw the extremes of it all with Varys, but I could see it going either way!
I think the kid may have been named Lyannus. Obviously Cersei would pitch a fit, but Robert would just be booming "I am the King, my will be done! Lyannus he shall be. Accept it, or I'll honour you again."
Daenerys undead dragon is the reason the wall is breached and the walkers even get south when they do. There's no telling how much longer the wall itself could've kept the night king and his army out otherwise
I actually think it would take less than Dany's dragons to get past the Wall - I always assumed there was magic protecting it (which was broken when the NK touched Bran), but I suppose that's more speculation than fact ::sigh::
I don’t think Littlefinger would let Sansa die but somehow make sure Robb came to give Sansa away in marriage and set Robb up as murdering the king and manipulating Sansa into believing it. As far as Joff not being a sociopath or not being spoiled by Cersei? I’m not sure that would’ve changed since Cersei would still treasure him since he’s Cersei and Jamie’s first born and looks like them (she’s a narcissist after all). Plus I’m not sure Joff isn’t inherently a sociopath due to dna issues etc. This is all assuming that Joff didn’t murder his older brother at some point after Robert died.
Also, the king coming north later means that Benjin has already gone ranging in search of Royce and may be already overdue back. Also Jon wouldn't have been sent to the wall yet
I think the Hound would still be around, because in this scenario there would be no battle at blackwater, because if the heir is legitimate, Stannis would have no desire to attack Kings Landing, since he was always a duty bound bro. He only started to rise up when Ned told him Joffrey was illegitimated. The Hound just would have been the real king's "guard dog", or maybe still Joffrey's, either way, he basically would have just...been there.
One thing you missed; the only reason Catelyn stayed at Winterfell was to be with Bran. In this timeline she would have gone to Kings Landing with the the family.
I think Joffery would have always turned out as a monster regardless if he was born first or not, as he clearly showed signs as a child (killing cats).
He killed the cats with the goal to impress Bobby, though.
@@dabestestgoblin8495 yeah didn’t he slice open a pregnant cat and take out the babies?
He'd probably be worse getting less attention than before
@@durrangodsgrief6503 Agreed
@@dabestestgoblin8495 Still would not have changed anything. Kid was a lost cause.
What if Tywin was a minute later busting into the throne room to declare victory and Cersei actually poisoned Tommen thinking it would be Stannis?
That would be fucking hilarious.
@@sinistertwister686 that would be fucking hilarious
@@sinistertwister686 that would be fucking hilarious
that would be fucking hilarious@@sinistertwister686
that would be fucking hilarious@@sinistertwister686
Stannis wouldn’t be King, but he’d make a good Hand.
Ooooooohhh facts!
@@Theprofessionalfrabric And he be a good Hand. There’s be so much progress despite so much drama at the court.
I don’t think so. Cersei would do her very best to make sure, her father be the hand of the king.
@@Brandonhayhew She would but I was just saying if Stannis were Hand, he’d be a good one.
@@gfilmer7150 stannis would be a good of the king, is still plausible, if Robert had wed someone else? We both know lannister are always power hungry.
I can imagine Orys as a pretty cool dude. He has the warrior blood of the Baratheons, their size and strength. He has their happiness (Stannis is an exception lmao) and their easiness in making friends. But at the same time, he has the Lannister blood. He’s ruthless, ambitious, cunning, cold and silent when necessary, intelligent and willing to do anything for his house and family.
And I know; He’s both cold *and* happy? Well it’s more of a, he can choose between them. Like when someone tests him by insulting him and shit, he won’t go Bobby B and smash them, but more of a Tywin, crushing them with words and then later having them completelly destroyed. So he’s not as hot blooded as most Baratheons. But when he’s at parties, he’s not brooding like Stannis and Tywin. He parties hard and celebrates with the many people he befriends.
Honestly King Orys I Baratheon, would be fucking amazing
He'd be enough of a good man to be a beloved king and enough of a heartless bastard to be a strong one.
GRRM seems to have a consistent pattern of foiling any archetypical alpha-male characters and ensuring they do not rise higher than the meek+honorable or intellectual male characters
I like how you basically described Alexander The Great
@@maloneaquaRobert literally became king
That's not how genetics work
I don't think little finger would let Sansa die, she reminded him of her mother. he would find a way to get her out or would not frame her at all. That would change things.
well at this point catelyn is still alive, so i don't think he'll have any affection for Sansa
@@alexandertsvetkov8571 Well Sansa would have been a much better investment for him than Cat. She was pretty and younger, so she could have definitely given him children. Cat was a little up in age at that point and already was a mother of 5 (so her children would still be a main priority of hers). More importantly, Sansa was easily to manipulate.
I don't understand why he married her off to the Boltons in the show (especially since he already had Sansa in the palm of his hands at that point. He should have taken her for himself.
Agreed, he'd keep her alive for Catelyn's sake, probably as a hostage or make her join the faith of the seven or something like that
@@alexandertsvetkov8571 That's where I was coming from basically...if Catelyn is still around, Sansa isn't as important to him. Catelyn was what it was always about.
My guess ahead of watching: they would have still had a toxic family dynamic, but without Ned being able to proclaim the crown prince's bastardy, he could have focused on helping them get their shit together.
