I think a common one I look for is 'indirect synergy' for lack of a better term. Where Card X works great with your Commander/theme and Card Y works great with Card X so you add it to the list as well even if Card Y *only* works great with Card X (and maybe one or two others) and not the rest of the deck theme. It makes sense to have it on the blueprint of the deck in case you end up needing to fill space but you really need to keep in mind how often will you have the actual right pieces together for them to matter.
I agree, I personally call it “secondary synergy”, when it doesn’t directly synergize with my commander/main theme. I always have too many at first but quickly find my way to 100 (or lower) when I realize I’m stretching too thing
Good ideas. I find myself doing this cut after playing the deck a few times. Might as well do it before then. The combo potential is nice, however it is statistically less likely. Then add in the removal/counters other players probably have and the likelihood shrinks more
Yeah a card that only synergizes with 1% of your deck is a bad pick. Same reason I'm also super hesitant to include cards that *only* synergize with the commander.
Man, I couldn't agree more. Taking out win-more cards like Parallel Lives, Branching Evolution and even Doubling Season has been the most liberating feeling. Allows room for more interesting cards.
Yeah I'm with you on that one dude. I built a necrobloom deck with a token strategy that has a minor self mill package and cards like parallel live, anointed procession and doubling season are to hard to return from the graveyard and cutting them allowed to me to a lower curve witch over the long game ends up paying g off instead of dumping my mana into a lightning rod that gets removed before I get to even use them.
Well, sometimes it is about the way to your win than about the winning moment itself. Torment of Hailfire and Exsanguinate may not be the most thrilling wincons, but the way I ramp in Orzhov with my Verrak deck to put as much mana as possible in these is sooo much fun.
Love it, would add giving the decklist to a friend and asking them what they would cut. You don't have to make all suggested cuts, but if you spend a lot of time on a deck you might just need a outside opinion.
Outside opinion / "fresh eyes" 👍 Fresh eyes: let some time pass, play some other decks, come back when you're less attached and you can re-fresh your own eyes as well.
This is definitely something that I'm finding myself having a lot of trouble with; although, to be fair, my particular commander situation is, perhaps, a little unusual. Basically; I like Magic as a player, viewer, and a game designer; but I've never really owned any cards of my own. I do have a decently sized group of family and friends who are way into lots of tabletop/board games, and I've been thinking that commander could be a really nice addition to our games roster. However, many of them would enjoy playing but aren't as interested in the deckbuilding side of things; and with the different skill levels, understanding of magic, and play styles on top of that, it would be kind of a mess trying to get everything up and running. So instead; I'm putting together a set of decks myself (aiming for about 5-8, all very low budget) that are built to go together (I've been thinking of it like a roster of characters in a fighting game; each with their own identity and specialties and balanced against each other as much as possible). The closed-system nature of this set completely changes a lot of the normal deckbuilding parameters, as decks don't need to prepare for any unknowns and I have full control over what mechanics and options see play and how much; as well as trying to make sure that across the full set I cover a variety of gameplay styles with enough versatility that most of us can find at least a couple decks that we enjoy playing most of the time (and ideally still find the others interesting enough that we might sometimes switch things up for variety and still have a good time). Shifting it from the standard "build-as-the-player-in-a-pvp-world" focused angle (building "my" deck to take out into the world and pit against randoms) that deckbuilding is usually done as; to more of a holistic, "balance-and-general-game-design" angle works really well for me, and has been really fun so far (although I still have a ways to go before I'm ready to actually start buying the cards) and has led to some really interesting challenges (including at least one potential idea that would be really fun in this context, though terrible anywhere else, but requires a commander that does not exist, so I might just have to include a single 'homebrew' card for the set).
