The interesting thing about the psionic soldiers to me is that they are _not_ MELD-infused. In fact, there's a Second Wave challenge that outright forbids bio-mods for your psionic soldiers. This implies that the psionic potential we unlock during the campaign is purely human (and probably the reason why the Ethereals were interested in our species to begin with). It was always within us.
Yeah you are right that's the plot of the story The Ethereal's body were falling and humans are the best substitutes And every species we fought were failed attempts
The part at 6:40 where you criticize her for saying "Hey, maybe you should try using tactics that don't damage the research material" is like criticizing a engineers who say "Hey, could you try not blowing up the bridge you're liberating? that's gonna make my job hard"
By the end of the alien hunters DLC, I wanted to arrest Dr. Vahlen. Even if you didn't lose anybody to the rulers, the fact that they exist shows a criminal negligence of ethics that led to XCOM facing one of its most dangerous enemies - even the new Chief science officer sounds like he's desperately trying not to say "why does the Berserker Queen exist". Nobody should have to tell her not to do something as dangerous as that, no matter how likely she was to do it - she knows better!
She dug around in creatures made by the enemy, potentially figuring out a way to bypass the Elders' control over the subservient alien species. She could have cut the war shorter. And three got loose. The Chosen and the Avatar are made by the Elders and present far more of a threat. She accepted the risk. Her lab was on a remote island and she did all she could to contain them. Anyone with less precision than her would have caused more damage. She was not negligent, she just failed like anyone else would. And she was likely one of the ones who paid for it first.
With all due respect, I think you are missing the bigger picture. The game starts with the quote because of the general theme of the game: Where is the line when it comes to survival? In that sense, it seems to me that the characters in the game are supposed to be your angel and devil. From things like Shen's pause and uncofortable tone as he has to admit the future mec-soldiers will have to be amputatees and Valhein's insistance on preserving every scrap you come across it makes it feel much more like a choice you willingly have to take and damn the consequences that follow, with Bradford being there to remind you of what's the most important thing (a.k.a. survival). Even in her XCOM 2 mission she says that she FINALLY has the ability to pursue her own research. During Enemy Within, she is under your control. Every single despicable action she does has your signature on it. Genetic alteration, live speciment "interrogations", psionics; it may have been suggested by her, but you, the commander of XCOM project, listened and aproved it. And how could you not? What is one soldier linked to a vast alien pseudo-hive-mind for the rest of their (albeit short) life compared to survival of literal bilions? Do dozens of dead civilians matter if your squad managed to take down the terror-party? Is privacy really that important when tracking a terrorist organisation helping aliens? The game is questioning you and how far you are ready to go when everything is on the line and all characters are a perfect representation of that, for in the end Oppenheimer may have believed he was Death, but the bomb was dropped with (edit because I'm stupid) Truman's authorisation.
@discipleofkrolm agreed, with the weird exception of "The Volounteer", since them interactibg eith the elder device actually links them to their hivemind. Also, I got to ask how many times did you managed to kill 3+ civilians in a single move because you used a MEC's emp blaster? I swear those things are more dangerous than granades.
@discipleofkrolm The emp pulse is the tier-3 suit ability in vanilla game. Can't really blame you f9r not knowing that, it takes around 205 meld to get there. I highly recommend using them though. If you can get tier 1 suit around the second month the game becomes much easier. Also, without the foundry upgrade to their movement, they're almost tied for movement with Assault, so they mesh with snipers really well. Last playthrough I did I managed to get 3 tier-3 MECs (colonel rank) before doing the final mission and I can tell you the two sectopods didn't make a detnt and all three survived two seperate psi-storms f4om the etherials. I'd still suggest pairing them up with a heavy with a shredder rocket.
@Morgan Allen I think the quote is more of a reference to the theme of us becoming like the aliens. Cold-hearted tyrants. But we learn upon hearing the Ethereals' plans that this won't happen. The Ethereals are driven by desperation to rapidly subjugate and experiment on other races due to their inherent muscular atrophy. Humans don't suffer that weakness. So, in the end, we can breath a sigh of relief knowing that as long as we will never be driven to the same lengths as the Ethereals were when they made the terrible things in the first place. We were never playing with the Devil's toys. All the Ethereals gave us was the knowledge of how much our own species could achieve. Something they envied us for.
The gene therapy, MEC modifications, and psionics aren't even that bad. Using MELD saved countless lives that could have died to tissue rejection or metallic reaction. It's well-known that the psionic abilities were always latent within mankind. Again, we probably just discovered it in a safer way than we would have without the Ethereals' intervention.
@@bigmonkey1254 I'm pretty sure we suffer from the same condition as the Etherials. It's called "getting old and die". The Etherials were seeking eternal life, but all they managed to do was postpone their death. When they invased Earth, they were getting desperate as their science couldn't prolong their life for much longer. We, humans, have been seeking a way to achieve immortality as well, modern medicine doubled our average life expectancy. And we may very well follow the steps of the Elders in our pursuit for longevity. I think the crux of the question is how far are we willing to go to achieve our goals, and what those goals are.
5:50 You are misrepresenting what she said. She is not gushing over the possibility of real mind control, she is showing fear at how this power invalidates all of the progress XCOM has made. She is not showing a lack of humanity here, but quite the opposite. She is showing that she still identifies with the XCOM project and therefore humanity, and sees the bigger picture of what mind control means for the war.
yeah, I always read that as despair at the power of psionics instead of what this udue saw. to me its clear he got some early beef with vahlen and just read the wors in her at every possibility.
Although Vahlen is certainly the most eccentric member of staff, she's really not as bad as claimed here. When she sees EXALT soldiers, she expresses her reservations about how far she would allow genetic modifications to go. When she performs experiments, it is done with the help of volunteers. You said they were "forced against their will". This is plainly false. Both she and Shen refer to the soldiers who undergo modification as "volunteer". Also, the soldier who connects to the alien hive mind is referred to by the game text as the Volunteer. Since you select these soldiers for the procedures, that means that *every* soldier on the base volunteered. The MELD that she is using makes the experiments far safer than they would be as she quickly determined that the substance was used to prevent foreign material rejection in the aliens, meaning she was not reckless at all. If anything, given that Vahlen's field of research prepared her mind for exposure to the knowledge of alien species, she behaves in the most responsible manner of any scientist who could be assigned this task. And she's not ignoring the militarization of these technologies. That interpretation of her being too optimistic seems way off to me. She's using these advancements for weapons *now*. She's looking forward to when they won't be needed as weapons anymore. How does that make her unethical at all? She's looking for hope for humanity in a dark time. Her comment on the sectoid commander's psionic ability isn't callous either. She sounds shocked. She sees the implication and horror of this power. Just because she isn't devastated doesn't mean she's uncaring about the soldier. I'd rather have a team who doesn't break into tears at every offense the aliens commit. It shows commitment to protecting humanity as a whole. As for XCOM 2's events, she was working on a project that could have cut the war short. Failsaves were put in place and the experiments were performed in a remote location to slow the advance of the escapees. But they got out anyway. In the end, she was the first to pay for a failure which was out of her control. A failure which she knew to admit to. She's a bit eccentric and comes across as somewhat fanatical, but really she does what she can to control a nearly uncontrollable situation and does what is most likely the right thing for humanity. Don't forget, it was Vahlen who warned Bradford that a greater threat was likely imminent after the destruction of the hidden alien base and who wanted to deliver her private findings to you, the Commander. You're also demonizing psionics a lot. Mind control is a possibility. But so are many other helpful applications. As is said repeatedly, the psionic abilities are a natural property of humanity. If anything, uses alien techniques to unlock it is more ethical than the painful trial and error we would have used on our own. Vahlen is doing the right thing in using the gifts and opportunity she has to give humanity abilities which can change many things for the better. Yes, they can be used for evil. But such is true for anything us humans obtain. She is sharing her findings with those who will likely use it for humanity's better. Also, the comparison between her and Oppenheimer is not entirely fair. Oppenheimer was working on a weapon based on a pre-established field of science with the intent of destroying human life. Vahlen was analyzing alien artifacts for use in war, which she hoped could be developed into a peaceful field after the war. The nuclear reactor had existed before Oppenheimer worked on the bomb. But Vahlen had seen aliens until the moment people were forced to fight them. She is making the best of a bad situation, not minimizing the risk that her findings could be twisted. Sorry, but I'm getting a strong impression that you're conflating level-headed analysis of a stressful situation with callous, selfish curiosity. As you said yourself, Vahlen expresses genuine concern. Yet, you seem more interested in overshadowing that with statements that *could* denotatively represent careless curiosity. It's especially unconvincing when her tone during these allegedly cold-hearted comments sounds more apprehensive and cautious than fanatical. I was excited at first to see an analysis on Dr. Moira Vahlen. She's my favorite character in the game. But this is just taking every good thing she does and immediately assuming she's careless and crazy for doing what any decent person in her position would if they could even though she has clearly shown restraint and a firm sense of humane ethics.
So i didnt read your entire comment bc holy shit but the dr's comments on exalt is very funny considering that the mutations You can get are way more extreme than anything exalt hss
So basically, the problem lies in between the connection of the story telling and the gameplay. There is a disconnect because the player 'picks' the characters that are being treated for psionic or MELD treatments. The characters, by admission of the story, volunteered for this. So basically you can either picture it as - everyone has already signed off on this and is willing for you to pick whoever and put them into the super soldier program - OR - the guy or gal you picked specifically requested it and that is why 'you picked them'. it's mental gymnastics, but that is kinda where that disconnect lies. It makes sense, but it also - doesn't.
This! This corrects everything this video repeatedly gets wrong! It also doesn't help that Dr. Vallah is the best in her field because she knows where to push in her research. In a structured society it's hard to fight for a single individual when all of society is in danger.
@@majorplothole2620 the game doesn't specify this but XCOM soldiers are selected from armies around the world who are ranked above average in skills and they volunteered to serve earth on a global level instead of a national scale. It's definitely not known if they signed up for MELD or PSI training but the game gives the feel that the soldiers aren't backing down from the opportunity. I personally wouldn't want to be part of Shen's MEC project but then again... I'm not XCOM material...
"The nuclear reactor had existed before Oppenheimer worked on the bomb." I guess? Since you need one to enrich the uranium. That said, I don't think anyone made electricity with a reactor until the soviets came along... and that was after the bomb.
There's a bigger problem that you are ignoring: YOU. She can only do any of these things cause YOU approved them. You are the Commander, the one with the final say. Just as Shen can't do anything without your approval, neither can Vahlen. This was a war for the survival of the species. If we worried about ethics and whatever while in a seriously desperate limited time for our species survival, we would all die. XCOM needed someone who COULD get things done. But they also needed a Leader, someone who could not be told no or ignored: YOU. The Commander. Paint her as evil all you like. But at the end of the day, YOU APPROVED ALL OF IT! She can't do anything without your say so. And if she were to be tried for war crimes, you would join her, cause every "evil experiment" has your signature of approval on them.
