The Importance of 'Face' in China - Rupert Munton - ClarkMorgan Insights
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2024
- 'Face' or 'mianzi' is a often misunderstood human characteristic, which plays an important role in China. Failure to understand its significance in business relationship can cause tension and in worst cases, a complete breakdown of a relationship.
Rupert Munton discusses a case involving two British engineers based in Beijing and their interaction with a local engineer. In this Insight, you'll learn that "being right might win you the battle, but it will lose you the war".
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He is so right and I hate this part of my own culture to the bones...it's right that you shouldn't embarrass someone, but Chinese people takes it to a whole different level that should not be accepted by any culture standard. specially when it comes to science, its about what is RIGHT not losing your own little FACE.
face means pride basically.
koreans do this too.. it sucks
@@yoleeisbored It's okay. Asians did not develop science for a reason.
Galileo went against the catholic church to tell everyone the sun is the center and not the earth. He was imprisoned for years just for that 1 offense.
Imagine if someone in China went against the emperor... It's just not something that would happen in Asia.
thats just avoiding responsibility with extra steps
I'm beginning to understand this, but the one issue I still can't get through is with that of the managers subordinates.
I mean, they just watched there manager fabricate information... They must know that the book wasn't actually incorrect. How does that not effect the working relationship as a unit?
well the concept of face also applies there, big time. You don't want to make your boss angry. This doesn't necessarily affect their productivity, provided the boss is perfect, ideal, omnipotent. But he isn't so situations like these happen. Same goes on a larger scale.
*I live with Chinese, and believe me, they don't show this level of control. They'll blame you for something you didn't do and constantly point out your mistakes.*
I wonder how the Chinese would have handled it if the British engineer had made a mistake.
They would've done everything in their power and pulled over every connection they had to make his life miserable, as to not loose face ( yes, using connections to fuck someone's life and his family is actually a way of saving ''prestige'' in china. )
Science is about truth not comfort zone.
So there is no such thing as accepting your mistake in china? Just try to cover it up ( like changing the value in the text book) somehow though how deceitful it is. Living in a predominantly Chinese country and I still don't understand these people.
Nope. There isn't. One party can force the other one to accept they are wrong by force or threats. But unless the other guy can ruin your life you must not accept that you committed a mistake, or if you don't have choice, try to reach a peaceful solution bullshiting your way out of the argument.
Those are chinese for you .
So, if it's just you and a Chinese person with no witnesses, is it okay to just say, "You made a mistake and this is what you did wrong? Or do you still need to do it in a way that saves the person face?
Wow supporting a forgery is a way to form a relationship ? No thanks
It is not about admitting the chinese leader is wrong, but it is about insulting amd embarrassing the Chinese leader in front of his staff. It is a culture thing in Asia that you do not embarrassed or insult the leader in front of their subordinate. Same as embarrassing the father in front of his kids and wife.... In asian culture, be it China or Middle east or south east Asian, people do not accept other people embarrassing their leader. Its a sign of disrespect. If the leader need to be corrected, it is normally done in private and in a manner that do not make him/ her "loose face". In asia, it is all about politeness and being gentle but smart.
Sorry to disagree. In my opinion, there's nothing of smart on that. It's a very emotional and egocentric concept to hold on to.
Well it would be better if they weren't so precious, pompous and childish. It seems like a long way around to get to the truth. Our western culture is not bounded in this way. If something needs to be corrected it is generally done so directly and thus things can progress without the tedious tip toe around immature and delicate egos.
2+2=5
And thus my friend, this is why there were 80 millions of death due to the great leap forward .
We really liked this video. One of my students showed it in our Muticultural Management class.
Really? Do you mean that dealing with a Chinese person is exactly like dealing with a 3 years old child? Because the situation described has absolutely nothing to do with being adults and looks a lot like how to not disappoint a 3 years old child.
My Chinese wife could accidentally stab me in the gut with a steak knife but STILL would not apologize because she might LOSE FACE. It's a stupid concept leading to destructive behavior and needs to END NOW.
All about reputation huh? So if it means doing immortal things and hurting other people just so you don’t look bad, it’s all good in Chinese culture?
Very villain culture
Hard concept to get my head around
same here and Im chinese....
@@davidyao7860 It's easy to understand: its ego + insecurity wrapped with cultural jargon.
Not that hard: just try to go back to your memories of when you were three years old and someone exposed your mistakes or limits. That's what the "losing face" culture sounds like to me: childish arrogance. And the funniest thing is that every other culture can make fun of Chinese just because of this cultural trait, because for everyone outside of China such a childish trait is something to laugh at. Quite paradoxical, right?
It's all about respect in hierarchy
Which is stupid and not a recipe for progress.
Face is childish. We need to not accept this silly face culture. It is not worth giving up our own culture
Of course. And we won't accept it. I mean all cultures have something similar to face, but it seems that Chinese have taken it too far.
another thing, this situation is relly not that representative. "Face" in the typical situation would be expressed through wealth, propriety, etc. So if you finish a meal but you still have a lot of food, it would be considered "embarrasing" to simply fetch this food home so you don't waste it. They would rather throw it away and not lose face.