One way I often find for cutting cards is coming to the decision of Jack of all trades, or have weaknesses. There aren’t enough deck spaces anymore to have “sufficient” removal, synergy, draw, etc. with how fast the game has gotten. So typically I will short one of these, maybe playing less draw since I have it on my commander; or less ramp with a low cmc deck. Often trimming around the edges doesn’t do it for me and makes the deck worse than just shorting a card effect. I’ll stay play a couple effects in a shorted category but I won’t count on it and be cognizant of it in game
@@crawdaddy1234 The suggestion is good, one I often give myself. But I don't want to Cut the zombie " Rot Hulk " or the card " Grave Betrayal " My highest cost cards are two at 7 mana and two at 6 mana ( technically 3 cards at 6 mana but I'm casting that with a cycle cost for 2 mana instead of 6 )
I think it's important to make the statement that Torbran and damage doublers don't work like a lot of people assume, since the affected player chooses how the replacement effects are applied. I understand that it's a discussion done to death, but it's still a point that I feel should come up. As for damage doublers, I'm gonna include them in my Arabella that's on the works, but not yet decided which ones to add.
Though it may sound obvious, I begin building by chasing synergy to a fault, so for me, the first cards I cut are the lowest-impact synergy cards. Then I go back and add ramp, draw, and removal, and cut synergy cards which don't somehow contribute to the basics. Sort of how you talk about in the do-more category, I've started to think about cards I don't want in my first 3 or 4 turns (I like to imagine huge late-game payoffs but they mostly sit in my hand...) and limit those to maybe 6-8 per deck.
I think the thing about the cards you mentioned in the end, Expropriate, Insurretion, Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire is that they are simply just too good for lower powered tables. There comes a point in powerlevel were these cards are really hard to cast and if you manage to cast them they should reward you with a win. To a point were they become cool again, because they are so fringe.
Exsanguinate is a must in any black-heavy build. Anyone that plays black knows that the biggest threat to your life total is yourself. Exsanguinate is a spell that has perfect synergy within all mono-black builds, and most 2-color black builds, as it gives you a good chunk of life back to continue channelling the power of black. A black mage knows the life-gain is the most important thing about Exsanguinate. I have cast Exsanguinate for less than 10 more than i have cast it for over 10. It just has the added benefit of being able to end a game if the game has gone too long.
your description of it perfectly exemplifies why it would be the first card i would cut. but you forgot to mention that it is also one of the most unfun and boring ways to win a commander game.
This discussion happens dang near every game night! It's easy to justify putting in ANY of these kinds of cards, but being able to put the theme of the deck you are running/building always comes first! I know I can put Boundless Relms in all of my green decks, but does it REALLY need to be in there?? 😂
Ahh, man. I remember when Reflection of KJ was like $2 when Neon Dynasty first came out. I think a good rule of the thumb for most cards is, "are they useful in almost every circumstance?" Exsanguinate in a deck that has life-gain triggers or that loves to spend its own life and needs a refuel is great, but if it's just in there because you can go infinite and end the game... eh. Expropriate really only-ever becomes a game-ender (at worst a game-prolonger), so I'd only-ever throw it into a weak voting deck vis-a-vis Erestor. Panharmonicon in a blink deck is crazy-good, but it's such a clunky rock if you have maybe 4 things that can trigger it. In all of these cases, they might still be powerful enough in a particularly-broken combo that you can yoink a win, but they'll certainly feel boring.
I agree and I disagree with some of these depending on the deck. Example: City in Fire and Firey Emancipation are both win conditions that require significant set up to end the game in my Alibou deck. I always sandbag pieces like this until I'm ready to win. Playing these before you can close the game out would be just a bad decision. On the same hand I completely agree with the stealing the win away cards. I played an Insurrection once...that was enough.
I totally agree with you. Building a deck with all Vizzerdrix and one Expropriate is basically the same thing as building a deck where you put some effort but ruined by just one "i win" card. That's why i cut Exsanguinate from my Hazel deck. It was just sitting there, grinding, waiting for my wincon. So unfunny. Following your tips I'm having more fun in Commander and I'm enjoying deckbuild even more!
Demo i think what people want from a conversation like this is what are your tips when we have 120 cards that DO fit the theme and DO synergise. What sort of tips do you have in that case? What do we cut?
you cut exactly the cards i talked about in this video. the good stuff cards and the winmore cards. panharmonicon is going to synergize with your deck obviously but i would cut it anyway. there's so many cards to fit in every theme now that the cards you are cutting will likely be cards that are actually good fits in your deck.