True but xcom lore says mid way through xcom 1 you lose the base defense and she goes off and does her own research. She choice to make those alien leaders
@@joeykonyha2414as the aliens do. That's probably some form of superiority or making an example. Also a lot of Scientists specifically were allowed to escape in exchange for research
Counterpoint to your objections that Vahlen only cares about the possible research: Yes, but that's what you want. That is why she isn't in charge of the operations. Her entire focus is on the research potential. That is her job. It is your job as the commander of the operation to weigh the pros and cons, as well as the risks. Now, of course, to properly do THAT job, she must adequately inform you of those risks. If you can point to an instance where Vahlen knew of a risk and failed to inform the Commander/Council of it, then the criticism would be far more fair. As it is, the majority of your criticisms seem to boil down to her doing her job rather than yours, or failing to let her emotions lead her. Now, you make many good points. Science without ethics or moral guidance are more of a threat than a boon. This is true. This is why a technocracy, or a society governed by educated elites, is HIGHLY undesirable. There is no inherent moral necessity to science. Thus, so long as the temptation of progress is great enough, any risk can be taken. Maybe they convince themselves that adequate safeties are in place. Maybe the 'greater good' means that the ends justify the means. Given enough time and power, this is the road that 'progress' always leads us down. You are right to be cautious of Vahlen going to that conclusion, too. But that is why she is not in overall control of the XCOM Project. Her biases and agendas are meant to be checked by you and the Council. And they are. It is true that all of the research she conducts will undoubtedly lead to repercussions for human society at some distant point, but again, counterpoint: If you are unlikely to see tomorrow, then you cannot afford to worry about next week. That is a basic fundamental reality of this cost/benefit analysis. And while the end results may not be optimal, they might be your only true option. There are many situations in which you can only hope that whatever problems you create with something new, can also be solved with that same new thing. Sometimes they cannot. But eventually, we do have a tendency to figure our problems out through a process of discovery. In any other scenario, your concerns would be more than fair, and Vahlen should be stripped of her role. But in a situation where your soldiers are all going to die if they do not win, the ethics of changing their anatomy seem trivial. I would also note that at no point does the game imply that any soldiers are experimented on without their consent. The experiments are not ethical, true, but I do not think we can claim they are forced. The restraints you see are probably used to control seizures (we're messing with their brains after all) or to keep them from hurting people if they lose control. The dilemma is this: You either get to see and (hopefully) solve a new problem tomorrow, or you do not see tomorrow at all. Which would you prefer? Either way, the responsibility is the Commander's, not Vahlen's. She is not in charge. Everything that happens in XCOM 2 happens when humanity is basically already doomed if not for the incredible fluke of the Commander's recovery. It is difficult to blame Vahlen for taking incredible risks to try and salvage a seemingly already hopeless situation. Again, it is about risk/reward. The risk is that an already (apparently) doomed species has an additional problem or two. The reward is that they might not be doomed anymore. It is completely clear that the risks did not work out, because you can win the game without ever taking them. But you have the benefit of knowing that whereas Vahlen does not. Is it fair to condemn her for this? And so my conclusion: It is not clear that Vahlen will doom mankind at all. It seems far more clear that without her assistance, mankind is already doomed. The worst of her failures that we are shown occur when there appears to be no hope for a future anyway, making any risk negligible. She isn't dooming humanity, the aliens are. Her escaped specimens won't destroy humanity before Avatar. Her psychic exeriments won't destroy humanity unless the aliens are driven back, giving humanity enough time to either destroy itself or solve the psychic problem as well in due time. We have no way of knowing which will happen. The new advances are resolved and adapted to, or used to destroy us after the aliens are gone. Both are possible, but only if the aliens are defeated first. Almost everything she does can be justified, even if we find it distasteful.
@Morgan Allen the issue with a technocracy is that there's no required deference to ethics or morals. This is the same reason we don't have the military answering to civilian authorities. It jeeps them accountable. I recommend the Spaceship Troopers novels (not movies) to see how such a society can quickly go downhill.
@Morgan Allen Because this particular group of ruling elite can appeal to reason and knowledge as the basis of their authority. It's incredibly dangerous for people who Know Best™ to be answerable only to themselves. While this is hardly unique to a technocracy, the level of horror that can be unleashed by this particular form of goverment is not easily matched. If you want to see the level of depravity we can reach when chasing 'progress' has no moral checks, look at Unit 731 or Joseph Mengele. Now imagine that these weren't just small groups or individuals doing these things, but an entire beurocracy dedicated to such atrocities. Again, all forms of government are prone to abuse, because power is almost never wielded for purely noble pursuits. But the sheer power of science makes it all the more dangerous if it gets out of control (and it will).
@@enderoctanus There is no inherent risk to technocracy that is not extant in any other system of government. If a republic thinks that sacrificing a million lives will save 5 billion, they likely will do so. Many scientists perform their research hoping to better peoples' lives in real, tangible ways. Saving loved ones from terminal illness, establishing unbiased court of law, even automatous armies so that humans don't have to be slaughtered in pointless wars. Science is the observation of the natural world. Technology is the application of that observation to manipulate the natural world. Neither of those are inherently evil or even cold-hearted. You watch plants grow in the rain so you water them so they can grow any time. After watching a bunch of people making ridiculous claims when they don't know the first thing about a global pandemic and knowing that those same people vote on who runs a country, I'd rather put my country's future in the hands of someone who can at least do what they say they can.
@Morgan Allen Yeah, Shen and Vahlen both refer to the soldiers undergoing modification as "volunteers". And Vahlen does express her personal restraint when she sees EXALT soldiers. She sounds a little off-put by them.
I feel like all the soldiers you even have the option of recruiting are happy to volunteer for anything required to defeat the aliens. I think it's more of an assumption than a lack of game mechanic. They probably selected the most selfless soldiers they could because that is absolutely what is required to defeat the aliens. I've always had a bit of a headcanon for X:EU and the orginal Xcom/Xenonauts that some of the soldiers can't even speak to eachother on account of lingual barriers, but they know the routine so well that they can simply do it, but that's simply my interpretation and the game shoes no actual evidence to it beyond being able to select different languages for different soldiers. Regaurdleass, I've found that any game that has a community of people discussing theories and interpretations of it is a sign that it's a damn good game. I really like how Xcom manages to make even thier randomly generated characters still have forms of, well, character.
I think Vahlen isn't a monster, she does have ambition, but it's always the Commander she defers to, and the game's theme is more about asking. "How far as you willing to go to save humanity?" It's a similar question about ethics as the series 24 asks throughout the many seasons. I also would like to bring in quotes from Deus Ex, which deals with these same themes in the form of cybernetics: ""How often have we changed the dream of progress, only to see that dream perverted? More often than not, haven't the machines we built to improve life shattered the lives of millions?" - Adam Jensen. "Technology offers us strength. Strength enables dominance, and dominance paves the way for abuse." - Adam Jensen. "Sarif was right about one thing, it's in our nature to want to rise above our limits. Think about it. We were cold, so we harnessed fire. We were weak, so we invented tools. Every time we met an obstacle, we used creativity and ingenuity to overcome it." - Adam Jensen "Freedom. To those that don't have it, it's more valuable than gold. But where should it start and end? We humans often think we have the right to expand, absorb, convert, or possess anything we need to reach our dreams. But time and time again, hasn't this lead to conflicts with others who essentially believe the same thing?" - Adam Jensen. These are four very different questions that ask the same thing.
When you really come down to it, she's just doing her job. Her job is to understand the aliens and adapt their technology to suit humanity. Whether that be researching better armour, better weapons, augmenting humans or creating, well trying to create, subservient aliens with the alien rulers, it's all for the sake of humanity, no matter how morally grey. And anyway, apart from the alien rulers, it was the Commander who was signing off on what she needs to research, turning that research into something useful and, if needed, picking volunteers for her experiments. It's like blaming a soldier fighting in a war, it's not their fault they follow orders.
I would rather say Dr. Vahlen is a brilliant scientist and really wants to do good things but loses her ethic in the progress and she needs to be restricted in order to do so or she makes really bad things by accident. But does this make her a bad person?
@@bigmonkey1254 we barely can call that show,she is showing restraint but she did not restraint herself 6 of my best soldier goddamn die to three of these mutant alien
This feels like throwing an accomplice under the bus to use her as a scapegoat for the crimes I, the commander, went and said "damn that's pretty cool. Do it." We stamped the papers, we, the player, did it. And let's be honest were dealing with an alien invasion, the least of our concerns is "ethics".
@@djcustoms6637 pretty sure she creates the rulers as a sort of final attempt by her to create *something* able to fight back against the aliens, she just had the misfortune of them escaping and most likely killing her before they could be made to obey her/resistance fighters
There is this theory that Enemy Within is actually not real, that it is the Commander being taken by the Elders and the MELD and the results of using it are just a re-interpretation for the Commander so he doesn't realize he is commanding aliens _against_ XCOM. That the title refers to you, the player, being the Enemy Within humanity - of XCOM due to being captured. If that theory is true, then Valen never did use MELD on humans, nor cut up healthy humans to turn them into mechanized troops. If the theory is correct then those are likely Archons and Sectopods/Mechs the aliens use made to look like humans for the Commander.
Shen is the one responsible for making MEC soldiers, just so you know. That's the character-conflict of Meld: have Vahlen use it for genetic alteration, or have Shen use it for cybernetic enhancements.
That Theory falls apart rather quickly as Bredford knows the Commander, served under him, and sacrifices the lifes of his soldiers to rescue the Commander to make him, Leader of XCom again, even Vahlen mentions, she wishes the Commander was still there, so Enemy Within was certainly real and happening, to the point, and this is a guess, when XCom Base was assaulted.
Vahlen and Shen's varying foresight can also be seen in how their different Meld projects could go back to regular life afterwards. Vahlen's are all permanent, and they will never not be able to have these superhuman abilities and the potential PTSD not only of being in a war but being an experiment. Shen, however, makes an attempt to give the altered MEC soldiers some normality. Their combat look is explicitly a suit that plugs into where their limbs were, and when not in it they are given prosthetics that function just like the limbs they lost. In XCOM 2's DLC, his next attempt at advanced weaponry creation removed the human element entirely and worked with improving the unmaned robots he created in XCOM 1 into the walking drone tanks we see replacing the MECs in Shen's Last Gift.
I would argue that the MEC soldiers are very much permanently affected in the same way Meld-treated soldiers are even if the modification is of a different nature, however complex the prosthetic gadgets they're provided might be the process still renders them quadruple amputees and it will likely still have long-term effects on the soldier's psyche and social life even when reintegrating into civilian life. The field of treatments and prostheses for amputees might be massively boosted by the implementation of alien technology but I'd wager people would still treat these amputees differently whether consciously or subconsciously. I would hope the civilian prostheses they're provided with also simulate the senses and degrees of mobility the limbs once had, that would be life-changing for amputees.
No, the fact that the genetic alterations can be completely switched indicates that they're not permanent. Furthermore, XCOM soldiers will likely go on to use their augmentations for other careers after the war ends.
