Good thing you uploaded this because I was just thinking to myself this exact topic. My biggest issue, is M+ leavers need to have a punishment for leaving just like solo shuffle leavers have in PVP. I am SO tired of wasting time in dungeons because people want to rage and leave. The PVP experience is far better than PVE from what I have been through
Or at least a "vote to quit" option. If I'm pushing keys above a +10, sometimes there is no reason for me to want to finish the key if it is bricked. But there are times when some one leaves but the key is still very timable. Many times we are there for the M+ score alone. Now, of course if people are there for different reasons then I 100% agree.
cant punish leavers without severely abusing the system. you are pretty much delusional to think that such a system would work. people dont leave as much as you think they do.
@@neverclevernorwitty7821 Genuine question; how would making tanks more tanky help with the scarcity of healers? As a healer; the most annoying thing in M+ is mostly DPS players not using their defensives/kicks paired with the silly amount of unavoidable AoE damage.
Knowing blizzard they'll just remove the 15 second death timers and you'll have the usual streamers soyjacking that m+ is saved and blizzard is listening.
The delves interface for mythic plus would be amazing. I’m a dad gamer Andy and right now. I spend the majority of my time in the main hub city getting declined from plus 10s because I play an off Meta spec and people don’t want to deplete their key and to be fair. I don’t blame them. It’s the system not the player.
Note 1 - been doing m+ since legion, 3000k rio, been playing since bc Note 2 - edits for spelling mistakes im high af What do you think about removing the time limit on keys? I feel like historically (and what made wow amazing) was difficulty via not being able to kill things. My thought process would be that Blizzard should revamp the damage scaling to make it for example, the reason why you cant complete a +12 is because u physically cant kill a boss, forcing you to wait until you get better gear. This may also require making dungeons much shorter, for example if u are adequately geared u should complete like 15 mins, to allow under geared casuals to finish the dungeon in 30, i think the length of time it takes to find and finish an m+ key is also a big issue, but i feel its a symptom of much larger issues rather than a cause of the m+ problems. Ie fix the majn grievances we have with the system and this may potentially go awayy same thing could be said about the elitist and frankly iut of control player base at this point. Most of us come back from work, and basically start playing world of chore craft to join higher end stuff we need to link our logs, link achievements, among maby ither things bloody hell its a game??? Talking about gearing I think we need to introduce (yes another) currency similar to what we saw for Black Rock Depths timewalking event for the anniversary which allows you to select specific drops from M+ i believe a lot of burn out once you are nearing max is related to grinding the same M+ dungeon over and over again like 30+ times and not hitting your bis!!! I would also think it may be worth for the sweatlords doing 14/15s that they can get Myth track gear, I really see no reason why you cant get the best gear from M+ when you consider really high keys like 18s/18s could arguably be much harder than some current raid bosses. Last thought, an issue ive noted, mind you I pug only basically maybe with one friend every so often, seems to be a lack of knowledge of dungeon mechanics, interrupting incorrectly, stunning etc. I feel like for casuals there isnt a good enough guide to help them, without needing to watch some indepth video on the dungeon, or spamming the same dungeon a million times whvih is not suitable to casuals often limited time (around 1/2hrs a day?? Probably not even) i think a good solution could be to simplify all the spells in dungeons like having a randomly targeted spell from a mob which will one shot you called somthing along the lines of “one shot debuff” , regardless of what debuff it is and which dungeon jt is, like those large tenticle mfkers in gb before the final boss or cocoon blast from a spider. Maybe naming changes wont work but pitentially making changes to cast bars as stabdard rather than needing addons and profiles on plater like of quazii, a lot of casuals use the base ui!!
I don't think Blizzard will ever realistically remove the timer. That's an essential part of M+. I do think having DPS check bosses is a good thing. I'd rather not time a key because the group can't kill a boss than bricking a key because someone forgot to kick. I think the youre right. Having a way to get selective pieces of gear at a lower frequency would be pretty cool And I think your last point is valid too. There are some mechanics that you don't know exist until someone tells you, or you go watch an in-depth detailed video on each dungeon. I mean, there is a dungeon journal that lets you view the bosses abilities, but there isn't one for the trash in the dungeon. And the trash in the dungeons are just as mechanic heavy and difficult as the bosses.
Me and friend were discussing to have like 3 charges on a key which give you 3x chances after the 3 charges are gone the key bricks i think that would be a happy medium with risk reward
@@lapzwansie26 that’s for sure a better system than now. And if one person wasn’t quite up to the key level and someone else was you would be able to stay with players for another try.
Exactly what i have been saying since BFA. I am fine with downgrading, but at least give us a couple of tries on the new achieved keylevel. Right now the problem is even bigger since there are artificial walls on +10 and +12. Like a +12 is a +13 or +14 scaled... We are smashing 11's with alts and getting smashed on 12's on our mains. It really would be nice to get more experience in on +12.
Issues- Leavers- allow the clock to stop and fill if someone drops the group. Timer- cause alot of the issues. Loot is tied to time. People leave because time fails. Drop rates are trash- add a MF currency that allows a roll on a slot (similar to kadala from D3).
Holy priest here, I mainly run with a small group of friends and we pug anywhere from 2 to 3 DPS players. My biggest issue right now with mythic plus is gearing. It’s very difficult to gear and as a healer at some point, my heels are just not enough and so I need better gear in order to, increase my healing. However, based on the current system, it takes far too long and it’s far too punishing to try to earn the crest that you need to upgrade your gear. I’ve reached a point where I’m just not interested, I mainly play on the weekend and I just don’t have the time to invest to move forward anymore, unfortunately. I really like your ideas for changes to the current mythic plus system, thanks for the video
I’ll tell you what I’m doing when keystones don’t deplete. I’m starting my group. I’m giving it 2 pulls to see how good these people are. If it’s good I’ll allow the group to continue. If I’m not pleased I’m leaving the key and resisting it instantly.
I mean....I kinda feel like this already happens. The highest keys I've done is a +12 and I would say that 80% of the +12s I've done have disbanded at or before the 1st boss.
