THE RULE OF HUMANITY! WAS THE EMPEROR WRONG TO TRUST IN MORTALS?
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- Опубліковано 8 лют 2025
- Hi all Rho here! Today we discuss the governing of the Imperium. As we ask if the Emperor was wrong to trust in mortal humans?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. So you have been warned!
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One must remember that Humanity ruled the Galaxy for a long time without his direct intervention, and he only emerged when Humanity was in the blink of extinction in the Age of Strife, which caused him to act unlike before to come to the Light and lead humanity away from the Darkness. The Emperor believes in humanity ability to lead themselves away from the Ruinous Powers and destroy any Xenos that poses a threat to them, but the Horus Heresy brought that dream to an end, though it also prove that Humanity during those Ten Thousand years was able to survive without the Emperor direct guidance.
"Courage is Fear holding on for One Moment Longer."
Takes alot to start up something over sustaining something, I dont think Humanity proved jack shit as they effectively had their op brother give them Raid Gear to breeze through level 40 foes.
It doesnt really say much good imo.
"Courage is Fear holding on for One Moment Longer."
Takes alot to start up something over sustaining something, I dont think Humanity proved jack shit as they effectively had their op brother give them Raid Gear to breeze through level 40 foes.
It doesnt really say much good imo.
Humanity did alright for a it, until they allowed AI to become to advanced. Hubris. Humanity fucked itself. As it always does.
Plus I'm sure the emperor would have had tough time uniting humanity when each star system or planet were essentially autonomous with the men of iron as the bulk of their military, as well as well as extremely powerful technology at the time, troublesome would be an understatement for the emperor.
was it tho ? he kinda shielded humanity from the wild psychers in the golden age of technology ....
Before the great crusade, each system was self governed which the emporer felt he had to take control over. So I disagree that we know the emporer intent.
Malcador tells us that the Emperor thought we could.
An isolated but self governing super advanced planet system would do fine. But when humanity has so many foes vicious foes attacking thousands of planets across the galaxy all the time, you can't really afford to let go of any resources. The presence of the emporium unites humanity with diplomacy, force or complete annihilation. A tight grip that holds together mankind who would otherwise be devided and conquered.
@@christopheraaron1255 - But he never specified *how!* It's an idealistic notion whose validity is called into question by the simple fact that a Perpetual Psyker of unmatched power felt the need to declare himself Emperor and beat mankind into submission through military force and transhuman super-soldiers.
@@daniels7907 The Emporer spent years protecting humanity from the fringes. Letting humanity live, conquer the galaxy, develop the men of iron, and enter the Age of Strife ... on our own (nod to Rho). I truly believe the Emporer has foreseen something that required him to intervene more than he has in the past.
OR
The Emporer has intervened much more than the lore tells us and his guidance will always be there, but we believe we are in control.
@@toddolson4614 - Which, as with the way that the Emperor deliberately concealed the truth about the Warp and Chaos, means that he is *lying!* The sorry state of the galaxy was largely caused by his tendency to be "selective" when sharing information with others. When he wasn't outright suppressing information and deliberately spreading lies because he thought it was for the best. The thing to remember is that, by his own admission, he is *not* a god. Immortal and powerful as he is, he still makes mistakes. Often *epic* ones. Just because he takes a course of action or plans a certain way doesn't make him right.
He created a small empire that would stand as the jewel of the entire Imperium and improved it further with the use of his Legion. So I can somewhat see why he thinks that.
In the writing of one of their chancellors, he admitted that the High Lords were the best humanity could offer for the job, they all had superlative skill and did an impossible job admirably, yet look at the mess the current Imperium has become. Its too big a dominion for anyone but the post-human to administer.
@@stalinjustafellowrussianco7440 What did they expect, without the superior vessel components crafted by the followers of the Omnissiah ?
I love the stories, but the amount of time contemplating the what ifs of fictional characters is pretty sad. Try living a little.
@@stalinjustafellowrussianco7440 It's in the act of living one finds what for. Endeavor to persevere.
I think The Emperor wanted mortals to govern themselves but he know that we are our own worst enemy and would need some protection from all kinds of dangers. But sometimes to save the hand one must cut off some fingers.
Breaking the Legions was political absolutely necessary, if your goal was to avoid one faction dominating the Imperium. They were simply too powerful!
Let's not forget that the relationship between base line humanity and the space marines were in a complicated position after the heresy. The trust had been damaged and if the legions weren't broken up, I believe It would have been just as likely that a civil war between the imperial army and the legions could have broken out, as a second heresy between the legions.