@ oh Demo! You replied! Sorry if my initial comment came across as negative. I love what you do. Listen all the time. And i do agree with things you said. I did watch the whole thing. I think i run into this problem a lot and i wish there was an answer for it. I run tribal cards a lot and you end up with a pile of like 100 creatures in that tribe. I try to cut by various means. Mana value etc. but i really wanted to know what you were doing. Because for me, out if those 100 or whatever cards, not many fall into the categories you described. I know you said you don’t like tribal much and thats cool. Anyway thanks for responding. Sorry again if i sounded rude before.
I agree with the basic premise of cutting the good stuff, but I think one reason to keep some of it is that “good stuff” can provide an obvious target for opponents removal so you have a better chance to keep the thing you really want! Throw some chum out to the sharks.
I have a few of these in my mono black Sheoldred, the Apocalypse deck hahaha but some fit the theme for sure. I have cut out some though as well, mostly the super high mana cost cards that just win the game
My main issue is that awhile back when you brought I steal the win cards being bad, around that same time you had a video criticizing slow commander games and durdle decks that are unable to close games. I just want to know are there any I steal the win cards that you do like? I don’t know how many games I have played in the last few years that players don’t know how to close games and I would welcome a steal the win card if it meant no 2-3 hour edh games. I do understand that it sucks to lose to Expropriate or Second Sun every-time and that would get boring, but I would rather have players have at least a surprise win card rather than another synergistic piece that does nothing to progress the game. Other than that, I agree with your points made and it may provide reason why I can’t find myself a deck to put a bunch of token doublers in.
I’ve always hated Expropriate and then I actually pulled one from Duskmorne totally forgetting it was in there 😂 stuck it in my Zaffai big mana Izzet deck and never play it again
I play the what if game…. If I have to say “this card is only good IF this is out, or my opponent has this out” then I cut it. Situational cards are based off your meta. Only time I o sterile this is if that card like torpral orc for example shuts down my etb deck… and that’s my answer for it I’ll keep it.
I wonder if the logic of avoiding a monolith commander rubs up against the logic of avoiding cards that “steal the win away from yourself”. Consider the commander you might run to accommodate a deck that’s really doing something unrelated…by virtue of its color identity and disparate potential to help in a given scenario. Then consider how similar that description is to an “I win” card. 🤔
Reasons to cut: 1) Low card quality-cards so bad they just can’t be justifiably included 2) Super staples-cards so ubiquitous they are boring 3) Clunky cost-cards that have too high a mana value 4) Time efficiency-cards that take forever to resolve 5) Obsolete-a new card came along that does the same thing in a way you prefer 6) “Dream scenario”-cards that are only good in some insanely unlikely situation 7) Off-theme-cards that aren’t leaving you room for your game plan 8) Power outliers-cards that warp the game and are way stronger than the rest of your list 9) Critical mass-you have too many of the effect in your deck
I think a common one I look for is 'indirect synergy' for lack of a better term. Where Card X works great with your Commander/theme and Card Y works great with Card X so you add it to the list as well even if Card Y *only* works great with Card X (and maybe one or two others) and not the rest of the deck theme. It makes sense to have it on the blueprint of the deck in case you end up needing to fill space but you really need to keep in mind how often will you have the actual right pieces together for them to matter.
I agree, I personally call it “secondary synergy”, when it doesn’t directly synergize with my commander/main theme. I always have too many at first but quickly find my way to 100 (or lower) when I realize I’m stretching too thing
Good ideas. I find myself doing this cut after playing the deck a few times. Might as well do it before then. The combo potential is nice, however it is statistically less likely. Then add in the removal/counters other players probably have and the likelihood shrinks more
Yeah a card that only synergizes with 1% of your deck is a bad pick. Same reason I'm also super hesitant to include cards that *only* synergize with the commander.
Man, I couldn't agree more. Taking out win-more cards like Parallel Lives, Branching Evolution and even Doubling Season has been the most liberating feeling. Allows room for more interesting cards.