Primarily run in a group, but we frequently end up taking a pug member (and aren't terribly nitpicky with whom). Or whenever me and my bf go practically alone, there's going to be 3 pugs. Sometimes 2 if one of our friends can tag along. The added time as a penalty for a death, I don't understand what they were thinking there. Very bad idea. Could've kept that as a flavor thing for MDI only, though. Personally, not timing the key feels less of an issue, as the loot that drops isn't reduced. And changing it to that the crest's doesn't reduce any either, would be optimal. Key's downgrading from depletion? They should likely get rid of that, I feel, as it would make people (hopefully) less nervous with running their own keys. There will be less at stakes then. Otherwise? As someone who actively ran M+ in Legion, BfA and Shadowlands - and then took a couple of years off. To return in the war within. I'm thinking to myself, M+ is WAY better now, and it isn't honestly that difficult. Players have gotten shittier though, and many have a jawdropping attitude issue, where they are completely unable to realize that the biggest problem that they have? In not being able to time keys, and find others to run with. Is in the majority of case (I've seen so far) their own fault. I can say, based on my own anecdotal experience, that the typical complainers we've had in our groups, are truth be told. Causing most of the issues with trash packs and bosses. Doesn't effing know they have defensives, interrupts and other group helping tech that significantly increase the success rate if used. Tend to complain about "safer" pulls as well, when we slow down and adapt to their lack of ability. Like Jesus :facepalm: We are extremely chill and forgiving with people making mistakes, everyone can (and will). But it is provocative to see the amount of whining little b*tches crying M+ is a horrible experience, when they themselves are a major root cause for them having such a bad time. I do like most of your suggestions, I just don't think it would really fix that much. Not until people fix their attitude issues, and learn to self analyze.
This is great! Thanks for sharing. I agree. I don't want M+ to be easy. I want it to value my time more...if that makes sense? Making it easier is just going to be like what happened in Dragonflight where people are pushing +30 keys. Myself who is currenting 2.7io playing a healer, I know when something is my fault whether it be lack of healing or a misplay, but I also constantly see people dying without the use of their defensives or DPS classes not using their decurses because they don't understand utility. But at the same time Legion and BFA didn't "require" DPS players to do anything other than DPS. So I think these players were already bad, it was just harder to tell back then. xD
@@Telindra I have the same anecdotal experience with my guildies. The worse the player the less they see mistakes in themselves. The best players in our guild are like 3.1k, when something goes wrong in the key and even if it wasn’t their mistake, they most of the time say “damn I could have done this, my bad” or something similar. The players with 2-2.3k io in my guild are the ones blaming healers and saying they cannot pug in keys cause the randoms are so bad and always ruining their keys.
@@pokket_gaming yeah that makes sense, and I basically agree with you too. About most of the stuff you suggested in your video. Something which I feel Blizzard is bad at, when it comes to WoW, is giving players a reason to learn what utilities and spells they have in their toolkit. (and make them not forget about them xD). I also feel that they aren't good at making things clear, in dungeons and raids, speaking about mechanics and dangerous mob abilities - where if you have, lets say your defensives off CD, can use in order to survive. You basically need WA's and addons in order to "get trained" on the fly, with those things. This I feel doesn't help to reduce the amount of (unnecessary) bads that are out there, who have a distorted view of _why_ they struggle, have a miserable time in pugs, etc. Basically blaming everyone else except themselves. Could be true yes lmao
@@gooseg3822 ye exactly! Now there will be the odd one at 3k+ who is an absolute shit head, raging at the tiniest of thing, too. Where you sort of wonder. How, they managed to get that high score in the first place (more as in, how can someone stand this person for long enough, type of how?!). But most of the time, there's a lot less complaining and more owning up to mistakes. Without flaming and bad attitudes. And even when you know mechanics, and how to play, man. Stuff can still happen. Momentary confusion, for example, so you make the most embarrassing type mistake.
You mentioned literally everything I’ve been saying to other players & wanting for so long now. Keys depleting to rage quitters is so unfair. Sadly blizzard would never listen to the playerbase regarding any of this whatsoever. It’s like talking to a brick wall
Well I think one of the issues too is unless the "loudest" people on the internet are saying the same thing then there will likely not be any changes. And most of those people are in that top % and don't have the issues of everyday players. Of course this is just my opinion.
Things i would personally change 1-Crest drop should be the same, timing the key or not should be irrelevant 2-Remove valorstone 3-Add more rewards after 2.5k 4-Gilded should drop sooner or at least make it as a reward, once you reach let's say 2.7k Gilded drop from 7+ on your account, this will help with alts if you don't have a group to grind 5-Give a bonus reduction on crafting on your alts after you craft 3 times on the main, 50% would help a lot and encourage people to play more alts after they reach their goal on the main 6-Remove the penalty for failing a key, there is no reason for my key to go -1, this does not help at all 7-Remove the nonsense they did with AOE stuns and casting
Removing key depletion will fix alot. However the number of low keys will drop significantly but making the game more alt friendly will fix that. Even with Warbands, I'm finding it hard to maintain a Main and an alt as my main is no where near complete thanks to Mythic vault being 10 and the extremely high gate keeping this season
I have 2 punishment ideas that Blizzard should consider implementing for m+ leavers. 1) I think leavers should have their own key stone depleted. If they don't have a key, then by leaving, they are automatically granted a +2. If they are on a +2 already and they leave, they should get a stacking debuff they counts towards a negative progress so when they do try to push their key, they have to time the key and based on the amount levels they would go up, the debuff subtracts from that value. So if they have 3 stacks of a debuff, and they 3 chest a key, they clear the debuff, but the key level stays the same. 2) the other alternative is that if you leave, you don't deplete, but you get a debuff that stacks based on leaves or maybe higher key levels have a curse with more levels of the stack for leaving. This devalues the level of rewards you get from a certain key level. So if you have 3 stacks of the debuff and did a +8 for some gilded crests, you only get runed crests because your rewards level is now as if you timed a +5. And that also applies to your vault. Along with these punishments they could have some sort of icon showing if players are known leavers. The punishment would only apply to the first person to leave the group during the key. They should also add in a vote to forfeit button that way the group can agree to disband without any consequences. Maybe besides a timer lockout from doing that same key again that way coordinated groups can't exploit that. I know it's not perfect but neither is the current system. It will be a work in progress to iron out everything overtime but it's better than doing nothing at all, which is what we are currently dealing with.
