Managing the Freeze Response: Dissociation, Emotional Shutdown, and Creating Safety | Being Well
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- What do dissociation, avoidance, and shutdown all have in common? They’re connected to the “freeze” response to stress. In one of my favorite episodes to date, Dr. Rick joins me to explore the freeze response in detail.
We talk about what stress responses are, how they impact our behavior, and why different people tend to default to different coping strategies. I explain what freezing looks like in practice, and why the freeze response can be particularly difficult to navigate. Rick then shares a number of helpful strategies for working with the freeze response, including strengthening self-confidence, and the feeling of ourselves as someone who can create safety. Towards the end of the episode we discuss managing these tendencies in a relationship.
Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction
0:55 Understanding stress responses
9:05 Asking if your stress response serves your relationships
15:35 Why it's hard to see that you're freezing
19:20 Dissociation, and what freezing looks like in practice
24:25 Steps of moving through dissociation
29:45 Self-awareness, ‘global’ conditioning, and unconditional positive regard
38:20 How Rick would work with someone who freezes: a case study
53:55 Seeing yourself as a source of safety
1:03:30 Recap
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Who Am I: I'm Forrest, the co-author of Resilient (amzn.to/3iXLerD) and host of the Being Well Podcast (apple.co/38ufGG0). I'm making videos focused on simplifying psychology, mental health, and personal growth.
I'm not a clinician, and what I say on this channel should not be taken as medical advice.
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🌍 www.forresthanson.com
📸 / f.hanson
We briefly mentioned harm reduction during the episode, and got some feedback from a community member about the goals of harm reduction work. I've paraphrased it below:
I heard a fundamental misunderstanding of what harm reduction is as a concept, and it’s one that creates a lot of barriers in the work I and my colleagues engage in: that the goal of harm reduction is to decrease, and eventually cease, the practice of a particular activity (such as drinking or using drugs).
This is in fact antithetical to harm reduction, which seeks to reduce the collateral damage from risky behavior rather than prescribing any path in regards to that activity itself. That’s the hook by which harm reduction is effective: meeting people where they’re at, refraining from judgment or prejudice, providing love and support without strings attached. It’s not don’t drive a car, it’s wear a seatbelt. It’s not don’t drink, it’s have water in between drinks. This isn't to to say that harm reduction opposes abstinence or sobriety, it simply sees that as options on a spectrum. Harm reduction is sometimes summarized as “any positive change."
The way you all went on to apply the concept of harm reduction did stick the landing though. I agree that, for example, it’s a pretty wonderful approach to help us take maladaptive fight/flight/freeze/fawn approaches and nudge them towards something more adaptive. It’s a way to offer parts a different role, using IFS terminology, rather than the burden they’ve been assigned.
Harm reduction sounds an awful lot like enabling.
This is extremely informative… I identify!
@@Haleh1I think of it as enabling better outcomes by reducing potential harm. The words making up the term are harm reduction.
So if someone chooses to drive, they can reduce potential harm by wearing a seatbelt, not drinking alcohol or using intoxicating drugs (recreational or prescribed), not driving tired, not texting, paying attention to the road, avoiding rush hour, keeping 2 hands on the wheel - all harm reduction techniques that may minimized the risks associated with the activity of driving.
Keeping with this example of driving, the risk could come from the driver themselves or from another driver, animal or obstacle, or even the vehicle itself - a blow out often has less harmful impacts when the driver has 2 hands on the wheel, is going the speed limit and is paying attention so they react well to the vehicle jerking.
Thanks for all these distinctions. I think when I am stuck dealing with other adults in situations where I cannot control them (most adult healthy relationships) harm reduction sounds like a very reasonable thing to ask and to enable.
Very interesting! I never heard of this! I will start to use it with my adult son.
I’m spiritually trying to remain neutral when a trigger happens now, so I’ll try this. Thank you!
Oh! I know many people who are good at quarreling, and having come from a chaotic childhood family, I get my feathers ruffled.
For 5 years I've been frozen or shut down. No work. No goals. No plans no functioning. No attachment. It's so sad. I'm so sad for all cptsd has taken from me. I'm too tired. I'm not even alive.
I hope things will change for you. ❤
Small steps is better than rooted to the spot 👍💪
Now I've got to take my own advice & stop scrolling through social media & just try out one of the many workouts I've got saved 🥴
Small small steps. Turn on all the lights in your room when you finally have to get out of bed to go to the bathroom. Maybe turn on the shower on the way and tell yourself it’s ok whether you do it or not. Offer yourself a one minute shower. While you’re in shower, consider coffee or stepping outside once your clothes are on. Break it down as far as you have to. Notice what helps even a tiny bit. Layer. Use energy from one to get to the next. Good luck! Been there.
Sadly me too. I do have regular activities planned and I make myself go. I also start shaking when an overwhelming task needs to be done.
it's great, self-reflection is on its way. most people are worse, as if they live without noticing, even universally tangible, causes of problems in human relations. did stalin say "no man, no problem." Greetings to you. It sounds like you'll be more aware than most hotties who haven't been down a similar road. perhaps it depends on the degree of power of the light in the shades of emotional understanding. this video encourages me to continue, a different way, a romantic relationship with a person, an outrageously obvious example of the subject.
