Great video! I think you did a pretty good job of portraying both sides in an interesting way (as well as being more well-researched than most of the posts I've seen on it in either direction, which often miss crucial details). Personally, I'm not convinced by the Ishar theory, because a lot of the points don't hold up for me, in addition to the ones you offered potential rebuttals for. The most important bit: *Heralds cannot sense when other Heralds die.* We see this in the Way of Kings Prelude, where Kalak does not know which, if any, of the eight still live, and none of them (including Ishar) know whether he is alive either. So how he senses this is an open question with both the Ishar theory and Stormfather one, but I could buy that his nature as sorta-ish Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow might combine with his nature as a Bondsmith spren - a spren of Connection - and as the remnant of the Shard of Honor (in some form) to give him a sense of some of this stuff beyond even that of the Heralds. Other points: • The Stormfather _does_ appear to Dalinar as a shimmer on occasion, specifically in OB chapters 1 and 38, and in RoW chapter 107 as a "vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar" (which I took to be another instance of the shimmery form from the other two chapters, personally). So that's not just a hypothetical that he could maybe adopt such a form, it's a form he's _done_ before. • Jezrien's Blade is described as "sinuous" in Oathbringer, so it does line up with previous descriptions. I think that Gavilar not commenting on it is a matter of this being a first draft more than anything else and Brandon not putting all the finer details down yet (especially since he _does_ see the other Blades, so either way he'd still recognize it unless the vision just completely excluded it). • On the Windrunner powers thing: Gavilar does think that Thaidakar's "avatar" looks like Lightweaving, so he is familiar with Radiant powers to _some_ extent, and the fact he thinks shortly after that Szeth MUST be sent by Thaidakar might even indicate that he does indeed associate what Szeth is doing with the Radiants, but doesn't mention it onscreen because he's busy bleeding out and his mind is going hazy. • The no storms issue and italics thing are only suspicious if you take what the Stormfather says about the lack of bond at face value. Gavilar has not sworn any Ideals, and has not solidified any bond, but as we see with Kaladin and Syl in Way of Kings, there's a proto-bond stage of sorts that can be reached, where it will eventually fade if not forged into a true bond, but which brings some of the benefits of one nonetheless. It may be that Gavilar has simply been on the path long enough for there to be enough of a Connection that he no longer needs the storm, but the Stormfather doesn't want him to mess around with the powers too much and screw things up, and so neglects to mention that, while they don't have a FULL bond, there is a grey area that he falls in. • The Stormfather does eventually bond Dalinar, but it takes him trying to wipe out every human and singer on the Shattered Plains first, and even then he keeps refusing until Dalinar forces him. He doesn't seem to have _wanted_ to pick Dalinar or send him the visions • The Stormfather not only shows Dalinar the vision with the Everstorm, but shows Kaladin a _different_ view of the Everstorm coming when Kaladin rides the storm with him, so it's definitely something he's "seen" (and perhaps one he has very literally seen with his own.... Investiture eye equivalent things that grant sight, given that it's been in Shadesmar for centuries). (Also, the Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast, and Tanavast definitely _did_ look ahead, so it's possible that more of Tanavast remains in him than he's let on so far.) • That last point may also play into the immortality thing - in addition to the bond aspect, WoB is that he feels about Cultivation the same way that Honor did, so the Stormfather may retain a hint of Tanavast's memories of emotions, including what it was to Ascend and leave Yolen behind and know his friends and family outside the sixteen were dying and eventually being forgotten on a planet he was light years away from. In fact, a bit more on the Shadow point, since it's relevant to multiple of these points: when he speaks to Dalinar for the first time, he does NOT introduce himself as the Stormfather. He introduces himself as "the one left behind ... the sliver of Him that remains ... the piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel". In other words, when Dalinar asks "who are you", his first reaction is *not* that he is a storm, as he so stubbornly insists is all that he is later on, it is that he is what is left of Tanavast. Actually, a totally tangential thing off what you were talking about with losing bondmates - that kinda reminds me of the story of Queen Tsa and Mishim: "Most importantly, it is the story of how the moon came to know the one thing that before, only mortals had known. Loss." It doesn't really line up with the story itself, but I do now wonder whether there may be a fragment of such an event in the distant past that over time became warped and combined with other stories into this myth.