@MrCarlWax with the vote to forfeit button, a majority vote will allow you to disband without punishment. M+ is not a unique expedient. Play valorant or league and you will know that you commonly deal with this same thing or worse, inters and griefers. That doesn't mean that the game shouldn't punish you for abandoning a ranked game. M+ dungeons also tend to be faster than many league or Valorant games. So the argument that you don't want your time wasted can't really be prioritized. It is the consequence for participating in a competitive game mode.
If you are allowed to choose what dungeon you prog you'll run into the same issue that Throne and liberty had. Tanks will do one set of dungeons for loot, healers will do another.
I don't think I agree with this, maybe at a lower keys. But you don't do anything above a +10 for loot. I think you would see specific classes farming specific dungeons for the loot but only at lower keystone levels.
I disagree, strenuously. First, I am a tank and pug, but exclusively in a community that enforces strict player behavior (hint: that's the solution, this is a community problem not a systems problem). If no keys deplete, you will not solve any problems, but create a whole new set of problems. Players will still hit walls that their skill cannot overcome, but will be convinced that its the other players in the group that are the issue, but now without forcing to go back and relearn things. No keys being depleted means there will be ZERO pugs in the low keys, which means new players won't be able to do M+ at all. No with no natural deflation of keys, players will be generally forced into higher key levels they can't complete (unless they manually drop their key, which players rarely want to do), which means it WILL be harder for the average player to fill their vault. However, I do agree that dungeon completion rewards need to be adjusted, not hard to calculate repair costs and should at least pay that. Incentivize people to complete the dungeon, that's a LOT different than giving no consequences if they fail a dungeon. I'd consider no key depletion if it's limited, maybe IF your vault key is half your highest level from the previous week.
That is a very good point that I did not consider. Thanks for sharing! I think that you're right, there would be less smaller keys as the season went on making it more difficult for new players to find groups. Maybe the key you get in vault every week always starts at a +2. It just never depletes. Thanks again for disagreeing but having some solid points.
2 things I don't like about M+ is key depletion and affixes. The latter just bugs me and feels more like a slog to deal with than actually an enjoyable challenge. I'm all for difficulty and keeping players on their toes in elite content like this, and the flow with a good dungeon group is thrilling and is the main reason I keep coming back to it.... but I'd rather failing the mechs becomes more lethal in higher keys, which requires you to understand the dungeon and mobs well, instead of "You know this boss fight well, but now during the fight, also destroy or collect a couple of floating purple orbs" - just wish they'd get rid of affixes altogether.
Good video, thanks for making it. I agree that Blizz is taking much too long to exact change on this gamemode which causes some of the quickest burnout. Delves has been such a breath of fresh air because of the accessibility. Making the changes you put here wouldn't "fix" M+ enough though as I really do think it is a broken gamemode and will need more love than a few tweaks.
The big issue is that m+ is too hard for the REWARD system it offers. No one likes the crest system. You complete a +10-12, which is quite challenging to the average player, only to get a hero piece of gear if you’re LUCKY to even get a piece of loot at the end of a dungeon.
They still refuses to understand that the player base nowadays are not the same it was 20 yearsd ago. Theres no new players almost, we are the same, older, with less time, less patience, less addiction. I only log to run M+, 3,1k tank. Its been miserable, i did all 11s very fast and from that point forward, its pure frustration. Not joy at all.
I have to say I for some reason enjoy the season very much. I enjoy the slower progression with gear, which makes me enjoy my main for longer. I know this is against the general sentiment. 2 changes I would like to see most in the game: • cemeteries at every boss (in raid as well) It shouldn’t be a skillgap to know when to release and when not. And running back 2 minutes after already getting a 1:15 deduction cause of deaths is just stupid and boring. • scaling of keys should be 10% dmg and 20% health This would make for much more exciting gameplay and the focus would get much more to master you class, rotation and dmg optimisation rather than having to know which of the 3 casts every mob does is lethal and having to use every 2nd global for a dispel or utility in general.
I definitely agree that the slower progression is better. If I had the best gear in the game by week 2 what would I be working towards if not io score? Really good point though. haha Should not be a skill gap to know where to release. haha
I really like your idea about not have keys get depleted. Seems like such a simple compromise to make which would get more people of all skill levels back in Mplus. I play with a mix of guildies (fewer and fewer these days however) and pugs. It is far, far less enjoyable for me this time than in DF. I end up just doing really low keys or no keys at all \
there is too much unavoidable dmg ... so basically that is just to cuck healers so much... i would rather see alot more avoidable dmg, becuase as a dps i cant do much about unavoidable dmg and it feels really bad
Youre right, I agree. But they need to find a balance. If everything is avoidable then the skilled players wont even bring a healer if they can mitigate or avoid all the damage. You have to keep healers relevant; which was one of the main reasons for the tank nerfs at the beginning of the expac.
I enjoy the M+ experience this season. I enjoy the challenge. I don't think Blizzard should be responsible for peoples availability and their friend list.
HTey depletion is a must! and the gear after healing or tanking and you get nothing after all the extra work you put in is fucking rude! BFA it was 4 for time key and 3 for a not timed and a chance for a 5th. delves are boring and Im fine dong them but I need the gear from keys!
