I always saw big E's ability to see the future working like Paul Atreides' and Leto. 2. They could see certain paths and what they needed to do to take them but the at the end of the day there was only one path that was not complete obliteration for mankind and that path also implied a great sacrifice from the emperor. Paul didn't take it and almost destroyed humanity and Leto did and became the God emperor of mankind. I don't think it's a stretch to look at big E in the same way especially since Warhammer 40k is based in part on Dune
I could see the big E being able to see the end result he wants, and some various path markers along the way, but not knowing the infinitesimal branching and twisting paths that would lead to that destination. Hence things like sending Magnus to Prospero, without any kind of guard, and expecting him to do the right thing. And also having false leads laid out by the Chaos Gods to hinder His work.
nah i dissagree. In the book wolf time, njal stormcaller the space wolfs cheif librarian talks about how the warp doesnt show you any definite future becuase it being a reflection of humanities thoughts makes it so that peoples will can change the future the warp predicts. So i think the big E couldn't predict the heresy because the will of the primarchs would ultimately warp, no pun intended, any line of events that can be predicted.
@@FYAjibber000 Agreed If he could see everything.... Then why did Chaos create a massive warpstorm to block Isstvann from thr Emperors sight? The Emperor is powerful, and he may be a war god now.... but before he was worshipped and given power by trillions of prayers... he was no where close to the Power of 4 Gods to manipulate the warp and the future. Chaps Undivided is a serious Power
@@watchonjar Agreed Fulgrim turning was a big shock to The Emperor and Malcador. When Demi gods are wandering around, you never know what could happened! I don't think he saw Horus' betrayal TBH No one did, he was the Greatest of the Primarchs by fsr
sad to say that i got into dune Lore after 40k and my emperor are there so many aspects of Dune that are transplants to 40k though it does make me wonder who is the Duncan Idaho of 40K?
We must understand, that it wasn't just the Emperor, who was blind to the future. Eldrad Ulthran, arguably the greatest warp-based future-seer and prophet, tried very hard to scry the future around the same time. He discovered, that his sight was blocked by the United Powers of Chaos. (And the existence of the Cabal) The Covidae-cult of the Thousand Sons had lost most of their sight years before the heresy, as we see with Ahriman. Magnus couldn't see the future either. That is why Nikea was such a blow, and why even a glimpse of future Chaos-Horus sent him reeling. That vision Big E showed Alivia Surekal to get her on board with sacrificing her life for Malcador, was a critical part of the novel "Outcast Dead". It was unleashed in the wake of Magnus breaching the Warp-defenses on Terra. The Emperor didn't "see" it, he was given it by the poor astropath, that just happened to pluck it from the warp-wake. He wasn't the only astropath who eventually understood the 40k future. The other one "in the know" shoot himself....
It could also be that the future the emperor was seeing when he said "You misunderstand, I have seen the narrow path humanity must walk, this is how we must begin". It was chaos showing him a fake future and the path he was seeing was always going to lead to damnation.
I think Magnus wrecking the webway was what really put the kaibosh on the whole endeavor. Had the webway been reasonably completed while Horus was organizing and even making his way to Terra he could have been torn apart and I tend to think that was Big E's plan to deal with it. With plan A dashed best he could do was hunker down and plant some seeds to stage a comeback somewhere down the line. Still wondering what Valdor's got going on and whether or not it's on the Emperor's orders.
Thats a good question. Either way Valdor is doing whats good for the Emperor, its just a question of it being a part of the Emperors planz or Valdor just raising a massive army to take Chaos to task
The scattering of the Primarchs ultimately lead to this even being a problem in the first place as well as almost every other problem as well. Now this could be argued to have been beyond the Emperors control when this was believed to have been the doing of chaos; but according to modern lore it was the cause of that Astartes lady. That would make trusting her/not preventing her treachery and sabatoge his ultimate failing.
@@physetermacrocephalus2209 it wasn't Astartes, she was the one who tried to destroy the space marine project in the Valdor novel. The woman who caused the scattering of the Primarchs was thier 'mother' the perpetual who donated her genetic material and worked with Big E before Unification, the novels have never explained why or how she scattered them which is also very odd as some Primarchs were soul bound to thier planets (Baal, Fenris, Chigorus) by a deal the Emperor made, which would suggest that Big E may have made said deal millennia before in the Molach Chaos gate.... And knew about the scattering then...
@@adrienwatson2179 Absolutely. I have no doubt that every fiber of Valdor's being always has and always will be staunchly loyal I just think that if the whole Yellow King thing that's going on is be Big E or even a combined plan of his Malcador and Valdor's it would certainly be an interesting sort of dynamic. That being said I often find the phrase "eight because that's what they ate" rolling around in the old noggin. :D
I remember in the outcast dead novel where in the ending after the astropath meets the emperor for the final time in his dream he tells him something along the lines of "you will die" to which the emperor replies "i know"
I was under the impression that the Emperor and Malcadore saw the Heresy as inevitable. That, in fact, they both more or less planned for it. The Heresy just didn’t go quite how they had hoped. This video definitely gives some food for thought.
“The woman making the boat doesn’t finish it or refuses to give it to you” Seemingly a reference to the primarchs mother scattering them across the galaxy
Responding based on title I think he definitely knew and I think it's really obvious he did. Based on conversations with Malcador in Master of Mankind in theire little uber-chess game, to his responses to various other future seers, such as in Outcast Dead, he absolutely knew the Heresy was coming. He just didn't know the fine details. As in, He knew he would be betrayed, but at least 15 of his sons were of uncertain loyalty (Lorgar and Magnus apparently always fall and there's one mystery uber-loyalist). He looks into the future today and sees Angron giving his last against an insane Sanguinius, the next day the vision is flipped. At breakfast he sees the Lion die along the north wall to a bloated Mortarion and by lunch it's changed to Guilliman knocking Lorgar on his ass. As the Heresy gets closer things become clearer. Even without foresight an Emperor's children going traitor because one or more of them don't like some ruling or another by their father is one of Human History's Greatest Hits. Seriously it's so common throughout history it feels like it must be God's favorite trope. For someone as old as Big E it just wouldn't be hard to predict. I think it's also worth noting fault on the side of the audience. As a community we tend to see the Emperor as either a faultless supreme God or a deeply flawed mortal on psychic steroids, rather than a God waging a war against other Gods in a galaxy full of broken and dead Gods. Consider that according to Uldrad (who himself admits the Emperor's precognition is more powerful) the events of the Heresy are being actively blocked by the combined efforts of the four. Tzeench, Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh are all putting their effort into stopping anyone from seeing beyond a certain threshold. Even then the only thing the Emperor doesn't at least partially see is the result of the final confrontation. Big E could see the Heresy coming as easily as looking through a window, but there's also four jackasses drawing penises and slurs on the same window. [Ultimately though this is something of a moot argument. It's sort of impossible to ascertain a character's motives and goals when they're being written by half a dozen different people who are clearly not talking to each other at all about it.]
I think the uber loyalist is always Dorn. I think his auramite armor (whereas his brothers have ceramite) is symbolic of something. I think its symbolic that, just like the custodes who also use auramite, Dorn serves the Emperor not the Imperium (whereas his brothers server the imperium). So i dont think the uber-loyalist is a mystery.
I just think it funny how the choas farts love to bring "we only used a pinkie worth of our power!" Yet you see them blanatly sharting in fear and trying to run ultra interference.
