Jay, this is an excellent video explaining the provisional ball rules. There are a lot rules vids out there but find your technique and delivery is easy to follow and interesting. Do another!
Great video! We were always taught to say provisional and make sure people heard it before striking another ball, AND to use a ball marked with a P, indicating provisional. In fact, before every round of golf, I make sure to have no less than 3 balls marked with a P just for this purpose, and they are kept in a different place from the rest of my balls so they don't get accidentally used.
When I play, I mark my original balls with a black or blue marker but, I mark a sleeve of balls with a red marker to be used if I need to hit a provisional.
Dude, you are a natural. These are clear explainations and the production is top notch. The combination of live action (you), the drone perspective, and the actual rules from the book is a powerful combination for learning.
Great add on about being able to prove which is the Original Ball vs. the Provisional Ball. I play Pro V1x and I buy # 23 by the dozen as my Playing Ball, and I also pick up a Sleeve of # 4 and use the 4s as my Provisional. This way I can Mark both identically - as mine - and still tell the difference.
@@JayRobertsGolf I have two Granddaughters. One's Birthday is the 4th, the Other's is the 23rd. Easy to buy a dozen 23's - Pro V1x - even easier to buy a sleeve of 4's 😉
Curious here, at 2:30 you talk about the penalty area down the left side of the fairway and how you can’t take a provisional if you hit or think you hit into that penalty area. However, on the other side of that penalty area there are houses. It’s not inconceivable to think that on the other side of that penalty area those yards would be marked OB. Can a player play a provisional if they think the hit it so far left that it’s over the penalty area and OB in a backyard?
1) Great video. I love the simple but thorough explanation and visuals. 2) Scenario I’ve been trying to get an answer to but not sure if I’m over thinking. Can someone call “provisional” on a second or third stroke? Example - I hit a great tee shot middle of fairway. My second shot from fairway, I hit it potentially OB or nervous it’ll be lost. Can I play a provisional on that second shot from fairway? Every video/forum only talks about off the tee box but none say you can play a “provisional” from the fairway.
Great explanation, Jay. Couple of weird scenarios: Slice original ball into the general area; Slice provisional ball #1 into the general area again; Hit provisional ball #2 onto the fairway; Scenario #1: cannot find the original ball & provisional ball #1; walk up to provision ball #2. I guess I'm hitting my 6th shot now? Scenario #2: I am able to find the original ball. So I can play my 2nd shot and abandon provisional ball #1 & #2?
Yes. You always give priority to Original ball if found. If original not found, priority goes to Provisional 1 and so on. One way to think of it: Provisiona #1 is only a provisional for the original ball. Provisional #2 is only a Provisional for Provisional #1 and has no other relationship to any other ball. Provisional #3 is only a Provisional for Provisional #2 and has no other relationship to any other ball. I once watched a guy in a tournament hit 5 balls off the tee. There's no way he paid attention to the markings of each ball, he was fuming, so the result during his search was bound to be a cluster F. I did not follow to witness that.
Hi Jay, question came up and would love some clarity If your tee shot has to clear water but you didn’t make it over, so in the drop zone area, can you retee or you must drop ball?
Thank you for this clarification (which i did know but reminder well worth it). One question, if your ball ends up resting against an OB marker post? I know (unlike a penalty marker) you can't move an OB stake if it interferes with your swing, but not sure what to do if it actually rests against it (on the inbound side...). Appreciate your advice on this one! Cheers, Mike
Unfortunately, it's a tough spot. OB stakes (boundary objects) must be treated as immovable so you can't move it like you said. You can play it as it lies and if you move the stake during the stroke, that's ok no penalty. If the stakes interference creates too much of a problem for the next stroke, you can take an Unplayable Lie 🤷♂️
@@JayRobertsGolf Cheers Jay ... thought that may be the case. Find your rulings invaluable as I'm a vice captain of our club and need to be as up to date as possible on the rules
@@JayRobertsGolf here's one you may be interested in ..a great frustration in our club in AKL NZ! Our club is on clay based land and in many spots drainage is a major issue in winter. some areas very close to fairways and greens get so boggy a) green staff can't get mowers in, and b) suckered balls simply disappear. In some cases a missed green by a metre or so will result in lost ball.... deeply frustrating! Many members try and claim "Abnormal Ground Condition" and are entitled to a free drop (if marker agrees), but we have to insist that rule only applies to casual water, immovable objects, GUR and animal holes so unless casual water is actually clear and obvious, no relief. Next issue is we have been told by NZ Golf we are unable to declare a local rule allowing the free drop as rules of golf won't allow this (as the 4 options above are only ones allowed under 16.1 .We have to rely on ground staff marking as many of these areas as possible as GUR but that in mid winter is a major issue in itself, result being frustrated members Interested in your thoughts on this one! Cheers, Mike
Here's an example: Let's say I hit my tee shot on a par 3 and I think I've hit it into water. And I want to play from the tee again as my third shot. So I play that one onto the green. But then I get down by the green and find that my original ball stayed up. As you said in the vid, I wasn't playing a provisional when I re-teed because you can't play a provisional when you think your ball is in a penalty area. So, am I allowed to continue with my original ball and pick up the other? Do I have the option to play on with the re-teed ball that I hit onto the green? Or am I obliged to continue with that ball because I hit it and it wasn't as provisional?
When you made a stroke at the second ball from the tee, you took stroke and distance. That is now your ball in play and the original ball automatically becomes a Wrong Ball that must not played, even if you find it and want to play it
Whats the rule if you hit a tee shot into the general area call that you are playing a provisional and hit it in the same area so you play another provisional which goes straight into the fairway no problem. You then go to look for your original ball and the first provisional to no avail. Is the third provisional ball thats sitting in the fairway considered hitting your fourth or do you get a penalty for the first provisional as well so will be hitting 6?
If the first ball is lost, the provisional becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. If the provisional becomes lost, the second provisional also becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. That ball in the fairway lies 5 and you are hitting 6!
@@JayRobertsGolf Hey Jay. In this scenario the player hits 2 provisionals, first one went into the General Area, second to the FW. Despite hitting 2 provisionals, should we look and find the original ball, we can still play that, hitting 2, correct?
Jay, a situation that happened to me last weekend. My playing partner pushed his second shot into the deep woods to the right of the fairway. He played a provisional and hit that ball up close to the green. He then found his original ball in the deep woods but declared it unplayable and chose to play his provisional ball near the green. I had always heard that if you find your original ball, then that is the ball in play. If you declare it unplayable, THEN you go back and hit another one. You can't retroactively use your provisional that was hit when you thought your ball may be lost. Seems like he got two bites at the apple. Knowing that he already hit a good provisional could have influenced his decision to declare his other ball unplayable. Neither one of us knew for sure about how to handle it.
If you find the original ball, that ball is in play and the provisional must be abandoned no matter what. This is covered by 18.3c(3)/1: "Provisional Ball Cannot Serve as a Ball in Play if Original Ball is Unplayable or in a Penalty Area", which reads: "A player is only allowed to play a provisional ball if he or she believes the original ball might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds. The player may not decide that a second ball he or she is going to play is both a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds and the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a penalty area. If the original ball is found in bounds or is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area, the provisional ball must be abandoned." So, you were exactly right, well done! 👌⛳
@@JayRobertsGolf A further scenario. Supposing the player makes no attempt whatsoever to find the initial ball knowing that the provisional shot was near the green, is that in the rules? What rules are in place to "force" the player to look for the ball?
@@KennyReid1969 There isn't a Rule that forces or requires a player to look for the ball. It's up to the player whether or not they want to look. They can also ask others to not look for it, but they don't have to oblige. If I asked you to not look for the ball, and you look anyway and find it, I am required to identify the ball. If it's mine, it becomes the ball in play. 18.3c(2)/2
@@JayRobertsGolf 18.3c(3)/1 is a useless rule then. Nobody is going to search for the ball that was likely lost after the provisional ball is positioned better, if - after finding the ball that was considered lost - you need to abandon the provisional. In both cases you get one stroke added.
@@Falquiboy Not exactly. Consider this.... I hit the first ball way right into the woods. Likely lost, so I play a provisional and stripe it down the fairway. If I play the provisional, I'm hitting 4. BUT, if I find the first and it's in halfway decent shape, I could punch out to where the provisional ball is. Then i'd be hitting 3 (instead of 4). So there are MANY situations where someone would search for a ball that might be lost despite the fact that the provisional is in A1 shape.
Great explanation on how to use a provisional. My confusion is why you would want to use it. I mean, unless you flub a 100 yd into unknown territory, it seems taking a drop is always preferable to a provisional. In the scenario he presented here, his shot that took his ball past the lost ball was lying 4, hitting 5. If he took a drop immediately and barely made it to the spot where his provisional was, he'd be lying 3 hitting 4. What am I missing?
He can't take a drop off a lost ball. He would need to know where the ball is to determine nearest point of relief. The new local rule can help with this as it allows you to drop at a similar distance to the lost ball and hit 4. However under competition rules this is not permitted and he would need to return to the tee to take stroke and distance. Hence hit a provisional in case stroke and distance becomes necessary in which case you have already taken it.
For the bonus tip if you slice the first drive and slice the provisional to the roughly the same area can u not take another provisional as there is a chance u might not find either.
Absolutely. 18.3a "If a provisional ball itself might be lost outside of a Penalty Area or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional. The provisional then has the same relationship to the first provisional as the first one has to the original ball".
I know you are not supposed to hit a provisional if you hit into a penalty area. However, there is a course I play a couple of times a year that one of the par 4's tee shots has a long carry over a marsh area. I have seen where a player would hit a low line drive that goes to where the marsh (penalty area) ends on the other side and you can't see if the ball stayed in the penalty area or if it made it just on the other side due to the tall grass. Even though the carry might be only 200 yds the cart path has to go way out of the way to get around the marsh and to the other side. Is there any rule in the book that might allow a provisional in this case to keep from having to go look first and then driving all the way back to the tee if it did indeed stay in?
if you find and play your original, is there still a stroke penalty for hitting a provisional? also, (forgive me, this is dizzying to a relatively new golfer) where are the penalties incurred under stroke and distance if you play and keep your provisional? +1 off the tee (hitting 2nd shot) i get, but where is the 2nd penalty from in your example that you'd be hitting 5? +1 for lost ball?
Sorry for the delay! 1) No, there is no penalty for hitting a provisional but end up playing your original. Provisionals are always free unless you end up playing it. 2) Think of the Stroke and Distance penalty as applying 1 Penalty Stroke for putting a new ball in play but you also lose the benefit of distance since you have to play another ball from the location of your last shot, which in this case is the teeing area, and 3) So in this example, I hit my original ball right into an area and it's lost. That's one stroke. I apply a penalty stroke for putting a new ball into play at the tee. There's two strokes. I then hit my ball from the teeing area, thats three strokes. I advanced my ball down the fairway, that's my fourth stroke. So my next stroke would be 5. Hope that helps and welcome any follow up questions!
A related question. When you play your provisional ball in this situation, before reaching your 1st ball, but that provisional ball turns out to be a stray ball. A wrong ball. Because a few yards further along you find your provisional. What is the ruling? And when you reach your 1st ball and find it, are the provisional strokes abandoned? Thanks.
Jay if I find both my original ball and Pb, and my PB is nearer to the hole than the original ball, if a play the PB is that now a WB that must be abandon?
Great question. If you FIND your original ball, your provisional ball would become be a wrong ball that must be abandoned and not played. If you played your provisional ball after finding your original ball, it would be a wrong ball. R18.3.
just wondering if you're obligated to look for the original if it's nothing but crap and an unplayable area. Can you declare it lost and move to provisional? What if your playing competitor looks and finds it, but you want nothing to do with the original?
Absolutely great video You have a new Fan!! Question? if you search for your ball and you declare the ball is lost and you say I am playing now my Provisional ball, the 3 min is not quite over and some one finds your ball Do you have to play that ball? although you declared it lost believing 3 min has past!
Hi Paula. Thanks for the comment! Per the definition of Lost, a ball does not become lost as a result of the player declaring it to be lost. In other words, declaring a ball lost doesn't change the status of the ball. So, if your original ball is found within the 3-minute search time, it remains your ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned. Hope that helps
Thank you for this! Can you please cover hazards and Out of Bounds? Like what if a course doesn't have any markings like stakes or painted lines? What is the penalty for a ball you hit in the water hazard or goes OB? I always played the line the ball went in the water one club length drop no closer to the hole from where it went out with a one stroke penalty but was told the other day that is a two stroke penalty and nothing is very clear that I'm finding.
