I actually really like the idea of the Fists deciding to maintain control over it in name and keep a few marines on board at all times, but asking the imperial navy to take over staffing and running it. Because really seems a waste to have space marines manning a spaceship when a normal human could do that.
@@GuthanSlayer read the Imperial Fists codex. The survivors were grateful that the Imperial Fists were the ones who got them off planet and singlehandedly held off the entire Chaos fleet so they could escape, and asked the Imperial Fists if they could reside on the Phalanx.
I'm surprised they don't have an abnormally large mortal force in it too. There's a limit to how many space marines per chapter but seeing how the Wolves/Templars get special treatment because of reasons, why not let the Fists have the Phalanx crewed by millions of humans?
thats a waste of a space marine, while marines should be capable to being amazing at space warfare their true value lies regular ol on the ground warfare not sitting in some massive heap that is slowly breaking down.
@@GuthanSlayer that's silly. Where do you think a small number of elite fighters like Marines could possibly make a bigger difference than ship boarding actions?
Just pull a Black Templar or Space Wolf. *Cramming a mass of yellow supersoldiers in a room* "What are you talking about? Of COURSE the Fists are codex compliant! Have a look here, there's a thousand active Marines in ten companies at parade formation right there, waiting for your inspection! Don't mind these rooms filled with Astartes... Uh, gear! We haven't used them in a while!"
The Phalanx is a Fist vessel, by the Emporers own words. That said, it would also make sende to have it fully crewed. Have each loyalist legion chapters allowed to raise an extra company to send to it in a century or so, with many more loyalist chapters allowed to send a squad of marines, the sisters of silence sending a contingent to help deal with Psykers, and the Custodies sending a force to help provide onboard security, with imperial navy forces sent to help crew it. Do that, the Phalanx returns to full power and can be the Empires big stick in the galactic game of whack a mole.
Probably one of the best takes yet though I’d just suggest a different path. Same thing except ALL loyalist chapters get to raise an extra company and they send them to Terra to guard the outer reaches of the palace and have them on a rotation while the Imperial Fists get to fully garrison the Phalanx with a full shield company of custodes and squads or even whole extra companies from all of Dorns successors but the Fists maintain full control bar committing heresy. Not that that will ever happen but I truly think GW needs to be more liberal with the numbers for space marine chapters now. Not going back to legion strength but I think in the very least the founding chapters should have exactly or close to 10,000 marines each
This is a very cool idea but I see just one problem the gene-seed mutations: some chapters the first to come to my mind was black dragons are very secretive of their gene-seed and its mutations Black Dragons send only their purest chapter gene-seed thats why they are always so late on sending the tithes and mechanicum check ups most of the time they had to get threatened by inquisition to have it be send also I just think most chapters won't get along at all I mean imagine a mantis warrior standing there with a minatour though ill say have it be changed in a way instead of all loyalist chapters have it be all Imperial Fist succesors man it this will bond the chapters even more and you know I being a Soul Drinker fan boy would love to see if they get invited or not
The problem with that would be that you'd have a force at legion-strength under a single command structure which the Imperium wants to avoid. If they were to throw that out, they could just allow the Fists to take back all successor chapters into their Legion and man the Phalanx themselves.
I think one of the biggest that makes the Imperial Fists distrustful: the Custodians had the technology to restore the Phalanx to full battle readiness, and didn't let the Fists use it for nearly 11,000 years
I could see an occasion that Guilliman has to negotiate his way through where the Custodes try to seize the Phalanx by force after the Fists deny it to them. Before the Custodes can attempt a boarding, Chapter Master Dessian, of the Imperial Fists, enacts the Last Wall Protocol and suddenly you have a Phalanx manned by multiple Dornian-lineage Astartes Chapters (including our favorite Black Templars) as well as an escort fleet in a standoff against Custodes vessels in orbit above Terra. All while Battlefleet Solar is repeatedly contacting Guilliman to try and get the situation under control.
If they called the last wall, the custodes would fucking eliminate dorns blood line. 100 hundred couldn't even kill a squad of guardians let alone the entire golden host from Terra with all their defences and weaponry.
@@VallornDeathblade pretty much, if 100 Imperial fist cant even kill 1 custodes....and they are known as the 10 Thousnd... and each chapter is only 1000 marines... literally 10 custodes would remove a founding chapter... idk what OP is smoking but it probably rhymes which Dorns Rick
@@SuperOmegaBerserker Custodes are tough but not that tough. The Word Bearers killed plenty of Custodians without a ratio of losses like that for instance. Plus, I was referencing how Imperial Fists also like wearing gold when they aren't wearing matte yellow. So it's two guys wearing gold having a slap fight.
Imperial Fists should definitely allow more elements onto the Phalanx, especially if it's been falling into disrepair to the point only a tenth of it was operational. That's really inexcusable even for the pigheaded Sons of Dorn. Heck it would be better under the command the Black Templars' High Marshall Helbrecht. They're the most seasoned void warfare Chapter by far, I reckon.
One detail I liked where the Custodes is talking about repair it, he refers to the Mechanicus as charltans which I love, as they have no idea how their tech works. But also the Custodes don't really trust Astartes at all, so they're 100% spying on the Imperial Fists and would take the Phalanx if they posed a threat to Terra.
I like to imagine the Phalanx was actually a Black Stone Fortress that Dorn looked at and said "This looks stupid, Let's overhaul the aesthetic of this thing."
Any attempt to steal or take possession of the Phalanx from the Custodian Guard would be meet with opposition from not just the Imperial Fists chapter, but it could very well draw in most of Dorns line. The Phalanx is as core to them, as the Rock are to the Dark Angels or the Arc Angelicum are to the Blood Angels. You don't just take that and expect no fight. The Imperial Fists would even be legally in the right to oppose the Custodian Guard on this issue. The Emperor personally ordered the Phalanx to belong to Dorns Legion and line. The custodies don't have the authority to counter such a decree no matter that it is 10.000 years old.
I would have zero doubt that every fist successor would turn if it happened. Even non successors, I see a whole lot of chapters turning if such an action was taken against a first founding chapter.
@@DaniMol Valdor is currently breaking himself deciding if he should use Fo's potential knowledge. And he has no authority to override the Emperors will. He can't physically disobey a single word from the Emperor.
@@DaniMol When did he force the Emperor to do anything in Alpharius's Primarch book? That doesn't happen at all. And he can say (or the author can write) whatever. It simply isn't true to the rest of the lore.
The only person who could is Guilliman, or *possibly* the Inquisition, as they are 'agents of the golden throne' and effectively act upon, and with, the authority of the Emperor, which does give them the authority to order even Astartes. (Of course, a wise and prodent Inquisitor knows *not* to order an astartes, but to request their assistance.)
@@arthour051 while technically you are right, that an Inquisititor could give such a legal order, the Fists would not obey and then said Inquisititor would have to force them/explain to both ALL their colleagues and the Custodian Guard why they want an orbital weaponssystem right above the Imperial Palace.... Said Inquisititor would likely just be forced to eat a bolt to the face.
aside from the Fist and Cadians they could house some SoS, they would appreciate extra safe homes and the phalanx would have some anti-demonic shenanigans
I think the diplomatic solution would be for Guilliman to work with the Fists to have them be the overall leadership for the Phalanx but station entire ultima founding chapters for other bloodlines than Dorn or Guilliman. This way no one can view it as a powergrab for Guilliman or the Fists. The Imperium gets one of its most powerful assets back in fighting shape to really hold the line. Cawl could even retrofit and improve the ship.
@@darkmadbat_ and I'm mainly referring to the fact that the High Lords probably wouldn't want thousands of Dorn's line all together with a weapon that powerful. But maybe Guilliman could change that since he regrets limiting chapters to 1000 battle brothers.
Considdering how loving and deeply caring the Custodes are towards their nephews, I think it does not even need a hint of "Well, nice ship you have there, would be a shame, if someone took it." from a talkative Custode, to make it commonsense for realy anyone to mistrust them. And that is not accounting for the atmosphere of paranoia in the Imperium as a whole.
@@thecommentguy9380 I know, but the way they "don't trust" the others is, as far as I came accros it, more of an at best badly hidden contempt, not a kind of "We'll keep an eye on them, just to make sure!".
@@leandrobravo3319 Imagine watching the Emperor unify Terra and humanity as a whole, bringing civilization and safety to all battered human worlds. Then some of his super soldiers betray him for a deceitful tentacle monster, a super thirsty degenerate thot, a very angry red monster and the stinkiest/dirtiest being in all planes. The Custodes watched the supposedly loyal soldiers of the greatest man to have ever been birthed for litteral hell monsters for very weak reasons.
There is or was the Emperor's Flagship that is all but forgotten. For any son's of Dorn, there would be an uproar amongst them if the Custodes confiscated the Phalanx. Possibly there could be a compromise with the Custodes thoughts, leaving the Phalanx under the overall command with the Imperial Fists with aid from dedicated members from either the Custodes or the Navy.