I suspect there is plenty he did not see. Or he would have taken steps to avoid some stuff happening. Best example is the webway project. Seems like a stretch to think he saw Magnus destroying it coming, doubt he would have spent thousands of years working on it as his hope for the salvation of mankind if he knew magnus was going to utterly ruin everything, forcing him to sit on the throne instead of defending terra. Big E himself has described his foresight as vague and verging on useless even without the Gods interfering. I think people are too willing to see it as some kind of plan with foreknowledge as opposed to him desperately struggling. you have to consider that The Emperors foresight was not linear it dealt with all of probability, too much for even him to actually divine with any real accuracy in the bigger picture.
The problem with foresight is that knowing the outcome changes the outcome. The Cabal gave the alpha legion 2 outcomes both of which wholly did not come true as they saw. Konrad took his foresight as certainty, so he let things happen, ending with his death to the assassin he knew would come, he could have killed her and changed the outcome. The big E’s visions constantly changed because he would make moves based on what he saw, thus changing the course and creating another vision. Think of the movie the butterfly effect, he tries to change the outcome by going back in time to change it and creates a whole different set of problems, same kind of principle
@@joshuaashkar6644 The emperor has had his foresights described working differently. The cabal, curze and sanguinias - they saw an outcome. A single path of possibility. A very binary this will happen or it will not kind of view. They had no notion of other outcomes unless they actually change things Big E saw all the outcomes, an infinitely branching and widening map... the way Eldar do it. In a way because he saw every possibility he saw nothing certain at all and he just tried his best to make decisions that nudged reality towards the outcome he wanted. That's why he can talk about the Heresy in terms of alternate versions and outcomes because he could see all those branching paths but had no idea which one he was going down till it started because he was not aware of EVERYTHING. That's the problem with being able to see every possible outcome but missing the information required to identify which outcome you are in, or how to get to the outcome you want.
Future is not set in stone... Conrad saw future, but failed time and time again to prevent tragedies. Who knows, how things will turn, if one never receives any visions and pedictions... the best is to plan, work towards it and have faith.
I am sure that the Emperor saw the heresy, but like it is with all foresight in 40k, you can decide your own fate with your actions and he simply wasnt expecting the heresy with the path he chose.
I think he did expect the Heresy on his path, where he got it wrong was which Primarch would betray him. That he didn't know, and his supposed love of Horus completely blinded him to any suggestion that Horus would fall to Chaos.
with the Primarchs and Legions choices were in essence being taken away from him. during the Unification Wars he could easily control a far more limited set of Variables but with the Crusade he was left with less and less power. he created a plan which depended on actions he couldn't guarantee.
My understanding is he did foresee the Heresy, he just didn't know which of the Primarch's would betray him. His love of Horus blinded him to any thought of Horus falling.
@@moreplease998 The IS pragmatic, yes, but you can even see in his duel with Horus, that his love for him did make him a weakness for him. I don't doubt he would be dismissive of any foresight putting him as an enemy.
@@moreplease998 I wouldn't say 'pragmatic' is the right word there. His actions did not reflect his goals, and he was in many ways his own worst enemy, most importantly by not even understanding the nature of Chaos and how it feeds and grows: not from belief, but from emotion.
That video brought me an idea: what if the plans for sanguinius and Conrad were to have two opinions on the visions? One optimistic and one pessimistic. That would explain why curze always saw the bad in everything and sanguinius the good. It was literally what they were made to do
The Emperor's tendency to share with the wrong people is one of those loose rocks. He already knew that the Primarchs had felt the influence of Chaos when they were snatched and sent to their various worlds. Yet his expectation that they would be reliable tools without candor on his part created the problem. Had he made more of an effort to impress upon them the truth about Chaos and how reacting to it was what really drove his otherwise mysterious activities, then he might have averted so much suffering for all of humanity, including himself. Often prophecy is no substitute for common sense. In fact, prophecy can distract from immediate concerns. You don't notice the loose rock because you're fixated on the top of the cliff. One wonders how he lived so long and only seemed to figure this out too late.
When you're juggling being a galactic lightbulb, stealing some space emo's dimension tunnels, krumping the krumpers, ordering your bipedal war machines from wish.omnissiah, glaring menacingly at the chaos gods, playing chess with your homie, ensuring the feng shui of your throneroom is on point and trying to foresee where your massive star empire is headed in a years time it can get hard
Happy birthday! I think they're doing the Dune-style of foresight, where you can see many possible futures but it's not always clear exactly what actions lead to exactly which future. The large picture (the far shore or clifftop) is easy to see, but how to get there becomes more and more unclear the more you look at the possible outcome of every actions. Like when the Nighthaunter sees the young boy who could become a champion of his world and protogé of the Nighthaunter, leading it to a new prosperous age for Nostromo, or die by the Nighthaunter's hand with his future ending right there, or grabbing a knife stabbing the Nighthaunter and getting away and becoming "the one who beat the Nighthaunter" breaking his reign of terror and uniting the gangs against him, all in the same moment - then he chose to kill the boy, because one possible outcome was unacceptable to him as he kept telling himself only the worst predictions ever came true (even though he clearly had the ability to make better outcomes happen).
It's like climatology variables mean that you can only make predictions, certainty is impossible. You can see the storm, you can see it's size but where it will land and when it will cease is almost impossible, and to take a quote from Meet Joe Black, "multiply that by infinite and take it to the depths of forever and you still won't be able to grasp what I'm talking about".
I think foresight is like the old time-travel paradox. You go back in time to change the past, only by your intervention you end up causing the thing you were trying to avoid. The Emperor can see a future but he doesn't fully know which of his actions are bringing that future about versus which action are changing it.
I think he did know, I think he knew that it had to play out as it did. He visited Molech with The Lion, Jaghatai, Fulgrim, and a certain Horus he knew one of them would betray him this was a test and a trap.
There's also the issue that the Emperor, for some part, wanted the Primarchs to be who they were and almost intended for something *_like_* the Horus Heresy to happen as per some his interactions with Malcador. They intentionally let tension and conflict between the Primarchs play out. And, in the audiodrama "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium"... Malcador all but comes out and says the Heresy was planned, but that the Emperor/him weren't ready for it because it happened faster than they expected (with Horus basically making a straight beeline for Terra instead of fighting out the war). And... they theory holds water - because the theory is he wanted to do the same here as he did with the Thunder Warriors. After the heresy was over and the war settled he wanted to end the need or influence of the Primarchs and wanted ordinary humans to be the backbone of the Imperium. I mean, he's done it before. It fits with his previous actions. I don't know if I buy the theory, but there's enough canonical material that shows that some of it was planned. A lot of it *_DEFINITELY_* did not go according to plan, however, but there's also material of the Emperor speaking with people showing that Chaos influence taints prediction (which seems true, according to the theory he expected Horus to think strategically and tactically as normal and fight a prolonged war, instead Horus tried to head for Terra as fast as possible - they weren't therefore ready according to Malcador). And on long timelines with too many branching paths, he just can't be completely positive of the outcome.
There is a better thing describing his prediction of heresy in "The board is set", where heresy is going, they wait for Horus arriving. They play with Malcador the game to plan the war, and everytime it's again ana again one outcome and they know what will happen. But suddenly this something changed in the game, new condition. And that was the moment what Mortarion betrayed. This was awesome so book, it is even better as we are not sure if Malcador indeed played with Emperor, or Emperor just sent him vision to his head or it's all was just in Malcador mind.
Happy Birthday Rho! I hope you had a great birthday. My take is that the Emperor's foresight was clouded by the machinations of Tzeentch similar to how the jedi's sight was clouded by the dark side in the Star Wars prequel trilogy. Therefore, the Emperor chose the path he thought would have the least troubles and hoped for the best. But then Horus and Magnus happened...
Happy birthday, Rho! Thanks for doing the work that you do for the warhammer community. Your content’s been a huge help in dealing with everything, ranging from anxiety to sleeping.