Thanks! I spent a fair bit of time looking through the Coppermind and the books, just cuz I think the two facets of this theory are interesting. On the Heralds not being able to see when each dies: Thinking back to the prologue, you're right. And none of the world-changing, Connection-altering events (Death of Honor and BAM's binding) are likely to affect the Oathpact in a way to Connect them further. So unless Ishar did some Bondsmith Connection mumbo jumbo after the prelude (maybe after he reclaims his Bondsmithing blade?), the whole sensing the death of a Herald would probably be more in the Stormfather's realm. On the Shimmer: Oh, cool! I missed this. I always thought the shimmer point was really weak anyways, which is probably why I wasn't looking for this when skimming through the Stormfather's appearance in OB. On Jezrien's blade: I think this is a mistype on Brandon's part. I'm not sure if this particular draft has been through Karen yet, but I think it'll be changed in the editing process. On Windrunner powers: The interesting thing here is that I don't think we see Lightweaving in any of the visions (at least the ones Dalinar was shown on page). There are others that we haven't been shown, I think. So it may be reasonable to say that Gavilar was a mite distracted by the magical assassin trying to kill him and didn't have any time to think "oh dang, a windrunner" or to see that it was Jezrien's blade. A thing likely addressed in the editing process, I think. On the almost Bond: This is exactly what I was thinking. Not sure if I got it across well in the video. Rules get wibbly wobbly around oath time, especially when the Stormfather says "that was almost them." On the Stormfather's reluctance: Almost as if he was being told to/forced to go after Dalinar..... I smell Cultivation's meddling here. On the Everstorm visions. I think I still prefer the Stormfather being dramatic at this point rather than using his futuresight. Mostly because it's more amusing to me to think of the Stormfather seeing Szeth using Stormlight and thinking "Oh shizzle, this man is about to get frizzled." On immortality: This was another point that was a reach to justify it in regards to support the Stormfaker theory. The Stormfather has numerous ways, as you've just added to them, to gain personal emotional knowledge about immortality. On the Stormfather's Introduction: Yeah this covers support for a few different points. I need to go back and read the story about the moon. Half the time, I feel like there's something else going on with these stories that I want to tie back into the rest of the book. Thanks for the in-depth response!
Ooooo. I like a lot of what you pointed out!! I'm especially impressed by the inconsistency in the description of the honorblades? It's something others haven't caught onto. But I think both of the theories you put together are right. With a twist. We've seen in RoW that Ishar is able to use a Bondsmith's powers (e.g. Opening a perpendicularity) without the knowledge of the Stormfather. And we also see that Ishar has moments of sanity while in the presence of "Honor's Light" shall we say? Like when he opens the perpendicularity. What if after he picks up the Honorblade for the first few days, he maintains his sanity? And realizes his mind is slipping and that the Oathpact needs a new Herald? He then uses his skills and finds a pre-existing Connection between Gavilar and the Stormfather coz the Stormfather was already considering him (probably to be a Radiant). But then he kind of hacks the Connection and usurps it and injects himself into it, while keeping the Stormfather in the dark, which we've seen that Ishar is capable of it. We've also seen a Bondsmith's capability to change the perception of time. So Ishar may have used that skill to alter the time for Stormfather to hide his presence. And at the end, he realizes Gavilar is useless and removes himself from the Connection. And the Stormfather takes over, which is when we see the lower case caps.
It’s possible. This is a very interesting theory. Possible, though I get the feeling the Impostorm was interacting for the long run, so had been interacting with Gavilar for a long time.
I'm a bit late to the party.. I can't remember if it was Kaladin or Shallan, but one is them saw a huge silhouette walking during a high storm... so I'm guessing it's the Stormfather... But the Everstorm Father theory sounds amazing
So how does that connect? The big silhouette during the High Storm? How are you using that to confirm that the voice in the book 5 prologue is the Stormfather?
