Ep. 50. Bipoles and Dipoles for Dolby ATMOS. Good or Bad for Home Theater? Home Theater Gurus.
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- Work Against your Dolby Atmos? How Bipoles and Dipoles work for Dolby Atmos. Are Bipoles and Dipoles Bad for Dolby Atmos. Home Theater Gurus.
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I truly enjoy your videos. It’s very clear that you simply want to help people get the most out of their home theatre, (rather than a sales pitch or ego trip like some content out there). Such genuine and logical information.
Keep up the superb content, Steven. 👏👏👏😁
Thanks Dan! and Thanks for watching!!
Thanks Steve - I have made so many "tweaks" to my system already based on your videos that have positively improved the sound. - Cheers!
Thanks Gary! Thanks for the feedback too, makes it all worth it!
Hi. I want to give my bipoles the best position in a 5.2.4 Setup. I have tested the bipoles at about 90° and 110° at he sidewalls. And it's ok...
My couch is about 1,20m from the backwall. I think a better choice is to put the bipoles at the backwall maybe 120°-130°. So the "inside" sweeter can aim to the MLP and the "outside" sweeter can reflect to the sidewalls for the sideseats...
What do you think about this?
I have some bipole PSB from 2000s I got on offerUp, and they are awesome - I can listen to Multichannel mode to listen music around living/kitchen. They are also awesome for surround effects (Super realistic sounds with aluminum tweeters) - I did use my Sony SSC CS5s, which are great, but not as detailed for surrounds
They are also mounted flat against the wall, little in front toward listener and outward
Great explanation. My surround speakers are considered to be Triaxial. Theres a monopole speaker (tweeter/woofer) facing the LP and then there is a 3” full range driver at a 45 degree on both sides. Those 3” drivers can be disabled but I’ve been lazy about it, bc they are inside my columns. My rear speakers are regular monopole speakers so everything seems to points to changing my surrounds to monopole only.
Sounds like M&K
@@Espiritiv Yea, it’s just like the M&K speakers, but mine are Arendal Sound. I feel like they were definitely influenced by M&K.
At this moment I still have dipole for side surrounds. Not ideally for Atmos, but........ lots of content is still 5.1. or 7.1 So for now I'm very pleased listening to it. Indeed placement is not that precise, but the immersive experience is pretty satisfying. It's all about the placement and the possibilities to place them in YOUR room. I have only a 7.1.2 so just 2 height speakers in front, so no movement or placing above my head, but a wall of sound. It's always a compromise living rooms. Except if you own a designated HT room
I do a lot of living room designs and often we make very few compromises and they can rival a dedicated room. In the end, if you love the sound then enjoy it. The video is informational to help people understand how they work. I've done designs for guys that had bipoles and didn't want to invest in more speakers so we used them. Make the best of what you have and enjoy it. Just understand the compromises.
Thanks for the video. I suppose it should be noted that Dolby endorses BIPOLE explicitly in their October 2016 Dolby Atmos For Home Theater document on page 5, saying "An ideal listener-level setup will include monopole or bipole speaker designs. Dolby does not recommend the use of dipole speakers for use at the listener level; the highly diffuse sound patterns of dipole speakers interfere with the accurate positioning of sounds in the three-dimensional soundstage that is Dolby Atmos."
The version I used was Dec 2018. I guess they altered it some. I do like the fact that it had a good reason why vs the newer version just saying not recommended like the 2018 version.
Triad recommended bipoles with low ceilings. I can't recall the paper but it was an official one. Bit of a head scratcher to me, because while Atmos speakers are supposed to be wide dispersion, a bipole is a bit unique. Of course Triad doesn't say anything anymore, now it's just part of a big company.
Anyone can write an official paper. Many times they just follow others blindly and the guy that actually designed the speakers and understands dispersion and how a speaker has to be placed to work as intended doesn't even work there, was hired out or moved on etc. Some of the worst designs I've ever seen were done by speaker manufactures. MLP at a null, Mains 20 degrees (apart), screen size of 30 degrees wide. I wish I was making that up.
Good topic. I agonized over this and ultimately decided on Arendal's "tri-axial" 1961 surround between my two rows. Will be testing in the next couple weeks as I finish the room build and we'll see how it sounds.
Thanks Adam, Testing is always fun!
Shall we use bipolar speakers as rear surrounds in a 7.1.2 layput
Just found your channel. Love your video. Super informative
Dipoles, like Paradigm have, work great when the seating is against the back wall. Like you said, they become directional, and many basement setups have a long couch or seating along one wall. In that type of seating, I'd highly recommend bipolar speakers.
