I think the physics of what you are saying is dead on. I went to the scrap yard today and bought a 500 lb steel bulldozer weight for $185 - it is 36" long and has all that mass right under the 8"x10" flat on the end, also a nice curved radius just off the edge. No stand to build settled into the ground and welded to and anchor bolt. I know you don't need to hear it but great points made. Just finished my vertical forge and plan to get to work and grow my tools after growing my skills. Go the the scrap yard - I saw several other great options - one could have easily bought 200 lbs for half the money and still had a great option
@@wayneparris3439 in the spirit of full disclosure - as I was cleaning up the flat end - I found a couple deep (3-4 mm) inclusions - remembering this was manufactured for weight not perfect steel - it took me a couple of hours to grind them out and the surface flat again. Now it looks good. question: I was planning on heat treating with my Ox/Ac torch - with a few cycles og heating and allowing to cool slowly to room temperature - thoughts on my plan?
@@rickschultz1141 Well, it is going to take a LOT of heat, much more than a cutting torch will provide. I would just mount it so it does not move and go to work! Really my 250 pound main anvil has a soft face and it is not a problem at all. Actually the bigger the anvil the harder it is to harden them and it is very common for larger anvils to have softer faces. Remember the red hot metal is much softer than your weight is so the project will move and the weight will laugh it off.
Finally, a man who understands basic physics. Remember that the most commonly used anvil around the world is a 12-16 pound sledgehammer head turned on its end. So increasing the mass as you have shown increases the "equal and opposing reaction." Yes, it's just basic physics. I'm glad you took the time to show it in such fine detail.
Those are incredibly dangerous. A sledge hammer face is often a hardened steel, pounding on a hardened steel surface like a hammer (much harder then what a normal anvil is) around a typical anvil height will lead to a shrapnel bomb exploding right around the height of your sensitive areas. What this guy is recommending is essentially safe, because the steel he suggests using is in an annealed condition. Annealed low to medium carbon steel will deform rather then shatter.
To Wesley M: Respectfully, your assessment is inaccurate. A sledgehammer head could just as easily be tossed into a fire and annealed. But that would defeat the purpose. While striking a hardened steel surface against a hardened steel surface is not a good idea, the object is to strike red/orange hot steel (read soft) so there is no striking of hammer against anvil (sledgehammer head). Your scenario makes no more sense than to pound any anvil with a hammer with no malleable hot steel between the two. I refer you to my original comment: The sledgehammer head is the most common type anvil used worldwide, particularly by village blacksmiths. When used properly it is no more dangerous than any anvil.
For the people complaining in the comments about your style teaching... There is nothing forcing them to watch. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
I'm a beginner to blacksmithing, and after watching this video, I have some scrap I never realized would be more effective than the solution I had to the anvil question previously. Thanks for the video, man.
Your welcome! Solid steel will get the job done. Lump charcoal works well in a forge, it was the fuel for centuries before coal. Just don't use pressed sawdust bricketts, most used in a BBQ, there is no heat in them.
About 10 years ago I bought a piece of 4140 toll steel from ebay. It was round piece about 5 inches in diameter and about 1 foot long. I searched my local scrap yards and they had nothing. It still only cost me about 80 bucks but I didn't have to spent 30 bucks driving into town. The steel was completely annealed and far too soft with little rebound. So I built a quick ground forge and heated the top half a few degrees passed non magnetic and filled a 55 gal drum with a brine made with pool salt and water. I just kept adding salt until a potato would float. I got board to stir the water with and get it swirling. I had welded a big T handle on the bottom end of the anvil so I had a way to grab it. When it was good and glowing orange I quenched it in that swirling brine. It hissed at me for probably 5 minutes. I'm glad I had safety glasses on because I got a nice salty steam session. LOL. After quenching I had to wait a full day for it to cool off enough to handle. The quench worked!!! The anvil was super hard. Too hard to use but that was OK. The quenching gave it a small crack on one edge about 2 inches long. No big deal. I thought about welding it and sanding it smooth but I didn't want to mess with my heat treat/temper. So I baked it in my oven at 300 degrees for two hours. Waited another day for it to cool in my shop and tested it. Took all the brittleness out and that thing rebounds like an anvil costing thousands of dollars. Next I built a base. I could have just concreted it in a bucket and called it good but instead I went to a steel yard and bought a pipe big enough to fit the anvil inside and a round piece of steel for the base. I welded the pipe to the base and filled the pipe with pea gravel. That allowed me to drop my anvil in and set the height perfect for me by adding or taking away gravel. Once it was perfect, I rant 3 small wooded wedges between the top of the pipe and the anvil to lock it in. I had some scrap steel square pipe that I cut up and welded around the pipe to hold tongs and hammers. Painted everything with black engine enamel paint except for the face of the anvil which I keep oiled. All in all, I have about $120 into a kick @ss anvil. A few other advantages to this anvil. I don't have a huge shop so the footprint of this anvil is much smaller than a normal anvil. It hits like a 300 lb anvil because of all the mass directly underneath and has excellent rebound. Very similar in function to a Robin Anvil if you are familiar with those. Lastly, the funny thing is I bought a cheap welder to for this build, figuring it would come in handy. This started my side business as a welder, fabricator. 10 yrs later, my shop is dedicated to welding. I run mig in my shop and a Miller Trailblazer on my Truck. I've got a Hypertherm plasma cutter, an Avani fume extractor. A huge Gantry Crain I build that lifts 3 tons. I even built a huge road roller that I bull behind with my tractor to put roads in for customers. Funny how one hobby leads you into another. For anyone needing a decent cheap stick welder, you can get an AHP 160 amp, DC welder with dual voltage for about $200 and it has an impressive 60% duty cycle. Highly recommended. I will tell you once you get into a Trailblazer you are looking at $7,000 - $8,000 but it can pay for it self in two or three jobs easy. I hope this helps anyone interested in getting a rockin anvil for cheap.
I have been using a portion of a forklift tine as my anvil for 2 years, I was using it flat, not alot of mass under the hammer. Then I found a chunk of mild steel 6x6x12 but odd shaped and has a 2 1/2 inch hole in it. Alot more mass and seems easier on a injured wrist and fore arm I have. I use pieces of round stock of various diameters when I need to curve or radius my material. So I have located some mild pieces that I will use for a waist under the tine and will weld it solid all the way round to make it one piece- using a spacer and welding from the inside out. And I intend on making a horn to use for shaping when I need it. I know its opposite of what you said. But I got my welding rods for free and I have the time to do it. I enjoyed this video very much, thank you for making it.
Thank you for a good, informative video. In the UK a lot of farriers have a rail track section shaped into an anvil for final shaping of shoes, obviously, for this purpose a piece of track makes sense because it is lighter and compact enough to fit in a truck and a lot of fixed mass is not necessary. I think this is where a lot of people get the idea for a track anvil from seeing farriers use them but don't realise the requirements and product are different.
Your welcome! To get started, this is all you need. Yes with a horn, heal, pritchel and hardy holes more functions are combined into one tool but there are other ways to get those functions. Good luck!
I love the creativity and determination of folks to improvise and just make it work. Yeah a big expensive anvil is nice but a lot of love goes in to working with what you have for now. Cheers all and "Hammer ON!"
Right on! Thank you for putting the truth out here! My anvil is very similar to this. I also run into people that think they know what they talk about, but they are only running with junk they see. My forge is a box of dirt and clay like they used in logging camps in the 1700's. It is good to know history in this field!
Good video. I started with nothing but a 50lbs cast iron anvil and later got a pair of HF cast steel Russian anvils for I think 100$ each. Finally after 20 years I got a Refflinghause anvil and wish I'd gotten one sooner. That said it was a hard decision to pay that much, but not one I've regretted. I've also built a couple of post anvils and such. For bladesmithing you can get by a lot easier than blacksmithing. A friend of mine managed to get a large, 3" thick fork lift tine and made several bladesmith anvils from it. I've also seen several anvils made from a rectangular block of steel with different radius added to simulate a horn. Wayne Goddard has several articles on home made anvils in his books which are worth a look. All that said, it's hard to beat a quality anvil, but with old ones getting hard to find and new ones expensive, it's a big investment.
I love the farmer "get it done" mind set! My wife is from a long line of farmers and her youngest brother is still running the family farm! Good luck :D
thank you for your knowledge. i've always wondered if there was a draw back to all those anvils that i've seen with a welded on piece of plate at the top. NOW i have that answer. and a definitive and understandable explanation as to WHY it is bad. THANK YOU sir!
Your welcome :D A hard face welded to an anvil... when 100% solid and no air gaps, will help but with a gap, you are not getting the energy return you should have.
I like this guys style, old school common sense and experience. What he has said and showed rings true for the whole YT community. Realising that the tube is full of trends, know it alls and charlatans will get you off to a very good start here. We need more folks like this guy to call them on their mistakes and down right horseshit and it's plain to see the man is correct. Not one logical retort from those in the wrong, speaks volumes for sure.
Definitely makes sense. I have a piece of mainline track that I have given it the anvil shape and I've noticed when I use my friends anvils the metal moves faster and for some reason more controlled guess that the vibration in the track more of deflection I guess you would say. I've been searching for months for a anvil I could afford but now I think I'm going to search for a block of steel and see how that works. thanks for the video.
