This is fantastic. Such a simple explanation of the rule and deals with all the silly questions that people follow up with after explaining it as well. Awesome job!
Thanks a lot, Craig!! I try my best to hit everything I can without fluffing so the viewer feels confident about the rule rather than feeling the need to ask a bunch of clarifying questions (but questions are welcomed of course). Really appreciate the comment.
I’ve just “discovered” you Jay! I have to say, this really is superbly presented with clarity and insight. Thanks for doing these. Keep up the good work. I’m hooked! 👍🏻
Thanks John! This local rule is popular and frequently adopted (at least in the competitions I play in) so it's a good one to look into for your daughter's events under the Terms of the Competition provided to players. BUT, just read carefully because the Committee can modify this rule even further and require the ball to be in the "General Area cut to fairway height or less" (this includes fringe). For example, in this video, if my ball was in the same position but in the rough, no relief!
Great explanation for a rule I wasn't clear about. And timely. There was just a PGA tournament on TV where a player had a chip shot with a sprinkler head in his line of play, and he landed his chip in the sprinkler head and high grass around the head, and the ball jumped a couple of feet straight left and stopped short of the green. I wondered why he didn't take relief, so it looked like the either the local rule wasn't in effect, or the ball was more than 2 clubs away from the sprinkler head. Hard to tell from the TV angle, and I don't remember hearing the announcers clarify except that the player had missed his landing spot short by a couple of feet.
Good explanation I can see dropping on the left or right becoming a contentious issue and the Queensberry Rules having to be applied to settle any ambiguities.
Love this rule. I was in exactly that situation just off the green in a medal. The putter was the safe choice. I asked my two playing partners for a ruling on relief and was told emphatically that there was none. Holed my little 9 iron chip. They were very quiet for the next couple of holes.
Excellent video. In general, many people don't know there is no "line of Play" relief for immoveable obstructions, eg., OB stakes, electrical boxes, toilet huts, etc.
Agreed. I try to explain it by comparing it to a cart path (IO). If you didn't have interference by the cart path but had to hit a shot over one, do you get relief because it's on your line? Course not! Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for this.. really well explained and clear. Need to check my clubs local rule as I’ve seen very ‘liberal’ interpretations of this situation / rule from time to time.
Excellent video series. Much appreciated. In this particular case, if the golfer chose to drop to the right of the sprinker and then the sprinkler then interfered with the golfer's stance, would there then be further relief or would dropping where there is interference be illegal because you're not taking complete relief?
You nailed it. This local rule is an extra option under 16.1. When taking relief it must be complete relief from everything (lie, stance, swing, and in this case line of play). You shouldn't' have interference at all after you drop. Thanks a lot for the comment and question!
Nice video with a concise explanation. The one question I have if after you drop the ball are you allowed to change your next from a putt to a say a chip with an iron. What would happen in that case. Thanks Jay.
The Rules do not govern how the player must play their shot. Therefore, you may play the ball however you like (putt, chip, etc.) after you've taken relief, regardless of what your initial intention was beforehand.
Jay, thanks for the great video. I think you may have touched on this, but if your NPCR with the local rule caused you to have to step on the sprinkler head, you'd have to live with that stance? Am I correct? Thanks.
Hey Burns, the Local Rule simply adds an additional 'interference" category. So when taking relief (just as you would normally from a sprinkler head), you must be completely free of all types of interference (lie, stance, swing, {and line of play in this case}. Therefore, you should not have any interference after you drop. If you do, the ball has not come to rest in the Relief Area. That help?
Very helpful. From what I gather, then, it doesn't matter that you could chip over the sprinkler head. Sounds like it would still be an obstruction for this local rule.
Good day. Your ball is in thick rough at the edge of the fairway but not a penalty area and there is casual water, does the relief area has to be in the rough?
A couple years later, just had a thought. Worth mentioning that after taking relief, the golfer is not obligated to use the same club or make the "same shot" as he desired prior to taking relief.
There's another condition that would have been useful to explain where relief from a sprinkler head in the line of play is possible without local rule F5. Consider a green shaped like a letter C. The pin is near the top right of the green and the ball is at rest in the bottom right of the green. That brings the interior part of the C, which is the general area and not the putting green in a direct line between the ball and the pin. If there's a sprinkler head in that part of the general area between the ball and the pin on the intended line of play, then relief from the abnormal condition would be available. This situation is similar to the case of greens with two pins (a single green that serves two holes) when one pin is on the line of intended play between the ball at rest on the green and the pin allocated to the current hole being played. This is particular situation exists only because the ball is at rest on the putting green. If the ball is at rest in the general area, then this video clip provides a complete and accurate rendering of the applicable rules.
Soppose the flag would be 15 yards to the left but it is a very very sloped green. So my intended direction of play would be the same as in this video. Do I still take relief the same way. Or as I now can see the hole without the obsctruction (as it's 15y to the left) am I not allowed to take relief? So "the line of play" is that the intended line of play or the shortest view to the hole?
Thanks for your rules explanations. This one is great for me as my course has this local rule in place for regular play. In your example, if you had chosen to take the drop in the relief area to the right and you are then standing on the sprinkler head, do you get further relief?