Oh my goodness... this is so important. How often do people come from abuse, learn to disassociate and continue in abusive relationships, jobs, workplaces, communities, houses, families and continue to disassociate through their entire life....
Often - in my experience 🥶
😂 that would be me
Just broke through my freeze response last year. I'm 27. I recovered a lot of trauma, the major event happening at 5 years old.
Not being able to remember my own life makes me very sad.
I suffer from this
❤
Lately, when I begin to feel upset, I acknowledge my feelings by saying, "I really want to dissociate right now. But can I sit with these feelings for a little while?" It's very unpleasant, but it gives me a moment to know what I'm feeling and why.
Oh, my... had to stop half-way to go lie down. I've seen the word "dissociation" in medical comments about me, but didn't know what it meant to the ones using it, and they never bothered to explain. But this description hits home. Slept for two hours from shutting down for realising how much I'm shutting down.
I'm so glad to read this because halfway through I feel like I'm needing a nap too.
Dear Bonnarlunda & Jhsrh .. thank you, grateful to be in good company.. me too, I often "conk out" & sleep when I'm not expecting to, tho I realise nowadays it's when I'm struggling to cope or even just to focus & or 'do' something that feels hard, or I feel numb, want comfort or at least distraction, breathing often shallow too, can be low oxygenation (I have an oximeter now)
In my twenties I fainted on a rope swing once, too scared to say I was scared, so I 'went for it' & have no recollection of blacking out.. landed face down in shallow rocky water unconscious, luckily was picked up promptly, head injury concussion 7stitches, once home slept for 2 solid days! I've fallen asleep suddenly in mid stressful conversation, sitting in a car passenger seat, in day time, like 'cutting out', with no warning. Etc. Our brains are amazing what they can do in their efforts to 'protect' us!
Love to you both & to us all, & healing for what we went through to cause such responses ❤🌷❤🌸❤
getting suddenly sleepy is one of the main ways I dissociate. It used to always happen about 40 min into my therapy sessions with a supposed dissociation expert. She never saw it for what it was, I had to figure it out myself years later! All an infant can do to dissociate is to space out so this was probably my very first way of coping with abuse.
Me too!!
So it gets better? I’m in tears over my frozen body and they are talking about matrixes? Makes me feel dumber. Thank you @bonnarlunda for your optimistic comment
Just the fact that you and your dad make this content together is so healing to me on top of the empathetic teaching. ❤
I was a fighter most of my life. My older sister is a fawner.
Now I am freezing and I don't like it, but I'm trying to accept it and forgive myself and practice compassion (not always very successfully).
I hear you & I was the same. I feel very disappointed with myself for not having that drive to stick up for myself or voice my needs anymore. Instead I avoid confrontation don't ask for help, which in turn makes for a hard & lonely road,that's a bit trippy at times when you feel detached from your sourounding like an alien.
I found it I can treat myself like I'm the guardian looking after the little hurt me & acknowledge & validate my feelings & promise myself I'll look out for me because no one else is going to.
Not like split personality...I don't think 🤔 just be patient & not force myself to be tougher & not weak. Separate myself as much as possible from the people & environment that is triggering as much as possible. Focus on just me , selfish it feels at first but you get past that.
After few weeks my pre trauma personality started coming back out.
Setting boundaries for my time to others & allowing more time with myself doing things I like to do without guilt etc.
As soon as I let the toxic people slowly invade my time & influence my life ...even just a little bit...I was back to square one.
Short story long....give yourself permission to validate your feelings & experience Without becoming victim mentality.
just give yourself non critical counselling instead of criticism & dismissal & the assertive part of you will slowly emerge again. It doesn't take much for your hard work to regress with too much exposure to the problematic people/ environment
@@nickibanks5185 I'm 77 so I've learned most of your suggestions over the years.
When my son was 13 (so in the early 1990s), I found myself yelling at myself in my head and I was shocked. I made myself stop every time I heard that and told myself that I had plenty of people around me (the social workers to whom I had turned for help with my problematical son) already doing that and I didn't need to join them: they were doing a pretty good job on their own.
Sadly, I don't have a pre-trauma personality. My earliest memories are of my mother gaslighting me. However (no matter what psychologists say) I resisted inside myself so I do have a "non-trauma" identity.
Also, in the late 1990s I decided that "my physical and mental health are my #1 priority," so I was more able to take care of myself without feeling guilty.
Also, I have always been assertive. (I think that was the part of me that my mother disliked. At least she was never able to beat it out of me.) I haven't lost that.
I do try to set up my life in such a way that I keep toxic people to a minimum. And keep stressors to a minimum.
Right now I am taking your advice and giving myself permission to feel my feelings and to accept myself. It's working (at least sort of: it's a struggle).
Thanks for your kind words.
Thank you so much for this video. I’ve been navigating these turbulent waters for going on 7 decades. I know it gets easier as the coping strategies of dissociating become more self-apparent especially now that I have more time for introspection, but your valuable insight and your graceful expression of it makes a world of difference. You are both gentle giants and perfectly model the path to mental health. Bless you.
Teacup Beautifully expressed!
I saw a graphic that freezing is a deeper stress response than fighting and flighting. I’d love you both to explore that dynamic.
