Book vs Show | The Wheel of Time | Season 1 Episode 2
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2024
- I casually review and compare the book and the show, noting the impact the differences make to the story and characters. As an editor, this is fascinating to me. As a writer, I am learning a lot.
The Wheel of Time (Amazon Prime)
The Eye of the World (Robert Jordan)
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My nephew broke his leg, and with my 2 month old niece, I'm nkw on double babysitting duty, so please excuse typos in my comments. A lot of my replies will be given from my phone (with only one hand) which has a badly cracked screen.
As the uncle of 15 (eight nephews, seven nieces) I must remind you that you have a golden opportunity to get your child care pay in entertainment by teaching the kids words and concepts that will drive their parents nuts, introducing them to treats and fun games to realize that Auntie Sword and Pen is SOOOO much cooler than their parents.
Prayers for you and your family Get well soon
Great content, hope your nephew gets better!
best regards to your nephew may he heal fast and well
I hope you continue with the books, I see you don't like very much the early book Mat, but he is the one loved by many, his ark is one of the best ones. You see him first as lazy, immature, until you realize how loyal, empathic, the hero that doesn't want to be a hero kind of character he is.
It’s really tragic how we’ve entered an age of “Death of the author” that somehow justifies completely invalidating a creator’s intent because it doesn’t personally align with your own sentiments so you need to create some sort of rationalization to deflect from the fact that you’re actively trying to insult and degrade the source material for your own selfish ends. I would ask why they don’t bother making their own original stories but it’s pretty obvious based on failure upon failure why this is.
Generally "Death of the author" should mean "We base our conclusions on what is in the text, not the writers intentions". These people ignore what is in the original work and just make stuff up. It's "Death of the franchise"
I am especially shocked at the Tolkein foundation for allowing The Hobbit and, even worse, Rings of Power to get treated the way they were. I don't even know what RoP was. It was definitely a fanfic by some teenager who was mad at the world.
@@rebornstillborn More like death of the narrative.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS from what i gathered, they actually didn't have the rights to make a proper adaptation of the past events of the setting(Silmarillion)... but they also clearly didn't care about the source material in the slightest and had their own agenda.
My heart goes out to you because of the pain that is to come.
On the bright side, your videos are making me want to read the series again.
Another comment telling me to brace myself. 😬
I'm glad you are wanting to read the book again. I'm really loving The Eye of the World.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS oh yeah, what Alan said 😞 Glad you're enjoying the book though. The whole (book) series is great.
I need to rewatch ep 2 before I say more but I want to say this now. Please let the length of your review be as long as needed to say everything you want. Long form content has its audience on UA-cam
I am considering uploading my unedited videos, but maybe to a third channel. Lol. My formal channel is sorely neglected, so I'm reluctant to start a third. Haha.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Some people split their long videos into 2 or more parts.
It could work for you.
Your own insights, and enjoyment of the books and/or show, and chatting with other fans in the comments, are probably about the only reasons that people are here.
Speaking of which... for myself, you could go full-on "frothing at the mouth" over the show, and that would be fine with me. (grin)
Ditto, I'm mainly here to help keep my mind stimulated in the boring monotony of doing lab work, so the longer the better as far as I'm concerned it really bums me out how the UA-cam algorithms are encouraging short form sound bite content and punishing long form.
This, please.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONSI would be completely happy to watch your unedited videos and listen to you talk about stuff for an hour or two even! I like to turn these on while I'm cleaning and stuff and I know a lot of other people do too so please don't lower the length or feel like you have to cut things for our sake. Because I feel a lot of us will watch the whole video regardless of length
The decision to enter Shadar Logoth is a big difference. Not only does the show's weakening of their relationship by pitching it as a betrayal differ from the book, it's completely opposite. In the book, we clearly see that Lan is dedicated to Moiraine. Full stop. He cares about the villagers only because she wants them along. His focus is on her. And when they argue about Shadar Logoth, he opposes her because she is tired and is not strong enough to take the alternative route she is pushing. He's not wanting them to go to Shadar Logoth to oppose her, but because it's the best option he has of keeping her safe.
Isn't it kinda the same in the show? They enter to get away from the trollocs so Moiraine can recover.
Yeah. It really stood out to me when Moiraine and Lan are secretly talking, and Moiraine is basically saying she doesn't want Lan to take them close to Shadar Logoth, and then Lan changes the subject.... and then takes them there while she's unconscious. 🤷♀️
They were being chased for days on end since they left Two Rivers. She def wanted to take a break and Lan was thinking of her safety.
Great analysis.
It was such an amazing story.
If I remember correctly, in the books, it was ultimately Moiraine's decision to go to Shadar Logoth.
It was very risky, deadly for everyone, but they had given up on being able to get away from the trollocs any other way.
Shadar Logoth is the equivalent/homage to that place in Lord of the Rings where the ghost-army was.
@@ThePopsers Yes, they entered for the same reason... to escape the trollocs.
The difference is who made the decision... and instead of it being Moiraine's smart but risky decision, it was twisted into being Lan's stupid decision so that Moiraine could berate him for it.
Girl boss moment... her Admiral Holdo & Po scene, 'cause, you know, "gotta put that pesky stupid man in his place".
I'm just loving your approach to the book vs show adaptation insights, you are so observant and articulate about the heart and soul of the story. I read each novel as it was released and have waited literally decades for a decent screen interpretation... you are at the very early stages of a journey of pain.
Thank you 😊 Although I don't know about "articulate". I lose all my vocabulary when it's just me and the camera. Haha. Hopefully I lose up more as I continue to do these videos. I am enjoying the book so much. I'm certain I'll be finishing the whole series.
@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS _Huzzah!!_ I for one, look forward to your reading and the sharing of your impressions!
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS
I've read this series many many times. It's clear to me that Robert Jordan's purpose in this story is that when men and women work together it leads to success. When they don't cooperate it leads to disaster. I'm enjoying the show. Matt is my favorite character in the books. Dislike his story change but it could work.
The majority of book superfans in my comments have confirmed the men-women power balance in the book. I'm worried about how much will have to change because of this difference in the show.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS There is some misandry in the books, particularly from the white tower. This builds to a head where Rand has a direct confrontation with the tower, after which the balance changes and the story moves forward with balanced gender roles in magic. So, while there is a bit of anti-man sentiment from certain parts of the world, the vast majority of the story doesn't include that. The OP is correct too, it's only after the White Tower learns to work together with their male counterparts under the leadership of Rand that they actually start to experience success against the forces of the Dark One. This show is really dishonoring the work of Robert Jordan by filling it with misandry, it reminds me of the Charmed remake and the sheer absurd volume of misandry in its first season.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Its not just the balance. In some of the nations/societies women do have more power than men, but Jordan gives the women the flaws normally associated with men in these societies and vise versa.
@@scottmyers10
The misandry in the books is ALSO done BY DESIGN and is never treated as a positive thing. Many characters could justify it through necessity (the taint of Saidin) but hatred for men is rightly conveyed as a bad thing. And I for one ALWAYS read this as a mirror to societal misogyny in a world that is more "patriarchal" (note: I think patriarchy theory is absolute garbage, but it is accurate to describe that men held greater social and political power for most of history and that this was never a good thing, even when it was a somewhat necessary thing. And it really was considering how dangerous the world was and how dangerous reproduction was for women)
@@DmGray I completely agree. You get a really disgusting feeling from the misandry in the show, while the misandry in the book was there to make you feel empathy and think deeper on societal gender roles and stereotypes. It is an excellent critique of several societal factors, especially misogyny. Robert Jordan did this political landscape well, the show demonstrates that the writers don't know how to tackle complex social problems in a constructive way. Robert Jordan's work is like a highly skilled surgeon, opening the issues up for everyone to evaluate closely. While these writers are more like a demolition crew with a sledge hammer, they just hit it as hard as they can and hope that it will have the same effect.
I really like Mat. This might be spoiler, but here goes. Mat doesn't like to be pushed, controlled, but will help without pause without thinking what danger to himself his help might cause. He is very curious about many things. His greediness is on par with everybody. How many people walking on a road, with no one around, would not pick up money lying on the ground in front of them? He has a very interesting story arc that I find interesting.