That's a bunch of questions. I'll try some: 1. A course with no markings, someone at that course should be fired after being flogged. Complain. No excuse for that. I'm not a fan of complainers but this is an egregious sin. 2. "Hazard" term no longer used. New term is "Penalty Area". It includes things like bodies of water, but can include much more than that. 3. Even if unmarked, certain bodies of water can be assumed to be Penalty Areas, eg., a lake or pond or a river. The margin or boundary of such an unmarked Penalty area is where the ground clearly "drops off" or descends from the General area toward the body of water. This can still be quite a distance from the actual edge of the water. 4. Generally, if no OB is marked, there is no OB. Play the entire course as General Area until marked otherwise. However, there are obvious areas that should be considered OB even if not marked, for example, a ball beyond a wall or fence that marks the golf course property boundary. Or, a ball in somebody's yard who has a house near the golf course property. Just use common sense here. 5. The potential 2-stroke penalty you mentioned is an option only for balls lost or OB and ONLY if there is a specific Local Rule that provides that as an OPTION. If there is no local rule, that option does not exist. Without that explicit local rule, Play lost or OB balls in the traditional way and forget you ever heard about anything else. For more details, look up that Local Rule description in the Rules of Golf. Balls lost in water (Penalty Area) carry a one stroke penalty if relief is taken, just like always.
Sorry for missing your comment, flibjabber. Penalty Areas and OB videos are coming soon. In the meantime, Randsurfer provided some helpful, accurate answers! Thanks for the comment!
So if I hit a provisional ball and find my first ball I can say it is unplayable and if the 2 clubs or backwards in line with flag do not help me- I have to go back with stroke and distance and hit another one from where my first ball landed in the unplayable spot? I cant play my provisional further?
Hi, i have a situation. Please help. Im on a par 3 and i have to hit a ball over a water hazard with tall grasses at the far edge. So I hit my ball from the tee and it may have just got over the hazard but it may not have? We cannot tell until we go look. I do not want to declare it in the hazard until i have gone to check. But its too long a walk to go there and bsck if i have to. What are my options now? Do i have to hit a provisional from the tee? But if it was in hazard I would be able to drop the next ball in drop zone or on the line it crossed the hazard. That’s a shorter more preferable distance. But my colleagues say i cannot hit a provisional at those shorter distances. So do I have to declare it in the hazard to get a shorter drop penalty? What if i then go up to the green and npw see the original ball just past the water hazard?
This is actually a tricky question. First, there aren't hazards anymore only penalty areas (red and yellow). Let's assume for this that the water is marked as a yellow penalty area (if it is red you potentially have one extra relief option). Now, if you know or are virtually certain that you hit it in the penalty area you cannot hit a provisional. You must either hit it where it lies or take one of the two relief options under a one-stroke penalty: back-on-the-line or stroke-and-distance. In your example you also have the local rule drop zone option. However, if you aren't sure that you hit it in the penalty area and you might have lost it somewhere outside the penalty area, you can hit a provisional. But this is where it gets tricky. Say you hit a provisional, and then you go and look for your ball and can't find it. At this point you can hardly say, "Well it must have gone into the penalty area." Rather, you have to play it as a lost ball because you are not virtual certain it is lost in the penalty area. Therefore your provisional is now in play. What you clearly cannot do is hit a provisional and then decide to abandon the provisional and drop a ball as though it went in the penalty area. You also can't play a 'provisional' shot from the drop zone as if you went in the penalty area and then go looking for the original like it didn't go into the penalty area.
So for counting purpose. Ball A is stroke one. Stroke two is to Tee up another ball, Stroke 3 is hitting the provisional. You go out and can't find Ball A, so you're hitting your provisional for 4? Is that correct?
What do I do when I hit my provisional ball in the same direction as my original ball? Can I play provisional ball #2 (or even more) from the tee? If I cannot find my original and prov #1 and do find my prov #2, what is my penalty count? Do I add up the strokes? Or is it still my 3rd stroke when I continue to play with prov #2? Thanks for your response and all your video’s!
You can hit as many provisionals as needed. If both your original ball and first provisional ball are lost, you would play the second provisional but you would be hitting 5 from the tee (The original ball becoming lost means your provisional is in play under penalty of stroke and distance. If the provisional ball is also lost, your second provisional would become the ball in play but also under stroke and distance). Hope that helps??
On the hole you're playing it looks like it would be difficult to see whereabouts a ball may cross the penalty area. I get the point you made earlier about the almost certainty that the ball would be in the penalty area but if the ball could not be seen into the penalty area and subsequently not found (to enable an approximate point of entry) is the only option to play stroke and distance (ie back to the tee) ? Note: I think there is a local rule available when it is not possible to see the penalty area (not possible to ascertain the point of entry) that allows a provisional to be played.👍
The local rule you’re referring to allows the player to hit a provisional for a ball may have gone into a penalty area but it doesn’t address the situation of not physically seeing the ball cross or determining point of entry. This local rule is rarely used though. There are many penalty areas that are either hidden or make it impossible to see where the ball actually crossed. All you must do is use your best reasonable judgement to estimate where it crossed. You don’t have to physically find your ball to take relief for a penalty area. Does that help?
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks yes! The course I play has a few such penalty areas (without the local rule) perhaps drop zones would help as there can be confusion where to take relief? I think the local rule allows a provisional but should you find the ball in the penalty area you play it as it lies or take the provisional? 👍🏻
Maybe in addition to your last part. To prevent these situations I've got always three balls with two numbers in my pocket. eg. two 3 and one 2. So in the highly unlikely scenario that I slice one into the woods I know exactly which number is the original and I have an identifiable ball for the provisional directly at hand.
Keep in mind, just because you are playing a Pro-V #2, that doesn't mean the Pro-V #2 you find is actually yours, even though it is likely. The proper method is to mark you ball using some marking device (most use a Sharpie) with a distinctive identifying mark.
I buy my Pro V1x Balls all numbered 23, by the dozen. I buy a 3 Ball Sleeve of Number 4's as my Provisionals. 23's and 4's all have the same "Dot Pattern Marking" of my own, to Identify as Mine. I choose 23 and 4 because my Two Granddaughters birthdays are the 23rd and the 4th. 😊
You missed out on how to handle multiple provisional balls. If I blast my first ball out of bounds, then I blast my first provisional out of bounds, then I hit a second provisional straight down the fairway, am I now playing my 6th shot from the fairway or my fourth shot, in other words is my second provisional a provisional for my first or is it an alternative provisional for my original tee shot? This scenario happens a lot on my course, OB is very close to a fairway the whole length of a par 5, thanks
This may have been covered in video but im very new to this but my question is... If you tee off and you dont think the ball is lost, but when you go towards the area of where the ball landed and you cant find it, what is the penalty for not taking a provisional?
My partner hit his second shot in a tall grassy area then chose to hit a provisional. The first provisional he hit went into a different grassy area, then he proceeded to hit another provisional which he hit in play and was further than his original ball. We then proceeded to look for his original ball which he found and that's the one he played. My question is how many provisional balls can you hit before you have to commit to one of the provisional balls even if you find your original ball.
Here is my question/scenario? So If I hit my driver 280-310 , and I happen to slice one into a woods. so I hit a provisional 3W straight 250 and then I could potentially chip up 30 yards or so to get me closer but without penalty or counting the stroke? assuming my original ball is 280-310 yards and still closer to the hole ? Second question if that’s not a stroke… would it have to be on the same surface? Let’s say provisional is at 250 in the rough could I chip it into fairway?
I’m talking to your hypothetical statement at 5:56. Or did I misunderstand and those strokes all count when you top it but if you find the original you go back to hitting number 2 ?
Question regarding something that happened on the course today. My playing partner hit the ball into the woods on his second shot on a par 5 marked with red hazard area. we looked around in the woods for three minutes, couldn’t find it, and he took a drop. He hit his ball out into the fairway. we drove up another 40 yards and noticed his ball laying on the cart path in play. It must’ve hit a tree and ricocheted and we didn’t notice. What ball do we play and how does that work? Thanks!
Usually, Once a ball is dropped correctly, it immediately becomes the ball in play regardless of anything else. Also worth noting, since he exhausted his 3 minute search, he cannot play his original ball. It is considered "lost". However, this raises the question: Since, later, it is discovered the ball was never in the Penalty Area, is the drop "legit", or should the dropped ball be abandoned and the Player return to where he hit his previous "2nd shot" and play from that location under stroke and distance penalty? Maybe Jay will see this and clarify.
I wonder if you might help me please. We have had a situation occur within a strokeplay club competition which has brought about much confusion in regard to the rules. The Scenarario: Players have tee'd off, and one of them hits a ball, possibly out of bounds or lost. He declares he will play a provisional ball from the tee and plays it iaw rule 14.4. The provisional ball does not travel as far as his first ball, so he walks up and plays that ball. He then carries on and finds his original ball (in the given 3 minute period) It then comes to light that the second provisional shot played was not with his provisional ball, but that of his opponent. The Conundrum is which rule takes precedent in this situation. Is it per rule 6.3c1, and a two stroke penalty, on top of his hole score, for having played the wrong ball. (The hole being played out with his original ball) Is it no penalty, as the original ball was found and therefore strokes with the provisional ball do not count, regardless of the fact that the wrong ball was played I would be grateful for your assistance in resolving this conundrum
Hi Peter, thanks for the question. The Wrong Ball penalty takes precedence here. Since the Rules allow you to mark and lift the ball to identify it whenever reasonably necessary to do so, there is theoretically no excuse why a player should hit a Wrong Ball. This player gets the General Penalty and must add 2 strokes to the score they made with the original ball.
@@JayRobertsGolf Hi again, The reason that we find it difficult to judge our self in this case was because the sentence in rule 18.3 saying, "All strokes with that provisional ball before it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count." Seems for us that a clearer definitions in what rule take president here could be better defined. 🙂
@@PeterBordahl If you read the sentence that you cite again, I think you'll find that it's pretty clear :) "All strokes with that PROVISIONAL ball..." The player did not make a stroke with their provisional ball. They made a stroke at a Wrong Ball
My golf mates are under the impression that hitting into a Red penalty area allows you to optionally tee up a provisional. And I've always suspected that's not true. I'll have to look up the ruling. I play in a lot of tournaments and each club has a local ruling on out of bounds. With one of these mens club I belong to we are allowed to drop our ball in the fairway no closer to the hole and hit a 4 from there or go back to the tee to hit a 3. I like this ruling it helps speed of play. Any thoughts?
I went through this with a guy I played with in a tournament this past weekend. The reason why you are not allowed to play a provisional for a ball that has gone into a Penalty Area is that it provides a guaranteed result for one of your relief options. Example: Ball goes into a red penalty area. I play a provisional down the fairway. I look for my ball in the red penalty area and find it. I decide to take relief from the penalty area. What are my three options? 1) lateral relief, 2) back on the line, and 3) stroke and distance. Well, i already know where my ball is on the stroke and distance option (the ball i hit as a provisional) so it would be giving me an unfair advantage to choose one of the other two options as a way to improve the outcome of my next stroke. Instead, the player needs to make a decision between the three relief options and play on from there. Does that make sense? And yes, Local Rule E-5 would allow a player to drop a ball within the fairway for a ball that is lost or out of bounds for 2 penalty strokes. This is a new Local Rule that came into play in 2019 designed specifically with pace of play in mind. I think it's helpful for that but it's for more casual play though. Committee procedure recommends not using it for elite level amateur and pro events. Hope that helps!?
Question! Under the new rule, if you know your ball went out OB line, do you have to hit 3rd shot from the tee or you can just take 2 stroke penalty and play from there?
If your ball is OB, you must take Stroke and Distance from the spot where the ball was last played. But, if Model Local Rule (E-5) is in place, you have an additional option of dropping, for 2 penalty strokes, in a relief area that extends from the spot where the ball last crossed the OB line to within 2 club-lengths of the fairway, no closer to the hole 👍 Hope that helps!
@@JayRobertsGolf Thanks for this clarification. I thought that the new Local Rule applied only to balls which may be lost in the General Area (as opposed to OB).