>Ecclesiarchy
The Astartes and Primarchs would have been better
Then you remember the fact that only plot armor kept the unbroken traitor liegions from burning through the imperium like they did the galaxy in the great crusade
@@hockeymasktime6748 Not really, literally all the traitor legions even the unchaosy ones like the iron warriors and night lords had massive glaring issues eg some nightlords sidelining the main quest to go skin some kids alive for the laughs or the iron warriors rage quiting coz they didn't get a pat on the head for their efforts and their unhealthy obsession with messing with the imperial fists seems to override their logic at times .
You seem to forget the loyalists still had and (still have in some way) their own set of legions and armies . Good lack rolling over a faction with guys like the lion , Russ and Guilliman and their armies in tow .
They became chaosy after joining chaos🙃 . Its chaos very nature to be chaotic and self sabotage and it's also a war of attrition with the imperium of a 100 quintillion people good luck winning that .
The breaking of the Legions was not necessary. What was necessary was the breaking of the genetic bond of loyalty between a legion and its primarch. The one that would make the majority of a legion follow a primarch into rebellion if need be. The Imperium needed and still needs legion sized formation. I reckon a better solution would be to assign each Primarch a legion not of his genetic lineage. If he leads troops not genetically loyal to him chances are most will rebel against him if he were to turn traitor.
I think after a few decades of guiding the mortals in the right direction assuming the heresy never happened then it could have been possible and if things went wrong the emperor would have been there to steer them back on track but we will never know
But that would not be humans ruling themselves. That would be humans thinking they ruled themselves, until they overstepped their leash upon which a godlike being would step in. If humans were to truly rule themselves the Emperor would have to step away completely and remove himself from government, both from his official positions and from behind the scenes.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 very true I didn't think of it that way
Jimmy Space knew that humans wouldn’t be able to thrive after him and the primarchs were gone. Rather, I think the Emperor banked on humanities one quality that has allowed them to live as long as they have, survival. He didn’t need them to thrive, he just needed them to hold out long enough that the tide could begin to turn in their favor. With the opening of the great rift, the reawakening of the (literal) God Emperor, and the surviving primarchs returning one by one, humanity had managed to do its job, so now its time for the primarchs to do theirs.
The Emperor always intended base humans to rule after the galaxy was conquered, Xenos races obliterated, chaos destroyed or negated and scientific advancement making life much easier. The background status of the galaxy was key to the turn over to base humans
Yeah, but requiring enhanced super soldiers to get there and achieve it all themselves only to hand it over to regular people really kind of contradicts that dream. If anything, it shows the incapability of humanity in the face of the normal galaxy
Well said, sir! Your take on Guilleman not looking to his brothers as being petty and dooming the Imperium was dead on. I have often felt the biggest weakness of story in the entire 40k universe is the Heresy. I realize the Heresy was just a device that GW created in the early days to help get company going, they could not afford multiple model types so created a civil war so the same units could be used by both sides. Their initial description of the Heresy has not changed that much and while for a rules pamphlet and background to a box set 30 years ago was fine, the 40k Universe has grown and matured and when viewing the fall to chaos now it looks pretty weak. Primarchs were taken in by their "father", genetically engineered to love their father, were given armies to command, positions of power and respect, and lastly (this is the important part) spent at the very least decades and in some cases over a century of being loyal to their father and fitting in. They served happily and devotedly for longer than most our lifetimes and then changed over really petty and small reasons.
Some perhaps...
Lorgar most of all, but Horus was duped, Fulgrim had a Daemon whispering directly into his brain, Perturabo had the duality of being entirely unappreciated and the horror of exterminating his entire home world, Angron had archeotech rammed into his brain, Alpharius was manipulated by Xenos, Curze was entirely insane, Magnus had his hand forced by Russ, and Mortarion always hated his father for snatching revenge from him.
So all except 3 had fairly good reason to turn. Horus was warned, but felt snubbed by the Emperor and allowed his pride to drag him into darkness, Perterabo's perception of being unappreciated and unforgivable for exterminating his homeworld, and Lorgar was just a crybaby.
@@FYAjibber000 Mortarion held that grudge for what, near a century? Given a legion to command and all the perks of that but can't get over it? These are supposedly engineered super beings that get tricked, hold on to grudged for a century, get manipulated, etc. Magnus had his hand forced by Russ because Horus changed the order. Valdor was with Russ and knows the Emperors commands 10x more than Horus. All this I feel is fine for the background info of a board game, but when we are talking about a multimillion dollar franchise with near a thousand novels written by various professional authors I just think they could have shored up the reasons for the Heresy a bit more. The rest of the 40k Universe is really solid and well thought out. I remember getting that box set as a kid and thinking it was silly and shrugging it off.