It’s a bit of a toss-up whether BS purposefully he’s gavilar duped about which blade was Jezrien’s vs his own or if it was just a writing accident. For me, I hope it is purposeful. I want to know all the sneaky sneaky things going on
I love the sneaky sneaky too, but I think this was a mistake. There might be a purpose but it’s be a weird shallow one IMO. Then again, insane Ishar can sure be petty, I suppose
Personally I think it’s the Stormfather and this was him being more open and a bit naive with who he was giving information too. Gavilar taught the Stormfather to hold things more to his chest. That being said he’s being sooooooo sus in this prologue. I really dislike the Chana=Shallan’s mum theory - how many more secret societies or magical things can be attached to this girl. 😂
I go back and forth. I think there’s definitely gonna be some significant rewrites to clear things up. I would prefer it to be the SF himself just so we see a little bit of gruff ole storm character growth. I also think the Ishar/Jezrien’s blade thing was a slip up. Do we know if this scene went though Karen yet As to Chana-Shallan: she’s just a clown car of secret societies. They will never end!
Definitely agreed on the rewrites - it's going to be interesting to see what changes and stays the same. Certainly the overall narrative will stay the same (surely) but those juicy little tid bits... well, we'll have to see. I agree about the blade, I think that Brandon just described the wrong one by accident. I find it hard to not attribute the same type of mistake for a lot of the Stormfather behaviour that lends credence to the not-Stormfather theory but that's also no fun. xD With it being an alpha draft I'm not sure if it's gone through Karen yet - I'm not actually sure when she looks at things but suspect it's throughout the whole process. I definitely thinks she goes through it before it gets to beta readers though (low key I am a beta reader but tend to not talk about it) - if it is a mistake, I would expect something this obvious to be fixed before we get it (if not all the betas will pounce on it straight away). I asked Eric (Chaos @ 17thShard) and he was also thinking that she likely goes through every draft that Brandon writes to make edit suggestions. All Shallan needs is to join the Set now and she'll be set. (ha)
@@JessietheSleepyKoala yeah I don’t think it has been through Karen yet, but mostly to justify my theory that he made a mistake with the blade lol. I could see some of the behavior/ appearances of the Stormfather being fixed for the final draft and the direction of those changes sowing us the correct theory. As beta readers, do you and Eric (assuming he is as well) find it hard to talk in the 17th shard about theories and what not between beta reads and release dates? Or do you have a system set in place for yourself?
@@PonderingsOfPete It can be difficult to theorise between the beta and the release of the book - you don't really want to be in the situation where you're outright lying when coming u with a theory because that's not cool. Mostly we learnt to just talk around points instead of engaging if it's something we've been corrupted on. For things like Shardcast (I'm not sure if you've seen it but I'm going to make the guess you might have because you're in the 17thShard server) we try and pre-record a lot of things before the beta comes out so we can properly theorise on things. The prologue's actually been really nice because it's come out before the SA5 beta so we can go WILD with speculation. There's an upcoming Shardcast on the prologue and I'm super excited to be able to get in and speculate about things. It's not my biggest forte, but I want to take the opportunity while I can!
@@JessietheSleepyKoala yeah that’s a good strategy. I really enjoy the Shardcasts. Really helps with learning just all the the things, especially with the WoB episodes. I don’t have time in my personal life to read all of them, so being able to put on a video about a specific topic in the background while I work has been helpful
Great video! Also the ability for the sus-Father to read Gavalar’s thoughts. That was only alluded to but it clearly happened multiple times.
Great video! I think you did a pretty good job of portraying both sides in an interesting way (as well as being more well-researched than most of the posts I've seen on it in either direction, which often miss crucial details). Personally, I'm not convinced by the Ishar theory, because a lot of the points don't hold up for me, in addition to the ones you offered potential rebuttals for.