Freeze is a dorsal vagal state…..the lowest of the low 😋 It’s a combo of fight and flee, so like one foot on the brake, and the other on the gas at the same time. It takes a lot of energy to be in the freeze state, or should I say, there is a lot of energy underneath a freeze state.
@@mgn1621 - you're right. AND, it can be the gas and break on at the same time ("functional freeze") OR just the break on (often referred to as "freeze - shutdown".)
For resources/ better explanation than me, check out Irene Lyon or Peter Levine.
unclear what deeper means in this context. to me it makes more sense that each persons way about stress response has its own specific depth regardless of some textbook or chart.
I think that freeze feels most vulnerable because it often would be used when other responses either won’t work or you think they won’t, like the mouse. It’s literally the only option available to him and not a great one. Running and fighting feel pro active. They may not be effective, but you’re taking action, in a way that sends a mssg of some kind to others. Where as in freeze your totally vulnerable with your only hope being to being to hide your feelings and become as insignificant as possible, to become invisible. You are sort of betraying yourself because you are doing nothing, communicating nothing. Just taking it.
OMG @ these brake/gas comments! I’ve been telling my therapist that it feels like I’m in my car, and my car is on and it works great, but when I press on the gas (and boy DO I) the car is still in park, and even if it wasn’t, well there’s a massive concrete wall right in front of my car so the car wouldn’t get very far before totaling itself anyway 🤡😅 love it here.
thank you so much for this video. I've lived in the freeze response for the majority of my life and watching this enabled to me apply for a job at my dream workplace right afterwards!
You can do it.👍
@phoenix9889 ~ wow that's great this video helped you so much ~ Bravo! And very best of luck & joyful manifestation of your dream job.. please let us know how it goes ~ & if for any strange reason not this job then surely you are on the way to an even better more wonderful adventure.. I keep being told *Life happens FOR us, nOt to us* which does feel more empowering. Love to you 🎉❤
Your dscussion of safety really touched something deep in me. As a biological creature I have been strangely comforted by realizing my own human frailty and vulnerability. The earth plane simply cannot provide a sense of ultimate safety. I've noticed that almost everyone has some degree of traumatic experience just from being alive. As a person who has struggled with CPTSD all my life (I'm 72) I have grown and healed by leaps and bounds through counseling and the practice of prayer and meditation. I've had startling insights about the true nature of safesty, which is simply this felt realization that no matter what happens to me in this phenomenal world, I am sustained by a Presence I can't see, but is so thoroughly "for me". I agree that developing agency, positive self talk, asking for help and taking small steps in carrying out new possibilities that are more life giving are key skills that I can learn, but I have to say, that the power to do this is an inner empowerment that comes from Love. My life changed dramatically the day that I realized I don't have to hold myself together because I'm already being held together by this Love.
Jeannine, excellent! Thank you.
Omg... You guys just saved my life. No joke. I'm shaking all over, because it's all true. So many years in therapy. So many different types of therapy, and BOOM. I knew I freeze, and I've been dissecting it as best I can, because I've had to administer "self-therapy", and in under 1.5 hours, we've nailed it. Thank you. THANK YOU! Thank you so much for sharing your gifts with us. ❤ I cannot thank you enough. Good job fellas. You're work is saving lives. I promise you, I am one of them.❤ Bravo 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
This is my first Being Well podcast, though I've followed Dr. Hanson's work for more than a decade. You, Forrest, have other-worldly instincts, intelligence, and compassions. As a podcast choreographer, moderator, and participant, you are second-to-none. And of course your dad speaks volumes with every nuanced and thoughtfully-crafted sentence. He possesses such a deep well of knowledge. Yowsa! And as for the topic? For me, it couldn't be more timely. Thank you.
❤
I love the lens Forrest used to discuss "fawning". It's my primary response but I've always seen it described like "appeasement"...in a negative frame. Flexible lenses are helpful for me. In some contexts fawning is pro-social while in other context, I may be avoiding asserting boundaries or conflict aversion.
This discussion is actually helping me to learn coping skills. I'm in a 40 year marriage. At this point, he doesn't just finish my sentences, he often takes over and dictates the outcome of MY story or experience as HE imagines it. He gets irritable and impatient with me when I speak until I eventually lose my train of thought completely. I can rarely, if ever, fully develop a train of thought before he derails it. At this point in our long 45 year relationship, I'm looking to distance myself from him by mostly listening and getting quieter. I want and need peace and calm.
"For some people living is an unconditioned stimulus, with with which they associate the electric shock, even when they are not shocked at the moment" 😢 wow that is exactly me in my life
Yeeeess something about Dissociation! 😊🎉
I swear nobody talks about this ever
Channels, like Kim Sage’s and others that focus on cPTSD have videos on dissociation, depersonalization and de realization
@@earthpearl3790 Thank you I know, I searched far and wide on the internet…
While watching I realized that just like these videos, this is more about normal dissociation or dissociation that accompanies other disorders, not dissociative disorders themselves. The problem with dissociative disorders is that you never even get the chance to get out of the freeze response. This sadly means that almost all of those tips become meaningless because you never have much control, you could be gone days on end and not notice… Dissociative disorders are even so less talked about, that the DSM V only lists 3 disorders in a waaay to generalized way. The ICD11 does a better job at this, listing 9 categories of dissociative disorders plus 19 specified dissociative disorders (if I counted right) that lie under the umbrella of three of them, but even in the EU, finding someone who knows how to treat dissociative disorders is really hard, even though every therapists knows the basics of dissociation. There are just so few resources…
@@earthpearl3790 But I‘m still grateful for every video on the topic of dissociation, don‘t get me wrong :)
@@blue-uv4mhThere is tons of information available on the NICABM website. Bessel Van Der Kolk has an on-line educational conference coming up in May. There are now many therapists dealing with this. It is advisable to start somewhere. There is not one answer but many pieces to put together to put together your own healing process.