FR Robert should have named Supernanny his hand
Actually you sort of nailed the part with Ned's focus on helping
I really feel like the North wouldn’t have Robb as their champion in a trial by combat. I guess it’s plausible but there’s so many better options and I think even Sansa would know that. I also doubt she’d risk her brother like that.
Imagine Greatjon vs the Mountain. Or Barristan, either way. But the size of that matchup…
I agree. Ned recently died, Robb was prepared his whole life to take over being the heir apparent, so the transition would be smoother but it wouldn't be settled yet, she wouldn't risk thrusting the position onto Bran who wasn't prepared for it in any way and having the North destabilised further from going through two lord protectors in a matter of months
Given the assumptions in this storyline, I guess Aria would still have been trained by Syrio Forel, and at some point, Sansa would have found out. Also, there‘s no reason why he shouldn‘t still be alive.
And this would make him an excellent choice as a champion for her, making the outcome of the fight far less obvious, if not even turning the odds *against* Barristan, which again would change more or less *everything* that comes after in this „What If“ thought experiment.
Her uncle Benjen would be a good pick. Commander Mormont knowing what he's facing would let him borrow longclaw. Benjen would fight in light armour much like Bron did and with a light sword would make for a good fight.
If he can't be released then Littlefinger might suggest her Aunty send a knight from the vale like Bronze yohn. Once in king's landing two riders from Starfall turn up and declare that because her father returned the sword "dawn" to them its sworn to protect any Stark from harm until it has a new owner and Bronze wins with it.
that would be fucking hilarious
Margaery and Olenna are clever- if she gets to the Iron Throne they’ll listen even it comes to beyond the wall, just depends if their armies are enough…
They're clever, but just their grounded nature in reality is probably what will prevent them from listening to beyond the Wall stuff. Tyrion didn't really believe it for a while, either. I mean - who would, right?
@@TheBattProductionsi honestly think the show could have done without the white walkers
@@emusaurus I suppose. I mean it's tough to do it without them but I can't say they brought anything that made me happy to the story
I don't think Cercsi would be as crazy protective of her children if she never lost her firstborn. Also I think Bronn would still stick around cause Tyrion and still showed up at the Inn and met Bronn.Brown. Also with the Starks still in Winterfell the North would help defend the wall from the wildings
I mean the prophecy would be heavy
Good thoughts on Bronn - I have to disagree, but it's certainly not outlandish!
I think Cersei's nuts over her kids no matter what personally, but the prophecy probably does play a factor.
Well she killed her firstborn so
Was the first born Barathoen even real or was that lie she told Caitlin
Late, but Cersei never wanted children with Robb. She drank moon tea like crazy to miscarry her first pregnancy.
If only Brandon Stark had finished Littlefinger during their dual.
Here's a what if scenario, What if Robert Baratheon died of his wounds after the Battle of the Trident.
Go and finds to read fanfics.
Brandon killing littfinger. In the end, Robert would still be pissed that his cousin stolen, his to be wife.
Hmm...wouldn't Ned claim the iron throne in his stead then? I think that might be the most likely scenario since Ned would honor his death that way.
@@ivagav02 Med would give Iron throne to his brothers stannis , a king nobody wants
@@Brandonhayhew Yeah that sounds more likely, now that you mention it. Since Ned would never really want the iron throne even if he was forced to take it.
I think Robert is an absentee father regardless of his child's hair color. He'll continue to be selfish and disinterested in Cersei. I think the change will be in how Cersei treats the child... which would be with contempt as it would remind her of Robert. Part of the root of Joffrey's awfulness comes from Cersei feeding his eventual narcissism with how beautiful and perfect he is. She spoiled him. (Another part would come from being inbred.) If a trueborn child is born, he may develop a well placed distrust of his mother and her motives. If Cersei continues to have sex with Jaime, then she'll likely produce pure Lannister children which may contrast enough with her trueborn child to bring their parentage into doubt. If she has children by Jaime, Cersei will know who fathered it, so she's going to act upon this in some way.
that would be fucking hilarious
that would be fucking hilarious
that would be fucking hilarious
that would be fucking hilarious
that would be fucking hilarious
What if daenerys didn't burn kings landing
What if the valyrian freehold conquered westeros
What if the tragedy of summerhall never happened
What if Robert found out about jon snow's parentage
What if the assassin killed Catelyn and Bran
What if stannis sided with aerys in Robert's rebellion
It was necessary
I like the Summerhall one
I want the what if Robert found out Jon's snow parentage. That one is awesome and changes EVERYTHING
In the books: Queen Cersei did got once got by King Robert. She aborted the child by drinking Moon tea.
Let's assume in this scenario, Robert didn't piss her off enough to do that.
@@katherinealvarez9216 Remember what Cersei told Ned. Robert whispered to Cersei’s ear about Ned’s sister’s name
@@katherinealvarez9216 wasn’t really pissed off, I think it was because they couldn’t have a black haired kid be born, because then people would think something was wrong
I love it when Cersei thinks to Robert "I eat your heirs while you sleep". It's so conniving and sinister and Cersei
@@made-line7627 Martin, sure knows how to make a good villains
Hey! Glad your back!