The most important bit: *Heralds cannot sense when other Heralds die.* We see this in the Way of Kings Prelude, where Kalak does not know which, if any, of the eight still live, and none of them (including Ishar) know whether he is alive either. So how he senses this is an open question with both the Ishar theory and Stormfather one, but I could buy that his nature as sorta-ish Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow might combine with his nature as a Bondsmith spren - a spren of Connection - and as the remnant of the Shard of Honor (in some form) to give him a sense of some of this stuff beyond even that of the Heralds.
Other points:
• The Stormfather _does_ appear to Dalinar as a shimmer on occasion, specifically in OB chapters 1 and 38, and in RoW chapter 107 as a "vague impression of a figure the same size as Dalinar" (which I took to be another instance of the shimmery form from the other two chapters, personally). So that's not just a hypothetical that he could maybe adopt such a form, it's a form he's _done_ before.
• Jezrien's Blade is described as "sinuous" in Oathbringer, so it does line up with previous descriptions. I think that Gavilar not commenting on it is a matter of this being a first draft more than anything else and Brandon not putting all the finer details down yet (especially since he _does_ see the other Blades, so either way he'd still recognize it unless the vision just completely excluded it).
• On the Windrunner powers thing: Gavilar does think that Thaidakar's "avatar" looks like Lightweaving, so he is familiar with Radiant powers to _some_ extent, and the fact he thinks shortly after that Szeth MUST be sent by Thaidakar might even indicate that he does indeed associate what Szeth is doing with the Radiants, but doesn't mention it onscreen because he's busy bleeding out and his mind is going hazy.
• The no storms issue and italics thing are only suspicious if you take what the Stormfather says about the lack of bond at face value. Gavilar has not sworn any Ideals, and has not solidified any bond, but as we see with Kaladin and Syl in Way of Kings, there's a proto-bond stage of sorts that can be reached, where it will eventually fade if not forged into a true bond, but which brings some of the benefits of one nonetheless. It may be that Gavilar has simply been on the path long enough for there to be enough of a Connection that he no longer needs the storm, but the Stormfather doesn't want him to mess around with the powers too much and screw things up, and so neglects to mention that, while they don't have a FULL bond, there is a grey area that he falls in.
• The Stormfather does eventually bond Dalinar, but it takes him trying to wipe out every human and singer on the Shattered Plains first, and even then he keeps refusing until Dalinar forces him. He doesn't seem to have _wanted_ to pick Dalinar or send him the visions
• The Stormfather not only shows Dalinar the vision with the Everstorm, but shows Kaladin a _different_ view of the Everstorm coming when Kaladin rides the storm with him, so it's definitely something he's "seen" (and perhaps one he has very literally seen with his own.... Investiture eye equivalent things that grant sight, given that it's been in Shadesmar for centuries). (Also, the Stormfather is the Cognitive Shadow of Tanavast, and Tanavast definitely _did_ look ahead, so it's possible that more of Tanavast remains in him than he's let on so far.)
• That last point may also play into the immortality thing - in addition to the bond aspect, WoB is that he feels about Cultivation the same way that Honor did, so the Stormfather may retain a hint of Tanavast's memories of emotions, including what it was to Ascend and leave Yolen behind and know his friends and family outside the sixteen were dying and eventually being forgotten on a planet he was light years away from.
In fact, a bit more on the Shadow point, since it's relevant to multiple of these points: when he speaks to Dalinar for the first time, he does NOT introduce himself as the Stormfather. He introduces himself as "the one left behind ... the sliver of Him that remains ... the piece of God left in this world, the winds that men must feel". In other words, when Dalinar asks "who are you", his first reaction is *not* that he is a storm, as he so stubbornly insists is all that he is later on, it is that he is what is left of Tanavast.
Actually, a totally tangential thing off what you were talking about with losing bondmates - that kinda reminds me of the story of Queen Tsa and Mishim: "Most importantly, it is the story of how the moon came to know the one thing that before, only mortals had known. Loss." It doesn't really line up with the story itself, but I do now wonder whether there may be a fragment of such an event in the distant past that over time became warped and combined with other stories into this myth.