Peter Levine, Bessel ven der Kolk.
You have such a beautiful dynamic with your dad. So much love there and it’s wonderful to witness. Also quite important topics to explore. This was the first time I stumbled on your content, and I happily subscribed. Sending y’all good vibes ☀️
Adaptive means we don't have a say in how our nervous system responds. Children especially don't "think" about running away or fighting or freezing or fawning. It's reactive, not conscious. They are biologically wired responses. It's not a cognitive choice. It's very complex. It's not until adulthood we can see how our childhood adaptive responses can be maladaptive. That's when our thinking really comes into play because we can pay attention to how we can help ourselves to use these wired safety mechanisms to help ourselves be effective. These aren't "bad" adaptations.
They helped us survive……be kind and gentle with ourselves
I don't know what to say. I'm 64, this has just been life changing. I won't say much because I'm frozen. I feel Hope, thank you so much. I've never seen family members interact like this, it's absolutely beautiful...I hope you both know that. I have just subscribed!
I have been working with a somatic/trauma therapist on my freeze responses. One thing I still have difficulty with is; when a situation occurs where I feel uncomfortable (for lack of a better description because I don’t know what emotion I am feeling at the time); and its only later, say the next day, when I have had a chance to regulate myself and get in touch with what bothered me. I get frustrated because what I want to eventually get to is being able to say in the moment of the uncomfortable situation that no, this doesn’t feel right to me and work through it then and there with the other person(s).
That's okay, be kind to yourself. That will come over time and exposure with a sense of safety as you do it. While you build your window of tolerance to be with the discomfort that will become easier because your executive functioning will stay online since you are not in a state of non safety Intrigued by a trauma response.
You sound very self-absorbed. Do you have a job? People that work don’t have time to sit around ruminating.
@@insertmyidentityhereyour comment (NB there’s a crucial difference between drawing conclusion onto the character and personality judgementally, and responding to the message foremost) comes across passive aggressive. You might be stood up and ever so busy (I hold two jobs and still am in an, arguably overactive, self awareness dialogue alongside it all) yet seem to have time enough for someone else’s shortcomings. Is your reality that empowering , I wonder, or are the triggers difference and feeling unseen. I can relate to that!
A few minutes in and I had to comment! Watching you and your dad communicate is heart warming and healing! I wish I had a dad like yours! ❤
I love how you and your dad both bounce off each other. You really break things down in a simplistic form that makes it easier to both understand and relate. We could all do with a chat with a therapist like you. Having watched a few of your videos now, i am beginning to learn so much about myself,and for this i thank you both.
Christina, I echo your thoughts!
Always froze during conflict or when anyone raised their tone, caused a lot of issues between my boyfriend and I because I would be stuck in trying to descalate by apologizing and appeasing instead of coming into my body. podcast is very helpful, thank you!
Like Father like son. Dr. Forest has taken very well after his dad Dr Rick Hanson. Congratulations Forest you have been able to forge your own path and yet be so humble to acknowledge the depth of knowledge your dad has gained due to his experience in the field over the years 🙏
Disassociation is a weird state. You are an observer of your own existence (can't be called living) and therefore nothing "hurts" you.
don’t we all end up doing it to some amount though? i mean it’s similar to desensitization perhaps, which i’m not. wish i could be more actually. i’m so sensitive to violence, can’t watch many movies all the way through, trees and old buildings being cut down around me, can’t look up much or walk just anywhere. some amount of disassociation would be helpful for ppl who feel “too much.”
but i see what you mean. but the weird state will be different for everyone and how it’s utilized i assume.
I dissociated all the time even when in court representing clients. And I always did really well when in that state. But once I found this wasn’t “normal”, I stopped doing it at all.
If "we" stay frozen for too long, or "lie there and play dead" for too long/stay frozen... we're in GREAT danger of becoming harmed if a scavenger comes along to clean up the pieces, after the predator that first threatened us has left the scene. So get up and get moving before you're in danger AGAIN.
I hope this makes sense. I recently had this personal epiphany, so I hope it helps someone. I helps me when this positive thought comes back around. (I have the diagnosis of severe CPTSD and DID/fracturing).
I don't know if anyone will see this this comment, but I hope so!
Stay blessed. 🥰🙏
Btw... i meant "get moving" in terms of getting up and participating in life. Realize that you ARE alive. Don't hide.
First, allow your body to move and be active...to do positive things that "it" wants to do. (From your subconscious positive urgings). Clean house, go out and buy one nice thing for yourself, or a treat. Go for a walk, do your dishes, call friends / family, make that appointment, bake some bread, do projects/hobbies,... woodworking, car repairs, painting, crafts, basketball,...etc.
