Checking Refrigerant Charge for R-410a Condensing Units Using Sub-cooling Method
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- Опубліковано 4 лют 2020
- This video is to help new technicians learn the basics of checking the charge on an air conditioner. The EPA requires all persons handling refrigerant to be EPA 608 certified. Please do not attempt to charge a unit if you are not certified or a student working under the supervision of a qualified trainer.
- Наука та технологія
Hello Dave,
As always an excellent video. I appreciate going old school and discussing the process. I found the comment that complained about not using a digital gauge to be the complete opposite of learning anything. In fact, the people who only learn that way: put this here and that there, and look at a screen result, are really not getting the point of this video. Also, they could screw it up backwards and not have any more of a clue. Appreciate the effort and fully understand that when your making a video your looking at a bunch of things besides just your work- like the camera, and that some times a little thing or too isn’t perfect. But the old school explanation, and the adding and removing was a real good plan. Your only other video better than this one is the ice bucket challenge from a year ago or two….
Agreed. We have digital gauges in our lab and use them on occasion... but generally prefer analog for teaching. Although the nice thing about digital is that it does the subcooling math for your and we have learned that a lot of newbie techs are not good at math for some reason. LOL
Thank you for your Information!!!
Excellent video. Good job. Thank You.
i have quite a bit to say. First, subcooling is used to measure systems utilizing a txv. or eev. metering devices. Second, Not all manufacturers list subcool ratings on data plate/sticker. Third, when subcool ratings are listed, the manufacturer requires the use of a charging chart, provided by them, in both the technician literature and a chart on the inside of the service panel. Fourth, a psychrometer is essential to proper charing of of any system R410A, R22, MO99/R44, R134A, etc.. Always measure wet bulb and dry bulb temperatures! HVAC systems are designed to increase the quality of lives of individuals, protect people's Investments and better quality of life and they're trust in you to provide it. Do it right the first time.
Apprentice
🎉🎉ttm
Great job!! Thank you!!
great video, thanks for keeping it simple
super!!! thank you, sir, for sharing!!!!!.
Excellent Tech on Tube
Great video
Perfect work sir i'm also dealing with R410a much but not quite sure if you can recover the charge as liquid as it was
great video!
Hey he never referred to gauge pressure which is also very important not much help.
5:20 - You meant to say recovery unit and not “reclaimer” here, right?
6:12 - Where’s your scale?!
6:41 - If you didn’t purge your suction side hose off camera, you just shot a hose full of air into the unit!
11:42 - Again, where’s your scale?!
12:43 - A hose full of air just went into your recovery tank!
Very well Done.
Don't forget to verify superheat after charging. Incorrect super heat can still kill a compressor at correct sub cooling.
R410A is a mixed 50/50 of R125 and R32 refrigerant. That whole point why it's charge in liquid form is to get 50/50 equal mixed of both refrigerant. The old method of purging and burping the hose will cause problem because it alters the composition of refrigerant. Use the vacuum pump to completely remove air from the refrigerant tank, yellow hose and manifold.
On a York 3.5 ton unit model YCJF42S41S1A R- 410A on the same cages in this video it read 135 on side of the Gage and the other circle gauge read 300 is this within range? He did add 1/2 a pound which gave us these numbers on the gauges.
Súper cool that video.
Omg you forgot to purge the low side hose .....there goes the system ...
Fyi
How you purge the system?
He didn’t purge either line
So when you recover refrigerate bc you added too much do you just shut the recovery machine off ? To see if you recovered the right amount for ur sub cooling ?
Hey guys, We actually to go back and put the rapid recovery machine back on the system and recover (blow charge out) some (almost all) the refrigerant we added due to multiple factors contributing to the low gage readings. Then we actually had to come back and add more refrigerant due to multiple internally contributing factors of the system. Then after all that we had to put the charge where it initially was... hahaha sorry guys... Matt actually contributed to the end results. Silly guy...geeze.....