I sure hope that more comes of all the heroes. I was super happy when the POV in the book moved out of Rand. Not because I dislike Rand or anything, but because I was haply to start seeing more into the others.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONSyeah, that's another similarity to LotR. They split up with the narrative following different characters at different times. In some books you don't even hear from certain characters or its very little.
@@chadwhitfield6946 once the POVs start changing it becomes important to notice whose chapter you're reading when multiple POV characters are together because everything in that chapter will be shaded by the current POV character's perspective. Jordan was pretty good at being consistent with this.
It takes many books for rand to grow up
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Jordon does a pretty fantastic job of giving each of the main characters their own time to shine (and in some cases, many of the ancillary characters), so just keep reading and your wish will be fulfilled.
If you're struggling now. . . brace yourself for more struggle 😂😂
Can't wait for your take on the season finale 🙈
Ugh! Nooooo! I keep getting this comment..... that it's gonna get painful. I am so craving a good epic fantasy show.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS my issue when it comes to adaptations is trying to stay true to the law of the world that was built by the author. Unfortunately, this show rips the law to smithereens. You'll know what I mean soon enough. It's probably worse having read the whole series first and then watching the show so it might not hit you as hard as it did me (and many others) 😊
to be fair tho, the season finale was during covid and the matt actor decided to just up and leave. so i have to kinda give them the benefit of the doubt for that lol. i think they had an actual plan for the finale but since things went wrong, they probably thought "what's the fastest way we could wrap this up within the next few weeks " lol.
@@xyr3s without giving away too many spoilers, I don't think they can blame COVID for the law changes they made.
The "Aes Sedai" link having that much power (it's also meant to be Rand that does this showing his power as the dragon. Again having the male character diminished in favour of the ladies)
The burnout change
Multiple fakeouts
Magic phoenix healing tears 🤣
All complete artistic license and fabrication. Very frustrating as a fan.
@gingerbeardedgeek1363 I don't think the burn out has really changed, I think they tried to show there were different layers to burning out, unfortunately they didn't do a very good job with that:p
Yea I'm hoping rand and perrin get some glory moments in season 2.
I'll give season 2 a shot, I the writing is bad in this as well, then that's it lol.
As a person who read the whole story its really fun listening to your speculations
I'm sure lots of book superfans are laughing. I am usually good at making predictions, but this is a looooooooong series, so anything can happen. I'm stoked!
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Laughing sometimes but also its for the interesting and unique takes. Often listening to a new person starting a piece of media you get loads of interesting new and fresh takes. Things that make you go "Yeah I never thought of that" Keep up the good work!
I've made this comment on a bunch of different videos over the past several years with all the adaptations that have been coming out. When you make significant changes to the characters, significant changes to the setting, and significant changes to the plot it is no longer the same story. And that is what this show has done, changed the personality, behaviour and motivations of the characters, changed the world building, and changed the direction of the plot. it is not the same story at all
Well said 👍
You really really really need to be the editor for the show because you are raising so many issues that a lot of us have with the show. You are able to articulate it so well and point it in the right direction with your thoughts.
RJ was masterful in his plot building and foreshadowing. Often, he includes bits of plot you do not even realize until later on. On another note, RJ was a wordsmith. None of his fantastic language use made it in.
I am really looking forward to finishing the books and discovering how rereadable it is because of all the hidden clues and foreshadowing. Reconsumable stories are my favorite.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS There's a TON of foreshadowing. Some mid-term, some long-term, some VERY long-term.
You've already heard about "The Slog".
Once you've finished the story the first time, and aren't in a hurry to get to it anymore, the slog can be quite enjoyable, too.
I say that, as someone who waited about 8-10 years to get through the slog.
The slog lasted about 3-4 books... which were coming out 2-3 years apart.
It was, at the time, maddeningly frustrating.
Uh... the first time, you want to get to the "fun destination"...
After that, you can learn to enjoy the journey just as much as the arrival.
Yeah totally agree… RJ was also FUNNY! And this has been executed with such pouty seriousness. I want to see Nynaeve thwacking old men with sticks and Mat/Perrin/Rand be jealous of each other’s skills with the ladies, dammit. ‘“I won’t shout at you,” Nynaeve shouted.’ Is the funniest line in any book written ever (evaarrrrrr!) and I worry the showrunners just don’t get how much warmth and twinkly old man humour weaves through the story.
@@lauraswinton8458 The show really screwed up Nynaeve's devotion to "her" people... which was also her most endearing trait... the balance to her temper issues and abrasiveness.
For that matter, when you consider how devoted she was to them, it makes it even more logical that the elders' lack of respect would manifest itself, in her, as something like being abrasive and/or having temper issues.
@@Nyet-Zdyes yes I agree… I also think Nynaeve’s insecurity and anxiety combined with her deep seated sense of responsibility is such an important driver and kicks off such an amazingly rich character journey…they really did such a shallow job. However I massively relate with Nynaeve’s grouchiness/anxiety/care/stubbornness that I find her unreasonableness in the books quite a funny mirror and I think the comedy of her unreasonableness makes her enjoyable from the off. I think a skilled writer could have done all that in quite a subtle and layered way, think the writers in Succession/Thick if It /Peep Show but… well… I don’t think we’ve got that calibre. That said, I have a massive tolerance for unreasonable flawed characters and I think there’s also a certain cowardliness in the writers not being willing to show her as abrasive too, cos she is.
I have massive issues with the way they’ve totally undone her arc and messed about with the block, and it’s a shame because the actress is pretty good.
I love Nynaeve !
I have to say, whatever the timing, the telling of the song of Manetheren really touches me, and makes my eyes water, every time I hear it. The actress did an excellent job.
Again, I think we would have been okay with an hour-long review.
It's a great tale.
And thanks. I'm debating whether or not to upload the unedited longer versions on another channel.
The way the books are laid out, you are going to learn more and more about the magic system, politics, and stuff as you go. It gets pretty awesome and complex and Jordan does an excellent job of staying consistent all the way through. In terms of balance between men and women, without spoiling anything, attaining balance between both sexes is actually a pretty core philosophy that is underlying throughout nearly all of the major plot points through the saga.
To be fair to Mat, Book!Rand is more than six inches taller than he is, and well-built. "Why don't YOU hoist ME up" is a perfectly valid question in their situation.
From what I remember, in the book, Nynaeve was successful in sneaking up on Lan, something that impressed him, but Moiraine sensed her due to them both being wielders of saidar.
Yes, Moiraine could feel her hiding behind the tree.
Loving your breakdowns of the episodes. As someone who read the books decades ago (and loved them), you can probably imagine my opinion of the show... Enjoying someone else elucidating so many of the points I have trouble with. Keep up the good work 🙂
Glad you liked the video. I uope I can get more concise and organized in future episodes.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS I think the length is fine. I'll be interested to hear your opinion as you get further into the book and TV show. Can't say more for spoilers, but think it will be pretty obvious!
I hated the ferry scene in the show it made it clear to me how stupid all our main characters are going to be for the rest of the series. The guy clearly killed himself for an obviously lost cause and if moiraine had let him retrieve the ferry it would likely have been the death of all of them. Then like a scene later Moiraine has to coax Egweynes simple mind to come to that exceedingly obvious conclusion. I do think Moiraine could have made a weave to save the ferry man but that’s book Moiraine I have no idea how magic works in the show all I know is it doesn’t seem to be at all like the books so I’m assuming she just didn’t have that ability in the show otherwise she is evil. What I’m saying is either way i look at it this scene lowered the like ability of all of these characters who now lack common sense.
I had to cut such a long rant about this scene. You are right. This scene did increase the distruclstnof Moiraine, but it also made her (and eberyone who just watched) look real bad.
During the fight at the Two Rivers, Moiraine was using "telekinesis" to throw objects.
She logically should have been able to "retrieve" the Tairen Ferry man the same way.