Yes to the idea of a whole episode on safety.
yeh. these guys are some of the only people who acknowledge that safety might NOT be a reqlity for many people, especially those who have to do self-therapy because our situation is/was so dire that regular therqpy was not an option
Recently got out of an abusive relationship and its interesting to look at the dynamics of those conflicts through the stress response/attachment style lense. Its kind of mindblowing to realize that i allowed him to dominate me through the aggression because of the way i grew up thinking i was powerless to make a change or to stand up for myself. Speaking up for myself never even occurred to me as an option, i just made myself smaller and smaller in order to survive. He would often berate me so suddenly and id enter that freeze response which further triggered his preoccupied attachment/anxiety when he felt me withdraw. If i cried or withdrew, he went into attack mode and escalated, which only sent me further into a spiral, and id go from freeze to appease because the freeze wasnt working and he would get in my space and scream at me. Id end up apologizing just for crying because i was so terrified and now i wonder what i was so afraid of. I was such a mess i couldnt even speak up for myself to even voice my feelings or opinions because I knew he would speak over me or cut me off because in those moments he was so caught up in his own feelings of anxiety /fear/rage he was unable to have empathy for a perspective outside his own. I wonder if i knew this then if i could have asked for space and if that would have helped his own anxiety and if i could have changed the outcome, because i never knew that i had the power to even try.
This is gonna be a slow one for me to get through but probably the video I need the most. I had to stop the first time i tried watching because i shut down from the topic but I’m more mentally prepared for it now. Thank you for these videos ❤
I lot my 14 year old son, Branson. I keep getting stuck in freeze response. I just shut down completely and cut myself off. Death can't be fixed. Can't wait to hear what the two of you have to say. My normal nature is to fight. But in grief, I crumble and freeze. THANK YOU ❤
I fell upon this discussion because I have been freezing and couldn't understand what within my environment was causing it. Tears are streaming down my cheeks as soon as you started discussing safety issues and cortisol. Something just clicked. Thank you.
@narotsonana ~much love to you 🎉❤
Have had big problem with this so thanks for explaining it in such a way that's not shaming .
UGH I love this conversation around adaptive vs maladaptive. I struggled w perfectionism for a really long time and I read a book called The Perfectionist’s Guide to Losing Control and the author didn’t bash perfectionism at all, she just laid it out in all its forms and broke down each “type” into adaptive and maladaptive expressions. I’m still a perfectionist and learning to love and work with it instead of against it has increased my self-esteem tenfold.
That was pretty moving - when Rick I think said - for some people it's living, that is the US.
@49:48 "Wonderful!" Indeed, WHAT we tell ourselves about what's happening makes all the difference. We are told to"Consider it all joy when you face trials" It's at THAT POINT that we can see solutions, grow in perseverance, and discover joy. Thanks for having these "edu-versations" 👍
Amazing episode! I only realised recently that I've been emotionally shutting down in the face of stress and instability. I can't wait for the episode on feeling safe in yourself 🙏🏿
Hi there hope you're doing better .did they drop the safety episode or not yet
Thank you for this!!
From my side, I have to really watch if my reactions are coming from codependency.
It's a fine line between smoothing things over and controlling because I'm uncomfortable.
🙏
While listening to this I hear me in the details and that can be reassuring, also, I feel myself habitually wandering mentally because it's a little triggering.
Years ago when I was describing my dissociative symptoms to rehab staff, she suggested I was having a "white-out". TMI all at once. My vision gets blurry, ears ring, can't talk, can't form a thought other than "bad" or "not good".
Still happens and had a really rough time with an inexperienced therapist last year that while it set me back, it also made me angry and lit an internal fire to change therapists.
Progress.
Plus I have an AWESOME circle of friends working on similar issues.
Blessed, and blessings to you both again.
My mother was a narcissist, and my father had a fair degree of free-flowing rage, so I would freeze. I was an oops, baby. I could sometimes fawn; I could not relate at all to the fight response until I had done a LOT of therapy and work on myself and was in a safe and loving relationship where my partner was proficient at communication.
This is beneficial information. Thank you so much.
Im really looking forward to the followup episode you started to get into with the final question about how to develop the feeling that you are your own source of safety WHEN you are stuck in freeze responses.
I would also really love for you to go deeper on how to deal with freeze responses when you are going into stress responses just from being alive and being triggered by situations that are objectively safe and good.
Thank you for another amazing episode
I choke up when I get mad, and I just stop talking when my husband and I are fighting. Now I know that's freezing.
Same for me 😢
Same
at 9:20 I was just as mind blown as your Dad, Forrest. Wow - the fawning response has so many good aspects - of course it does! This makes so much sense, thank you
I have dissociative disorder NOS and your helpful tips are spot on and unique! Never experienced any of these most effective tools in therapy. Taking many notes and will rewatch! Thank you!
First 5 minutes has already helped. No doubt the rest will be beneficial! Thank you both
Thank you for framing it more as a personality type. Much easier to digest the information when one isn't actively beating oneself up for it.
Glad it was helpful!