Personally because the Custodes do not trust anyone else is reason enough not to trust them. Their distrust Could cause them to undermine loyal space marines and really create giant rifts in the imperium
Their job is not to safeguard the Imperium, nor to babysit and help the Astartes. Their job is to keep the Emperor safe. They have already failed at that once, but that will not stop them from doing it. Their duty is not to the Imperium, but to the Emperor, anything else is just insignificant. You may not like it (heretic), but that's the way they were created.
@@davidgarcia-wb1yn Exactly, they've already seen how the Astartes and their Primarchs failed so hilariously bad. I think to the Custodes the only difference between the Loyalist and Traitor Marines is the amount of spiky bits each Marine wears. The more spiky bits the higher the distrust.
@@davidgarcia-wb1yn And they failed because after they were forced in a war of attrition against trillions of daemons, the Emperor decided to personally raid the vengeful spirit like a dumbass
The Phalanx is not just a ship, it is functionally the Imperial Fists' homeworld as well. It's hard to imagine anyone being so audacious as to demand Baal be turned over to the Custodes, just because there are more Custodes than there are Blood Angels. Still, it's hard to see it any other way than that the root of the problem is the limitations forced on the Imperial Fists by Guilliman's Codex. If they were allowed to have more numbers, they would be able to man the Phalanx more effectively. The breakup of the legions as per the Codex was meant so that no one man could command the sheer military might of an Astartes legion... but that seems like it has already gone out the window. If nothing else, surely 10,000 Custodes under the command of one man seems like a violation. I mean sure, the Custodes aren't technically Astartes, but 10,000 Custodes is surely equal to the might of any Heresy-era legion. It doesnt seem in keeping with the spirit of the codex that the Custodes should be allowed to stand at their strength while the Fists are arbitrarily restricted in their numbers. The best and easiest way to resolve the situation in my mind therefore would be to remove the restrictions on Chapter size, and I think there are already inclinations that this may happen. If it does not... the second best solution may be to have the Phalanx manned by the Imperial Fists as well as the other successor Chapters who are Sons of Dorn. The Imperial Fists would surely be a lot more willing to entertain that idea than to give the station away to those who are not even of Dorn's blood.
The idea that Codex Astartes would ever be applicable to the Emperor and his custodian guard is really a laughable thought, because that means Guilliman would have had to consider enforcing his will upon not only the Custodes but his Father as well, The Emperor maintains exclusive authority over his Custodes unless he delegates said authority to someone he trusts, and even then that authority would never extend to the point where someone could dream of enforcing an edict even remotely similar to the Codex Astartes upon them
@@valaquiz6851 Theoretically yes, but the Emperor was already on the Golden Throne when Guilliman wrote the codex. In theory the Custodes answer directly to the Emperor, but in practice they are lead by Trajan. And Trajan is a man, and no matter how trusted, how loyal, how seemingly incorruptible... all of those things could have been said of Horus before the heresy also. Aside from the Emperor of Mankind (in the state that he is) Guilliman is the current leader of the Imperium, and he absolutely has authority over the Custodes, and he has already demonstrated and established this.
@@adampogatshnik6833 Except he doesnt. The Custodes are granted the Magisterium Lex Ultima. They follow Guilliman because the Captain General chose for them to do so. Custodes are not "seemingly incorruptible", one of the most powerful demons to ever exist said it would take the heat death of the universe before it could even crack a custodian
@@adampogatshnik6833 yes. Custodians have absolute and ultimate loyalty in their genes. They are handcrafted by the emperor, never once a custodian got even near to falling to chaos. Never once a custodian runned from battle, never once a custodian refused do obey the orders of the emperor. They are the most loyal order of the imperium, more incorruptible than the Grey knights, and genetically loyal. And the captain comander is an elected office, he can be removed from office by the other custodians, he is the first among equals, not an father like the primarchs were to the astartes. The only man that can control an custodian is the emperor himself, just him. Guilliman had to ask for their help, and they accepted. 3rd point, they are absurdly smart, like, they are the counselors of the emperor, his diplomats, politicians, generals, peacemakers. They are philosophers, poets and scholars. Really versed in politics and in any topic you can think off. The custodians are the most loyal of the loyals, they are incorruptible, unbreakable and really smart. They are not golden space marines, a custodian to a space marine is what a space marine is to an common man.
Hey Wolf Lord rho I really enjoy your contact keep up the good work. on a side note could you do a video of which chapter master could take on a single custodian?
If the custodes think it needs more manpower to run it then the answer is either a "last wall" should be called and every chapter from Dorn permanently station a force on it or the IF should be able to go from 1k to 10k to have the manpower to run it at capacity.
The Imperial Fists have a militia of augmented soldiers stationed on the ship also called the Auric Guard. It was recently further enlarged by remains from the Cadian Regiments.
Ultimately its important to remember that the crew is almost entirely comprised of mortal chapter serfs. Problem is that a single chapter has difficulty maintaining the number of serfs needed to fully crew the phalanx. Now could this be rectified by transferring it to the custodes? Yes because they could quite easily acquire such a number of serfs to crew it. Nobody will say no to them. But ultimately it would be an inefficient use as they like the fists would be using it as a glorified transport. Meaning you'd get at most a few thousand warriors rather than a thousand at most (most of the time a few hundred really) So how to efficiently utilise the phalanx? Well they're on the right track. The phalanx is an exceptional transport vessel. But its vastly under utilised. So station a few chapters on it, pick up regiments of the imperial guard on the way to each warzone, expand its hangar bays for mass landing operations and perhaps try to expand its capability to support interceptors and small space craft. Use it as a gigantic mobile transport for multiple imperial forces. Then you can not only justify the expenditure in terms of resources and manpower to keep it at its peak but also get the maximum possible utility out of it.
I think the mistrust comes from the very same book but different point. Valerian and Gordon had several interactions! in one of such Garadon stated that the Custodies were acting like children (or something similar), thus the fists probably see the custodies as naive, hence unreliable allies.
It makes zero sense for the talons to man the Phalanx. The Custodes are overwhelmingly committed to defending the Imperial Palace and any deployment beyond that is limited to double digits. Even the Shield Host to accompany Guilliman is only 20 custodes. The Sisters of Silence are likewise dispersed across the Imperium. The Phalanx, powerful as it may be, is only one ship and can only be in one place at a time. If you wanted to increase the garrison of the Phalanx in terms of Astartes, you could take a squad from every chapter of Dorn's lineage and add them to the Phalanx's along with a small group of SoS for anti-demon work. This alongside the Auric Auxilia and Imperial Navy crew would be a very potent force to be reckoned with and see the Phalanx much better maintained and manned and along with a comparatively small group of escorts and auxiliary forces able reinforce nearly any hot spot that comes up across Imperium Sanctus. Also, there would be a huge boost to the Imperial Fists and their successors in coordination among their own in the event they have to implement the Last Wall again.
Of all the Pro-fist comments, I would say I have to agree with this the most. Though the custodes certainly could, they also certainly wouldnt. They already have their own fleet and they know Phalanx is better in the hands of a more offensive force than they, such as the Fists
The Phalanx should be used as the Capital of a constant Crusade. Have multiple factions in it, but let it be fully known the Imperial Fists are in charge of it. I feel this is what Guilliman needs to do to keep the Imperium even more together and not in-fight. 3 Chapters of Space Marines all of Dorn's line the Imperial Fists, one Fleet based first born and one Fleet Based Ultima founding. The rest be made of Forge worlds (Titan Legion included), Knight Houses, Sister Orders, and Guard Regiments that have lost their worlds to have this sense of revenge of not letting another world fall. I am not 100% on what would be appropriate numbers. A Custodian Shield Host should be there acting as a number 2 for the Fist and making sure none of the other factions/sub-factions get out of line.
I love how much distrust and hate is being bred between the Custodes/Primaris and the firstborne. I love it. I LOVE IT! I'm pretty sure the custodes are waiting to jump on Operation Thunderboi Wipeout 2.0 with the Primaris yes men. I'd love for Imperial Fists and their other chapters to send a tithe of warriors to build a new chapter for the Phalanx.
O remember certain iron fist linkin his mind to the core of the phalanx. What if the phalanx overheard some custodes discussing such an intention of keeping it for themselves and store it in some memory bank waiting for a single astarte to find that out ...
My hope is that the custodians just send like 500 soldiers to man the command center and the imperial fists are allowed to operate it's defense systems or repairs so it will be maxed in efficiency.
@@Jeeps-ye5ct well 250 to actually run the darn thing and 250 to act as an infiltration army just incase the imperial fists can't do the job. You know a backup plan if the enemy can actually win a fair fight!
Having a custodes/sisters of silence permanent detachment assigned to it makes sense to me, because at present it seems only a single Imperial Fists company is stationed to it. That, to me, doesn't make sense.