NOT being able to do that (or too stupid, or unwilling) is the problem.
I took it as the man jumped into the river too quick for Moraine to grab him and then he was too far for her to reach… tho logically, if she could throw many rocks from across the whole square, she could have lifted one man, poor writing.
Or maybe she was wounded and couldn’t muster up much more to save the man from his stupidity, as she’d already expended energy to sink the ferry.
Trust me...as someone who has read the series at least ten times... it only gets worse.
I still had hope at this point in the show...
So so much worse. I can't wait for her review of Ep 4
Bro 😓 The books give off such a cozy and comforting feel and I didn't get that at all in the show
Sometimes i think there should be a stronger word than simply "worse".
This is what the book superfans keep saying 😬
In 'The Eye of the World', Moiraine sends the cloud she'd been using to hide the party down the side of the river, leading the myrddraal away from Taren Ferry. Hightower and his men would then have to go upriver to make rafts to cross the river, taking them even further away from the myrddraal and trollocks. So far, all the attacks had been targeted, and Moiraine was trusting on that level of control and secrecy to keep the people of the Two Rivers safe.
Mat isn't stupid, he's one of the wisest characters in the entire series.
Boots. It says it all.
Sanderson didn't understand Mat and his progression as a character. He admitted that after a Memory of Light was published.
3 pairs, no more no less
Yeah, Matt can pick a set of boots
😅 I am so interested to see what that means.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONSBloody ashes, woman. It doesn't mean anything! It's just boots!
You will love these books mate, make no mistake about it - no spoilers, but I will say the way Mat was characterized on the show was disgusting. They have an opportunity in S2 to fix it, I hope to god they take it.
Looks like quite a few folks agree with you. I hope they make him someone i care more about. It might work if they get Rand to start caring about him. Sometimes, you can create affinity for a character by having another character like them. So far, only Perrin has had a supportive scene with Mat, but not Mat and Perrin are split up. Time for the old Rand, who compassionatepy offered money to Mat in episode 1, to come back. That's what I'd do.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Mat is without a doubt the star of the book series. His chapters are so good you just want them to come back round 😄 they take a bit of a dive when Sanderson took over but I think he figures him out eventually 👏
Yes, seriously dislike how they did Matt. Barney Harris was killing it though. Need better writing
@@bobc538 Barney made that writing look good at times, that fella has a career ahead of him i suspect.
@@aldan7812 He has to overcome a very big obstacle now: He has to convince people that he won't dip mid-production again.
3:45
"I dont like stupid characters. I like my characters to be smart."
100 % same.
Except for Matt Groening characters, where "The audience loves a slow thinker."
Have read the Wheel of Time multiple times. I could only get about 2/3rds of the way through the 1st show episode and I was done. They totally changed the characters of Mat (wacky, fun, flawed but good-hearted) and Perrin (solid, hardworking, loyal, and, um... unmarried). They eliminated one of the two (and extremely important) magic systems, and a fundamental concept of the book series that drives much of the narrative. They totally changed the relationship between Rand and Egwene - ruining the evolving relationship between the two to come. And they have already ruined one of the most interesting book characters - Nynaeve - who has many personality flaws and yet is still heroic and likable in the book.
Hard not to feel like there is a conscious effort by the show to insert a totally different moral foundation into the world.
From what book superfans tell me, this is being sold as "another turning of the wheel". This is clearly an excuse for all the changed the writers wanted to make to the source material. Excuse. Not a reason.
Sorry, but how do they ruin Nynaeve in 2/3 of of the first episode? Especially since "likeable" is not how most people have described Nynaeve in the Eye of the World. She really grows in the later books, but more people would describe her as "annoying" early on.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONSit is a fucking excuse.
One proposed by Sanderson because he didn't want to pass away potential mistborn adaptations.
That said when you understand other turnings you understand that the lands are different. The people have different names and so on.
As one character birgitte talks about her 1000s of different names in different tunrings and different ages. She only ever had her true name a couple times and usually after she became famous in the turning
@@gildor8866how? Simple she pushed moraine into a fuckibg river
I just want to say thank you for jot bringing modern day politics into this.seems like almost every reaction to the book series I watch, politics ALWAYS get brought up. You present clearly, and logically. New sub
Robert Jordan - writes arguments where both characters have a point.
Brandon Sanderson - writes arguments where only one character has a point and crushes the other's strawman argument
Rafe Judkins - writes arguments where neither character has a legitimate point.
But regarding the debate with Rand & Egwene, it's very a astute point that Moiraine telling the boys that she will destroy them herself before letting the Dark One have them is more than just a signal of how badass she is, it can also affect their perception of her and make them wary and nervous about her. For example, she asks Rand in the village after the battle if he is having good dreams, but when the boys have the identical dream with the dead rodents, that comes after Moiraine told them she would kill them before letting the Dark One have them. In that situation, even if you remembered her question about dreams, how eager would you be to tell her that the Dark One showed up in your dreams and said "You are mine!"?
Robert Jordan said one of the ideas he wanted to explore in the series was "What would it be like to be tapped on the shoulder and told you had to save the world?" And while the plot and combat and magic stuff are all really neat, WoT is great because he is constantly addressing these emotional issues. Moiraine has a point that the safety of the world is too important to let the Dark One control the designated saviors, but for Rand & co, this is not game theory, this is not strategy, not a trolley problem or weighing the cost and gains for the greater good, it's their lives. Readers often seem to want the characters to approach powers or magical toys or calls to adventure like playing a video game, where you can start again if it doesn't work out. But this is a world where messing with the paranormal can leave you like the poor bastard in the prologue, broken and bereft of everything he cares about, with more blood on his hands than he can imagine.
A point about the Children of the Light and Moiraine stepping over the wall - it goes to show exactly what the relative power dynamic is in this world, and what threat the Children REALLY pose to an Aes Sedai. They challenge Moiraine in what are legitimately suspicious circumstances, where they have probable cause, and BAM! she turns into a giant and terrifies them. They do NOT get to stop her on the road and question her about her business or destination, much less frisk her without her consent and clear disapproval of her companion.
And yet, this is the same TV show that has men so much weaker and much less assertive. Where there is no sign of Egwene's father being in charge of the village, or Tam being a member of the council. It's amazing that Robert Jordan managed to make the characters feel like they were in plenty of danger and create a lot of tension in the books, WITHOUT making the Children a serious threat to an Aes Sedai who sees them coming.
For all their clear eagerness to show the women as powerful and dominant, they want to have their cake and eat it too, and depict their heroines as victims of sexism and patriarchy, as part of that unjust suffering thing to prop up their faves. Moiraine fought off the Trollocs in the books without the Wisdom being lost, without destroying the village Inn which is the center of the community, and without taking a wound. She drove off the Children and was in total control of the situation with the ferryman the whole time. Nothing happened in those encounters that she did not want. But for all that they are depicting Rand challenging Moiraine as being wrong and making her the heroine of the story, and want to show a world with more powerful, dominant and assertive women, but also have Moiraine clearly lacking in power and control over her circumstances and surroundings, where she has to be afraid of the Children.
There are some problems with how the show looks, budget and cgi constraints as well as artistic choices, but I think a lot of the dislike for the show comes down to this - we as fans love these characters, we've grown up with them. I've read a lot of fantasy series over the years and these are still some of my favourite fictional characters. I want other people to get to know and love them as I do.
But the characters in the show are assholes.
Edit; just to say that, continuing the Tolkien comparison, Shadar Logoth is Moria.
Oh yes! I missed the Moria comparison, but you are so right!
I think all of us Fantasy SciFi fans are willing to forgive poor budget issues in exchange for great characters and story.
Thanks for mentioning Moria... I posted a comment about it a little while ago, but had forgotten the NAME of it... so thanks for reminding me.
To be fair to the people of Emond's Field, the story of "their" past is about an event 2,000 years ago. It's like demanding people in Italy live up to the example of the first century Romans, because that's their bloodline.
I'm not seeing myself watching season two. I had to read the series three times to purge myself of season one and I just don't feel like doing that again.