As a "top 0.1% player" that primarily plays with a full premade team, I pretty much agree with all of your thoughts. The system has grown too toxic and the complaints can be heard throughout the entire community. My thoughts: - Keystone depletion: Absolutely get rid of it. Also get rid of all penalties for not timing a key. Why receive less crests for not timing? Shouldn't you at least be rewarded for completing the dungeon instead of ragequitting? Imo rewards should scale with key level, e.g. 5 crests + 1 crest per level and 200g + 100g per level. Also 2 loot items + 1 additional item at every level divisible by 5. Sidenote: Can we please have some form of better gear progression as M+ only players other than just weekly vault? And a loot-targeting / bad-luck-protection system so we can get those pesky trinkets or weapons we so badly need from raid. - Making it like Delves: Not completely sure about this one, making keys completely spammable would make M+ very similar to raid, where you just progress an encounter (in this case a dungeon) over and over and over again until you finally do it. It would take a lot of the variety out of the M+ gameplay loop. E.g. Dorki said on the PoddyC that playing TGP/MDI feels 100% completely different from M+ and really more like Raid. I'm not sure I would like this to be the case. But I agree that we should be able to target dungeons that we want to play better. My idea would be a currency similar to Flightstones (capped, but infinitely earnable). Let's say e.g. for every 5 dungeons you play you can change your key to the dungeon you want. - True, 15s death timer sucks. Remove it completely (including the 5s penalty that was there before) and place a spawn point after every boss. It already sucks to die and it's often in the middle of your cooldowns anyways. No need to be punished with 15s death timer and a tilting, way too long runback. - Groupwide oneshots: I would even argue there is too many oneshots in general, period. The meta has shifted from healers keeping people alive to everyone having to keep themselves alive with def CDs and healers are just there to top people up so they survive in combination with their def cd. This has made healing a hugely unsatisfying role and it's why we see less and less people opt to play healers. Dungeons are fun when you speed through them. High key pushing is fun when you maximize every single pull you can do in a dungeon, not when you just hold W and pull every pack individually and if nobody dies then hooray key is timed. There need to be less oneshot mechanics and Blizzard need to start challenging people with the timer, not with mechanics, again. Trash mobs should mostly be trash. At the moment, every trash fight feels like a boss fight with all different mechanics you have to know about or you just wipe. And yeah, like you say, failed mechanics should primarily be punished with slowdowns, and not necessarily deaths / complete wipes. - Devaluing Stops: 100% agree, this change has made my team's life miserable. So many mobs require 3-4 players to kick them nowadays, it feels horrible to play. I was also of the opinion that AoE stops were too OP in keeping a mob pack completely CC'd, but this was not the solution. Instead, the CD of AoE stops should have been increased. As a bear i for example have 2 AoE stops, each on a 30s CD. This could easily be increased to 60s or even 90s each. Also, AoE stuns feel terrible and should have their relative value increased. Why does Shockwave only stun for 2 seconds? The stun literally ends when you press your next Global. All AoE stuns should be increased to 4s or even 5s. And Stun DR needs to be changed for PvE, a complete immunity is crap. DR should go like 100% -> 70% -> 40% -> 10% and then stay at 10%, so that each stun is at least still a stop, and isn't just immuned completely. Another topic I think is very important: - Queueing System: imagine a world where in LoL players would build their perfect team for every match, and there was no matchmaking, only team vs team. The game would be dead, as people would only ever start games after waiting for the in-their-eyes perfect team comp, with a champion they like or perceive as meta on every single role, and only players of equal or higher elo than themselves. This is the system we live in in WoW. And with the depletion system and all the punishments that come with not timing keys, players are even incentivized to use the system like this to minimise their risk. It's absolutely dystopian. WoW needs a proper matchmaking system. Let keyholders determine a lot of the parameters, like minimum score / ilvl requirement, or whether they care about having a Bloodlust/Battleres always on their team. But don't let them determine all of the parameters, don't let them pick only meta specs for every single key. Also, please don't call this "Solo Queue", as people should absolutely be able to queue with whatever team size they want and not feel like theyre forced to leave their friends behind so they can play. Then, introduce a "Forfeit" vote for keys needing all 5 votes for the first 50% of the dungeon's timer, 4 votes for the last 50%, and 3 votes after time has run out. Only 10 minutes after time is out players should be allowed to leave the key without receiving a leaverbuster punishment. Leaverbuster is literally a thing in LFR and in Normal & Heroic dungeon queues, modes where it does not really matter at all. But it's not a thing for M+ where it would be of utmost importance? Obviously with such a system, reports for Griefing would need to be taken seriously, as you don't want some angry troll just ninja-pulling permanently just to force the group to forfeit / run out the timer so they dont get leaverbusted. I think if nothing else changes, I would identify a proper matchmaking system as the single most important thing to deal with the current issue of players just ... not getting to play. I think the change in the playerbase would be insane, suddenly you would see a much greater variety of specs, and i think the M+ gameplay loop would become a lot less toxic for everyone involved.
Yes.... wish I could triple like this comment. Especially agree with the comments about healers and trash, it's less about the healer and more everyone having to see defensives for survivability. Also nice flex on the 0.1%, that's a level I couldn't play at!
Thanks so much for taking the time to write this out. I wholehearted agree with everything you said. The queue system you talked about too would be incredible. I could make a whole YT vid responding to this comment. I wish I had more of an audience to share this with others.
@@pokket_gaming thanks for taking the time to read & reply! :) Of course it would be great to have a bigger reach, but nevertheless it's important to still voice your concerns. In my algorithm I've seen multiple small creators criticise the M+ system lately. It adds up and spreads the sentiment that we need change throughout the community. And eventually Blizzard will need to do something about it - just like they did with finally improving/removing affixes after the community complained about them for so long. :P I really hope Blizzard notices this issue soon and acknowledges it so that we can work towards a better M+ future!
You hit the nail on the head with them designing dungeons around top 1% of players. I agree with this wholeheartedly, and it also extends to their class design. Disc priests and aug evokers are crap in lower keys/ easier content because the top players abuse them in high end.
@@FannerofFlames That is not the case since the M+ revamp, and a spec shouldn't be dead weight in the hands of lower end players just because it's too good on the higher end.
Good thing you uploaded this because I was just thinking to myself this exact topic.
My biggest issue, is M+ leavers need to have a punishment for leaving just like solo shuffle leavers have in PVP. I am SO tired of wasting time in dungeons because people want to rage and leave. The PVP experience is far better than PVE from what I have been through
Or at least a "vote to quit" option. If I'm pushing keys above a +10, sometimes there is no reason for me to want to finish the key if it is bricked. But there are times when some one leaves but the key is still very timable. Many times we are there for the M+ score alone. Now, of course if people are there for different reasons then I 100% agree.
cant punish leavers without severely abusing the system. you are pretty much delusional to think that such a system would work. people dont leave as much as you think they do.
just give us unkillable tanks and massive pulls again. Why the fuck not
I agree, the main problem with M+ is the scarcity of healers, making tanks more tanky would certainly help this.
@@neverclevernorwitty7821 Genuine question; how would making tanks more tanky help with the scarcity of healers?