Hey Michael, thanks for the comment! So, if you take relief for line of play and still have interference with stance after the drop, that means you haven't correctly found the nearest point of complete relief. This local rule is an additional relief option under 16.1a and when you take relief under 16.1a you must take 'complete relief' meaning that your nearest point of complete relief (NPCR) from the sprinkler head must not have any interference with lie, stance, swing, as well as line of play in this case. From that NPCR, you get one club length so no matter where the ball is in in the relief area, you should have no interference. Does that make sense?
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks for the reply. I think it makes sense. But if what you are saying is the case, then some of the area you show in your graphic on the right of the sprinkler may not actually be the legal relief area. Is that right?
@@michaellortz6365 It is possible that if the ball was in the right portion of the relief area and in the bottom left hand corner I could still have interference with my line of play but it may also look like that because of the camera angle. The principle of the rule is true and the graphic was more so to demonstrate the fact that there are areas that can't be included in the relief area for continued interference
Hey Jay/. Revisiting this rule. When courses adopt those local rules, are they always posted on the scorecards or would one have to check with the office to be certain? I would think it be printed on the scorecards
Ideally, they would be printed on the scorecard or posted on a bulletin somewhere. That's certainly not always the case. Probably not even most of the time. You could always ask the pro shop though. In many tournaments though there should be a Terms of the Competition provided to the players and the local rules for that event would be listed there.
Question about scorecards and rule 3.3b(3)/1. We have 3 nines at our course. In scoring, the marker enters scores on the wrong nine and the player attests the score even though on the wrong nine. Is the player DQ if not corrected before submitting the card.
The act itself of returning the card won't get the DQ. As long as you haven't left the scoring area, you can still make changes to the card. Only once you've left the scoring area has the card been "returned" and no more changes allowed. The key part I think you want to look at is "if the mistake is not corrected AND a hole score is lower than actually taken on that hole, then the player is DQ'd." For example, On hole #1, I made 5. On hole #10, I made 4 But on the card, I have the scores for the nines swapped so it reads 4 on hole #1 and 5 for hole #10. Because I returned the card with a score (4) lower than what I actually made (5), I'm DQ'd.
I caddied for a friend a couple of years ago in a local US Open qualifier event and they had this local rule spelled out on the rules sheet just the way he explained it in the video so I believe he is absolutely correct.
@@Unplugged704 Mike is no longer there 😢 he left about two years ago and got out of the golf industry entirely. He's doing great though and very happy and still comes out every now and then!
In the initial example, without the local rule, you showed that we cannot get relief as the sprinkler head doesn't interfere with our intended swing. What if i pulled out a wedge instead of a putter? Wedge may take some turf during impact then hit the sprinkler. Can i take relief then? Also, can i choose to use the putter after relief, or do i need to use the wedge as it was used to determine intended swing?
The player's entitlement involves the club he INTENDS on playing. While the player can assert that he intends on playing a club a certain way, such action would have to be judged as being reasonable. Using a wedge instead of a putter would be considered just a matter of choice, i.e., reasonable. Even a 3-wood is sometimes played in this situation. However, I don't see how club selection would affect the example shown in the video. The sprinkler is recessed. There is no way any club will hit it on the follow through, unless the player takes a 6-inch deep divot... and that would only happen if the player is horribly skilled or if the player intended to hit the ball to Moscow! As to changing clubs after taking relief, conditions dictate which club you choose. Before taking relief, you're forced to use a lofted club, therefore you're entitled to relief using the lofted club. After you've taken relief, conditions allow you to play a putter, therefore you are entitled to play the putter.
What if my intent was to chip but the sprinkler head was within 2 clubs of the green. The sprinkler head was right where I wanted to land the ball. Can I get relief from this situation? I wasn't sure so I chipped over the sprinkler head to avoid a weird bounce. But I would have preferred the relief and not to have to worry.
That's awesome. I won't be out there for a little bit unfortunately. On an extended stay out of state but will be back early 2022. Hope we get to cross paths. Make some birdies for me!
Good question. The default wording in this Model Local Rule does not require the ball to be in the "General Area cut to fairway height or less" (closely mown). However, the Committee may alter the wording to make that a requirement in order to take relief so always wise to double check the wording when this Rule is in play.
What if the sprinkler head was very near the green and your one club length allowed you to drop on the putting green, which is a different surface than the first cut where your ball originally sat. Are you allowed to change surfaces when taking relief?
In this example the chosen club was the putter so the local rule came into play. However, if a wedge or chip shot was contemplated, then the sprinkler head wasn't really effecting your shot. Does the local rule apply (complete relief) irrespective of which shot / club you decide to use?
Hey Greg, this is irrespective of the shot or club you choose. So in this same example, if I intended to chip the ball, I'd still get relief. Furthermore, after relief is taken, I am not forced to use the shot/club I initially intended to hit. In other words, if I intended to putt the ball and took relief, I could then chip it. And vice versa.
2 Question: is it just the physical sprinkler head that must be in line of play, or can it be the unnaturally sloping shape of the ground around the sprinkler that might affect the line of the putt and the break? Second, what happens if you go through this whole process, then honestly and ethically change your mind, maybe after seeing someone chip on a similar line, and want to chip instead of a putt?
Great questions. 1) it is the physical sprinkler head that must be in your line of play. Under Immovable Obstruction/1 (an Interpretation), the "turf around the obstruction is not part of the obstruction". 2) after you have taken relief, you are free to hit any shot that you want. Going from putting to chipping is perfectly fine.
This is an excellent explaination. What is frustrating is that the "local rule" isn't the actual rule. It's an example of a bad rule. No way you should have to chip over that sprinkler head with the ball that close.