What if King Robert Baratheon had Mycella marry Robb Stark instead of Joffrey and Sansa?
I think
Lady and Nymeria would have survived
I don't think that match would be offered because it's not as much of an honor... Giving the hand of the heir is a great way to command future loyalty to the crown. Offering Myrcella, who has no claim to anything, isn't really helping Ned with anything... it just takes away an opportunity to make a match with a vassal house.
That's SUPER interesting! I love that. I'm glad to see you Rosani...you've been around here for some long!
@@TheBattProductions
Glad to see you back too!❤️
@@TheBattProductions
How about a what if the Starks were werewolves and the targaryens Weredragons? It would make for a very interesting what-if and it would completely change this story of Game of Thrones, you could even make the Lannisters into vampires
Ned would be super protective of Orys. He wouldn’t do anything to rock the boat so he could ensure there’s no shenanigans.
Man, thats a great scenario. I never really thought about it. Robert and Cersei had a great scene in the show that makes me want them as a power couple.
YES exactly!!! Could've been such a cool couple.
Still got my list:
What If: Robb campaigned for The Iron Throne?
What If Quellon Greyjoy didn’t die at the Battle of The Mandor?
What If Young Griff was in the show?
What If Baelor “The Blessed” didn’t die and tried to convert Westeros to The Seven?
What If Ned was smart and sent his daughters to Dragonstone before he tried to arrest Joffrey and Cersei?
What If Stannis died at The Battle of Blackwater?
What If Ygritte was taken prisoner and not killed at The Battle of Castle Black?
What If Bittersteel became King instead of Daeron?
What If Haegon Blackfyre and Bittersteel won The Third Blackfyre Rebellion?
What If The Blackfyres built their own empire in Essos instead of campaigning for Westeros (similar to Daenerys)?
What If Brienne took Stannis to The Night’s Watch instead of executing him?
What If Ser Dennis Mallister won The Night’s Watch election?
What If Lysa Arryn joined Robb?
What If Lysa Arryn joined Stannis (Robin marries Shireen)?
What If Stannis waited for The Wildlings like Davos suggested?
If Cersei was prego with Oris , that might have affected the conception time of Joffrey , maybe Joffrey was never born and the next in line would be tommen .
Joffrey was born 2 years after Orys, he literally mentions it in the video.
His name would be Eddard, lets not kid ourselves.
I love That
@@kingjay6613 Robert loved Eddard more then Lyanna.
While this is absolutely amazing there are two small things you forgot.
If Sansa (who would be of age by this time) Married Orys- and he was king then there would be kings guard they’d know she was innocent. And the girl can’t lie yet.
2) she’d still have Lady. Arya would still have Nymeria. Because THAT was due to Joff being a little psycho and mommy wouldn’t need to call for Lady’s death.
The rest of this I would read this fanfic in a heart beat. Omfg.
I have to have a disagree about the scorpion,
Jorah was distracted by barristan selmy so if he wasn’t there Jorah Mormont would’ve successfully protected Daenerys,
You keep forgetting about that detail.
But Jorah died he couldn’t protect Dani .
@@Ghost-304
Why would he be died?
@@Ghost-304
Seriously? Did you *NOT* watch the video or something?
What if Tyrion ran away and escaped on the horse instead of saving Caitlin on the way to the vail
The Starks would definitely not have one of their future head lords fight in a trial by combat, Great Jon Umber or somebody else.
I love the idea of him just saying "Hi I'm Orys" every time he goes somewhere.
HE NEEDS TO LET THEM KNOW!...heh.
The Oris - Joffrey relatonship would be key. If Oris has any of the Robert charisma he might be able to temper much of that Joffrey crazy. The real threat to Oris would be Littlefinger.
I think some of what you said earlier in the story would definitely be correct, but I think once Robert dies Stannis would be more involved to protect his nephew. Especially if he knew of the research about the other Lannister kids. He probably would have told Rennly. Also I think Melisandre would be helping Stannis with her vision in the flames. So I don't think Stannis will die. As far as we know Melisandre comes no matter what so even if it gets the point in your story of Rennly vs Stannis shadow son happens and Rennly dies. However I think Mel helps Stannis prevent his nephews death or at the very least has Stannis get himself a position on his nephew's council as Master of War. So if his nephew does die I think he will be closer to take over. Also I don't think Loras convinces Rennly to try to take the throne in this scenario. I think part of the reason Loras was a little more assertive in the original story was because a better opportunity was presented. There was a lot of chaos with the line of succession. However it would be much more clear with Stannis right there and Stannis with his strategic mind would have a plan in place and with Melisadre to help would insure Stannis would take over. So I don't think here Loras would try it because Stannis would be closer if Orys dies. However those are just my thoughts. I think the way you told it was interesting.
Yeah, I was never the biggest fan of Renly either once he decided to go for the throne. I understand why people supported him over Stannis, but he was wrong.
@@paragon1172000 He betrayed the brother that kept him alive during a siege.
@@gfilmer7150
I thought Renly was being fostered at Highgarden by that point?