In complete respect this feels like heavy confirmation bias. To address a few points Yes Shen does express more reservations, but presenting him as being more morally good for doing so while vahlen is morally worse for not seems, disengenious. Gene-modded soldiers have an extra heart, bone marrow that can repair itself faster, and at the most extreme the ability to camoflauge their own skin or even project electricity from it. They're humans, plus some improvements. Mecs however are literally nothing but a human head and maybe a human torso. Shen is literally taking off their limbs in the entirety, whereas Vahlen seeks to improve them. I don't think either are completely morally pure or damned, but you are intentionally trying to paint gene modding as far worse than it is. Vahlen even expressly comments on how their gene research has been subdued to avoid going too far when you first encounter gene-modded exalt units, further reinforcing that she very clearly expresses restraint in these areas. If we are going to demonize Vahlen for alien rulers breaking containment and her failsafes not working as planned, surely we ought to also demonize Shen for his research going directly into bolstering Advent's front lines with mechanized combat units, correct? Mass producible walking tanks, sectopod prototypes, and the countless other technologies Advent canonically pulled from his research. By contrast, the rulers are an inconvenience at best. Shen's tech directly contributed to Advent's genocide and planetary conquering, Vahlen tried to remove genetic blockers the aliens put on their subordinates to make them more subservient and they accidentally got loose leaving a few rulers to go about causing issues for XCOM. As for psionics, once again you're painting it as far worse than it is. Vahlen isn't pushing people beyond the point of recognition - science taken to far - she's doing the exact opposite; her entire monologue at the start is talking about how we ought to look into humanity and find true power from within ourselves, rather than from outside modifications. You keep holding onto mind control as a point against psionics but one specific application of a tool doesn't define it. I can bash someone's head in with a hammer, that doesn't mean hammers are horrible. Her comment regarding an alien mind controlling a unit is frankly what every normal person would see in that situation, you have just seen something that shouldn't even be possible, be done. All of the work you've done to protect humanity, fundamentally undermined by an entirely new concept that we had thought impossible for centuries. When you are presented with a development that would fundamentally recontextualize the fight for your entire species' survival, I don't think worrying about the specific soldier who got mind controlled is necessarily what you should be focusing on. She is addressing the wider implications of what psionic powers would mean for humanity's fight for survival over the well being of the
Yes, I agree with this. Especially considering both Vahlen and Shen refer to the soldiers undergoing respective treatments as "volunteers". Since you chose who get the modifications, that would imply that *every soldier in the base volunteered*.
@@gabrielandradeferraz386 Pretty much, but it's more a joke at how you'd sell lasers for a profit in the original XCOM. You can sell them for half the production cost, and then the researchers arrest a Soviet spy that's been selling your research to the Russians, who claim to have invented it. Sounds like something they'd do. Naturally the response might be to let them then get overrun by body snatchers and terminators...drop a base on the remains called Kiev 2, and call it a day. But yeah, ultimately this means all the civvies and soldiers running around get laser guns, and so do you, if you happen to sit around and pick them up after they get accidentally eaten because there's no way you could have gotten there in time. The X-Division mod takes it a step further, and changes it to say you're sharing your tech, but your funding is basically unlimited when you do. The result is seeing farmer joe come out of his house with an automatic gauss shotgun, and that's hilarious.
I like how Shen is preoccupied with the soldiers, however, depending on your research timing, is very funny to see Shen going from "I am scared to become loss our humanity by trying to make ourselves more than human" to "here's robocops, start putting soldiers in my robocop suits, I am very eager to do so, and we all know robocops are very ethical" to "oh man... it's sad to see these soldiers make a no-way-back investment"
I'd give her funding and all the criminals and prisoners she could ever hope for, either crime drops or crime slowly gets eradicated, AND we get our own flesh abomination to love and hold. When facing enslavement and extinction there are no rules but survive, vahlen is perfectly suited to her role and world.
7:22 Love that you hear the Base A.I say "Commander to the research labs, Commander to the Research Labs." As if the base is saying ' VAHLEN'S DOING CREEPY STUFF AGAIN!"
Soldiers:* got back from a mission using a single grenade to finish off two sectoids * Dr vahlen:"OMG ARE U GUYS SERIOUSLY USING EXPLOSIVES AGAINST THEM ???? I TOLD YOU I NEEDED ALL THE FRAGMENTS OF THAT SECTOID PLASMA PISTOL YOU IDIOTS YOU WOULD RATHER USE EXPLOSIVES THAN PUT YOUR LIVESIN DANGER" Meanwhile at the workshop Soldiers: *brings a mangled carcace of a cyberdisk* Dr. Shen: "you boys are the best, I'll get you plasma weapons 75% off"
Except... your reading things way to humanely Vahlem is a scientiest, chosen for XCOM, one of the very VERY VERY FEW that have the ability to actually help and stop this war before it escalates. Why would Vahlem care about things like a soldiers wellbeing when the world is at stake? Like dont get me wrong its important, but you could be forgiven that Vahlem is a scientist first and a human second. Despite this she is nowhere near as dangerous as Tygen can be during the second game. If anything she is extremely cautious. During Alien Hunters, its made clear that Vahlem like 99.9% of every other person does not know Advent were once humans. To her they could just simply be a new race entirely. Not to mention that Vahlem was more than likely not WILLING WORKING FOR ADVENT, and the Alien Rulers were freed by Vahlem herself (yes I know the mission says Gamma "ESCAPED" but then the logs go on to mess that up by saying that Vahlem lied and freed Gamma herself according to Advent reports). The Snake King was engineered specifically to be INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS to Advent, and it was only the chips Advent had them implanted with that kept them from being hell on earth for Advent. Let alone the fact that The Berserker Queen was a weapon plain and simple to destroy as much as Advents forces as possible. Humanity had lost the first war. Vahlem tried her hardest to push the boundaries to make sure they didnt the first time, then she decided to fully commit to turning everything against Advent, even their own troops. This was a war for EXTINCTION, keep in mind that humanity had no idea the Elders planned on keeping Humanity alive in some way. Human lives cannot be weighed fairly against the entire species. Psionics where always something Humans had deep inside their capabilities, Vahlem just awakened it using some experiments. Just because something isnt moral doesnt mean its not right. Sorry to not consider what the soldiers would want after preventing the extinction of their entire race, its not as if the entire fate of humanity rests on Vahlem's shoulders. No one can know what will happen in 50 years. Especially if Humanity fucking dies in 25 due to concerns about Ethics and Restraint during a Genocide (Yes I know I misspelled her name wrong this entire time, I'm not going back to fix every single time her name is said...)
Yea, nah. You're digging a bit to much. Yea she makes ethically dubious decisions, literally every member of the cast is morally grey. Dr. Shen literally makes amputees of the soldiers to turn them into super mech warriors. The problem this video, and your whole perspective has, is that you shift the blame or the source of the evil to a 'something'. Only people can be/do evil, so psyonics or cybernetics or whatever can't be considered inherently a source of evil. What is vital to recognize is what they are used for. It is wise to question the motive behind any scientific advancement. "We can do x now, great, should we?" The ability to do something like genetic splicing is not evil. Making blind haired blue eyed test tube babies? Well, that very well could be. Evil is always a voluntary corruption or twisting of something else. There is nothing evil in a gun, in a gun factory, or even in a nuclear bomb. The evil, is when it is used by a human. Back to XCOM and psyonics. Is it evil for a soldier to be forced to undergo this operation against their will? Yes. Is it evil for them to volunteer in order to defend humanity better from clearly evil alien invaders? No. Would it be evil for him to abuse his power for authority/wealth/fame after the war is one? Yes. Is it evil for him to use his powers to save and heal lives after the war is one? No. See the nuance?
While Vahlen's focus on research potential may be important for the success of the XCOM project, it is also important to consider the potential risks and ethical implications of her actions. The Commander and Council have a responsibility to weigh the pros and cons of her research and ensure that adequate safety measures are in place. However, it is important to note that in the dire situation presented in the game, where humanity is already on the brink of extinction, the risk of taking drastic measures to try and save the human race may be worth it. However, it is important that Vahlen's actions are not taken without consent, and that the potential consequences are fully considered and discussed. Ultimately, the responsibility falls on the commanders to make the final decision, but Vahlen's research does play a crucial role in the XCOM project.
Xcom 2 does not have an alternate timeline; it is the actual continuation of the first game. In Xcom 1 you never really won, they make that clear in the second one. In the first game, during the Exalt assault on your base, you were captured, and the rest of the first game, including the ending, are actually "simulations" that the aliens themselves made you live.
The most inhuman thing you can do to your soldiers in XCOM 1 is cut off their limbs and turn them into cyborgs. This is idea of Dr. Shen. Compared tho this, Dr. Vahlen's ideas to turn soldiers into stronger versions of themseves is humane and reasonable.
I hate to point this out to you, but every one of the XCOM troopers weren't forced into anything. All of them knew what they were going into. In fact, the psionic trooper thar interacts with the Ethereal device is called "The Volunteer". The seeming lack of "choice" from the soldiers is just a game mechanic. But in lore, I see each and every XCOM troopers as explicitly volunteering for each procedure they undertake (i.e.: MEC trooper, augmentations, becoming psionic, and The Volunteer).
Huh they are volunteers but they don't know what they getting themselves into. What is the long term effect of having your dna changed with meld 😅 Also imagine the world in trouble and the last hope council approach you are and say hey you can handle the psychology of this technology. You are humanity last hope. Kinda hard not to volunteer 😅
cool analysis, but this is very biased, and to be honest I'd like a second heart, or telekinesis. Dr. Vahlen is more morally dubious than you are willing to let on, and it's not the alien tech that is evil, it's the ways that it is used. Ultimately, who has the ability to choose how it is used is the Commander himself, not Dr. Vahlen, so when Bill got the Bioelectric skin upgrade, that was the choice of the Commander, not Dr. Vahlen. In the first game, Dr. Vahlen laid out the options, it was you who used them. That doesn't make the Commander evil though, this is a war against unrelenting aliens; namely the Ethereals; who seek to use humanity for their own gain, as they have used other species (The Mutons, Sectoids, and even Vipers have all been drastically modified from their original forms by varying degrees, the Thin men being so modified they don't even function like they should, instead being effectively human with super muscles and acid spit) Vahlen and the Commander haven't conquered entire alien species and mutilated them, transforming them, their families, their friends, and their friends, friends into tools. The Commander only does that to a few select soldiers, who volunteered to the experiment as well. Dr. Vahlen's carelessness for your own troops grates on me, and her lack of foresight can be dangerous, but that doesn't make her worse than the aliens, or even a bad person. She can recognize when she's gone too far.
We make monsters to break monsters,vahlen in the context of a collapsed world government and failing xcom project did what she had to do. when central got hit,the commander stolen and bradford going to ground i dont think i blame her
When you find modified Exalt troopers She states “but I would never consider these modifications as they would conflict with my own ethics” When I would argue her genetic experiments are worse than some of what exalt is doing Her experiments allow XCOM troops to literally grow a second heart to pump more blood extending the time it takes for them to bleed out Whereas exalt has an increased adrenaline surge when shot Which of these is more invasive
Constant adrenaline surges will probably damage your nervous system since it's really exhausting for your body and especially your brain Second heart,at the other hand,just helps your body with delivering oxygen to everything in it,and overall increases your survivability.That doesn't sound so bad.
ignoring all the nanites and genetic engineering... let's look at the cybernetic soldiers. You can research how to create buffed up versions of your units in power armor. And In order to do so, they need to have cybernetic arms and legs (ie- they unplug the bare bones every day limbs and plug their body directly into the armor). The problem? This game does not have some limb loss mechanic where you get cybernetics to patch them up. ...SO THEY HAVE TO CUT THE LIMBS OFF A NORMAL SOLIDER SO THEY CAN BE CYBORGS. I mean...being a cyborg is cool and all, but this is power using power armor. You couldn't just add literal leg room, or maybe some less intrusive interface? The cybborg limbs are soo weird and bare bones like a car without a chassis too. At least the genetically augmented soldiers seem like they could go to the bar without getting stares. It is all internal and subtle. But nope, you need to lose your hands and robot hands.