Any block, from a scrap yard, steel yard, large machinery or heavy equipment dealer etc, will work. Just make sure it is steel and not cast iron. Good luck!
Thanks Wayne. As a retired guy looking to learn how to forge some small projects this is real helpful. I appreciate you guys with a lifetime of experience taking the time to make a video to pass on a little knowledge.
Thank you, I do intend to make more but I had an accident and my left arm is not able to handle swinging a hammer at the moment which is the pits when you are left handed LOL :D Getting old is not for sissies :P
I agree - its all about what is under the hammer, your typical london pattern anvil is great for tooling around, but probably has less than half its mass under the sweet spot. I have a 150 x 150mm x 200mm high block of mild steel that weighs about 30kg and a small 20kg london pattern anvil with a hardened face. I do most of the heavy hitting on the mild steel block, the London pattern anvil I mostly use the horn and the hardie. It is slightly taller than the mild steel block, and has a lot more rebound, but I dont think the steel moves as well on it. I do use rail track a bit, but I have it loose, I lay it on its side on my heavy steel work bench giving access to the side radius on the rail to work small stock around, it works great for that.
Clearly you have struck some hot metal! Without a doubt other shapes are great in the shop. My goal was to help new people understand the qualities of a working anvil and the easiest way to get started. Most do not even think of mass under the hammer and concentrate on the shape. It is nice to hear from you. Sorry about the audio, things are still a work in progress. Get it hot and hit it hard!
Loved the video, it was very informative. I wish I would have seen it years ago before I spent $600 on an anvil. The only thing about the video is I wish the sound was not so bad. I think everyone interested in blacksmithing should see this video...keep up the good work.
Thank you, yes I do understand the audio issues and I am working to do better. Thanks for sticking with it. There is nothing wrong with a "real" anvil, I have 5 of them from 100# to 250#. Many people get hung up on a horn, heal and holes when most of your forging never uses them. Enjoy your anvil and go out to the shop and put it to use!
Thanks for the informative video. After 30 years with power tools and shooting for even longer, I didn't notice any problems with the sound either until I read all of the comments whining about it.
Makes sense. I use any thing that will allow me to hand cold bend soft steel and a table vice for small pieces. I use acetylene to weld into place. Forging is a future attempt. My point is, as you said, there is no needed to purchase the perfect tool to get a job done. I don't have an anvil. Finding a block of steel would be useful.
Nice video. I do have a piece of track I use mostly for the horn I cut into it. My go to "anvil" is an 80lb block of pig iron that I found in a dumpster. It has worked great for everything I've asked of it. Everything up to 1" round bar has moved well for me on it. Great job.
I've watched a couple of the railway track anvil making videos and wondered why they went through all the trouble shaping and polishing. I tried one once and it didn't feel right - now I know why. Thanks for the insight! I have been using a 3 foot section of rail, standing on end, for years. I welded a couple of 4 inch angles to the bottom and mounted it on a hardwood stump - it works fine for the home projects that I do.
and by the way, most people search for an excuse not to do certain things, instead of simply taking the easiest possible thing and using it, i needed to mill a keyway, but i didnt have a mill, so i rigged up my dremel tool to some aluminium profiles, put an xy-table under it and there you go. certainly not as precise as a bridgeport, but if you dont have one, its better than no keyway. same goes for anvils and other tools, sure there are some tools that are neccesary but most operations in fabricating something can be rigged up by utilizing stuff that tumbles around your garage! :)
this is good information. i would take it even one step farther though. for example, when i first started forging, i used a flywheel from an old f150 bolted to a stump as my first anvil. it was dead as a doornail and I loat a lot of energy, bit for someone just getting started, i had a hard flat surface and an edge to work as well and it was basically free. anything you can hammer on and use to manipulate metal is a good starter anvil. no sense wasting money on junk anvils and railroad track because it is not much if any better than a much cheaper option for a beginner. Then if or when you decide to get serious about it, spend the money on a proper anvil to get the most out of your swing. i personally bought a 300 lb fisher and i love how quiet it is and despite being 120 years old still gives me 75% rebound which for an amateur like me is great. thanks again for the video. the info is really useful for us new guys
Thank you. Yes, mass is mass. Steel has better return for your energy than cast iron but the important thing is to get out there and start forging! "real" anvils are nice too, I have 5 but to get started, a good block of steel will get you going and down the road.
nice, i had access to a cylinder shape piece of Steel flat on both ends it works just as well after I polished it. few people laughed at me for having that for an anvil but it works and it was free
I agree with you on this, however, I am making a rail anvil anyway because I have the time and I think it looks great when done right. Maybe not as effective but fun to make for sure. I am also not a blacksmith, just make small blades for fun. Good video.
Thank you. I watch UA-cam on my tv and never get on my computer just to comment. I will for your video however because my wife is much more willing to let me start blacksmithing now that she knows that I don't have to break our bank to get started. I have been woodworking since I was 9, and am ready learn something new at 35. So again thank you!!!
Glad to help! Be careful though, hot metal is addictive and soon the tools start to breed in the shop when you go into the house at night. Find a good association and get some instruction from people who know what they are doing and can work with you and guide you. ABANA (Artist Blacksmith Assoc of North America) is the umbrella group for many of the state associations and is a good place to start looking for local instruction. There is some good info on UA-cam but the "make it up as I go" instruction videos FAR out number the good stuff! Good luck!!
Great informational video. Now that this is a popular hobby, supplies have become expensive. This kind of information makes the hobby more accessible for beginners! Thank you 👍
Your welcome. I see people all the time spend money in the wrong place. It is expensive enough to get into smithing but it is possible to do it on a reasonable budget if you think outside the box. This will get you going, eventually you will run across a "real" anvil and likely as not will buy it. That is fine, now you have 2 LOL
Thank you so much for this very informative video . I'm just starting out blacksmithing , and I don't want to pay a lot right outta the gate. I have a 2' section of railroad iron and a terribly messed up 42 lb. cast iron anvil. I didn't want to use either one so thanks to you I don't have to . I live approx. 20 miles from a steel yard and THAT is where I will pick up my first "Square" anvil. Thank you and I hope you keep this sort of video coming because I am now a subscriber.
This is exactly what I use. I have two configurations, one just like you show, and one that has three profiles on it's face. The first radii is very aggressive, 1" the 2nd is approximately 2.5 in and the 3rd is about 20'. I don't think I'll ever use anything else.
I'm not a blacksmith, but from time/time, I need a striking plate...your information is valuable...very informative... a great segment...Thank You, Uncle Black
thank you so much for your video it is very informative, and I do love when people break the barriers of common thought to reveal a simple answer to a question that never needed to be complicated.
I really like the way you get right down to the basics. I'm new to forging and you taught me more in this short video than hours and hours of BS I've been reading and watching here on YT. So I would like to thank you for your straight shooting. I learned a lot.
Good video- The traditional medieval anvil was very much like you describe: a block of iron about that size mounted on a wood post. My post anvil is 4" x 5" by about 6". Weld angle iron on each side, drill holes, use lag bolts and screw it to the wood post. But, I also have a Trenton (one of the last ones built after WWII, I think) that was welded at the factory, as you mention. People ask me, "who could ever break an anvil and then weld it back together?" LOL!! A post anvil-block of steel is fine, if that is all you can afford, but if you have a chance to get an old anvil at a reasonable price don't pass it up. You will never regret it! I love that old Trenton; the ring and the bounce are incredible. It will be my life long companion!!
yes, I have to agree, if you can get an anvil of conventional design, do it but not at the price most "collectors" are demanding. Reasonable priced anvils ARE out there but it takes some digging. Trentons seem to fine me, I have 3 of them and an Arm and Hammer (NO not Vulcan) One small Trenton I have a prior owner sometime in the past tried to grind away any trace of the weld, I am guessing to try to hide the "repair" and increase value.. dip wadds. LOL The whole point of this video is to get people out there and hitting hot metal rather than spending a bunch of time and money making things that will be substandard anyway.
Yes! Finally a pro who dumbs it down to the basics! All one needs is a surface large enough to work on & harder than hot steel. And for a beginning smith with little experience & hobbyist-level projects, a nice hunk of steel is right where ya wanna be. As for a Hardie hole, skip it. Make your tools (including a small "horn") that'll go into your vice. (BTW, you should have a vice.) The vice does exactly what a Hardie hole does, nothing less, & perhaps even better; it keeps your tools from bouncing around when you're banging away. Keep it simple. Men of old forged weapons of war on far less than what we know as modern anvils.
Although I do not disagree and have collected quite a few, vice's especially big old ones have a hidden problem. They always seem to be not quite right for my current bench, and I am starting to need a separate shop just to store the benches I make.
I’ve been forging on a rail cut to the shape of an anvil for the last five years, and I can tell you with certainty that you’re…. Right. Mostly. My little guy is pretty good if you’re not forging stock larger than 1 inch. Trouble with me is where I live I can’t find a scrap yard that will let me walk in and poke around, and old ladies selling Peter wright anvils on Craigslist for $100 has been over for a long time around here. So I built a hydraulic forge press instead. Yeah, I feel like a cheater, but I’m also not spending a week trying to forge a single pattern welded knife anymore.