As a healer; the most annoying thing in M+ is mostly DPS players not using their defensives/kicks paired with the silly amount of unavoidable AoE damage.
unkillable tanks and massive pulls just leads to the group dying to rot damage, its unbelievably frustrating for healers.
@@edenitewrong
@@CharlieVictor212 wrong.
If we're only making 1 change, make it reverting stops for casts.
Knowing blizzard they'll just remove the 15 second death timers and you'll have the usual streamers soyjacking that m+ is saved and blizzard is listening.
honestly, that would be a pretty good place to start.....
The delves interface for mythic plus would be amazing. I’m a dad gamer Andy and right now. I spend the majority of my time in the main hub city getting declined from plus 10s because I play an off Meta spec and people don’t want to deplete their key and to be fair. I don’t blame them. It’s the system not the player.
I feel the same way. I don't always play the meta either.
Note 1 - been doing m+ since legion, 3000k rio, been playing since bc
Note 2 - edits for spelling mistakes im high af
What do you think about removing the time limit on keys? I feel like historically (and what made wow amazing) was difficulty via not being able to kill things. My thought process would be that Blizzard should revamp the damage scaling to make it for example, the reason why you cant complete a +12 is because u physically cant kill a boss, forcing you to wait until you get better gear. This may also require making dungeons much shorter, for example if u are adequately geared u should complete like 15 mins, to allow under geared casuals to finish the dungeon in 30, i think the length of time it takes to find and finish an m+ key is also a big issue, but i feel its a symptom of much larger issues rather than a cause of the m+ problems. Ie fix the majn grievances we have with the system and this may potentially go awayy same thing could be said about the elitist and frankly iut of control player base at this point. Most of us come back from work, and basically start playing world of chore craft to join higher end stuff we need to link our logs, link achievements, among maby ither things bloody hell its a game???
Talking about gearing I think we need to introduce (yes another) currency similar to what we saw for Black Rock Depths timewalking event for the anniversary which allows you to select specific drops from M+ i believe a lot of burn out once you are nearing max is related to grinding the same M+ dungeon over and over again like 30+ times and not hitting your bis!!! I would also think it may be worth for the sweatlords doing 14/15s that they can get Myth track gear, I really see no reason why you cant get the best gear from M+ when you consider really high keys like 18s/18s could arguably be much harder than some current raid bosses.
Last thought, an issue ive noted, mind you I pug only basically maybe with one friend every so often, seems to be a lack of knowledge of dungeon mechanics, interrupting incorrectly, stunning etc. I feel like for casuals there isnt a good enough guide to help them, without needing to watch some indepth video on the dungeon, or spamming the same dungeon a million times whvih is not suitable to casuals often limited time (around 1/2hrs a day?? Probably not even) i think a good solution could be to simplify all the spells in dungeons like having a randomly targeted spell from a mob which will one shot you called somthing along the lines of “one shot debuff” , regardless of what debuff it is and which dungeon jt is, like those large tenticle mfkers in gb before the final boss or cocoon blast from a spider. Maybe naming changes wont work but pitentially making changes to cast bars as stabdard rather than needing addons and profiles on plater like of quazii, a lot of casuals use the base ui!!
I don't think Blizzard will ever realistically remove the timer. That's an essential part of M+. I do think having DPS check bosses is a good thing. I'd rather not time a key because the group can't kill a boss than bricking a key because someone forgot to kick.
I think the youre right. Having a way to get selective pieces of gear at a lower frequency would be pretty cool
And I think your last point is valid too. There are some mechanics that you don't know exist until someone tells you, or you go watch an in-depth detailed video on each dungeon. I mean, there is a dungeon journal that lets you view the bosses abilities, but there isn't one for the trash in the dungeon. And the trash in the dungeons are just as mechanic heavy and difficult as the bosses.
@@Demcokedup a problem with removing the timer is your best possible key is waiting for lust on pretty much everything
Me and friend were discussing to have like 3 charges on a key which give you 3x chances after the 3 charges are gone the key bricks i think that would be a happy medium with risk reward
@@lapzwansie26 that’s for sure a better system than now. And if one person wasn’t quite up to the key level and someone else was you would be able to stay with players for another try.
Exactly what i have been saying since BFA. I am fine with downgrading, but at least give us a couple of tries on the new achieved keylevel. Right now the problem is even bigger since there are artificial walls on +10 and +12. Like a +12 is a +13 or +14 scaled... We are smashing 11's with alts and getting smashed on 12's on our mains. It really would be nice to get more experience in on +12.
Issues-
Leavers- allow the clock to stop and fill if someone drops the group.
Timer- cause alot of the issues. Loot is tied to time. People leave because time fails.
Drop rates are trash- add a MF currency that allows a roll on a slot (similar to kadala from D3).
Holy priest here, I mainly run with a small group of friends and we pug anywhere from 2 to 3 DPS players. My biggest issue right now with mythic plus is gearing. It’s very difficult to gear and as a healer at some point, my heels are just not enough and so I need better gear in order to, increase my healing. However, based on the current system, it takes far too long and it’s far too punishing to try to earn the crest that you need to upgrade your gear. I’ve reached a point where I’m just not interested, I mainly play on the weekend and I just don’t have the time to invest to move forward anymore, unfortunately.
I really like your ideas for changes to the current mythic plus system, thanks for the video
Very very good points for both the casual and highend audiance
I’ll tell you what I’m doing when keystones don’t deplete. I’m starting my group. I’m giving it 2 pulls to see how good these people are.
If it’s good I’ll allow the group to continue.
If I’m not pleased I’m leaving the key and resisting it instantly.
I mean....I kinda feel like this already happens. The highest keys I've done is a +12 and I would say that 80% of the +12s I've done have disbanded at or before the 1st boss.
Primarily run in a group, but we frequently end up taking a pug member (and aren't terribly nitpicky with whom). Or whenever me and my bf go practically alone, there's going to be 3 pugs. Sometimes 2 if one of our friends can tag along.
The added time as a penalty for a death, I don't understand what they were thinking there. Very bad idea. Could've kept that as a flavor thing for MDI only, though.
Personally, not timing the key feels less of an issue, as the loot that drops isn't reduced. And changing it to that the crest's doesn't reduce any either, would be optimal. Key's downgrading from depletion? They should likely get rid of that, I feel, as it would make people (hopefully) less nervous with running their own keys. There will be less at stakes then.