My explanation is that, generally, you'd send soldiers who have suffered critical wounds and have permanently reduced will to be MEC soldiers, as MECs are unaffected by a will stat. This could be seen as representative of replacing permanently injured limbs and such that would otherwise hinder the soldier..
That's exactly why I've never used MEC soldiers in EW and only used gene therapy instead. Sure,maybe my gene-altered guys would live 10 years less than normal humans,have some liver/kidney/heart problems or just get ill more often due to reduced immunity/etc. ,but they would at least have a pretty normal human life after the war ends with some useful even in everyday life tweaks like really powerful legs,good vision,clearer mind that isn't altered by drugs and alcohol, and faster body tissue regeneration And the ones without their biological limbs? Doubt they'll live happy normal life.
To be fair, anyone with an ounce of german in them in the scientist/doctor position is liable to be the madman behind so many things Dr. Vahlen, Dr. Edward Richtofen, Doctor Fritz Von Fechenheim, Alfred Drevis - must I continue on? The trope of it is the point.
The irony is, the people who condemn Vahlen's work and her methods would probably be the first to join the Advent. They simply don't understand that they can have these discussions about what is right vs wrong, what is human vs inhuman, just because of people like her.
Personally I find her lack of morals and ability to do what many would refuse to do a very valuable asset, especially as a scientist. It can cause harm but her traits allow us to fully take advantage of the alien tech. Drawing the line on what should and should not be done is the job of the leader, the job of the scientist is to develop technology to improve our capabilities.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 I think the Director of Project Freelancer from RvB said it best: "When faced with extinction, any alternative is preferrable"
If X-com 3 ever happens, I can fully imagine the Elders using a half-brainwashed Dr Vahlen to bounce them back on their feet and become an existential threat even though they're very much defeated at this point...
I sure hope Dr. Vahlen gets a redemption arc in XCOM3. She's my favourite character and I'd love to see her having continued experimenting even after XCOM2 but that these experiments actually created benefits on the scale of the alien rulers.
Interesting video. Dr Vahlen is rather creepy, and does not seem to give sufficient thought to the ramifications of her ideas. She is an asset as long as someone wiser than her is in control of deciding what will be done and what will not.
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they SHOULD." Doctor Ian Malcolm. The advances of science certainly should NOT be stopped completely, but they definitely need to be slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY. Because as it is we're accelerating so fast that our ability to advance apace with it has fallen behind. Technology is a magnificent servant but a horrific master...and we're quickly becoming enslaved by the very tools we're creating.
Never though I was approving the research of, what's basically, the live Dr. "Medic" Ludwig incarnation. Now I know why I was very intrigued by Valhen. She's basically my main in TF2.
Old video but I'm new to the game. On the rulers it seems like the aliens had already been collecting and altering other races of species. What Valen did was to remove genetic blockers that the aliens had placed to limit their growth and development much like the scientists in Jurassic Park tried with making all the dinosaurs female. All of the enemies we face are neutered.
A quote that suits vahlen better than the one u showed at the start is "Those who fight monsters must beware that they not become monsters in turn, For when one looks into the abyss the abyss looks back" Valhen starts as a scientist willing to cross lines But she becomes just like the enthrals/elders at the end
Its pretty boring and tiresome that they turned the German scientist character into a villain. Because every Geman character in media has to be a villain right?
3:04 Actually, it's not understandable at all. Even during an invasion. We don't fully know or understand meld long term or short term effects. Think about this, what if yhe aliens had a weapon, that destroyed meld on a battlefield? She could have easily lost us the war. The only reason we know it's safe, relatively speaking, is because it's a new mechanic for the dlc.
Simple and this is kind of why This dictonomy of Valen and Oppenheimer does not really land fully.... and is with the exact thing that Xcom 2 is not a direct sequel of the first game... Extrapolating to Oppenheimer.... he said a whole lot of those things after the war ended in favor of the americans... but Valen case is as if the war went on and the Axis powers won the war. Also, the desperation of the first game makes them disregard the consequences of their research on everyday because if they fail... the everyday will be screwed anyways... It is a good question of having a future we can at least be in control to be able to fix the mistakes we did vs a future were humanity is extinguished or oppressed by aliens and life either way radically change anyways due to alien presence in everyday life...
While she certainly doesn't seem properly concerned about the ethics of genetically modifying humans, her lines regarding the initial discovery of psionics or her insistence to try and preserve alien artifacts don't seem excessive. Detached from the moment-to-moment tactics of war? Perhaps. Irresponsible? Not yet.
To be fair, blowing up the tech is bad, there's no way to learn how to protect against them if you don't research it. Also, xcom soldiers are alwa6s considered expendable. Sure shes overly enthusiastic but remember, you signed off on it.
Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing to say, and announcing see she is bad for caring about getting the materials to research to prevent mankinds enslavement or destruction Its humanities darkest hour, of course even thousands of peoples deaths getting those fragments early on would be invaluable It's the key factor in better weapons, nano fibers to improve survivability, and improved medkits which can save lifes
this is weirdly individualised. everybody in the project is down for all the human modification stuff and the commander, you, signs off on all of it. she's maybe got the most open scientific curiosity out of anyone but that's probably because she's head of research, it's her job, she's not going around coercion soldiers into getting gene treatments, you're doing that because you want them to win. Shen manages to get volunteers for the quad amputee surgery no problem so anything else should be pretty small beans.
The difference between a good scientist and a great scientist is that a good scientist can develop what they perceive to be plausible, while the great scientist will also perceive the consequence of the development and as such rather not develop the envisioned development.
I always found it odd how she speaks in her tapes in 2.... specifically: how much she seems to be _hissing._ Perhaps she got some Meld and tried to graft some Viper DNA into herself....?
Unfortunately for humanity in the XCOM universe, bio-modded soldiers are way better than Shien's MEC Troopers. I was injecting alien biological matter in everyone.
Her compulsion was always her greatest strength. But really, its also why real scientists have to deal with the ethics council. Also,sorry but those soldiers are very much volunteers.
Morality is subjective. If given the ability to become superhuman why wouldn't i take it. But then again i am the tipe of person that would create a dragon just to say i did.
Dr.Vahlen did what Ian Malcom says in Jurassic Park. She tought what she could, but didnt stop thinking if she should. (+ if I saw an Alien Hunter I cry cause they are an almost misson fail)
I never use gene splicing on my EW runs for a number of reasons, but among the big reasons is my general lack of trust in Vahlen. She is definitely the kind of scientists that always asks herself "can I?" Instead of "should I?" Just look at the Alien Hunters DLC in Xcom 2, the fact she dedicated her time and resources after the war to mess with alien genes and make monsters shows how insane she is deep down.
We do NOT need to modify the homies, sure exploit their technology and learn their tactics but we DONT need super human freaks. Like..if we can use power suits why the hell do I need to be a mutant???
I think it's pretty telling how she never seems to consider the ramifications of giving actual mind control to soldiers - which, among many other problems, very well might result in a rogue soldier doing whatever because he can just take control of any authority he reports to which could have stopped him before being given his abilities.
If vahlen's experiments weren't done then i wouldnt be able to icarus jump my Ranger with Serial into the rear of my enemies and flankshot every last one of them into oblivion. If that's not an option then what's even the point of science?
this is not to say everything else you said is wrong, but the idea that Dr.Vahlen suggesting you try to use less explosives to preserve the alien's technology, is her not seeing the soldiers as people, or that she doesn't case based off this, is wrong. everything else might suggest this, but not this. you need to understand that in this game, humanity is fighting an highly technological advance alien race, that has come out the gate hostile. you need to understand both them, and their technology, to win, and the soldiers are there to do this. there's a quote from a marine whom was in the battle of fallujah, it went something like "if the mission wasn't important, you wouldn't risk your marines." now, regardless to how you feel about the war, this quote shows that being a soldier isn't about self preservation, if it was, you would stay away from any battlefield. However, the Xcom soldiers are being sent to these battlefields to kill these aliens, and to recover their technology. it's them risking their lives to save others. it would be easy to just toss a grenade, and end the battle, but will that grenade cost you the war.
Yeah i remember she was wild, that’s why i didnt use any mutations on my xcom EW playthrough. I didn’t have objections to cutting my soldiers arms and legs though.
Awesome video. I hadn't really stopped to consider that side of the scientific advances made during the game. The scientific change that horrified me was the mech soldier, where you amputate a soldier's limbs in order for him to pilot the mech suit, permanently making him essentially a quadrapalegic. So I usually only upgrade wounded soldiers to mechs and my head-cannon was that their injuries were lost limbs, paralyzed, etc. and so the amputations were just restoring normal functions through new mech limbs.
Yeah that does make sense mechanically. A gravely wounded soldier in-game suffers a permanent maximum will reduction. MEC soldiers are unaffected by a will stat, so will could be representative of not just mental, but some degree of athletic capability, which has now been permanently damaged.
The interesting thing about the psionic soldiers to me is that they are _not_ MELD-infused. In fact, there's a Second Wave challenge that outright forbids bio-mods for your psionic soldiers. This implies that the psionic potential we unlock during the campaign is purely human (and probably the reason why the Ethereals were interested in our species to begin with). It was always within us.
They said as much. Didn't they?
Yeah you are right that's the plot of the story
The Ethereal's body were falling and humans are the best substitutes
And every species we fought were failed attempts
thats what the entire faction of the templars in xcom2 is made of. humans with their own kind of psionic powers
Oh I see, XCOM enemy within
Psionic potential is purely human, it's why the aliens are even on earth, this is stated outright in xcom 2.
The part at 6:40 where you criticize her for saying "Hey, maybe you should try using tactics that don't damage the research material" is like criticizing a engineers who say "Hey, could you try not blowing up the bridge you're liberating? that's gonna make my job hard"
By the end of the alien hunters DLC, I wanted to arrest Dr. Vahlen. Even if you didn't lose anybody to the rulers, the fact that they exist shows a criminal negligence of ethics that led to XCOM facing one of its most dangerous enemies - even the new Chief science officer sounds like he's desperately trying not to say "why does the Berserker Queen exist". Nobody should have to tell her not to do something as dangerous as that, no matter how likely she was to do it - she knows better!
She dug around in creatures made by the enemy, potentially figuring out a way to bypass the Elders' control over the subservient alien species. She could have cut the war shorter. And three got loose. The Chosen and the Avatar are made by the Elders and present far more of a threat. She accepted the risk. Her lab was on a remote island and she did all she could to contain them. Anyone with less precision than her would have caused more damage. She was not negligent, she just failed like anyone else would. And she was likely one of the ones who paid for it first.
Yeah...
On the other hand, those ruler corpses get turned into some sweet gear though!
Nah, those monsters carcasses saved my squad more than once. I would give her a medal.
@@slammydunk9787 Same, these guy allow me to pass mission without fighting at all by fighting for me. Hilarious.
@@misanthropichumanist4782 wotc icarus armor with hunter rifle and death from above
With all due respect, I think you are missing the bigger picture.
The game starts with the quote because of the general theme of the game: Where is the line when it comes to survival?