Jay, is that a CGA cap (Carolinas Golf Assn) cap you're wearing? Also,within the the semicircle (darkened area) of the relief area and also in the undarkened strip behind the sprinkler head in your video...if the drop were to put your ball more than 2 club lengths from the sprinkler head, would that be considered "complete relief" ?
It is CGA! Nice eyes. Might be making some videos with them soon! As far as your question (if I understand correctly) the distance from the sprinkler head is irrelevant. The distance of one club-length is measured from the NPCR. As long as my ball is within that area, it doesn’t matter how far or close it is to the sprinkler head. Is that what you’re asking?
@@JayRobertsGolf I think I heard you say the ball needs to be within 2 club lengths of the sprinkler head to get relief. So would it be legal to drop in that undarkened strip if it puts the ball more than 2 club lengths away?...Love golf rules! Most people don't play by them and don't understand there always is a reason they are so specific.
The gap in the relief area represents incomplete relief because the sprinkler head would be in your line of play still. There is nothing to do with 2 club lengths for the relief area only when determining if you get relief (ball must be within 2 club lengths to get relief). Sorry if I’m still not understanding!!
If you say, "hey, I wanted to putt this and therefore get relief", once you drop your ball in the new location, are you still required to putt it since those were your original intentions? Or, if maybe after you drop the ball, it's sitting down in a little bowl or taller grass, can you then elect to chip? I know in your example, there was no tall grass or any weird undulation that the ball sat in after the drop, just wondering if it were the case, must you still play it as you intended to, for which reason you got the relief?
I would bump and run an 8 iron from both spots so the sprinkler head wouldn't be in play on any shot if hit properly and cleanly, BUT I would feel way more confident with relief as 1 in 20 shots result in a duff top shot which would fetch the sprinkler in to play. With relief the ball would still get to the hole with no risk, i would feel more confident aswell
What is "line of play"? Is it the intended line of the ball or a straight line from ball to cup? I remember Annika being told that line of sight was not the same as the ball path she wanted to play.
Question about when marking the ball on the right side of the sprinkler. You marked complete relief just outside of the sprinkler but if you dropped it where you placed the tee wouldn't you have your stance affected by the sprinkler? If so, wouldn't you be required to mark further out to the right to gain "complete relief"? Thanks for the helpful content!
That would entail a completely separate drop to do it correctly if you were in a tournament. Because you would take the first drop and once the ball is in play, then start the process over and then determine if it qualifies for a second drop due to stance interference. Playing a casual round, you could skip the extra step to keep up the pace of play and no one would care. Just think of it as two completely different drops for the different criteria met for getting relief.
I think I watched all of your videos this evening 😅 great stuff! Please see my comment regarding penalty areas and out of bounds on your provisional ball video. I NEED answers.
Thanks so much! I really appreciate that and sorry for the delay. Penalty Areas are high on the list but there is a ton to cover and I want it to be great so it's a work in progress. Stay tuned and thanks so much for the support!
We have adopted such a local rule as we have double sprinklers on our green fringes. The fourth requirement (at our golf club) is that the ball needs to be in a closely mown area.
That is a common adaptation to this local rule. “Closely mown areas” is no longer recognized in the rules though. Instead, it is referred to as “areas cut to fairway height or less” 👍🏼
Very interesting, but I have a question about water, or more specific Temporary water, in Fl we get a lot of rain and sometimes our water hazards are over filled with water, they even cover the base of trees. We all know that trees aren’t planted in water so at that time we have a temporary accumulation of water. If your ball say rolls in the water but is not where the normal water line is can you get free relief ? Now we all agree if you hit a ball past the normal water line you are out of luck. Any opinions on this? Thanks 😊
No opinions on this one. Just facts 😄 the penalty area is defined by an edge. Usually stakes or lines. If water overflows from it onto the course (general area) and your ball went into that area of water, you’re in temporary water. free relief!
Correct me if I'm wrong on these points (or confirm): 1) you marked a 180 deg arc, but this close to the green you could technically do more like 200 deg or even a little more. If you did this on the right side, measuring "distance to hole" it would put you almost even with the sprinkler head. I thought of this because ideally you don't want to putt through more fringe than necessary 2) if you dropped to the right and it resulted in the sprinkler head now being in your stance you could then take relief again, this time from the new placement, potentially allowing you to improve your line noticeably by removing some break
Hey Gary, 1) you’re thinking about it correctly I think. Imagine attaching a string to the flag and making a straight line to the NPCR. While the string is attached to the flag you can walk one club-length left and right to create the flat edge portion of the relief area. But at 25 yards away from the flag and only one club-length left and right it’s not going to create much curvature and remain relatively straight if that makes sense 2) even though we are taking relief from the sprinkler head for line of play, when you take relief for an abnormal course condition, the NPCR must be clear of ANY interference (lie, stance, swing) so if after dropping the ball and you still have interference with your stance, that means the NPCR wasn’t correct. No matter where the ball is dropped in the relief area, it should give you complete relief
@@JayRobertsGolf Ah, ok. I had just watched your vid on taking a lost ball drop on the cart path and assumed that you would take relief twice, just like that scenario.
@@garyco766 That's a good observation. The difference with the cart path video is that I am operating under two different rules. I first must take relief from the penalty area (R17) and then I operate under R16 to take relief from the cart path. In this video, I'm only taking relief under R16 which requires complete relief when you take relief!