Sorry, but that's childish behaviour (by the chinese guy). Anyway, thanks for the video!
+Human Ape It might be considered childish by western standards, but it's really just a culture thing. I'm a ethnic Chinese raised in the west so it's something I had to learn the hard way too. The culture in china seems to be that most of the information are implied rather than stated openly and explicitly.
For example, say if person A made a mistake. It should be plain as day that person A made a mistake. person A know it's his fault, person B know it's person A's fault, everyone knows, so there's no need to talk about who's fault it is, just go fix the mistake. The only time you would explicitly point out someone's mistake is if you are trying to mock him/her, or if you are just a rude person who doesn't know any better.
And in these situations, even if person A go off get a book and blame it on the book, that is not just person A trying to defend himself. It's also person A trying to give person B a "step" down so person B don't look like a barbaric asshole, uneducated in the ways of social etiquette.
Everything is just super subtle. It took me a long time to grasp it. In a proper Chinese conversation, Person A would acknowledge his own mistake without stating that he made a mistake. And person B would would accept the apology without openly admit there was anything person A need to apologise for in the first place.
+David Xu I just watched this video for a first time, and that's the reason I'm commenting right now. I grew up in an environment halfway between China and the USA (moving westwards). Much emphasis was on subtlety et al in the communication among adults. The adults were virtually always polite among themselves, less so with their young. In time, the environment became increasingly dominated by misunderstandings, misconceptions, all in all, general alienation.
I'm stating this this very aware that 1. I'm talking about just one society, and 2. leaving an open question whether there was a causal relationship between the subtlety on one hand, and social fragility on the other.
I'll venture to say you can be subtle only if you know the implicit knowledge and views of the other side. The Chinese culture can be excellent for relationships within China, and with its Far Eastern neighbours. At the same time, a different culture would be optimal in other international relations.
P.S. I wish to make one more comment: Person A, by blaming the book, laid grounds
for the loss of face of the book's author. His blaming can work insofar there is virtual isolation between the participants in the event from the book's author, and in our world of interconnectivity, the risk it creates can be too high. It can lead to an escalation of problems.
If Confucianism rules in China, well, in my copy of Confucius, there are frequent calls for "sincerity." Person A failed to be sincere. Does the Chinese culture have an adequate conceptual answer to this kind of situation, I wonder.
I completely agree with you. It's not the subtlety that results in confusion and misunderstanding. Rather, it's the different level of subtlety and culture references.
And that, will stop China as a whole from reaching greater heights, and cause much suffering and misery for people In the Chinese culture. All for "looking good"
@@hughtrevor-flopper3214 I agree with what you said about Confucianism. I think it's an example of a general problem: the general public (read 'average person') adopting the philosophies of a great mind. Often it's an imitation of the form rather than the adoption of the essence of the philosophy. And over time, the imitation becomes part of the 'social etiquette', the 'I don't know why you do it, but you just do' behaviors.
Whatever, I don't believe what this guy said, losing face happens in all cultures. I grew up in Asian culture, not chinese, where it is the same about losing the face, but if you say there is no such thing in Europe or USA, that is completely wrong, I work in a team in which no one can take it if talk above them even if they are below me in experience, smartness or anything or above me or my own level. In fact they are all revengeful and racist. So shove that lie in a cabinet and let it stay there. Thank you.
Human emotions will always be the same anywhere in the world unless it is proved that all races of Humans are different animals or species and cannot mate with the other.
It is the same everywhere, it will cost everywhere not just that one place if your opinion is right and you try to correct someone, I have experience with people that I work and I report to, so please do not say it differs.
@@niggadeesiadugara3415 I have always found that it is best for both parties that have a problem is to let me check my work and then l have always found a way around to blame myself for not understanding clearly but garner good relations which resulted in long term contracts being signed which led to more work.
The difference is that in the west, if you refuse or fail to acknowledge your mistakes, THEN you loose face.If you cannot accept your own mistakes and take responsibility for them then you will be laughed at and nobody will ever trust your judgment. You will be discredited thoroughly. In china, this doesn't seem to happen. Even when it is obvious that someone is wrong everyone goes along with it and partakes in a collective fallacy. Now that is stupid and immature and unproductive. No wonder why so many chinese infrastructure projects are total shit that ends up crumbling to pieces and killing people. There is no accountability in the culture and thus anything goes. BIG difference. THat's why the west has progressed so much further on so many fronts.
Culture of losing face is only present in western politics.
Western citizens do not participate in that kind of neurotic lying and look down on people who do, ESPECIALLY THEIR OWN WESTERN POLITICIANS.
This "face" alone is the sad anchor that hold Chinese civilization from achieving greater heights. "Face" is simply an egotistical pride that someone wants to use to cover insecurity. Sometimes the best thing is to "lose face" and accept the face that we have weakness so we can work with it with practical choices. Sometimes, practical choices are not glamorous and "honorable" , but it can feed the stomach.
what an idiot.
Face is not prestige or pride. A Chinese loosing face is not accepting that he commited a mistake by swallowing his pride, he is letting his family be sullied, insulting them all, maybe even forcing his father to kick him out, maybe even making his family loose their jobs.