I do believe the Emperor didn't predict the heresy... but he sure did put in a lot of work setting it up. Look how he treated Angron, Lorgar, and Magnus. I think he was planning on a heresy, but it happened earlier than he thought because Chaos got into Horus unexpectedly. Just an opinion and a guess!
Is it also possible the Primarch themselves are actually Greater Daemons or lesser Chaos Gods whom the Four Main Chaos Gods gifted to the Emperor? It could explain the Primarchs Warp origin and why some of them mutated to Warp creatures either by too much exposure to Warp or the Chaos Gods?
I agree Horus was the wrench thrown into the cogs of his machinations, I however wouldn't discount that the whole thing went just as planned for him to attain godhood and smite the chaos gods out of existence. Coz that's probably the only way to get rid of the cancer that is chaos, burn it out completely in one violent unexpected move and only a god can kill a god.
I've speculated before that he planned the Heresy, expecting that only the 'flawed' ones like Angron and Curze would rebel so they could be taken out. Only he didn't expect Horus to fall too and Horus provided a unifying force that made the rebellion way more powerful than it otherwise would have been.
One of the siege of Terra books clearly described not only that the Emperor knew the Heresy was coming but that it was part of a reoccurring cycle he used repeatedly to aquire more power, knowing each time his Warmaster would betray him, first one was Ollanius, last one was always meant to be Horus, at least since his trip to Molech during the Golden Age.
Some theories were in early editions he did see this happening and he was trying to prevent it initially and when that failed or look like it would he took steps to essentially becoming a god/godlike being and with the merging of the realms destroy chaos or at least give humanity a chance. Would explain why he acted or did certain thing with how he treated primarchs also why he didnt kill them to give them a chance for redemption. Future isnt set and peoples free will can change that, quite literally with the warp.
Happy Birthday! My simple answer to the title question: He did. He just didn't predict the outcome of the last battle. The ending of the Heresy was a flipped coin landing on its edge: where both Horus and the Emperor would effectively destroy each other, leaving mankind to rot in 10,000 years of stagnation. The Emperor and the Eldar had collectively forseen 3 endings: 1. Horus wins handily - He manages to throw off the yoke of Chaos or falls to it much much more slowly. The Imperium continues on without the Emperor and throws off many of the restrictions and power structures that had previously limited it. It burns bright and short like the Eldar Empire but Humanity does not ever annihilate itself. 2. Horus wins narrowly - He has to embrace Chaos much more completely. Completely burnt out and destroyed, the Imperium riots itself into the extinction of Humanity, aided and abetted by the crazed and bloodthirsty remnants of the Astartes. 3. The emperor wins narrowly - either by force of arms, by Horus burning out, or in the final confrontation with Horus. He is slowly able ot regain and rebuild his dream, despite being perched permanently on the Golden Throne to hold the webway shut. The Emperor believes this will lead to the eventual death of Chaos; the Eldar believe otherwise.
Am gonna roll with option three, the eldar can go fuuck themselves . They act all high and mighty yet they had the one biggest role in creating the madness that is chaos and brought about their violent downfall just coz they couldn't keep it in their pants .
@@ryansauchuk7290 thats not what im saying. Im refering to him calling the elders empire short lived. The eldar empire lasted until the birth of slaneesh. Thats 60 million years, not short by any means
@@josephtheoracle3344 It's short by the standards of the Eldar, who measure against the Great Old Ones. (also by the standards of the Necrons, but their sense of time is whack.)
I think the Horus heresy being a future that the big e foresaw but was ultimately blindsided by how big it was actually gonna be does a lot to wrap up his motivations and actions into a nice bow. Konrad foresaw the Horus heresy and we know that the primarchs all have aspects of the emperor in their personality and skill set so it’s very likely big e has it as well. I also think it goes a long way to explain the big e interactions with his sons beyond “he dumb tho” or writer being inconsistent in how they portray his actions. We’ve seen the emperor handle delicate situations with raven boy but he also just kinda shit in angrons cereal and told him to eat it. So the proposition is that the big e tried to control which primarchs would turn traitor and which would stay loyal by befriended and earning the trust of some and otherwise be hostile to the ones that wouldn’t have any use to him post crusade or who had developed terrible mental conditions that wouldn’t fit in his golden age. Ultimately it was the emperors arrogance and blind faith in his own abilities that doomed him and while I see it tragically I can understand why many wouldn’t. Also stop letting ADB write imperium novels. He’s obviously a part of the old school the imperium is doomed chaos will eventually win no redeemable qualities crowd and it makes his characterization of the emperor bad and the months of shame is an apt name but it’s more of a shame that he wrote it
This is also the author's description of how the Horus Heresy has to be written. The ending has been known for 30 years or more, but the stories in between have not, and they MUST arrive at the ending we can see and know.
happy birthday, Wolf Lord! Personal theory is that he saw several threads of Fate, he wasn't able to see all the details. The Emperor also, being so detached from the common man, looked only towards the outcome, not the people so he didn't tell the whole truth.
He did though. Malcador stated they planned for it to happen hence the rivalries. What he didn't predict was Chaos accelerating the Heresy by 200 years. By that point the custodes would be as large as a legion.
Something that might be worth a video related to this is In The 1990 book Realm of Chaos: Lost and The Damned, there is a story of the fight between the Emperor and Horus at the end of the Heresy. It's from the Emperor's POV (only example as far as I'm aware) and the Emperor describes an end to this foresight, a point he can't see beyond. "He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognitive vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers? Is this where I die? " IMO to predicting the Heresy, the Emperor really wouldn't have needed Foresight to have known that it could have happened. How many betrayal and backstabbing would he have witnessed thought out the Millennia? Ollanius Persson, Erda and probably other left or betrayed him before the great crusade already, possible the lost and forgotten as well. I think he saw it coming, but didn't realise the scale of it.
Just as planned. The Emperor and Chaos both knew what was coming. They also probably knew about the Tyranids as well. The question then becomes, did the Horus Heresy make the galaxy stronger against the Tyranids or weaker? Because if it's Stronger or more Vigilant, then an easy case can be made that the Emperor allowed it to happen to fight off a bigger threat.
Love this description of foresight but it gets even harder when you have Chaos Gods trying to Sabatage you the entire way. Without that obstacle it was a done deal of humanity winning.
For me, he saw the cliff which he had to climb and knew there'd be loose rocks (the Primarchs that fall) but which ones would fall and which would not were unknown to him. The whole you can't bake a cake without breaking a few eggs argument. Without Primarchs he'd not be able to create the future he wanted, but with them he'd know some wouldn't make the destination as they'd fall on the way.
I think the Emperor saw something big coming that was really bad. He didn't know what because the Chaos gods were interfering in the Warp. That's why His departure from the Crusade makes much more sense.
This is a great reveal. It shows and depicts a finite emperor. Not an all powerful emperor. Too often 40k fans or imperial fans speak of the emperor as all powerful whereas this truly shows him expressing how truly limitful he is. I can appreciate this version of the emperor more than the omnipotent altruistic being fans try so desperately to paint the fictional character out to be.
Reminds me Hickmans Avengers, you are playing a very dangerous game with so many things that can go wrong and your advantages may become your greatest weakness
I believe he did see it, it's just the path that humanity needed to be on for survival. I literally can't see any other reason as to why the Primarchs did not get somewhat similar treatment. I mean, Angron legit got treated like shit.
From my limited understanding is that He did knew that before long trouble would brew and a great deal of his actions were playing for time before and after Ulanor. Planning to upbring the primarchs together so that their differences would be blunted somewhat for example After Ulanor, naming Horus Warmaster because he knew Horus would be the one most of his brothers would accept. The edict of Nikea, so that psyker question would not be the spark that put brother against brother - and mayhaps attempt to limit the influence of Chaos further still. He recalled Dorn and his legion to Terra as well to fortify it. All of these, and there was that one discussion Malcador had with Dorn if I recall correctly, that they knew the enemy would act, what they didn't know is how much time they had.