@@darkmadbat_ A few thousand chapter serfs are nothing compared to even a few Astartes. The only recent positive I read is that a group of survivors of Cadia have now pledge loyalty to the Imp Fists and have made a new home on the Phalanx.
@@Bananaskin101 besides preventing an enemy boarding....any astartes on the phalanx is useless...or rather a common serf/soldier can perform the same duties as the super limited space marines onboard the phalanx.
I dont understand why Fists dont simply enlist tens of thusands chapter serfs to operate Phalanx, because theres too few Fists to operate it at full capacity
There's no reason why the IF need it. They just chill on Terra and build stuff (Even though we have the custodes on Terra). I think the phalanx should be the spearhead for crusades that are launched and given to whoever is leading the crusade. If Cadia were still around I would have permanently stationed it there.
Lysander - I will reinstall the Phalanx Imperial fist - please do not do this Lysander - I am reinstalling the Phalanx inform me when the raven guard get here I require there infiltration expertise
Honestly that ship should be the nearest thing to a IP legion headquarters in modern 40k with at least a company of all IP successor chapters to not only man the damn thing but start as a basis to rearm if any chapters were wiped out. Gulliaman would likely support this as it will not only build cooperation between chapters of his brothers legion but also keep the paper work centralized and coherent for at least one measly part of the endless imperial military.
Personally I would love to see the Phalanx get the recognition it deserves. I mean i know it's supposed to be a sign of change from 30K to 40K with the deterioration of the thing and all, but the setting has begun to move forward. Also, I don't want to see the Fists get portrayed the same as the templars. Like, I get the fact that they are sons of Rogal, but they have a vastly different temperament than the Templars for a reason, and they have a closer relationship with the Custodes than any other Astartes chapter save the Grey Knights. I actually wish that there was a book where a great story plays out where Guilliman and Valorus and Cawl or Qu'vo come together to bring the Phallanx back to its glory and make it the mobile center of Command for the Crusade, and that ultimately it gets used in just that way and like 10+ Chapters are garrisoned aboard as well as Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes. I just think with all the major landmark ships or constructs that all the other factions bring to bear it would be cool to see something mobile that allows for a meeting of several factions that isn't always the MaCragge's Honor. Having something that shows imperial unity like the Imperator Somnium used to would be a big deal, and I'm surprised it hasn't already been down especially since they have already given Abbadon Black Stone Fortresses
Well the OG Fists had a vastly different temperament. But they got wiped out during the War of the Beast, ans were reformed using Black Templar, Crimson Fist and Soul Drinker Marines
They should do a cool story where they setup like a joint task force where they run it by council one leader from both forces or maybe its a situation like the rock where they have rogal in stasis hidden somewhere on-board maybe the custodies know about it but most fists dont
In the short Story Consequences Shield-Captain Tyvar to the “Traitor” Greyshield of the Brazen Drakes ‘I am Custodes. I speak with the Emperor’s voice. Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt. But you side with your brothers before your Emperor, as the Adeptus Astartes always have.’
I am not surprised the Custodes discussed it ad theybare very pragmatic and look at all possibilities even if theu decide not to do them. The Phalanx has plenty of troops on it now with the Imperial Fists and The survivers of Cadia but it could use more Imperial Navy to help man all the stuff the Guardsmen are not good at. But it has plenty of defensive forces and offensive. Just not enough operators.
What happened to the Cadians who were evacuated from Cadia's fall? Were they permanently settled on the Phalanx as a resident population and nomadic army?
As you said Guilliman is more likely to openly endorse the Last Wall protocol and have the chapters of Dorns line contribute forces to the Phalanx ... or as you suggested station whole chapters on it with the Iron Fists being in overall command of the Phalanx but not directly of the chapters ... as we see Guilliman does no longer seem interested in keeping the chapters so strictly separated ... That the Custodes discussed it does not surprise me ... Since Guilliman is the Lord Commander of the Imperium it would have to be brought directly to him, but the Custodes could try to put more weight to the proposal by gaining the support of the High Lords ... I still don't think Guilliman would approve,.
Messing with a First Founding chapter is just asking for their friends to turn up and if anything could maybe make facing off against Phalanx worse, having the Tower of Angels and the collected might of the Unforgiven in formation would certainly qualify.
Makes me wonder Do the custodes just have an intact stc just hudden from the Mechanicus under the palace Like Its just always been there and thats what they used Imagin if someone like cawl /Mechanicus found out/ got access Mabye thats part of the secred order box thing the grey knights have Give the tech boiz the stc under the condition they save emps/imperium
They could make the Phalanx the IF's home world and assign a permanent PDF force to it. Or found new chapters to man it. Or give the IF exemption of the 1000 marines limit
If Constantin Valdor is indeed the King in Yellow, would he possibly seek to obtain the Phalanx upon his return to the Imperium to add to his immense fleet that he apparently has secretly assembled? Interesting....
I can see the reformation of the legions. Guilliman has already kinda reunited the 13th. Dante has most of the BA chapters at Baal. The DA are gathering to confront the fallen. If they restore the Phalanx and then bring in the Sons of Dorn enmasse (except the Black Templars cos fuck those guys) would fit with the theme of re-unification.
Am I the only one that feels like the lore of the custodes cheapens the existence of the space marines? The original lore in Rogue Trader was that there was just a handful of them that never left earth, but over the years they have been written into events in ways that overshadow the deeds of the astartes. Part of the allure of the astartes is that while they are superhuman they are not incorruptible, and those that are loyal do so out of choice. They still feel very much human, with mostly normal human emotion and reasoning. But with the custodes we have a better, stronger astartes that cannot be corrupted, not out of choice but because it is not possible. Their one-dimensional, robotic, flawless nature feels like lazy writing to me.
Guilliman for sure would not to try take forcefully Phalanx from Fists, even if it could get him more favor of the Custodies. He know extremly well that only reason why Imperial Fist couldn't maintain this battle station is because of the Codex Astraties he wrote himself. Beside, its already pointless discussion. With Primaris reinforcemnts( in five thousand if I remeber correctly) and with abolishing rule of the maks 1000 marines they will be back on their feet in no time.
Custodes "were taking over the phalanx Imperial Fists "you cant do that the emporer decreed it to us the imperial fists" Custodes "Oh were now the Custodes imperial golden Fists, Loopholes in all"
It’s not really that unsurprising if you think about it Since the custodies main priority is to the emperor and his imperium however they see fit regardless, and in a way they are correct, a chapter of a mere thousand marines who barely out grew the phalanx even in their prime, vs the custodies as a form of mobile command center, and again whilst the imperial fists have their long and glorious history as well as being a founding chapter, wouldn’t change the fact that barely less than ten percent of the entire phalanx is barely staffed by what could even be considered a skeleton crew
Two very paranoid forces. The Custodies seem to not like Astartes in principal, and the Imperial Fists would be watching for attacks from within and without. This mess seems par for the course.
I personally would agree where they would station additional chapters to help Man the phalanx however there is the cultural problem where much like the war of the beast even the most closest of founding chapters have diverged so far from their progenitors that cooperation would be close to impossible as well as the massive insult to the fists pride and trust, such as having outsiders even if they are their fellow cousins I doubt that the fists would be willing to share and in turn would either result in say, allowing the fists to be exsemted from the 1000 marines limitation
Well, the Custodes' loyalty is to the Emperor though I do think they trust the Sisters of Silence with a level of trust they don't give to anyone else including the Astartes, their Primarchs, High Lords and Inquisitors. I don't even think the Custodes trusts the Imperium as a whole.
i think they give the SoS a bit more trust because they cant be corrupted by chaos hence the chance of them turning traitor and joining chaos is 0% ( the whole no soul thing )
I feel that many custodes story issue falls into simply writer's issues. Trying to fill in a blank in an established narrative, there bound to be some pitfalls like forced drama or inconsistencies. I'd rather see bunch of retcon for 40k custodes story after Black Library established more heresy era story. After all, its a faction that's supposed to be the top of the top with little story until the model gained hype from prospero burn box.
If Guilliman think it's necessary (for defense of Terra, mankind) he will do it without blinking. How could IF go to war against the Throne ? Even for their capital ship. No. If Custodes come to take the ship, IF won't fight them.
Yes, yes they probably would. If the Custodian Guard arrived diplomatically and asked for the Phalanx to fight in a temporary mission then absolutely no problem. If they just asked for it permanently? Hell no! Would the Dark Angels give the Rock? The wolves Fenris? In your dreams!