On another note, being as observant as you are I'd like to point out that RJ is the master of foreshadowing. There are no unimportant details in the series. Some he never got around to wrapping up, but some you have already read won't be realized until the series epilog.
I really love that sort if story. It's reconsumable. I'm guessing this will be a series I finish and then revisit.
It's impossible to catch everything on one read through. Whether or not someone decides to read it again really depends on if they think it's worth another go around. We're not talking a short series here and there's a level of dedication to even finishing the series once that puts a lot of people off.
I'd say at least try to finish to book 6. Lord of Chaos is my favorite, though many rightly consider The Shadow Rising the best. Lord of Chaos, on re-reads, is the darkest thing I've ever read. I didn't even talk to anyone at work once while I was reading it, they thought there's was something wrong with me (I'm a bit of a chatterbox normally) lol
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS "reconsumable" is an understatement. After reading or listening to the books 16 times, and having put *many,* *many* hours into looking into details about things in the books since the mid-90's, there are still things I'm learning. Wheel of Time is an order of magnitude beyond anything else I've read in 50 years.
@@haplozetetic9519I was one of the first members of Dragonmount when the website started back in the 90s and was on the fan theory page so much, since we had no more books to read as we waited for the next book to hit the shelves.
Great reviews and good insights. Keep them up!
Can't wait to hear what you say in terms of which chapters are "roughly covered by" episodes 4, 5, and 6....
As you know the show gets worse and worse until we absolutely hate it.
Especially since Mat is the best character in the books by FAR. He's the best friend you could have, he's the best war leader and he's only ever trying to do the right thing. I would like to give one thousand papercuts to every writer/producer who decided to do this bs to Mat.
Thank you for doing this series. I'm really enjoying seeing someone new to both book and adaptation break down their thoughts on both and comparing. Hope you keep it up :)
Man I wasn't expecting my childhood trauma from Chitty Chitty bang bang to show up lol, great videos btw.
This was the episode that drove me from the series. I just didn't get behind any of the character changes so I went back to reread the books.
Me too!
Ok, you got me good with the Chitty Chitty Bang Bang child catcher. I wonder how many people knew that clip.
"I just wish the show hadn't done that" is pretty much the best way to describe the show, I find
Yup. So say we all ☹️
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS now, see... If you're gonna go and make a BSG reference like that, you're just gonna get my hopes up that you'll do a breakdown on that far superior series
@necrosunderground BSG has some pacing issues... and Kara Thrace is a touch too unlikable. But otherwise I loved it. Those first few episodes of himanjty escaping and fleeing across space are some of the best television I've ever experienced.
Review done! 😋
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS truth! Seasons 1 and 2 were pretty tight, although pacing and continuity were definitely problematic 😁
great breakdown. i just subscribed. keep it up. this channel is going to blow up!
Wow. Thanks 😊 I hope it does well. I'll be satisfied with just making a little money to pay for filming and editing equipment.
You're observation is spot on; Jordan was absolutely writing his version of _Lord of the Rings_ when he wrote _The Eye of the World._ The myrddraal are Nazgul rip-offs, for example.
Mat is by far my favorite character in the series, and it's not even close.
Mat is quite possibly the worst written character in the show, and it's not even close.
Mat in the books complains about doing the right thing...while absolutely doing the right thing.
Mat in the books tells everyone in no uncertain terms that he's no hero...while being a hero at every turn.
Mat in the books refuses to commit to anything...while keeping his word without question at every turn.
Later in the series, either Nynaeve or Egwene (I can't remember which) recounts a story of Mat seeing a kid apparently drowning in the Winespring Water in Emond's Field and immediately diving in to pull the kid out while the rest of the people stood and watched. After pulling the kid out of the water, he finds out that the kid was just playing around, and everyone in town gives him a hard time about it. Mat gripes and grumbles about it for the next year, swearing to everyone that he'll never risk his neck to save anyone in the future. The following spring / summer, he sees another kid apparently drowning in the Winespring Water...and he dives in without hesitation to save the kid...who was _actually_ drowning and needed to be saved. At that point, the people of Emond's Field stopped teasing him about what he'd done.
Mat. Is. The. Best.
I read the books as they were released. I understand an adaptation is unable to hew to the original. Attempting to read and watch is not going to sync up well at all. I'm interested to see how you resolve this in the episodes and seasons to come.
I had this issue in Shadow and Bone. I'll make it work as best I can. From what I hear, season 2 will mush mostly book 2 and 3 into it. I might try to get book 2-4 read, just to be safe.
For the costumes - keep in mind that this is supposed to be set in the future. The "breaking" of the world shattered everything and set the the world back in terms of technical development. So there's some basis for the clothes to not be the typical medieval stuff.
As you said , Mat will be the future danger. He come out of nowhere when others were terrified by the destructive shadow. But again a fool , I guess he will play with the emotion of his friends time to time and become the trusted helper of Shaitan.... Finally proved to be a traitor to the dark one too.
No one ever mentions that Thom (who is kind of a major player through out the books) was with the party since Edmond's Field, yet only had like 15 minutes in the whole 1st season. Disgusting!
I agree that the characters have their unlikable childish moments, which you can excuse in the books because they are still children - but in the show, less so. I really missed the Ravens section of the book, though that could be tricky to do in any adaptation. I wish that they had made it a little clearer that going to Shadar Logoth was the only escape from the pursuing trollocs, which seemed significantly less threatening in the show than the books. Entering the city fell a bit flat to me in the show, but I did like the creeping mould effect of Mashidar as opposed to the nebulous fog from the books. The leap from the high walls into the river was unfeasible, but a trope I can understand.
Really enjoying hearing your thoughts on how it is playing out so far. I'm not sure as to the extent the man/woman power dynamic in the show is inherent, or because the dialogue is coming mostly from Moiraine - but the initiation of Egwene and the women gathering round to kill the trolloc do seem to indicate this was a conscious choice. I didn't see any women amongst the whitecloaks though, which is kinda interesting.
Oh! Are there women white cloaks in the book? I didn't notice. There's only been the one encounter with them, so far.
Ah, no. There aren't any female Whitecloaks in the books either, but it isn't explicitly a male only organization.
The power dynamic between the men and the women is NOT inherent... it's artificially imposed on the show by the show-runner.
By contrast, the Two Rivers has the men's Village Council balancing the Women's Circle... or vice versa, depending on your own POV.
The books have actual matriarchies...
I can't recall even ONE "patriarchy" in the books, in terms of nations, like an opposite of Andor... like a place that is always/only run by a man/men.
Ah Shadar Logoth. They did try, but it should have been more creepy. Same with the Ways. Hope they will go with more horror in S2. The childishness from the characters was annoying, I agree. Non-readers didn't really bond with the E5 while watching the show, only with Moraine and Lan, perhaps Nyneave. It really is a pity...
@@angelavm84 Yes! The show-runner and writers did a BAD job with making the main characters likable... except maybe Nynaeve and Lan... Moiraine, not so much, and definitely not any of the other EF5.
The problems with show-Perrin and show-Mat probably don't need any explanation...
Show-Rand is... well... useless and kind of whiny.
Show-Moiraine is basically about how she ought to be (at this point in the show/book), except for being considerably dumber, in large part due to the change of Shadar Logoth and "THAT" scene coming in episode 5 (?) with Siuan... and one could also add episode 8, but not putting the spoilers here.
Did you notice how in the talk between Moraine and Egwene where we find out she can channel the show left out any mention of the male half?
Oh yeah. You're right. I should have mentioned that. I wonder if the show has changed the duality of the magic so that it's now a singularity.
I have read the books a couple of times and absolutely loved them so I was looking forward to the Streaming series but everything I heard about them is that they were really bad so I kind of forgot about them until I saw this series so now I am watching them along with you. You are doing a great job.
Mistrusting Moiraine is a thing in both mediums. Some fault the boys for their mistrust, but forget that Moiraine threatened their lives, to their faces. No one who threatens my life will ever be able to trust that I am loyal, or even cooperative.
Yeah, this was something I thought the show didn't better.