My favorite 40k theory is the time traveling Emperor, or rather, the Emperor has gone through his early life, he's reunified Terra, done the great crusade, and.mafe the primarchs many times. In every timeline, the Warmaster turns traitor, but Hours isn't always Warmaster, sometimes it's Lion El Johny, sometimes it's Roboute, and yes, sometimes Horus is the Warmaster. It's a very interesting theory.
Why not then just not name a Warmaster? Sounds dumb, but the Emperor could have continued the crusade at the helm longer (and put off the webway project in earnest) until the galaxy was pretty much completely mopped up,
@@MogDog66 Perhaps that would make the primarchs splinter their efforts, either undermining the crusade's effectiveness or cause infighting, essentially creating a worse version of the warlords from Old Night.
I mean, they basically state this is what's going on during his conversation with Malcador over their Regicide game. (Paraphrasing) Malcador: Well damn, it seems Lorgar and Magnus have betrayed us. Big E: Those two always betray me. Mal: What do you think about the Khan? E: Wildcard, I can never tell which way he's going to swing. The conversation is drenched in this rhetoric.
I would of thought The Emperor would have taken counter measures if he knew what was coming, I also think seeing the future is having to interpret visions of possible futures which would leave any one not knowing what could happen or what will happen
@@darkmadbat_ You mean at Terra 1 Legion VS 8 Legions, you think he knew Sanguinius would be Murdered and sat on the Throne and waited until it happened ?
He did take counter measures, the council of Nikea, the Webway project, fortifying Terra. The Emperor's problem is that he didn't know which primarch would betray him or when exactly the Heresy would happen. And he would never believe that Horus was the one to fall.
What i get is that the Emperor foresight is like traveling with a map, the map shows you the destination and the road you must take to get there but the map doesnt show you the condition or the blockages of the road.
According to Malcador, it was always the plan for the primarch's to fight with each other. That he and the emperor planned it all. However, the way they went it went down was not planned. As he said he needed more time. Primarchs would never accept the human rule. Even Malcador last conversation asked which is loyal it's like they always knew about disloyal Primarchs.
I've read almost all the novels and it always amazes me how the Emperor is portrayed, it gives you a unique insight into his plans for humanity as well as his dream that hangs at the edge of a blade in the 41st millennium. Tuetur Principem ⚡️
I interpret this the following way: He has a destination and there are many ways leading there. Seeing the way basically means you have an understanding what there could happen while travelling on those ways. So I guess he had an understanding about chaos (therefor he didn't tolerate religion) but not how exactly this would play out. Edit: Somehow while listening to this how falling down and starting again I got strange vibes of Re:Zero. The Emperor is Natsuki Subaru... damn...
I don't buy it. I think he saw the future. I mean we're talking about a guy who spent tens of thousands of years seeding prophesies, setting up contingencies, and carefully planning for his future for mankind. I can't believe that he didn't foresee the outcome of censuring Lorgar and the council of Nicea. Those seem much more like deliberate pushes than mistakes. If we assume that the Emperor's plan was to ascent to godhood, those "mistakes" seem more reasonable. To paraphrase a Greek philosopher, "Either the Emperor is an incredibly fallible prophet or he's an incredibly evil ruler...he cannot be both a prophet and good."
I always thought you couldn’t really se the future, because if you can see it then surely it would change because you saw it and know what’s going to happen that must effect what would happen?
He did saw the future, but there are so many branched paths, he knew where he is heading to, the issue was the journey to it as he described himself in one of the books, a lot of things can change his path to his destination, and it's not a guaranteed thing.
imho, the Emperor saw it coming, even more so, he planned it.. turns out the Primarch are yes super human designed in labs but also they carry the "soul" of minor gods from the warp.. but to do so the Emperor had to bargain with the chaos gods.. and they wanted a payment for that bargain.. probably I am wrong.. but this is my idea
Happy Birthday dude and yep foresight is not twenty twenty, it is not even 5 by 5 there are way too many variables, when you find yourself in a present that you have already seen take note of it and do your best in the moment and that is all you can do, some preparation for it is perhaps possible, however the more you build contingencies the more your intent is idling on what you don`t want to happen and intent is the most powerful force in the universe, it is best put on what you do want to happen and then you deal with the events that try and take you off that path.
magnus threw a wrench in his plans, moreover, chaos at this point was uniting against the emperor. his big flaw was in not telling enough of his sons about demons and the warp.
One day Malcador is Primarch tier and force choking Horus to death - the next he gets vaporized by Magnus in the blink of an eye. One day Girlyman is a genius tactician - the next he gets outplayed by a hedonistic brother not known for his tactical prowess. One day Russ is fighting an evenly matched duel with the Lion - the next he lumps him with the brothers he could beat without a thought. Gotta love those "great moments" of writing brilliance...
This isn't that complicated. No matter how well Big E can see the future, Tzeentch can see it better. Tzeentch can make any of the stones on the symbolic hill loose. The primarchs were created with power borrowed from chaos. There was always going to be a terrible price.
I think the factor which hampered the foresight of the Emperor was simply chaos. Chaos has the fundamental feature of being unpredictable. And it was ultimately the influence of chaos which led to the creation of the Primarchs and thus the Heresy. And being a realm of alternate reality in which the laws of our reality, including time, do not apply equally, the immaterium and the realms of the chaos gods remove themselves from any foresight and at the same time, influence our reality in subtle and unpredictable ways which throw a wrench into the mechanisms of probability. The more so one tries to harness them.
I always saw big E's ability to see the future working like Paul Atreides' and Leto. 2. They could see certain paths and what they needed to do to take them but the at the end of the day there was only one path that was not complete obliteration for mankind and that path also implied a great sacrifice from the emperor. Paul didn't take it and almost destroyed humanity and Leto did and became the God emperor of mankind. I don't think it's a stretch to look at big E in the same way especially since Warhammer 40k is based in part on Dune
I could see the big E being able to see the end result he wants, and some various path markers along the way, but not knowing the infinitesimal branching and twisting paths that would lead to that destination.
Hence things like sending Magnus to Prospero, without any kind of guard, and expecting him to do the right thing. And also having false leads laid out by the Chaos Gods to hinder His work.
nah i dissagree. In the book wolf time, njal stormcaller the space wolfs cheif librarian talks about how the warp doesnt show you any definite future becuase it being a reflection of humanities thoughts makes it so that peoples will can change the future the warp predicts. So i think the big E couldn't predict the heresy because the will of the primarchs would ultimately warp, no pun intended, any line of events that can be predicted.
@@FYAjibber000 Agreed
If he could see everything....
Then why did Chaos create a massive warpstorm to block Isstvann from thr Emperors sight?
The Emperor is powerful, and he may be a war god now.... but before he was worshipped and given power by trillions of prayers... he was no where close to the Power of 4 Gods to manipulate the warp and the future.
Chaps Undivided is a serious Power
@@watchonjar Agreed
Fulgrim turning was a big shock to The Emperor and Malcador.
When Demi gods are wandering around, you never know what could happened!
I don't think he saw Horus' betrayal TBH
No one did, he was the Greatest of the Primarchs by fsr
sad to say that i got into dune Lore after 40k and my emperor are there so many aspects of Dune that are transplants to 40k
though it does make me wonder who is the Duncan Idaho of 40K?