Regardless, Renly wanting to 'jump the cue', as it were, was a massive mistake, this scenario **&** the show/ books-proper - it divided the Baratheon forces, their potential allies, & weakens their position as a Great House with the rest of the realm- when there's internal dissention there, rather than a united front; reality was, Renly _would_ be Stannis' natural choice of heir - who's going to risk their son marrying Shireen- the greyscale's been arrested, but what evidence does anyone have that it can't 'reactivate' at a later date, to infect someone else?
Even if there's proof if can't infect someone else, it's not a good sign. People of this pseudo-medieval world are leery enough over marrying dwarves & scummy Freys- the latter only gets matches because they offer good dowries, & maybe houses are desperate enough to offload a daughter...
It was a mistake of Renly to try & jump ahead- & it was a mistake of Stannis to be so unaccountably stubborn over the question of succession to Storms' End.
Both needed to accept that Shireen will likely *never* marry, that Selyse is never likely to give Stannis a living son- & that Renly's his only option for an heir of direct Baratheon blood (would Stormlanders accept an adopted Estermont in place of a living prime Baratheon? Probably not).
Renly's overweening ambition only works short-term- *_especially_* since he hasn't yet steeled himself for the 'practical application of his function', as it were-- that of producing a further heir for the Baratheon line. A person can only coast so long on personal appeal...
@@OcarinaSapphr- Where does everyone keep getting this idea that he was fostered a Highgarden?
@@gfilmer7150
Was he not?
Seriously! I'm so glad you're back to creating content. You were one of the first UA-camrs I watched.
I think things are totally different , like you said I believe Robert would care and be close to his real son , when Cersi says Robert beat his hands bloody on the wall after the boy passed shows how much he cared and loved the boy , he would have shown that boy how to be a man and the boy would be big and strong like Robert and he would not be as babied by Cersi because she wouldn't have the pain and fear of losing a child , I believe the boy would grow to a great prince and I believe Cersi and Roberts relationship is a lot better and so she doesn't run into Jamie's arms , so Robert has a strong warrior son to take over and learn from his hand ned stark and becomes a great ruler and the barathions form a dynasty for a 1,000 years lol
Orys’ Small Council would be Ned as The Hand, Tywin as Master of War/Armies, Stannis as Master of Ships, Varys as Master of Whispers, Little Finger as Master of Coin, Renly as Master of Laws, Grand Maester Pycelle, Ser Barristan if he wants it too.
I think that'd be a wonderful Small Council
@@TheBattProductionsYes it would be
I think he would have called this child Steffon (after his father). And wouldn't the Riverlands tried to intervene on Sansa's behalf or Brynden Tully (a.k.a. the Blackfish) be Sansa's champion in the trial by combat. Plus if Sansa is framed for killing King Orys, with what reason would Littlefinger tell why Sansa has killed Orys? I mean she wouöd be Queen so why would she be so stupid (especially if he has not given her a reason to kill her, like mistreating her in someway Joffrey did in the show). Explanation please. Oh, and another what if... for you: What if Catelyn for some reason or other kills Littlefinger in King's Landing, before Littlefinger can act the way he acts in the show?
Robert had a natural connection with his true born children than with the other three. He played with them and had a good relationship. From the first instant the incest prince cried in his arms whereas his bastards giggled at his beard
If it was a true born son, then he'd be the heir, no questions asked.
If it was a true born daughter, then there might be a possible succession crisis, not just within the Seven Kingdoms, but the succession within the head of House Baratheon. The true born daughter would marry Robb Stark, though the second son from this union would bear the Baratheon name.
I think that you're a bit too pessimistic when it comes to the North stuff. Tyrion isn't a good fighter but he's so high born they wouldn't dare hurt him, and he's so educated he'd make a great asset. Maybe if Aemon dies at the same time ish, he might be sent to train at the citidel. And if the North isn't in a real war, its likely they'd send an army up to help defend the wall against mance.
"Banging like a pair of overused cymbals in a marching band"
me - pulls a Sean Bean character and dies.
Hahahahahahahahhahaah
I was waiting for someone to mention this...
What if...Robert died from his wounds at the Trident and Stannis had to do his duty and take over the throne?
A fim but just law. Definitely lots of teeth grinding dealing with court and fools
@@S_047
Purges all the corruption in the realm and court. Gets good, able and honest councillors who he trusts to give him hard truths. Crushes all who would deny him. Teeth ground to dust by age 24, dead by heart attack at age 30.
@@realdaggerman105 lemon traders will have a lot of buisness with him
Please keep doing these long indepth what ifs, love em
Why wouldn’t Cersei use the mountain? Also why would they wait weeks for Rob to come down to kings landing …
Haven't even watched it and already dropped a like
I remember a conversation between Cersei and i think Tyrion about how her and Jaime beat the odds with their children. The whole every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin idea seems to go towards their incest. So I’m guessing Oris would be much better of a person than Joffrey
11:25 Except Ned most likely wouldn't die that easily in that way, unless he's already being poisoned slowly and is thus weaker. If not, he'd fight back.
So glad these vids are back!!