Otherwise?
As someone who actively ran M+ in Legion, BfA and Shadowlands - and then took a couple of years off. To return in the war within. I'm thinking to myself, M+ is WAY better now, and it isn't honestly that difficult.
Players have gotten shittier though, and many have a jawdropping attitude issue, where they are completely unable to realize that the biggest problem that they have? In not being able to time keys, and find others to run with. Is in the majority of case (I've seen so far) their own fault.
I can say, based on my own anecdotal experience, that the typical complainers we've had in our groups, are truth be told. Causing most of the issues with trash packs and bosses. Doesn't effing know they have defensives, interrupts and other group helping tech that significantly increase the success rate if used. Tend to complain about "safer" pulls as well, when we slow down and adapt to their lack of ability. Like Jesus :facepalm:
We are extremely chill and forgiving with people making mistakes, everyone can (and will). But it is provocative to see the amount of whining little b*tches crying M+ is a horrible experience, when they themselves are a major root cause for them having such a bad time.
I do like most of your suggestions, I just don't think it would really fix that much. Not until people fix their attitude issues, and learn to self analyze.
This is great! Thanks for sharing. I agree. I don't want M+ to be easy. I want it to value my time more...if that makes sense? Making it easier is just going to be like what happened in Dragonflight where people are pushing +30 keys.
Myself who is currenting 2.7io playing a healer, I know when something is my fault whether it be lack of healing or a misplay, but I also constantly see people dying without the use of their defensives or DPS classes not using their decurses because they don't understand utility. But at the same time Legion and BFA didn't "require" DPS players to do anything other than DPS. So I think these players were already bad, it was just harder to tell back then. xD
@@Telindra I have the same anecdotal experience with my guildies. The worse the player the less they see mistakes in themselves. The best players in our guild are like 3.1k, when something goes wrong in the key and even if it wasn’t their mistake, they most of the time say “damn I could have done this, my bad” or something similar.
The players with 2-2.3k io in my guild are the ones blaming healers and saying they cannot pug in keys cause the randoms are so bad and always ruining their keys.
@@pokket_gaming yeah that makes sense, and I basically agree with you too. About most of the stuff you suggested in your video. Something which I feel Blizzard is bad at, when it comes to WoW, is giving players a reason to learn what utilities and spells they have in their toolkit. (and make them not forget about them xD).
I also feel that they aren't good at making things clear, in dungeons and raids, speaking about mechanics and dangerous mob abilities - where if you have, lets say your defensives off CD, can use in order to survive.
You basically need WA's and addons in order to "get trained" on the fly, with those things.
This I feel doesn't help to reduce the amount of (unnecessary) bads that are out there, who have a distorted view of _why_ they struggle, have a miserable time in pugs, etc. Basically blaming everyone else except themselves.
Could be true yes lmao
@@gooseg3822 ye exactly! Now there will be the odd one at 3k+ who is an absolute shit head, raging at the tiniest of thing, too. Where you sort of wonder. How, they managed to get that high score in the first place (more as in, how can someone stand this person for long enough, type of how?!). But most of the time, there's a lot less complaining and more owning up to mistakes. Without flaming and bad attitudes.
And even when you know mechanics, and how to play, man. Stuff can still happen. Momentary confusion, for example, so you make the most embarrassing type mistake.
Good points. If I could only have 1 change, it would be your last suggestion. It would really help the pug community with additional mob control.
You mentioned literally everything I’ve been saying to other players & wanting for so long now. Keys depleting to rage quitters is so unfair.
Sadly blizzard would never listen to the playerbase regarding any of this whatsoever. It’s like talking to a brick wall
Well I think one of the issues too is unless the "loudest" people on the internet are saying the same thing then there will likely not be any changes. And most of those people are in that top % and don't have the issues of everyday players. Of course this is just my opinion.
Things i would personally change
1-Crest drop should be the same, timing the key or not should be irrelevant
2-Remove valorstone
3-Add more rewards after 2.5k
4-Gilded should drop sooner or at least make it as a reward, once you reach let's say 2.7k Gilded drop from 7+ on your account, this will help with alts if you don't have a group to grind
5-Give a bonus reduction on crafting on your alts after you craft 3 times on the main, 50% would help a lot and encourage people to play more alts after they reach their goal on the main
6-Remove the penalty for failing a key, there is no reason for my key to go -1, this does not help at all
7-Remove the nonsense they did with AOE stuns and casting
Removing key depletion will fix alot.
However the number of low keys will drop significantly but making the game more alt friendly will fix that.
Even with Warbands, I'm finding it hard to maintain a Main and an alt as my main is no where near complete thanks to Mythic vault being 10 and the extremely high gate keeping this season
I agree to the "no deplete" change. But i think my priority would be to make healer-life easier and more fun.
I have 2 punishment ideas that Blizzard should consider implementing for m+ leavers.
1) I think leavers should have their own key stone depleted. If they don't have a key, then by leaving, they are automatically granted a +2. If they are on a +2 already and they leave, they should get a stacking debuff they counts towards a negative progress so when they do try to push their key, they have to time the key and based on the amount levels they would go up, the debuff subtracts from that value. So if they have 3 stacks of a debuff, and they 3 chest a key, they clear the debuff, but the key level stays the same.
2) the other alternative is that if you leave, you don't deplete, but you get a debuff that stacks based on leaves or maybe higher key levels have a curse with more levels of the stack for leaving. This devalues the level of rewards you get from a certain key level. So if you have 3 stacks of the debuff and did a +8 for some gilded crests, you only get runed crests because your rewards level is now as if you timed a +5. And that also applies to your vault.
Along with these punishments they could have some sort of icon showing if players are known leavers. The punishment would only apply to the first person to leave the group during the key. They should also add in a vote to forfeit button that way the group can agree to disband without any consequences. Maybe besides a timer lockout from doing that same key again that way coordinated groups can't exploit that. I know it's not perfect but neither is the current system. It will be a work in progress to iron out everything overtime but it's better than doing nothing at all, which is what we are currently dealing with.
Nah I'm not sticking around in a trap party just because jimmy the glue eater didnt wanna bother with learning his rotation.