My philosophy is, if my card does the thing I want, it’s already doing the thing. If it’s only good if it does it more… then I don’t want that card. 😂
@@crawdaddy1234 yeah exact reason why I took Dunedain Rangers out of my Smeagol deck. Doesn't really do shit if the other combo pieces aren't out
Yeah I'm with you on that one dude. I built a necrobloom deck with a token strategy that has a minor self mill package and cards like parallel live, anointed procession and doubling season are to hard to return from the graveyard and cutting them allowed to me to a lower curve witch over the long game ends up paying g off instead of dumping my mana into a lightning rod that gets removed before I get to even use them.
Generslly i limit myself to 1 forcemultiplier der deck (if any) and generally i try to exclude it from the commandzone.
My newest deck list is currently at 600 cards. Might take a while to narrow it down.
who builds a Deck Like that hahaha?
No, just cut it into 6 decks and you're done
I knew a guy whose deck was in a fat pack box, and he would keep the mana base and randomize 60 from the box and that’s his deck
Rule 0: YOLO
Well, sometimes it is about the way to your win than about the winning moment itself. Torment of Hailfire and Exsanguinate may not be the most thrilling wincons, but the way I ramp in Orzhov with my Verrak deck to put as much mana as possible in these is sooo much fun.
Yeah mate, and some games just need to end. I've played many a game where everyone was basically begging for a Torment.
Love it, would add giving the decklist to a friend and asking them what they would cut.
You don't have to make all suggested cuts, but if you spend a lot of time on a deck you might just need a outside opinion.
Outside opinion / "fresh eyes" 👍
Fresh eyes: let some time pass, play some other decks, come back when you're less attached and you can re-fresh your own eyes as well.
100% agree with this philosophy. I bought a copy of Mondrak when it came out and it has been cut from every deck I've tried to put it in 😅
This is definitely something that I'm finding myself having a lot of trouble with; although, to be fair, my particular commander situation is, perhaps, a little unusual.
Basically; I like Magic as a player, viewer, and a game designer; but I've never really owned any cards of my own. I do have a decently sized group of family and friends who are way into lots of tabletop/board games, and I've been thinking that commander could be a really nice addition to our games roster. However, many of them would enjoy playing but aren't as interested in the deckbuilding side of things; and with the different skill levels, understanding of magic, and play styles on top of that, it would be kind of a mess trying to get everything up and running.
So instead; I'm putting together a set of decks myself (aiming for about 5-8, all very low budget) that are built to go together (I've been thinking of it like a roster of characters in a fighting game; each with their own identity and specialties and balanced against each other as much as possible). The closed-system nature of this set completely changes a lot of the normal deckbuilding parameters, as decks don't need to prepare for any unknowns and I have full control over what mechanics and options see play and how much; as well as trying to make sure that across the full set I cover a variety of gameplay styles with enough versatility that most of us can find at least a couple decks that we enjoy playing most of the time (and ideally still find the others interesting enough that we might sometimes switch things up for variety and still have a good time).
Shifting it from the standard "build-as-the-player-in-a-pvp-world" focused angle (building "my" deck to take out into the world and pit against randoms) that deckbuilding is usually done as; to more of a holistic, "balance-and-general-game-design" angle works really well for me, and has been really fun so far (although I still have a ways to go before I'm ready to actually start buying the cards) and has led to some really interesting challenges (including at least one potential idea that would be really fun in this context, though terrible anywhere else, but requires a commander that does not exist, so I might just have to include a single 'homebrew' card for the set).
One way I often find for cutting cards is coming to the decision of Jack of all trades, or have weaknesses. There aren’t enough deck spaces anymore to have “sufficient” removal, synergy, draw, etc. with how fast the game has gotten. So typically I will short one of these, maybe playing less draw since I have it on my commander; or less ramp with a low cmc deck. Often trimming around the edges doesn’t do it for me and makes the deck worse than just shorting a card effect. I’ll stay play a couple effects in a shorted category but I won’t count on it and be cognizant of it in game
First time Ive heard someone mention Jarad
I'm sitting with a mono black zombie Tribal deck right now that is 105 cards and I'm doing my best to get it down to 100!
What commander? Have a decklist?
When in doubt, cut the highest mana value cards… that isn’t an MDFC land.
@@crawdaddy1234 The suggestion is good, one I often give myself.