Been waiting for this brother 😁
I think the biggest thing that I disagree with is the relationship with Orys and Robert, I think that he would see himself in the black haired heir and he would treat him much better then he did with Joffery. I think this boy would have been instructed by the best warriors that Lannister gold could buy and educated in the same fashion. I know this is meant for TV only but think of how well Robert treated his bastards? Imagine how well he would treat someone like him but, with a legal claim to the throne? I could see him being fostered in the north for a time or by Jon Arryan since those men are beloved by Robert.
Stannis reminds Robert of his father but, in the books he still had his bastard son being raised in Dragonstone. Orys would probably be the biggest wrench in the Lannister endgame because he would not be as easily manipulated as Joffery who was spoiled and the product of Cersi and Jamie who Cersi loved more than most people. She might not treat this Orys as well knowing that she had him with Robert unless as you stated their way of relating to one another was changed. IF Orys was like Robert I don't know if Cersi would have seen the point to having him killed unless the boy was raised seeing Tywin as a hero figure in which then Tywin could see the use in getting rid of Robert who was in fact bankrupting the Kingdom.
In that case, they murder Robert place Orys on the throne, Tywin continues to manipulate him but teaches him how to be a good king as he tried with Tommen. I could see Joffrey's place in things being altered sense hes now further down as heir. Orys would probably be siring a small army of kids with Sansa. Depending how what they do with Joffery he could even be the jealous brother that seeks power. He'd probably be as a foster child to another loyal lord perhaps Kevin. Imagine Orys learning from someone like Sandor Clegane or even Barriston Selmy? Assuming he takes after Robert he'd be a strong sob, I def seen Joffery hating Orys simply because he has hero worship for him and is nothing like him due to him actually being Jamies, what if this humbles Joffery and he becomes a swordsmen?
12:30 I doubt that Tywin would be eligible for the title of Hand when his son, according to your theory, murdered the former Hand of the King. It would be a rather awkward and illogical scenario. Robert would most likely appoint somebody else such as for example Hoster Tully due to their past alliance in the rebellion.
I don't think your theory is incredibly far off, but I also don't think that it would play out that way at all. Robert and Cersei's kid would have been older, around 18 by the time that he was conceived. He might have been only around 16 if they didn't have him right away. Robert wasn't as big of a drunken mess until after his child with Cersei died. I think this changes Robert and it would have made the Orys storyline different. Him being half Lannister would have also made him a bit wiser. With Tywin as hand since Ned would likely die, I don't think Orys would die which takes away the Sansa trial arc. Even if Sansa does go on trial for murder, there is no way the north would let a child go fight for Sansa's honor. I think it'd be someone more like Great John Umber. I also don't believe littlefinger would put Sansa on the line for this either.
Actually, there's a problem as this goes on: The thing that tipped off the run was the hair colors of the children. Here, that's gonna be a PROBLEM. It was one thing before, when you only really had the three, but if you have a Robert/Cersei born child to compare against, that whole thing gets put into the light a lot faster. Rather than lessening the chance of an investigation by Arryn, not only would Arryn start to catch onto it, but multiple people would notice, and start considering it.
Basically, sure, Joffrey's blond, stuff happens... and then Myrcella.... and then Tommen.... and here black-haired Oris. One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong. A less inebriated Robert, as well, is going to likely be more aware.
I still love these GoT what ifs
What if Viserys was fire-proof and survived Khal Drogo's execution?
I think he made a video on that
Drogo would just start pouring down his throat. Fire might not kill dragons, but suffocation kills dragons AND fires coincidentally.
His arm got broken. I doubt he be able to run, and he still be a prisoner. No way Dany, wouldn’t care about what will happen to him?
Personally...I believe Gendry is the child of Robert and Cersai. Remember she told catelyn that her and Robert's oldest Black haired boy died? Cersa or Jaime i took Gendry into the pits of Gin alley or another place in Kings landing and gave him up. Remember Robert would go hunting and come back to a baby? Nothing for her Jaime and Pycelle to say the baby was stillborn. That'd be the way I played it in the show.
Here's why R+C=G doesn't work... Pretty sure Robert would want to see a body when he got back from his hunt... no body adds another layer of complexity... so for Gendry to be Cersei's, someone would have to go down to Gin Alley to Dead Baby Emporium, get it and then swap said dead baby with living Gendry... then give him to a tavern wench and somehow convince her to raise Gendry as her own without giving her any money to improve her situation. Gendry remembers his mother and that she died when he was young. He says so in both books and show. (Unless those are false memories planted by someone with a glass candle.)
@@guardduvie What was the description of that mother? A beautiful woman with long golden hair. Yeah, it''s Cersei. She never wanted a kid with Robert. She likely ordered him killed, someone ELSE (like Varys or someone else) provided a dead fake out baby while bringing this baby to Flea Bottom, promising riches to the fosters in exchange for raising him (exactly what happened, he was well provided for by the crown).
@@courtneylconover80 there's a couple of issues with that.
Robert and cerseis kid did survive. His name would be gendry, given away at a young age so his dark features wouldn't be contradictory to jaimes kids. Gendry remembers only his blonde mother singing to him
I think the biggest problem with your premise is tjat Gendry, I mean Orys, is going to be the single biggest piece of evidence for twincest.
Imagine Orys having a personaliy like Loras Tyrell, kind of a brat and Prideful but honorable and kind to his family.