Thanks! I spent a fair bit of time looking through the Coppermind and the books, just cuz I think the two facets of this theory are interesting.
On the Heralds not being able to see when each dies: Thinking back to the prologue, you're right. And none of the world-changing, Connection-altering events (Death of Honor and BAM's binding) are likely to affect the Oathpact in a way to Connect them further. So unless Ishar did some Bondsmith Connection mumbo jumbo after the prelude (maybe after he reclaims his Bondsmithing blade?), the whole sensing the death of a Herald would probably be more in the Stormfather's realm.
On the Shimmer: Oh, cool! I missed this. I always thought the shimmer point was really weak anyways, which is probably why I wasn't looking for this when skimming through the Stormfather's appearance in OB.
On Jezrien's blade: I think this is a mistype on Brandon's part. I'm not sure if this particular draft has been through Karen yet, but I think it'll be changed in the editing process.
On Windrunner powers: The interesting thing here is that I don't think we see Lightweaving in any of the visions (at least the ones Dalinar was shown on page). There are others that we haven't been shown, I think. So it may be reasonable to say that Gavilar was a mite distracted by the magical assassin trying to kill him and didn't have any time to think "oh dang, a windrunner" or to see that it was Jezrien's blade. A thing likely addressed in the editing process, I think.
On the almost Bond: This is exactly what I was thinking. Not sure if I got it across well in the video. Rules get wibbly wobbly around oath time, especially when the Stormfather says "that was almost them."
On the Stormfather's reluctance: Almost as if he was being told to/forced to go after Dalinar..... I smell Cultivation's meddling here.
On the Everstorm visions. I think I still prefer the Stormfather being dramatic at this point rather than using his futuresight. Mostly because it's more amusing to me to think of the Stormfather seeing Szeth using Stormlight and thinking "Oh shizzle, this man is about to get frizzled."
On immortality: This was another point that was a reach to justify it in regards to support the Stormfaker theory. The Stormfather has numerous ways, as you've just added to them, to gain personal emotional knowledge about immortality.
On the Stormfather's Introduction: Yeah this covers support for a few different points.
I need to go back and read the story about the moon. Half the time, I feel like there's something else going on with these stories that I want to tie back into the rest of the book.
Thanks for the in-depth response!
Ooooo. I like a lot of what you pointed out!! I'm especially impressed by the inconsistency in the description of the honorblades? It's something others haven't caught onto.
But I think both of the theories you put together are right. With a twist. We've seen in RoW that Ishar is able to use a Bondsmith's powers (e.g. Opening a perpendicularity) without the knowledge of the Stormfather. And we also see that Ishar has moments of sanity while in the presence of "Honor's Light" shall we say? Like when he opens the perpendicularity. What if after he picks up the Honorblade for the first few days, he maintains his sanity? And realizes his mind is slipping and that the Oathpact needs a new Herald? He then uses his skills and finds a pre-existing Connection between Gavilar and the Stormfather coz the Stormfather was already considering him (probably to be a Radiant). But then he kind of hacks the Connection and usurps it and injects himself into it, while keeping the Stormfather in the dark, which we've seen that Ishar is capable of it. We've also seen a Bondsmith's capability to change the perception of time. So Ishar may have used that skill to alter the time for Stormfather to hide his presence. And at the end, he realizes Gavilar is useless and removes himself from the Connection. And the Stormfather takes over, which is when we see the lower case caps.
It’s possible. This is a very interesting theory. Possible, though I get the feeling the Impostorm was interacting for the long run, so had been interacting with Gavilar for a long time.
I'm a bit late to the party.. I can't remember if it was Kaladin or Shallan, but one is them saw a huge silhouette walking during a high storm... so I'm guessing it's the Stormfather...
But the Everstorm Father theory sounds amazing
So how does that connect? The big silhouette during the High Storm?
How are you using that to confirm that the voice in the book 5 prologue is the Stormfather?