@ForrestHanson I echo the positive responses to your informative teaching. The theories are so clearly explained and shows how this adaptive response is merely behaviorial. A 30 pound child has few defenses against a 200 pound predator. Especially before the child has developed a pre-frontal cortex. Thank you both so much. What fantastic role models you are for a son raised in good health to be able to bring the profound influence of the dad's teaching forward into the present consciousness Awakening into spiritual maturity of present generations.
@@Charity-vm4btBeautifully expressed, Charity. It appears you have a profound insight into the origin of this behavior, too. Thank you.
People who have experienced trauma often do not have “presence of mind” they are physically present but mentally absent. The mind freezes and you have to literally bring them into the present moment by asking them to “focus” or pay attention to the task in hand for example the teacher might try to draw the students attention to the lecture that is being given.🙏
There is a broad spectrum of unsafe situations from mild to very extreme (e.g. violence, war, abuse, rape, molestation). My takeaways…..Safety seems to often begin with recognizing unsafe situations, people, and things….Mobilizing often happens when you feel a sense of agency and determine what is really happening and what you can do about it…..Sustaining a sense of safety….”ground oneself as strong”….determination, efficacy, seek support from others….However, it is critically important to recognize there are people who cannot remove themselves (children as the most vulnerable, but also people in war zones, those facing famine, disasters, and many other extreme circumstances).
Can y’all do a video on learned helplessness
This is the first time I can't listen to the whole episode 😢I am completely out of strength physically mentally emotionally drained after years and years of isolation and trying to heal myself ( lack of any medical mental health family or friends at this point in Canada. I am grateful for all the knowledge thanks to wonderful people like you and your dad( read all his books when I could still read) 🙏 ❤️ get thru another day and keep trying i suppose...
Thank you for making this video 😊🥰! I have needed guidance and associative language in this area for a long time. I am trying to overcome this for a majority of my life. Please make more videos on this topic 🌈!!!
i have covert mother with victim complex, malignant ex and a son who has autism. i am so tired i cant function. thank you for this insight
You would be describing me it's hard and mentally draining.
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Exactly what I'm going through as im listening to this podcast! 🙏
Praying for you and with you 🌸.
When i feel stress i cannot manage i tend to lash out, become angry and hostile. Its like i have no comtrol over my emotions and my only goal is to make it stop, even for just a minute. I hate myself when i act that way, i cry and become super guilty and shameful. Im trying so hard to learn to manage my stress in a more healthy way but i feel like these are learned behaviors and its so very hard to break. I have a lot of work to do emotionally.
Ooooh. I had a really long shut down this semester at 40. I'm glad you are talking about this today, marvelous.
Confession: in freeze my parents yell at me for getting angry. Both of them wanted to kick me out without a space, because something is wrong with them accepting chronic PTSD.
Can't believe I haven't come across this channel before. What an amazing pair you are! This topic was huge for me and I'm about to play it through again. Such valuable information, thank you, from the bottom of my oft-frozen heart ❤
I've dissociated..and there is nothing worse, than being scared of YOURSELF! I have to live a very quiet life in order for me not dissociate. I was diagnosed with CPTSD, BPD and PMDD. Don't wish it on anyone.
22:14 this is so on point, thats exactly how I feel!
This was so helpful for me. I’m dealing with CPTSD and is very difficult right now. Thank you for your podcast. You guys are awesome!❤
My son was made to feel like a freakk when he froze at school noone understood it cared to understand im glad this us a real thing because noone had ever encountered it .
I especially liked having the 'what did you mean by..' line in your options of responses. And having yourself as a source as safety💜
For anyone who has cptsd, check out Tim Fletcher's Fight, Flight, Freeze and Fawn.
Thank you! What a wonderful Father and son discussion. I could never understand why I froze certain times and fight other times. Listening to this helps me understand that it depends on the situation you are in. I think I fight when I know I have to and freeze and feel removed from a situation when I feel I don’t have the energy to fight. I’m 76. Maybe I just try to stay away from stressful situations now that I’m older. Stress comes anyway but I try to think about a solution and act slower on it. This is good to study up on. Thank you so much. It’s nice to know we are not alone in this, but that there are others who have gone through trauma and find out through education they can help themselves! Thank you.
Wow. The first few minutes in gave me SO much self insight! Thank you both!
Completely blessed to have such a super strong self aware role model. It’s worth years of unfilled potential and living with stored trauma in exchange with a few kind words and the toolkit for structuring a balanced life 🙏🏼❤️😊thank you for setting and example and answering a deep struggle of mine with communication gaps with select people.
Whoa… this explains so much of how I get. And it’s sadly true that I don’t see myself as someone capable of things due to experiences. I’m eternally thankful for you ❤
This was really helpful to me. Thank you for this podcast.