I always thought I would be cool if the baby was revived and was raised elsewhere without them knowing
I don't know, I mean it's not impossible but I always thought if Robert made an effort, he would be a good Fun Uncle.
But who knows? He didn't hate kids and he tried with Mya for awhile.
Here's a suggestion: What if Ser Alliser Thorne is elected Lord Commander instead of Jon Snow
this is a good one
If Tyrion would be sent to the Wall for killing Ned Stark, they'd send him to Eastwatch by the Sea rather than send him along the King's Road to Castle Black. Tywin would insist on this as he doesn't want to risk the Stark's killing Tyrion in the North. Not so much because he cares for Tyrion, but because he doesn't want the Lannister's to appear weak. The Starks would agree to let Tyrion be shipped to Eastwatch by the Sea because they'd rather not have him anywhere near Winterfell.
The little finger impersonation was the best part of the video 😂
What if Knights of the Vale joined in the war of five kings
what if daemon completely missed his landing on vhagar when he killed me
He still be able to injure you in other ways. He was a veteran of the steppe stone war
What if Jon Snow accepted Stannis' offer to become King in the North?
What if Alister Thorne was elected lord commander of the Night's Watch?
Most importantly, *Lady gets to live*
AND THAT'S WHAT I NEED TO SEE!
For Trial by Combat, the North would have used Great Jon Umber, he is one of the strongest and biggest Northmen and was the best fighter in the North.
Tyrion would have still met Bronn, as Tyrion wanted to visit the wall either way, so they meet up in that Inn still.
Ned would probably not become hand of the King as Jon Arryn would have no reason to try and find out about the Bastards of Jamie Lannister, as there is no suspicion, if Ned did become hand of the King, then he probably would just serve and not try to find out about the Bastards, so Ned doesn’t get arrested or executed, and he would serve Orys when Robert dies. The Lannisters pushing Brann would still happen, and Carleton would anger the Lannisters, but Ned would try to figure something out that didn’t lead to war, Ned would still get injured, and Robb would still begin the war with the Lannisters, but the war would not go on that long, or wouldn’t happen at all. Orys as King would try to stop the war, or use the Boratheon army which was around 60,000 soldiers as known from the battle of the Blackwater, they would be equal to the Lannister army. Bran’s fate is Destiny, he was going to be crippled by a Lannister one way or another, and he would find the Three Eyed crow. Stannis wouldn’t attack the Black Water as Stannis has no reason to think the Boratheon children are Bastards, the main focus would become Daenarys and he army, and with all of Westeros focusing on her, I don’t think she lives very long, I believe Jamie will face an even that changes his ways, see in the books many characters fates are almost like a Destiny, Ned’s murder makes no sense, Littlefinger isn’t a very good fighter or assassin, and Ned is very suspicious of him, and a great fighter too, also he has at least 2 guards at the door. Littlefinger would get caught and most likely get killed, Littfinger always played his cards with high risk, so he would finally lose his gamble. These are jsut my thought, but I think you did a good job.
I really think Joffrey would’ve been a jealous little sh!t being the second born and I think Cersei would have shown a lot of favoritism towards Joffrey.
Yeah it many u have read she has hateful or spiteful due to the fact she hated Robert
Cersei is Narcissistic mother and her kids has her narcissistic
Yes the what if's are back
Joffrey would surely try to kill him to claim the throne for himself
What if Rhaegal went with Jon snow on the Kings road instead of Daenerys Targaryen on Dragon Stone?
This makes me wonder what the dynamic between the true born Baratheon son and the Lannister children, and with Cersei and Jamie. Does she really love all her children or is it just because Jamie is the father. I remember what she said about your first boy or something so maybe she’d still live him just as much as Joffrey
Glad you are doing these again 🙂
Here's how I think it would go:
Robert keeps himself in better shape and state, as Cersei mentions he seemed to love her and such when she was pregnant with his child, and is better to Cersei, as she gave him a son.
But Cersei still does Jaime, because Robert would still never leave Lyanna in his thoughts.
Now with Joffrey 2nd in line, things will be better, and Robert may even want him fostered in the north, as likely his son is everything Robert wants, and he'll know Ned has a oldest son too, he wants to do the vale again for his kid.
However, when he comes to the north after Jon Arryn dies since 3 kids still illegitimate and Jon isn't dumb, he will want his eldest son married to Sansa, since it will join the houses.
There is no ruby ford since his son will spend time with Sansa and not assault a butchers boy, so the direwolves won't die/ be released yet.
Robert dies of poisoning, and Ned will back roberts son since he will see clearly he's a true son of Robert.
Now Roberts son who will be as old as Robb or Theon is much more competent then Joffrey, and will order the nonsense of Tywin burning the riverlands to cease, Ned will help end the conflict.
Stannis and Renly likely still try and declare king as Cersei did cuck the king, and plot to have him killed, and 3/4 of the royal house are bastards of incest.
Joffrey will attempt to assasinate his brother since he is jealous of him for in his eyes:
-Having the love and attention of father
-having a beautiful bride for queen
- Being better in things like sword fighting and such.