Good perspective. I use a 250 pound Hay Budden, and I use the horn, pritchel and Hardy a lot, but I can certainly appreciate the utility of a block with multiple radii like that. And if you machine some swages into the sides... I think Glen (GS Tongs) has shown how incredibly well this system works.
Yes, horn and heal are useful to have but I directed this to someone just starting, being held back from starting smithing by the lack of a "traditional " anvil. You may have surmised I have other anvils and my 250# Trenton is center stage in the shop.
You are absolutely correct. The best anvil for general purpose work would be a block of steel. Look at any power hammer, the anvil on just about all of them is a simple block of steel. Now if one has to do round bends or scroll work and accurate hot cutting one would need an anvil with a horn and hardy hole. The plain steel block still makes a better general purpose anvil and is in fact better for blade smiting. A rail can be used to make an anvil, but for light work and if the horn is made long and round possibly for tin. I myself would never weld a plate to the top of an anvil, I don't have a forge big enough to heat the anvil to welding temperature and minions (fellow smiths!) to forge weld the plate on with sledges, not counting getting it in and out of the forge and heat treating it after.
What you presented here definitely RINGS true. LOL These guys are paying 6 to 10 dollars a pound for Anvils. It's crazy. I got lucky and had one given to me, but still use a chunk like you have here just as much. I only use the anvil for its hardy hole and pritchel hole.
Thanks for the video. Very informative and quite relieving actually. My 12 year old boy is always throwing horseshoes and other metal in the fire to get them red hot so I figure maybe I should feed his curiosity by trying a bit of shaping of the red hot metal hes making :) This makes it pretty simple and cheap to see if he'd like to go down the smithing hobby road. Thanks again!
Nat TheProjectGuy thank you. The art of smithing and in the bigger picture, forging is alive and doing well. You don't say where you are from but do a search for a local to you smithing group. The return in information will be well worth the effort. ABANA is the over arching organization and every state has their own group. Good luck!
I found a 100 lb block of steel at the scrap yard today. 5" square x 13" long. I paid about $25 for it. Set it in my stump on end and am waiting for silicone (mounting solution recessed into stump) to cure. Even being mild steel, it has plenty of rebound for my needs. A major upgrade to my fabricated anvil that I made from laminated 1"x3" flat bar.
Thanks you so much for posting this. I want to get my feet wet with basic blacksmithing and this is what I needed. I have already seen how to make a horn and attach a tail part with a hardy hole after the fact but as you stated it needs to welded all the way from the center to the edge. I plan to do this in stages. I plan to post this on my own channel in some time.
Found a wood splitting wedge at a local 2nd hand shop; needs to have the end ground and flattened. Then, with some stand to hold it, I'll have a shop utility anvil for moments when I need to smack on something.
Good video Wayne, you're right that's all you really need but a horn or some other tools for doing bends etc. Come in handy. If you haven't seen Glen's anvils from GS Tongs take a look they're based on the principals you just mentioned.
You are correct there isn't a horn and that was kind of the point, most all your bends can be done right on the face. A horn is handy for supporting your work but is not mandatory for bending, good technique and hammer control will give you pretty much any bend you want on the edge of the anvil. You can grind a radius over one side of the block if you need a built in fuller similar to a horn. A vise is another must have tool and bending tools can easily be held in a vise. Thank you for watching.
Very informative and as another has commented earlier, the physics is dead on. I always loved science so this rings true especially for myself. That diagram of the traditionally shaped anvil just clicks when I visualize that rectangular block of solid mass directly under the hammer strike zone through the face, body, waist and base of the anvil. Great stuff!
That is awesome. I use a 6" x 6" x 16" block of steel and I don't know any better it works fine for my abilities (which are pretty limited) Thank you for your time making this video! Mike👍😁🇨🇦
I actually used an 8" section of Railroad track to make a die and a 3' section of 12" round shafting to make the anvil for my friends Power hammer using a very similar method to what you just did. Overall cost was about $70 and he's been using the same set up for over 25 years
Thanks for the straight talking vid. Anyone that can't appreciate straight common sense advice like that shouldn't be taking up a trade that has been built on it.
Good video, I use a Vertical rail atm. been watching for a block of steel, fork lift tine, whatever i can. wanting to get a striking anvil. But since i'm just starting out i'm not worried about it.
thank you sir. still learning the craft and it´s a pleasure to listen to someone making sense of what he´s saying. i´m reading some of your replies and i hope you are doing fine now, thanks again for sharing your knowledge. peter
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I do hope to get started on the videos again but that is several months away. I have been a smith for over 50 years and have been teaching for close to 30. All too often people just starting out get hung up on getting tools that look like what they expect while ignoring the function and finding ways to spend less while still getting the job done :D
Thanks for the tips! I have a big chunk of 6" x 7" steel that I am making into an anvil. I will then hard face the top with hardfacing welding wire. Hope it works out!
Good luck. Give it a try without the hard-faced. I think you might be surprised that you don't need to do all that extra work. Remember, as long as the steel block is harder than the metal being worked, it is the worked metal that moves, not the block.
Now in 2023, you have great cheap anvils from cast tool steel, like the new doyle 65lb cast steel anvil or the velvor 132lb cast steel anvil for cheap about $2.30 a pound. Both these are hardened over 50 Rockwell. I've used everything over the years like rr track on end, 4140 6 inch rounds .but now anvils are relatively cheap and good. Finally,
They are indeed interesting but I am not very impressed. I know the Doyle is all the "rage" in the low price starter anvil market but I am not very impressed. I don't like the way it is designed and long term use is still an unknown. I am not saying do not buy one however for ME I am not impressed YMMV! :D
@@mikemullenix6956 Glad you are happy, enjoy. I still don't like the design with the open belly. I have nothing against cast steel, though they are a bit light for any real work. They are OK for light things like blades that everyone is so keen to make now a days. I have a five year old, 380# Refflinghaus No 9 as well as several American made anvils from 100 to 250#, Trenton and Arm and Hammer. All are fine anvils. I have been smithing over 50 years and have taught for nearly 30. I have seen lots of garbage from HF and some SoSo better items. I still stand behind the video 100%. Enjoy what you have. It isn't the tool but the smith that does the work. However better tools make the job of producing the work easier.
@@wayneparris3439 I'm going to use them in the outside back yard . But I will probably put a horse stall over it just to get out of the sunlight and rain.. but I will cover them up with tarp and treat them with some of that rust conditioner converter stuff
Thankyou sir! Someone finally said it how it is - sweet and simple - thankyou! I will be completely reassessing my first anvil requirements. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Your welcome. As an old fart, I have been at this over 50 years since I first struck hot metal in 1969 in the 7th grade, back when there were real shop classes in school. I have tried a whole lot of work around and substituted things for use as an anvil before I acquired the anvils I have now. Sold mass under the hammer in the ballpark 100 pound range will do most anything you want to do. Find and join a blacksmith group near you and your skills will grow much quicker with the aid of someone giving hands on help. Your state may have a group and you can look for a chapter of ABANA .. artist blacksmith association, north America. Welcome to the trade, it is so rewarding to make things with your own hands!
This content is perfect. I realy enjoyed the aspect and appreciated the throwing the crap you don't realy need. I agree totally withal you have said considering most seels now adays are similar or better than some of the anvils of the early days. like you mentioned....Sincerely, Martin at M&S Blades and Blacksmihing
Tthank you. You saw it for what it is, a very basic way to get into smithing. For the most part I leave comments up regardless of viewpoint, I have only removed one that was a personal attack on me, it takes all kinds LOL
Thanks for taking the time to make the video. Sound wasn't great but I could hear it fine. Even if I couldn't I would still get the point. COMMON SENSE.
You're welcome. A simple block will get you started. In the future you may want to get a "REAL" (notice the quotes) anvil a simple block of steel will serve you well for a while. There is a current trend in the smithing community to make "striking anvils" which are very similar to a block that I show in this video. Most often they are used for heavier work where there may be the possibility of damaging a lighter anvil. The. tools that have developed on the modern anvil such as the horn and the hardy and pritchel holes are handy to have but are not mandatory for daily use as there are other ways to get those features. Find a good local smithing group and learn with them. There are some good instructional videos on UA-cam but there are a whole lot of bad videos too. Good luck!
Thanks, there is so much bad info out there sometimes I feel like a fish swimming up a dry creek LOL. I know it has been quite a while since this posted. Since then I have moved 2,800 miles across country and need to build a new shop. It cost a WHOLE lot of money to move the shop cross country but it was worth every penny to leave Ca.
Thanks for the video and advise, why don't more people use plain old common horse since anymore. I have one of those I made many years ago and still use it today. I sold my factory made 90 pound anvil, the block works so much better with much less ring.
I am not a blacksmith, but my rail anvil cost me zero $ and works good enough to shape my horseshoes and all other work I use it for. My thought is why spend money when steal is laying around almost every where, in most cases all one needs to do is ask. Thank you for your thoughts.
Congrats. If it does what you need, then it does. For all the same reasons in the video, a solid block would be more effective but, if you are happy, go for it.
Apart from learning what all I really need to make an anvil to get started, there's one other important thing I learned: do not mess with Wayne. Anybody that can flip heavy iron and steel around like it's styrofoam is NOT someone you want to get on the bad side of. You remind me of my Dad back in the day. Keep up the good work teaching/schooling those of us who don't know any better. I'm sorry you have to deal with idiots sometimes but I do appreciate that you took the time to help us out that actually want to learn!