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen If they wouldnt, they would be branded as renegades and dealt with quickly and efficiently without anyone knowing it ever happened
@@alek7998 really? The Imperial Fists, legendary First Founding Chapter and masters of defense... You don't really know how Warhammer works if you think that. They would hold out for months and thousands of their Gene-line would come to their aid. Terra would see a full-blown civil war.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I know exactly how it would play out. See, Custodes have this very nice thing called subtlety. If they wanted the phalanx, the IF inside would get assassinated in very unfortunate accidents. After all, in such an old ship, mistakes and atrophy are bound to hit the ship. And if, say, the cargo bay was jettisoned with the imperial fists inside, nobody would ever know
I think it should be a joint effort. Even tho it was gifted to the Emperor by Dorn, it's still a symbol of the IF. Both the Custodes and Imperial are entwined to Terra, so... Ps: I don't even like the imperial fists. I do like the Black Templar, however...
Just recall all Imperial Fist Successor chapters to the Phalanx for those huge ass operations. Easy as that, problem solved. Or better yet, house a shit ton of Imperial Navy, Astra Militarum and Techpriests along with the Fists. That should fix the Phalanx's issue.
It's not surprising for the custodes to discuss or plan taking things from or even annihilating any given chapter of Space Marines no matter what chapter. They are the Emperor's talons and it was the space marine legions that brought the imperium to its knees. The custodes view themselves and not just above and more trustworthy than the astartes but even the primarchs.
How great does the idea of Dorn being hidden away in some obscure part of the Phalanx sound to anyone else? Could be a plot to bring back another loyal primarch.
@@GuthanSlayer Yeah maybe. Just think it's better him being in there somewhere and they stumble across him in stasis as they bring the ship back to life. Better tha him being in the Warp which is what happened to most of the others. So neither are original ideas.
Why wouldn't you crew the phalanx with multiple troops? Custodes, sister of silence, wolves, imperial guard and other dregs? Why wouldn't you man it to full instead of part. It is a massive tool, why would you want a part took? A full tool is a lot more appealing
Man, imagine if the paranoid schizophrenia was turned down 5% in the imperium. If custodes are so paranoid, why not have envoys of retired ones distributed to chapters for council and guidance.
The Phalanx is the Emperor`s to give not the Imperial Fists so as long as that express permission is given anything goes and they are the Custodes and should it ever arise, it would be with the Fists and others not instead of the Fists and or others, friends close enemies closer and all that. Given the potential security threat a nigh on possible Legion of Astartes in the most advanced vessel in the Imperium poses it would be remiss of the Custodes to not consider the hypothetical. Indeed Traitor Astartes are not a hypothetical to the Custodes rather an historical actual, a present actual actual and a contingent present actual with two of the contingent factors being access to relic technology, check and possibly abundant numbers should the Phalanx be reinforced with other Fist descendants, possibly a check so yeah spidey senses being activated is the Custodes literal job. Best outcome would be a dozen mixed source chapters, thousand Custodes and a thousand Sisters and leave operational control with the Fists, would sure pack a punch :)
Millions of Cadian survivors are now permanently stationed on the Phalanx and serve the Imperial Fists directly as the Phalanx's guards. They have an explicit mission to root out Custodes spies and sabotage.
@@adrianbonne7719 to be fair, there are thousands of Guard regiments on the Phalanx that are loyal to the Imperial Fists, and the Phalanx was the most powerful ship in the galaxy even when it was only functioning at 10%.
@@APZachariah yeah vut what are they gonna do against the custodes? Like theyll fight like hell but they are up against beeings made to slaughter them. Like the few thousand guardsmen wouldnt dare attack a fuking custodes
@@adrianbonne7719 please. A cultist coven killed two Custodes in Gate of Bones, and a a force of 40 Black Templars killed 5 Custodes, all after the Battle of Lion's Gate killed two thousand of them. You're buying into their own propaganda.
and why not the Imperial Fist create an Imperial Fist Navy? they have the phalanx, they have a limit on the number of Marines a chapter can have BUT, as far as I know, they don't have a limit on th enumber of servants, thralls and human helper they can have.. so, why not 1000 space marines AND 10.000.000 combined complement? They may even have a permanent complement of "supervisor" on borad while all the others deploys to missions, with support from the complement..
The Founding Chapters retain all rights of the Legions. Baal belongs to the Blood Angels, Chogoris to the White Scars, the artifacts of Vulkan to the Salamanders, and the Phalanx to the Imperial Fists.
@@APZachariah those worlds are left because they were where their Primarchs were found...... The Phalanx was not where Rogal Dorn was found, that was Inwit
@@grantpaterson1016 the Phalanx was gifted to Dorn, not "the VIIth Legion." But it's not surprising the Custodes would betray an order of the Emperor Himself because of pride. Tribune Colquan agrees with Guilliman that the Custodes have been useless until now.
@@APZachariah I'm not saying the Custodes would be right......or a good organisation....but it would be tactically valid. The Fists should not have the Phalanx in a time of war...they are unworthy of it and it makes absolutely zero sense to allow the most powerful bit of tech in the Imperium go to waste the way it has. The Phalanx is the floating proof that 40K is sometimes a bit of a joke....the Fists being allowed to keep the Phalanx is the equivilent of the Battle of Winterfell.....awful tactics done by morons. The Fists not seeing this or OFFERING them use of it shows they are only interested in their own ego and not the Imperium at large.... For a Chapter that prides themselves on efficient war, the Phalanx is a joke...tbf.
@@APZachariah I would also point out if the Custodes did take it, use it for war and put it to some actual use...they wouldn't be 'betraying' the Big E, they would be honouring his vision.. The fists have dishonoured it by putting it in constant peril and barring it from being used to it's fullest potential.
Very unpopular opinion but I really dislike the custodies they sit like lumps when the ecclesiarchy is acting up, when the inquisition acting a fool but they sure love bullying the astartes. Look the golden boys were programmed to be loyal to only the emperor but what I love about astartes at least in the books I've read are that they have human thoughts and emotions just like us. Brazen deakes as an example it's easy to say that the AC speaks with the emperors voice, view it in human terms if you were in the military you know that surrendering your troops is a no no. We as fans know who and why the custodies are the way they are but on a human level the space Marines are only doing what they feel is right and just.
I actually really like the idea of the Fists deciding to maintain control over it in name and keep a few marines on board at all times, but asking the imperial navy to take over staffing and running it. Because really seems a waste to have space marines manning a spaceship when a normal human could do that.
A huge number of Cadian survivors are now permanently stationed on the Phalanx as it's guards, called the Auric Auxilia.
@@APZachariah yes the imperial guard "rescued them" and didnt let them leave.
@@GuthanSlayer read the Imperial Fists codex.
The survivors were grateful that the Imperial Fists were the ones who got them off planet and singlehandedly held off the entire Chaos fleet so they could escape, and asked the Imperial Fists if they could reside on the Phalanx.
I'm surprised they don't have an abnormally large mortal force in it too. There's a limit to how many space marines per chapter but seeing how the Wolves/Templars get special treatment because of reasons, why not let the Fists have the Phalanx crewed by millions of humans?
The Dornite Fleet Auxilia or something. Seems perfect.
If it needs more manpower then stationing more of Dorns bloodline chapters on it is the answer.
Millions of Cadian survivors have taken up permanent station on the Phalanx and serve as the "Auric Auxilia." Manpower is no longer an issue.
thats a waste of a space marine, while marines should be capable to being amazing at space warfare their true value lies regular ol on the ground warfare not sitting in some massive heap that is slowly breaking down.
@@GuthanSlayer that's silly. Where do you think a small number of elite fighters like Marines could possibly make a bigger difference than ship boarding actions?
Just pull a Black Templar or Space Wolf.
*Cramming a mass of yellow supersoldiers in a room*
"What are you talking about? Of COURSE the Fists are codex compliant! Have a look here, there's a thousand active Marines in ten companies at parade formation right there, waiting for your inspection! Don't mind these rooms filled with Astartes... Uh, gear! We haven't used them in a while!"
@@GuthanSlayer to describe the Phalanx as a heap is heresy. The Emperor himself gifted the marvel to Dorn.
Imperial Fists have been on Terra since the heresy.
You know what they say: familiarity breeds contempt
The only ones on Terra longer than the Fists are the Custodes. At least the Imperial Fists have consistently fought for the Imperium.
@@APZachariah Yeah, because of Dorn.
He and Guilliman forced the custodes to stay there
The Phalanx is a Fist vessel, by the Emporers own words.
That said, it would also make sende to have it fully crewed.
Have each loyalist legion chapters allowed to raise an extra company to send to it in a century or so, with many more loyalist chapters allowed to send a squad of marines, the sisters of silence sending a contingent to help deal with Psykers, and the Custodies sending a force to help provide onboard security, with imperial navy forces sent to help crew it.
Do that, the Phalanx returns to full power and can be the Empires big stick in the galactic game of whack a mole.