In that sense, it seems to me that the characters in the game are supposed to be your angel and devil. From things like Shen's pause and uncofortable tone as he has to admit the future mec-soldiers will have to be amputatees and Valhein's insistance on preserving every scrap you come across it makes it feel much more like a choice you willingly have to take and damn the consequences that follow, with Bradford being there to remind you of what's the most important thing (a.k.a. survival). Even in her XCOM 2 mission she says that she FINALLY has the ability to pursue her own research. During Enemy Within, she is under your control. Every single despicable action she does has your signature on it. Genetic alteration, live speciment "interrogations", psionics; it may have been suggested by her, but you, the commander of XCOM project, listened and aproved it. And how could you not? What is one soldier linked to a vast alien pseudo-hive-mind for the rest of their (albeit short) life compared to survival of literal bilions? Do dozens of dead civilians matter if your squad managed to take down the terror-party? Is privacy really that important when tracking a terrorist organisation helping aliens?
The game is questioning you and how far you are ready to go when everything is on the line and all characters are a perfect representation of that, for in the end Oppenheimer may have believed he was Death, but the bomb was dropped with (edit because I'm stupid) Truman's authorisation.
@discipleofkrolm agreed, with the weird exception of "The Volounteer", since them interactibg eith the elder device actually links them to their hivemind.
Also, I got to ask how many times did you managed to kill 3+ civilians in a single move because you used a MEC's emp blaster? I swear those things are more dangerous than granades.
@discipleofkrolm The emp pulse is the tier-3 suit ability in vanilla game. Can't really blame you f9r not knowing that, it takes around 205 meld to get there.
I highly recommend using them though. If you can get tier 1 suit around the second month the game becomes much easier. Also, without the foundry upgrade to their movement, they're almost tied for movement with Assault, so they mesh with snipers really well.
Last playthrough I did I managed to get 3 tier-3 MECs (colonel rank) before doing the final mission and I can tell you the two sectopods didn't make a detnt and all three survived two seperate psi-storms f4om the etherials. I'd still suggest pairing them up with a heavy with a shredder rocket.
@Morgan Allen I think the quote is more of a reference to the theme of us becoming like the aliens. Cold-hearted tyrants. But we learn upon hearing the Ethereals' plans that this won't happen. The Ethereals are driven by desperation to rapidly subjugate and experiment on other races due to their inherent muscular atrophy. Humans don't suffer that weakness. So, in the end, we can breath a sigh of relief knowing that as long as we will never be driven to the same lengths as the Ethereals were when they made the terrible things in the first place. We were never playing with the Devil's toys. All the Ethereals gave us was the knowledge of how much our own species could achieve. Something they envied us for.
The gene therapy, MEC modifications, and psionics aren't even that bad. Using MELD saved countless lives that could have died to tissue rejection or metallic reaction. It's well-known that the psionic abilities were always latent within mankind. Again, we probably just discovered it in a safer way than we would have without the Ethereals' intervention.
@@bigmonkey1254 I'm pretty sure we suffer from the same condition as the Etherials.
It's called "getting old and die".
The Etherials were seeking eternal life, but all they managed to do was postpone their death.
When they invased Earth, they were getting desperate as their science couldn't prolong their life for much longer.
We, humans, have been seeking a way to achieve immortality as well, modern medicine doubled our average life expectancy.
And we may very well follow the steps of the Elders in our pursuit for longevity.
I think the crux of the question is how far are we willing to go to achieve our goals, and what those goals are.
5:50 You are misrepresenting what she said. She is not gushing over the possibility of real mind control, she is showing fear at how this power invalidates all of the progress XCOM has made. She is not showing a lack of humanity here, but quite the opposite. She is showing that she still identifies with the XCOM project and therefore humanity, and sees the bigger picture of what mind control means for the war.
yeah, I always read that as despair at the power of psionics instead of what this udue saw. to me its clear he got some early beef with vahlen and just read the wors in her at every possibility.
Although Vahlen is certainly the most eccentric member of staff, she's really not as bad as claimed here. When she sees EXALT soldiers, she expresses her reservations about how far she would allow genetic modifications to go. When she performs experiments, it is done with the help of volunteers. You said they were "forced against their will". This is plainly false. Both she and Shen refer to the soldiers who undergo modification as "volunteer". Also, the soldier who connects to the alien hive mind is referred to by the game text as the Volunteer. Since you select these soldiers for the procedures, that means that *every* soldier on the base volunteered. The MELD that she is using makes the experiments far safer than they would be as she quickly determined that the substance was used to prevent foreign material rejection in the aliens, meaning she was not reckless at all. If anything, given that Vahlen's field of research prepared her mind for exposure to the knowledge of alien species, she behaves in the most responsible manner of any scientist who could be assigned this task. And she's not ignoring the militarization of these technologies. That interpretation of her being too optimistic seems way off to me. She's using these advancements for weapons *now*. She's looking forward to when they won't be needed as weapons anymore. How does that make her unethical at all? She's looking for hope for humanity in a dark time. Her comment on the sectoid commander's psionic ability isn't callous either. She sounds shocked. She sees the implication and horror of this power. Just because she isn't devastated doesn't mean she's uncaring about the soldier. I'd rather have a team who doesn't break into tears at every offense the aliens commit. It shows commitment to protecting humanity as a whole.
As for XCOM 2's events, she was working on a project that could have cut the war short. Failsaves were put in place and the experiments were performed in a remote location to slow the advance of the escapees. But they got out anyway. In the end, she was the first to pay for a failure which was out of her control. A failure which she knew to admit to. She's a bit eccentric and comes across as somewhat fanatical, but really she does what she can to control a nearly uncontrollable situation and does what is most likely the right thing for humanity. Don't forget, it was Vahlen who warned Bradford that a greater threat was likely imminent after the destruction of the hidden alien base and who wanted to deliver her private findings to you, the Commander.
You're also demonizing psionics a lot. Mind control is a possibility. But so are many other helpful applications. As is said repeatedly, the psionic abilities are a natural property of humanity. If anything, uses alien techniques to unlock it is more ethical than the painful trial and error we would have used on our own. Vahlen is doing the right thing in using the gifts and opportunity she has to give humanity abilities which can change many things for the better. Yes, they can be used for evil. But such is true for anything us humans obtain. She is sharing her findings with those who will likely use it for humanity's better.
Also, the comparison between her and Oppenheimer is not entirely fair. Oppenheimer was working on a weapon based on a pre-established field of science with the intent of destroying human life. Vahlen was analyzing alien artifacts for use in war, which she hoped could be developed into a peaceful field after the war. The nuclear reactor had existed before Oppenheimer worked on the bomb. But Vahlen had seen aliens until the moment people were forced to fight them. She is making the best of a bad situation, not minimizing the risk that her findings could be twisted.
Sorry, but I'm getting a strong impression that you're conflating level-headed analysis of a stressful situation with callous, selfish curiosity. As you said yourself, Vahlen expresses genuine concern. Yet, you seem more interested in overshadowing that with statements that *could* denotatively represent careless curiosity. It's especially unconvincing when her tone during these allegedly cold-hearted comments sounds more apprehensive and cautious than fanatical. I was excited at first to see an analysis on Dr. Moira Vahlen. She's my favorite character in the game. But this is just taking every good thing she does and immediately assuming she's careless and crazy for doing what any decent person in her position would if they could even though she has clearly shown restraint and a firm sense of humane ethics.
So i didnt read your entire comment bc holy shit but the dr's comments on exalt is very funny considering that the mutations You can get are way more extreme than anything exalt hss
So basically, the problem lies in between the connection of the story telling and the gameplay.
There is a disconnect because the player 'picks' the characters that are being treated for psionic or MELD treatments. The characters, by admission of the story, volunteered for this.
So basically you can either picture it as - everyone has already signed off on this and is willing for you to pick whoever and put them into the super soldier program -
OR - the guy or gal you picked specifically requested it and that is why 'you picked them'.
it's mental gymnastics, but that is kinda where that disconnect lies. It makes sense, but it also - doesn't.
This! This corrects everything this video repeatedly gets wrong! It also doesn't help that Dr. Vallah is the best in her field because she knows where to push in her research. In a structured society it's hard to fight for a single individual when all of society is in danger.
@@majorplothole2620 the game doesn't specify this but XCOM soldiers are selected from armies around the world who are ranked above average in skills and they volunteered to serve earth on a global level instead of a national scale. It's definitely not known if they signed up for MELD or PSI training but the game gives the feel that the soldiers aren't backing down from the opportunity. I personally wouldn't want to be part of Shen's MEC project but then again... I'm not XCOM material...
"The nuclear reactor had existed before Oppenheimer worked on the bomb." I guess? Since you need one to enrich the uranium. That said, I don't think anyone made electricity with a reactor until the soviets came along... and that was after the bomb.
There's a bigger problem that you are ignoring: YOU.
She can only do any of these things cause YOU approved them. You are the Commander, the one with the final say. Just as Shen can't do anything without your approval, neither can Vahlen.
This was a war for the survival of the species. If we worried about ethics and whatever while in a seriously desperate limited time for our species survival, we would all die. XCOM needed someone who COULD get things done. But they also needed a Leader, someone who could not be told no or ignored: YOU. The Commander.
Paint her as evil all you like. But at the end of the day, YOU APPROVED ALL OF IT! She can't do anything without your say so.
And if she were to be tried for war crimes, you would join her, cause every "evil experiment" has your signature of approval on them.
same can say Ethereals to you. They approve own action, because it their survival.
Better win, then. Germans and Japanese were tried for the war crimes, not the Allies.
I never gave any orders
True but xcom lore says mid way through xcom 1 you lose the base defense and she goes off and does her own research. She choice to make those alien leaders
@@joeykonyha2414as the aliens do. That's probably some form of superiority or making an example. Also a lot of Scientists specifically were allowed to escape in exchange for research
Counterpoint to your objections that Vahlen only cares about the possible research:
Yes, but that's what you want. That is why she isn't in charge of the operations. Her entire focus is on the research potential. That is her job. It is your job as the commander of the operation to weigh the pros and cons, as well as the risks. Now, of course, to properly do THAT job, she must adequately inform you of those risks. If you can point to an instance where Vahlen knew of a risk and failed to inform the Commander/Council of it, then the criticism would be far more fair. As it is, the majority of your criticisms seem to boil down to her doing her job rather than yours, or failing to let her emotions lead her.
Now, you make many good points. Science without ethics or moral guidance are more of a threat than a boon. This is true. This is why a technocracy, or a society governed by educated elites, is HIGHLY undesirable. There is no inherent moral necessity to science. Thus, so long as the temptation of progress is great enough, any risk can be taken. Maybe they convince themselves that adequate safeties are in place. Maybe the 'greater good' means that the ends justify the means. Given enough time and power, this is the road that 'progress' always leads us down. You are right to be cautious of Vahlen going to that conclusion, too.
But that is why she is not in overall control of the XCOM Project. Her biases and agendas are meant to be checked by you and the Council. And they are. It is true that all of the research she conducts will undoubtedly lead to repercussions for human society at some distant point, but again, counterpoint:
If you are unlikely to see tomorrow, then you cannot afford to worry about next week. That is a basic fundamental reality of this cost/benefit analysis. And while the end results may not be optimal, they might be your only true option. There are many situations in which you can only hope that whatever problems you create with something new, can also be solved with that same new thing. Sometimes they cannot. But eventually, we do have a tendency to figure our problems out through a process of discovery. In any other scenario, your concerns would be more than fair, and Vahlen should be stripped of her role. But in a situation where your soldiers are all going to die if they do not win, the ethics of changing their anatomy seem trivial. I would also note that at no point does the game imply that any soldiers are experimented on without their consent. The experiments are not ethical, true, but I do not think we can claim they are forced. The restraints you see are probably used to control seizures (we're messing with their brains after all) or to keep them from hurting people if they lose control.