Hi Wayne, Thanks for the email, very interesting piece. And thank you again, after viewing your video I will be going to the steel stockist and buying a large block of steel to start me off. Keep up the good work my friend. Kind Regards Steve Silverwood UK
Thank you! I've been searching for answers on this topic and you answered them as well as ones I didn't know I had. Much appreciated, thank you for teaching me something useful.
No problem! Wherever you are located, look for a local blacksmithing group. There are many more people involved in smithing than one may think. You might start with abana.org/affiliates/affiliate-map-list/#!directory/map
I guess I need to make a video on that as well. You simply can use sections of angle iron screwed into the stump/block so as to prevent the anvil block from sliding around.
Doug Crowhurst Thank YOU! seek out forging organizations around you. Use the internet. While there is some good information on UA-cam, most of the videos range from sort of OK to outright fantasy by self taught "experts" who have learned all they know from watching other equally bad videos. A good buddy and I just spent a week demonstrating blacksmithing at Yosemite national park for the visitors. At night we would go back to the cabin and watch bad smithing videos for entertainment. The level of misinformation out there is astounding. Nothing is as good as becoming involved with a local group and getting hands on instruction. Good luck!
Thanks so much for explaining the logic. I’ll have to find a scrap yard which can be a challenge to find one in the UK these days. Thanks again- you have earned yourself a subscriber 😀
I found some spring steel 2-1/4" x 12" wide 3 foot long and boy it is great to hammer on and rings beautiful. It doesn't look no heck but it really works nicely. There is no substitute for mass.
Thank you kind sir, very informative. I'm making a truck break drum forge, and had a free train track anvil that I made a while back, might look for a chunk of steel instead. I'm thinking of turning a splitting maul that I found into a sledge hammer as well.
lebomm johnson Haha, yep, lazy man's hammer. Just round off the business end and put a handle on it. I might attempt to cut out the sides a bit if it's too heavy - not sure how just yet.
THANKS FOR THE VIDEO IT,S GREAT I,M A SHEETMETAL AND HAVE BEEN FOR OVER THIRTY FIVE YEARS WORKING WITH COPPER DOING ROOFING METAL WORK .WHEN IN THE FIELD WE WOULD HAVE TO DRAW OUR SOLDERING IRON OUT TO A POINT AND ALOT OF MEN FOUND IT TOUGH TO DO IN THE FIELD .SO MY SOLUTION WAS TO GET A PIECE OF FLAT STEEL THAT WAS VERY HARD FROM THE IRONWORKERS ,AND IT WORKS VERY WELL FOR ME.
Lol I have been wanting to build a railroad anvil, I do have a 10”x8”x4” tool Steel and I use it all the time. Thanks for the heads up on the imposters lol I did learn a lot from you video
Thank you for the no-nonsense video! If down the road, one found a need for a harder face, would it be very hard to forge weld a hard face on? Or perhaps a simple case hardening on the end with charcoal paste encased in clay and brought to critical for an hour or two?
Think of this as a tool to "get you going" and not as a life time tool. That puts a little better perspective on things. Yes if there is enough carbon in the steel it can be hardened. There are commercial chemicals such as "cherry red" or similar that will add carbon much better than home brew. Forge welding a hard plate on is a possibility but by the time you gain the skills to do it, you likely will have a more commercial anvil anyway but yes it is possible. Arc welding hard facing rod will do it also but it is an expensive way to go and you will go through a lot of pounds of rod and many many grinding wheels before you are done. Honestly having the face soft isn't a big deal. I have a 250 # Trenton anvil that I suspect has been through a fire because the face is dead soft. It would be expensive to have it hardened commercially even if I could find a place to do it. Honestly, I have used that anvil for about 20 years and only needed to repair the face twice. I use it quite a bit but when students do their worst, ... LOL. Missed hammer blows does the most damage, simply striking hot steel really does not do much at all.
wayne parris I was thinking simple case hardening by encasing the face in charcoal paste and clay, sitting in a pot forge upside down, let it soak at critical for about an hour and quenching. I do agree that a soft face isn't a big deal, but this could be a simple upgrade. At least a fun learning project.
Nothing says you can't but my personal view is that the work is more than the return on the energy spent. If you want to do it, go for it. I strongly suspect you will get a better result with a commercial compound vs charcoal etc. An old sKool method of hardening parts was to put them in a sealed box with charred leather and let soak at temp. While good 150 years ago and for small parts, we have modern ways that give much better results.
The second I saw your video my one question was answered do I have to spend so much on an anvil?! I was getting overwhelmed by all the other videos thanks alot for being so clear
Yep! Great advice! Then you can spend your money on your forge/stakes and a swage block as you advance. In fact the oldest anvils were simply blocks of iron.
First off wonderful info I'm sorry to hear people rejecting such constructive criticism. Second I Honestly want a hardy hole and I want something like a horn; especially after watching someone elongate a piece of steel super quick utilizing the horn. I will be doing alot of square nails and processing alot of RR spikes as they are about 30 per 20 yards here! I have planned a bunch simple tasks to start with as I already have a complimentary source of income for those projects (a 661 STHL chainsaw swinging a 36" bar and a garage full of bur oak slabs with blue stain from nails). What would you suggest for an addition of a hardy hole and a horn... maybe a piece of round stock? It seems you just need a rounded edge to speed up the process of elongating? But the hardy hole? Cutting torch? I have a 211 MIG, a oxy/acetylene torch, a grinding wheel/ wire wheel, no side grinder yet (I know right? How did I make it this far 😂) and I have a respectable drill press. Help me out captain! I'd wing it but I can't afford to dick things up too bad
A radius ground into the block, even a 1/4 inch R is more than enough to draw stock over, the sharper the R the faster the drawing. You also do not use a horn to bend over as it mainly a support not a bending form, most of the time you use the side of the anvil for bending so there is no real down side there either. A good vise will hold any tool that would fit into a hardy hole and a bolster is all you need for sub on a pritchel hole. A post vise is designed for hammering on and bench vises being cast, are more likely to break under hammer blows. You could always go through the trouble to grind a R over one side of the block to resemble a horn and yes drill a hole then file it square if you really want a hardy hole but honestly, I have been smithing for 50 years and while having the horn and holes in the anvil are handy, it is not a huge thing to just sub a vise for that purpose. Yes a round bar in the vise makes a good sub for a horn.
@@cronkthecrunk Hey, it is yours, configure as you wish. Honestly, a slight Rad on one edge is all you need but if you want to round over one end, go for it. A few inches is all you need. If you want to add in a hardy, well go for that too. I would drill intersecting holes, one from the top and another from the side or end. Enjoy!
I think the physics of what you are saying is dead on. I went to the scrap yard today and bought a 500 lb steel bulldozer weight for $185 - it is 36" long and has all that mass right under the 8"x10" flat on the end, also a nice curved radius just off the edge. No stand to build settled into the ground and welded to and anchor bolt. I know you don't need to hear it but great points made. Just finished my vertical forge and plan to get to work and grow my tools after growing my skills.
Go the the scrap yard - I saw several other great options - one could have easily bought 200 lbs for half the money and still had a great option
Well that should work out just fine! ENJOY!!
Thanks :D
@@wayneparris3439 in the spirit of full disclosure - as I was cleaning up the flat end - I found a couple deep (3-4 mm) inclusions - remembering this was manufactured for weight not perfect steel - it took me a couple of hours to grind them out and the surface flat again. Now it looks good.
question: I was planning on heat treating with my Ox/Ac torch - with a few cycles og heating and allowing to cool slowly to room temperature - thoughts on my plan?
@@rickschultz1141 Well, it is going to take a LOT of heat, much more than a cutting torch will provide. I would just mount it so it does not move and go to work! Really my 250 pound main anvil has a soft face and it is not a problem at all. Actually the bigger the anvil the harder it is to harden them and it is very common for larger anvils to have softer faces. Remember the red hot metal is much softer than your weight is so the project will move and the weight will laugh it off.
Where would you get a chunk of steel like that and what's the cost?
@@michaelclark2857 The steal store. And if you have to ask the price then it's to much.
Finally, a man who understands basic physics. Remember that the most commonly used anvil around the world is a 12-16 pound sledgehammer head turned on its end. So increasing the mass as you have shown increases the "equal and opposing reaction." Yes, it's just basic physics. I'm glad you took the time to show it in such fine detail.
Those are incredibly dangerous. A sledge hammer face is often a hardened steel, pounding on a hardened steel surface like a hammer (much harder then what a normal anvil is) around a typical anvil height will lead to a shrapnel bomb exploding right around the height of your sensitive areas.
What this guy is recommending is essentially safe, because the steel he suggests using is in an annealed condition. Annealed low to medium carbon steel will deform rather then shatter.
To Wesley M: Respectfully, your assessment is inaccurate. A sledgehammer head could just as easily be tossed into a fire and annealed. But that would defeat the purpose. While striking a hardened steel surface against a hardened steel surface is not a good idea, the object is to strike red/orange hot steel (read soft) so there is no striking of hammer against anvil (sledgehammer head). Your scenario makes no more sense than to pound any anvil with a hammer with no malleable hot steel between the two. I refer you to my original comment: The sledgehammer head is the most common type anvil used worldwide, particularly by village blacksmiths. When used properly it is no more dangerous than any anvil.