But I don't want to Cut the zombie " Rot Hulk " or the card " Grave Betrayal "
My highest cost cards are two at 7 mana and two at 6 mana ( technically 3 cards at 6 mana but I'm casting that with a cycle cost for 2 mana instead of 6 )
@@Temuldjinlink the moxfield/tappedout or whatever. People willlet you know
I cut out 5 lands and go into challenger mode
I think it's important to make the statement that Torbran and damage doublers don't work like a lot of people assume, since the affected player chooses how the replacement effects are applied. I understand that it's a discussion done to death, but it's still a point that I feel should come up.
As for damage doublers, I'm gonna include them in my Arabella that's on the works, but not yet decided which ones to add.
Though it may sound obvious, I begin building by chasing synergy to a fault, so for me, the first cards I cut are the lowest-impact synergy cards. Then I go back and add ramp, draw, and removal, and cut synergy cards which don't somehow contribute to the basics. Sort of how you talk about in the do-more category, I've started to think about cards I don't want in my first 3 or 4 turns (I like to imagine huge late-game payoffs but they mostly sit in my hand...) and limit those to maybe 6-8 per deck.
I think the thing about the cards you mentioned in the end, Expropriate, Insurretion, Exsanguinate and Torment of Hailfire is that they are simply just too good for lower powered tables.
There comes a point in powerlevel were these cards are really hard to cast and if you manage to cast them they should reward you with a win. To a point were they become cool again, because they are so fringe.
Goodstuff cards: Esper Sentinel, Rhystic Study, Smothering Tithe, Trouble in Pairs
Exsanguinate is a must in any black-heavy build.
Anyone that plays black knows that the biggest threat to your life total is yourself. Exsanguinate is a spell that has perfect synergy within all mono-black builds, and most 2-color black builds, as it gives you a good chunk of life back to continue channelling the power of black.
A black mage knows the life-gain is the most important thing about Exsanguinate. I have cast Exsanguinate for less than 10 more than i have cast it for over 10. It just has the added benefit of being able to end a game if the game has gone too long.
your description of it perfectly exemplifies why it would be the first card i would cut. but you forgot to mention that it is also one of the most unfun and boring ways to win a commander game.
@edhdeckbuilding ok Richard.
This discussion happens dang near every game night! It's easy to justify putting in ANY of these kinds of cards, but being able to put the theme of the deck you are running/building always comes first!
I know I can put Boundless Relms in all of my green decks, but does it REALLY need to be in there?? 😂
Ahh, man. I remember when Reflection of KJ was like $2 when Neon Dynasty first came out.
I think a good rule of the thumb for most cards is, "are they useful in almost every circumstance?"
Exsanguinate in a deck that has life-gain triggers or that loves to spend its own life and needs a refuel is great, but if it's just in there because you can go infinite and end the game... eh. Expropriate really only-ever becomes a game-ender (at worst a game-prolonger), so I'd only-ever throw it into a weak voting deck vis-a-vis Erestor. Panharmonicon in a blink deck is crazy-good, but it's such a clunky rock if you have maybe 4 things that can trigger it. In all of these cases, they might still be powerful enough in a particularly-broken combo that you can yoink a win, but they'll certainly feel boring.
I agree and I disagree with some of these depending on the deck. Example: City in Fire and Firey Emancipation are both win conditions that require significant set up to end the game in my Alibou deck. I always sandbag pieces like this until I'm ready to win. Playing these before you can close the game out would be just a bad decision.
On the same hand I completely agree with the stealing the win away cards. I played an Insurrection once...that was enough.
Looping Expropriate or Alrund's Epiphany is a wincon in my God-Eternal Kefnet deck. I don't think I would include expropriate in any other decks.
I totally agree with you.
Building a deck with all Vizzerdrix and one Expropriate is basically the same thing as building a deck where you put some effort but ruined by just one "i win" card.
That's why i cut Exsanguinate from my Hazel deck. It was just sitting there, grinding, waiting for my wincon. So unfunny.
Following your tips I'm having more fun in Commander and I'm enjoying deckbuild even more!
I play expropriate in a deck I call "political violence" and the commander is Riven Turnbull. It fits perfectly in that deck, in flavor and function.