Yes. If the the ball is in the rough and your one club-length relief area includes fairway, you could drop it in the fairway. The rules don't differentiate between the rough and fairway. They are both treated as the General Area. Be sure to double check how the local rule is written though. Sometimes, the rule requires the ball to be in the "general area cut to fairway height or less" (aka fairway/fringe) in order to get free relief.
I think the local rule wasn't given relief correctly based on the rules given. If you go from 1 club length from where your ball was at the time, that's still within 2 club lengths of the sprinkler head. You need 1 club length from the nearest point of relief. That means 2 club lengths from the sprinkler head, PLUS 1 club length from THAT point to get your proper drop zone
What if the sprinkler head is in the direct line to the cup (like in the video), but because of the terrain, your actual putting line is to the left or right of the sprinkler?
The line of play is the direction you intend on playing the shot, within the margins of playing error. The "line of play" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the direction of the hole. Due to the layout of the hole, such as multi-tiered green or a hazard beside the hole, the conservative play might be to a location away from the hole. (Like the tee shot at the 12th hole of the Masters, most players aim for the center or left-center of the green.) Use your judgment, the sprinkler head either is or is not in your line of play. Exception - No Relief If Line of Play Clearly Unreasonable. There is no relief under this Local Rule if the player chooses a line of play that is clearly unreasonable.
You cannot clean a ball u have picked up for relief, or out of someones way. You can only clean it between holes. Once on the putting green or if local rules allow it.
Is that intended "line of play" a straight line from your ball to the flag, or is the line of play the line you would take if you were actually putting? That is, if your putt would be to the left of the hole because the green had a left-to-right slope, would that be the line?
Sorry I missed your comment, Bob. Like Lucas said, line of play is the line you intend to hit your ball and not just a straight line to the flag. If you have to play it 10 feet to the right because of a slope, that would be your line of play.
@jayrobertsgolf do you know the answer to this? I don’t and it came up today and I dropped onto the green and made a birdie putt. Is this a GIR? Trying to decide bc if not, did I make a 0 putt birdie?
If the sprinkler physically interferes with your intended swing, you would be entitled to free relief. However, when the ball is in the General Area (fringe) and you are taking relief for an Abnormal Course Condition (sprinkler head), you must drop the ball in the same Area of the Course so you'd still have to drop it in General Area even if there's a spot on the green that's not closer to the hole
Love the explanation. So many golfers get their rules knowledge from TV coverage. Announcers usually fail to emphasize the use of a local rule.
An absolute brilliant explanation of this ruling.Covered everything
Excellent use of added visuals, including marking the Left and Right Reference Points to determine the *Nearest Point* of Complete Relief.
I don’t play golf, but Jay, you make it sound fascinating. You are so good to listen to. I’ve actually gotten interested in the game. Thank you.
Clear and concise explanation - bravo!
This is useful! We had the exact situation a few weeks ago and this cleared up everything. Thanks Jay!
Very clear explanation and very helpful! Thanks.
Very clear and precise analysis. No beating around the proverbial bush. I am subscribing to your channel.
Very helpful, thank you.
Great explanation and delivery. Thanks!
Great explanation. Thanks
Love the videos. Making complicated golf rules way easier to understand. Thanks!
Thanks for the comment, Ben! 👊⛳️
Very Good - thanks that was great way to show it
Very informative. Thank you.
Great explanation! Clearly explained. Thx.
This is fantastic. Such a simple explanation of the rule and deals with all the silly questions that people follow up with after explaining it as well. Awesome job!
Thanks a lot, Craig!! I try my best to hit everything I can without fluffing so the viewer feels confident about the rule rather than feeling the need to ask a bunch of clarifying questions (but questions are welcomed of course). Really appreciate the comment.
Excellent! I'll share with my fellow players.
I’ve just “discovered” you Jay!
I have to say, this really is superbly presented with clarity and insight.
Thanks for doing these.
Keep up the good work. I’m hooked! 👍🏻
Awesome! Welcome aboard and thank you so much for the comment!! 👌😁
Brilliant and clear explanation
Best rules explainer- thanks
Very understandable thank you
Another great video!! Thank you!
I appreciate the comment ⛳️
Great Explanation! I love the rules and am now your new fan! Keep em coming
Appreciate you Quantrell! More on the way very soon!
This is a brilliant and perfect explanation. Good use of graphics and explanation of the options. Thank you.
Thanks a lot for that comment, Kevin 👊⛳️
Well done!
Very well explained. Thank you
Of course! Thanks for the comment!
Love ❤️ it⛳️.
Very helpful Jay thanks buddy!
Thanks John! This local rule is popular and frequently adopted (at least in the competitions I play in) so it's a good one to look into for your daughter's events under the Terms of the Competition provided to players. BUT, just read carefully because the Committee can modify this rule even further and require the ball to be in the "General Area cut to fairway height or less" (this includes fringe). For example, in this video, if my ball was in the same position but in the rough, no relief!
Perfeita explicação. Show!
Great video….absolutely great video
Thanks for the comment, Pete! ⛳️👍🏼
Great explanation for a rule I wasn't clear about. And timely. There was just a PGA tournament on TV where a player had a chip shot with a sprinkler head in his line of play, and he landed his chip in the sprinkler head and high grass around the head, and the ball jumped a couple of feet straight left and stopped short of the green.