For the people complaining in the comments about your style teaching...
There is nothing forcing them to watch.
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
I'm a beginner to blacksmithing, and after watching this video, I have some scrap I never realized would be more effective than the solution I had to the anvil question previously. Thanks for the video, man.
Your welcome! Solid steel will get the job done. Lump charcoal works well in a forge, it was the fuel for centuries before coal. Just don't use pressed sawdust bricketts, most used in a BBQ, there is no heat in them.
About 10 years ago I bought a piece of 4140 toll steel from ebay. It was round piece about 5 inches in diameter and about 1 foot long. I searched my local scrap yards and they had nothing. It still only cost me about 80 bucks but I didn't have to spent 30 bucks driving into town. The steel was completely annealed and far too soft with little rebound. So I built a quick ground forge and heated the top half a few degrees passed non magnetic and filled a 55 gal drum with a brine made with pool salt and water. I just kept adding salt until a potato would float. I got board to stir the water with and get it swirling. I had welded a big T handle on the bottom end of the anvil so I had a way to grab it. When it was good and glowing orange I quenched it in that swirling brine. It hissed at me for probably 5 minutes. I'm glad I had safety glasses on because I got a nice salty steam session. LOL.
After quenching I had to wait a full day for it to cool off enough to handle. The quench worked!!! The anvil was super hard. Too hard to use but that was OK. The quenching gave it a small crack on one edge about 2 inches long. No big deal. I thought about welding it and sanding it smooth but I didn't want to mess with my heat treat/temper. So I baked it in my oven at 300 degrees for two hours. Waited another day for it to cool in my shop and tested it. Took all the brittleness out and that thing rebounds like an anvil costing thousands of dollars.
Next I built a base. I could have just concreted it in a bucket and called it good but instead I went to a steel yard and bought a pipe big enough to fit the anvil inside and a round piece of steel for the base. I welded the pipe to the base and filled the pipe with pea gravel. That allowed me to drop my anvil in and set the height perfect for me by adding or taking away gravel. Once it was perfect, I rant 3 small wooded wedges between the top of the pipe and the anvil to lock it in. I had some scrap steel square pipe that I cut up and welded around the pipe to hold tongs and hammers. Painted everything with black engine enamel paint except for the face of the anvil which I keep oiled.
All in all, I have about $120 into a kick @ss anvil. A few other advantages to this anvil. I don't have a huge shop so the footprint of this anvil is much smaller than a normal anvil. It hits like a 300 lb anvil because of all the mass directly underneath and has excellent rebound. Very similar in function to a Robin Anvil if you are familiar with those. Lastly, the funny thing is I bought a cheap welder to for this build, figuring it would come in handy. This started my side business as a welder, fabricator.
10 yrs later, my shop is dedicated to welding. I run mig in my shop and a Miller Trailblazer on my Truck. I've got a Hypertherm plasma cutter, an Avani fume extractor. A huge Gantry Crain I build that lifts 3 tons. I even built a huge road roller that I bull behind with my tractor to put roads in for customers. Funny how one hobby leads you into another. For anyone needing a decent cheap stick welder, you can get an AHP 160 amp, DC welder with dual voltage for about $200 and it has an impressive 60% duty cycle. Highly recommended. I will tell you once you get into a Trailblazer you are looking at $7,000 - $8,000 but it can pay for it self in two or three jobs easy. I hope this helps anyone interested in getting a rockin anvil for cheap.
Thanks! Just today I bought a chunk of steel from a steel source and now I know to put it on end and get the meat of her vertical. Thanks again.
I have been using a portion of a forklift tine as my anvil for 2 years, I was using it flat, not alot of mass under the hammer. Then I found a chunk of mild steel 6x6x12 but odd shaped and has a 2 1/2 inch hole in it. Alot more mass and seems easier on a injured wrist and fore arm I have. I use pieces of round stock of various diameters when I need to curve or radius my material. So I have located some mild pieces that I will use for a waist under the tine and will weld it solid all the way round to make it one piece- using a spacer and welding from the inside out. And I intend on making a horn to use for shaping when I need it. I know its opposite of what you said. But I got my welding rods for free and I have the time to do it. I enjoyed this video very much, thank you for making it.
Thank you for a good, informative video. In the UK a lot of farriers have a rail track section shaped into an anvil for final shaping of shoes, obviously, for this purpose a piece of track makes sense because it is lighter and compact enough to fit in a truck and a lot of fixed mass is not necessary. I think this is where a lot of people get the idea for a track anvil from seeing farriers use them but don't realise the requirements and product are different.
Thank you for speaking sense amidst so much ignorance on this topic. Make more videos please you seem to have the right ideas.
Perfect no nonsense, common sense approach. I was seriously considering purchasing some railroad track too. Thanks for the save!
Your welcome! To get started, this is all you need. Yes with a horn, heal, pritchel and hardy holes more functions are combined into one tool but there are other ways to get those functions. Good luck!
I love the creativity and determination of folks to improvise and just make it work. Yeah a big expensive anvil is nice but a lot of love goes in to working with what you have for now. Cheers all and "Hammer ON!"
Right on! Thank you for putting the truth out here! My anvil is very similar to this. I also run into people that think they know what they talk about, but they are only running with junk they see. My forge is a box of dirt and clay like they used in logging camps in the 1700's. It is good to know history in this field!
Good video. I started with nothing but a 50lbs cast iron anvil and later got a pair of HF cast steel Russian anvils for I think 100$ each. Finally after 20 years I got a Refflinghause anvil and wish I'd gotten one sooner. That said it was a hard decision to pay that much, but not one I've regretted. I've also built a couple of post anvils and such. For bladesmithing you can get by a lot easier than blacksmithing. A friend of mine managed to get a large, 3" thick fork lift tine and made several bladesmith anvils from it. I've also seen several anvils made from a rectangular block of steel with different radius added to simulate a horn. Wayne Goddard has several articles on home made anvils in his books which are worth a look. All that said, it's hard to beat a quality anvil, but with old ones getting hard to find and new ones expensive, it's a big investment.
You know what I like that Sr!! As a Farmer I need solid peace of still or anvil and watching this just has made my Mined up!
Thank you.
I love the farmer "get it done" mind set! My wife is from a long line of farmers and her youngest brother is still running the family farm! Good luck :D
wayne parris Thank You Sir!
thank you for your knowledge. i've always wondered if there was a draw back to all those anvils that i've seen with a welded on piece of plate at the top. NOW i have that answer. and a definitive and understandable explanation as to WHY it is bad.
THANK YOU sir!
Your welcome :D A hard face welded to an anvil... when 100% solid and no air gaps, will help but with a gap, you are not getting the energy return you should have.
I like this guys style, old school common sense and experience. What he has said and showed rings true for the whole YT community. Realising that the tube is full of trends, know it alls and charlatans will get you off to a very good start here. We need more folks like this guy to call them on their mistakes and down right horseshit and it's plain to see the man is correct. Not one logical retort from those in the wrong, speaks volumes for sure.
I just saw this, thanks.
Definitely makes sense. I have a piece of mainline track that I have given it the anvil shape and I've noticed when I use my friends anvils the metal moves faster and for some reason more controlled guess that the vibration in the track more of deflection I guess you would say. I've been searching for months for a anvil I could afford but now I think I'm going to search for a block of steel and see how that works. thanks for the video.
Any block, from a scrap yard, steel yard, large machinery or heavy equipment dealer etc, will work. Just make sure it is steel and not cast iron. Good luck!
Thanks Wayne. As a retired guy looking to learn how to forge some small projects this is real helpful. I appreciate you guys with a lifetime of experience taking the time to make a video to pass on a little knowledge.
Thank you, I do intend to make more but I had an accident and my left arm is not able to handle swinging a hammer at the moment which is the pits when you are left handed LOL :D Getting old is not for sissies :P
I agree - its all about what is under the hammer, your typical london pattern anvil is great for tooling around, but probably has less than half its mass under the sweet spot.
I have a 150 x 150mm x 200mm high block of mild steel that weighs about 30kg and a small 20kg london pattern anvil with a hardened face. I do most of the heavy hitting on the mild steel block, the London pattern anvil I mostly use the horn and the hardie. It is slightly taller than the mild steel block, and has a lot more rebound, but I dont think the steel moves as well on it.
I do use rail track a bit, but I have it loose, I lay it on its side on my heavy steel work bench giving access to the side radius on the rail to work small stock around, it works great for that.
Clearly you have struck some hot metal! Without a doubt other shapes are great in the shop. My goal was to help new people understand the qualities of a working anvil and the easiest way to get started. Most do not even think of mass under the hammer and concentrate on the shape. It is nice to hear from you. Sorry about the audio, things are still a work in progress. Get it hot and hit it hard!
This is a good video on the subject of what constitutes a suitable blacksmithing anvil. I agree with a lot of what this gentleman says.
Loved the video, it was very informative. I wish I would have seen it years ago before I spent $600 on an anvil. The only thing about the video is I wish the sound was not so bad. I think everyone interested in blacksmithing should see this video...keep up the good work.