I could sit here and explain what was happening but, idk if we have the capacity to understand why it was running at such a low capacity....
noooo he said it doesn't remember.... I've changed enough of them to know so, I'm not arguing.....
Thank you. now I can work on my own unit
Haha good luck!
@@codiecarroll735 Already saved $500 on tech fees this year by replacing our own capacitors on our rental units (just 2). It was delicious taking that money out of their hands. You can almost hear the techs salivating when they hear that buzz and no fan turning. Too bad, they won't be getting that easy money again. Plus they like to put the cheap Chinese crap caps in the units so they fail in 2 years and they can come back again. No more.
how long do you think capacitors last?@@connerhead126
Good video
I just a a coil change in my unit it aluminum inside consinser coil . It messed up my whole system it takes way tooo long for the my temputure to drop I mean if it's 95° out I understand it may take hours to get to the set temputure or 70 but it does not take 12 to 14 or. A day and on half and temputure drop on my thermostat 2 temp. What could be wrong could the technician disnt put right refriegerens or charge in my unit I do have a r410 unit ...
Do you have to use a filter drier when recovering refrigerant?
Is the sub cooling value fixed between 9-15 or does it change from one gas to another and from one air conditioner to another?
thank you
Wy do i ned the recovery unit wen i have about 300 pounds on the liquide line, can i connect directly to the recovery unit, and take same liquide.
You can take refrigerant out by opening the discharge/ red hose and charging hose hooked directly to the recovery tank.
Depends on if your recovery tank is empty or not, but I get what your saying 300psi on discharge line.. bit some tanks can hold higher charge
That's called "hot shot" that is against EPA guidelines in many cases. I wouldn't want to go on youtube and teach people how to hot shot. Also, you can lose oil like that, or break dip tubes.
Thank you for sharing this video. What is the amibient tempearture in this video?
It was filmed in December inside our training lab so probably high 60s or low 70s that day.
Did he open both the high side and low side valves when recovering?
Hi! Amazing video! Thank you for creating this type of content. I recently installed a new Rheem 16 seer 3.5 ton system (RA1642AJ1NA + RH1T4821STANJA) at home and pressures are low side 140 /High side
305 at a 81F outside temp night here in florida. During the day with 92F outside it was at around 175 on the low side and about 300 to 310 on the high side. Does that mean Am I low in refrigerant? The system is cooling but I feel it takes too long to lower temp inside. Like 1:45 or more to go from 72 to 70. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.
That sounds about right. If you don’t have digital gauges, google 410a PT chart and have a thermometer to tell you the ambient temperature. See how close you are to target pressures.
Good information, nice job. In the market for a new meter, do you recommend the SC440 meter?
We have not used the SC440, but we have liked the Fieldpiece SC640 ever since we used it in one of our videos a few years back. ua-cam.com/video/FMevkhVDvuU/v-deo.html
Very cool info. Thanks.
Way to go ACE.
Great Video, Easy to follow, Good Instructor
Safety my buddy...gloves!
You always use a scale and you HAVE to wait 20 mins tops for everything to stabilize or you didn’t get an accurate charge.
The only reason to use a scale is to record how much refrigerant you've used for keeping a log for EPA 608 compliance
Thanks for the great video
it was for the most part decent, but he should have purged the gauge lines, throttled, and stressed the importance of charging by liquid with 410a, in my overly critical opinion.
If you are going to pull refrigerant out of an overcharged system you have to make sure that your tank has been evacuated and he didn't Purge the lines between the recovery system and the tank.
If you contaminated system with air you're screwed..
Hi, as you add r410a to increase subcooling. What happens to the low side pressure and saturation temperature? Do they go up or stay the same? Thanks
At a certain point the low side will stay the same
@@BeautifulHomes83 How do you calculate super heat?
Should purge the low side hose as well prior to opening the valve.