I wondered why he didn't take relief, so it looked like the either the local rule wasn't in effect, or the ball was more than 2 clubs away from the sprinkler head. Hard to tell from the TV angle, and I don't remember hearing the announcers clarify except that the player had missed his landing spot short by a couple of feet.
Thanks
Good job
Great video thank you
Thanks a lot!
Good explanation I can see dropping on the left or right becoming a contentious issue and the Queensberry Rules having to be applied to settle any ambiguities.
No
Nice, complete video, covering everything. Liked, that you showed the area directly behind the sprinkler wasn't part of the relief area.
Thanks a lot Bantoni!
This makes perfect sense.
Excellent explanation.
Thank you! 👊🏽⛳️
Love this rule.
I was in exactly that situation just off the green in a medal. The putter was the safe choice.
I asked my two playing partners for a ruling on relief and was told emphatically that there was none.
Holed my little 9 iron chip.
They were very quiet for the next couple of holes.
Excellent explanation
Thank you very much for the comment 🙏🏼⛳️
Thank you Dino
All hail Dino!!
well explained Jay
Thanks, Anthony. Appreciate you
Another good one! I saw you doing this one from a 180-degree view (the white house in the background).
HA! I'll be out there again soon in January. Be sure to say hi next time! 😁
Excellent video. In general, many people don't know there is no "line of Play" relief for immoveable obstructions, eg., OB stakes, electrical boxes, toilet huts, etc.
Agreed. I try to explain it by comparing it to a cart path (IO). If you didn't have interference by the cart path but had to hit a shot over one, do you get relief because it's on your line? Course not! Thanks for the comment!
Thanks for this.. really well explained and clear. Need to check my clubs local rule as I’ve seen very ‘liberal’ interpretations of this situation / rule from time to time.
This rule can have variations so it’s smart to check. Thanks for the comment
Excellent video series. Much appreciated. In this particular case, if the golfer chose to drop to the right of the sprinker and then the sprinkler then interfered with the golfer's stance, would there then be further relief or would dropping where there is interference be illegal because you're not taking complete relief?
You nailed it. This local rule is an extra option under 16.1. When taking relief it must be complete relief from everything (lie, stance, swing, and in this case line of play). You shouldn't' have interference at all after you drop. Thanks a lot for the comment and question!
Nice video with a concise explanation. The one question I have if after you drop the ball are you allowed to change your next from a putt to a say a chip with an iron. What would happen in that case. Thanks Jay.
The Rules do not govern how the player must play their shot. Therefore, you may play the ball however you like (putt, chip, etc.) after you've taken relief, regardless of what your initial intention was beforehand.
So good
Thanks for the comment!
Jay, thanks for the great video. I think you may have touched on this, but if your NPCR with the local rule caused you to have to step on the sprinkler head, you'd have to live with that stance? Am I correct? Thanks.
Hey Burns, the Local Rule simply adds an additional 'interference" category. So when taking relief (just as you would normally from a sprinkler head), you must be completely free of all types of interference (lie, stance, swing, {and line of play in this case}. Therefore, you should not have any interference after you drop. If you do, the ball has not come to rest in the Relief Area. That help?
Very helpful. From what I gather, then, it doesn't matter that you could chip over the sprinkler head. Sounds like it would still be an obstruction for this local rule.
Good day. Your ball is in thick rough at the edge of the fairway but not a penalty area and there is casual water, does the relief area has to be in the rough?
A couple years later, just had a thought. Worth mentioning that after taking relief, the golfer is not obligated to use the same club or make the "same shot" as he desired prior to taking relief.
first example was a no brainer thanks
There's another condition that would have been useful to explain where relief from a sprinkler head in the line of play is possible without local rule F5. Consider a green shaped like a letter C. The pin is near the top right of the green and the ball is at rest in the bottom right of the green. That brings the interior part of the C, which is the general area and not the putting green in a direct line between the ball and the pin. If there's a sprinkler head in that part of the general area between the ball and the pin on the intended line of play, then relief from the abnormal condition would be available.
This situation is similar to the case of greens with two pins (a single green that serves two holes) when one pin is on the line of intended play between the ball at rest on the green and the pin allocated to the current hole being played.
This is particular situation exists only because the ball is at rest on the putting green. If the ball is at rest in the general area, then this video clip provides a complete and accurate rendering of the applicable rules.
Soppose the flag would be 15 yards to the left but it is a very very sloped green. So my intended direction of play would be the same as in this video. Do I still take relief the same way. Or as I now can see the hole without the obsctruction (as it's 15y to the left) am I not allowed to take relief? So "the line of play" is that the intended line of play or the shortest view to the hole?
Thanks for your rules explanations. This one is great for me as my course has this local rule in place for regular play. In your example, if you had chosen to take the drop in the relief area to the right and you are then standing on the sprinkler head, do you get further relief?
Hey Michael, thanks for the comment! So, if you take relief for line of play and still have interference with stance after the drop, that means you haven't correctly found the nearest point of complete relief.
This local rule is an additional relief option under 16.1a and when you take relief under 16.1a you must take 'complete relief' meaning that your nearest point of complete relief (NPCR) from the sprinkler head must not have any interference with lie, stance, swing, as well as line of play in this case. From that NPCR, you get one club length so no matter where the ball is in in the relief area, you should have no interference. Does that make sense?