Thank you, yes I do understand the audio issues and I am working to do better. Thanks for sticking with it. There is nothing wrong with a "real" anvil, I have 5 of them from 100# to 250#. Many people get hung up on a horn, heal and holes when most of your forging never uses them. Enjoy your anvil and go out to the shop and put it to use!
Thanks for the informative video. After 30 years with power tools and shooting for even longer, I didn't notice any problems with the sound either until I read all of the comments whining about it.
Good job
Makes sense. I use any thing that will allow me to hand cold bend soft steel and a table vice for small pieces. I use acetylene to weld into place. Forging is a future attempt. My point is, as you said, there is no needed to purchase the perfect tool to get a job done. I don't have an anvil. Finding a block of steel would be useful.
Nice video. I do have a piece of track I use mostly for the horn I cut into it. My go to "anvil" is an 80lb block of pig iron that I found in a dumpster. It has worked great for everything I've asked of it. Everything up to 1" round bar has moved well for me on it. Great job.
Thank you
Iron will work, steel works better, what counts is that YOU are out there working :D
I've watched a couple of the railway track anvil making videos and wondered why they went through all the trouble shaping and polishing. I tried one once and it didn't feel right - now I know why. Thanks for the insight! I have been using a 3 foot section of rail, standing on end, for years. I welded a couple of 4 inch angles to the bottom and mounted it on a hardwood stump - it works fine for the home projects that I do.
and by the way, most people search for an excuse not to do certain things, instead of simply taking the easiest possible thing and using it, i needed to mill a keyway, but i didnt have a mill, so i rigged up my dremel tool to some aluminium profiles, put an xy-table under it and there you go. certainly not as precise as a bridgeport, but if you dont have one, its better than no keyway.
same goes for anvils and other tools, sure there are some tools that are neccesary but most operations in fabricating something can be rigged up by utilizing stuff that tumbles around your garage! :)
this is good information. i would take it even one step farther though. for example, when i first started forging, i used a flywheel from an old f150 bolted to a stump as my first anvil. it was dead as a doornail and I loat a lot of energy, bit for someone just getting started, i had a hard flat surface and an edge to work as well and it was basically free. anything you can hammer on and use to manipulate metal is a good starter anvil. no sense wasting money on junk anvils and railroad track because it is not much if any better than a much cheaper option for a beginner.
Then if or when you decide to get serious about it, spend the money on a proper anvil to get the most out of your swing. i personally bought a 300 lb fisher and i love how quiet it is and despite being 120 years old still gives me 75% rebound which for an amateur like me is great.
thanks again for the video. the info is really useful for us new guys
Thank you. Yes, mass is mass. Steel has better return for your energy than cast iron but the important thing is to get out there and start forging! "real" anvils are nice too, I have 5 but to get started, a good block of steel will get you going and down the road.
nice, i had access to a cylinder shape piece of Steel flat on both ends it works just as well after I polished it. few people laughed at me for having that for an anvil but it works and it was free
I agree with you on this, however, I am making a rail anvil anyway because I have the time and I think it looks great when done right. Maybe not as effective but fun to make for sure. I am also not a blacksmith, just make small blades for fun. Good video.
Your time, tools and material, good luck! Most of all get out there and hit some hot metal!
Thank you. I watch UA-cam on my tv and never get on my computer just to comment. I will for your video however because my wife is much more willing to let me start blacksmithing now that she knows that I don't have to break our bank to get started. I have been woodworking since I was 9, and am ready learn something new at 35. So again thank you!!!
Glad to help! Be careful though, hot metal is addictive and soon the tools start to breed in the shop when you go into the house at night. Find a good association and get some instruction from people who know what they are doing and can work with you and guide you. ABANA (Artist Blacksmith Assoc of North America) is the umbrella group for many of the state associations and is a good place to start looking for local instruction. There is some good info on UA-cam but the "make it up as I go" instruction videos FAR out number the good stuff! Good luck!!
Great informational video. Now that this is a popular hobby, supplies have become expensive. This kind of information makes the hobby more accessible for beginners! Thank you 👍
Your welcome. I see people all the time spend money in the wrong place. It is expensive enough to get into smithing but it is possible to do it on a reasonable budget if you think outside the box. This will get you going, eventually you will run across a "real" anvil and likely as not will buy it. That is fine, now you have 2 LOL
Thank you so much for this very informative video . I'm just starting out blacksmithing , and I don't want to pay a lot right outta the gate. I have a 2' section of railroad iron and a terribly messed up 42 lb. cast iron anvil. I didn't want to use either one so thanks to you I don't have to . I live approx. 20 miles from a steel yard and THAT is where I will pick up my first "Square" anvil. Thank you and I hope you keep this sort of video coming because I am now a subscriber.
george gavin Thank you. I will post more as I can get to them.
This is exactly what I use. I have two configurations, one just like you show, and one that has three profiles on it's face. The first radii is very aggressive, 1" the 2nd is approximately 2.5 in and the 3rd is about 20'. I don't think I'll ever use anything else.
I'm not a blacksmith, but from time/time, I need a striking plate...your information is valuable...very informative... a great segment...Thank You, Uncle Black
thank you so much for your video it is very informative, and I do love when people break the barriers of common thought to reveal a simple answer to a question that never needed to be complicated.
Good to know. I now have an anvil. Very informative. Thanks.
Nice to hear, go out there and get it hot and hit it hard!
I really like the way you get right down to the basics. I'm new to forging and you taught me more in this short video than hours and hours of BS I've been reading and watching here on YT. So I would like to thank you for your straight shooting. I learned a lot.
Thank you, that was the goal.
Good video- The traditional medieval anvil was very much like you describe: a block of iron about that size mounted on a wood post. My post anvil is 4" x 5" by about 6". Weld angle iron on each side, drill holes, use lag bolts and screw it to the wood post. But, I also have a Trenton (one of the last ones built after WWII, I think) that was welded at the factory, as you mention. People ask me, "who could ever break an anvil and then weld it back together?" LOL!! A post anvil-block of steel is fine, if that is all you can afford, but if you have a chance to get an old anvil at a reasonable price don't pass it up. You will never regret it! I love that old Trenton; the ring and the bounce are incredible. It will be my life long companion!!
yes, I have to agree, if you can get an anvil of conventional design, do it but not at the price most "collectors" are demanding. Reasonable priced anvils ARE out there but it takes some digging. Trentons seem to fine me, I have 3 of them and an Arm and Hammer (NO not Vulcan) One small Trenton I have a prior owner sometime in the past tried to grind away any trace of the weld, I am guessing to try to hide the "repair" and increase value.. dip wadds. LOL The whole point of this video is to get people out there and hitting hot metal rather than spending a bunch of time and money making things that will be substandard anyway.
Yes! Finally a pro who dumbs it down to the basics! All one needs is a surface large enough to work on & harder than hot steel. And for a beginning smith with little experience & hobbyist-level projects, a nice hunk of steel is right where ya wanna be. As for a Hardie hole, skip it. Make your tools (including a small "horn") that'll go into your vice. (BTW, you should have a vice.) The vice does exactly what a Hardie hole does, nothing less, & perhaps even better; it keeps your tools from bouncing around when you're banging away. Keep it simple. Men of old forged weapons of war on far less than what we know as modern anvils.
Although I do not disagree and have collected quite a few, vice's especially big old ones have a hidden problem. They always seem to be not quite right for my current bench, and I am starting to need a separate shop just to store the benches I make.
I’ve been forging on a rail cut to the shape of an anvil for the last five years, and I can tell you with certainty that you’re…. Right. Mostly. My little guy is pretty good if you’re not forging stock larger than 1 inch. Trouble with me is where I live I can’t find a scrap yard that will let me walk in and poke around, and old ladies selling Peter wright anvils on Craigslist for $100 has been over for a long time around here. So I built a hydraulic forge press instead. Yeah, I feel like a cheater, but I’m also not spending a week trying to forge a single pattern welded knife anymore.
People want a hundred bucks or more for rusty old railroad track "anvils" now; it's kind of hilarious.
Japanese traditional anvils are just that, a block of steel. Period. Look what they did with those for the last 3000 + years.
Samu-freaking-raise up yours sword, and they're good too lol
Good perspective. I use a 250 pound Hay Budden, and I use the horn, pritchel and Hardy a lot, but I can certainly appreciate the utility of a block with multiple radii like that. And if you machine some swages into the sides... I think Glen (GS Tongs) has shown how incredibly well this system works.
Yes, horn and heal are useful to have but I directed this to someone just starting, being held back from starting smithing by the lack of a "traditional " anvil. You may have surmised I have other anvils and my 250# Trenton is center stage in the shop.
Thank you Mr. Wayne for the best lesson on the perfect shape for a homemade anvil.
Really is this best way for harnessing energy from the hammer.
You are absolutely correct. The best anvil for general purpose work would be a block of steel. Look at any power hammer, the anvil on just about all of them is a simple block of steel. Now if one has to do round bends or scroll work and accurate hot cutting one would need an anvil with a horn and hardy hole. The plain steel block still makes a better general purpose anvil and is in fact better for blade smiting. A rail can be used to make an anvil, but for light work and if the horn is made long and round possibly for tin. I myself would never weld a plate to the top of an anvil, I don't have a forge big enough to heat the anvil to welding temperature and minions (fellow smiths!) to forge weld the plate on with sledges, not counting getting it in and out of the forge and heat treating it after.