He did. I didn't record it because it was take 2 or 3.
hi i have 4 zone 3ton outdoor unit that is connected to 4 inside split units. It only has suction line connectors (so i connect liquid side gauge). I noticed the compressor was making noise since we have had 90+ temperature. I checked pressure it was 200, so i purged some gas i noticed the suction line was having liquid. I dropped the pressure to 150. But now the system giving the error "high-temperature protection of compressor discharge".
Update: i added back some refrigerant and still system giving the same error. It tries to come on, run the compressor for second or two alarm for high temperature and shuts off.
Purging into the atmosphere is illegal literally everywhere. Yeah, you let out gas and now you are having problems. No surprise. Call a professional will ya.
You don't have a clue what you're doing. Call a professional.
Hi may I move my condenser unit while still connected about five inches or am I risking a leak thanks
It would be difficult to move without damaging the connection or pinching the copper line.
Yeah it's true you are going to have to pump down the refrigerant and recover the rest or other way you will damage the unit. Good luck!! 👍
I’ve been told a few times to always close the king valves when you are gonna recover the gas so you pull oil from the compressor. This pulled a pound or so and I didn’t see him shutting the king valves off. How high is the risk of pulling oil out if you recover 1-2 pound of gas?
Don't worry, be happy
Samuel Valenzuela lol
@B K yes they aren't, are Queen valves made by Freddy Mercury Inc.
Not high...and not at all. If he closed the valves then he would not have been able to pull refrigerant out of the system.
Can someone please help me explain why my needle in the high side (red gage) bounced back (fluttering ) ?
Air/moisture in line maybe.
Could be bad valve in the compressor. Is it making unusual noise?
On a clean or new condenser wouldn't the liquid line temp be basically reading ambient air temp?
WHAT!!!!!!
No heat from load and compressor
Sir. What is the name of yellow colour meter. I want to buy. That meter you check the temperature
It's a field piece volt meter
What about if you are running it as a heat pump? Is the procedure the same?
Yes. You can use sub-cooling to check the charge on heat pump while running in the cooling mode.
He reminded me of my Instructor back in tech school.
I think u should take a close look at the suction tem, and pressure because under 32 degrees the unit will start to freeze. Also the refigerant boil in the evaporator at 40 degrees. U should use a scale next time to see how much u ounces u have put in the system. U also dident bave to hook up the recover macgine to remove refigerant. All u should do is to just connect the yellow hose to the tank and open the high side, valve and do a passive recovery when the system is running.
what numbers are ok for temp clamp
not a real question. the "real number" are exactly what they read. ill fix this for you: What should be trying to achieve for subcooling? (he already answered this as 10'F of subcooling)
Why did you install liquid in on a suction line without a vaporizer?
If youve been a tech for few years, you'll know how to meter the freon using the valve on the guage.
Subcooling txv
Curious.... How would you remotely know where to start charging without first taking door off and glancing at temp and pressure relief chart.
Your pressure/temp chart is on your gauges.
He is charging by subcool temp and the label clearly states that the subcool temp is 10degrees his actual was 8 degrees. Personally, I would have left it at that since it was within 3deg.
If you recover a portion of 410a from the system, isn't fractification in the gas state a concern?
Fractification?😆
@@joejones6842 right on
Why use a recovery machine, just do a passive recovery opening the liquid line? This is crazy to go through all of this to remove a few ounces on an overcharge.
I think he did that to explain both
@@warrencorcoran3798 you’re joking, right? You have to add to the low side while running as a liquid in a system using blended refrigerants. You don’t dump it in, but meter it in through your gauges.
@@adamhawkins2206 I only add vapor to a running system, Adam, I cant get back to the original post so i cant reread what i was refering too, you were refering too,
@@warrencorcoran3798 you add 410a as a vapor? Any blended refrigerant has to be added as a liquid to avoid fractionation. You should never add any blend as a vapor you are diluting the mix and changing the properties of the refrigerant.