Great videos Jay - both thumbs up. One additional question. I am in the greenside bunker and instead of playing the ball dead at the pin as I usually do, I blade it into the woods behind the green where it can be hard to find a ball. Since the spot in the bunker where I played before is nearer to the pin as the original ball, can I still play a provisional? I actually had this situation and I wanted to play a provisional which could have been a good idea, since a ball dead at the pin would have been a safe 6, instead someone jumped into the woods and found the ball before I could hit the provisional. After I made my way out of the undergrowth I left the green with an 8 (I should have returned to the bunker, but who could have known)
Hey Ulf Hettstedt!! I'll be honest, that's a high-level question that had me scratching my head for a bit until I made the connection within the rules. Here is the definitive answer. It's 100% ok to play a provisional in this case even though the provisional was played at a spot that was closer than where the original ball estimated to be. The reason being is that 18.3c(1) is titled: Playing Provisional Ball MORE THAN ONCE. That "more than once" verbiage is key because it means that the first stroke at a provisional does not apply to 18.3c(2): playing a provisional from a spot nearer the hole than where the original is estimated to be. The only stroke that matters (and what applies to 18.3c(1)) is the 'next' stroke made at the provisional. Phenomenal question. Thanks for the comment. Follow up questions more than welcome if that doesn't make sense!
@@JayRobertsGolf Hi Jay;-another great video, thanks. I get the point of Ulf's question, & the reasoning behind your response. On a connected point, even if Ulf had played his provisional ball from the bunker BEFORE his original ball was found, he would still have had to play his original ball wouldn't he, provided it was identified within 3 minutes? Maybe I'm misinterpreting his comments, but he seems to suggest that if he'd had played his provisional ball BEFORE his original ball had been found, he could continue with his provisional. Anyhow, to avoid the '8' & get the '6', presumably he could have deemed his original ball (now in the woods) unplayable & proceeded under 'stroke & the distance', & returned to the bunker.
@@davidverity9576 Hey David, thanks for the comment and good question. I think you're on it. If he played a provisional before he found it the original, that is ok. But he only get's one stroke at it (the shot from the bunker). If the original is found after the bunker shot, he must abandon the provisional and play the original. On the other hand, if he putted the provisional ball before finding the original, that provisional ball becomes the ball in play under S&D because it was played from a spot closer to the hole than where the original was estimated to be.
@@JayRobertsGolf Thanks for that Jay. What would be the ruling if Ulf had holed the bunker shot? Would he need to have played a stroke from the next tee (or submitted his card if it was the last hole) if he were to 'avoid' playing the original ball from the woods?
Hi Jay, Following up on this video. My friends and I play often, usually a casual round and with a friendly bet. The confusion or disagreement occurs when THEY hit a ball and it is lost in thick rough/tall grass or lost behind the trees that is outside of PA or OB (no stakes marked). For pace of play, I allow them the usual Stroke & Distance and go back to play (1 stroke penalty) or utilize the Local Rule-Alternative to SD, for 2 stroke penalty, however dropping 1 club length in the FW. (NOTE - I don't think it's fair that someone hits a 3W- 250 yards, loses it high in the trees, then go drop for 1 penalty some 250 yards up! (because it is not an PA area). I would guess in organized competition or tournaments, all these would be hashed out and in the rules. So what would be the fair (correct) thing to do when playing a casual round with buddies but with a friendly wager to avoid this scenario. Also, why do courses not have everything marked/staked? Thank you!
Hey RiverRuns! A few things I noticed from your comment.... You initially cited the correct penalty strokes (2) when using MLR E-5 Alternative to S&D or Lost Ball but when you explained why you felt it was unfair, you cited 1PS. If this local rule was only 1PS, I would agree, a completely unfair rule. But, whenever you use E-5, it is 2PS (which is comparable to what could have been achieved if the player had taken S&D relief). Also, the relief area for E-5 is the entire area between the ball reference point and TWO club-lengths into the fairway :) This local rule is appropriate for general play but is not recommended for professional or elite amateur events. Stroke and Distance is the only option. All that said, I'm not sure if I fully understand the situation you are describing. Are you talking about using one over the other? Help me see what I'm missing! As far as course markings (or the lack of), it really boils down to time, money, and resources. There is a cost to mark the course (replacing/adding stakes, reapplying paint, etc.,). It takes a lot of time to correctly mark the course and to furthermore maintain it. And, staff resources can be limited. Golf courses typically have just enough staff to tackle all of the things required to just maintain the place and don't have the luxury to dedicate guys to tackling this aspect. Unless its a course that consistently hosts reputable outside events (competitive events at least), it's just not a high prioritized item. At least that's my thoughts based on my experience.
@@JayRobertsGolf Hi Jay, thanks for the response and sorry if I made it confusing. LOL. I am good with the E-5 Local Rule. What I'm saying is that I disagree with friends that I play with, they hit a shot for example 200 yards up, and lose the ball in thick rough or high in the trees (Not PA, not marked), but they want to go up where they lost it and take just a 1 stroke penalty, and not the 2 strokes penalty. Basically they want to gain advantage of the yardage, whereas if under S&D, they have go back to the same spot for 1 stroke penalty - NOT gaining the yardage. It is casual weekend play with buddies, but when there are side bets (a couple hundred $$), I prefer to enforce those rules, whereas they do not. And as you know strokes can add up! LOL
@@Unplugged704 Ahhhh, I knew you knew the rule which is why I was confused. I just misunderstood what you were saying. My bad. You can probably guess my perspective. The rule is the rule. If you guys all decide to play by the rules, its easy to enforce (just cite the rulebook). If you choose not to play by the rules, you are at the mercy of the terms you decide on before the first tee and chaos inevitably ensues. It sounds to me like they just don't know the rule, which you can easily show. But if they do know the rule but choose not to enforce it, that's a tough situation (and probably a sign not to make large wagers against them lol).
@@JayRobertsGolf I would disagree with your last point. A course that is well and properly marked with stakes one time, does not need much maintenance after that. That first marking of the course should be part of its original setup. After that, minor maintenance is needed and not often. I once (by myself) setup the markings for an entire course that had a sh*t ton of staking requirements. Yes, it was a large one-time effort. After setting up the course with stakes that were properly placed and sturdy and visible, almost nothing was required year after year. A course that is not properly marked is being managed by a person who just doesn't care about the game of golf or the customer. It is Apathy, not resources that is the main culprit.
@@Randsurfer As I said, just my thoughts based on my experiences. Another opinion here although I think you'd agree.... Stakes are great but painted lines (both PA and OB) are preferable, especially for competition rounds. Paint fades after a couple of mows and needs to be reapplied, which could be required on a nearly weekly bases.
Hitting it OB comes with the penalty of Stroke and Distance. So, it's just a one shot penalty (Stroke) but you must then replay your next shot from where you hit it in the fairway (and Distance)!
@@snowsgolfquest5854 You actually don't have a choice. If the ball is OB, the only option is to replay under stroke and distance. With that being said, there is a local rule, called "MLR E-5: Alternative to Stroke and Distance for Lost Ball or Ball Out of Bounds". Under this local rule, there is a an option to simply drop a ball for TWO (2) penalty strokes no closer to the hole than where the ball last crossed the boundary edge and the drop can be up to two club-lengths in the fairway. But, you can't play a provisional and then decide to take the drop if your provisional is found on the course. If that sounds confusing at all, it's worth looking up on the USGA website as they have great diagrams to explain this! 😎👍 Hope that helps? Follow up questions welcomed
Jay, I was golfing with some friends when one hit a ball into the woods and correctly said he was playing a provisional. However, when we walked to the area to which we all knew the ball flew into, he said, "Don't look for it, I am abandoning the ball and will play my provisional". Is that legal? Can a player just "abandon" the ball without a search?
A player may choose to not look for a ball which may be lost, but he cannot specifically prohibit his opponent or fellow competitor(s) from searching for his ball. A player may not "declare" that his ball is lost. If the ball is found by anyone within the search period (3 minutes) then the player must identify it; if identified, he must play that ball and abandon the provisional ball(s). A ball is only deemed to be lost if the player puts another ball in play or plays his provisional ball from a spot past where the original ball is most likely to be.
What about this situation? I hit a ball, not sure if it's in or out of bounds so I hit a provisional. I then find my first ball and it's inbounds but in an unplayable lie and I decide to hit from the previous lie (which I just did with the provisional). Do I have to pick up both the original shot and the provisional and go back to the tee and hit again or do I get to play the provisional?
You nailed it. If you find your original, that ball is in play and your provisional must be abandoned. There is no option to play to play the provisional. If your original is in a tough spot and you decide to take an unplayable by taking stroke and distance, you must head back to the last place you hit to play again. The reason for this is that stroke and distance (one of the 3 relief options for unplayable and what your provisional ball would be using) already gives you a preview/guaranteed outcome of one of your unplayable ball options. Does that make sense? Probably going to do a a video about this soon.
@@JayRobertsGolf That does make sense and is what I thought the rule would be but never heard anyone describe that situation. I'm just now getting back into golf after taking a 25+ year break from it. I've enjoyed your content so far. Keep up the great work!
@@brianh870 Love to hear that you are getting back into the game! I'm sure you'll find it to be just as frustrating as it was 25 years ago LOL. Thanks a lot for the comment 🙌⛳️
I have a question. I had a ball land in a bushy tree. I knew it was up in a tree, but could not see it. I had to drop and hit another ball. I hit the other ball, and within seconds my original ball falls out of the tree. What if the original ball fell out of the tree within the time allotted to find the ball. Could that second ball I hit be called a "provisional" by me? So maybe I should always call it a provisional until my time to hit the ball is up? Can you call for a provisional ball in that situation?
No. Your ball wasn't lost. When you hit the ball into the trees, if you thought it might be lost you could have hit a provisional from the same spot. But once you knew the ball was up in the tree it was not lost; rather, you declared it unplayable. Then you have three relief options (all incurring a one-stroke penalty): two club-lengths laterally from the point directly below where you believe the ball to be; back-on-the-line; or, stroke-and-distance. I presume that when you dropped it was probably two club-lengths laterally. When the dropped ball came to rest in the relief area, it then became the ball in play. When the original ball fell out of the tree it was no longer in play. The harder question is, how long do you have to decide on which type of relief you will take and then drop the ball? If you slow-played that whole routine and the original ball then fell out of the tree before you dropped the new ball, I think you would be entitled to play the original ball without penalty. The three minute time limit only applies to finding your ball, not to making decisions about what to do next.
Not sure I understand the question? If you have interference from an Animal Hole, you'd get free relief under 16.1. Find NPCR and from there one length no nearer the hole. Your relief area can't contain interference from the Animal Hole so it wouldn't be possible to get relief again and again. I might be misunderstanding. Also, the ruling bodies did away with the term Burrowing Animal. It is now "Animal" and "Animal Hole". 👍
@@JayRobertsGolf I've seen areas on golf courses that are not part of the fairway but are littered in "animal holes." If your balls lands in one of these areas your nearest point of relief would be the cart path and then the fairway even though it's 30 feet away. What I'm asking is that you'd be searching over and over and over for your nearest point of relief.
Say you play your 2nd shot from the fairway on a par 5 and put it into the crap and you are going to play a provisional. Do you drop the ball or place the ball?
I almost always carry two different balls in my pocket, but it’s just preference. I never knew this would benefit me for the provisional ball scenario.
In your last scenario, what happens if you think both your original ball and provisionals ball are lost. Can you hit another (2nd) provisional ball? Would that ball be sitting 5?
Absolutely. A second provisional can be played. If the original and first provisional are lost/out of bounds, the second provisional would be in play hitting 5 from tee!
Confused, so I hit my Drive into a surely lost ball location, Not sure if it is in a hazard or OB. I do not hit a provisional because in may be in a hazard. The ball is found out of bounds. I now have to go back to the tee? Seems like a waste of time to me.
You don’t hit a provisional only when you are virtually certain (95% or greater possibility) that it’s gone into a PA. If there is a chance (6% or greater possibility) it’s not in the PA, you may play one.
I prefer to use the traditional white golf ball but after seeing this video, I am going to chuck a few coloured balls into my bag for use as provisionals only. That way there are no possible grounds for argument.
What if you hit a provisional, find your original but it’s unplayable - do you have to take nearest relief on your original and abandon your provisional? Or can you abandon your original?