Probably one of the best takes yet though I’d just suggest a different path. Same thing except ALL loyalist chapters get to raise an extra company and they send them to Terra to guard the outer reaches of the palace and have them on a rotation while the Imperial Fists get to fully garrison the Phalanx with a full shield company of custodes and squads or even whole extra companies from all of Dorns successors but the Fists maintain full control bar committing heresy. Not that that will ever happen but I truly think GW needs to be more liberal with the numbers for space marine chapters now. Not going back to legion strength but I think in the very least the founding chapters should have exactly or close to 10,000 marines each
This is a very cool idea but I see just one problem the gene-seed mutations:
some chapters the first to come to my mind was black dragons are very secretive of their gene-seed and its mutations
Black Dragons send only their purest chapter gene-seed thats why they are always so late on sending the tithes and mechanicum check ups most of the time they had to get threatened by inquisition to have it be send also I just think most chapters won't get along at all I mean imagine a mantis warrior standing there with a minatour
though ill say have it be changed in a way instead of all loyalist chapters have it be all Imperial Fist succesors man it this will bond the chapters even more and you know I being a Soul Drinker fan boy would love to see if they get invited or not
The problem with that would be that you'd have a force at legion-strength under a single command structure which the Imperium wants to avoid. If they were to throw that out, they could just allow the Fists to take back all successor chapters into their Legion and man the Phalanx themselves.
I think one of the biggest that makes the Imperial Fists distrustful: the Custodians had the technology to restore the Phalanx to full battle readiness, and didn't let the Fists use it for nearly 11,000 years
I could see an occasion that Guilliman has to negotiate his way through where the Custodes try to seize the Phalanx by force after the Fists deny it to them. Before the Custodes can attempt a boarding, Chapter Master Dessian, of the Imperial Fists, enacts the Last Wall Protocol and suddenly you have a Phalanx manned by multiple Dornian-lineage Astartes Chapters (including our favorite Black Templars) as well as an escort fleet in a standoff against Custodes vessels in orbit above Terra. All while Battlefleet Solar is repeatedly contacting Guilliman to try and get the situation under control.
To deny the custodes is to deny the Emperor, its heresy. The Fists would be in the wrong regardless of their autistic ideas.
If they called the last wall, the custodes would fucking eliminate dorns blood line. 100 hundred couldn't even kill a squad of guardians let alone the entire golden host from Terra with all their defences and weaponry.
Battlefleet Solar: "LORD REGENT THE BOYS IN GOLD ARE FIGHTING HELP"
@@VallornDeathblade pretty much, if 100 Imperial fist cant even kill 1 custodes....and they are known as the 10 Thousnd... and each chapter is only 1000 marines... literally 10 custodes would remove a founding chapter... idk what OP is smoking but it probably rhymes which Dorns Rick
@@SuperOmegaBerserker Custodes are tough but not that tough. The Word Bearers killed plenty of Custodians without a ratio of losses like that for instance. Plus, I was referencing how Imperial Fists also like wearing gold when they aren't wearing matte yellow. So it's two guys wearing gold having a slap fight.
It's sad to see that the phalanx was just a stone's throw away from being a derelict
Imperial Fists should definitely allow more elements onto the Phalanx, especially if it's been falling into disrepair to the point only a tenth of it was operational. That's really inexcusable even for the pigheaded Sons of Dorn. Heck it would be better under the command the Black Templars' High Marshall Helbrecht. They're the most seasoned void warfare Chapter by far, I reckon.
One detail I liked where the Custodes is talking about repair it, he refers to the Mechanicus as charltans which I love, as they have no idea how their tech works.
But also the Custodes don't really trust Astartes at all, so they're 100% spying on the Imperial Fists and would take the Phalanx if they posed a threat to Terra.
They couldn't take an orbital plate with a couple dozen Astartes on it. They couldn't take the Phalanx if they tried.
@@darkmadbat_ What are you even talking about
@@alek7998 he's saying the Custodes are incompetent basically, and couldn't take the Phalanx if they wanted to
@@valaquiz6851 I know what he's implying. I was referring to the orbital plate.
I like to imagine the Phalanx was actually a Black Stone Fortress that Dorn looked at and said "This looks stupid, Let's overhaul the aesthetic of this thing."
Any attempt to steal or take possession of the Phalanx from the Custodian Guard would be meet with opposition from not just the Imperial Fists chapter, but it could very well draw in most of Dorns line.
The Phalanx is as core to them, as the Rock are to the Dark Angels or the Arc Angelicum are to the Blood Angels. You don't just take that and expect no fight.
The Imperial Fists would even be legally in the right to oppose the Custodian Guard on this issue. The Emperor personally ordered the Phalanx to belong to Dorns Legion and line. The custodies don't have the authority to counter such a decree no matter that it is 10.000 years old.
I would have zero doubt that every fist successor would turn if it happened. Even non successors, I see a whole lot of chapters turning if such an action was taken against a first founding chapter.
@@DaniMol Valdor is currently breaking himself deciding if he should use Fo's potential knowledge. And he has no authority to override the Emperors will. He can't physically disobey a single word from the Emperor.
@@DaniMol When did he force the Emperor to do anything in Alpharius's Primarch book? That doesn't happen at all. And he can say (or the author can write) whatever. It simply isn't true to the rest of the lore.
The only person who could is Guilliman, or *possibly* the Inquisition, as they are 'agents of the golden throne' and effectively act upon, and with, the authority of the Emperor, which does give them the authority to order even Astartes. (Of course, a wise and prodent Inquisitor knows *not* to order an astartes, but to request their assistance.)
@@arthour051 while technically you are right, that an Inquisititor could give such a legal order, the Fists would not obey and then said Inquisititor would have to force them/explain to both ALL their colleagues and the Custodian Guard why they want an orbital weaponssystem right above the Imperial Palace....
Said Inquisititor would likely just be forced to eat a bolt to the face.
aside from the Fist and Cadians they could house some SoS, they would appreciate extra safe homes and the phalanx would have some anti-demonic shenanigans
I think the diplomatic solution would be for Guilliman to work with the Fists to have them be the overall leadership for the Phalanx but station entire ultima founding chapters for other bloodlines than Dorn or Guilliman. This way no one can view it as a powergrab for Guilliman or the Fists. The Imperium gets one of its most powerful assets back in fighting shape to really hold the line. Cawl could even retrofit and improve the ship.
As of Watchers of the Throne second book the Phalanx really needs reparations
Cawl can't improve on the Dark Age of Technology.
Also it's not a power grab to own your own property.
@@darkmadbat_ I bet he could. I feel he is the most intellectually advanced character in all of the lore.
@@darkmadbat_ and I'm mainly referring to the fact that the High Lords probably wouldn't want thousands of Dorn's line all together with a weapon that powerful. But maybe Guilliman could change that since he regrets limiting chapters to 1000 battle brothers.
Considdering how loving and deeply caring the Custodes are towards their nephews, I think it does not even need a hint of "Well, nice ship you have there, would be a shame, if someone took it." from a talkative Custode, to make it commonsense for realy anyone to mistrust them. And that is not accounting for the atmosphere of paranoia in the Imperium as a whole.
The custodes do not trust the astartes due to the heresy, less so to the primaris
@@thecommentguy9380 I know, but the way they "don't trust" the others is, as far as I came accros it, more of an at best badly hidden contempt, not a kind of "We'll keep an eye on them, just to make sure!".
@@leandrobravo3319 Imagine watching the Emperor unify Terra and humanity as a whole, bringing civilization and safety to all battered human worlds.
Then some of his super soldiers betray him for a deceitful tentacle monster, a super thirsty degenerate thot, a very angry red monster and the stinkiest/dirtiest being in all planes.
The Custodes watched the supposedly loyal soldiers of the greatest man to have ever been birthed for litteral hell monsters for very weak reasons.
@@jamescawl6904 Never said they were wrong, just said, that it is reasonable for anyone to keep a watchfull eye on them.
@@jamescawl6904 to be fair, even if some of the astartes did turn traitor...its not like the custodes did their job well either
There is or was the Emperor's Flagship that is all but forgotten. For any son's of Dorn, there would be an uproar amongst them if the Custodes confiscated the Phalanx. Possibly there could be a compromise with the Custodes thoughts, leaving the Phalanx under the overall command with the Imperial Fists with aid from dedicated members from either the Custodes or the Navy.
I thought that ship was destroyed in the Siege book where the Custodes help Corswain and the DA land at the Astronomicon?
They should put some the imperial fists successors chapters in the phalanx like crimson fist. With some custodes and sisters of silence just in case.
Personally because the Custodes do not trust anyone else is reason enough not to trust them. Their distrust Could cause them to undermine loyal space marines and really create giant rifts in the imperium
Horus heresy did cause a lot of damage which the imperium are still coming back from as well.
I don't trust anyone coated in that much oil
Their job is not to safeguard the Imperium, nor to babysit and help the Astartes. Their job is to keep the Emperor safe. They have already failed at that once, but that will not stop them from doing it.
Their duty is not to the Imperium, but to the Emperor, anything else is just insignificant. You may not like it (heretic), but that's the way they were created.