In the books it was explained by Moraine that Aridhol (Shadar Logoth) was an ally of Manetheran during the Trolloc wars a thousand years past. Eventually an evil man named Mordeth became the advisor and started corrupting the ruling house of Aridhol and it spread to the people. Those people eventually disappeared but Mashadar (the smoke) was all that remained. The trollocs were afraid because a legion of them camped in the walls of Shadar Logoth (which means 'where the shadows lie'), and the next morning, the entire legion was destroyed.
The Showrunner had to fight with Sony/Amazon to get the song about Manetherin in the show... The confrontation at the Inn was not in the cards. Maybe they should have re-thought that, but then we would have had to have Moiraine healling half the village at a cost of 10 minutes of air time. Then the villagers would have looked very ungrateful and foolish.
If it was my choice, I would have foregone the healing everyone, and just had the village getting riled up against her. Then have Moiraine tell the story, as though she is trying to make them feel ashamed for their behavior (which is what she does in the book, sorta). Then, the town agrees to at least release her alone, and that's when Tam tells Rand to go with her. I would have made time for this by cutting out the Rand-Egwene romance altogether. Let their relationship be something that understated, but that comes to the forefront in their journey.
I appreciate how well you analyze the show to the books! As a fresh reader you have a careful eye on every scene! However, not all scenes in the books drive the plot forward, and I believe the show is trying to do just that but on a different road. As well, keep in mind that when Jordan was writing this series he didn’t know whether he would make it a trilogy, a 6 book series or more. As such, the speed of the series slows down, which is a luxury the show doesn’t have if they want to adapt 15 books. Your takes are interesting and I will love to keep watching!
I have heard a lot about "the slog". Haha.
I expect an adaptation to make changes and rearrange and cut things where necessary. But some of the changes I have seen in the show so far make it seem like we are in a different universe, and I can foresee some major changes coming down the line that I expect book superfans will hate.
I too was looking forward to Giantess Moraine. Alas, we were deprived.
If I could like your videos ten times, if UA-cam allowed me to, I would. I keep double checking and triple checking and quadruple checking and so forth if I already liked your video, haha. I couldn't agree more on so many points you make. Every time you make a good point I want to like the video again 😂
Hahaha! Thank you! I have my most recent WoT video on its way. Im avout halfway througg editing it.
"You don't want to call it an adaptation if it is not going to be honoring some of the foundational elements of the original story" *Slow clap*
I really like what you are doing with this analysis of Book and show simultaneously. It's clever and interesting. I'm enjoying it a lot. You got me hooked! SUBSCRIBE!
This is like watching an innocent little animal moseying along merrily into a meat grinder.
Probably the biggest insult to the book is the way they changed the one power. In the book the one power has two sources that men and women draw from separately. In the end they need both sources working together to defeat evil. In the show its the men that taint the power that women also draw from.
This is not true. One character who is telegraphed to be dogmatic and biased makes a comment like that in the beginning. Then the show goes on to clearly explain its bc Lews Therin Telamon tried to go up against the Dark One who then rained the male half which is why men can channel go mad now. Just like the books.
@@kayleighpaxton9713 No, it's more than just that one Red sister... it's also Moiraine, as narrator... AND how they twisted/warped LTT's motive for going against the Dark One... AND how they depicted the situation at the time... utopian, rather than losing a desperate fight.
What I suspect ACTUALLY happened... is that they may have INTENDED to have it be "unreliable narrator"... but then the writers who had NOT read the books kept "doubling down" on that original warping, thus reinforcing it.
The kids are only about a year older in the show than they are in the books.
No they aren't. They're several years older, which is a blessing.
@@watcherofwatchers We know that Moraine started searching for the Dragon Reborn about 20 years prior when he was born on Dragonmount. That makes Rand about 19 or 20. Mat and Perrin were born within weeks of Rand. Egwene is the only one who was aged up, because she is about 2 years younger than Rand. Nynaeve is about 25.
Omg loved the lollipop insert. 😂
You are the first person to comment on it 🤭 I guess that movie isn't as well known as I thought.... but that's OK. People like you and I will get a good laugh.
I really appreciate your insights! I've done a super deep-dive of the first season (which does include spoilers of the later books or I would share them here), and I missed a lot of the flaws with episode two that you noticed. I thought I was super thorough, and come from a similar perspective (been in the film industry for over a decade, and assisted with editing novels and scripts). I really appreciate how you kept it to the main points too, rather than getting too bogged down with the more minor errors in the show.
Oh cool! If I forget, when I get to the end of season 1, remind me to go check out your deep dive.
Ok, as a film person, did you notice how crappy the lighting was on the super evil black whitecloak in the scene where he questions Moiraine? It's mainly after he is done questioning them, but oh boy! Someone forgot to get a reflector on that guy. The cinematographer botched a bunch of his shots. He looked like a black silhouette in a white outfit. It always annoys me when this happens. It takes me out of the scene by reminding me that I'm looking through the lens of a camera. 😬
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONSOh yeah! The lighting on Valda is horrible. The editing is *extremely* rough (watch Rand after Mat is Healed by the dagger - he literally sits there for so long he's waiting for the director to say "cut" and looks directly at the camera, not to mention the chase scenes that are laughably terrible - Trollocs, Mashadar, wolves, Dena, Whitecloaks, etc). The cinematography is rough - as far as the framing goes (so many shots that are just barely not centered, or are just really awkwardly framed.
The acting by Moiraine was particularly bad to me as well, but none of the actors really shine aside from Logain to me. Lan, Loial, Ila, Thom, and Perrin have some nice moments individually - but all the rest either way over-act, don't portray any emotion at all, or portray the exact opposite of what they would be going for if that character was in that circumstance (like Moiraine's smile at the end of meeting the Whitecloaks rather than the beginning - makes it feel creepy rather than welcoming).
Then there's set design and props that sometimes shine and sometimes are absolutely horrible (like you just pointed out in episode 6, with Moiraine's growingly sparse bedroom). Ditto to costuming (which you've also called out with Mat's thin bathrobe and Rand's thick fleece coat completely changing the friendly joke into a dick comment).
My background is primarily in visual effects, and those are just as hit or miss. The Trollocs that are done practically I absolutely loved. And I do think a few close-ups were digitally enhanced really well from practical builds. But the fully digital Trollocs were... oof!... Let's just say I hope those animators have a second career in mind. Not to mention how bland channeling looked, and how inconsistent the light from the channeling lined up to the lights on set (whether that's the white glow from a thread, or a fireball moving past Moiraine - it's never motivated lighting). Mashadar was done so poorly that it made an already terrible scene into an even worse one (where it repeatedly recedes just so it doesn't catch our MCs). Obviously what you said with Moiraine being as a separate card as she opened the Ways is so atrociously bad I cringed when I saw it. They didn't even get the motion blur right on her cloak that was flapping in the wind (when none of the other characters seemed particularly affected by the wind - and there isn't supposed to be any wind in the Ways, as you know, that would have otherwise caused that). I could go on and on about that just as much as you have about the writing.
But I have also edited scripts that were small to medium budget projects, and beta read for published novels. That's why I've done that deep dive, and while we do have a lot of the same points, your insights hit things I definitely missed, and (likely just due to limited time) I caught some things that your reviews don't mention.
I'm going to go ahead and condense and revise my deep dives so someone who's about where you're at (but at the end of the first season) can read without any spoilers. I believe there are a few spoilers hidden in there, and I don't want to ruin the books at all for you, because it seems like you're enjoying those at least.
To your opening point, it is a stronger argument than you think. In the books there are two important themes:
1) Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses but we are stronger for it.
2) If we can come together despite our differences we can accomplice great things.
These themes are so fundamental to the series that it underpins the very fundamentals of the magic systems and general world building. Without these themes you can't tell the story.
What are your opinions on the book scene of Rand and the Whitecloaks?
Something you might want to think about with the show is how were the Whitecloaks able to capture an Aes Sedai?