Good question. If you find your original, it becomes the ball in play (regardless of the shape it's in) and you must abandon your provisional. You do not get to choose which ball to play and you can't 'declare the original lost' (that's not a thing). If your original is unplayable, you'd have to proceed with taking unplayable relief for 1 penalty stroke (either replay last shot, take lateral two club lengths from where original lies, or take back on the line relief). Hope that helps. Appreciate the question!
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks Jay that is really helpful to know. One last follow up, if you hit your first ball off the tee and it is 50/50 if you will find it, can you declare that ball lost and elect your second shot off the tee (third shot with penalties) as your playing ball, or do you always have to make an honest attempt to go and find your first ball no matter what? And do you need a consensus from your playing partners in this case? Many thanks for answering
More great questions. You can never 'declare a ball lost' under any circumstance. A ball can only be ‘lost’ when it is not found within 3 minutes after you (and/or your partner/caddies, if applicable) begin searching for it. As far as searching, you are not required to look for your ball at all. You can even ask your playing partners to not look for it. BUT, they do not have to listen to you. If they find it (even after you've asked them not to look for it), you must abandon the provisional, the original ball is now in play, and must be played. As far as your scenario goes, if you’ve hit your tee shot in the general area (I’m assuming) and believe it could be lost (the 50/50 chance of finding it is irrelevant here), then you would be allowed to play a provisional. But, if you know for a fact that you are not going to play your original (or just don’t want to), I think you’ve got two ways to approach this: 1) Correctly announce play of a “provisional” ball, don’t look for it, ask your playing partners not to look for it, and hope they listen to you (lol). Then once you’ve made a stroke at your provisional ball at a spot that is closer to the hole than where your original ball was estimated to be, your provisional now becomes the ball in play and you can forget the original. Or 2) simply don’t correctly announce provisional. As soon as you make a stroke at the second ball without correctly announcing provisional, that second ball becomes the ball in play by default for the rest of the hole, even if the first ball is found. Long answer but i hope it answered your question and was clear and helpful! Follow up questions welcomed if needed!
Even though one of the Options of Relief for an "Unplayable Ball" IS Stroke and Distance, a Player is NOT Allowed to use the Provisional Ball as the "S and D" choice - Primary because the Provisional Ball is a "Known Result", rather than a "to be determined outcome."
The question is, if you have hit a provisional ball, but find and then find and use your original ball, you do not count the stroke on the provisional? as the second swing (tee +1) on the original ball is the second stroke?
When the original ball is lost, the provisional becomes the ball in play. If the provisional is also lost, you must play the next shot under penalty of stroke and distance. Hitting 5 from the tee!
Jay, question..many say save time, just go up to where you think it went out, lay out and het your 3rd shot, I say no not the rule, whats the best ay to tell your friends..no not the rule …and not bend them out of shape, because they say “that’s how we always played it”. I say its your 4th shot, and pay attention where you play from. What’s your analogy of the rule?
Hey Jack. Kudos to you for protecting the game. If the course has adopted MLR E-5 Alternate to Stroke and Distance or Lost Ball, you’re exactly right. They could drop for two penalty strokes if ball went OB and they’d be hitting 4. Ive found the best and really only way to advise, shall I say stubborn folks lol, is to provide them with a copy of the rule. It’s clearly written that it’s two strokes to drop and not one. Will be curious to know how they react!
Question: On a par 4, I smoke one in the trees. I also hit a provisional shorter than my first one. I hit the provisional a second time and hole it. I don't go look for my first one but my playing partner yels: here is your first one. Am I allowed to say that it's not my ball and write down 4 on my scorecard ?
Great question. Interpretation 18.3c(2)/4 gives us guidance on this one. Sadly, your original ball becomes your ball in play (hitting 2) despite you having holed the provisional. You (the player) are not required to search for your ball. And you can even ask people to not look for it but they don't have to oblige to your request. If the original ball is found, it becomes your ball in play. The only way that the score with a holed provisional will stand is if you are able to lift the ball from the hole BEFORE the original is found. The rules consider lifting the ball from the hole as the same as making a stroke (aka you'd be making a stroke at a ball that is closer to the hole than where your original ball is estimated to be).
What surprised me, when I took up golf and learnt about provisional balls, was that there is no obligation on a player to look for his original ball. So if you cream your provisional onto the green, albeit under a stroke and distance penalty, you might just decide that the forest where you hit your original ball is going to be so difficult to escape from that you'd rather not find the original.
I think my ball is lost on a par 3. I announce provisional ball. I hit it and it goes into the hole for a par. I never look for my ball because I’ve made a par. Legal?
Player hits a provisional assuming he hit his original out of bounds. He looks for the original for 3 minutes and cannot find it. He then hits his provisional onto the green. He did not declare hitting his provisional a second time was provisional. While walking up to the green he finds his original ball and wants to abandon the provisional. Can he?
No. As soon as his 3 minute search time expired, the original became a Wrong Ball and must not be played. He must finish the hole with the provisional ball. Btw, It’s not necessary to announce provisional when hitting the provisional more than once.
I know this is an old video, so just to clarify; didn't they remove requirement of "clearly stating provisional" this year? Which would make sense as it's usually not in players interests to leave the original unsearched (as in most cases you'd probably be hitting that third one closer to hole than the provisional drive... unless it's an unplayable lie or a thick bush).
It's an older video for the channel but all still 2019 rules. The player is still required to correctly announce the play of a provisional. Interestingly though, the player is not required to search for their original but if ANYONE finds the ball, the player must identify it and if it's theirs, it's now their ball in play they must continue with. You can ask someone to not search for it but they don't have to listen!
What about the situation when you know if you can't find it, it's in the penalty area. But from the tee box, your group is can't see where exactly did it enter the penalty area? It can be a drive that's sliced or hooked but it could be somewhere within 100 yards. In this situation, shouldn't you hit a provisional ball even though you're virtually certain the ball went to the penalty area?
They key word here is Virtually Certain that it's in the penalty area. If that exists, you would not be allowed to play a provisional. At that point, your only option is to take relief under Rule 17 for penalty areas (S&D, Lateral, Back on the Line). There are many times when a player may not know exactly where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA so it's up to the player to use their best reasonable judgment, while considering all of the available facts, to make the best determination possible where the ball last crossed.
@@JayRobertsGolf even if it means somewhere within 100 yards? I think some people at my club are thinking you need to see where it goes so that it can be estimated where to continue
@@jaygroov You don't have to physically see it cross. That is why Virtual Certainty exists. And its highly unlikely that you'll have a 100 yard window of where it might have crossed. Even on the blindest of shots, if you have virtual certainty that it's in the penalty area, it shouldn't be difficult to make a reasonable guess as to where it crossed based on angle, flight and path of ball, club, etc.
@@JayRobertsGolf yeah a 50-yard range is probably quite safe based on knowing your distances, how it felt and what the shot shape is. Anyway thanks for the very informative and clear videos. Often the rules content is kind of vague with details or doesn’t deal with some scenarios. You clearly set out to solve the rules debates once and for all. Much appreciated!
@@jaygroov I really appreciate that and agree with you. All of the golf rules content I have seen seem to leave the viewer with more questions than answers. I'm determined to change that! I thank you for the support! 😁🏌️♂️
I wish "stroke and distance" term was explained. If the tee shot was indeed lost and player hit a provisional...will he be lying 2 or 3 when he next steps up and addresses his provisional ball??
4 questions: 1) The guys I played with do not say the word "Provisional" but instead, they say " P BALL" , Is that considered declaring provisional? 2) When we hit the ball Out of Bound, can we go to the point of entry of the OB and play the next shot under Stroke and Play with 2 stroke penalty? 3) When we hit the ball into the woods or rough and could not find the ball and there is no marking of the Penalty Area or OB, It is considered lost ball. Can we play the next shot under Stroke and Play with 2 stroke penalty? we T-off first shot and later t-off with 2 provisional, knowing that we lost the first ball and first provisional ball, we shall be hitting the 2nd provisional ball, are we hitting the 6th shot?
Great questions: 1) 18.3b states that the player must "use the word "provisional" OR otherwise clearly indicate that he or she is playing the ball provisionally". I'd rule that saying "P BALL" clearly indicates the player is playing a ball provisionally so therefore a correct announcement 2) It is possible to take a drop for TWO penalty strokes if you hit it OB or lose it BUT Model Local Rules E-5 must be in play. You'd need to check with your course or the committee that is running the event (this local rule is generally widely adopt for general course play) 3) If you hit it into the woods and can't find it after 3 minutes of searching, and the wooded area is not marked as a Penalty Area or Out of Bounds, the ball is Lost. Must replay under Stroke and Distance or take a drop for TWO penalty strokes if the Local Rule is in play. If you've hit 2 provisional balls and are unable to find the Original or the 1st provisional, the 2nd provisional ball would be in play and you would be hitting 5 from the tee (1st stroke lost, take a penalty under S&D so 3rd stroke from tee which also becomes lost, add another penalty under S&D, so you'd be hitting 5 from the tee).
I am taking the usga online webinars about the rules. Your explanations are 10 times better.
Tripping that PRO V1s are in the word PROVIsional 🤯🤯
My joke is that the people who play Pro-V1s are the ones who constantly play provionals
Thanks, Jay every time I watch one of your videos I find out something new keep them coming.
Well done, excellent explanation. Didn't know there were so many provisional rules.
You’re killing’ it with these videos ‘Sox. 🏆
Great video, man. The drone view with the edits are top quality!
Appreciate that bud! Glad it was helpful. Thanks for the comment!
I absolutely adore your rule explanations. Thanks
Thanks man I really appreciate it!! Many more to come!
one of your best Jay. congratulations!
Jay, this is an excellent video explaining the provisional ball rules. There are a lot rules vids out there but find your technique and delivery is easy to follow and interesting. Do another!
Thanks very much! I appreciate the comment!
You are the best I've seen on the rules. Great job!
That means a lot, David! Thank you for the comment ⛳️🙌
This was enlightening! A good reminder to mark your provisional ball to differentiate it from your original. Thanks 😊!
Thanks, Mike! Appreciate the comment!
Getting better and better. Soon to become the gold standard in rules referral! Thanks for such great editing!
Awesome comment. Thank you very much!
Great video! We were always taught to say provisional and make sure people heard it before striking another ball, AND to use a ball marked with a P, indicating provisional. In fact, before every round of golf, I make sure to have no less than 3 balls marked with a P just for this purpose, and they are kept in a different place from the rest of my balls so they don't get accidentally used.
You were taught well! That's a great strategy to protect your card. Thanks for the comment, Charlie!!
When I play, I mark my original balls with a black or blue marker but, I mark a sleeve of balls with a red marker to be used if I need to hit a provisional.
@@charlieodom9107 We use pink balls for provisional shots. P for Pink. Impossible to mess up
best explanation of this ive seen .. thanks!
I never thought to mark the provisional. Thank you brother ! Rock on \m/
Thanks for the comment! Hit em straight! ⛳️👍
@@JayRobertsGolf *fingers crossed* brother
Every ball you play should be marked so that it can be distinguished uniquely, even from your own balls.
I learned a lot here. Well done.
Thanks for making that easy.
I'll need to go back over this video a couple of times and take notes.
I’m just going to have you in my group from now on.
Loving the channel!
Thanks for the comment, Dustin!
Dude, you are a natural. These are clear explainations and the production is top notch. The combination of live action (you), the drone perspective, and the actual rules from the book is a powerful combination for learning.
Thanks a lot for the comment, Eric. That feedback means a lot! 👊⛳️
Thanks for posting this and breaking it down so well
Thank you, appreciate the comment!
Great video, clarified everything so well. Would be great to see other rules situations done as well
Great add on about being able to prove which is the Original Ball vs. the Provisional Ball.
I play Pro V1x and I buy # 23 by the dozen as my Playing Ball, and I also pick up a Sleeve of # 4 and use the 4s as my Provisional.
This way I can Mark both identically - as mine - and still tell the difference.
That's a pro move!
@@JayRobertsGolf I have two Granddaughters. One's Birthday is the 4th, the Other's is the 23rd.
Easy to buy a dozen 23's - Pro V1x - even easier to buy a sleeve of 4's 😉
Great explanation
Glad you liked it
Great video! Thanks
Very informative video, love the use of overhead drone footage, it really adds to the video 👍👍👍
I appreciate that. Thanks for the comment!