@MrCarlWax with the vote to forfeit button, a majority vote will allow you to disband without punishment. M+ is not a unique expedient. Play valorant or league and you will know that you commonly deal with this same thing or worse, inters and griefers. That doesn't mean that the game shouldn't punish you for abandoning a ranked game. M+ dungeons also tend to be faster than many league or Valorant games. So the argument that you don't want your time wasted can't really be prioritized. It is the consequence for participating in a competitive game mode.
If you are allowed to choose what dungeon you prog you'll run into the same issue that Throne and liberty had. Tanks will do one set of dungeons for loot, healers will do another.
I don't think I agree with this, maybe at a lower keys. But you don't do anything above a +10 for loot. I think you would see specific classes farming specific dungeons for the loot but only at lower keystone levels.
the level of keys at which people are "doing them for loot" is very low and not challenging.
I disagree, strenuously. First, I am a tank and pug, but exclusively in a community that enforces strict player behavior (hint: that's the solution, this is a community problem not a systems problem). If no keys deplete, you will not solve any problems, but create a whole new set of problems. Players will still hit walls that their skill cannot overcome, but will be convinced that its the other players in the group that are the issue, but now without forcing to go back and relearn things. No keys being depleted means there will be ZERO pugs in the low keys, which means new players won't be able to do M+ at all. No with no natural deflation of keys, players will be generally forced into higher key levels they can't complete (unless they manually drop their key, which players rarely want to do), which means it WILL be harder for the average player to fill their vault.
However, I do agree that dungeon completion rewards need to be adjusted, not hard to calculate repair costs and should at least pay that. Incentivize people to complete the dungeon, that's a LOT different than giving no consequences if they fail a dungeon.
I'd consider no key depletion if it's limited, maybe IF your vault key is half your highest level from the previous week.
That is a very good point that I did not consider. Thanks for sharing! I think that you're right, there would be less smaller keys as the season went on making it more difficult for new players to find groups. Maybe the key you get in vault every week always starts at a +2. It just never depletes.
Thanks again for disagreeing but having some solid points.
2 things I don't like about M+ is key depletion and affixes. The latter just bugs me and feels more like a slog to deal with than actually an enjoyable challenge. I'm all for difficulty and keeping players on their toes in elite content like this, and the flow with a good dungeon group is thrilling and is the main reason I keep coming back to it.... but I'd rather failing the mechs becomes more lethal in higher keys, which requires you to understand the dungeon and mobs well, instead of "You know this boss fight well, but now during the fight, also destroy or collect a couple of floating purple orbs" - just wish they'd get rid of affixes altogether.
Good video, thanks for making it. I agree that Blizz is taking much too long to exact change on this gamemode which causes some of the quickest burnout. Delves has been such a breath of fresh air because of the accessibility. Making the changes you put here wouldn't "fix" M+ enough though as I really do think it is a broken gamemode and will need more love than a few tweaks.
I agree that it will probably need a bit more love than I stated, however, in my opinion delves aren't as keys.
The big issue is that m+ is too hard for the REWARD system it offers. No one likes the crest system. You complete a +10-12, which is quite challenging to the average player, only to get a hero piece of gear if you’re LUCKY to even get a piece of loot at the end of a dungeon.
They still refuses to understand that the player base nowadays are not the same it was 20 yearsd ago. Theres no new players almost, we are the same, older, with less time, less patience, less addiction. I only log to run M+, 3,1k tank. Its been miserable, i did all 11s very fast and from that point forward, its pure frustration. Not joy at all.
I 100% agree with this! M+ this season has felt so bad! Great video!
I have to say I for some reason enjoy the season very much. I enjoy the slower progression with gear, which makes me enjoy my main for longer.
I know this is against the general sentiment.
2 changes I would like to see most in the game:
• cemeteries at every boss (in raid as well)
It shouldn’t be a skillgap to know when to release and when not. And running back 2 minutes after already getting a 1:15 deduction cause of deaths is just stupid and boring.
• scaling of keys should be 10% dmg and 20% health
This would make for much more exciting gameplay and the focus would get much more to master you class, rotation and dmg optimisation rather than having to know which of the 3 casts every mob does is lethal and having to use every 2nd global for a dispel or utility in general.
I definitely agree that the slower progression is better. If I had the best gear in the game by week 2 what would I be working towards if not io score?
Really good point though. haha Should not be a skill gap to know where to release. haha
Ask melee DPS about all the ground effects. Would rather see more advanced mob combat mechanics than dodging swirlies.
If there is a hell, It's full of nothing but ads.
I really like your idea about not have keys get depleted. Seems like such a simple compromise to make which would get more people of all skill levels back in Mplus. I play with a mix of guildies (fewer and fewer these days however) and pugs. It is far, far less enjoyable for me this time than in DF. I end up just doing really low keys or no keys at all
\
there is too much unavoidable dmg ... so basically that is just to cuck healers so much... i would rather see alot more avoidable dmg, becuase as a dps i cant do much about unavoidable dmg and it feels really bad
Youre right, I agree. But they need to find a balance. If everything is avoidable then the skilled players wont even bring a healer if they can mitigate or avoid all the damage. You have to keep healers relevant; which was one of the main reasons for the tank nerfs at the beginning of the expac.
If only blizzard would actually care
i gave youa like because i agree. get rid of key depletion. i'm currently 2k IO, and key depletion gives me anxiety and makes it not fun.
I enjoy the M+ experience this season. I enjoy the challenge. I don't think Blizzard should be responsible for peoples availability and their friend list.
True, very valid point.
I agree that keys should not deplete!
I only have the availability to play 3-6 hours a week and i find this to be the easiest most accessible season I've played
13/14 depletes are killing my motivation to PUG. it's just too time consuming to push it back up with worse players each key level you go down .
npc casters real pain i aggre that too hard
Good take, I agree
HTey depletion is a must! and the gear after healing or tanking and you get nothing after all the extra work you put in is fucking rude! BFA it was 4 for time key and 3 for a not timed and a chance for a 5th. delves are boring and Im fine dong them but I need the gear from keys!