You didn't bring this up in the video but what did you think of the Egwene can channel scene? Why did Moraine think Egwene can channel? It is brought up in the books but not in the show and it is important for later episodes. I'll write more about it on the episodes that it is relevant in.
In the book Moraine is the one that ultimately decides to go to SL but one key difference is that she can create a ward to protect against the evils within. So while it isn't a good choice, she does have a way to keep everyone safe until the Trollocs go into the city.
I rewatched ep 2 to make sure what Lan said. It was "Don't touch anything; only eat what you brought with you." Then everyone decides to touch stuff. So Mat has no reason to think that touching the dagger is a bad idea. You can't eat it and they've been touching all kinds of thing.
You missed 2 big things at the end of the episode or at least didn't bring it up in the video. Where are the Trollocs and Fade? Lan and Moraine come out of the same whole they entered in and they are gone. While you brought up that Nyneave sneaks up on Lan and Moraine, you missed how she got there. There was no horse behind her and the group have been running from the Trollocs and Fade on horse back with very brief rests.
I look forward to episode 3.
Some of your questions are things I had to cut from my video for time's sake.
I think it was important that Rand felt like he was having an out of control reaction to the whitecloaks, and the show just didn't do that.... probably because they didn't want to hint too strong rhat he is the Dragon.
I have no idea how the whitecloaks caught an Aes-Sedai, but I'm assuming they plan to reveal this as some really cool technique they've figured out.
Moiraine and Egwene's scene in the show was so abbreviated. I seem to recall Moiraine saying that Aes Sedai can sense other women who are about to channel. Now I'm wondering why you bring this up as something that is important, later. Do they forget this rule in the show? Ugh! I'll bet that's it.
It always bugs me when people are warned not to touch anything and then they immediately go touching sstuff. LOL. Someone needs to define "anything".
I hope that in episode 3 I have a chance to talk more about Nynaeve's horse scene from the book. To me, even though I found Nynaeve annoying in the book, this scene took her down a peg in pride, and I liked to see her being presented with this opportunity to become a more likable person.
I will hopefully have Ep 3 up in 4 days.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS Women can sense other women that can channel and how strong they will be when they can use all of their strength. They start out with very little strength.
Personally I think the show should have stuck with don't take anything from the city like in the book.
About Nynaeve, she comes off very abrasive and prideful. That is because she is. Think about the first thing we heard about her. She listened to the wind and they should've had a good spring and because they aren't people are looking down on her saying she isn't qualified to be a wisdom. In fact everyone is either afraid of her or angry at her. Until the trollocs attack. Then they just depend on her because she is good at what she does. The only time she doesn't get backhanded thanks or praise is when she tracks down Lan and he is impressed.
You may be able to talk about the scene outside SL a lot soon. Maybe in 4-9 days
@@krissaunders6418 You're HALF correct...
Aes Sedai women can sense other women who WILL eventually channel.
They CAN'T sense the ones who can just be taught, but don't have sufficient strength (or whatever) that they WILL eventually do it.
This is an important difference/distinction.
@@krissaunders6418 Regarding Nynaeve, the show thoroughly botched THE best thing about her... she'll do whatever it takes to do her duty, to protect her people.
She goes after them to RESCUE them from Moiraine... to bring them safely home, "where they belong", to the best of her knowledge, not knowing that their leaving is what protects the Two Rivers.
Her being abrasive isn't exactly or entirely from pride, either.
She needs, and deserves, a certain amount of respect, as Wisdom, but doesn't usually get it... and doesn't know the RIGHT way to get it. so, the cause isn't pride, but inexperience.
Thank you for you video's. This show was just pain for me, and knowing I am not alone is helping my healing process.
It doesn't help that the show runner has pretty much said he feels the books needed to be femininized and updated for the modern era. Most of the writers room has also expressed their distain for Robert Jordan, feeling he was a Misogynist, they want to basically create their own show and just slap "The Wheel of Time" to get the initial fan base.
I hear this a lit from the book superfans. When will these Hollywood writers learn that it's a bad idea to make major changes to an IP with a preexisting fanbase that LOVES the source material?
Well said, I can never understand why people buy an established IP, change large parts of it and then blame the audience for not liking it!
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS The thing I don't understand is how people say "you don't expect a direct adaptation" and of course nobody does. However the opening chapter could have been kept instead of that garbage about the women's circle. Instead of just keeping the material from the book they substitute it with trash that does not belong, or add to the story in a meaningful way.
This is what happens to failed novelists who write for TV and want to tell there story using somebody elses name.
What I find interesting that while I hear a lot that the show is alledged more "feminized", if you look at the net-result its the women who come across looking stupid. In episode 8 its Moiraine and Siuan, in the book two of the wisest and most knowledgable persons, who break the Dark One out of his prison. How is it "feminization" if you turn two of the books heroines into arrogant idiots?
Wow, their outfits looked like the costumes I used in high school plays.
Them cutting Moiraine turning into a giant was the biggest gut punch (of many) for the show. It is always possible they shove it into a later season (I doubt it). Though, having it's context changed, it just never will be quite the same.
I think you are the first person to agree with me that this part in the book was amazing and should have been in the show. 😃
@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS
@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS whaa?!?!. Seriously? I mean I can honestly understand cutting or reimplementing Baerlon. I went into it thinking there was a decent chance that gets cut. But even if you do that, put an homage to this scene in *somewhere*. Restructure where she confronts the Whitecloaks in a way so that something even reminiscent of this makes sense. Even if they don't do 50 ft tall.... have something! It won't be quite the same, but it's better than nothing.
@@pixcalcisagree
I really appriciate you doing this, you have very good analysis and comments. I tried to watch the show knowing nothing about the WoT world and couldn't get into it. I came back after listening to the first 3 or 4 books to try again and was really turned off by how different the show is from the books.
If I ever thought the books were well represented in the show, and I hadn't read them..... I probably never would. 😬
Thanks for the compliment. I try to keep things informative and entertaining. 😎
the problem with the tarren ferry it made morriane objectively evil as she could of stopped the whirlpool and saved the guy, she essentially killed him with the 1 power
Also Book matt isn't younger than show matt, they're the same age, but it's their experiences matts a village kid of 20 in the books ( I'm assuming the other is fa part of America where 21 is adult and can drink legally),but yeah they do state that dragon mount prophecy happened 20 years ago the exact same time making them all 20 in both the show and the books except for Nynayeve who's 24 i think in both. It's 1 of my pet pieves about the show it makes the characters so cosmapolitan with their clothing styles and knowledge of the world and the way they act, when they're sposed to be naive young adults learning about it through this journey. from a reclusive village.
It's actually well done as it leads into an explanation of the three oaths and the little loop holes around them which become extremely important later on. It's a very important scene.
The show ruins Mats character. In the books he initially starts out as a bit annoying and silly but by the last half of the series he is the character I look forward to the most. He was developed so well and his character has the most personality. Unfortunately, the show has really poisoned the character and there seems no way he can end up good.
On the costumes, sheepskin is because shepherding (alongside two rivers tabac) is a key agricultural industry in the two rivers. On modernism versus old fashioned costumes…. Err well … time is a wheel but also RJ draws influence from across time and geography.
Your summary of the TV series at 37:27 perfectly encompasses the vast majority of reactions found cross the globe.. I’ve never read the books but can tell from your synopsis of both storylines that I *vastly prefer the book* over whatever they have going on with the tv series. I think it’s a bit disingenuous to call the tv version an “adaptation “ of The Wheel of Time story. Thank you for another excellent comparison & summary video. It is appreciated.
In the books Matt is annoying at first, but he grows into the absolute best character.
Yes, everyone loves Mat because he has an absolutely golden heart and he's the most fun in every way imaginable. The show needs to die a shameful death.
SPOILER:
I think one of the absolute best scenes that explains Mat's character is when he has Harnan shoot Renna. He did what he had to do to protect Luca's show, the freed Aes Sedai and Tuon...and he _hated_ himself for doing it.
"Never again, he thought as Renna floated out of sight around a bend. If I die for it, never again."
@@matthewjaredcox9753
Dovie'and se tovya sagain.