Curious here, at 2:30 you talk about the penalty area down the left side of the fairway and how you can’t take a provisional if you hit or think you hit into that penalty area. However, on the other side of that penalty area there are houses. It’s not inconceivable to think that on the other side of that penalty area those yards would be marked OB. Can a player play a provisional if they think the hit it so far left that it’s over the penalty area and OB in a backyard?
Jay, you may have found your calling, these are outstanding! Keep it up, great stuff.
I appreciate you Billy V!!
"I have never once seen anyone blow one that far right into this penalty area."
Hold my beer...!
Lmao. I would love to see it! Beer on me!
1) Great video. I love the simple but thorough explanation and visuals.
2) Scenario I’ve been trying to get an answer to but not sure if I’m over thinking. Can someone call “provisional” on a second or third stroke? Example - I hit a great tee shot middle of fairway. My second shot from fairway, I hit it potentially OB or nervous it’ll be lost. Can I play a provisional on that second shot from fairway? Every video/forum only talks about off the tee box but none say you can play a “provisional” from the fairway.
You absolutely can. For any shot that you think is OB or lost, you may play a provisional 👍🏼
@@JayRobertsGolf thank you for the quick response! Now I have my ammo for playing partners who say provisionals are only for “tee shots”. Thanks!
Great explanation, Jay. Couple of weird scenarios: Slice original ball into the general area; Slice provisional ball #1 into the general area again; Hit provisional ball #2 onto the fairway; Scenario #1: cannot find the original ball & provisional ball #1; walk up to provision ball #2. I guess I'm hitting my 6th shot now? Scenario #2: I am able to find the original ball. So I can play my 2nd shot and abandon provisional ball #1 & #2?
Yes. You always give priority to Original ball if found. If original not found, priority goes to Provisional 1 and so on.
One way to think of it: Provisiona #1 is only a provisional for the original ball.
Provisional #2 is only a Provisional for Provisional #1 and has no other relationship to any other ball.
Provisional #3 is only a Provisional for Provisional #2 and has no other relationship to any other ball.
I once watched a guy in a tournament hit 5 balls off the tee. There's no way he paid attention to the markings of each ball, he was fuming, so the result during his search was bound to be a cluster F. I did not follow to witness that.
Hi Jay, question came up and would love some clarity
If your tee shot has to clear water but you didn’t make it over, so in the drop zone area, can you retee or you must drop ball?
Thank you for this clarification (which i did know but reminder well worth it). One question, if your ball ends up resting against an OB marker post? I know (unlike a penalty marker) you can't move an OB stake if it interferes with your swing, but not sure what to do if it actually rests against it (on the inbound side...). Appreciate your advice on this one! Cheers, Mike
Unfortunately, it's a tough spot. OB stakes (boundary objects) must be treated as immovable so you can't move it like you said. You can play it as it lies and if you move the stake during the stroke, that's ok no penalty. If the stakes interference creates too much of a problem for the next stroke, you can take an Unplayable Lie 🤷♂️
@@JayRobertsGolf Cheers Jay ... thought that may be the case. Find your rulings invaluable as I'm a vice captain of our club and need to be as up to date as possible on the rules
@@mikehogan1257 I appreciate that, Mike! I'm in a similar role at my club so I get it! More videos are on the way!
@@JayRobertsGolf here's one you may be interested in ..a great frustration in our club in AKL NZ! Our club is on clay based land and in many spots drainage is a major issue in winter. some areas very close to fairways and greens get so boggy a) green staff can't get mowers in, and b) suckered balls simply disappear. In some cases a missed green by a metre or so will result in lost ball.... deeply frustrating! Many members try and claim "Abnormal Ground Condition" and are entitled to a free drop (if marker agrees), but we have to insist that rule only applies to casual water, immovable objects, GUR and animal holes so unless casual water is actually clear and obvious, no relief. Next issue is we have been told by NZ Golf we are unable to declare a local rule allowing the free drop as rules of golf won't allow this (as the 4 options above are only ones allowed under 16.1 .We have to rely on ground staff marking as many of these areas as possible as GUR but that in mid winter is a major issue in itself, result being frustrated members Interested in your thoughts on this one! Cheers, Mike
Here's an example:
Let's say I hit my tee shot on a par 3 and I think I've hit it into water. And I want to play from the tee again as my third shot. So I play that one onto the green. But then I get down by the green and find that my original ball stayed up.
As you said in the vid, I wasn't playing a provisional when I re-teed because you can't play a provisional when you think your ball is in a penalty area. So, am I allowed to continue with my original ball and pick up the other? Do I have the option to play on with the re-teed ball that I hit onto the green? Or am I obliged to continue with that ball because I hit it and it wasn't as provisional?
When you made a stroke at the second ball from the tee, you took stroke and distance. That is now your ball in play and the original ball automatically becomes a Wrong Ball that must not played, even if you find it and want to play it
Whats the rule if you hit a tee shot into the general area call that you are playing a provisional and hit it in the same area so you play another provisional which goes straight into the fairway no problem. You then go to look for your original ball and the first provisional to no avail. Is the third provisional ball thats sitting in the fairway considered hitting your fourth or do you get a penalty for the first provisional as well so will be hitting 6?
If the first ball is lost, the provisional becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. If the provisional becomes lost, the second provisional also becomes the ball in play under penalty of stroke and distance. That ball in the fairway lies 5 and you are hitting 6!
@@JayRobertsGolf Hey Jay. In this scenario the player hits 2 provisionals, first one went into the General Area, second to the FW.
Despite hitting 2 provisionals, should we look and find the original ball, we can still play that, hitting 2, correct?
@@Unplugged704 That would be correct. Despite hitting a provisional ball, if the original ball is found, you must play from the FW hitting 2!
Jay, a situation that happened to me last weekend. My playing partner pushed his second shot into the deep woods to the right of the fairway. He played a provisional and hit that ball up close to the green. He then found his original ball in the deep woods but declared it unplayable and chose to play his provisional ball near the green. I had always heard that if you find your original ball, then that is the ball in play. If you declare it unplayable, THEN you go back and hit another one. You can't retroactively use your provisional that was hit when you thought your ball may be lost. Seems like he got two bites at the apple. Knowing that he already hit a good provisional could have influenced his decision to declare his other ball unplayable. Neither one of us knew for sure about how to handle it.
If you find the original ball, that ball is in play and the provisional must be abandoned no matter what.
This is covered by 18.3c(3)/1: "Provisional Ball Cannot Serve as a Ball in Play if Original Ball is Unplayable or in a Penalty Area", which reads:
"A player is only allowed to play a provisional ball if he or she believes the original ball might be lost outside a penalty area or might be out of bounds. The player may not decide that a second ball he or she is going to play is both a provisional ball in case the original ball is lost outside a penalty area or out of bounds and the ball in play in case the original ball is unplayable or in a penalty area.
If the original ball is found in bounds or is known or virtually certain to be in a penalty area, the provisional ball must be abandoned."
So, you were exactly right, well done! 👌⛳
@@JayRobertsGolf A further scenario. Supposing the player makes no attempt whatsoever to find the initial ball knowing that the provisional shot was near the green, is that in the rules? What rules are in place to "force" the player to look for the ball?
@@KennyReid1969 There isn't a Rule that forces or requires a player to look for the ball. It's up to the player whether or not they want to look. They can also ask others to not look for it, but they don't have to oblige. If I asked you to not look for the ball, and you look anyway and find it, I am required to identify the ball. If it's mine, it becomes the ball in play. 18.3c(2)/2
@@JayRobertsGolf 18.3c(3)/1 is a useless rule then. Nobody is going to search for the ball that was likely lost after the provisional ball is positioned better, if - after finding the ball that was considered lost - you need to abandon the provisional. In both cases you get one stroke added.
@@Falquiboy Not exactly. Consider this....
I hit the first ball way right into the woods. Likely lost, so I play a provisional and stripe it down the fairway.
If I play the provisional, I'm hitting 4. BUT, if I find the first and it's in halfway decent shape, I could punch out to where the provisional ball is. Then i'd be hitting 3 (instead of 4). So there are MANY situations where someone would search for a ball that might be lost despite the fact that the provisional is in A1 shape.
Great explanation on how to use a provisional. My confusion is why you would want to use it. I mean, unless you flub a 100 yd into unknown territory, it seems taking a drop is always preferable to a provisional. In the scenario he presented here, his shot that took his ball past the lost ball was lying 4, hitting 5. If he took a drop immediately and barely made it to the spot where his provisional was, he'd be lying 3 hitting 4. What am I missing?
He can't take a drop off a lost ball. He would need to know where the ball is to determine nearest point of relief. The new local rule can help with this as it allows you to drop at a similar distance to the lost ball and hit 4. However under competition rules this is not permitted and he would need to return to the tee to take stroke and distance. Hence hit a provisional in case stroke and distance becomes necessary in which case you have already taken it.
For the bonus tip if you slice the first drive and slice the provisional to the roughly the same area can u not take another provisional as there is a chance u might not find either.
Absolutely. 18.3a "If a provisional ball itself might be lost outside of a Penalty Area or out of bounds, the player may play another provisional. The provisional then has the same relationship to the first provisional as the first one has to the original ball".
I know you are not supposed to hit a provisional if you hit into a penalty area. However, there is a course I play a couple of times a year that one of the par 4's tee shots has a long carry over a marsh area. I have seen where a player would hit a low line drive that goes to where the marsh (penalty area) ends on the other side and you can't see if the ball stayed in the penalty area or if it made it just on the other side due to the tall grass. Even though the carry might be only 200 yds the cart path has to go way out of the way to get around the marsh and to the other side. Is there any rule in the book that might allow a provisional in this case to keep from having to go look first and then driving all the way back to the tee if it did indeed stay in?
if you find and play your original, is there still a stroke penalty for hitting a provisional? also, (forgive me, this is dizzying to a relatively new golfer) where are the penalties incurred under stroke and distance if you play and keep your provisional? +1 off the tee (hitting 2nd shot) i get, but where is the 2nd penalty from in your example that you'd be hitting 5? +1 for lost ball?
Sorry for the delay! 1) No, there is no penalty for hitting a provisional but end up playing your original. Provisionals are always free unless you end up playing it. 2) Think of the Stroke and Distance penalty as applying 1 Penalty Stroke for putting a new ball in play but you also lose the benefit of distance since you have to play another ball from the location of your last shot, which in this case is the teeing area, and 3) So in this example, I hit my original ball right into an area and it's lost. That's one stroke. I apply a penalty stroke for putting a new ball into play at the tee. There's two strokes. I then hit my ball from the teeing area, thats three strokes. I advanced my ball down the fairway, that's my fourth stroke. So my next stroke would be 5. Hope that helps and welcome any follow up questions!
tee shot with the provisional is 3rd shot not 2nd
A related question. When you play your provisional ball in this situation, before reaching your 1st ball, but that provisional ball turns out to be a stray ball. A wrong ball. Because a few yards further along you find your provisional. What is the ruling? And when you reach your 1st ball and find it, are the provisional strokes abandoned? Thanks.
Jay if I find both my original ball and Pb, and my PB is nearer to the hole than the original ball, if a play the PB is that now a WB that must be abandon?
Great question. If you FIND your original ball, your provisional ball would become be a wrong ball that must be abandoned and not played. If you played your provisional ball after finding your original ball, it would be a wrong ball. R18.3.
just wondering if you're obligated to look for the original if it's nothing but crap and an unplayable area. Can you declare it lost and move to provisional? What if your playing competitor looks and finds it, but you want nothing to do with the original?
Absolutely great video You have a new Fan!! Question? if you search for your ball and you declare the ball is lost and you say I am playing now my Provisional ball, the 3 min is not quite over and some one finds your ball Do you have to play that ball? although you declared it lost believing 3 min has past!
Hi Paula. Thanks for the comment!
Per the definition of Lost, a ball does not become lost as a result of the player declaring it to be lost. In other words, declaring a ball lost doesn't change the status of the ball. So, if your original ball is found within the 3-minute search time, it remains your ball in play and the provisional ball must be abandoned. Hope that helps
@@JayRobertsGolf Thank you that helps !! ⛳️🏌🏻♀️🥰
Thank you for this! Can you please cover hazards and Out of Bounds? Like what if a course doesn't have any markings like stakes or painted lines? What is the penalty for a ball you hit in the water hazard or goes OB? I always played the line the ball went in the water one club length drop no closer to the hole from where it went out with a one stroke penalty but was told the other day that is a two stroke penalty and nothing is very clear that I'm finding.