I'd like to see a video on how/whether to do Atmos with sofa against back wall.
@@Lacking_something You can do it. It's how I have mine set up, for the time being. It's all Klipsch and I'm running it all off my Marantz av8805a processor, mm8077, mm8003 (7 & 8 channel amps). My rear surrounds are the RP-250S, front Height/Atmos channels are RP-500sa, and my side and rear H/Atmos are my good ol' RSX-4 black speakers because you can attach them in a number of ways. My rear are screwed to the back wall, right below the ceiling so they're more overhead than behind me but they still sound as if they were 5 ft behind me. Try following the guide of equal distance between all 3 sets of height and you'll be fine. Hope that helps.
Paradigm traditionally uses adaptive dipoles, where the bass drivers are in phase and tweeters are not. Possible that these could be used as heights.
I have 4 bi-pole speakers in a 10 x 10 bedroom. They work great, create a huge soundstage.
Yep they can sound very good.
I’m a big fan of bi-pole as rear surrounds. I get that people are directional sound sources but the dispersed sound from a bipole sounds more real to me.
I got bipoles for my side surround speakers in a small room (18*10*8ft). Not ideal but work well. Monopoles for my height speakers. Sometimes we gotta compromise given budget and room setup. I agree though, bipoles for height channels isn't a good idea.
Bipoles definitely have their place and i even use them from time to time, it's just important to understand how to use them and understand the issues when not used as intended.
Man the practicality of the information you're giving is really refreshing. It feels like the information is grounded in measurable elements but mainly easily remembered because it's explained in a great order and repeat core information multiple times. Props to all your videos super grateful of your content!
Thanks for the great reply and thanks for watching!
What if you can't place speakers to the sides but only behind and above the seated position?
Great information as always, thanks Steven!
Thanks Barrett!
Hi when you was talking about the ceiling speakers (dipole ) with the sound being fired in different directions ,then all sudden you say this is how you need them ,with both firing towards you ,so is this with a mono pole type , or what 🤷♂️ also what about tripole speaker , say the Miller & kreisel type
Ideally you'll have a monopole for atmos aiming like explained toward the end of the video. Dolby also states this is preferred.
@@hometheatergurus Hi thanks for that, im looking to buy miller & kreisel tripole speakers , but a little unsure, have you tried such speakers , I assume this type of speaker fires from the front ,and sides ,I believe the sides are out off phase, but maybe you could make it clearer to understand 🙈
It’s hard to imagine that anyone would think of anything other than monopoles for ceiling speakers.
Re narrow rooms, bipole surrounds all the way, but mounted somewhat higher on the walls. I’m using Axiom QS10’s, which are quadrupoles, in an 11 foot wide media room, and the effect is sensational (with M3 in-ceiling Atmos speakers for a 7-2-4 system.)
The problem is many installers and dealers don't understand how they work and think you can just put them anywhere and that they help with proximity and think they give better coverage. They have no idea it only works on axis as they just don't understand how they work. There's a huge lack of understanding speaker dispersion and how speakers radiate in the dealer and even design world. I have a background in speaker design although not at a pro level but It helps to design much better rooms than those that don't understand it.
People see an installer do it or a dealer tells them that and think it's correct.
Yet well regarded designers like Anthony Grimani use BIPOLE speakers overhead when the ceiling distance is 8 feet or less, and Triad (a well regarded manufacturer) recommends it as well when the ceiling speakers cannot be toed in, because the dispersion is wide enough that a down firing speaker couldn't otherwise cover the seating area. To be fair, this is a hack that Dolby doesn't endorse.
@@nattydj8646 not sure if you watched the video as this is covered, it's not really a wider dispersion used as atmos.
Nobody watches movies etc. with their heads a few feet from the ceiling. Unless this is (a sequel to?) Being John Malkovich. In the case of _side_ surrounds in a narrow room, it needs to be bipolar at least. I’ve been working with this stuff for over 30 years, and direct radiating surrounds pointed at your head from a few feet away just doesn’t work. In the case of ceiling speakers, that’s not an issue in my experience, go ahead and “objectify”.
Great video that raised a lot of good points. Just one question. With the monopoles aiming at the opposite end seat, would you also tilt the front ATMOS speakers back, and the back ones forward?
You can to accommodate two rows and get both in the speakers dispersion (this can sometimes be impossible) but keep in mind like mains we need to be on axis vertically as much as possible. The toe in (like mains) is what can really open up their sound stage which happens with horizontal toe in adjustments.
what about using bipolar as the side surrounds where the speakers are running parallel to the wall and bipolar for the rear where the speakers are running parallel. I am running Klipsch RS 42s for the side and rear. Would a mono pole be better?