@@JayRobertsGolf thanks for the reply. I think it makes sense. But if what you are saying is the case, then some of the area you show in your graphic on the right of the sprinkler may not actually be the legal relief area. Is that right?
@@michaellortz6365 It is possible that if the ball was in the right portion of the relief area and in the bottom left hand corner I could still have interference with my line of play but it may also look like that because of the camera angle. The principle of the rule is true and the graphic was more so to demonstrate the fact that there are areas that can't be included in the relief area for continued interference
Hey Jay/. Revisiting this rule.
When courses adopt those local rules, are they always posted on the scorecards or would one have to check with the office to be certain?
I would think it be printed on the scorecards
Ideally, they would be printed on the scorecard or posted on a bulletin somewhere. That's certainly not always the case. Probably not even most of the time. You could always ask the pro shop though. In many tournaments though there should be a Terms of the Competition provided to the players and the local rules for that event would be listed there.
Also, MLR F5.2 states the the ball and obstruction are in part of the general area cut to fairway height or less.
Not sure if you get a one club length of relief for line of path under local rule, but you do for standard relief of a sprinkler head.
What if there's an obstruction on the green as a stick with a rope and local rules cant move rope can you get relief or play as it is ??
Question about scorecards and rule 3.3b(3)/1. We have 3 nines at our course. In scoring, the marker enters scores on the wrong nine and the player attests the score even though on the wrong nine. Is the player DQ if not corrected before submitting the card.
The act itself of returning the card won't get the DQ. As long as you haven't left the scoring area, you can still make changes to the card. Only once you've left the scoring area has the card been "returned" and no more changes allowed.
The key part I think you want to look at is "if the mistake is not corrected AND a hole score is lower than actually taken on that hole, then the player is DQ'd."
For example,
On hole #1, I made 5.
On hole #10, I made 4
But on the card, I have the scores for the nines swapped so it reads 4 on hole #1 and 5 for hole #10.
Because I returned the card with a score (4) lower than what I actually made (5), I'm DQ'd.
Darn right you get relief and those unkept areas around the green with sand in them too. Don't get me started on the water.
I need to review the sprinkler head location of 2 club lengths from the green ?Along with the ball coming to rest no further than 2 club lengths ?
I caddied for a friend a couple of years ago in a local US Open qualifier event and they had this local rule spelled out on the rules sheet just the way he explained it in the video so I believe he is absolutely correct.
Great explanation Jay! 👏👏
I appreciate the comment 🙌🏼
@@JayRobertsGolf No problem. I always love to learn the rules! Say.. is Mike still there in the golf shop?
@@Unplugged704 Mike is no longer there 😢 he left about two years ago and got out of the golf industry entirely. He's doing great though and very happy and still comes out every now and then!
In the initial example, without the local rule, you showed that we cannot get relief as the sprinkler head doesn't interfere with our intended swing. What if i pulled out a wedge instead of a putter? Wedge may take some turf during impact then hit the sprinkler. Can i take relief then? Also, can i choose to use the putter after relief, or do i need to use the wedge as it was used to determine intended swing?
The player's entitlement involves the club he INTENDS on playing. While the player can assert that he intends on playing a club a certain way, such action would have to be judged as being reasonable. Using a wedge instead of a putter would be considered just a matter of choice, i.e., reasonable. Even a 3-wood is sometimes played in this situation. However, I don't see how club selection would affect the example shown in the video. The sprinkler is recessed. There is no way any club will hit it on the follow through, unless the player takes a 6-inch deep divot... and that would only happen if the player is horribly skilled or if the player intended to hit the ball to Moscow!
As to changing clubs after taking relief, conditions dictate which club you choose. Before taking relief, you're forced to use a lofted club, therefore you're entitled to relief using the lofted club. After you've taken relief, conditions allow you to play a putter, therefore you are entitled to play the putter.
What if my intent was to chip but the sprinkler head was within 2 clubs of the green. The sprinkler head was right where I wanted to land the ball. Can I get relief from this situation? I wasn't sure so I chipped over the sprinkler head to avoid a weird bounce. But I would have preferred the relief and not to have to worry.
As I’m watching this, I was making a tee time for skybrook and heard you mention it. Great videos and maybe we will see you there.
That's awesome. I won't be out there for a little bit unfortunately. On an extended stay out of state but will be back early 2022. Hope we get to cross paths. Make some birdies for me!
Does the area need to be closely mown or do you get the same relief in the rough with sprinkler head next to green?
Good question. The default wording in this Model Local Rule does not require the ball to be in the "General Area cut to fairway height or less" (closely mown).
However, the Committee may alter the wording to make that a requirement in order to take relief so always wise to double check the wording when this Rule is in play.
What if the sprinkler head was very near the green and your one club length allowed you to drop on the putting green, which is a different surface than the first cut where your ball originally sat. Are you allowed to change surfaces when taking relief?
What happens if your drop permits you to drop on the green. Can you follow all that was discussed and drop on the green?
In this example the chosen club was the putter so the local rule came into play. However, if a wedge or chip shot was contemplated, then the sprinkler head wasn't really effecting your shot. Does the local rule apply (complete relief) irrespective of which shot / club you decide to use?
Hey Greg, this is irrespective of the shot or club you choose. So in this same example, if I intended to chip the ball, I'd still get relief.
Furthermore, after relief is taken, I am not forced to use the shot/club I initially intended to hit. In other words, if I intended to putt the ball and took relief, I could then chip it. And vice versa.