That's a bunch of questions. I'll try some:
1. A course with no markings, someone at that course should be fired after being flogged. Complain. No excuse for that. I'm not a fan of complainers but this is an egregious sin.
2. "Hazard" term no longer used. New term is "Penalty Area". It includes things like bodies of water, but can include much more than that.
3. Even if unmarked, certain bodies of water can be assumed to be Penalty Areas, eg., a lake or pond or a river. The margin or boundary of such an unmarked Penalty area is where the ground clearly "drops off" or descends from the General area toward the body of water. This can still be quite a distance from the actual edge of the water.
4. Generally, if no OB is marked, there is no OB. Play the entire course as General Area until marked otherwise. However, there are obvious areas that should be considered OB even if not marked, for example, a ball beyond a wall or fence that marks the golf course property boundary. Or, a ball in somebody's yard who has a house near the golf course property. Just use common sense here.
5. The potential 2-stroke penalty you mentioned is an option only for balls lost or OB and ONLY if there is a specific Local Rule that provides that as an OPTION. If there is no local rule, that option does not exist. Without that explicit local rule, Play lost or OB balls in the traditional way and forget you ever heard about anything else. For more details, look up that Local Rule description in the Rules of Golf. Balls lost in water (Penalty Area) carry a one stroke penalty if relief is taken, just like always.
Sorry for missing your comment, flibjabber. Penalty Areas and OB videos are coming soon. In the meantime, Randsurfer provided some helpful, accurate answers! Thanks for the comment!
@@Randsurfer thank you!
1:40 - Jay Roberts: "This penalty area is so far right it is virtually unreachable." Me: "Hold my beer."
So if I hit a provisional ball and find my first ball I can say it is unplayable and if the 2 clubs or backwards in line with flag do not help me- I have to go back with stroke and distance and hit another one from where my first ball landed in the unplayable spot? I cant play my provisional further?
Hi, i have a situation. Please help.
Im on a par 3 and i have to hit a ball over a water hazard with tall grasses at the far edge. So I hit my ball from the tee and it may have just got over the hazard but it may not have? We cannot tell until we go look. I do not want to declare it in the hazard until i have gone to check. But its too long a walk to go there and bsck if i have to.
What are my options now?
Do i have to hit a provisional from the tee?
But if it was in hazard I would be able to drop the next ball in drop zone or on the line it crossed the hazard. That’s a shorter more preferable distance. But my colleagues say i cannot hit a provisional at those shorter distances.
So do I have to declare it in the hazard to get a shorter drop penalty? What if i then go up to the green and npw see the original ball just past the water hazard?
This is actually a tricky question. First, there aren't hazards anymore only penalty areas (red and yellow). Let's assume for this that the water is marked as a yellow penalty area (if it is red you potentially have one extra relief option). Now, if you know or are virtually certain that you hit it in the penalty area you cannot hit a provisional. You must either hit it where it lies or take one of the two relief options under a one-stroke penalty: back-on-the-line or stroke-and-distance. In your example you also have the local rule drop zone option.
However, if you aren't sure that you hit it in the penalty area and you might have lost it somewhere outside the penalty area, you can hit a provisional. But this is where it gets tricky. Say you hit a provisional, and then you go and look for your ball and can't find it. At this point you can hardly say, "Well it must have gone into the penalty area." Rather, you have to play it as a lost ball because you are not virtual certain it is lost in the penalty area. Therefore your provisional is now in play.
What you clearly cannot do is hit a provisional and then decide to abandon the provisional and drop a ball as though it went in the penalty area. You also can't play a 'provisional' shot from the drop zone as if you went in the penalty area and then go looking for the original like it didn't go into the penalty area.
So for counting purpose. Ball A is stroke one. Stroke two is to Tee up another ball, Stroke 3 is hitting the provisional. You go out and can't find Ball A, so you're hitting your provisional for 4? Is that correct?
We had this scenario play out last weekend during an official tournament event. I sure wish I had seen this video prior to the scenario playing out.
Which scenario? Not able to differentiate between original and provisional?
What do I do when I hit my provisional ball in the same direction as my original ball? Can I play provisional ball #2 (or even more) from the tee? If I cannot find my original and prov #1 and do find my prov #2, what is my penalty count? Do I add up the strokes? Or is it still my 3rd stroke when I continue to play with prov #2? Thanks for your response and all your video’s!
You can hit as many provisionals as needed. If both your original ball and first provisional ball are lost, you would play the second provisional but you would be hitting 5 from the tee (The original ball becoming lost means your provisional is in play under penalty of stroke and distance. If the provisional ball is also lost, your second provisional would become the ball in play but also under stroke and distance). Hope that helps??
@@JayRobertsGolf Yes, thank you!
My brother and I are arguing over what stroke it is hitting provisional and using it, off the tee! Can you help us? Thanks.
3. First tee shot is 1. Penalty for stroke and distance is 2. So you would be hitting 3 from the tee
Can you always re-tee under penalty of course if you dont like the shot you hit?
Yes, you can take stroke and distance at ANY time and for any reason.
On the hole you're playing it looks like it would be difficult to see whereabouts a ball may cross the penalty area. I get the point you made earlier about the almost certainty that the ball would be in the penalty area but if the ball could not be seen into the penalty area and subsequently not found (to enable an approximate point of entry) is the only option to play stroke and distance (ie back to the tee) ? Note: I think there is a local rule available when it is not possible to see the penalty area (not possible to ascertain the point of entry) that allows a provisional to be played.👍
The local rule you’re referring to allows the player to hit a provisional for a ball may have gone into a penalty area but it doesn’t address the situation of not physically seeing the ball cross or determining point of entry. This local rule is rarely used though. There are many penalty areas that are either hidden or make it impossible to see where the ball actually crossed. All you must do is use your best reasonable judgement to estimate where it crossed. You don’t have to physically find your ball to take relief for a penalty area. Does that help?
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks yes! The course I play has a few such penalty areas (without the local rule) perhaps drop zones would help as there can be confusion where to take relief?
I think the local rule allows a provisional but should you find the ball in the penalty area you play it as it lies or take the provisional? 👍🏻
Maybe in addition to your last part. To prevent these situations I've got always three balls with two numbers in my pocket. eg. two 3 and one 2. So in the highly unlikely scenario that I slice one into the woods I know exactly which number is the original and I have an identifiable ball for the provisional directly at hand.
That’s good practice as well!
Keep in mind, just because you are playing a Pro-V #2, that doesn't mean the Pro-V #2 you find is actually yours, even though it is likely. The proper method is to mark you ball using some marking device (most use a Sharpie) with a distinctive identifying mark.
I buy my Pro V1x Balls all numbered 23, by the dozen. I buy a 3 Ball Sleeve of Number 4's as my Provisionals.
23's and 4's all have the same "Dot Pattern Marking" of my own, to Identify as Mine.
I choose 23 and 4 because my Two Granddaughters birthdays are the 23rd and the 4th. 😊
You missed out on how to handle multiple provisional balls.
If I blast my first ball out of bounds, then I blast my first provisional out of bounds, then I hit a second provisional straight down the fairway, am I now playing my 6th shot from the fairway or my fourth shot, in other words is my second provisional a provisional for my first or is it an alternative provisional for my original tee shot?
This scenario happens a lot on my course, OB is very close to a fairway the whole length of a par 5, thanks
There are no freebies. You're hitting 6. Each ball relates to the previous ball. First ball OB. Second ball OB. Third ball down the fairway.
This may have been covered in video but im very new to this but my question is...
If you tee off and you dont think the ball is lost, but when you go towards the area of where the ball landed and you cant find it, what is the penalty for not taking a provisional?
If you can’t find it, you take stroke and distance by playing again from where you last played
My partner hit his second shot in a tall grassy area then chose to hit a provisional. The first provisional he hit went into a different grassy area, then he proceeded to hit another provisional which he hit in play and was further than his original ball. We then proceeded to look for his original ball which he found and that's the one he played. My question is how many provisional balls can you hit before you have to commit to one of the provisional balls even if you find your original ball.
Here is my question/scenario?
So If I hit my driver 280-310 , and I happen to slice one into a woods.
so I hit a provisional 3W straight 250 and then I could potentially chip up 30 yards or so to get me closer but without penalty or counting the stroke? assuming my original ball is 280-310 yards and still closer to the hole ?
Second question if that’s not a stroke… would it have to be on the same surface? Let’s say provisional is at 250 in the rough could I chip it into fairway?
I’m talking to your hypothetical statement at 5:56. Or did I misunderstand and those strokes all count when you top it but if you find the original you go back to hitting number 2 ?
Question regarding something that happened on the course today. My playing partner hit the ball into the woods on his second shot on a par 5 marked with red hazard area. we looked around in the woods for three minutes, couldn’t find it, and he took a drop. He hit his ball out into the fairway. we drove up another 40 yards and noticed his ball laying on the cart path in play. It must’ve hit a tree and ricocheted and we didn’t notice. What ball do we play and how does that work? Thanks!
Usually, Once a ball is dropped correctly, it immediately becomes the ball in play regardless of anything else.
Also worth noting, since he exhausted his 3 minute search, he cannot play his original ball. It is considered "lost".
However, this raises the question: Since, later, it is discovered the ball was never in the Penalty Area, is the drop "legit", or should the dropped ball be abandoned and the Player return to where he hit his previous "2nd shot" and play from that location under stroke and distance penalty?
Maybe Jay will see this and clarify.
I wonder if you might help me please. We have had a situation occur within a strokeplay club competition which has brought about much confusion in regard to the rules.
The Scenarario:
Players have tee'd off, and one of them hits a ball, possibly out of bounds or lost. He declares he will play a provisional ball from the tee and plays it iaw rule 14.4. The provisional ball does not travel as far as his first ball, so he walks up and plays that ball. He then carries on and finds his original ball (in the given 3 minute period)
It then comes to light that the second provisional shot played was not with his provisional ball, but that of his opponent.
The Conundrum is which rule takes precedent in this situation.
Is it per rule 6.3c1, and a two stroke penalty, on top of his hole score, for having played the wrong ball. (The hole being played out with his original ball)
Is it no penalty, as the original ball was found and therefore strokes with the provisional ball do not count, regardless of the fact that the wrong ball was played
I would be grateful for your assistance in resolving this conundrum
Hi Peter, thanks for the question. The Wrong Ball penalty takes precedence here. Since the Rules allow you to mark and lift the ball to identify it whenever reasonably necessary to do so, there is theoretically no excuse why a player should hit a Wrong Ball. This player gets the General Penalty and must add 2 strokes to the score they made with the original ball.
@@JayRobertsGolf Hi again, The reason that we find it difficult to judge our self in this case was because the sentence in rule 18.3 saying, "All strokes with that provisional ball before it was abandoned (including strokes made and any penalty strokes solely from playing that ball) do not count." Seems for us that a clearer definitions in what rule take president here could be better defined. 🙂
@@PeterBordahl If you read the sentence that you cite again, I think you'll find that it's pretty clear :)
"All strokes with that PROVISIONAL ball..."
The player did not make a stroke with their provisional ball. They made a stroke at a Wrong Ball
My golf mates are under the impression that hitting into a Red penalty area allows you to optionally tee up a provisional. And I've always suspected that's not true. I'll have to look up the ruling.
I play in a lot of tournaments and each club has a local ruling on out of bounds. With one of these mens club I belong to we are allowed to drop our ball in the fairway no closer to the hole and hit a 4 from there or go back to the tee to hit a 3. I like this ruling it helps speed of play. Any thoughts?
I went through this with a guy I played with in a tournament this past weekend. The reason why you are not allowed to play a provisional for a ball that has gone into a Penalty Area is that it provides a guaranteed result for one of your relief options.
Example: Ball goes into a red penalty area. I play a provisional down the fairway. I look for my ball in the red penalty area and find it. I decide to take relief from the penalty area. What are my three options? 1) lateral relief, 2) back on the line, and 3) stroke and distance. Well, i already know where my ball is on the stroke and distance option (the ball i hit as a provisional) so it would be giving me an unfair advantage to choose one of the other two options as a way to improve the outcome of my next stroke. Instead, the player needs to make a decision between the three relief options and play on from there. Does that make sense?