We must understand, that it wasn't just the Emperor, who was blind to the future. Eldrad Ulthran, arguably the greatest warp-based future-seer and prophet, tried very hard to scry the future around the same time. He discovered, that his sight was blocked by the United Powers of Chaos. (And the existence of the Cabal) The Covidae-cult of the Thousand Sons had lost most of their sight years before the heresy, as we see with Ahriman. Magnus couldn't see the future either. That is why Nikea was such a blow, and why even a glimpse of future Chaos-Horus sent him reeling.
That vision Big E showed Alivia Surekal to get her on board with sacrificing her life for Malcador, was a critical part of the novel "Outcast Dead". It was unleashed in the wake of Magnus breaching the Warp-defenses on Terra. The Emperor didn't "see" it, he was given it by the poor astropath, that just happened to pluck it from the warp-wake. He wasn't the only astropath who eventually understood the 40k future. The other one "in the know" shoot himself....
It could also be that the future the emperor was seeing when he said "You misunderstand, I have seen the narrow path humanity must walk, this is how we must begin". It was chaos showing him a fake future and the path he was seeing was always going to lead to damnation.
I think Magnus wrecking the webway was what really put the kaibosh on the whole endeavor. Had the webway been reasonably completed while Horus was organizing and even making his way to Terra he could have been torn apart and I tend to think that was Big E's plan to deal with it. With plan A dashed best he could do was hunker down and plant some seeds to stage a comeback somewhere down the line. Still wondering what Valdor's got going on and whether or not it's on the Emperor's orders.
Not querying how Magnus solved the flesh change wasa major ball drop for me
Thats a good question.
Either way Valdor is doing whats good for the Emperor, its just a question of it being a part of the Emperors planz or Valdor just raising a massive army to take Chaos to task
The scattering of the Primarchs ultimately lead to this even being a problem in the first place as well as almost every other problem as well. Now this could be argued to have been beyond the Emperors control when this was believed to have been the doing of chaos; but according to modern lore it was the cause of that Astartes lady. That would make trusting her/not preventing her treachery and sabatoge his ultimate failing.
@@physetermacrocephalus2209 it wasn't Astartes, she was the one who tried to destroy the space marine project in the Valdor novel. The woman who caused the scattering of the Primarchs was thier 'mother' the perpetual who donated her genetic material and worked with Big E before Unification, the novels have never explained why or how she scattered them which is also very odd as some Primarchs were soul bound to thier planets (Baal, Fenris, Chigorus) by a deal the Emperor made, which would suggest that Big E may have made said deal millennia before in the Molach Chaos gate.... And knew about the scattering then...
@@adrienwatson2179 Absolutely. I have no doubt that every fiber of Valdor's being always has and always will be staunchly loyal I just think that if the whole Yellow King thing that's going on is be Big E or even a combined plan of his Malcador and Valdor's it would certainly be an interesting sort of dynamic. That being said I often find the phrase "eight because that's what they ate" rolling around in the old noggin. :D
I remember in the outcast dead novel where in the ending after the astropath meets the emperor for the final time in his dream he tells him something along the lines of "you will die" to which the emperor replies "i know"
I was under the impression that the Emperor and Malcadore saw the Heresy as inevitable. That, in fact, they both more or less planned for it. The Heresy just didn’t go quite how they had hoped. This video definitely gives some food for thought.
Correct
“The woman making the boat doesn’t finish it or refuses to give it to you”
Seemingly a reference to the primarchs mother scattering them across the galaxy
wow. i missed that.
Responding based on title
I think he definitely knew and I think it's really obvious he did. Based on conversations with Malcador in Master of Mankind in theire little uber-chess game, to his responses to various other future seers, such as in Outcast Dead, he absolutely knew the Heresy was coming. He just didn't know the fine details. As in, He knew he would be betrayed, but at least 15 of his sons were of uncertain loyalty (Lorgar and Magnus apparently always fall and there's one mystery uber-loyalist). He looks into the future today and sees Angron giving his last against an insane Sanguinius, the next day the vision is flipped. At breakfast he sees the Lion die along the north wall to a bloated Mortarion and by lunch it's changed to Guilliman knocking Lorgar on his ass. As the Heresy gets closer things become clearer. Even without foresight an Emperor's children going traitor because one or more of them don't like some ruling or another by their father is one of Human History's Greatest Hits. Seriously it's so common throughout history it feels like it must be God's favorite trope. For someone as old as Big E it just wouldn't be hard to predict.
I think it's also worth noting fault on the side of the audience. As a community we tend to see the Emperor as either a faultless supreme God or a deeply flawed mortal on psychic steroids, rather than a God waging a war against other Gods in a galaxy full of broken and dead Gods. Consider that according to Uldrad (who himself admits the Emperor's precognition is more powerful) the events of the Heresy are being actively blocked by the combined efforts of the four. Tzeench, Nurgle, Khorne and Slaanesh are all putting their effort into stopping anyone from seeing beyond a certain threshold. Even then the only thing the Emperor doesn't at least partially see is the result of the final confrontation. Big E could see the Heresy coming as easily as looking through a window, but there's also four jackasses drawing penises and slurs on the same window.
[Ultimately though this is something of a moot argument. It's sort of impossible to ascertain a character's motives and goals when they're being written by half a dozen different people who are clearly not talking to each other at all about it.]
I think the uber loyalist is always Dorn. I think his auramite armor (whereas his brothers have ceramite) is symbolic of something. I think its symbolic that, just like the custodes who also use auramite, Dorn serves the Emperor not the Imperium (whereas his brothers server the imperium). So i dont think the uber-loyalist is a mystery.
I just think it funny how the choas farts love to bring "we only used a pinkie worth of our power!" Yet you see them blanatly sharting in fear and trying to run ultra interference.
I suspect there is plenty he did not see. Or he would have taken steps to avoid some stuff happening.
Best example is the webway project.
Seems like a stretch to think he saw Magnus destroying it coming, doubt he would have spent thousands of years working on it as his hope for the salvation of mankind if he knew magnus was going to utterly ruin everything, forcing him to sit on the throne instead of defending terra.
Big E himself has described his foresight as vague and verging on useless even without the Gods interfering.
I think people are too willing to see it as some kind of plan with foreknowledge as opposed to him desperately struggling. you have to consider that The Emperors foresight was not linear it dealt with all of probability, too much for even him to actually divine with any real accuracy in the bigger picture.
The problem with foresight is that knowing the outcome changes the outcome. The Cabal gave the alpha legion 2 outcomes both of which wholly did not come true as they saw. Konrad took his foresight as certainty, so he let things happen, ending with his death to the assassin he knew would come, he could have killed her and changed the outcome. The big E’s visions constantly changed because he would make moves based on what he saw, thus changing the course and creating another vision. Think of the movie the butterfly effect, he tries to change the outcome by going back in time to change it and creates a whole different set of problems, same kind of principle
@@joshuaashkar6644 The emperor has had his foresights described working differently.
The cabal, curze and sanguinias - they saw an outcome. A single path of possibility. A very binary this will happen or it will not kind of view. They had no notion of other outcomes unless they actually change things
Big E saw all the outcomes, an infinitely branching and widening map... the way Eldar do it.
In a way because he saw every possibility he saw nothing certain at all and he just tried his best to make decisions that nudged reality towards the outcome he wanted.
That's why he can talk about the Heresy in terms of alternate versions and outcomes because he could see all those branching paths but had no idea which one he was going down till it started because he was not aware of EVERYTHING. That's the problem with being able to see every possible outcome but missing the information required to identify which outcome you are in, or how to get to the outcome you want.
Future is not set in stone... Conrad saw future, but failed time and time again to prevent tragedies. Who knows, how things will turn, if one never receives any visions and pedictions... the best is to plan, work towards it and have faith.
I am sure that the Emperor saw the heresy, but like it is with all foresight in 40k, you can decide your own fate with your actions and he simply wasnt expecting the heresy with the path he chose.