Demo i think what people want from a conversation like this is what are your tips when we have 120 cards that DO fit the theme and DO synergise. What sort of tips do you have in that case? What do we cut?
you cut exactly the cards i talked about in this video. the good stuff cards and the winmore cards. panharmonicon is going to synergize with your deck obviously but i would cut it anyway. there's so many cards to fit in every theme now that the cards you are cutting will likely be cards that are actually good fits in your deck.
@ oh Demo! You replied! Sorry if my initial comment came across as negative. I love what you do. Listen all the time. And i do agree with things you said. I did watch the whole thing.
I think i run into this problem a lot and i wish there was an answer for it. I run tribal cards a lot and you end up with a pile of like 100 creatures in that tribe. I try to cut by various means. Mana value etc. but i really wanted to know what you were doing. Because for me, out if those 100 or whatever cards, not many fall into the categories you described.
I know you said you don’t like tribal much and thats cool.
Anyway thanks for responding. Sorry again if i sounded rude before.
Putting a staple in the 99 is like admitting defeat for me. I only ever do it if I'm absolutely at my wit's end for cards to slot in.
I agree with the basic premise of cutting the good stuff, but I think one reason to keep some of it is that “good stuff” can provide an obvious target for opponents removal so you have a better chance to keep the thing you really want! Throw some chum out to the sharks.
I have a few of these in my mono black Sheoldred, the Apocalypse deck hahaha but some fit the theme for sure. I have cut out some though as well, mostly the super high mana cost cards that just win the game
Can we do more of the polls for the underwhelming commanders? Love the content Demo. I wish I had the money to support you on patreon.
I pay only 2 bucks a month, not sure on your situation but I would say the Patreon discord is worth it !
totally agree nuff said 😉👍
My main issue is that awhile back when you brought I steal the win cards being bad, around that same time you had a video criticizing slow commander games and durdle decks that are unable to close games. I just want to know are there any I steal the win cards that you do like? I don’t know how many games I have played in the last few years that players don’t know how to close games and I would welcome a steal the win card if it meant no 2-3 hour edh games. I do understand that it sucks to lose to Expropriate or Second Sun every-time and that would get boring, but I would rather have players have at least a surprise win card rather than another synergistic piece that does nothing to progress the game.
Other than that, I agree with your points made and it may provide reason why I can’t find myself a deck to put a bunch of token doublers in.
I really struggle getting down to 99 cards. I like doing the fun stuff, so my decks always lack important things like removal 😢
That`s how I create more deck, otimize somes and gather the leftovers and test in others
Insurrection is in my don andreas deck for the theft aspect but even then it doesn't feel amazing to win with it
☀️ 💧 💀 🔥 🌳
I’ve always hated Expropriate and then I actually pulled one from Duskmorne totally forgetting it was in there 😂 stuck it in my Zaffai big mana Izzet deck and never play it again
I play the what if game…. If I have to say “this card is only good IF this is out, or my opponent has this out” then I cut it. Situational cards are based off your meta. Only time I o sterile this is if that card like torpral orc for example shuts down my etb deck… and that’s my answer for it I’ll keep it.
Expropriate fits in Narset
Lands
Several decks have cut tutors for more “big draw”
I cut removal & I always lose 😂
I wonder if the logic of avoiding a monolith commander rubs up against the logic of avoiding cards that “steal the win away from yourself”. Consider the commander you might run to accommodate a deck that’s really doing something unrelated…by virtue of its color identity and disparate potential to help in a given scenario. Then consider how similar that description is to an “I win” card. 🤔
Most of these cards are 6+ mana. The format has sped up to the point where people run fewer expensive cards in their decks.
Reasons to cut:
1) Low card quality-cards so bad they just can’t be justifiably included
2) Super staples-cards so ubiquitous they are boring
3) Clunky cost-cards that have too high a mana value
4) Time efficiency-cards that take forever to resolve
5) Obsolete-a new card came along that does the same thing in a way you prefer
6) “Dream scenario”-cards that are only good in some insanely unlikely situation
7) Off-theme-cards that aren’t leaving you room for your game plan
8) Power outliers-cards that warp the game and are way stronger than the rest of your list
9) Critical mass-you have too many of the effect in your deck
10) Cowboy hat in the artwork
@ too real 😂
First!