As a "top 0.1% player" that primarily plays with a full premade team, I pretty much agree with all of your thoughts. The system has grown too toxic and the complaints can be heard throughout the entire community. My thoughts:
- Keystone depletion: Absolutely get rid of it. Also get rid of all penalties for not timing a key. Why receive less crests for not timing? Shouldn't you at least be rewarded for completing the dungeon instead of ragequitting? Imo rewards should scale with key level, e.g. 5 crests + 1 crest per level and 200g + 100g per level. Also 2 loot items + 1 additional item at every level divisible by 5. Sidenote: Can we please have some form of better gear progression as M+ only players other than just weekly vault? And a loot-targeting / bad-luck-protection system so we can get those pesky trinkets or weapons we so badly need from raid.
- Making it like Delves: Not completely sure about this one, making keys completely spammable would make M+ very similar to raid, where you just progress an encounter (in this case a dungeon) over and over and over again until you finally do it. It would take a lot of the variety out of the M+ gameplay loop. E.g. Dorki said on the PoddyC that playing TGP/MDI feels 100% completely different from M+ and really more like Raid. I'm not sure I would like this to be the case. But I agree that we should be able to target dungeons that we want to play better. My idea would be a currency similar to Flightstones (capped, but infinitely earnable). Let's say e.g. for every 5 dungeons you play you can change your key to the dungeon you want.
- True, 15s death timer sucks. Remove it completely (including the 5s penalty that was there before) and place a spawn point after every boss. It already sucks to die and it's often in the middle of your cooldowns anyways. No need to be punished with 15s death timer and a tilting, way too long runback.
- Groupwide oneshots: I would even argue there is too many oneshots in general, period. The meta has shifted from healers keeping people alive to everyone having to keep themselves alive with def CDs and healers are just there to top people up so they survive in combination with their def cd. This has made healing a hugely unsatisfying role and it's why we see less and less people opt to play healers. Dungeons are fun when you speed through them. High key pushing is fun when you maximize every single pull you can do in a dungeon, not when you just hold W and pull every pack individually and if nobody dies then hooray key is timed. There need to be less oneshot mechanics and Blizzard need to start challenging people with the timer, not with mechanics, again.
Trash mobs should mostly be trash. At the moment, every trash fight feels like a boss fight with all different mechanics you have to know about or you just wipe.
And yeah, like you say, failed mechanics should primarily be punished with slowdowns, and not necessarily deaths / complete wipes.
- Devaluing Stops: 100% agree, this change has made my team's life miserable. So many mobs require 3-4 players to kick them nowadays, it feels horrible to play. I was also of the opinion that AoE stops were too OP in keeping a mob pack completely CC'd, but this was not the solution. Instead, the CD of AoE stops should have been increased. As a bear i for example have 2 AoE stops, each on a 30s CD. This could easily be increased to 60s or even 90s each. Also, AoE stuns feel terrible and should have their relative value increased. Why does Shockwave only stun for 2 seconds? The stun literally ends when you press your next Global. All AoE stuns should be increased to 4s or even 5s. And Stun DR needs to be changed for PvE, a complete immunity is crap. DR should go like 100% -> 70% -> 40% -> 10% and then stay at 10%, so that each stun is at least still a stop, and isn't just immuned completely.
Another topic I think is very important:
- Queueing System: imagine a world where in LoL players would build their perfect team for every match, and there was no matchmaking, only team vs team. The game would be dead, as people would only ever start games after waiting for the in-their-eyes perfect team comp, with a champion they like or perceive as meta on every single role, and only players of equal or higher elo than themselves. This is the system we live in in WoW. And with the depletion system and all the punishments that come with not timing keys, players are even incentivized to use the system like this to minimise their risk. It's absolutely dystopian. WoW needs a proper matchmaking system. Let keyholders determine a lot of the parameters, like minimum score / ilvl requirement, or whether they care about having a Bloodlust/Battleres always on their team. But don't let them determine all of the parameters, don't let them pick only meta specs for every single key. Also, please don't call this "Solo Queue", as people should absolutely be able to queue with whatever team size they want and not feel like theyre forced to leave their friends behind so they can play. Then, introduce a "Forfeit" vote for keys needing all 5 votes for the first 50% of the dungeon's timer, 4 votes for the last 50%, and 3 votes after time has run out. Only 10 minutes after time is out players should be allowed to leave the key without receiving a leaverbuster punishment. Leaverbuster is literally a thing in LFR and in Normal & Heroic dungeon queues, modes where it does not really matter at all. But it's not a thing for M+ where it would be of utmost importance? Obviously with such a system, reports for Griefing would need to be taken seriously, as you don't want some angry troll just ninja-pulling permanently just to force the group to forfeit / run out the timer so they dont get leaverbusted.
I think if nothing else changes, I would identify a proper matchmaking system as the single most important thing to deal with the current issue of players just ... not getting to play.
I think the change in the playerbase would be insane, suddenly you would see a much greater variety of specs, and i think the M+ gameplay loop would become a lot less toxic for everyone involved.
Yes.... wish I could triple like this comment. Especially agree with the comments about healers and trash, it's less about the healer and more everyone having to see defensives for survivability. Also nice flex on the 0.1%, that's a level I couldn't play at!
Thanks so much for taking the time to write this out. I wholehearted agree with everything you said. The queue system you talked about too would be incredible. I could make a whole YT vid responding to this comment. I wish I had more of an audience to share this with others.
@@pokket_gaming thanks for taking the time to read & reply! :) Of course it would be great to have a bigger reach, but nevertheless it's important to still voice your concerns. In my algorithm I've seen multiple small creators criticise the M+ system lately. It adds up and spreads the sentiment that we need change throughout the community. And eventually Blizzard will need to do something about it - just like they did with finally improving/removing affixes after the community complained about them for so long. :P
I really hope Blizzard notices this issue soon and acknowledges it so that we can work towards a better M+ future!
You hit the nail on the head with them designing dungeons around top 1% of players. I agree with this wholeheartedly, and it also extends to their class design. Disc priests and aug evokers are crap in lower keys/ easier content because the top players abuse them in high end.
I mean, healers are there basically as decoration in lower keys. Everything dies so fast and does basically no damage.
@@FannerofFlames That is not the case since the M+ revamp, and a spec shouldn't be dead weight in the hands of lower end players just because it's too good on the higher end.