This channel needs more exposure, it's so good
To answer Forest's question, I, am a person who does go into freeze....or collapse. I don't have that sense of myself as the source of safety. And I've done a ton of work on it. It's pretty amazing to me. People tell me a lot how strong I am. But I don't experience it in that way. And I have endured a lot of discomfort...and I guess it's building up my strength. But it's very wearying. It was a great conversation. But I would like to hear more about the relationship between "collapse"...and freeze. Also I want to just point out that...the animals are not "assessing"....they are acting from a deeply wired in instinct. And we have this too. (As Peter Levine has spoken about in his book "Waking The Tiger"). I say this because...I am seeing that it's the restoration of this instinct for me...at least. Because maybe the reason the freeze...or this unaware response happens.....is because our body needs to restore this instinctual way of being rather than trying to live from the head or the "assessment" mode!! This kind of person has been taught that our natural instincts are what the DANGER IS! I really did appreciate the conversation. But I do think that things like using our creative expressions....(you did make reference some)....but...music, drawing etc. But basically finding a way to access these instinctual responses....and learn that they are not dangerous....and/or being able to release the ones that may be.
I was the abused, neglected Scapegoat in a raging, abusive, alcoholic family.
My responses as a child were Fight, Flight and when the hitting came...Freeze.
Now, as an adult, I'm Flight and Freeze.
My Golden Child older sister is Fawn and Fight.
Great video. A therapist asked me "What age do you revert to (feel like) when you fight vs. freeze, etc." She said my differing response depended on what age the triggers fell back on (ie. Current triggers recalling teen years leads to fight or flight...because I could at the time, and since a child has little agency, it leads to freeze or fawn) That was a theory anyway as to why my responses may differ. But I get the adaptive thing. Makes sense. Freeze (dissociation or inertness) for me feels the safest-less consequences.
Very contextual. Depends on the circumstances. I'm thinking about one set of circumstances where to freeze was to survive. I had no other way to react. Other circumstances, other ways to go.
I cannot tell you how much you helped me become self-aware of this
Forrest, you are a beautiful person, and I appreciate your podcast very much. I also want to encourage you to learn more about the nervous system and how it responds *biologically* to threat/stress. - You can do this by researching polyvagal theory, and /or the work of Irene Lyon, Peter Levine, and Bessel van der Kolk.
The four stress responses are BIOLOGICAL and AUTOMATIC in origin, and happen in different parts of the brain and nervous system combined. Ie. - We don't start off having any control or conscious awareness of them, and any habit of returning to one more than the others is a maladaptation formed from life experience.
It is a misunderstanding to label oneself as a "fighter" or a "fawner", because a healthy nervous system utilises all four responses, as and when they are needed. And it will be done in an adaptive (rather than maladaptive) way, as you spoke of here. Noticing stronger tendencies in one+ stress response can be used as a gateway to achieving more nervous system/biological regulation.
I repeat: the four stress responses happen automatically, as part of the autonomic nervous system's reponse to stress/threat. They are biological in origin. Understanding them is a key! But it takes more than this key to open the door to changing nervous system responses - it takes the right hands on techniques and reprogramming, which happens predominently through the BODY, and safety is the most vital component. Somatic experiencing is one method which achieves this, as is the work of those I referenced, above.
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I want to add on here that I agree with reducing the harm of a maladaptive stress response, but not the specific example given of changing from physical violence to yelling - because yelling is also violence enacted upon someone. Abuse is abuse and needs to end. Outwardly AND inwardly. There are no excuses. Physical violence can be redirected to smashing plates, pillows or boxing etc - not people. At yelling in the wind, not yelling at someone else.
Two often told family anekdotes explain a lot for me. The first is aged 1-2 fleeing to the neighbours by crawling through the hedge and getting punished and ridiculed for that. The next is me just exploring and again crawling away from a family picknick through some greens and getting abandoned by everyone bc they hide behind the trees. Totally helpless and freezing and getting ridiculed again. I adopted fawning later in life and I have fear of abandonment, feel helpless/lack of advocacy, anger and feeling shame. Retraumatized at the moment I am in a lasting state of freeze. Thank you for the suggestions how to get out🤞
The freeze response that Dr Rick was talking about around 23 mins in, I think applies to me - my dad passed away midway through my mum's pregnancy with me, resulting, understandably in a lot of stress & depression. I was told later in life, that I was a good baby because I never cried - my mum left me in my pram outside a shop for several hours (she had forgotten about me) when she returned she said I was "happily" sleeping
Starting to suspect similar things about my early childhood. I’m told I was sleeping 16+ hours per day at two weeks old and wouldn’t cry when I woke up so my mom wouldn’t realize I was awake. Now I’m diagnosed with narcolepsy and wondering if it’s really just my cPTSD 🤦♀️.
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First, thank you for briefly mentioning the trauma of chronic illness. I would like to see you do an episode on that, especially for people who can’t get away from the trauma because the illness affects them daily and is incurable. Second, have you heard of Functional Neurological Disorder (FND)? Dissociation is a symptom of FND, and practitioners who treat FND, call it functional or non-epileptic seizures. Historically, FND used to be known as Conversion Disorder, and trauma was believed to be the cause of FND, but medical experts do not believe that is the only cause anymore, though they do believe trauma is one of the risk factors.