I’m not being a jerk, I want to make sure you understand that refrigerant can be added as a liquid to the low side as long as you meter it through your gauge valves or a vaporizer installed inline. I’ve done it for years without any issues you just can’t dump it in, that will cause a problem. Hope this helps.
@@adamhawkins2206 I agree 100% when it comes to zeotropic refrigerants like R410A--they MUST be removed from their cylinder as a liquid to avoid separation. The only blend refrigerants that can be removed from its cylinder as a vapor and not fractionate are azeotropic blends. These are rated just like pure compounds because they do not separate when they boil, such as R507. And to the techs who charge via vapor with R410a, when you do this you essentially ruin the entire jug of refrigerant.
can i turn the ac on connect the blue hose to low port side & add freon without connecting the other side .
Physically yes you can, but then how will you know when you have enough, or too much in the system?
Yes
that's not freon, 410a is puron (or just "refrigerant'). you need both hoses connected, which can be done with the system on or off. then for charging, the system must be on. You charge through the low side (throttle, not wide open), and you need the high side pressure to calculate the subcooling.
@@donlanway5520 Incorrect, you physically cannot charge with the system off. The refrigerant tank will equalize pressures with the ac system and it wont fully charge the system beyond a very small initial amount.
@@joejones6842 this wasnt demonstrated as a brand new install, so the refrigerant being pre-charge wasn't relevant here. but otherwise I agree, most do come pre-charged.
Does the unit you are working on have a TXV?
It would have to be a txv. If it was a fixed orifice you would charge with superheat method
Whole point of the video
if you have to ask that, contact a professional. this isnt for you
is the unit on when adding the r410a?
Yes, it was an operating system that we were adding charge to.
you cannot charge anything without the compressor turned on (other than a small initial amount when you pulled down a vacuum).
What if target subcooling number is not given on the label ?
You can google the manufacture installation manual or go with the industry standard of 10F. You have to remember that sub-cooling is used with a TXV, if you have a piston metering device for example, you will need WB + DB and target super-heat.
Txv in the evap will show what it throttles at
Good Job
I need 12oz 410a for a window AC. Does anyone know where it is available? I see 5 lbs, 2 lbs, but no 12oz. I only need it to make it through this one season.
You should not be adding refrigerant before repairing the leak.
Tec Tube How do you repair the leak? Any suggestion?
From the posted question, it may well indicate he has repaired the leak and needs to charge the AC with the amount on the spec tag, hopefully he knows to pull a vacuum first
@@tuckerin36 Doubt it. Anyone who knows how to repair a leak also knows where to buy refrigerant. And they buy it more than 12 oz at a time because they would be using it daily. We are betting that they are a home owner that has a small leak and want to "top it off."
@@lilyyang6129 Honestly, no one really repairs leaky window units. The labor cost is usually the same as the cost of a brand new window unit ($150-250) at a retailer.
it will be nice if you do replicate with the digital tools.
Just curious, why didn't you use a filter drier when recovering the refrigerant?
To protect your recovery equipment and cylinder
No such thing as doing that.
Burb the air out the lines.
Do u have a video available to check superheat instead of subcooling?
When do you use superheat vs subcool
Why didn't the teacher seem to pay much attention to the suction pressure?
Because the "txv" metering device can fake you out.
What’s the tonnage on that unit? Does carrier still make that model?
It was a Payne brand PA3ANA. Going off memory, probably 2 tons.
Any reason for No purging?
Thought the same
He wanted to add room temperature air to the compressor so he can destroy it after a year or two and sell them a new one.
Outside air in the refrigerant lines will slowly create an acid in the oils in your lines and mess up the compressor
Thanks
Why turn the gun when you are charging
Forgot to purge the low side hose before charging.
He did that off camera. I noticed during editing we didn't record it. Too late at that point. lol
Yeah right!!??
When you recovering refrigerant does the unit have to be off?
When do you use superheat vs subcool?
Subcooling method if the evaporator has a TXV (Thermo Expansion Valve). Otherwise, superheat method.