And yes, Local Rule E-5 would allow a player to drop a ball within the fairway for a ball that is lost or out of bounds for 2 penalty strokes. This is a new Local Rule that came into play in 2019 designed specifically with pace of play in mind. I think it's helpful for that but it's for more casual play though. Committee procedure recommends not using it for elite level amateur and pro events. Hope that helps!?
Question!
Under the new rule, if you know your ball went out OB line, do you have to hit 3rd shot from the tee or you can just take 2 stroke penalty and play from there?
If your ball is OB, you must take Stroke and Distance from the spot where the ball was last played.
But, if Model Local Rule (E-5) is in place, you have an additional option of dropping, for 2 penalty strokes, in a relief area that extends from the spot where the ball last crossed the OB line to within 2 club-lengths of the fairway, no closer to the hole 👍 Hope that helps!
@@JayRobertsGolf
Thanks for this clarification. I thought that the new Local Rule applied only to balls which may be lost in the General Area (as opposed to OB).
@@kyle381000 It applies to both! Out of Bounds and Lost Ball. 👌
Great videos Jay - both thumbs up. One additional question. I am in the greenside bunker and instead of playing the ball dead at the pin as I usually do, I blade it into the woods behind the green where it can be hard to find a ball. Since the spot in the bunker where I played before is nearer to the pin as the original ball, can I still play a provisional?
I actually had this situation and I wanted to play a provisional which could have been a good idea, since a ball dead at the pin would have been a safe 6, instead someone jumped into the woods and found the ball before I could hit the provisional. After I made my way out of the undergrowth I left the green with an 8 (I should have returned to the bunker, but who could have known)
Hey Ulf Hettstedt!! I'll be honest, that's a high-level question that had me scratching my head for a bit until I made the connection within the rules. Here is the definitive answer. It's 100% ok to play a provisional in this case even though the provisional was played at a spot that was closer than where the original ball estimated to be. The reason being is that 18.3c(1) is titled: Playing Provisional Ball MORE THAN ONCE. That "more than once" verbiage is key because it means that the first stroke at a provisional does not apply to 18.3c(2): playing a provisional from a spot nearer the hole than where the original is estimated to be. The only stroke that matters (and what applies to 18.3c(1)) is the 'next' stroke made at the provisional. Phenomenal question. Thanks for the comment. Follow up questions more than welcome if that doesn't make sense!
@@JayRobertsGolf Absolutely logical, thank you for the effort thinking this through. 👍👍
@@JayRobertsGolf Hi Jay;-another great video, thanks. I get the point of Ulf's question, & the reasoning behind your response. On a connected point, even if Ulf had played his provisional ball from the bunker BEFORE his original ball was found, he would still have had to play his original ball wouldn't he, provided it was identified within 3 minutes? Maybe I'm misinterpreting his comments, but he seems to suggest that if he'd had played his provisional ball BEFORE his original ball had been found, he could continue with his provisional.
Anyhow, to avoid the '8' & get the '6', presumably he could have deemed his original ball (now in the woods) unplayable & proceeded under 'stroke & the distance', & returned to the bunker.
@@davidverity9576 Hey David, thanks for the comment and good question. I think you're on it. If he played a provisional before he found it the original, that is ok. But he only get's one stroke at it (the shot from the bunker). If the original is found after the bunker shot, he must abandon the provisional and play the original.
On the other hand, if he putted the provisional ball before finding the original, that provisional ball becomes the ball in play under S&D because it was played from a spot closer to the hole than where the original was estimated to be.
@@JayRobertsGolf Thanks for that Jay. What would be the ruling if Ulf had holed the bunker shot? Would he need to have played a stroke from the next tee (or submitted his card if it was the last hole) if he were to 'avoid' playing the original ball from the woods?
Yah, what’s the total penalty for taking the provisional ball with stroke and distance. Do you add 1 or 2 strokes
Hi Jay,
Following up on this video. My friends and I play often, usually a casual round and with a friendly bet. The confusion or disagreement occurs when THEY hit a ball and it is lost in thick rough/tall grass or lost behind the trees that is outside of PA or OB (no stakes marked). For pace of play, I allow them the usual Stroke & Distance and go back to play (1 stroke penalty) or utilize the Local Rule-Alternative to SD, for 2 stroke penalty, however dropping 1 club length in the FW. (NOTE - I don't think it's fair that someone hits a 3W- 250 yards, loses it high in the trees, then go drop for 1 penalty some 250 yards up! (because it is not an PA area). I would guess in organized competition or tournaments, all these would be hashed out and in the rules.
So what would be the fair (correct) thing to do when playing a casual round with buddies but with a friendly wager to avoid this scenario. Also, why do courses not have everything marked/staked?
Thank you!
Hey RiverRuns! A few things I noticed from your comment....
You initially cited the correct penalty strokes (2) when using MLR E-5 Alternative to S&D or Lost Ball but when you explained why you felt it was unfair, you cited 1PS. If this local rule was only 1PS, I would agree, a completely unfair rule. But, whenever you use E-5, it is 2PS (which is comparable to what could have been achieved if the player had taken S&D relief). Also, the relief area for E-5 is the entire area between the ball reference point and TWO club-lengths into the fairway :)
This local rule is appropriate for general play but is not recommended for professional or elite amateur events. Stroke and Distance is the only option.
All that said, I'm not sure if I fully understand the situation you are describing. Are you talking about using one over the other? Help me see what I'm missing!
As far as course markings (or the lack of), it really boils down to time, money, and resources. There is a cost to mark the course (replacing/adding stakes, reapplying paint, etc.,). It takes a lot of time to correctly mark the course and to furthermore maintain it. And, staff resources can be limited. Golf courses typically have just enough staff to tackle all of the things required to just maintain the place and don't have the luxury to dedicate guys to tackling this aspect. Unless its a course that consistently hosts reputable outside events (competitive events at least), it's just not a high prioritized item. At least that's my thoughts based on my experience.
@@JayRobertsGolf Hi Jay, thanks for the response and sorry if I made it confusing. LOL. I am good with the E-5 Local Rule.
What I'm saying is that I disagree with friends that I play with, they hit a shot for example 200 yards up, and lose the ball in thick rough or high in the trees (Not PA, not marked), but they want to go up where they lost it and take just a 1 stroke penalty, and not the 2 strokes penalty.
Basically they want to gain advantage of the yardage, whereas if under S&D, they have go back to the same spot for 1 stroke penalty - NOT gaining the yardage.
It is casual weekend play with buddies, but when there are side bets (a couple hundred $$), I prefer to enforce those rules, whereas they do not. And as you know strokes can add up! LOL
@@Unplugged704 Ahhhh, I knew you knew the rule which is why I was confused. I just misunderstood what you were saying. My bad.
You can probably guess my perspective. The rule is the rule. If you guys all decide to play by the rules, its easy to enforce (just cite the rulebook). If you choose not to play by the rules, you are at the mercy of the terms you decide on before the first tee and chaos inevitably ensues. It sounds to me like they just don't know the rule, which you can easily show. But if they do know the rule but choose not to enforce it, that's a tough situation (and probably a sign not to make large wagers against them lol).
@@JayRobertsGolf I would disagree with your last point. A course that is well and properly marked with stakes one time, does not need much maintenance after that. That first marking of the course should be part of its original setup. After that, minor maintenance is needed and not often. I once (by myself) setup the markings for an entire course that had a sh*t ton of staking requirements. Yes, it was a large one-time effort. After setting up the course with stakes that were properly placed and sturdy and visible, almost nothing was required year after year. A course that is not properly marked is being managed by a person who just doesn't care about the game of golf or the customer. It is Apathy, not resources that is the main culprit.
@@Randsurfer As I said, just my thoughts based on my experiences. Another opinion here although I think you'd agree.... Stakes are great but painted lines (both PA and OB) are preferable, especially for competition rounds. Paint fades after a couple of mows and needs to be reapplied, which could be required on a nearly weekly bases.
On the fairway after tee shot. If you hit OB is two shot or one shot penalty.???
Hitting it OB comes with the penalty of Stroke and Distance. So, it's just a one shot penalty (Stroke) but you must then replay your next shot from where you hit it in the fairway (and Distance)!
@@JayRobertsGolf if you chose not to go back then is it two strokes?? And thanks for replying
@@snowsgolfquest5854 You actually don't have a choice. If the ball is OB, the only option is to replay under stroke and distance. With that being said, there is a local rule, called "MLR E-5: Alternative to Stroke and Distance for Lost Ball or Ball Out of Bounds". Under this local rule, there is a an option to simply drop a ball for TWO (2) penalty strokes no closer to the hole than where the ball last crossed the boundary edge and the drop can be up to two club-lengths in the fairway. But, you can't play a provisional and then decide to take the drop if your provisional is found on the course. If that sounds confusing at all, it's worth looking up on the USGA website as they have great diagrams to explain this! 😎👍 Hope that helps? Follow up questions welcomed
@@JayRobertsGolf Awesome. Thanks for your time and effort!!
@@snowsgolfquest5854 Of course! Thanks for the comments!
Jay, I was golfing with some friends when one hit a ball into the woods and correctly said he was playing a provisional. However, when we walked to the area to which we all knew the ball flew into, he said, "Don't look for it, I am abandoning the ball and will play my provisional". Is that legal? Can a player just "abandon" the ball without a search?
A player may choose to not look for a ball which may be lost, but he cannot specifically prohibit his opponent or fellow competitor(s) from searching for his ball. A player may not "declare" that his ball is lost. If the ball is found by anyone within the search period (3 minutes) then the player must identify it; if identified, he must play that ball and abandon the provisional ball(s).
A ball is only deemed to be lost if the player puts another ball in play or plays his provisional ball from a spot past where the original ball is most likely to be.
What about this situation? I hit a ball, not sure if it's in or out of bounds so I hit a provisional. I then find my first ball and it's inbounds but in an unplayable lie and I decide to hit from the previous lie (which I just did with the provisional). Do I have to pick up both the original shot and the provisional and go back to the tee and hit again or do I get to play the provisional?
You nailed it. If you find your original, that ball is in play and your provisional must be abandoned. There is no option to play to play the provisional. If your original is in a tough spot and you decide to take an unplayable by taking stroke and distance, you must head back to the last place you hit to play again.
The reason for this is that stroke and distance (one of the 3 relief options for unplayable and what your provisional ball would be using) already gives you a preview/guaranteed outcome of one of your unplayable ball options. Does that make sense? Probably going to do a a video about this soon.
@@JayRobertsGolf That does make sense and is what I thought the rule would be but never heard anyone describe that situation. I'm just now getting back into golf after taking a 25+ year break from it. I've enjoyed your content so far. Keep up the great work!
@@brianh870 Love to hear that you are getting back into the game! I'm sure you'll find it to be just as frustrating as it was 25 years ago LOL. Thanks a lot for the comment 🙌⛳️
I have a question. I had a ball land in a bushy tree. I knew it was up in a tree, but could not see it. I had to drop and hit another ball. I hit the other ball, and within seconds my original ball falls out of the tree. What if the original ball fell out of the tree within the time allotted to find the ball. Could that second ball I hit be called a "provisional" by me? So maybe I should always call it a provisional until my time to hit the ball is up? Can you call for a provisional ball in that situation?
No. Your ball wasn't lost. When you hit the ball into the trees, if you thought it might be lost you could have hit a provisional from the same spot. But once you knew the ball was up in the tree it was not lost; rather, you declared it unplayable. Then you have three relief options (all incurring a one-stroke penalty): two club-lengths laterally from the point directly below where you believe the ball to be; back-on-the-line; or, stroke-and-distance. I presume that when you dropped it was probably two club-lengths laterally. When the dropped ball came to rest in the relief area, it then became the ball in play. When the original ball fell out of the tree it was no longer in play.
The harder question is, how long do you have to decide on which type of relief you will take and then drop the ball? If you slow-played that whole routine and the original ball then fell out of the tree before you dropped the new ball, I think you would be entitled to play the original ball without penalty. The three minute time limit only applies to finding your ball, not to making decisions about what to do next.
Can you hit another provisional ball if you hit your first provisional out also?
Yes
How about "burrowing animal?" Can you get relief again and again and again until you get 15 or 20 feet from your ball?
Not sure I understand the question? If you have interference from an Animal Hole, you'd get free relief under 16.1. Find NPCR and from there one length no nearer the hole. Your relief area can't contain interference from the Animal Hole so it wouldn't be possible to get relief again and again. I might be misunderstanding.