I think he did expect the Heresy on his path, where he got it wrong was which Primarch would betray him. That he didn't know, and his supposed love of Horus completely blinded him to any suggestion that Horus would fall to Chaos.
with the Primarchs and Legions choices were in essence being taken away from him. during the Unification Wars he could easily control a far more limited set of Variables but with the Crusade he was left with less and less power. he created a plan which depended on actions he couldn't guarantee.
@@BM-wf9uf Also the short story "The Board is set" proves your point
My understanding is he did foresee the Heresy, he just didn't know which of the Primarch's would betray him. His love of Horus blinded him to any thought of Horus falling.
@@moreplease998 The IS pragmatic, yes, but you can even see in his duel with Horus, that his love for him did make him a weakness for him. I don't doubt he would be dismissive of any foresight putting him as an enemy.
@@moreplease998 except as the emperor is essentially a god now that possibly wont happen
Do you imply that the Emperor had such a blatant weakness? Though shall be cleansed by the conscecrated promtheium fire!!!
I think Magnus was the one that caught him unawares the most. And that he thought he had more time.
@@moreplease998 I wouldn't say 'pragmatic' is the right word there. His actions did not reflect his goals, and he was in many ways his own worst enemy, most importantly by not even understanding the nature of Chaos and how it feeds and grows: not from belief, but from emotion.
That video brought me an idea: what if the plans for sanguinius and Conrad were to have two opinions on the visions? One optimistic and one pessimistic. That would explain why curze always saw the bad in everything and sanguinius the good. It was literally what they were made to do
Sanguinius also saw mostly depressing shit
@@dr.squares8938 yes, but he was made to see the good in everything while Conrad was made to see the bad even in good moments
Thats such a clever way to put foresight and explain to someone who hasnt
Happy birthday Rho keep doing the great work love the videos.
The Emperor's tendency to share with the wrong people is one of those loose rocks. He already knew that the Primarchs had felt the influence of Chaos when they were snatched and sent to their various worlds. Yet his expectation that they would be reliable tools without candor on his part created the problem. Had he made more of an effort to impress upon them the truth about Chaos and how reacting to it was what really drove his otherwise mysterious activities, then he might have averted so much suffering for all of humanity, including himself. Often prophecy is no substitute for common sense. In fact, prophecy can distract from immediate concerns. You don't notice the loose rock because you're fixated on the top of the cliff. One wonders how he lived so long and only seemed to figure this out too late.
if he just took Magnus with him to work on the Webway the outcome would've been completely different
@@ryansauchuk7290 This.
When you're juggling being a galactic lightbulb, stealing some space emo's dimension tunnels, krumping the krumpers, ordering your bipedal war machines from wish.omnissiah, glaring menacingly at the chaos gods, playing chess with your homie, ensuring the feng shui of your throneroom is on point and trying to foresee where your massive star empire is headed in a years time it can get hard
Happy birthday! I think they're doing the Dune-style of foresight, where you can see many possible futures but it's not always clear exactly what actions lead to exactly which future. The large picture (the far shore or clifftop) is easy to see, but how to get there becomes more and more unclear the more you look at the possible outcome of every actions.
Like when the Nighthaunter sees the young boy who could become a champion of his world and protogé of the Nighthaunter, leading it to a new prosperous age for Nostromo, or die by the Nighthaunter's hand with his future ending right there, or grabbing a knife stabbing the Nighthaunter and getting away and becoming "the one who beat the Nighthaunter" breaking his reign of terror and uniting the gangs against him, all in the same moment - then he chose to kill the boy, because one possible outcome was unacceptable to him as he kept telling himself only the worst predictions ever came true (even though he clearly had the ability to make better outcomes happen).
It's like climatology variables mean that you can only make predictions, certainty is impossible. You can see the storm, you can see it's size but where it will land and when it will cease is almost impossible, and to take a quote from Meet Joe Black, "multiply that by infinite and take it to the depths of forever and you still won't be able to grasp what I'm talking about".
Happy birthday rho!! I’ve been watching your videos since 5k subs!!
I think foresight is like the old time-travel paradox. You go back in time to change the past, only by your intervention you end up causing the thing you were trying to avoid. The Emperor can see a future but he doesn't fully know which of his actions are bringing that future about versus which action are changing it.
Happy birthday, Rho!
I think he did see the possibility but knowing how many possibilities existed he was never sure which future would come to pass
I think he did know, I think he knew that it had to play out as it did. He visited Molech with The Lion, Jaghatai, Fulgrim, and a certain Horus he knew one of them would betray him this was a test and a trap.
Happy birthday Rho! Thank you for the excellent content, wishing you all the best!
There's also the issue that the Emperor, for some part, wanted the Primarchs to be who they were and almost intended for something *_like_* the Horus Heresy to happen as per some his interactions with Malcador. They intentionally let tension and conflict between the Primarchs play out. And, in the audiodrama "Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium"... Malcador all but comes out and says the Heresy was planned, but that the Emperor/him weren't ready for it because it happened faster than they expected (with Horus basically making a straight beeline for Terra instead of fighting out the war). And... they theory holds water - because the theory is he wanted to do the same here as he did with the Thunder Warriors. After the heresy was over and the war settled he wanted to end the need or influence of the Primarchs and wanted ordinary humans to be the backbone of the Imperium. I mean, he's done it before. It fits with his previous actions. I don't know if I buy the theory, but there's enough canonical material that shows that some of it was planned. A lot of it *_DEFINITELY_* did not go according to plan, however, but there's also material of the Emperor speaking with people showing that Chaos influence taints prediction (which seems true, according to the theory he expected Horus to think strategically and tactically as normal and fight a prolonged war, instead Horus tried to head for Terra as fast as possible - they weren't therefore ready according to Malcador). And on long timelines with too many branching paths, he just can't be completely positive of the outcome.
There is a better thing describing his prediction of heresy in "The board is set", where heresy is going, they wait for Horus arriving. They play with Malcador the game to plan the war, and everytime it's again ana again one outcome and they know what will happen. But suddenly this something changed in the game, new condition. And that was the moment what Mortarion betrayed.
This was awesome so book, it is even better as we are not sure if Malcador indeed played with Emperor, or Emperor just sent him vision to his head or it's all was just in Malcador mind.
Happy Birthday Rho! I hope you had a great birthday.
My take is that the Emperor's foresight was clouded by the machinations of Tzeentch similar to how the jedi's sight was clouded by the dark side in the Star Wars prequel trilogy.
Therefore, the Emperor chose the path he thought would have the least troubles and hoped for the best. But then Horus and Magnus happened...
Emperor: “The risk I took was calculated, but the limitless possibilities of the universe are very hard to ascertain”
Happy birthday, Rho! Thanks for doing the work that you do for the warhammer community. Your content’s been a huge help in dealing with everything, ranging from anxiety to sleeping.
I do believe the Emperor didn't predict the heresy... but he sure did put in a lot of work setting it up. Look how he treated Angron, Lorgar, and Magnus. I think he was planning on a heresy, but it happened earlier than he thought because Chaos got into Horus unexpectedly. Just an opinion and a guess!
Is it also possible the Primarch themselves are actually Greater Daemons or lesser Chaos Gods whom the Four Main Chaos Gods gifted to the Emperor? It could explain the Primarchs Warp origin and why some of them mutated to Warp creatures either by too much exposure to Warp or the Chaos Gods?
I agree Horus was the wrench thrown into the cogs of his machinations, I however wouldn't discount that the whole thing went just as planned for him to attain godhood and smite the chaos gods out of existence. Coz that's probably the only way to get rid of the cancer that is chaos, burn it out completely in one violent unexpected move and only a god can kill a god.