For a txv you charge to sub cooling. After you verify super heat is between about 10 to 15. Remember the superheated gas is what cools the compressor. If the sub cooling is correct but super heat is too high the compressor or oil can overheat. If the super heat was to low their could be liquid making it's way into the evaporator possibly damaging it.
I thought you shouldn't put liquid freon on the low side.
You do put 410a in as a liquid as it's a blend. R22 is gas charged. Don't slug it in and use spurts or an atomizer. Tanks can't push it into the high side. The 410a will vaporize when it hits the lower pressure so there is gas going in by the time it hits the compressor.
Meter it in slowly. Don't slam the compressor with liquid.
So the subcooling is 17. it’s 7 Fahrenheit above unit subcooling!!!!?????
I calculated subcooling initially at 4'F, where did u get 17 from?
You did not purge hoses at the begining, non condenser gas inside unit now. No gloves no safety glasses and I am not technician.
10 degrees of subcooling in general ,with you don't have the data of what your system is.
Why not keep track of how many ounces were added. That would help to determine how much should be recovered.
Why didn't you use a scale?
The scale is only to bill the customer. If you are a custodian, you will will never have a scale.
scale isnt necesssary for charging by subcooling
Hi, can you tell me how to find out the seers in Trane unit?
Sir good day to U
I'm very interested watching your video teaching of cooling refrigerant air conditioner.
Can R22 and R32 can be used in CHIGO room air conditioner?
If you don't know, you better call someone.
The replies seem to have been erased or hidden.
Does the condenser needs to be on while recharging?
niZmo yes
Yes
Yes
the condenser is a series of copper tubes. how do u turn that on? that said, you cannot charge a system without the compressor turned on, nor calc subcooling.
Yes
Why didn’t you just stop adding refrigerate when ur temp on ur multi meter hit 82?
Humberto Aguirre I’m pretty sure he overcharged it on purpose so he can show the whole process of what to do…
@@DeadPool8455 And it was a great show
I would love to see everything step by step if he didn’t talk and had something write up to take notes
it would have been helpful if you were using a scale to show how much refrigerant it took to go from 8 to 15. recovering refrigerant should have been done with the unit running and a scale. also use an amp meeter to show how much power is being drawn during this.
This again? The video is not called "Weigh in a charge". Nor is it, "check amp draw of the compressor". It is called, "Checking Refrigerant Charge using Subcooling". Keep an eye out for the "Weigh in a Charge" and the "RTU maintenance" videos, to cover your unnecessary and unoriginal comment, over the coming months. Sheesh....
@@mungs1104 judging by your comments you really need to go back to school and quit trolling. I've got gauges older than you.
@@cyounger5716 ok Pickle kisser. The scale and amp meter. When the sub cooling was low the amp meter was to show how many amps the compressor was drawing. The scale comes in to TEACH (something you definitely need) how much refrigerant was added to bring the sub cooling to 15. And again the amp meter was to show how much more amperage it was drawing at the higher sub cooling. Also would have been handy to show temp split on all three phases. Now how old are you and how long have you been doing refrigeration?
The best way to redo an over charge is to recover all of the refrigerant and weigh it to see how much it was over charged, comparing it to the FACTORY SPECS, I am losing my mind over the fact that is see so few instructors relating to the factory specs, simply recharge to the lbs and oz specified and then test. I have not been able to find one video on YT is several days of looking that properly goes over charging a unit from an evacuation.
This isnt always possible or practical depending on the size of the system.
Thank but how can discharge
Will that be the same on an exv or eev?
Will what be the same?
The general process? Yes.
The specifics? No. Ever type of system will have a different target sub-cooling and the metering device can make a difference on that. Plus many systems with an EXV also have digital controls that you will need to interact with.
With that said, it is rare for a residential ducted split system to have an EXV at the indoor evaporator coil.