2 Question: is it just the physical sprinkler head that must be in line of play, or can it be the unnaturally sloping shape of the ground around the sprinkler that might affect the line of the putt and the break? Second, what happens if you go through this whole process, then honestly and ethically change your mind, maybe after seeing someone chip on a similar line, and want to chip instead of a putt?
Great questions.
1) it is the physical sprinkler head that must be in your line of play. Under Immovable Obstruction/1 (an Interpretation), the "turf around the obstruction is not part of the obstruction".
2) after you have taken relief, you are free to hit any shot that you want. Going from putting to chipping is perfectly fine.
This is an excellent explaination. What is frustrating is that the "local rule" isn't the actual rule. It's an example of a bad rule. No way you should have to chip over that sprinkler head with the ball that close.
Thanks for the comment!
Sub no. 1000!
WAHOOOOOOO!!!! 🎉 🎈 🎊 thanks so much!!
The Royal and Ancient 8F-F allows additional relief in puttable general areas. So if you’re going over seas bring your A&R rule book. Just kidding.
Jay, is that a CGA cap (Carolinas Golf Assn) cap you're wearing? Also,within the the semicircle (darkened area) of the relief area and also in the undarkened strip behind the sprinkler head in your video...if the drop were to put your ball more than 2 club lengths from the sprinkler head, would that be considered "complete relief" ?
It is CGA! Nice eyes. Might be making some videos with them soon! As far as your question (if I understand correctly) the distance from the sprinkler head is irrelevant. The distance of one club-length is measured from the NPCR. As long as my ball is within that area, it doesn’t matter how far or close it is to the sprinkler head. Is that what you’re asking?
@@JayRobertsGolf I think I heard you say the ball needs to be within 2 club lengths of the sprinkler head to get relief. So would it be legal to drop in that undarkened strip if it puts the ball more than 2 club lengths away?...Love golf rules! Most people don't play by them and don't understand there always is a reason they are so specific.
The gap in the relief area represents incomplete relief because the sprinkler head would be in your line of play still. There is nothing to do with 2 club lengths for the relief area only when determining if you get relief (ball must be within 2 club lengths to get relief). Sorry if I’m still not understanding!!
👍
If you say, "hey, I wanted to putt this and therefore get relief", once you drop your ball in the new location, are you still required to putt it since those were your original intentions? Or, if maybe after you drop the ball, it's sitting down in a little bowl or taller grass, can you then elect to chip? I know in your example, there was no tall grass or any weird undulation that the ball sat in after the drop, just wondering if it were the case, must you still play it as you intended to, for which reason you got the relief?
The rule covers a few different types of relief and yes, you can choose to not putt it, the rules say nothing about it only applying to putting.
After taking relief a player can always re-assess the "new" conditions and hit any shot that is normally legal. That applies in all relief scenarios.
I would bump and run an 8 iron from both spots so the sprinkler head wouldn't be in play on any shot if hit properly and cleanly, BUT I would feel way more confident with relief as 1 in 20 shots result in a duff top shot which would fetch the sprinkler in to play. With relief the ball would still get to the hole with no risk, i would feel more confident aswell
What is "line of play"? Is it the intended line of the ball or a straight line from ball to cup? I remember Annika being told that line of sight was not the same as the ball path she wanted to play.
How do I know if the local rule applies?
Question about when marking the ball on the right side of the sprinkler. You marked complete relief just outside of the sprinkler but if you dropped it where you placed the tee wouldn't you have your stance affected by the sprinkler? If so, wouldn't you be required to mark further out to the right to gain "complete relief"? Thanks for the helpful content!
That would entail a completely separate drop to do it correctly if you were in a tournament. Because you would take the first drop and once the ball is in play, then start the process over and then determine if it qualifies for a second drop due to stance interference. Playing a casual round, you could skip the extra step to keep up the pace of play and no one would care. Just think of it as two completely different drops for the different criteria met for getting relief.
@@kennyoliver2403 Thank you!
The one thing that can gives you quick relief is Alka-Seltzer
I think I watched all of your videos this evening 😅 great stuff! Please see my comment regarding penalty areas and out of bounds on your provisional ball video. I NEED answers.
Thanks so much! I really appreciate that and sorry for the delay. Penalty Areas are high on the list but there is a ton to cover and I want it to be great so it's a work in progress. Stay tuned and thanks so much for the support!
I make up the rules as I go along. In this case I pick up the ball, add 1 stroke and move on to the next hole.
You mentioned “intended stroke” can you get relief and then not use the “intended stroke” and substitute it for another stroke?
Zach Johnson #3 oakmont got relief cause he was going to play it left handed.
We have adopted such a local rule as we have double sprinklers on our green fringes. The fourth requirement (at our golf club) is that the ball needs to be in a closely mown area.
That is a common adaptation to this local rule. “Closely mown areas” is no longer recognized in the rules though. Instead, it is referred to as “areas cut to fairway height or less” 👍🏼
I believe that the term "closely mown area" is still in effect and that the explanation for such is as you say “areas cut to fairway height or less”
Good explanation. Bad rule by not allowing relief when it's clearly in your path.