I've speculated before that he planned the Heresy, expecting that only the 'flawed' ones like Angron and Curze would rebel so they could be taken out. Only he didn't expect Horus to fall too and Horus provided a unifying force that made the rebellion way more powerful than it otherwise would have been.
One of the siege of Terra books clearly described not only that the Emperor knew the Heresy was coming but that it was part of a reoccurring cycle he used repeatedly to aquire more power, knowing each time his Warmaster would betray him, first one was Ollanius, last one was always meant to be Horus, at least since his trip to Molech during the Golden Age.
The Blood Ravens claim this video for the chapter
Some theories were in early editions he did see this happening and he was trying to prevent it
initially and when that failed or look like it would he took steps to essentially becoming a god/godlike being and with the merging of the realms destroy chaos or at least give humanity a chance. Would explain why he acted or did certain thing with how he treated primarchs also why he didnt kill them to give them a chance for redemption. Future isnt set and peoples free will can change that, quite literally with the warp.
Happy Birthday!
My simple answer to the title question: He did. He just didn't predict the outcome of the last battle. The ending of the Heresy was a flipped coin landing on its edge: where both Horus and the Emperor would effectively destroy each other, leaving mankind to rot in 10,000 years of stagnation. The Emperor and the Eldar had collectively forseen 3 endings:
1. Horus wins handily - He manages to throw off the yoke of Chaos or falls to it much much more slowly. The Imperium continues on without the Emperor and throws off many of the restrictions and power structures that had previously limited it. It burns bright and short like the Eldar Empire but Humanity does not ever annihilate itself.
2. Horus wins narrowly - He has to embrace Chaos much more completely. Completely burnt out and destroyed, the Imperium riots itself into the extinction of Humanity, aided and abetted by the crazed and bloodthirsty remnants of the Astartes.
3. The emperor wins narrowly - either by force of arms, by Horus burning out, or in the final confrontation with Horus. He is slowly able ot regain and rebuild his dream, despite being perched permanently on the Golden Throne to hold the webway shut. The Emperor believes this will lead to the eventual death of Chaos; the Eldar believe otherwise.
Am gonna roll with option three, the eldar can go fuuck themselves . They act all high and mighty yet they had the one biggest role in creating the madness that is chaos and brought about their violent downfall just coz they couldn't keep it in their pants .
The eldar empire lasted for 60 million years, would you call that short
@@josephtheoracle3344 if it wasn't for the Eldar banging Slaanesh into existence mankind could've recovered from the War with the MOH
@@ryansauchuk7290 thats not what im saying. Im refering to him calling the elders empire short lived. The eldar empire lasted until the birth of slaneesh. Thats 60 million years, not short by any means
@@josephtheoracle3344 It's short by the standards of the Eldar, who measure against the Great Old Ones. (also by the standards of the Necrons, but their sense of time is whack.)
I think the Horus heresy being a future that the big e foresaw but was ultimately blindsided by how big it was actually gonna be does a lot to wrap up his motivations and actions into a nice bow.
Konrad foresaw the Horus heresy and we know that the primarchs all have aspects of the emperor in their personality and skill set so it’s very likely big e has it as well.
I also think it goes a long way to explain the big e interactions with his sons beyond “he dumb tho” or writer being inconsistent in how they portray his actions. We’ve seen the emperor handle delicate situations with raven boy but he also just kinda shit in angrons cereal and told him to eat it. So the proposition is that the big e tried to control which primarchs would turn traitor and which would stay loyal by befriended and earning the trust of some and otherwise be hostile to the ones that wouldn’t have any use to him post crusade or who had developed terrible mental conditions that wouldn’t fit in his golden age.
Ultimately it was the emperors arrogance and blind faith in his own abilities that doomed him and while I see it tragically I can understand why many wouldn’t.
Also stop letting ADB write imperium novels. He’s obviously a part of the old school the imperium is doomed chaos will eventually win no redeemable qualities crowd and it makes his characterization of the emperor bad and the months of shame is an apt name but it’s more of a shame that he wrote it
This is also the author's description of how the Horus Heresy has to be written. The ending has been known for 30 years or more, but the stories in between have not, and they MUST arrive at the ending we can see and know.
Thanks for the shoutout! It was a bland 4th of July here in the states. We only had 8 mass shootings on the shootiest holiday we have!
Happy birthday! Worked all weekend but relaxing today
happy birthday, Wolf Lord!
Personal theory is that he saw several threads of Fate, he wasn't able to see all the details. The Emperor also, being so detached from the common man, looked only towards the outcome, not the people so he didn't tell the whole truth.
Happy birthday brother! I love your channel. Please keep up the good work and enjoy your special day.
Happy birthday g
Youre the channel that got me back into this hobby after 15 years
He did though. Malcador stated they planned for it to happen hence the rivalries. What he didn't predict was Chaos accelerating the Heresy by 200 years. By that point the custodes would be as large as a legion.
Happy birthday Rho!!
Happy Birthday Rho!
Something that might be worth a video related to this is In The 1990 book Realm of Chaos: Lost and The Damned, there is a story of the fight between the Emperor and Horus at the end of the Heresy. It's from the Emperor's POV (only example as far as I'm aware) and the Emperor describes an end to this foresight, a point he can't see beyond.
"He has come at last to the dark place, the time of testing, the era hidden from his precognitive vision and beyond which he cannot see. The moment he has always dreaded has arrived. Is my time over, he wonders? Is this where it all ends? Is this why I have reached the limits of my prophetic powers? Is this where I die? "
IMO to predicting the Heresy, the Emperor really wouldn't have needed Foresight to have known that it could have happened. How many betrayal and backstabbing would he have witnessed thought out the Millennia? Ollanius Persson, Erda and probably other left or betrayed him before the great crusade already, possible the lost and forgotten as well. I think he saw it coming, but didn't realise the scale of it.
Happy Birthday! Thank you for another top quality video!
Happy Birthday mate, keep going🤝🫂
Happy Birthday Wolf Lord!
Just as planned. The Emperor and Chaos both knew what was coming. They also probably knew about the Tyranids as well.
The question then becomes, did the Horus Heresy make the galaxy stronger against the Tyranids or weaker? Because if it's Stronger or more Vigilant, then an easy case can be made that the Emperor allowed it to happen to fight off a bigger threat.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! Love your channel.
Happy Birthday Rho
happy birthday Rho!
Perhaps he thought the Heresy was already over, considering the two missing Primarchs being eliminated or what ever happened to them.
Happy birthday Ro may the Emperor bless you with many more my friend
Love this description of foresight but it gets even harder when you have Chaos Gods trying to Sabatage you the entire way. Without that obstacle it was a done deal of humanity winning.
For me, he saw the cliff which he had to climb and knew there'd be loose rocks (the Primarchs that fall) but which ones would fall and which would not were unknown to him. The whole you can't bake a cake without breaking a few eggs argument. Without Primarchs he'd not be able to create the future he wanted, but with them he'd know some wouldn't make the destination as they'd fall on the way.
Happy Birthday Mate!
Happy birthday brother keep making the best videos on UA-cam :)
Happy birthday, loved the video as always
Keep up the amazing work Rho
I think the Emperor saw something big coming that was really bad. He didn't know what because the Chaos gods were interfering in the Warp. That's why His departure from the Crusade makes much more sense.
Happy birthday Wolf Lord.
Happy Birthday brother!
This is a great reveal. It shows and depicts a finite emperor. Not an all powerful emperor. Too often 40k fans or imperial fans speak of the emperor as all powerful whereas this truly shows him expressing how truly limitful he is. I can appreciate this version of the emperor more than the omnipotent altruistic being fans try so desperately to paint the fictional character out to be.