The Starks may even have to be buddy buddy with the lannisters since they are now kin by marriage and even though Ned knows what the queen and her brother did and that the children bar one are not legitimate, the son is the rightul king and is a far better man then Joffrey is, so Ned will want him to be king.
It would be hilarious to see Tywin and Robb interacting, especially when he sees Robb fighting and commanding men with very good tactics while a giant direwolf fights on his side, he would probably wish Robb was his son because of how good he is at battles, and try and get Myrcella bethrothed to him.
-Cersei and Ned having a tense thing where Ned knows what she'd done but can't do anything and she knows that too but is oddly impressed by him.
I knew this was gonna be the what if 😌 I'm excited! Keep up the good work! One of my favorite UA-camrs.
A HUGE clue is what she says about his bastards and how he warmed to them as they giggled and loved him instantly whereas Joffers screamed whenever he held him etc. Basically he gave up on Jof as he didn't look or act like him.
He never warmed to cerseis kids as they didn't look like him, even when Joffrey harmed those animals "like a psychopath" it was done to impress his hunter father who then twatted him and nearly killed him.
He made Joffrey so much worse with the neglect.
What if Elia Martell and Rhaeneys Targaryen survived?
Good one. I would like to see that.
Their lives are messed up. Rhaegar is the one who started all the mess, the moment he ran away with lyanna. In any scenario, they are now deal with any lords who wants revenge over the death of their loved ones, done by him and his mad father
Cersei said herself, the day she walked out of the sept, her hand in the Kings hand, was the one moment where she genuinely felt happy.
After that he became a glutton.
Personally I think the better story would've been cersei and rhaegar, Jaime is pissed either way but I reckon she'd have actually loved rhaegar, whether from duty or genuine love.
PLEASE we need more what if’s
I think that if Orys was a part of got (and looked like that) Robert would love him and he would be a good father to him and Orys would be the apple of everyone's eyes in king's landing pretty much because he'd be strong and fun like Robert and very charismatic and handsome, he might have a great relationship with Renly which later on Renly would destroy by listening to loras Tyrell and he would regret it. Jon Arryn would be very fond of him. Ned Stark upon meeting him would immediately be reminded of a young Robert Baratheon. I think littlefinger would constantly try to spite Joeffery who would already be jealous of Orys, Joeffery would try to kill Orys. Orys would have a great relationship with Tommen and Myrcella. Orys would be a very good swordsman and that would make Tywin, Tyrion and even Jamie very proud/impressed because Joeffery would still not be good at any of that. I think that if Orys was killed, Tyrion, Tywin, Cersei and Jamie would figure out who did it. I think that Orys would be a well liked person, both by Lannisters and everyone else. And about Robert loving him, I think he'd love him because he'd just feel differently about Orys, he'd feel a much deeper connection than he did with the others. I also think that Orys would become friends with Robb, Jon and Theon if he went to the north with his father. And I think if Sansa was blamed for his murder, the Starks would not just be upset by that but also by the fact that Orys died because they'd like Orys very much so they'd know that something is off, Littlefinger would feed them lies, he would feed the Lannisters lies and Cersei would believe these lies, Jamie would be trying to understand what is the truth, Tywin would be very angry because he'd love Orys a lot as his first grandchild who's also pretty amazing at most things, Tywin would be willing to destroy anyone that is related to the murder but it would actually be Tyrion who would figure out that Sansa didn't murder Orys, someone else did, Littlefinger would free Sansa and he would stay back. He'd try to make sure that Joeffery makes poor decisions. Tyrion would still be on the case, who killed Orys and he'd keep figuring out, Littlefinger and Olena would murder joffrey and Tyrion would be accused and the same thing would happen as the show, varys would free him. Sansa would be on the run though. Varys and Tyrion would go to Dany. Eventually Tyrion would figure out that littlefinger killed orys. The Starks and the Lannisters wouldn't go to war but they'd hate each other because the Starks wouldn't know if Sansa is alive or not and Lannisters would believe that she killed orys. When Dany comes, she'd have the support of the Starks unless Bran tells everyone that Jon is a Targareyan and Catelyn Stark would be extremely shocked, Robb and all Catelyn and theon would tell Jon that the iron throne belongs to him and he will refuse which Robb would respect and so would Catelyn although she'd think that it's his he deserves it but she'd not say anything but theon would and Tyrion would know so would varys and their fates would be the same. Danaerys would as usual do the dumb thing to kl but Jon would be made king by the end, not Bran, Bran would have a position on the council, so would tyrion, Sam, etc. North would be an independent kingdom. The Riverlands would belong to the tullys, the vale to the arryns and lf would get killed because tyrion as soon as he gets there would tell cat and Robb everything, Bran would confirm and littlefinger would be killed. Sansa would have her own story but she'd get home by then. The Starks really did love Orys so it would hit them more because their son in law was killed and daughter exiled. The west would be Tyrion's. Basically Jon would have allies everywhere, Riverlands, west, vale, north.
P.s. I think that we'd get a few scenes of father son bonding if orys was a part of the story, like I can see Robert being like this kid is the only reason I've not gone crazy and I think that cersei seeing their relationship would postpone killing Robert as much as possible, it would be very interesting to see that an actual good person would treat the people so differently and would be treated so much better. I really do think that he'd be very well liked by almost everyone but we'd always see Joeffery being jealous or manipulative. So when he'd be killed, everyone really would want the killer dead.