It’s also hard to understand if you are in a conversation with someone online - I stopped talking to teachers and staff getting scapegoated living back at home. And they did not expect that, but this is super helpful to know about for the future. ❤
I'm a 44 yo woman and I'm a freezer, I come from a childhood abuse with barely any support system and I guess all the symptoms that you mention apply to me, including the lack of self-efficacy. what I found surprising is your recommendation to do martial arts and climbing. I devoted about 4 years to the former in my youth, it was some fun and I wanted to learn to be able to protect myself, but I sucked at it and going to each training was a struggle and finally I left with a feeling of being more of a failure and understanding I won't be able to protect myself if somebody would really want to hurt me. and it took only one attempt at rock climbing to make me feel like a complete looser. it was especially hurtful to my self-efficacy because I previously tried a lot of sports as a child and I was good at everything except I hated long-distance running and was a bit scared of skiing, but I was still could do them no worse than average. I don't know if there's any correlation between my being a freezer and sucking at those particular activities, maybe I should add that I'm also on the spectrum and bipolar (but my adjustment level is such that I barely seem somewhat odd or off to strangers). but having experienced those activities myself I can only think of how hard they are for a person like me and I can't really imagine how they can help even theoretically, I can't imagine where I could take resources for this struggle to overcome myself. (I can imagine how they can be good for a person without such issues). it sounds like you're recommending running marathons to a person who barely walks.
Thank you so much for this episode. It gave me so much more insight into myself.
I didn't know Forrest was a dancer :) thank you, gentlemen! Such valuable exchanges. My health reflects my default response, freezing and feeling stuck. Incredible. It's really uncomfortable to learn new ways to be but how liberating.
This is such an important topic as it is very common for persons to continue staying in freeze mode long after the locus of threat has gone and need to learn ways to get a handle on this, to gradually learn to adopt more self efficacious ways to respond🙏
Yes my son would freeze at school everyday not enough education on this
Great Show! I hope that this becomes a series on Flight, Freeze, Fawn! I know that my coping mechanism is Flight, and I’d love to dive deeper into it.
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Wow..Forrest's case study description was so relatable! Just hearing it articulated so clearly is therapeutic! I think there's a consensus that there needs to be a Part 2 about the freeze response :) Would sooo appreciate more on this. Thank you!
Fight, flight, freeze (fawn), flop and Friend. I really like the way you explained the freeze response and dissociation. Also helpful ways to help clients.
Establish safety
Not trip the freeze response
Self awareness
Notice when your in freeze response
Thank you for putting this out here and I wish I grew up in your family household because I admire the way y’all can communicate. I definitely didn’t experience that growning up.
Dissociation is when your Guardian Angel takes over, and removes you from the dangerous environment and nobody knows that you are no longer here. Dissociation is a God sent defense. 👼
Im so grateful to have this defensive mechanism in certain instances. It allows me to look back on traumatizing incidents with a detachment because otherwise id be devastated.
Well, try living for years in that state, it has nothing to do with angels or god, rather the Devil. It is no way to live.
Yes, Guardian Angel took over and just left one in a state! no form of compensation that could at least let one believe in possibilities for a better future no happier alternative, we got left to handle life yourself, and try as one might to better circumstances, etc with whatever cause of action , nothing changed, either it stayed the same or one was presented with another traumatic experience. Summer is here, maybe I'll thaw out!
that's one perspective, but the body keeps score and even if you don't mentally process it your body will always show you signals (could be mental health, random health flareups_symptoms, etc)
@@soul.searcher333 exactly!
Brilliantly helpful. Thank you so much.
Thank you so much! This is the most comprehensive talk on FREEZE that I've heard.
I'm on the healing path from a lifetime of freeze responses and this has been so very helpful.
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I’ve been rewatching all of the Dr Katz show from the 90’s lately, I forgot how much I love it! You two kind of remind me of it.. in a good way :)
I suffer severely from freeze response since a trauma in 2020 that gave me PTSD. Its incredibly difficult to manage and not go into the freeze (which I associate with a shutdown or collapse). I believe its difficult to avoid the freeze due to never feeling I have the energy to fight. I also had a nervous breakdown with the trauma and just never fully recovered (hence the PTSD). When energy resources are always so low it seems freeze is almost inevitable. Very very difficult to treat as we are faced with different kinds of "threats" everyday.
This is very useful and supportive. Thank you!
Excellent! Thank you for sharing your insights about the freeze response, and variables associated with it. I believe you are helping all of us understand ourselves and others in a more useful way with this episode.
Thank you!❤
Thank you for conclusion in the end
This sort of video is helpful. Thanks much! I hope to see a sequel of this topic.
The key terms listed in your episode title have been mentioned a lot in the last few years - almost willy nilly-in many self-help videos. Thank you for explaining them to us. I treasure and trust yours and dad’s informed descriptions the most. You guys are the best ❤. P.S. Thank you for considering my previous request/comment to please make a video on safety 💫.
Fawning ...thank you needed the word. For yrs used the term ' Good Boy' My 66 yr old husband the 6 yr old! I'd love to get his mother out of the ground and have a talk!!
Wow, the question about ' what is the threat' is really fascinating!
That could be a whole episode! Thank you
This is a wonderful video. It just popped up in my feed, so I guess someone knew I needed this. I can't say enough good things about the information and the presentation of it💜. How lucky you are, Forrest, to have been raised with your particular dad. You have no idea how much I need this. Thank you.
Forrest and Rick. Thank you from every ounce of my soul. Your conversation will help me help others I care very much about-and of course, it will help me know myself in a more profound and essential way. Grateful❤