Reminds me Hickmans Avengers, you are playing a very dangerous game with so many things that can go wrong and your advantages may become your greatest weakness
I believe he did see it, it's just the path that humanity needed to be on for survival. I literally can't see any other reason as to why the Primarchs did not get somewhat similar treatment. I mean, Angron legit got treated like shit.
From my limited understanding is that He did knew that before long trouble would brew and a great deal of his actions were playing for time before and after Ulanor. Planning to upbring the primarchs together so that their differences would be blunted somewhat for example After Ulanor, naming Horus Warmaster because he knew Horus would be the one most of his brothers would accept. The edict of Nikea, so that psyker question would not be the spark that put brother against brother - and mayhaps attempt to limit the influence of Chaos further still. He recalled Dorn and his legion to Terra as well to fortify it. All of these, and there was that one discussion Malcador had with Dorn if I recall correctly, that they knew the enemy would act, what they didn't know is how much time they had.
Happy birthday roe!!!
Happy birthday bro! 👍👍
The emperor didn’t need to predict the heresy because he planned it to happen.
Always on motion it the future! happy bday rho
My favorite 40k theory is the time traveling Emperor, or rather, the Emperor has gone through his early life, he's reunified Terra, done the great crusade, and.mafe the primarchs many times.
In every timeline, the Warmaster turns traitor, but Hours isn't always Warmaster, sometimes it's Lion El Johny, sometimes it's Roboute, and yes, sometimes Horus is the Warmaster.
It's a very interesting theory.
Wouldn't that make the goal preventing the end of the golden age of humanity rather than salvaging the remnants from it ?
Why not then just not name a Warmaster? Sounds dumb, but the Emperor could have continued the crusade at the helm longer (and put off the webway project in earnest) until the galaxy was pretty much completely mopped up,
@@MogDog66 Perhaps that would make the primarchs splinter their efforts, either undermining the crusade's effectiveness or cause infighting, essentially creating a worse version of the warlords from Old Night.
I mean, they basically state this is what's going on during his conversation with Malcador over their Regicide game.
(Paraphrasing)
Malcador: Well damn, it seems Lorgar and Magnus have betrayed us.
Big E: Those two always betray me.
Mal: What do you think about the Khan?
E: Wildcard, I can never tell which way he's going to swing.
The conversation is drenched in this rhetoric.
Or E and Malcador had played numerous turns of Regicide before - I think that's a less out-there reason than timetravel.
I would of thought The Emperor would have taken counter measures if he knew what was coming, I also think seeing the future is having to interpret visions of possible futures which would leave any one not knowing what could happen or what will happen
Counter measures like withdrawing to Terra with an entire Legion of anti-Chaos loyalists under Dorn, who promptly started fortifying the Throne world?
@@darkmadbat_ You mean at Terra 1 Legion VS 8 Legions, you think he knew Sanguinius would be Murdered and sat on the Throne and waited until it happened ?
He did take counter measures, the council of Nikea, the Webway project, fortifying Terra. The Emperor's problem is that he didn't know which primarch would betray him or when exactly the Heresy would happen. And he would never believe that Horus was the one to fall.
@@BM-wf9uf just not the best counter measures, hardly destroying his enemies!
Happy Birthday Wolf Lord enjoy your day
Happy B Day my Man!! 🎂🍺👍🏻
What i get is that the Emperor foresight is like traveling with a map, the map shows you the destination and the road you must take to get there but the map doesnt show you the condition or the blockages of the road.
Happy birthday man
Happy birthday mate
According to Malcador, it was always the plan for the primarch's to fight with each other. That he and the emperor planned it all. However, the way they went it went down was not planned. As he said he needed more time. Primarchs would never accept the human rule. Even Malcador last conversation asked which is loyal it's like they always knew about disloyal Primarchs.
Happy birthday dude
Happy birthday thanks for the great content
This 5 minute conversation was all it would've taken to stop Konrad's fall
As Always Wolf Fantastic!!!
I've read almost all the novels and it always amazes me how the Emperor is portrayed, it gives you a unique insight into his plans for humanity as well as his dream that hangs at the edge of a blade in the 41st millennium. Tuetur Principem ⚡️
Happy Birthday Young man 😁
I interpret this the following way: He has a destination and there are many ways leading there. Seeing the way basically means you have an understanding what there could happen while travelling on those ways. So I guess he had an understanding about chaos (therefor he didn't tolerate religion) but not how exactly this would play out.
Edit: Somehow while listening to this how falling down and starting again I got strange vibes of Re:Zero. The Emperor is Natsuki Subaru... damn...
I don't buy it. I think he saw the future. I mean we're talking about a guy who spent tens of thousands of years seeding prophesies, setting up contingencies, and carefully planning for his future for mankind. I can't believe that he didn't foresee the outcome of censuring Lorgar and the council of Nicea. Those seem much more like deliberate pushes than mistakes. If we assume that the Emperor's plan was to ascent to godhood, those "mistakes" seem more reasonable.
To paraphrase a Greek philosopher, "Either the Emperor is an incredibly fallible prophet or he's an incredibly evil ruler...he cannot be both a prophet and good."
Merry birthday!
Happy birthday
Happy Birthday!
I always thought you couldn’t really se the future, because if you can see it then surely it would change because you saw it and know what’s going to happen that must effect what would happen?
He did saw the future, but there are so many branched paths, he knew where he is heading to, the issue was the journey to it as he described himself in one of the books, a lot of things can change his path to his destination, and it's not a guaranteed thing.
imho, the Emperor saw it coming, even more so, he planned it.. turns out the Primarch are yes super human designed in labs but also they carry the "soul" of minor gods from the warp.. but to do so the Emperor had to bargain with the chaos gods.. and they wanted a payment for that bargain.. probably I am wrong.. but this is my idea
Happy Birthday!!!!!
Happy late Bday Rho!
Happy Birthday dude and yep foresight is not twenty twenty, it is not even 5 by 5 there are way too many variables, when you find yourself in a present that you have already seen take note of it and do your best in the moment and that is all you can do, some preparation for it is perhaps possible, however the more you build contingencies the more your intent is idling on what you don`t want to happen and intent is the most powerful force in the universe, it is best put on what you do want to happen and then you deal with the events that try and take you off that path.
magnus threw a wrench in his plans, moreover, chaos at this point was uniting against the emperor. his big flaw was in not telling enough of his sons about demons and the warp.
One day Malcador is Primarch tier and force choking Horus to death - the next he gets vaporized by Magnus in the blink of an eye.
One day Girlyman is a genius tactician - the next he gets outplayed by a hedonistic brother not known for his tactical prowess.
One day Russ is fighting an evenly matched duel with the Lion - the next he lumps him with the brothers he could beat without a thought.
Gotta love those "great moments" of writing brilliance...
Sounds like he didn't describe "foresight". Instead he described "having a plan."
This isn't that complicated. No matter how well Big E can see the future, Tzeentch can see it better. Tzeentch can make any of the stones on the symbolic hill loose.
The primarchs were created with power borrowed from chaos. There was always going to be a terrible price.
Emperor (Sees mankind falling) "That's not my problem, that's future me's problem"
Future Emperor "AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"
He knew it was going to come eventually but there were too many variables about this or that.
I think the factor which hampered the foresight of the Emperor was simply chaos. Chaos has the fundamental feature of being unpredictable. And it was ultimately the influence of chaos which led to the creation of the Primarchs and thus the Heresy. And being a realm of alternate reality in which the laws of our reality, including time, do not apply equally, the immaterium and the realms of the chaos gods remove themselves from any foresight and at the same time, influence our reality in subtle and unpredictable ways which throw a wrench into the mechanisms of probability. The more so one tries to harness them.