These videos are always fun bro
Here's my challenge for a good vídeo. What if Tywin Lannister defended King's Landing after the Battle of the Trident? What would change with Jaime (kingslayer stuff), Cersei (never would have married Robert), Oberyn (Elya wouldn't be killed by the Mountain) and with House Lannister and the rebels
I wonder if Robb would even accept trial by combat, since it´s more of a southern practice.
I actually wrote a fanfiction about this topic 2 years ago
Very awesome!!!
Great video. Please do WHAT IF: Cersei married Oberyn. A betrothal was in the works before Joanna died but after she died, Tywin threw out the negotiations.
I don't think Cersei is ever going to be married to a second son of any kind. Before the rebellion, there's no particular advantage to an alliance with Dorne. The Martells are grasping much higher than their situation really allows for. Sure Oberyn is a prince, but he is heir to nothing. If Tyrion had not been born a dwarf, then perhaps Tywin would have been able to offer a match with him without making it an insult. A surviving Joanna would have also been able to smooth the situation over better.
@@guardduvie im aware of all of that. the backstory is Joanna and the Princess of Dorne were besties and they wanted to cement that with a marriage. Elia was too old for Jaime or else that would have been the deal
I love this!!!!!! I love how everyone dies. Great video!
3:06 well of course, for Cersei, the solution is always murder.
If a psychic read her mind, all they would see is "murder, murder, mur-der!"
What if
1. Jaime Lannister isn't Kingsgaurd
2. Aerys Burned them all
3. Rheaghar Never Loved Lyanna, Robert married Lyanna
4. Robert chose stannis as Hand ✋ instead of Ned
If stannis became hand after jon arryns death...
1..relieve the 7 kings guards...(see barriston selmy rips off his armor...tosses his sword at stannis and walks off thanking the gods that he wasn't beheaded or burned at a stake...and runs off to essos to help...wait a minnnuuuttteee
2..name ser Davos master of ships..
3.. introduce westeros to the lord of light(thoros was too drunk to do it)
4..outlaw the brothels
5..Round up all of the thieves and ser Davos them
6..name davos's son Mathis a kingsguard..
7.. outlaw the king's and hand's tournament...why have tournaments when you can start your own real battles
8..outlaw public drunkenness
9..appoint Melisandra as high septa..
Robert would care less...he'd be off fucking boars and killing hoars...or is it the other way around?????
10...puts varys baylish...cercai@jamie..pycell all to the sword.heads on spikes...burned at the stake .
Gendry be like "am I a joke to you?"
Another amazing video I love your videos do you still eventually plan to tackle my suggestion on bran escaping Jamie’s push after witnessing teincist totally up to you
If this is based on show logic then I think Varys would be loyal to Oris. Oris is a good person and that’s all show Varys wanted. If he’s loyal to Oris then I don’t think he lets Litter Finger cause all this trouble and would try to expose him to Oris
That's a very fair point! Varys really just wanted the best for Westeros, or at minimum a good person. It's a tough call since we saw the extremes of it all with Varys, but I could see it going either way!
I think the kid may have been named Lyannus. Obviously Cersei would pitch a fit, but Robert would just be booming "I am the King, my will be done! Lyannus he shall be. Accept it, or I'll honour you again."
Daenerys undead dragon is the reason the wall is breached and the walkers even get south when they do. There's no telling how much longer the wall itself could've kept the night king and his army out otherwise
I actually think it would take less than Dany's dragons to get past the Wall - I always assumed there was magic protecting it (which was broken when the NK touched Bran), but I suppose that's more speculation than fact ::sigh::
I don’t think Littlefinger would let Sansa die but somehow make sure Robb came to give Sansa away in marriage and set Robb up as murdering the king and manipulating Sansa into believing it. As far as Joff not being a sociopath or not being spoiled by Cersei? I’m not sure that would’ve changed since Cersei would still treasure him since he’s Cersei and Jamie’s first born and looks like them (she’s a narcissist after all). Plus I’m not sure Joff isn’t inherently a sociopath due to dna issues etc. This is all assuming that Joff didn’t murder his older brother at some point after Robert died.
Also, the king coming north later means that Benjin has already gone ranging in search of Royce and may be already overdue back. Also Jon wouldn't have been sent to the wall yet
What if the joust didn't start before Robert Baratheon pissed himself?
I think the Hound would still be around, because in this scenario there would be no battle at blackwater, because if the heir is legitimate, Stannis would have no desire to attack Kings Landing, since he was always a duty bound bro. He only started to rise up when Ned told him Joffrey was illegitimated. The Hound just would have been the real king's "guard dog", or maybe still Joffrey's, either way, he basically would have just...been there.
I think it would be Theon not Robb that fights for Sansa
Great video keep at it!
I was about to sleep. But I saw you upload sooo....
“Hi, I’m Orys” 😂
Appreciate your videos.
Great topic!!
Thank you buddy!
One thing you missed; the only reason Catelyn stayed at Winterfell was to be with Bran. In this timeline she would have gone to Kings Landing with the the family.
What if Robb married margarey tyrell