The dilemma is this: You either get to see and (hopefully) solve a new problem tomorrow, or you do not see tomorrow at all. Which would you prefer? Either way, the responsibility is the Commander's, not Vahlen's. She is not in charge. Everything that happens in XCOM 2 happens when humanity is basically already doomed if not for the incredible fluke of the Commander's recovery. It is difficult to blame Vahlen for taking incredible risks to try and salvage a seemingly already hopeless situation. Again, it is about risk/reward. The risk is that an already (apparently) doomed species has an additional problem or two. The reward is that they might not be doomed anymore. It is completely clear that the risks did not work out, because you can win the game without ever taking them. But you have the benefit of knowing that whereas Vahlen does not. Is it fair to condemn her for this?
And so my conclusion:
It is not clear that Vahlen will doom mankind at all. It seems far more clear that without her assistance, mankind is already doomed. The worst of her failures that we are shown occur when there appears to be no hope for a future anyway, making any risk negligible. She isn't dooming humanity, the aliens are. Her escaped specimens won't destroy humanity before Avatar. Her psychic exeriments won't destroy humanity unless the aliens are driven back, giving humanity enough time to either destroy itself or solve the psychic problem as well in due time. We have no way of knowing which will happen. The new advances are resolved and adapted to, or used to destroy us after the aliens are gone. Both are possible, but only if the aliens are defeated first. Almost everything she does can be justified, even if we find it distasteful.
@Morgan Allen the issue with a technocracy is that there's no required deference to ethics or morals. This is the same reason we don't have the military answering to civilian authorities. It jeeps them accountable. I recommend the Spaceship Troopers novels (not movies) to see how such a society can quickly go downhill.
@Morgan Allen Because this particular group of ruling elite can appeal to reason and knowledge as the basis of their authority. It's incredibly dangerous for people who Know Best™ to be answerable only to themselves. While this is hardly unique to a technocracy, the level of horror that can be unleashed by this particular form of goverment is not easily matched. If you want to see the level of depravity we can reach when chasing 'progress' has no moral checks, look at Unit 731 or Joseph Mengele. Now imagine that these weren't just small groups or individuals doing these things, but an entire beurocracy dedicated to such atrocities. Again, all forms of government are prone to abuse, because power is almost never wielded for purely noble pursuits. But the sheer power of science makes it all the more dangerous if it gets out of control (and it will).
@@enderoctanus There is no inherent risk to technocracy that is not extant in any other system of government. If a republic thinks that sacrificing a million lives will save 5 billion, they likely will do so. Many scientists perform their research hoping to better peoples' lives in real, tangible ways. Saving loved ones from terminal illness, establishing unbiased court of law, even automatous armies so that humans don't have to be slaughtered in pointless wars. Science is the observation of the natural world. Technology is the application of that observation to manipulate the natural world. Neither of those are inherently evil or even cold-hearted. You watch plants grow in the rain so you water them so they can grow any time. After watching a bunch of people making ridiculous claims when they don't know the first thing about a global pandemic and knowing that those same people vote on who runs a country, I'd rather put my country's future in the hands of someone who can at least do what they say they can.
@Morgan Allen Yeah, Shen and Vahlen both refer to the soldiers undergoing modification as "volunteers". And Vahlen does express her personal restraint when she sees EXALT soldiers. She sounds a little off-put by them.
I feel like all the soldiers you even have the option of recruiting are happy to volunteer for anything required to defeat the aliens. I think it's more of an assumption than a lack of game mechanic. They probably selected the most selfless soldiers they could because that is absolutely what is required to defeat the aliens. I've always had a bit of a headcanon for X:EU and the orginal Xcom/Xenonauts that some of the soldiers can't even speak to eachother on account of lingual barriers, but they know the routine so well that they can simply do it, but that's simply my interpretation and the game shoes no actual evidence to it beyond being able to select different languages for different soldiers.
Regaurdleass, I've found that any game that has a community of people discussing theories and interpretations of it is a sign that it's a damn good game. I really like how Xcom manages to make even thier randomly generated characters still have forms of, well, character.
Ok but the evil scientist angle just makes her even hotter
abso-fucking-lutely true, i see how there are so many volunteers to her experiments.
@@enderofbarts ayo-
Hey man if I can have 3 hearts and jump to scale a three story building and blend in with my surroundings like a chameleon then sign me up
I think Vahlen isn't a monster, she does have ambition, but it's always the Commander she defers to, and the game's theme is more about asking. "How far as you willing to go to save humanity?" It's a similar question about ethics as the series 24 asks throughout the many seasons.
I also would like to bring in quotes from Deus Ex, which deals with these same themes in the form of cybernetics:
""How often have we changed the dream of progress, only to see that dream perverted? More often than not, haven't the machines we built to improve life shattered the lives of millions?"
- Adam Jensen.
"Technology offers us strength. Strength enables dominance, and dominance paves the way for abuse."
- Adam Jensen.
"Sarif was right about one thing, it's in our nature to want to rise above our limits. Think about it. We were cold, so we harnessed fire. We were weak, so we invented tools. Every time we met an obstacle, we used creativity and ingenuity to overcome it."
- Adam Jensen
"Freedom. To those that don't have it, it's more valuable than gold. But where should it start and end? We humans often think we have the right to expand, absorb, convert, or possess anything we need to reach our dreams. But time and time again, hasn't this lead to conflicts with others who essentially believe the same thing?" - Adam Jensen.
These are four very different questions that ask the same thing.
When you really come down to it, she's just doing her job.
Her job is to understand the aliens and adapt their technology to suit humanity. Whether that be researching better armour, better weapons, augmenting humans or creating, well trying to create, subservient aliens with the alien rulers, it's all for the sake of humanity, no matter how morally grey.
And anyway, apart from the alien rulers, it was the Commander who was signing off on what she needs to research, turning that research into something useful and, if needed, picking volunteers for her experiments. It's like blaming a soldier fighting in a war, it's not their fault they follow orders.
I would rather say Dr. Vahlen is a brilliant scientist and really wants to do good things but loses her ethic in the progress and she needs to be restricted in order to do so or she makes really bad things by accident. But does this make her a bad person?
Good intentions pave the way to damnation
Except that she does show restraint. She sounds off-put when she sees EXALT soldiers for the first time.
@@bigmonkey1254 we barely can call that show,she is showing restraint but she did not restraint herself
6 of my best soldier goddamn die to three of these mutant alien
This feels like throwing an accomplice under the bus to use her as a scapegoat for the crimes I, the commander, went and said "damn that's pretty cool. Do it." We stamped the papers, we, the player, did it. And let's be honest were dealing with an alien invasion, the least of our concerns is "ethics".
Yeah but without us she still wildin
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 true that
Yeah but you lose the base defense and get taken. While gone she creates the leaders for some reason 😅
@@djcustoms6637 pretty sure she creates the rulers as a sort of final attempt by her to create *something* able to fight back against the aliens, she just had the misfortune of them escaping and most likely killing her before they could be made to obey her/resistance fighters
There is this theory that Enemy Within is actually not real, that it is the Commander being taken by the Elders and the MELD and the results of using it are just a re-interpretation for the Commander so he doesn't realize he is commanding aliens _against_ XCOM. That the title refers to you, the player, being the Enemy Within humanity - of XCOM due to being captured. If that theory is true, then Valen never did use MELD on humans, nor cut up healthy humans to turn them into mechanized troops. If the theory is correct then those are likely Archons and Sectopods/Mechs the aliens use made to look like humans for the Commander.
Shen is the one responsible for making MEC soldiers, just so you know. That's the character-conflict of Meld: have Vahlen use it for genetic alteration, or have Shen use it for cybernetic enhancements.
That Theory falls apart rather quickly as Bredford knows the Commander, served under him, and sacrifices the lifes of his soldiers to rescue the Commander to make him, Leader of XCom again, even Vahlen mentions, she wishes the Commander was still there, so Enemy Within was certainly real and happening, to the point, and this is a guess, when XCom Base was assaulted.
Vahlen and Shen's varying foresight can also be seen in how their different Meld projects could go back to regular life afterwards. Vahlen's are all permanent, and they will never not be able to have these superhuman abilities and the potential PTSD not only of being in a war but being an experiment. Shen, however, makes an attempt to give the altered MEC soldiers some normality. Their combat look is explicitly a suit that plugs into where their limbs were, and when not in it they are given prosthetics that function just like the limbs they lost. In XCOM 2's DLC, his next attempt at advanced weaponry creation removed the human element entirely and worked with improving the unmaned robots he created in XCOM 1 into the walking drone tanks we see replacing the MECs in Shen's Last Gift.
I would argue that the MEC soldiers are very much permanently affected in the same way Meld-treated soldiers are even if the modification is of a different nature, however complex the prosthetic gadgets they're provided might be the process still renders them quadruple amputees and it will likely still have long-term effects on the soldier's psyche and social life even when reintegrating into civilian life. The field of treatments and prostheses for amputees might be massively boosted by the implementation of alien technology but I'd wager people would still treat these amputees differently whether consciously or subconsciously. I would hope the civilian prostheses they're provided with also simulate the senses and degrees of mobility the limbs once had, that would be life-changing for amputees.
No, the fact that the genetic alterations can be completely switched indicates that they're not permanent. Furthermore, XCOM soldiers will likely go on to use their augmentations for other careers after the war ends.
In complete respect this feels like heavy confirmation bias.
To address a few points
Yes Shen does express more reservations, but presenting him as being more morally good for doing so while vahlen is morally worse for not seems, disengenious. Gene-modded soldiers have an extra heart, bone marrow that can repair itself faster, and at the most extreme the ability to camoflauge their own skin or even project electricity from it. They're humans, plus some improvements. Mecs however are literally nothing but a human head and maybe a human torso. Shen is literally taking off their limbs in the entirety, whereas Vahlen seeks to improve them. I don't think either are completely morally pure or damned, but you are intentionally trying to paint gene modding as far worse than it is. Vahlen even expressly comments on how their gene research has been subdued to avoid going too far when you first encounter gene-modded exalt units, further reinforcing that she very clearly expresses restraint in these areas.
If we are going to demonize Vahlen for alien rulers breaking containment and her failsafes not working as planned, surely we ought to also demonize Shen for his research going directly into bolstering Advent's front lines with mechanized combat units, correct? Mass producible walking tanks, sectopod prototypes, and the countless other technologies Advent canonically pulled from his research. By contrast, the rulers are an inconvenience at best. Shen's tech directly contributed to Advent's genocide and planetary conquering, Vahlen tried to remove genetic blockers the aliens put on their subordinates to make them more subservient and they accidentally got loose leaving a few rulers to go about causing issues for XCOM.