It was Dalinar in oathbringer while looking for his knife in the highstorm which I’m 90% sure was just an unmade
Either way, I can confirm the Stormfather is James Earl Jones
The only confirmation anyone really needs
This is how I imagine all of his lines
Hi 👋 I’m excited 😊 about Brandon Sanderson book coming out!! 😊😊 happy reading to you!! 😊📖🦋🎥
It’s a bit of a toss-up whether BS purposefully he’s gavilar duped about which blade was Jezrien’s vs his own or if it was just a writing accident. For me, I hope it is purposeful. I want to know all the sneaky sneaky things going on
I love the sneaky sneaky too, but I think this was a mistake. There might be a purpose but it’s be a weird shallow one IMO. Then again, insane Ishar can sure be petty, I suppose
@@PonderingsOfPete insane Ishar could still be conniving Ishar.
(Also, when I typed Gavilar into my phone is autocorrected it to “ya liar” 😂)
Personally I think it’s the Stormfather and this was him being more open and a bit naive with who he was giving information too. Gavilar taught the Stormfather to hold things more to his chest. That being said he’s being sooooooo sus in this prologue.
I really dislike the Chana=Shallan’s mum theory - how many more secret societies or magical things can be attached to this girl. 😂
I go back and forth. I think there’s definitely gonna be some significant rewrites to clear things up. I would prefer it to be the SF himself just so we see a little bit of gruff ole storm character growth. I also think the Ishar/Jezrien’s blade thing was a slip up. Do we know if this scene went though Karen yet
As to Chana-Shallan: she’s just a clown car of secret societies. They will never end!
Definitely agreed on the rewrites - it's going to be interesting to see what changes and stays the same. Certainly the overall narrative will stay the same (surely) but those juicy little tid bits... well, we'll have to see. I agree about the blade, I think that Brandon just described the wrong one by accident. I find it hard to not attribute the same type of mistake for a lot of the Stormfather behaviour that lends credence to the not-Stormfather theory but that's also no fun. xD With it being an alpha draft I'm not sure if it's gone through Karen yet - I'm not actually sure when she looks at things but suspect it's throughout the whole process. I definitely thinks she goes through it before it gets to beta readers though (low key I am a beta reader but tend to not talk about it) - if it is a mistake, I would expect something this obvious to be fixed before we get it (if not all the betas will pounce on it straight away). I asked Eric (Chaos @ 17thShard) and he was also thinking that she likely goes through every draft that Brandon writes to make edit suggestions.
All Shallan needs is to join the Set now and she'll be set. (ha)
@@JessietheSleepyKoala yeah I don’t think it has been through Karen yet, but mostly to justify my theory that he made a mistake with the blade lol.
I could see some of the behavior/ appearances of the Stormfather being fixed for the final draft and the direction of those changes sowing us the correct theory.
As beta readers, do you and Eric (assuming he is as well) find it hard to talk in the 17th shard about theories and what not between beta reads and release dates? Or do you have a system set in place for yourself?
@@PonderingsOfPete It can be difficult to theorise between the beta and the release of the book - you don't really want to be in the situation where you're outright lying when coming u with a theory because that's not cool. Mostly we learnt to just talk around points instead of engaging if it's something we've been corrupted on. For things like Shardcast (I'm not sure if you've seen it but I'm going to make the guess you might have because you're in the 17thShard server) we try and pre-record a lot of things before the beta comes out so we can properly theorise on things. The prologue's actually been really nice because it's come out before the SA5 beta so we can go WILD with speculation. There's an upcoming Shardcast on the prologue and I'm super excited to be able to get in and speculate about things. It's not my biggest forte, but I want to take the opportunity while I can!
@@JessietheSleepyKoala yeah that’s a good strategy. I really enjoy the Shardcasts. Really helps with learning just all the the things, especially with the WoB episodes. I don’t have time in my personal life to read all of them, so being able to put on a video about a specific topic in the background while I work has been helpful
Can call it the Stormdaddy theory for the OG SF!
Oh Lordy. That’s an idea
@@PonderingsOfPete 😂😂😂
too many assumptions
All the assumptions, sir