Also, the ruling bodies did away with the term Burrowing Animal. It is now "Animal" and "Animal Hole". 👍
@@JayRobertsGolf I've seen areas on golf courses that are not part of the fairway but are littered in "animal holes." If your balls lands in one of these areas your nearest point of relief would be the cart path and then the fairway even though it's 30 feet away. What I'm asking is that you'd be searching over and over and over for your nearest point of relief.
@@noonespecial8891 Interesting. What kind of animal was making the holes?
@@JayRobertsGolfI'd guess gophers, voles, squirrels, rabbits and the like ...
5:50 what if i walk to ball A, dont even use a provisional ball and cant find ball A even though i know for a fact its not OOB?
Say you play your 2nd shot from the fairway on a par 5 and put it into the crap and you are going to play a provisional. Do you drop the ball or place the ball?
Drop. Rule 14.6b. 👍
I almost always carry two different balls in my pocket, but it’s just preference. I never knew this would benefit me for the provisional ball scenario.
In your last scenario, what happens if you think both your original ball and provisionals ball are lost. Can you hit another (2nd) provisional ball? Would that ball be sitting 5?
Absolutely. A second provisional can be played. If the original and first provisional are lost/out of bounds, the second provisional would be in play hitting 5 from tee!
Confused, so I hit my Drive into a surely lost ball location, Not sure if it is in a hazard or OB. I do not hit a provisional because in may be in a hazard. The ball is found out of bounds. I now have to go back to the tee? Seems like a waste of time to me.
You don’t hit a provisional only when you are virtually certain (95% or greater possibility) that it’s gone into a PA. If there is a chance (6% or greater possibility) it’s not in the PA, you may play one.
I prefer to use the traditional white golf ball but after seeing this video, I am going to chuck a few coloured balls into my bag for use as provisionals only. That way there are no possible grounds for argument.
Not a bad idea at all 😎⛳️
What if you hit a provisional, find your original but it’s unplayable - do you have to take nearest relief on your original and abandon your provisional? Or can you abandon your original?
Good question. If you find your original, it becomes the ball in play (regardless of the shape it's in) and you must abandon your provisional. You do not get to choose which ball to play and you can't 'declare the original lost' (that's not a thing). If your original is unplayable, you'd have to proceed with taking unplayable relief for 1 penalty stroke (either replay last shot, take lateral two club lengths from where original lies, or take back on the line relief). Hope that helps. Appreciate the question!
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks Jay that is really helpful to know. One last follow up, if you hit your first ball off the tee and it is 50/50 if you will find it, can you declare that ball lost and elect your second shot off the tee (third shot with penalties) as your playing ball, or do you always have to make an honest attempt to go and find your first ball no matter what? And do you need a consensus from your playing partners in this case? Many thanks for answering
More great questions. You can never 'declare a ball lost' under any circumstance. A ball can only be ‘lost’ when it is not found within 3 minutes after you (and/or your partner/caddies, if applicable) begin searching for it.
As far as searching, you are not required to look for your ball at all. You can even ask your playing partners to not look for it. BUT, they do not have to listen to you. If they find it (even after you've asked them not to look for it), you must abandon the provisional, the original ball is now in play, and must be played.
As far as your scenario goes, if you’ve hit your tee shot in the general area (I’m assuming) and believe it could be lost (the 50/50 chance of finding it is irrelevant here), then you would be allowed to play a provisional. But, if you know for a fact that you are not going to play your original (or just don’t want to), I think you’ve got two ways to approach this: 1) Correctly announce play of a “provisional” ball, don’t look for it, ask your playing partners not to look for it, and hope they listen to you (lol). Then once you’ve made a stroke at your provisional ball at a spot that is closer to the hole than where your original ball was estimated to be, your provisional now becomes the ball in play and you can forget the original. Or 2) simply don’t correctly announce provisional. As soon as you make a stroke at the second ball without correctly announcing provisional, that second ball becomes the ball in play by default for the rest of the hole, even if the first ball is found.
Long answer but i hope it answered your question and was clear and helpful! Follow up questions welcomed if needed!
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks a lot for clarifying, really good to understand this part of the game as it has always been a grey area for me.
Even though one of the Options of Relief for an "Unplayable Ball" IS Stroke and Distance, a Player is NOT Allowed to use the Provisional Ball as the "S and D" choice - Primary because the Provisional Ball is a "Known Result", rather than a "to be determined outcome."
If l lose my ball and say "provisional ball " it's still costs me a penalty stroke does it not? Sorry I'm a beginner
The question is, if you have hit a provisional ball, but find and then find and use your original ball, you do not count the stroke on the provisional? as the second swing (tee +1) on the original ball is the second stroke?
That's correct. If you find your original, the provisional must be abandoned and the strokes taken with the provisional do not count.
What about both balls are lost, can't find neither one of them, how do you count the stroke?
When the original ball is lost, the provisional becomes the ball in play. If the provisional is also lost, you must play the next shot under penalty of stroke and distance. Hitting 5 from the tee!
Jay, question..many say save time, just go up to where you think it went out, lay out and het your 3rd shot, I say no not the rule, whats the best ay to tell your friends..no not the rule …and not bend them out of shape, because they say “that’s how we always played it”. I say its your 4th shot, and pay attention where you play from. What’s your analogy of the rule?
Hey Jack. Kudos to you for protecting the game. If the course has adopted MLR E-5 Alternate to Stroke and Distance or Lost Ball, you’re exactly right. They could drop for two penalty strokes if ball went OB and they’d be hitting 4. Ive found the best and really only way to advise, shall I say stubborn folks lol, is to provide them with a copy of the rule. It’s clearly written that it’s two strokes to drop and not one. Will be curious to know how they react!
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks
Question: On a par 4, I smoke one in the trees. I also hit a provisional shorter than my first one. I hit the provisional a second time and hole it.
I don't go look for my first one but my playing partner yels: here is your first one. Am I allowed to say that it's not my ball and write down 4 on my scorecard ?
Great question. Interpretation 18.3c(2)/4 gives us guidance on this one. Sadly, your original ball becomes your ball in play (hitting 2) despite you having holed the provisional.
You (the player) are not required to search for your ball. And you can even ask people to not look for it but they don't have to oblige to your request. If the original ball is found, it becomes your ball in play.
The only way that the score with a holed provisional will stand is if you are able to lift the ball from the hole BEFORE the original is found. The rules consider lifting the ball from the hole as the same as making a stroke (aka you'd be making a stroke at a ball that is closer to the hole than where your original ball is estimated to be).
What surprised me, when I took up golf and learnt about provisional balls, was that there is no obligation on a player to look for his original ball. So if you cream your provisional onto the green, albeit under a stroke and distance penalty, you might just decide that the forest where you hit your original ball is going to be so difficult to escape from that you'd rather not find the original.
There's also nothing stopping your opponent from finding your first ball for you.
I think my ball is lost on a par 3. I announce provisional ball. I hit it and it goes into the hole for a par. I never look for my ball because I’ve made a par. Legal?
Player hits a provisional assuming he hit his original out of bounds. He looks for the original for 3 minutes and cannot find it. He then hits his provisional onto the green. He did not declare hitting his provisional a second time was provisional. While walking up to the green he finds his original ball and wants to abandon the provisional. Can he?
No. As soon as his 3 minute search time expired, the original became a Wrong Ball and must not be played. He must finish the hole with the provisional ball.
Btw, It’s not necessary to announce provisional when hitting the provisional more than once.
What does under stroke and distance mean?
You might find this helpful!
ua-cam.com/users/shorts_37itwokdPA?feature=share
1:40 hold my beer
I know this is an old video, so just to clarify; didn't they remove requirement of "clearly stating provisional" this year? Which would make sense as it's usually not in players interests to leave the original unsearched (as in most cases you'd probably be hitting that third one closer to hole than the provisional drive... unless it's an unplayable lie or a thick bush).
It's an older video for the channel but all still 2019 rules. The player is still required to correctly announce the play of a provisional. Interestingly though, the player is not required to search for their original but if ANYONE finds the ball, the player must identify it and if it's theirs, it's now their ball in play they must continue with. You can ask someone to not search for it but they don't have to listen!
What about the situation when you know if you can't find it, it's in the penalty area. But from the tee box, your group is can't see where exactly did it enter the penalty area? It can be a drive that's sliced or hooked but it could be somewhere within 100 yards. In this situation, shouldn't you hit a provisional ball even though you're virtually certain the ball went to the penalty area?
They key word here is Virtually Certain that it's in the penalty area. If that exists, you would not be allowed to play a provisional.
At that point, your only option is to take relief under Rule 17 for penalty areas (S&D, Lateral, Back on the Line). There are many times when a player may not know exactly where the ball last crossed the edge of the PA so it's up to the player to use their best reasonable judgment, while considering all of the available facts, to make the best determination possible where the ball last crossed.
@@JayRobertsGolf even if it means somewhere within 100 yards? I think some people at my club are thinking you need to see where it goes so that it can be estimated where to continue
@@jaygroov You don't have to physically see it cross. That is why Virtual Certainty exists. And its highly unlikely that you'll have a 100 yard window of where it might have crossed. Even on the blindest of shots, if you have virtual certainty that it's in the penalty area, it shouldn't be difficult to make a reasonable guess as to where it crossed based on angle, flight and path of ball, club, etc.
@@JayRobertsGolf yeah a 50-yard range is probably quite safe based on knowing your distances, how it felt and what the shot shape is. Anyway thanks for the very informative and clear videos. Often the rules content is kind of vague with details or doesn’t deal with some scenarios. You clearly set out to solve the rules debates once and for all. Much appreciated!
@@jaygroov I really appreciate that and agree with you. All of the golf rules content I have seen seem to leave the viewer with more questions than answers. I'm determined to change that! I thank you for the support! 😁🏌️♂️
Invite me down to that course, I bet I could hit that right-side penalty area.
Great video. One question with provisional balls is there a rule about using the same club or is a player allowed to use a different club? Thank you
Good question. A player is allowed to use a different club when hitting a provisional, no problem. Thanks for the comment!
provisional balls will also help you find your first one if you use the same club due to distance
That depends greatly upon the Strike you put on Both Shots.
After playing a Provisional Ball and the golfer found his ball in the penalty area instead of a general area and what are the options of relief?
I'm sure that is another video.
I wish "stroke and distance" term was explained. If the tee shot was indeed lost and player hit a provisional...will he be lying 2 or 3 when he next steps up and addresses his provisional ball??
See if this helps! ua-cam.com/users/shorts_37itwokdPA?feature=share
Is the whole course a sand trap? Is there no grass?
4 questions: 1) The guys I played with do not say the word "Provisional" but instead, they say " P BALL" , Is that considered declaring provisional? 2) When we hit the ball Out of Bound, can we go to the point of entry of the OB and play the next shot under Stroke and Play with 2 stroke penalty? 3) When we hit the ball into the woods or rough and could not find the ball and there is no marking of the Penalty Area or OB, It is considered lost ball. Can we play the next shot under Stroke and Play with 2 stroke penalty? we T-off first shot and later t-off with 2 provisional, knowing that we lost the first ball and first provisional ball, we shall be hitting the 2nd provisional ball, are we hitting the 6th shot?
Great questions:
1) 18.3b states that the player must "use the word "provisional" OR otherwise clearly indicate that he or she is playing the ball provisionally". I'd rule that saying "P BALL" clearly indicates the player is playing a ball provisionally so therefore a correct announcement
2) It is possible to take a drop for TWO penalty strokes if you hit it OB or lose it BUT Model Local Rules E-5 must be in play. You'd need to check with your course or the committee that is running the event (this local rule is generally widely adopt for general course play)
3) If you hit it into the woods and can't find it after 3 minutes of searching, and the wooded area is not marked as a Penalty Area or Out of Bounds, the ball is Lost. Must replay under Stroke and Distance or take a drop for TWO penalty strokes if the Local Rule is in play.
If you've hit 2 provisional balls and are unable to find the Original or the 1st provisional, the 2nd provisional ball would be in play and you would be hitting 5 from the tee (1st stroke lost, take a penalty under S&D so 3rd stroke from tee which also becomes lost, add another penalty under S&D, so you'd be hitting 5 from the tee).
Thank you for the clarification. ❤
Challenge accepted. Please let me know what the course is and what hole has the unreachable penalty area.