As for psionics, once again you're painting it as far worse than it is. Vahlen isn't pushing people beyond the point of recognition - science taken to far - she's doing the exact opposite; her entire monologue at the start is talking about how we ought to look into humanity and find true power from within ourselves, rather than from outside modifications. You keep holding onto mind control as a point against psionics but one specific application of a tool doesn't define it. I can bash someone's head in with a hammer, that doesn't mean hammers are horrible. Her comment regarding an alien mind controlling a unit is frankly what every normal person would see in that situation, you have just seen something that shouldn't even be possible, be done. All of the work you've done to protect humanity, fundamentally undermined by an entirely new concept that we had thought impossible for centuries. When you are presented with a development that would fundamentally recontextualize the fight for your entire species' survival, I don't think worrying about the specific soldier who got mind controlled is necessarily what you should be focusing on. She is addressing the wider implications of what psionic powers would mean for humanity's fight for survival over the well being of the
Yes, I agree with this. Especially considering both Vahlen and Shen refer to the soldiers undergoing respective treatments as "volunteers". Since you chose who get the modifications, that would imply that *every soldier in the base volunteered*.
@@bigmonkey1254 exactly. It's just the game obviously doesn't show this very well. Because it has no need to
You should see the Xenonauts approach to this fun idea
isnt that the game where you can mass produce alien weapons to both sides of the cold war?
@@gabrielandradeferraz386 Pretty much, but it's more a joke at how you'd sell lasers for a profit in the original XCOM. You can sell them for half the production cost, and then the researchers arrest a Soviet spy that's been selling your research to the Russians, who claim to have invented it. Sounds like something they'd do.
Naturally the response might be to let them then get overrun by body snatchers and terminators...drop a base on the remains called Kiev 2, and call it a day.
But yeah, ultimately this means all the civvies and soldiers running around get laser guns, and so do you, if you happen to sit around and pick them up after they get accidentally eaten because there's no way you could have gotten there in time.
The X-Division mod takes it a step further, and changes it to say you're sharing your tech, but your funding is basically unlimited when you do. The result is seeing farmer joe come out of his house with an automatic gauss shotgun, and that's hilarious.
@@gabrielandradeferraz386Yeah but the Cold War isn’t really a thing anymore on account of the alien invasion
I like how Shen is preoccupied with the soldiers, however, depending on your research timing, is very funny to see Shen going from "I am scared to become loss our humanity by trying to make ourselves more than human" to "here's robocops, start putting soldiers in my robocop suits, I am very eager to do so, and we all know robocops are very ethical" to "oh man... it's sad to see these soldiers make a no-way-back investment"
I'd give her funding and all the criminals and prisoners she could ever hope for, either crime drops or crime slowly gets eradicated, AND we get our own flesh abomination to love and hold.
When facing enslavement and extinction there are no rules but survive, vahlen is perfectly suited to her role and world.
I would give her funding even without any danger.
My friends and I ultimately don't agree with a lot of your arguments here, but we IMMENSELY love and appreciate an XCOM lore video! 😄
7:22 Love that you hear the Base A.I say "Commander to the research labs, Commander to the Research Labs." As if the base is saying ' VAHLEN'S DOING CREEPY STUFF AGAIN!"
Soldiers:* got back from a mission using a single grenade to finish off two sectoids *
Dr vahlen:"OMG ARE U GUYS SERIOUSLY USING EXPLOSIVES AGAINST THEM ???? I TOLD YOU I NEEDED ALL THE FRAGMENTS OF THAT SECTOID PLASMA PISTOL YOU IDIOTS YOU WOULD RATHER USE EXPLOSIVES THAN PUT YOUR LIVESIN DANGER"
Meanwhile at the workshop
Soldiers: *brings a mangled carcace of a cyberdisk*
Dr. Shen: "you boys are the best, I'll get you plasma weapons 75% off"
Except...
your reading things way to humanely
Vahlem is a scientiest, chosen for XCOM, one of the very VERY VERY FEW that have the ability to actually help and stop this war before it escalates. Why would Vahlem care about things like a soldiers wellbeing when the world is at stake? Like dont get me wrong its important, but you could be forgiven that Vahlem is a scientist first and a human second. Despite this she is nowhere near as dangerous as Tygen can be during the second game. If anything she is extremely cautious.
During Alien Hunters, its made clear that Vahlem like 99.9% of every other person does not know Advent were once humans. To her they could just simply be a new race entirely. Not to mention that Vahlem was more than likely not WILLING WORKING FOR ADVENT, and the Alien Rulers were freed by Vahlem herself (yes I know the mission says Gamma "ESCAPED" but then the logs go on to mess that up by saying that Vahlem lied and freed Gamma herself according to Advent reports). The Snake King was engineered specifically to be INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS to Advent, and it was only the chips Advent had them implanted with that kept them from being hell on earth for Advent. Let alone the fact that The Berserker Queen was a weapon plain and simple to destroy as much as Advents forces as possible.
Humanity had lost the first war. Vahlem tried her hardest to push the boundaries to make sure they didnt the first time, then she decided to fully commit to turning everything against Advent, even their own troops. This was a war for EXTINCTION, keep in mind that humanity had no idea the Elders planned on keeping Humanity alive in some way. Human lives cannot be weighed fairly against the entire species. Psionics where always something Humans had deep inside their capabilities, Vahlem just awakened it using some experiments. Just because something isnt moral doesnt mean its not right.
Sorry to not consider what the soldiers would want after preventing the extinction of their entire race, its not as if the entire fate of humanity rests on Vahlem's shoulders. No one can know what will happen in 50 years. Especially if Humanity fucking dies in 25 due to concerns about Ethics and Restraint during a Genocide (Yes I know I misspelled her name wrong this entire time, I'm not going back to fix every single time her name is said...)
Yea, nah. You're digging a bit to much. Yea she makes ethically dubious decisions, literally every member of the cast is morally grey. Dr. Shen literally makes amputees of the soldiers to turn them into super mech warriors.
The problem this video, and your whole perspective has, is that you shift the blame or the source of the evil to a 'something'. Only people can be/do evil, so psyonics or cybernetics or whatever can't be considered inherently a source of evil. What is vital to recognize is what they are used for.
It is wise to question the motive behind any scientific advancement. "We can do x now, great, should we?" The ability to do something like genetic splicing is not evil. Making blind haired blue eyed test tube babies? Well, that very well could be. Evil is always a voluntary corruption or twisting of something else. There is nothing evil in a gun, in a gun factory, or even in a nuclear bomb. The evil, is when it is used by a human.
Back to XCOM and psyonics. Is it evil for a soldier to be forced to undergo this operation against their will? Yes. Is it evil for them to volunteer in order to defend humanity better from clearly evil alien invaders? No. Would it be evil for him to abuse his power for authority/wealth/fame after the war is one? Yes. Is it evil for him to use his powers to save and heal lives after the war is one? No.
See the nuance?
While Vahlen's focus on research potential may be important for the success of the XCOM project, it is also important to consider the potential risks and ethical implications of her actions. The Commander and Council have a responsibility to weigh the pros and cons of her research and ensure that adequate safety measures are in place. However, it is important to note that in the dire situation presented in the game, where humanity is already on the brink of extinction, the risk of taking drastic measures to try and save the human race may be worth it. However, it is important that Vahlen's actions are not taken without consent, and that the potential consequences are fully considered and discussed. Ultimately, the responsibility falls on the commanders to make the final decision, but Vahlen's research does play a crucial role in the XCOM project.
Dr. Vahlen is mommy scientist.
...she's in the deep...she's the new avatar...
Xcom 2 does not have an alternate timeline; it is the actual continuation of the first game. In Xcom 1 you never really won, they make that clear in the second one. In the first game, during the Exalt assault on your base, you were captured, and the rest of the first game, including the ending, are actually "simulations" that the aliens themselves made you live.
The most inhuman thing you can do to your soldiers in XCOM 1 is cut off their limbs and turn them into cyborgs. This is idea of Dr. Shen. Compared tho this, Dr. Vahlen's ideas to turn soldiers into stronger versions of themseves is humane and reasonable.
How is inhumane?
That’s like saying a warhammer space marine is humane and reasonable lol
I hate to point this out to you, but every one of the XCOM troopers weren't forced into anything. All of them knew what they were going into. In fact, the psionic trooper thar interacts with the Ethereal device is called "The Volunteer". The seeming lack of "choice" from the soldiers is just a game mechanic. But in lore, I see each and every XCOM troopers as explicitly volunteering for each procedure they undertake (i.e.: MEC trooper, augmentations, becoming psionic, and The Volunteer).
Huh they are volunteers but they don't know what they getting themselves into.
What is the long term effect of having your dna changed with meld 😅
Also imagine the world in trouble and the last hope council approach you are and say hey you can handle the psychology of this technology. You are humanity last hope. Kinda hard not to volunteer 😅
More of an ultimatum than a real choice.
MLK Jr., if I remember rightly, said 'Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.'
Dr. Vahlen is awesome. Got it
cool analysis, but this is very biased, and to be honest I'd like a second heart, or telekinesis. Dr. Vahlen is more morally dubious than you are willing to let on, and it's not the alien tech that is evil, it's the ways that it is used. Ultimately, who has the ability to choose how it is used is the Commander himself, not Dr. Vahlen, so when Bill got the Bioelectric skin upgrade, that was the choice of the Commander, not Dr. Vahlen. In the first game, Dr. Vahlen laid out the options, it was you who used them.
That doesn't make the Commander evil though, this is a war against unrelenting aliens; namely the Ethereals; who seek to use humanity for their own gain, as they have used other species (The Mutons, Sectoids, and even Vipers have all been drastically modified from their original forms by varying degrees, the Thin men being so modified they don't even function like they should, instead being effectively human with super muscles and acid spit) Vahlen and the Commander haven't conquered entire alien species and mutilated them, transforming them, their families, their friends, and their friends, friends into tools. The Commander only does that to a few select soldiers, who volunteered to the experiment as well.
Dr. Vahlen's carelessness for your own troops grates on me, and her lack of foresight can be dangerous, but that doesn't make her worse than the aliens, or even a bad person. She can recognize when she's gone too far.
We make monsters to break monsters,vahlen in the context of a collapsed world government and failing xcom project did what she had to do. when central got hit,the commander stolen and bradford going to ground i dont think i blame her
When you find modified Exalt troopers
She states “but I would never consider these modifications as they would conflict with my own ethics”
When I would argue her genetic experiments are worse than some of what exalt is doing
Her experiments allow XCOM troops to literally grow a second heart to pump more blood extending the time it takes for them to bleed out
Whereas exalt has an increased adrenaline surge when shot
Which of these is more invasive
Constant adrenaline surges will probably damage your nervous system since it's really exhausting for your body and especially your brain
Second heart,at the other hand,just helps your body with delivering oxygen to everything in it,and overall increases your survivability.That doesn't sound so bad.
ignoring all the nanites and genetic engineering... let's look at the cybernetic soldiers. You can research how to create buffed up versions of your units in power armor. And In order to do so, they need to have cybernetic arms and legs (ie- they unplug the bare bones every day limbs and plug their body directly into the armor). The problem? This game does not have some limb loss mechanic where you get cybernetics to patch them up. ...SO THEY HAVE TO CUT THE LIMBS OFF A NORMAL SOLIDER SO THEY CAN BE CYBORGS.
I mean...being a cyborg is cool and all, but this is power using power armor. You couldn't just add literal leg room, or maybe some less intrusive interface? The cybborg limbs are soo weird and bare bones like a car without a chassis too.
At least the genetically augmented soldiers seem like they could go to the bar without getting stares. It is all internal and subtle. But nope, you need to lose your hands and robot hands.