@@davidgarcia-wb1yn Exactly, they've already seen how the Astartes and their Primarchs failed so hilariously bad. I think to the Custodes the only difference between the Loyalist and Traitor Marines is the amount of spiky bits each Marine wears. The more spiky bits the higher the distrust.
@@davidgarcia-wb1yn And they failed because after they were forced in a war of attrition against trillions of daemons, the Emperor decided to personally raid the vengeful spirit like a dumbass
The Phalanx is not just a ship, it is functionally the Imperial Fists' homeworld as well. It's hard to imagine anyone being so audacious as to demand Baal be turned over to the Custodes, just because there are more Custodes than there are Blood Angels. Still, it's hard to see it any other way than that the root of the problem is the limitations forced on the Imperial Fists by Guilliman's Codex. If they were allowed to have more numbers, they would be able to man the Phalanx more effectively.
The breakup of the legions as per the Codex was meant so that no one man could command the sheer military might of an Astartes legion... but that seems like it has already gone out the window. If nothing else, surely 10,000 Custodes under the command of one man seems like a violation. I mean sure, the Custodes aren't technically Astartes, but 10,000 Custodes is surely equal to the might of any Heresy-era legion. It doesnt seem in keeping with the spirit of the codex that the Custodes should be allowed to stand at their strength while the Fists are arbitrarily restricted in their numbers.
The best and easiest way to resolve the situation in my mind therefore would be to remove the restrictions on Chapter size, and I think there are already inclinations that this may happen. If it does not... the second best solution may be to have the Phalanx manned by the Imperial Fists as well as the other successor Chapters who are Sons of Dorn. The Imperial Fists would surely be a lot more willing to entertain that idea than to give the station away to those who are not even of Dorn's blood.
The idea that Codex Astartes would ever be applicable to the Emperor and his custodian guard is really a laughable thought, because that means Guilliman would have had to consider enforcing his will upon not only the Custodes but his Father as well, The Emperor maintains exclusive authority over his Custodes unless he delegates said authority to someone he trusts, and even then that authority would never extend to the point where someone could dream of enforcing an edict even remotely similar to the Codex Astartes upon them
@@valaquiz6851 Theoretically yes, but the Emperor was already on the Golden Throne when Guilliman wrote the codex. In theory the Custodes answer directly to the Emperor, but in practice they are lead by Trajan. And Trajan is a man, and no matter how trusted, how loyal, how seemingly incorruptible... all of those things could have been said of Horus before the heresy also.
Aside from the Emperor of Mankind (in the state that he is) Guilliman is the current leader of the Imperium, and he absolutely has authority over the Custodes, and he has already demonstrated and established this.
@@adampogatshnik6833 Except he doesnt.
The Custodes are granted the Magisterium Lex Ultima. They follow Guilliman because the Captain General chose for them to do so.
Custodes are not "seemingly incorruptible", one of the most powerful demons to ever exist said it would take the heat death of the universe before it could even crack a custodian
@@alek7998 and you believed him?
@@adampogatshnik6833 yes. Custodians have absolute and ultimate loyalty in their genes. They are handcrafted by the emperor, never once a custodian got even near to falling to chaos. Never once a custodian runned from battle, never once a custodian refused do obey the orders of the emperor. They are the most loyal order of the imperium, more incorruptible than the Grey knights, and genetically loyal.
And the captain comander is an elected office, he can be removed from office by the other custodians, he is the first among equals, not an father like the primarchs were to the astartes.
The only man that can control an custodian is the emperor himself, just him. Guilliman had to ask for their help, and they accepted.
3rd point, they are absurdly smart, like, they are the counselors of the emperor, his diplomats, politicians, generals, peacemakers. They are philosophers, poets and scholars. Really versed in politics and in any topic you can think off.
The custodians are the most loyal of the loyals, they are incorruptible, unbreakable and really smart. They are not golden space marines, a custodian to a space marine is what a space marine is to an common man.
Hey Wolf Lord rho I really enjoy your contact keep up the good work. on a side note could you do a video of which chapter master could take on a single custodian?
If the custodes think it needs more manpower to run it then the answer is either a "last wall" should be called and every chapter from Dorn permanently station a force on it or the IF should be able to go from 1k to 10k to have the manpower to run it at capacity.
The Imperial Fists have a militia of augmented soldiers stationed on the ship also called the Auric Guard. It was recently further enlarged by remains from the Cadian Regiments.
Ultimately its important to remember that the crew is almost entirely comprised of mortal chapter serfs.
Problem is that a single chapter has difficulty maintaining the number of serfs needed to fully crew the phalanx.
Now could this be rectified by transferring it to the custodes? Yes because they could quite easily acquire such a number of serfs to crew it. Nobody will say no to them.
But ultimately it would be an inefficient use as they like the fists would be using it as a glorified transport. Meaning you'd get at most a few thousand warriors rather than a thousand at most (most of the time a few hundred really)
So how to efficiently utilise the phalanx?
Well they're on the right track. The phalanx is an exceptional transport vessel. But its vastly under utilised.
So station a few chapters on it, pick up regiments of the imperial guard on the way to each warzone, expand its hangar bays for mass landing operations and perhaps try to expand its capability to support interceptors and small space craft. Use it as a gigantic mobile transport for multiple imperial forces.
Then you can not only justify the expenditure in terms of resources and manpower to keep it at its peak but also get the maximum possible utility out of it.
I think the mistrust comes from the very same book but different point. Valerian and Gordon had several interactions! in one of such Garadon stated that the Custodies were acting like children (or something similar), thus the fists probably see the custodies as naive, hence unreliable allies.
It makes zero sense for the talons to man the Phalanx. The Custodes are overwhelmingly committed to defending the Imperial Palace and any deployment beyond that is limited to double digits. Even the Shield Host to accompany Guilliman is only 20 custodes. The Sisters of Silence are likewise dispersed across the Imperium. The Phalanx, powerful as it may be, is only one ship and can only be in one place at a time. If you wanted to increase the garrison of the Phalanx in terms of Astartes, you could take a squad from every chapter of Dorn's lineage and add them to the Phalanx's along with a small group of SoS for anti-demon work. This alongside the Auric Auxilia and Imperial Navy crew would be a very potent force to be reckoned with and see the Phalanx much better maintained and manned and along with a comparatively small group of escorts and auxiliary forces able reinforce nearly any hot spot that comes up across Imperium Sanctus. Also, there would be a huge boost to the Imperial Fists and their successors in coordination among their own in the event they have to implement the Last Wall again.
Of all the Pro-fist comments, I would say I have to agree with this the most. Though the custodes certainly could, they also certainly wouldnt. They already have their own fleet and they know Phalanx is better in the hands of a more offensive force than they, such as the Fists
The Phalanx should be used as the Capital of a constant Crusade. Have multiple factions in it, but let it be fully known the Imperial Fists are in charge of it. I feel this is what Guilliman needs to do to keep the Imperium even more together and not in-fight.
3 Chapters of Space Marines all of Dorn's line the Imperial Fists, one Fleet based first born and one Fleet Based Ultima founding.
The rest be made of Forge worlds (Titan Legion included), Knight Houses, Sister Orders, and Guard Regiments that have lost their worlds to have this sense of revenge of not letting another world fall. I am not 100% on what would be appropriate numbers.
A Custodian Shield Host should be there acting as a number 2 for the Fist and making sure none of the other factions/sub-factions get out of line.
I love how much distrust and hate is being bred between the Custodes/Primaris and the firstborne. I love it. I LOVE IT! I'm pretty sure the custodes are waiting to jump on Operation Thunderboi Wipeout 2.0 with the Primaris yes men. I'd love for Imperial Fists and their other chapters to send a tithe of warriors to build a new chapter for the Phalanx.
O remember certain iron fist linkin his mind to the core of the phalanx. What if the phalanx overheard some custodes discussing such an intention of keeping it for themselves and store it in some memory bank waiting for a single astarte to find that out ...
My hope is that the custodians just send like 500 soldiers to man the command center and the imperial fists are allowed to operate it's defense systems or repairs so it will be maxed in efficiency.
500 custodians is an insanely high amount to crew a ship
@@Jeeps-ye5ct well 250 to actually run the darn thing and 250 to act as an infiltration army just incase the imperial fists can't do the job. You know a backup plan if the enemy can actually win a fair fight!
Having a custodes/sisters of silence permanent detachment assigned to it makes sense to me, because at present it seems only a single Imperial Fists company is stationed to it. That, to me, doesn't make sense.
And that's precisely why there are thousands of menials and chapter serfs operating Phalanx.
@@darkmadbat_ A few thousand chapter serfs are nothing compared to even a few Astartes. The only recent positive I read is that a group of survivors of Cadia have now pledge loyalty to the Imp Fists and have made a new home on the Phalanx.
@@Bananaskin101 besides preventing an enemy boarding....any astartes on the phalanx is useless...or rather a common serf/soldier can perform the same duties as the super limited space marines onboard the phalanx.