What you presented here definitely RINGS true. LOL These guys are paying 6 to 10 dollars a pound for Anvils. It's crazy. I got lucky and had one given to me, but still use a chunk like you have here just as much.
I only use the anvil for its hardy hole and pritchel hole.
Sounds logical to me. Don't worry about the trolls and to argue reason with the unreasonable is a good source of frustration and headaches.
Thanks and no, I don't let trolls get to me. If someone seems to really need or want more information though, I am more than happy to reply :D
אחד השיעורים המאלפים והחשובים לניתוח פיזיקלי של סדנים. הוכחה אנליטית מדוע סדן רלס הרכבת איננו אלא מיתוס. 🌿🌿🌿
Thanks a lot for that. I've made do without a proper anvil for years always meaning to make one but you just saved me an awful lot of work.
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! For your common sense explanation. Don’t need an anvil shaped object.
Thanks so much man! Only had to call two Local steel suppliers to get a chunk! Should be ready to to start blacksmithing in the fall
How much did a block like that cost???
Thanks for the video. Very informative and quite relieving actually. My 12 year old boy is always throwing horseshoes and other metal in the fire to get them red hot so I figure maybe I should feed his curiosity by trying a bit of shaping of the red hot metal hes making :) This makes it pretty simple and cheap to see if he'd like to go down the smithing hobby road. Thanks again!
Nat TheProjectGuy thank you. The art of smithing and in the bigger picture, forging is alive and doing well. You don't say where you are from but do a search for a local to you smithing group. The return in information will be well worth the effort. ABANA is the over arching organization and every state has their own group. Good luck!
I found a 100 lb block of steel at the scrap yard today. 5" square x 13" long. I paid about $25 for it.
Set it in my stump on end and am waiting for silicone (mounting solution recessed into stump) to cure. Even being mild steel, it has plenty of rebound for my needs. A major upgrade to my fabricated anvil that I made from laminated 1"x3" flat bar.
Thanks, great advice, by the way Glen at GS Tongs uses a beautiful square anvil with a hardy hole and produces amazing work.
Thanks you so much for posting this. I want to get my feet wet with basic blacksmithing and this is what I needed. I have already seen how to make a horn and attach a tail part with a hardy hole after the fact but as you stated it needs to welded all the way from the center to the edge. I plan to do this in stages. I plan to post this on my own channel in some time.
You can weld them on if you wish but a vise will hold a mandrel to use as a horn and it will also hold any tool that a hardy would hold.
Very true. I am still looking for a ASO I am going to visit my local metal recycler to see if I can find a large chunk of steel to use.
Priced a "good" vise lately? lol
For a black smith vise they run about 145 used to 300.
Found a wood splitting wedge at a local 2nd hand shop; needs to have the end ground and flattened. Then, with some stand to hold it, I'll have a shop utility anvil for moments when I need to smack on something.
Videos like this are great. Gives you pre knowledge and ideas of what questions to ask during a class.
Good video Wayne, you're right that's all you really need but a horn or some other tools for doing bends etc. Come in handy. If you haven't seen Glen's anvils from GS Tongs take a look they're based on the principals you just mentioned.
You are correct there isn't a horn and that was kind of the point, most all your bends can be done right on the face. A horn is handy for supporting your work but is not mandatory for bending, good technique and hammer control will give you pretty much any bend you want on the edge of the anvil. You can grind a radius over one side of the block if you need a built in fuller similar to a horn. A vise is another must have tool and bending tools can easily be held in a vise. Thank you for watching.
Think you know and understand what you're talking about,a very intelligent matter of fact person best wishes to you always God bless
Very informative and as another has commented earlier, the physics is dead on. I always loved science so this rings true especially for myself. That diagram of the traditionally shaped anvil just clicks when I visualize that rectangular block of solid mass directly under the hammer strike zone through the face, body, waist and base of the anvil. Great stuff!
That is awesome. I use a 6" x 6" x 16" block of steel and I don't know any better it works fine for my abilities (which are pretty limited)
Thank you for your time making this video!
Mike👍😁🇨🇦
I actually used an 8" section of Railroad track to make a die and a 3' section of 12" round shafting to make the anvil for my friends Power hammer using a very similar method to what you just did. Overall cost was about $70 and he's been using the same set up for over 25 years
Thanks for the straight talking vid. Anyone that can't appreciate straight common sense advice like that shouldn't be taking up a trade that has been built on it.
Thank you.
Good video, I use a Vertical rail atm. been watching for a block of steel, fork lift tine, whatever i can. wanting to get a striking anvil. But since i'm just starting out i'm not worried about it.
This was exactly what i suspected, but needed to hear. Thanks dude.
thank you sir. still learning the craft and it´s a pleasure to listen to someone making sense of what he´s saying. i´m reading some of your replies and i hope you are doing fine now, thanks again for sharing your knowledge. peter
Thank you for taking the time to comment. I do hope to get started on the videos again but that is several months away. I have been a smith for over 50 years and have been teaching for close to 30. All too often people just starting out get hung up on getting tools that look like what they expect while ignoring the function and finding ways to spend less while still getting the job done :D
@@wayneparris3439 i'm subscribed so when you upload i'll be watching. thanks for your reply.
Thanks for the tips! I have a big chunk of 6" x 7" steel that I am making into an anvil. I will then hard face the top with hardfacing welding wire. Hope it works out!
Good luck. Give it a try without the hard-faced. I think you might be surprised that you don't need to do all that extra work. Remember, as long as the steel block is harder than the metal being worked, it is the worked metal that moves, not the block.
Great practical advice, I was looking into a rail style anvil. You changed my mind!
Makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks.
That makes a lot of sense. Thinking about the physics of how it really functions.
Now in 2023, you have great cheap anvils from cast tool steel, like the new doyle 65lb cast steel anvil or the velvor 132lb cast steel anvil for cheap about $2.30 a pound. Both these are hardened over 50 Rockwell. I've used everything over the years like rr track on end, 4140 6 inch rounds .but now anvils are relatively cheap and good. Finally,
They are indeed interesting but I am not very impressed. I know the Doyle is all the "rage" in the low price starter anvil market but I am not very impressed. I don't like the way it is designed and long term use is still an unknown. I am not saying do not buy one however for ME I am not impressed YMMV! :D
@@wayneparris3439 I bought both and each one has over 80% rebound using the 52000 series ball bearing drop. Cast tool steel and no casting flaws
@@mikemullenix6956 Glad you are happy, enjoy. I still don't like the design with the open belly. I have nothing against cast steel, though they are a bit light for any real work. They are OK for light things like blades that everyone is so keen to make now a days. I have a five year old, 380# Refflinghaus No 9 as well as several American made anvils from 100 to 250#, Trenton and Arm and Hammer. All are fine anvils. I have been smithing over 50 years and have taught for nearly 30. I have seen lots of garbage from HF and some SoSo better items. I still stand behind the video 100%. Enjoy what you have. It isn't the tool but the smith that does the work. However better tools make the job of producing the work easier.
@@wayneparris3439 I'm going to use them in the outside back yard . But I will probably put a horse stall over it just to get out of the sunlight and rain.. but I will cover them up with tarp and treat them with some of that rust conditioner converter stuff
How about that 4140 atlas knife anvil ? Looks nice
Thankyou sir! Someone finally said it how it is - sweet and simple - thankyou! I will be completely reassessing my first anvil requirements. Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge.
Your welcome. As an old fart, I have been at this over 50 years since I first struck hot metal in 1969 in the 7th grade, back when there were real shop classes in school. I have tried a whole lot of work around and substituted things for use as an anvil before I acquired the anvils I have now. Sold mass under the hammer in the ballpark 100 pound range will do most anything you want to do. Find and join a blacksmith group near you and your skills will grow much quicker with the aid of someone giving hands on help. Your state may have a group and you can look for a chapter of ABANA .. artist blacksmith association, north America. Welcome to the trade, it is so rewarding to make things with your own hands!
This content is perfect. I realy enjoyed the aspect and appreciated the throwing the crap you don't realy need. I agree totally withal you have said considering most seels now adays are similar or better than some of the anvils of the early days. like you mentioned....Sincerely, Martin at M&S Blades and Blacksmihing
Tthank you. You saw it for what it is, a very basic way to get into smithing. For the most part I leave comments up regardless of viewpoint, I have only removed one that was a personal attack on me, it takes all kinds LOL
well done mate just what i needed to see. you saved me alot of time and headaches
Thanks for taking the time to make the video. Sound wasn't great but I could hear it fine. Even if I couldn't I would still get the point. COMMON SENSE.
good video, thanks for clearing my head. now I know what I need, and why.
You're welcome. A simple block will get you started. In the future you may want to get a "REAL" (notice the quotes) anvil a simple block of steel will serve you well for a while. There is a current trend in the smithing community to make "striking anvils" which are very similar to a block that I show in this video. Most often they are used for heavier work where there may be the possibility of damaging a lighter anvil.
The. tools that have developed on the modern anvil such as the horn and the hardy and pritchel holes are handy to have but are not mandatory for daily use as there are other ways to get those features.
Find a good local smithing group and learn with them. There are some good instructional videos on UA-cam but there are a whole lot of bad videos too.