My explanation is that, generally, you'd send soldiers who have suffered critical wounds and have permanently reduced will to be MEC soldiers, as MECs are unaffected by a will stat. This could be seen as representative of replacing permanently injured limbs and such that would otherwise hinder the soldier..
That's exactly why I've never used MEC soldiers in EW and only used gene therapy instead.
Sure,maybe my gene-altered guys would live 10 years less than normal humans,have some liver/kidney/heart problems or just get ill more often due to reduced immunity/etc. ,but they would at least have a pretty normal human life after the war ends with some useful even in everyday life tweaks like really powerful legs,good vision,clearer mind that isn't altered by drugs and alcohol, and faster body tissue regeneration
And the ones without their biological limbs?
Doubt they'll live happy normal life.
To be fair, anyone with an ounce of german in them in the scientist/doctor position is liable to be the madman behind so many things
Dr. Vahlen, Dr. Edward Richtofen, Doctor Fritz Von Fechenheim, Alfred Drevis - must I continue on? The trope of it is the point.
"Gloomy teutonic genius" is one of the better tropes out there
It is based on logic and rationality it cares not for anything else that is science and reasearch mimicking the reality that we live in
The irony is, the people who condemn Vahlen's work and her methods would probably be the first to join the Advent. They simply don't understand that they can have these discussions about what is right vs wrong, what is human vs inhuman, just because of people like her.
Personally I find her lack of morals and ability to do what many would refuse to do a very valuable asset, especially as a scientist. It can cause harm but her traits allow us to fully take advantage of the alien tech. Drawing the line on what should and should not be done is the job of the leader, the job of the scientist is to develop technology to improve our capabilities.
Literally the mindset of not see scientists lol
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 I think the Director of Project Freelancer from RvB said it best:
"When faced with extinction, any alternative is preferrable"
We already solved the problem of Poverty, only we don’t get on with it. - Alan Watts
If X-com 3 ever happens, I can fully imagine the Elders using a half-brainwashed Dr Vahlen to bounce them back on their feet and become an existential threat even though they're very much defeated at this point...
Oh, you gave Central the Axe for the Nest mission. I hope you don't mind not seeing that axe again, cause Central's inventory is a bit bugged.
Bradford keeps it in his room
I sure hope Dr. Vahlen gets a redemption arc in XCOM3. She's my favourite character and I'd love to see her having continued experimenting even after XCOM2 but that these experiments actually created benefits on the scale of the alien rulers.
Interesting video. Dr Vahlen is rather creepy, and does not seem to give sufficient thought to the ramifications of her ideas. She is an asset as long as someone wiser than her is in control of deciding what will be done and what will not.
I have never seen my favourite game (XCOM) and also hearing a soundtrack from my other favourite game (into the breach) in one video :D
do you mean your first "psionic enemy which is ACTUALLY A THREAT" because regular sectoids are psionic as well
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they SHOULD." Doctor Ian Malcolm.
The advances of science certainly should NOT be stopped completely, but they definitely need to be slowed down SIGNIFICANTLY. Because as it is we're accelerating so fast that our ability to advance apace with it has fallen behind. Technology is a magnificent servant but a horrific master...and we're quickly becoming enslaved by the very tools we're creating.
Never though I was approving the research of, what's basically, the live Dr. "Medic" Ludwig incarnation. Now I know why I was very intrigued by Valhen. She's basically my main in TF2.
Good job man nice video! 😁 Very interesting
"Do you really think this is worth the risk?!"
Old video but I'm new to the game.
On the rulers it seems like the aliens had already been collecting and altering other races of species.
What Valen did was to remove genetic blockers that the aliens had placed to limit their growth and development much like the scientists in Jurassic Park tried with making all the dinosaurs female.
All of the enemies we face are neutered.
A quote that suits vahlen better than the one u showed at the start is
"Those who fight monsters must beware that they not become monsters in turn,
For when one looks into the abyss the abyss looks back"
Valhen starts as a scientist willing to cross lines
But she becomes just like the enthrals/elders at the end
Is Dr Vahlen still alive by end of xcom 2 events? I am still hoping for xcom 3 / 4 (not sure if chimera squad counts as 3)
Nope the king kobra killed her before she had a chance.
"except that her research might just kill us all"
ah yes XCOM2:alien rulers
Excellent video essay.
Some big jumps in logic between her statements that X-Com couldn't defend against something and intent to learn and use it.
I really hope she comes back
She's dead 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@shastealyomeal NUH UH!
@@aa-tr9xt yes cobra king impaled her
@@shastealyomeal Fake and gay
So Vahlen is awesome, got it.
Its pretty boring and tiresome that they turned the German scientist character into a villain.
Because every Geman character in media has to be a villain right?
Lol i always felt like Dr. Vahlen was one heartbeat away from being a Superman villain
"Science isn't about why, it's about why not!"
3:04
Actually, it's not understandable at all. Even during an invasion. We don't fully know or understand meld long term or short term effects.
Think about this, what if yhe aliens had a weapon, that destroyed meld on a battlefield? She could have easily lost us the war. The only reason we know it's safe, relatively speaking, is because it's a new mechanic for the dlc.
You might enjoy the anime Planetes, towards the end there's a spin on Wernher von Braun, who is kind of a counterpart to Oppenheimer
"She is going to destroy humanity"
Me: Good ... finally!
Found the alien
Simple and this is kind of why This dictonomy of Valen and Oppenheimer does not really land fully.... and is with the exact thing that Xcom 2 is not a direct sequel of the first game... Extrapolating to Oppenheimer.... he said a whole lot of those things after the war ended in favor of the americans... but Valen case is as if the war went on and the Axis powers won the war.
Also, the desperation of the first game makes them disregard the consequences of their research on everyday because if they fail... the everyday will be screwed anyways... It is a good question of having a future we can at least be in control to be able to fix the mistakes we did vs a future were humanity is extinguished or oppressed by aliens and life either way radically change anyways due to alien presence in everyday life...
While she certainly doesn't seem properly concerned about the ethics of genetically modifying humans, her lines regarding the initial discovery of psionics or her insistence to try and preserve alien artifacts don't seem excessive. Detached from the moment-to-moment tactics of war? Perhaps. Irresponsible? Not yet.
To be fair, blowing up the tech is bad, there's no way to learn how to protect against them if you don't research it. Also, xcom soldiers are alwa6s considered expendable. Sure shes overly enthusiastic but remember, you signed off on it.
Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing to say, and announcing see she is bad for caring about getting the materials to research to prevent mankinds enslavement or destruction
Its humanities darkest hour, of course even thousands of peoples deaths getting those fragments early on would be invaluable
It's the key factor in better weapons, nano fibers to improve survivability, and improved medkits which can save lifes
this is weirdly individualised. everybody in the project is down for all the human modification stuff and the commander, you, signs off on all of it. she's maybe got the most open scientific curiosity out of anyone but that's probably because she's head of research, it's her job, she's not going around coercion soldiers into getting gene treatments, you're doing that because you want them to win. Shen manages to get volunteers for the quad amputee surgery no problem so anything else should be pretty small beans.
It's alvays ze Görmans.
most interesting character in both new x-com games.
I knew i shouldnt trust anyone who tells me to exercise restraint with explosives
The difference between a good scientist and a great scientist is that a good scientist
can develop what they perceive to be plausible, while the great scientist will also
perceive the consequence of the development and as such rather not develop
the envisioned development.
What about the mech soldiers?? They have given more🫡
Waifu material.
This could be an exciting new path for xcom. Maybe a an expansion for Xcom2 or Chimera squad. The experimentation..
Seethe. Vahlen is BAE.
I always found it odd how she speaks in her tapes in 2.... specifically: how much she seems to be _hissing._
Perhaps she got some Meld and tried to graft some Viper DNA into herself....?
Everyone wants to know what’s Valen doing. But no one cares how’s Valen doing.
Unfortunately for humanity in the XCOM universe, bio-modded soldiers are way better than Shien's MEC Troopers. I was injecting alien biological matter in everyone.
Her compulsion was always her greatest strength. But really, its also why real scientists have to deal with the ethics council. Also,sorry but those soldiers are very much volunteers.
Morality is subjective. If given the ability to become superhuman why wouldn't i take it. But then again i am the tipe of person that would create a dragon just to say i did.
There has to be a mod that reactivates the Alien Hunters DLC.
Dr.Vahlen did what Ian Malcom says in Jurassic Park. She tought what she could, but didnt stop thinking if she should.
(+ if I saw an Alien Hunter I cry cause they are an almost misson fail)
I never use gene splicing on my EW runs for a number of reasons, but among the big reasons is my general lack of trust in Vahlen.
She is definitely the kind of scientists that always asks herself "can I?" Instead of "should I?"
Just look at the Alien Hunters DLC in Xcom 2, the fact she dedicated her time and resources after the war to mess with alien genes and make monsters shows how insane she is deep down.
We do NOT need to modify the homies, sure exploit their technology and learn their tactics but we DONT need super human freaks. Like..if we can use power suits why the hell do I need to be a mutant???
Bro this video is bad ass
Great vid bro.😺
I think it's pretty telling how she never seems to consider the ramifications of giving actual mind control to soldiers - which, among many other problems, very well might result in a rogue soldier doing whatever because he can just take control of any authority he reports to which could have stopped him before being given his abilities.
Should read the xcom books
Why would she upgrade the Alien???
-Center
If vahlen's experiments weren't done then i wouldnt be able to icarus jump my Ranger with Serial into the rear of my enemies and flankshot every last one of them into oblivion. If that's not an option then what's even the point of science?
Three words: Aileen hunter dlc
this is not to say everything else you said is wrong, but the idea that Dr.Vahlen suggesting you try to use less explosives to preserve the alien's technology, is her not seeing the soldiers as people, or that she doesn't case based off this, is wrong. everything else might suggest this, but not this. you need to understand that in this game, humanity is fighting an highly technological advance alien race, that has come out the gate hostile. you need to understand both them, and their technology, to win, and the soldiers are there to do this. there's a quote from a marine whom was in the battle of fallujah, it went something like "if the mission wasn't important, you wouldn't risk your marines." now, regardless to how you feel about the war, this quote shows that being a soldier isn't about self preservation, if it was, you would stay away from any battlefield. However, the Xcom soldiers are being sent to these battlefields to kill these aliens, and to recover their technology. it's them risking their lives to save others. it would be easy to just toss a grenade, and end the battle, but will that grenade cost you the war.
This video is quite misleading
morality very subjective on whats good and evil also beliefs
Yeah i remember she was wild, that’s why i didnt use any mutations on my xcom EW playthrough. I didn’t have objections to cutting my soldiers arms and legs though.
Awesome video. I hadn't really stopped to consider that side of the scientific advances made during the game. The scientific change that horrified me was the mech soldier, where you amputate a soldier's limbs in order for him to pilot the mech suit, permanently making him essentially a quadrapalegic. So I usually only upgrade wounded soldiers to mechs and my head-cannon was that their injuries were lost limbs, paralyzed, etc. and so the amputations were just restoring normal functions through new mech limbs.
Yeah that does make sense mechanically. A gravely wounded soldier in-game suffers a permanent maximum will reduction. MEC soldiers are unaffected by a will stat, so will could be representative of not just mental, but some degree of athletic capability, which has now been permanently damaged.
Wait Dr. Vahlen dead or not