The Imperial Fist just needs to reach to there successor chapters and have them fill the gap
I dont understand why Fists dont simply enlist tens of thusands chapter serfs to operate Phalanx, because theres too few Fists to operate it at full capacity
Fists don't get corrupted by Chaos. Serfs could and it wouldn't be the first time an imperial ship was destroyed from the inside out.
@@lsynno I dunno man, Chapter serfs are some extremely loyal people.
The old ban on chapters owing armies. That is part of the Codex Astartes.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen Shh, noone would know ;)
@@skaut_games7644 except.... the Custodian Guard.... and the Inquisititon which has it's principle HQ on Terra.
There's no reason why the IF need it. They just chill on Terra and build stuff (Even though we have the custodes on Terra).
I think the phalanx should be the spearhead for crusades that are launched and given to whoever is leading the crusade. If Cadia were still around I would have permanently stationed it there.
Lysander - I will reinstall the Phalanx
Imperial fist - please do not do this
Lysander - I am reinstalling the Phalanx inform me when the raven guard get here I require there infiltration expertise
Honestly that ship should be the nearest thing to a IP legion headquarters in modern 40k with at least a company of all IP successor chapters to not only man the damn thing but start as a basis to rearm if any chapters were wiped out. Gulliaman would likely support this as it will not only build cooperation between chapters of his brothers legion but also keep the paper work centralized and coherent for at least one measly part of the endless imperial military.
Personally I would love to see the Phalanx get the recognition it deserves. I mean i know it's supposed to be a sign of change from 30K to 40K with the deterioration of the thing and all, but the setting has begun to move forward. Also, I don't want to see the Fists get portrayed the same as the templars. Like, I get the fact that they are sons of Rogal, but they have a vastly different temperament than the Templars for a reason, and they have a closer relationship with the Custodes than any other Astartes chapter save the Grey Knights. I actually wish that there was a book where a great story plays out where Guilliman and Valorus and Cawl or Qu'vo come together to bring the Phallanx back to its glory and make it the mobile center of Command for the Crusade, and that ultimately it gets used in just that way and like 10+ Chapters are garrisoned aboard as well as Sisters of Battle, Sisters of Silence, and Custodes. I just think with all the major landmark ships or constructs that all the other factions bring to bear it would be cool to see something mobile that allows for a meeting of several factions that isn't always the MaCragge's Honor. Having something that shows imperial unity like the Imperator Somnium used to would be a big deal, and I'm surprised it hasn't already been down especially since they have already given Abbadon Black Stone Fortresses
Well the OG Fists had a vastly different temperament.
But they got wiped out during the War of the Beast, ans were reformed using Black Templar, Crimson Fist and Soul Drinker Marines
They should do a cool story where they setup like a joint task force where they run it by council one leader from both forces or maybe its a situation like the rock where they have rogal in stasis hidden somewhere on-board maybe the custodies know about it but most fists dont
In the short Story Consequences
Shield-Captain Tyvar to the “Traitor” Greyshield of the Brazen Drakes
‘I am Custodes. I speak with the Emperor’s voice. Were you loyal, you would set down your weapons and accept your guilt. But you side with your brothers before your Emperor, as the Adeptus Astartes always have.’
I am not surprised the Custodes discussed it ad theybare very pragmatic and look at all possibilities even if theu decide not to do them. The Phalanx has plenty of troops on it now with the Imperial Fists and The survivers of Cadia but it could use more Imperial Navy to help man all the stuff the Guardsmen are not good at. But it has plenty of defensive forces and offensive. Just not enough operators.
What happened to the Cadians who were evacuated from Cadia's fall? Were they permanently settled on the Phalanx as a resident population and nomadic army?
As you said Guilliman is more likely to openly endorse the Last Wall protocol and have the chapters of Dorns line contribute forces to the Phalanx ... or as you suggested station whole chapters on it with the Iron Fists being in overall command of the Phalanx but not directly of the chapters ... as we see Guilliman does no longer seem interested in keeping the chapters so strictly separated ...
That the Custodes discussed it does not surprise me ...
Since Guilliman is the Lord Commander of the Imperium it would have to be brought directly to him, but the Custodes could try to put more weight to the proposal by gaining the support of the High Lords ... I still don't think Guilliman would approve,.
Comment for the algorithm gods!
Messing with a First Founding chapter is just asking for their friends to turn up and if anything could maybe make facing off against Phalanx worse, having the Tower of Angels and the collected might of the Unforgiven in formation would certainly qualify.
It all depends upon if Rogal Dorn returns.
He's already in the Palace
Look out for a yellow centurion
Never trust anyone. Security is to always double check it yourself!
They should make a imperial fists and successors version of the death watch and have it fully staffed - FULL -
Makes me wonder
Do the custodes just have an intact stc just hudden from the Mechanicus under the palace
Like
Its just always been there and thats what they used
Imagin if someone like cawl /Mechanicus found out/ got access
Mabye thats part of the secred order box thing the grey knights have
Give the tech boiz the stc under the condition they save emps/imperium
If Rogal Dorn finds out about this when he returns the Custodians have more than just the his Sons to deal with.
They could make the Phalanx the IF's home world and assign a permanent PDF force to it.
Or found new chapters to man it.
Or give the IF exemption of the 1000 marines limit
Would be really cool to have it manned by both the talons of the emperor and the imperial fists
If Constantin Valdor is indeed the King in Yellow, would he possibly seek to obtain the Phalanx upon his return to the Imperium to add to his immense fleet that he apparently has secretly assembled? Interesting....
I like the idea of a fleet base chapter of custodies
Wait… the Fists being distrustful? How very… Iron… of the Warriors of Dorne *evil grin*
I can see the reformation of the legions.
Guilliman has already kinda reunited the 13th.
Dante has most of the BA chapters at Baal.
The DA are gathering to confront the fallen.
If they restore the Phalanx and then bring in the Sons of Dorn enmasse (except the Black Templars cos fuck those guys) would fit with the theme of re-unification.
Am I the only one that feels like the lore of the custodes cheapens the existence of the space marines? The original lore in Rogue Trader was that there was just a handful of them that never left earth, but over the years they have been written into events in ways that overshadow the deeds of the astartes. Part of the allure of the astartes is that while they are superhuman they are not incorruptible, and those that are loyal do so out of choice. They still feel very much human, with mostly normal human emotion and reasoning. But with the custodes we have a better, stronger astartes that cannot be corrupted, not out of choice but because it is not possible. Their one-dimensional, robotic, flawless nature feels like lazy writing to me.
I heavily disagree. If you read any custodes novels, you will find how the amount of robotic custodes can be counted on your fingers.
Guilliman for sure would not to try take forcefully Phalanx from Fists, even if it could get him more favor of the Custodies. He know extremly well that only reason why Imperial Fist couldn't maintain this battle station is because of the Codex Astraties he wrote himself. Beside, its already pointless discussion. With Primaris reinforcemnts( in five thousand if I remeber correctly) and with abolishing rule of the maks 1000 marines they will be back on their feet in no time.
Custodes "were taking over the phalanx
Imperial Fists "you cant do that the emporer decreed it to us the imperial fists"
Custodes "Oh were now the Custodes imperial golden Fists, Loopholes in all"
Last time the Fists and CUSTODES were really at odds, Katafalque launched them into hard vacuum.
Except he didnt.
It’s not really that unsurprising if you think about it
Since the custodies main priority is to the emperor and his imperium however they see fit regardless, and in a way they are correct, a chapter of a mere thousand marines who barely out grew the phalanx even in their prime, vs the custodies as a form of mobile command center, and again whilst the imperial fists have their long and glorious history as well as being a founding chapter, wouldn’t change the fact that barely less than ten percent of the entire phalanx is barely staffed by what could even be considered a skeleton crew
What about all the Cadian's. There's plenty of room for them to live and rebuild there army's on the station. Along side the fist's.
Two very paranoid forces. The Custodies seem to not like Astartes in principal, and the Imperial Fists would be watching for attacks from within and without. This mess seems par for the course.
I personally would agree where they would station additional chapters to help Man the phalanx however there is the cultural problem where much like the war of the beast even the most closest of founding chapters have diverged so far from their progenitors that cooperation would be close to impossible as well as the massive insult to the fists pride and trust, such as having outsiders even if they are their fellow cousins I doubt that the fists would be willing to share and in turn would either result in say, allowing the fists to be exsemted from the 1000 marines limitation
Well, the Custodes' loyalty is to the Emperor though I do think they trust the Sisters of Silence with a level of trust they don't give to anyone else including the Astartes, their Primarchs, High Lords and Inquisitors. I don't even think the Custodes trusts the Imperium as a whole.
i think they give the SoS a bit more trust because they cant be corrupted by chaos hence the chance of them turning traitor and joining chaos is 0% ( the whole no soul thing )
The sons of dorn should cross the Great rift to assist the sons of the angel to clean up imperium nilus
I feel that many custodes story issue falls into simply writer's issues. Trying to fill in a blank in an established narrative, there bound to be some pitfalls like forced drama or inconsistencies. I'd rather see bunch of retcon for 40k custodes story after Black Library established more heresy era story.