@frocat5163 yes, it is.
I really enjoy you're way of comparing the show and book. Very cool. I can tell you will love the books albeit with criticisms.
Thanks 😊 I am already enjoying the first book a lot. Hopefully, I come to really love the show, too.
What is truly amazing is how you argue (at 22:00) the natural conclusion of the TV show's setup (a war of the sexes) which is the antithesis to the main theme of the novels (men and women working together).
Yes but that theme doesn't happen until way later in the books. In the first few books it's all about men vs women.
FYI - the boys are 19 1/2 in book 1, (it's marchish and they're born in November in our terms) the show only aged them up a few months to explicitely 20. Egwene got a 2 year bump to match them.
Good summary and explanation! you pick up on a lot of changes in the show that will introduce lots of problems going forward.
All you need to know if you want to understand how the show makes changes to the books is the following:
1. Women are perfect and can never do wrong.
2. Men suck and are to blame for everything.
3. In case a Women does something wrong, it was actually a man's fault.
This then extends to:
4. If there is a powerful moment for a Man in the book then cut it or even better give it to a Women.
5. If there is a powerful moment for a Women in the book, then multiply it by a factor of 100 for the show.
BTW. Don't hesitate to make longer videos, they are great to listen to!
And as an added benefit you dont need the anotations so people can listen without missing those points.
Re-watching this. Voice acting at 8:08 is *Chef’s Kiss*
Bahaha! It's actually a dream of mine (one of many) to be a voice actor for an anime character. I think it would be so fun.
The whole Min situation has me pretty upset. That encounter being skipped... I can't wait to hear future reviews once you finish the books!
Not skipped, delayed.
just found your videos. i'm a fan
I am really enjoying your approche to this story. Reading the book along with the show is an interisting idea and something I would like to try with a series some day.
Wilma vibes. Love your comparisons.
Lmao this lollipop thing was great
It was inspired 😋
Welcome to The Wheel of Time!
Tips for new readers:
1. Almost everything in WoT has more to it than is apparent.
2. All views and opinions of characters in the books are unreliable. Just because someone makes a claim or even thinks it, doesn't mean they are correct.
3. Whatever you expect will probably be shown to be wrong.
4. Search *nothing* on line unless you want major spoilers.
The story in the books really starts to become it's own thing in books 3-5.
My own opinion about the show is that it feels very heavy-handed, and completely lacks the subtlety of the books.
Your final comment about the heavy handedness of the show seems right on the money. Also... seems like they saw WoT as a moneygrab,, due to the huge book fanbase.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS The "word" is that Amazon wanted this to be their Game of Thrones.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS They were definitely looking for something they hoped would be popular, but it's a shame they settled for an adequate sized audience with a sub par show when they could have had a bock buster.
@@Nyet-ZdyesPretty much every fantasy tv show that came after GoT is like that. I love GoT's success for putting fantasy back on the map for adaptation. But I also dislike it for the same reason. Books that I want good adaptations of risk getting bad ones instead because they see it as a potential cash grab only. Rather then wanting to do it right in order to prove it possible.
It will be a long long time until companies who gives the green light for a new fantasy TV show doesn't do it because they just want another GoT.
Because fantasy tv shows has suddenly become so popular, there is no longer as big an incentive to do it right. Because when something is at the height of popularity, even mediocrity can make money.
@@kopicat2429 Yes... in the modern "climate", I'd rather my favorite books not get any adaptation at all.
It might be different if the author retained creative control.
This show made me want to read the books again. Feels like they were the primary books that accompanied me during my youth.
Good breakdown! Way more nuanced than I could every be.
One particular thing that I liked about the show and at the same time disliked actually was the diversity, and the bad costumes were the reasons why I noticed that. It felt to me like a bunch of Londoners were meeting for cosplay. Completely immersion-breaking. And although standard in Fantasy, Jordan didn't do a good job by portraying the countries in his world as very homogenic societies. That is, despite the past having been a very utopian high-tech plus magic world (some think actually a future Earth). And so there was that opening to interpret the books and portray the past as a global and diverse society that devolved technologically after the end of the world - which means there are few reasons to portray the sea folk as black people, or the Tairens as mediterranean, like Jordan did. The fact that they squandered that opportunity underscored the writer's complete interest in or disregard for the books.
‼️ I know this is an old video but I just discovered your channel. And I completely agree with you on the costume design! It literally pulls me straight out of the show every time! And it makes it feel like there wasn't any effort or love put into the show. Because it really isn't a small thing. Because it looks like they spent a lot of money on these modern clothes. Because a fleece lined cloak like you mentioned in the beginning of this video is several hundred dollars. So for that surely they could have gone to a thrift store or bought material. Because only the parts of the costume that is being seen needs to be accurate you know what I mean? Like for example if the actors need to be warm because they're filming somewhere cold they can still make a cloak out of material that's. Accurate or a dupe for period accurate and then have them wear a sweater or something underneath the coat because that's not going to be seen by the camera. It just really bugs me I feel like costume design is a good indicator of how faithful an adaptation is going to be of the books. For several series such as Little Women, like the costumes were so bad in the modern movie it was obvious it was going to be bad. Not to mention it really dates the show. Costume design is extremely important and I really feel like the costumes are indicative of how the rest of the show is going to go. Frankly I'll be surprised if it doesn't get canceled before the series is over.
I think you are spot on. And yeah, I have a bet that the show will not make it to 5 seasons.
It's funny the comments about the Peddler not being properly set up in the books with foreshadowing, compared to the comments about how Min's viewings signify the importance of the wolf when Perrin encounters one, and the idea that the dreams in the books will have aspects that are recognizable in hindsight. Since it's not a spoiler, or rather, the show has spoiled it for you, I can tell you that Jordan did the same thing the peddler.
Horses at Shadar Logoth is not a problem. Animals balk all the time. Sometimes it is because they know there is a snake. Sometimes it is something else that bothers them. Usually if the bother is below a certain threshold, a good heel kick will get the horse moving again, tho not always.
The point where Rand stands up to Moraine was a mistake because when the power shift does happen in the books is what makes Moraine such a great character. Mat is a self serving jerk, at least that is what he tells himself, but he is not a thief. The whitecloaks are not evil, they are radicals. They just say and do what normal people think. How we are really introduced to the whitecloaks as characters is another thing that is very important. It was this episode that made realize we were not going to get to see an adaption of the books.
Uhm, you think the Whitecloaks have been misrepresented here? They are radical zealots who rape, murder, and pillage in the name of their zealotry. The organization is corrupt to its core. They are an effective force of evil, even if they don't actually realize it.
The whitecloaks are definitely evil. They terrorise communities and execute people simply because one of their neighbours suggested that they might possibly maybe be a darkfriend. The things they do during the series are pretty monstrous.
The point about Mat's thieving tearing his character down as it goes on is excellent.
I also appreciate the clothing notes. I thought the same thing about Rand's clothes, but I don't have the understanding to tell whether or not my instincts are right.
The setting IS supposed to be our world flipped around in the turning of the Wheel. Look at the stories Thom hypes during his preview performance in the village - Lenn who flew to moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire (John Glenn and Apollo 11 "the eagle has landed"). Anla the Wise Counselor (advice columnist Ann Landers) the giant Mosk with his lance of fire that could reach around the world (MOSCow with ICBMs) who fought Elsbet the Queen of All (Elizabeth II, Queen of the UK and the Commonwealth during almost the entire Cold War, and for more of it than any other head of state), Matarese the Healer, Mother of the wonderous Ind (Mother Theresa of India).
Lan is a Warder. He is bound to Morraine by the One Power. He can feel her location. He must protect her always. You will see.