The video specifically discussed all of this.
Where would you suggest that I mount a pair of Definitive Technology BPX bipolar speakers in a Dolby Atmos/DTS X Pro 15-channel (9.2.6) surround sound setup? Front wide wall, side surrounds wall, or back surrounds wall speakers?
This video could have been shortened to 60 seconds by simply stating:
Due to the Advent of object-based Atmos imaging bipole and dipole speakers should no longer be used.
It really is just that simple.
Some people don't wanna just be told do this because. Some like to have a ball park idea how things work and why and understand the compromises. They want to learn more about their hobby. You could break it it up into 13 60 second episodes..:).
I’m thinking Atmos is probably awesome IF you have perfect room, with the specific equipment, specifically placed, managed by specific audio processing, and playing a movie recorded in Atmos. If any of those are off then you just have a high school band all playing at the same time.
I have an 11x15 room with a projector and a 65” tv and a 5.1 system that works well, and adding ceiling speakers is almost impossible, but not impossible. It would take a lot of effort and money to add 4 speakers up there, and there really would only be room for two. However, I am having a hard time seeing that it would be worth it. Most of my existing library is DTS at best, the new 4k movies I buy are duplicates of movies I already own in DVD and Blu-ray, and new stuff is streamed using questionable codecs and compression. This reminds me of all the effort I went through for 3D; it was gee-whiz but it wasn’t at all worth it.
If I were trying to recreate a movie theater, I think I’d first start with finding a good buttered popcorn.
This isn't a gimmick like 3d glasses. It's a substantial upgrade when done correctly. Probably 30 percent of the rooms I design are in living rooms. It's all about placement and the room does not have to be a perfect box. It also doesn't have to be expensive. If you have poor speaker placement you'll get poor results.
You have to decide yourself how much you care about audio.
@@hometheatergurus I care a great deal about audio. However, I’m not charging down the path without knowing where I’m going and why. I’m going to measure a lot more than once before I start cutting holes in my ceiling!
It may very well be that Atmos doesn’t really translate or scale-down well for rooms smaller than a certain size, or for rooms without specific seating locations. It’s not as simple as sticking four speakers on the ceiling. Deciding how many speakers and where is a puzzle unique to every room, especially when the room is small like mine. I am questioning whether it’s even worth opening the puzzle box.
My current setup sounds very good and is calibrated well into my (small) room. Adding two rows of ceiling speakers would be too much, since in my room the seating is on two couches on either side of the room, and a row of three theater chairs along the back wall. Two speakers up top would be more articulate but the Atmos specs call for four. I am simply suggesting that there may be times when there simply isn’t enough room to effectively implement certain speaker scheme. A clear 5.1 seems better than a muddy 5.1.4 or hobbled 5.1.2, right? Having said all that, it could still be worth implementing and tweaking a scaled down version if there was enough Atmos content that was consistently implemented, which is why I’m wondering if I’d be chasing a moving target.
I watched a podcast with an audio engineer who mixed movie sound for “theatrical release” and down mixed for “near field” playback. I got the impression that even in the industry there was a lot of interpretation and competing mixing schemes, and that only amplified when mixed down to consumer media and streaming was a crapshoot. I’m trying to avoid a crapshoot or at least understand all the variables and compromises before I consider cutting holes…
When discussing these types of things, I see a lot of quick, emphatic, and absolute responses, but with little situation specific discussion. “Atmos is awesome, if you do it right!” Is not a very actionable declaration.
I’ve read the same reviews and articles as most of the posters, but that doesn’t really help me understand what I will be gaining, losing, and compromising given my specific reality, and if, to use a term I hate, “the juice is worth the squeeze”
I have an 11x15 living room in a 5.1 setup with the seating being two couches along the long wall on either side of room. The “MLP” is about 3’ off the back wall. Even if my Yamaha A4A supported 4, with the size of the room and the unusual MLP’s I don’t see a way to add 4 ceiling speakers. I could do a 5.1.2 setup that my A4A supports, but I don’t know if being able to “play” Atmos is worth the effort if I am unwilling to change my seating arrangement and only have 2 ceiling speakers.
@@AV84USA see ep 49. If you need help I do design home theaters and even in living rooms so feel free to email me for info on that service.
@@hometheatergurus how could you possibly “design” my living room when you can’t even answer a query about if, in your experience, going with 2 Atmos overheads is worth the trouble, or could potentially be worth the trouble? I have a DIFFUSE for main listening position (MLP) in a small room and have no experience with Atmos, which is why I posed my question, hoping for perhaps an experienced viewer to share their thoughts without simply regurgitating Dolby standards or “angles” If I bought a pair of Paradigm reference in ceiling Atmos speakers, mounted them, calibrated them, then I would know firsthand if I thought it was “worth it” or if I’d spent a lot of effort and just made my articulate 5.1 “muddy”
I wasn’t attempting to get no charge consulting services.