Good luck!
wayne parris thanks man.
Nice…. Good to finally hear from subject matter expert. Thanks buddy.
Thanks, there is so much bad info out there sometimes I feel like a fish swimming up a dry creek LOL. I know it has been quite a while since this posted. Since then I have moved 2,800 miles across country and need to build a new shop. It cost a WHOLE lot of money to move the shop cross country but it was worth every penny to leave Ca.
Thanks for the video and advise, why don't more people use plain old common horse since anymore. I have one of those I made many years ago and still use it today. I sold my factory made 90 pound anvil, the block works so much better with much less ring.
I am not a blacksmith, but my rail anvil cost me zero $ and works good enough to shape my horseshoes and all other work I use it for. My thought is why spend money when steal is laying around almost every where, in most cases all one needs to do is ask. Thank you for your thoughts.
Congrats. If it does what you need, then it does. For all the same reasons in the video, a solid block would be more effective but, if you are happy, go for it.
Sir you saved me from making a $1000 mistake. I will update this post with what I find in the scrapyard and the price I pay for it.
How much did it cost to repair the big chunk taken out of the floor by dropping that rail?
I have good concrete, there was only a chip about the size of a pencil eraser LOL
Apart from learning what all I really need to make an anvil to get started, there's one other important thing I learned: do not mess with Wayne. Anybody that can flip heavy iron and steel around like it's styrofoam is NOT someone you want to get on the bad side of. You remind me of my Dad back in the day. Keep up the good work teaching/schooling those of us who don't know any better. I'm sorry you have to deal with idiots sometimes but I do appreciate that you took the time to help us out that actually want to learn!
Sound advice, an anvil is just a heavy solid face to work on, the first anvils were just a big rock!
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the email, very interesting piece. And thank you again, after viewing your video I will be going to the steel stockist and buying a large block of steel to start me off.
Keep up the good work my friend.
Kind Regards
Steve Silverwood
UK
Thank you! I've been searching for answers on this topic and you answered them as well as ones I didn't know I had. Much appreciated, thank you for teaching me something useful.
No problem! Wherever you are located, look for a local blacksmithing group. There are many more people involved in smithing than one may think. You might start with abana.org/affiliates/affiliate-map-list/#!directory/map
Excellent information. I haven't heard the physics of anvils before and always thought the rail anvils were the good ones.
Thank you. Many people are under that assumption, now you know better and why!
I have seen other people with this same idea and it makes a lot of sense.One thing have been wondering is how would you mount this to a stump?
You sir don't need a anvil!
I guess I need to make a video on that as well. You simply can use sections of angle iron screwed into the stump/block so as to prevent the anvil block from sliding around.
Thankyou Wayne great video I'm from Australia
Doug Crowhurst Thank YOU! seek out forging organizations around you. Use the internet. While there is some good information on UA-cam, most of the videos range from sort of OK to outright fantasy by self taught "experts" who have learned all they know from watching other equally bad videos.
A good buddy and I just spent a week demonstrating blacksmithing at Yosemite national park for the visitors. At night we would go back to the cabin and watch bad smithing videos for entertainment. The level of misinformation out there is astounding. Nothing is as good as becoming involved with a local group and getting hands on instruction. Good luck!
Thanks so much for explaining the logic. I’ll have to find a scrap yard which can be a challenge to find one in the UK these days. Thanks again- you have earned yourself a subscriber 😀
Thank you for making such a practical well explained video.
I found some spring steel 2-1/4" x 12" wide 3 foot long and boy it is great to hammer on and rings beautiful. It doesn't look no heck but it really works nicely. There is no substitute for mass.
I can hear it just fine. A lot of people expect dolby surround sound or they have a hissy fit.
Thank you kind sir, very informative.
I'm making a truck break drum forge, and had a free train track anvil that I made a while back, might look for a chunk of steel instead.
I'm thinking of turning a splitting maul that I found into a sledge hammer as well.
HINT: A splitting maul is already almost a straight-peen hammer.
lebomm johnson Haha, yep, lazy man's hammer.
Just round off the business end and put a handle on it.
I might attempt to cut out the sides a bit if it's too heavy - not sure how just yet.
THANKS FOR THE VIDEO IT,S GREAT I,M A SHEETMETAL AND HAVE BEEN FOR OVER THIRTY FIVE YEARS WORKING WITH COPPER DOING ROOFING METAL WORK .WHEN IN THE FIELD WE WOULD HAVE TO DRAW OUR SOLDERING IRON OUT TO A POINT AND ALOT OF MEN FOUND IT TOUGH TO DO IN THE FIELD .SO MY SOLUTION WAS TO GET A PIECE OF FLAT STEEL THAT WAS VERY HARD FROM THE IRONWORKERS ,AND IT WORKS VERY WELL FOR ME.
John, your caps lock key is stuck
Lol I have been wanting to build a railroad anvil, I do have a 10”x8”x4” tool Steel and I use it all the time. Thanks for the heads up on the imposters lol I did learn a lot from you video
hi I worked in the cutlery industry in Sheffield England We had the top surface of the anvils case hardened
Thank you for the no-nonsense video! If down the road, one found a need for a harder face, would it be very hard to forge weld a hard face on? Or perhaps a simple case hardening on the end with charcoal paste encased in clay and brought to critical for an hour or two?
Think of this as a tool to "get you going" and not as a life time tool. That puts a little better perspective on things. Yes if there is enough carbon in the steel it can be hardened. There are commercial chemicals such as "cherry red" or similar that will add carbon much better than home brew. Forge welding a hard plate on is a possibility but by the time you gain the skills to do it, you likely will have a more commercial anvil anyway but yes it is possible. Arc welding hard facing rod will do it also but it is an expensive way to go and you will go through a lot of pounds of rod and many many grinding wheels before you are done. Honestly having the face soft isn't a big deal. I have a 250 # Trenton anvil that I suspect has been through a fire because the face is dead soft. It would be expensive to have it hardened commercially even if I could find a place to do it. Honestly, I have used that anvil for about 20 years and only needed to repair the face twice. I use it quite a bit but when students do their worst, ... LOL. Missed hammer blows does the most damage, simply striking hot steel really does not do much at all.
wayne parris I was thinking simple case hardening by encasing the face in charcoal paste and clay, sitting in a pot forge upside down, let it soak at critical for about an hour and quenching. I do agree that a soft face isn't a big deal, but this could be a simple upgrade. At least a fun learning project.
Nothing says you can't but my personal view is that the work is more than the return on the energy spent. If you want to do it, go for it. I strongly suspect you will get a better result with a commercial compound vs charcoal etc. An old sKool method of hardening parts was to put them in a sealed box with charred leather and let soak at temp. While good 150 years ago and for small parts, we have modern ways that give much better results.
Excellent, I needed to watch this. Thanks.
The second I saw your video my one question was answered do I have to spend so much on an anvil?! I was getting overwhelmed by all the other videos thanks alot for being so clear
Yep! Great advice! Then you can spend your money on your forge/stakes and a swage block as you advance. In fact the oldest anvils were simply blocks of iron.
First off wonderful info I'm sorry to hear people rejecting such constructive criticism.
Second I Honestly want a hardy hole and I want something like a horn; especially after watching someone elongate a piece of steel super quick utilizing the horn. I will be doing alot of square nails and processing alot of RR spikes as they are about 30 per 20 yards here! I have planned a bunch simple tasks to start with as I already have a complimentary source of income for those projects (a 661 STHL chainsaw swinging a 36" bar and a garage full of bur oak slabs with blue stain from nails).
What would you suggest for an addition of a hardy hole and a horn... maybe a piece of round stock? It seems you just need a rounded edge to speed up the process of elongating? But the hardy hole? Cutting torch? I have a 211 MIG, a oxy/acetylene torch, a grinding wheel/ wire wheel, no side grinder yet (I know right? How did I make it this far 😂) and I have a respectable drill press. Help me out captain! I'd wing it but I can't afford to dick things up too bad
A radius ground into the block, even a 1/4 inch R is more than enough to draw stock over, the sharper the R the faster the drawing. You also do not use a horn to bend over as it mainly a support not a bending form, most of the time you use the side of the anvil for bending so there is no real down side there either. A good vise will hold any tool that would fit into a hardy hole and a bolster is all you need for sub on a pritchel hole. A post vise is designed for hammering on and bench vises being cast, are more likely to break under hammer blows. You could always go through the trouble to grind a R over one side of the block to resemble a horn and yes drill a hole then file it square if you really want a hardy hole but honestly, I have been smithing for 50 years and while having the horn and holes in the anvil are handy, it is not a huge thing to just sub a vise for that purpose. Yes a round bar in the vise makes a good sub for a horn.
@@wayneparris3439 thank you, I'm after Convenience; I'll round an edge and drill and attempt to square a hole off
@@cronkthecrunk Hey, it is yours, configure as you wish. Honestly, a slight Rad on one edge is all you need but if you want to round over one end, go for it. A few inches is all you need. If you want to add in a hardy, well go for that too. I would drill intersecting holes, one from the top and another from the side or end. Enjoy!
@@wayneparris3439 yeah I'm not gonna add a huge rad or anything just a half inch rounded edge
Exactly correct the base as well that you have it on too. Eliminate any bounce the more solid it is the more effective the energy and results are.