@@TECTubefilms thank you!
i have several (like 14) 5 ton, split units with exv indoors. and ony 5 are working "working" as they sould. 3 of them , compressor is on, pressures seem OK but pipes are ambient temp. 5 of them suction pipe are sweting cold. and the rest have som other problems.
@@afsecaira Interesting. Usually only mini-splits have EXVs on the evaporators for units that small. To have one on a traditional system is rare. What is the brand of equipment?
@@afsecaira If the pressures are "OK," then correct charging is not likely your issue so this particular video won't prove very useful to you.
@@afsecaira However if your refrigerant "pipes" are both ambient temperature while your compressor is running with normal pressures, that seems to go against physics.
my AC unit doesn't have sub cooling value at all
Some equipment... especially ductless inverter systems... do not publish sub-cooling target values and require all charging to be done by weight instead.
OK but at some point i have to refill refregrent because its level become little lower@@TECTubefilms
@@docesam If it is lower, that means you have a leak. Ideally, you would reclaim the refrigerant, repair the leak, and then weigh-in the amount of refrigerant that you need.
Why didn't this guy use a scale to measure what he added?
Because he's charging by subcooling, not weight.
Also, he's not invoicing a customer, so weight not needed.
@@one2toomany I think he is talking about using a scale to see how much you have used. I never take my tank out without using my scale. You need to know the difference between 5oz and 5lbs. Hard to say when you are charging any system using a drum. Also if you were charging a package unit you would be using a scale.
This isn't boxing, it's refrigeration
damn who braze those lines ?????:))))))
Excuse me sir! You just turnt the botle upsidedown, meaning you are charging with liquid and not gas. Is that a right practice?
Some body shold help me here please.
excuse me sir! you always charge a 410A with liquid NOT gas ..good god!!!!!
Excuse me sir! HVAC Commercial Tech for 32 years. You always Charge 410a and other blends with liquid. Refrigerants R-32 and R-135 Azeotropic blends need to be charged in liquid just don't flood the compressor
It’s okay to turn the bottle upside with R410A because that avoids fractionation
Yes thats correct what wasnt correct he didnt bleed the high and low side before filling
For a newbie to ask a question is a necessary procedure for learning. The same newbie making an erroneous statement is an indication that more attention is required.
Don’t forget a scale so you know how much you putting in and how much you taking out!
Use digital manifold if this is for professionals.
huh?
videos like this make me laugh. everything is right there no bending down plenty of space around. little table for the recovery tools. must be nice. lol
72 dgs in the shop...crawl spaces around 130 dgs on a nice day, with spiders 🕷 😆 Stay in industrial refrigeration. 20 years and still ll happy
Its a school, not a torture chamber. New techs will have plenty of real world conditions when the graduate.
It called a lab dude... We teach here and use it for the videos. You try filming and training in a utility room. Smh
An HVAC guy went to check out my AC unit for a store, he wants to charge me $2000 for 14lbs of r410a recharge and to weld on 3 service ports or some solenoid shits.
This is insane.
And I Thought 1lb of 410a=50 bucks is insane, "freon Jockeys"!
He must be good!!! Ha!
Wow, he must be high on Feon!
ld mention this all asume we have a clean, almost factory clean condensing coil. we only recover then weighing in correct charge, it to easy! then you have an idea if coil needs clean. the rest of this takes to long and leave for inacuracies, and waste of time.
Puron systems are to be serviced with liquid refrigerant. Puron cylinders have a dip tube so liquid refrigerant is dispensed from the upright position. So why do I always see technicians turning the bottle upside down?
Depends on the cylinder, make sure you read the box. Dip tubes can fail so not all manufacturers use them.
If your cylinder has a dip tube, wouldn’t gas be taken out when upside down?
Fun video. Truly for a pro. Because a pro knows that the evaporator and the area its cooling is probably at 60 degrees or off. High subcool. Tough gig
What are you talking about the evap being 60 degrees off? That's completely false, who told you that? And on top of that, for subcooling your measuring the temp of the refrigerant at the suction line, not the physical evaporator area......