Edit: I’m not trying to sound pissy. I am fully prepared for the answer to be “no, if you can’t do Atmos right, it’s not worth it, regardless of your receiver offering ‘mostly’ Atmos with 5.x.2” or “your seating positions are too spread apart to notice “objects””
I'm using a RP-502S II for my 2 surround sides. I liked them more then when I used my RP-600M IIs. The 600s aimed right in my ear BUT the detail was more. 502IIs toss sound & I can't tell where it's coming from
Bipoles definitely have their place and i even use them from time to time, it's just important to understand how to use them and understand the issues when not used as intended.
@hometheatergurus It's not that serious, dude. I put the speaker up, and sound shoots out from left to right & sound is going everywhere like I wanted. I'm not going to get evicted or be late on my mortgage bc im using a speaker "the way dolby" says I shouldn't 😂😂. Can't take ourselves too seriously
Could you not just build a bubble of speakers around you. Like in a Pod. Something you get into and shut the door. Like an Atmos Pod. I would like to see you do this, and use small cheap speakers.
Another great video, thanks bud. Now I shall take this info to AVS and pick a fight.
Nah, they're a very helpful bunch. I only pick fights with Cables Guys. Because they deserve it.
Ohh boy, you're going to stir the pot! 😂
Thanks man. It is a clear and understandable piece of advice. I saved a lot of money thanks to you. Unfortunately, I have a challenging cinema/audio room placed in an attic. I did a lot of acoustic treatment in this room and stereo music sounds great but movies, placing atmos, surround speaker, it kills me it is almost impossible. I wish I had your knowledge. Thanks again.
Thanks. Don't forget I do room design and zoom consultanting. If u need help my contact info is in the video descriptions.
Thanks for answering my question I feel honored lol! I learn so much from your videos and you have helped me improve my small home theater 10 fold. Thank you so much
You're welcome. It was a good question that will help a lot of people. I'm really glad i could be a part of making your system better!!!
What about the scenario where the couch is against the wall and the bipoles are mounted on the wall behind the sofa, a feet above ear height? How would they be for 5.1 in a living room?
Surrounds are to the sides not behind you. Speakers behind you are added in a 7.1. Sometimes you just can't setup properly so do the best you can and if it sounds good, enjoy. It's just good to understand compromises when we make them.
Really appreciate the effort
MGTOW = 1 SEAT = PERFECT SOUND
What about bipoles overhead in a .2 configuration, oriented longitudinally (ie. rotated 90° from how you had them in this video)? Dolby would have a .2 pair *just* above and ahead of the MLP. So that the most likely reflecting surface is the floor ahead of the listeners, and possibly low on the back wall.
My thinking here is, I can power only 7 channels, so how do I smear the overhead longitudinally while preserving lateral L/R definition?
What about Tri poles like M&K SS300?
Those are intended to be used as rears and work like bipoles. with Atmos we will ideally have mono poles even for the bedalyer but that is a case by case decision. For actual atmos speakers, no.
Best hands-on room creation channel going, well done man.
Which would you recommend for “on-ceiling” speakers, sloped/angled face(svs prime elevation, klipsch rp-500sa) or book shelves?
Also for your preferred choice, what to specifically look for I.e. imaging, soundstage, horizontal dispersion, range, etc.
Thanks Leon. On ceiling, that's a tough one. I personally want to aim at or past the MLP (cross aiming). Many like prime elevation need a mount to get enough angle to even be close to acceptable for ceiling mount. You do need to pay attention to dispersion but a wide dispersion will not trump aiming.
@@hometheatergurus awesome, thank you. 👍
Please I need your advice
I currently have 5, 1, 2 and a surround speaker is Bipole Speakers
I want to upgrade soon to 7.1.2. Should I buy Bookshelf?
I use bipole for the surround and the rear surround as I have the back of the room open and closed off by a divider, it sounds AWESOME!! It sounds great since my fronts are so powerful and then simple directional for atmos. Thanks for the science behind it and the video.
I'm slowing building my theater room...I have 6 Def tach SR9080, 2 on each side for both rows and 2 for the rears...I also went with 6 sonance 6" speakers for the atmos. I your opinion is this a good set up so far or no...I also order the 9080 for towers and center, and adding two in wall subs, but not sure if I want to wait on the svs or go a different route. What's your thoughts?