After all, its a faction that's supposed to be the top of the top with little story until the model gained hype from prospero burn box.
About to 3D print one of these ramilies star forts.
I don't think they mentioned it but I do think that a super human could draw that conclusion pretty easily
If anyone, my concern is with it being taken by the fricking Black Templars/the Traitorous High Lords and used against Guilliman.
If Guilliman think it's necessary (for defense of Terra, mankind) he will do it without blinking. How could IF go to war against the Throne ? Even for their capital ship. No. If Custodes come to take the ship, IF won't fight them.
Yes, yes they probably would. If the Custodian Guard arrived diplomatically and asked for the Phalanx to fight in a temporary mission then absolutely no problem.
If they just asked for it permanently?
Hell no!
Would the Dark Angels give the Rock? The wolves Fenris? In your dreams!
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen If they wouldnt, they would be branded as renegades and dealt with quickly and efficiently without anyone knowing it ever happened
@@alek7998 really? The Imperial Fists, legendary First Founding Chapter and masters of defense...
You don't really know how Warhammer works if you think that. They would hold out for months and thousands of their Gene-line would come to their aid.
Terra would see a full-blown civil war.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen I know exactly how it would play out. See, Custodes have this very nice thing called subtlety. If they wanted the phalanx, the IF inside would get assassinated in very unfortunate accidents. After all, in such an old ship, mistakes and atrophy are bound to hit the ship. And if, say, the cargo bay was jettisoned with the imperial fists inside, nobody would ever know
I think it should be a joint effort. Even tho it was gifted to the Emperor by Dorn, it's still a symbol of the IF. Both the Custodes and Imperial are entwined to Terra, so...
Ps: I don't even like the imperial fists. I do like the Black Templar, however...
Just recall all Imperial Fist Successor chapters to the Phalanx for those huge ass operations. Easy as that, problem solved. Or better yet, house a shit ton of Imperial Navy, Astra Militarum and Techpriests along with the Fists. That should fix the Phalanx's issue.
Technically it wouldn't be the first time non imperial fists controlled it since the phalanx is from the dark age of technology
No high lord or Guilliman or Valoris have the authority to counter a direct Emperors command and the 7th Legions Gene-line would never accept it.
It's not surprising for the custodes to discuss or plan taking things from or even annihilating any given chapter of Space Marines no matter what chapter.
They are the Emperor's talons and it was the space marine legions that brought the imperium to its knees.
The custodes view themselves and not just above and more trustworthy than the astartes but even the primarchs.
How many grey knights are there? Could they run it?
The trojan horse was deployed with the assistance.
How great does the idea of Dorn being hidden away in some obscure part of the Phalanx sound to anyone else? Could be a plot to bring back another loyal primarch.
Dorn would just be copying Sleeping beauty's thing ( aka the lion)
@@GuthanSlayer Yeah maybe. Just think it's better him being in there somewhere and they stumble across him in stasis as they bring the ship back to life. Better tha him being in the Warp which is what happened to most of the others. So neither are original ideas.
Why wouldn't you crew the phalanx with multiple troops? Custodes, sister of silence, wolves, imperial guard and other dregs? Why wouldn't you man it to full instead of part. It is a massive tool, why would you want a part took? A full tool is a lot more appealing
Man, imagine if the paranoid schizophrenia was turned down 5% in the imperium. If custodes are so paranoid, why not have envoys of retired ones distributed to chapters for council and guidance.
Love it! ty! I love the fists
Allow the Phalanx itself to host is own chapter from Dorns gene seed
The Phalanx is the Emperor`s to give not the Imperial Fists so as long as that express permission is given anything goes and they are the Custodes and should it ever arise, it would be with the Fists and others not instead of the Fists and or others, friends close enemies closer and all that. Given the potential security threat a nigh on possible Legion of Astartes in the most advanced vessel in the Imperium poses it would be remiss of the Custodes to not consider the hypothetical.
Indeed Traitor Astartes are not a hypothetical to the Custodes rather an historical actual, a present actual actual and a contingent present actual with two of the contingent factors being access to relic technology, check and possibly abundant numbers should the Phalanx be reinforced with other Fist descendants, possibly a check so yeah spidey senses being activated is the Custodes literal job.
Best outcome would be a dozen mixed source chapters, thousand Custodes and a thousand Sisters and leave operational control with the Fists, would sure pack a punch :)
Well... there's gonna be a whole lotta primaris Imperial Fists who may have something to say about this....
Well to be fair, what they gonna do? Fighting the custodes?
Millions of Cadian survivors are now permanently stationed on the Phalanx and serve the Imperial Fists directly as the Phalanx's guards. They have an explicit mission to root out Custodes spies and sabotage.
@@adrianbonne7719 to be fair, there are thousands of Guard regiments on the Phalanx that are loyal to the Imperial Fists, and the Phalanx was the most powerful ship in the galaxy even when it was only functioning at 10%.
@@APZachariah yeah vut what are they gonna do against the custodes? Like theyll fight like hell but they are up against beeings made to slaughter them. Like the few thousand guardsmen wouldnt dare attack a fuking custodes
@@adrianbonne7719 please.
A cultist coven killed two Custodes in Gate of Bones, and a a force of 40 Black Templars killed 5 Custodes, all after the Battle of Lion's Gate killed two thousand of them.
You're buying into their own propaganda.
and why not the Imperial Fist create an Imperial Fist Navy? they have the phalanx, they have a limit on the number of Marines a chapter can have BUT, as far as I know, they don't have a limit on th enumber of servants, thralls and human helper they can have.. so, why not 1000 space marines AND 10.000.000 combined complement? They may even have a permanent complement of "supervisor" on borad while all the others deploys to missions, with support from the complement..
It would be more apropriat for the phalanx to be maned by members from all chapters of Dorn
Gw should bring rogal dorn back and put the custodes in check
Maybe a “Honor” Company with the sons of Dorn maning it
When can we get an imperial fist game. Im tired of us being ignored
Is the phalanx more powerful then galatan?
1:29 to be continued at a later date
The Phalanx is a Necron'Tyr vessel, with a bunch of human junk on top.
The only person that can trust the Custodes is the Emperor. That is becoming more and more clear
TBF, the Big E gave it to the Fist Legion but that Legion no longer exists. It could be used as a transport of the Custodes.
The Founding Chapters retain all rights of the Legions. Baal belongs to the Blood Angels, Chogoris to the White Scars, the artifacts of Vulkan to the Salamanders, and the Phalanx to the Imperial Fists.
@@APZachariah those worlds are left because they were where their Primarchs were found...... The Phalanx was not where Rogal Dorn was found, that was Inwit
@@grantpaterson1016 the Phalanx was gifted to Dorn, not "the VIIth Legion."
But it's not surprising the Custodes would betray an order of the Emperor Himself because of pride. Tribune Colquan agrees with Guilliman that the Custodes have been useless until now.
@@APZachariah I'm not saying the Custodes would be right......or a good organisation....but it would be tactically valid. The Fists should not have the Phalanx in a time of war...they are unworthy of it and it makes absolutely zero sense to allow the most powerful bit of tech in the Imperium go to waste the way it has. The Phalanx is the floating proof that 40K is sometimes a bit of a joke....the Fists being allowed to keep the Phalanx is the equivilent of the Battle of Winterfell.....awful tactics done by morons. The Fists not seeing this or OFFERING them use of it shows they are only interested in their own ego and not the Imperium at large.... For a Chapter that prides themselves on efficient war, the Phalanx is a joke...tbf.
@@APZachariah I would also point out if the Custodes did take it, use it for war and put it to some actual use...they wouldn't be 'betraying' the Big E, they would be honouring his vision.. The fists have dishonoured it by putting it in constant peril and barring it from being used to it's fullest potential.
Kings in yellow
Patrolling the phalanx almost makes me wish for a siege of Terra
I think they will taken the phalanx when Terra fall and they have to move the throne
Very unpopular opinion but I really dislike the custodies they sit like lumps when the ecclesiarchy is acting up, when the inquisition acting a fool but they sure love bullying the astartes. Look the golden boys were programmed to be loyal to only the emperor but what I love about astartes at least in the books I've read are that they have human thoughts and emotions just like us. Brazen deakes as an example it's easy to say that the AC speaks with the emperors voice, view it in human terms if you were in the military you know that surrendering your troops is a no no. We as fans know who and why the custodies are the way they are but on a human level the space Marines are only doing what they feel is right and just.
Its a sad day for the Imperium when loyal Astartes distrust the Word of the Emperor.
8:28 heresy!
Sounds like Minotaurs
The Phalanx could be handed to the Black Templars.