You’ve got good instincts regarding Mat in the Amazon series. I recall him as a much more likable character in the book. He came off as a bit of a rogue who was either a victim or a benefactor of his luck. The Amazon series paints him as a darker more nefarious character. I read these so long ago that I did not find myself hating the show and actually it’s making me consider re-reading the books. I tried an audiobook with Rosamund Pike but it seems to lull me to sleep. 😴
One minor correction re: Shadar Logoth. In the book, Moiraine told the Two Rivers that the trollocs would not pursue them into Shadar Logoth but didn't (initially) tell them WHY. Only when they encounter Mordeth and come running back does she actually tell them the backstory about how Aridhol became just as terrifying as the Shadowspawn they fought. I think it was Mat who (correctly) pointed out in the book that all she told them was that the trollocs wouldn't follow ... so, yeah ... the boys weren't entirely in the wrong there and it goes to Moiraine (and the general Aes Sedai) insistence on keeping secrets, which also goes toward the general populace strongly distrusting Aes Sedai. Notably, Nynaeve is already in the group by this point, having joined at Baerlon, but they skipped that.
But yeah ... the show just keeps screwing things up and messing up the narrative in a way that seems intentional and not just for adaption purposes. Brace yourself: it only gets worse from here on...
27:57 Farther when talking about distance, further for everything else.
Mat is kind of a douche in the first book or even a couple, but he easily becomes my favorite character before the mid-point of the books.
The Whitecloaks costumes were absolutely trash and illogical. They are suppose to be religious zealots, but as a highly organized military, kind of like cultish Knight Templars. Their armor would be very practical, but with clear "White" drapery and whatnot.
The dynamic of Lan and Moraine is actually very interesting, because they are written as being very close, to the point you could easily assume there is some sort of relationship between them, but it is pretty much purely non-sexual and very much built greatly on trust. Moraine is the clear leader of the two, but there is a level of... partnership... and Lan is afforded a certain amount of power to call the shots when dealing with things that fall under his specific ... role??? He will back her decisions without question, even if he disagrees with them, but when he makes a stand on certain decisions, she will respect them. This shows that they display an outward appearance of 100% unity, but there is a complicated dynamic and they both lead in their respective roles.
Again, you make even-handed comments (thank you) and offer observations/raise questions/theorize predictions that are on point but I will avoid discussing for reasons involving a mix of book and show spoilers. In classic WoT fandom parlance, read and find out (RAFO) or watch and find out (WAFO).
You asked for non-book reader perspectives - they are many episode-by-episode reactions from non-book readers on UA-cam that you might find illuminating. I would be happy to recommend a few channels if you were interested. (There are also videos of show watchers who then went on to read book 1 or more talking about their perspectives from consuming WoT content in that order.)
In light of the many other commenters on your video talking about Mat, I readily agree that there are some important differences between show Mat and book Mat but I don't agree with those claiming the show destroyed Mat's characater. But first, a factual point for your video - my understanding is that the boys in the show are more developmentally matured but still roughly the same age as the boys in the book. In the books the boys are 19 going on 20 but Mat in particular acts very immaturely for his age.
I think some readers who are Mat fans may underestimate how much their retrospective views of (book 1) Mat are shaped by a) Rand’s favorable perspective on Mat (compared to how Nyn, Eggy, and the older Emond’s Field adults objectively treat and talk about Mat), and b) Mat’s expanded treatment in later books (compared to in books 1-2 where he has no POVs and can be quite unpleasant at times).
Some show critics also appear to discount everything the show does to frame Mat as a flawed but sympathetic character - e.g., in e1, he has a troubled home life, which he responds to by doing whatever it takes to care for his sisters (as opposed to following his parents’ troubled example); and, in e2, he repeatedly displays emotional intelligence and true friendship toward Perrin (the Laila knife gift), Rand (pacifying him post Moiraine fight), and the group (the show portrays him intentionally telling jokes and starting the Manetheren song in order to raise the group’s spirits). Finally, there is a show production complication coming up - that I won’t spoil for you but something you’ll immediately recognize when you get to it - that the show tries to manage by leaning into the darker aspects of Mat’s character.
Great insights into Mat. There is something about the characters that I'm not finding really magnetic. I have to think more about it before I can really nail down what it is. For Mat, I suspect that the show is intentionally making him unlikable because I think he's being set up to betray the others. I'm about 80% certain that he's going to somehow cause harm to the others due to his self interest. If it's supposed to be forgiveness by his love for his sisters, then they need to introduce a substitute for that.... because his sisters aren't there. Maybe they could reveal that his sisters are abused if he isn't there for them. We should see him constantly worrying about them and bringing up how worried he is about them. Otherwise, they are relying on his having crappy parents to make us feel sorry for him.... but a difficult past does not excuse poor behavior in the present. It only gives a reason for it.
@@TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS You've repeatedly highlighted the show's portrayal of Mat's willingness to gamble and steal (though I assume you're being hyperbolic/joking when you refer to it as a gambling addiction and kleptomania - as a factual matter, there are defining characteristics to those mental health conditions that Mat does not possess in the show). I think it's completely fair for you to analyze how the show is portraying those qualities and how that may affect audience views of the character or other issues, relative to Mat's portrayal in book 1. In response, however, I would like to highlight one relevant detail about Mat that is a spoiler for his personality/character traits as of book 3 (when you first get his POVs) but not a plot spoiler. If you don't want even that former kind of spoiler, stop reading here!
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[SPOILERS BELOW - you've been warned!]
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Mat is a frequent gambler and sometimes thief in the books. (The stealing is less pronounced and more debatable than the gambling aspect, so some readers may balk at the latter characterization of his actions, but at a minimum he toes the ethical line of theft throughout the course of the series.)
The show CREATED Mat's terrible home life. Nothing the show does to try to mitigate that excuses their own decision.
@@Nyet-Zdyes Other than the fact that RJ establishes that Rand and Perrin like Mat before the book events begin, what does Mat do to establish himself as a likeable character or someone the audience should root for in book 1 (or book 2)? Note that this UA-cam channeler's video expresses a frequently-expressed view among early book readers that Mat can be unlikeable (many then have a change of heart beginning in book 3). I'm not convinced a direct adaptation of book 1 would make audiences sympathetic toward or like Mat (and we'll never know for sure). Meanwhile, I am reasonably confident the show succeeds in making audience members sympathetic toward Mat (having watched many reaction videos to the show from non-book readers).
@@Patrick-kh4bx In the books, book 1, Mat is entertaining... his pranks and jokes.
Teenage boys and very young men go for that stuff.
Girls, young women, and older adults, not so much.
The sympathy for show-Mat comes from the way that they twisted his family and how he takes care of his little sisters.
But sympathy doesn't mean that they LIKE him... that's a higher bar to meet.
What gets me about the costumes in the show, is that nearly every piece seems like it was newly made and pulled from wardrobe for the shooting. Unlike LOTR films where every piece of leather that should look used, was deliberately worn down to look used. These things and when I see clean peasants wearing rags that look like they were torn by hand and have had some 'dirt' smudges applied to their faces with makeup sponges to show they are poor - these are the things that can really ruin my suspension of disbelief. :(
Just wanna put this out there, Bela is the Creator. Change my mind! But seriously, best horse!
my problem with taren ferry in the show is that, one we get a ferryman who had no survival instinct, like the trolleck horde is right there within spitting distance. Furthermore, it makes moraine seem more justified in sinking the ferry, where as in the books, she sinks it claiming that the trollecks would use it, but there is no real evidence other than her word, in the show we can see the trollocks on the dock. We later get the distrust of moraine in the next chapter, when she straight up says "Before I let the Dark One have you, I will destroy you myself."
Lol. I didn't even think of that, but you're right. The ferryman was an idiot.... but he had to be, so that he would die and the audience would feel conflicted about Moiraine's intentions.... (I was being sarcastic here... obviously this is what the writers wanted.... but it's a cheap shortcut).
i would love to se the longer versions of this
Oh man, I'm late to this party, but it's great watching you get red-pilled against these Amazon hacks. Nice pupper btw. (Edit: Extra points for the Childcatcher from Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang!)
I always picture the Childcatcher luring the kids out with candy whenever a character goes alone to investigate something a dangerous place.
Robert Jordan thought the Lord of the Rings was unrealistic, so he sought to write a more believable store along the same lines.
Good reference to Chitty Chitty Bang Bang 😊😊😊😊