What about using tripole speakers as surrounds in a 5.2.4 atmos setup?
The closest surround is about 60cm away from the person and the furtherest is probably 1.5m.
Im not sure if i should use my tripole because theyre so close or if I should use standard bookshelf speakers.
I'm still trying to decide what to build for Atmos but I'm thinking keep it simple and just a very basic monopole.
For the rears, I have the problem of the rear row, it's only a few inches off the back wall. One thought was to build an open baffle dipole mounted over the rear row placing that row in the dipole null. The rear row would hear mostly the rear wave bouncing off the back wall but the middle and front row would hear the front wave and to them it would be the same as if it were a monopole. Another thought was to build an inverted ground plane CBT against the back wall using the ceiling as the ground plane. The full output drivers are farther away and off axis to the rear row and the attenuated end drivers are closer to their heads. They really shouldn't hear them any louder than the middle or front row. There is just no easy way to deal with a rear row so close to the back wall. Of course the back row is an overflow row, 99% of the time only the middle row will be used.
I don't know,my first Dolby Atmos system,I got it right, with the challenges of the room being small and it's my bedroom,so to make such mistakes
I came across boston acoustic 575x dipole speaker surround by accident at the goodwill for $15.00.
Sound awesome a lot more highs.
Would love a video on how you setup an array for surround speakers covering two rows.
I cannot afford a processor with a channel count above 16 channels so I decided to install a monopole speaker at the side of each row but they are connected to the same channel on the receiver.
I am sure this is a big no no as it will causing smearing but other than adding a miniDSP to of the pairs to add delay I will have to compromise with a single speaker trying to cover two rows which we know isn't going to happen.
You have an array. With Atmos it's much more difficult as aiming is key but you've got it. Yes they add comb filtering but so do any speakers playing the same frequencies like mains when they play the same music in both, or mains with no center set to phantom. Enjoy your room as i'm sure it sounds great.
@@hometheatergurus Good to know, thanks for the reply
@@hometheatergurus can you make a video on array set up for 2 rows of seating and details on angles and placement of those 2 arrays when you have front wide and Atmos. Thank you.
Hate it when they smear the rear😝
That ain't no joke!!!! 😬
Any issues with framing an angle in my circling just to hold my atmos speakers? This way they won’t fire straight down?
Angle in my ceiling not circle
if the speakers are aimed at the MLP you're doing great so yep building an angled area works, it may be cheaper to but an angled speaker but it works.
I'm really looking at something from Arendal and Chane, they have VESA mount capability so I can buy a small TV mount and have full swivel capability for Atmos speakers! Haha seems pretty cool and I think it'll work out well.
The Triads I use have 3/8" threaded inserts so bracket mounting is easy but yeah any way to aim those others should work very well.
Well that sucks. I'm running 4 Paradigm ADP-390's dipoles for my surrounds...
I have a pair of ADP 450s I'm using as heights, mainly because they were already there and mounted close to the ceiling as one does with ADPs. The only issue I found was (and the video addresses this) is the smearing with those and the bed layer surrounds. My solution was to move the BLS closer together, and away from the sidewalls to separate the two axes. Not ideal, but high quality and works well.
If I don’t have room for 2 rear surround speakers, does it work to use one of these speakers to get a similar sound? I have an open concept with a large opening where the rear right speaker would go.
If you can't do 7.1 just stick with 5.1. 5.1 can sound great and bipoles can sound great and send energy to the rear wall and get reflected back and sound great but you still have to treat the back wall or should. However with it open back there there's no wall to reflect it. You also want the left side to sound similar in symmetry to the right side with similar reflections. A lack of reflections can be mimicked with Absorption.
Do you design rooms for people as I want a 5.2.4 atmos set up
Hey Andrew. Yes I design an average of 100 rooms a year. My email is in the video description near the top.
What speaker brands/models are available to pull off the in-ceiling cross firing? I've never seen one with a drastic off angle degree. Most I've seen are 15-20°.
My klipsch in ceiling angle to what seems like almost 50 degrees cross.
You usually need 60 plus degrees to hit it. I use Triad 9 sat which has a 45 degree baffle with a laser guided tweeter than can hit over 70 degrees off axis. One reason I became a Triad dealer when I began designing was due to them having so many speaker options that other brands don't. They also have inwall wides and every speaker in the room can have the same drivers.
@Home Theater Gurus thx. I totally didn't think about the tweeter being able to adjust more than the in-ceiling structure.
Another great video!!!!!! Thanks for everything!!!
Thanks David.
I use dipol for front hight for atmos it sounds good
Thanks for watching Thomas!