Very interesting, but I have a question about water, or more specific Temporary water, in Fl we get a lot of rain and sometimes our water hazards are over filled with water, they even cover the base of trees. We all know that trees aren’t planted in water so at that time we have a temporary accumulation of water. If your ball say rolls in the water but is not where the normal water line is can you get free relief ? Now we all agree if you hit a ball past the normal water line you are out of luck. Any opinions on this? Thanks 😊
No opinions on this one. Just facts 😄 the penalty area is defined by an edge. Usually stakes or lines. If water overflows from it onto the course (general area) and your ball went into that area of water, you’re in temporary water. free relief!
Must you use the putter or can I use a wedge?
You can use whatever club you want to make the stroke
For COMPLETE relief, take up a less frustrating game. 😖
Isn't that why we love this game??
Jay Roberts Absolutely!
What about if part of the relief area is is on the green. Can you go from the rough to the green?
Negative. The ball is in the General Area and the rule requires the ball to be dropped in the General Area 👍🏼
Correct me if I'm wrong on these points (or confirm):
1) you marked a 180 deg arc, but this close to the green you could technically do more like 200 deg or even a little more. If you did this on the right side, measuring "distance to hole" it would put you almost even with the sprinkler head. I thought of this because ideally you don't want to putt through more fringe than necessary
2) if you dropped to the right and it resulted in the sprinkler head now being in your stance you could then take relief again, this time from the new placement, potentially allowing you to improve your line noticeably by removing some break
Hey Gary,
1) you’re thinking about it correctly I think. Imagine attaching a string to the flag and making a straight line to the NPCR. While the string is attached to the flag you can walk one club-length left and right to create the flat edge portion of the relief area. But at 25 yards away from the flag and only one club-length left and right it’s not going to create much curvature and remain relatively straight if that makes sense
2) even though we are taking relief from the sprinkler head for line of play, when you take relief for an abnormal course condition, the NPCR must be clear of ANY interference (lie, stance, swing) so if after dropping the ball and you still have interference with your stance, that means the NPCR wasn’t correct. No matter where the ball is dropped in the relief area, it should give you complete relief
@@JayRobertsGolf Ah, ok. I had just watched your vid on taking a lost ball drop on the cart path and assumed that you would take relief twice, just like that scenario.
@@garyco766 That's a good observation. The difference with the cart path video is that I am operating under two different rules. I first must take relief from the penalty area (R17) and then I operate under R16 to take relief from the cart path. In this video, I'm only taking relief under R16 which requires complete relief when you take relief!
If nearest relief is on the right, take stance and then 1 club length?
yes
Subbed. Been wanting to check out a YT channel that covers these kinds of rules. Learn to chip from tight lies folks.
Thanks for the sub, Johnny B! Toe down on tight lies is all you need! 😁
@@JayRobertsGolf "Hitch and hold" - Phil Mickelson
If the sprinkler head was in the rough greenside... can your one club length relief move on to a better surface?
Yes. If the the ball is in the rough and your one club-length relief area includes fairway, you could drop it in the fairway. The rules don't differentiate between the rough and fairway. They are both treated as the General Area.
Be sure to double check how the local rule is written though. Sometimes, the rule requires the ball to be in the "general area cut to fairway height or less" (aka fairway/fringe) in order to get free relief.
I think the local rule wasn't given relief correctly based on the rules given. If you go from 1 club length from where your ball was at the time, that's still within 2 club lengths of the sprinkler head. You need 1 club length from the nearest point of relief. That means 2 club lengths from the sprinkler head, PLUS 1 club length from THAT point to get your proper drop zone
What if the sprinkler head is in the direct line to the cup (like in the video), but because of the terrain, your actual putting line is to the left or right of the sprinkler?
The line of play is the direction you intend on playing the shot, within the margins of playing error.
The "line of play" doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the direction of the hole. Due to the layout of the hole, such as multi-tiered green or a hazard beside the hole, the conservative play might be to a location away from the hole. (Like the tee shot at the 12th hole of the Masters, most players aim for the center or left-center of the green.)
Use your judgment, the sprinkler head either is or is not in your line of play.
Exception - No Relief If Line of Play Clearly Unreasonable. There is no relief under this Local Rule if the player chooses a line of play that is clearly unreasonable.
Once the ball is in hand, you say to clean or replace. IIRC, one must finish the hole with the same ball which it was started. Clarify?
You cannot clean a ball u have picked up for relief, or out of someones way. You can only clean it between holes. Once on the putting green or if local rules allow it.
Is that intended "line of play" a straight line from your ball to the flag, or is the line of play the line you would take if you were actually putting? That is, if your putt would be to the left of the hole because the green had a left-to-right slope, would that be the line?
Your intended line. Not necessarily straight on to the flag.
Sorry I missed your comment, Bob. Like Lucas said, line of play is the line you intend to hit your ball and not just a straight line to the flag. If you have to play it 10 feet to the right because of a slope, that would be your line of play.
If the "one club length" puts you in the green without being closer to the hole, can you drop in the green?
@jayrobertsgolf do you know the answer to this? I don’t and it came up today and I dropped onto the green and made a birdie putt. Is this a GIR? Trying to decide bc if not, did I make a 0 putt birdie?
What happens if the ball is in front of the sprinkler head, and it impedes your back swing, and if your not nearer the hole can you drop on the green
If the sprinkler physically interferes with your intended swing, you would be entitled to free relief. However, when the ball is in the General Area (fringe) and you are taking relief for an Abnormal Course Condition (sprinkler head), you must drop the ball in the same Area of the Course so you'd still have to drop it in General Area even if there's a spot on the green that's not closer to the hole