@@kccustodes2618 anyone claiming the 40k universe is "solid" and "well thought out" hasn't read enough books, the entire universe has changed drastically over and over again from the Heresy being little more then speculation hinted at in snippets to a full fledged book series. The main thing to take away from the books is that while the Primarchs, and the Emperor, despite being the greatest examples of humanity still bear the various flaws that baseline humans have.
Horus was prideful and arrogant, Perturabo was envious and greedy, Fulgrim was arrogant, and a perfectionist to the point of self degradation, ect, etc, etc.
Mortarion held is hate for the Emperor for centuries seems like a long time to us, centuries are nothing to an Immortal. And the fact that the Xenos father of Mortarion is to this day held in captivity by Mortarion speaks to the deep wounds he inflicted upon Mortarion before his discovery by the Emperor.
Moral of the story: yes the Primarchs and the Emperor are the greatest humans to ever exist, but that doesn't make them immune to the faults of humanity.
@@FYAjibber000 Thx, I just haven't read enough books like you. Clearly why should I ever respond.... FFS, I am so sick of expressing my opinion about the fact that a multimillion dollar franchise could have put a bit more work in, IMHO, without some Karen telling me how wrong I am or haven't read enough. Happens on Rho's vids more than elserwhere.
And sorry I dared express the opinion that myself as a kid thought it was silly, I would dare to fucking expect authors to develop engineered super humans, basically immortal, with prestige and purpose, and genetically engineered LOYALTY to not be little bitches. But it seems that little bitches is the fanboi base they are going for, because thats who identifies with them most and defends them loudest.
@@FYAjibber000 I'm going to disagree. You don't go far enough! The very fact that they are massively augmented post-humans on a helix deep basis makes their flaws even more entrenched. All of the emperor's "sons" were prideful and prickly at best. Throw in another grab-bag of flaws and faults, many of which were caused by absent father issues...
The imperium could have been just a first step. A stone to use as base for other forms of empire to be ruled by humans. And, yes, things can turn wrong by basics humans flaws as always, but others can take actions to replace those who failed and improve again. Because in the end, mortals, empires, stars, everything end for something new to be reborn. And that cycle in which human want to improve and aspire to be better could have been one of the goals: Create a virtuous cycle of "benevolent improvement".
But the "magical" part of 40k univers looks to be the thing that blocked that potentiality. Why bother to improve if you can simply pray that the magical god or his sons to do all for you? Or asking nurgle/c'tan for immortality that you are not suppose to reach in the first place? maybe the Emperor wanted to get rid of the xenos and purge the warp from its denizens to reset the galaxy into a safer space, then "dissapear" again to let human reach its true potential?
Perhaps, but that would be a *very* long-term goal. One that might literally take *millions* of years to achieve. Humanity had already experienced creeping decadence before the Men of Iron rebelled. Even without the Warp storms, Human unity was shattered and would have likely remained so far beyond the in-universe present time. That was why he took a stab at becoming a secular dictator by way of transhuman super-soldiers in the first place. One of his (numerous) personal flaws was making provocative statements, even as he withheld crucial information.
@@daniels7907 Indeed, the only difference I can see with the previous empires and the post-imperium is the fact that the humanity should ascend to be a psychic race. So in the current 40k univers, it bring more dangers but that's why (if I understood well) He wanted to purge the Warp. It is for sure a long terms goal but he is basically immortal and has a way to see things mortals can't comprehend.
Concerning the flaws of the Emperor, for me, he is the embodiment of humanity which has flaws and contradictions. He is definitely not perfect simply because that concept doesn't exist, we can just try to reach it and improve. Sometimes, you have to be strict or harsh with your children even if you do it because it is in their interest (being father, I know it well ^^). You might look bad in their eyes but yep, too much ice-cream is bad, sorry. Anyway, there are always lack in wathever you try to do. If you are too present and leading things, people will lack autonomy and freedom to experiment. And vice-versa, that's why a perfect system can't be put in place.
Finally, maybe the Emperor is just a bad egocentric emotionless guy but, beside the fact that he is an immortal Super psyker that can go to the warp and speak with the Chaos gods etc. He is 40k+ years old. How many people did he met? How many friends did he lost? How many children, wife's, families. How many tragedies he witnessed. It helps to put some perspectives to me.
I think at this point we know that he knew people couldn't govern themselves. That's why he came out of the woodwork. That's his whole thing. He knows that people are flawed and that he had to keep them safe, even from themselves. He doesn't want to but needs to. Humanity almost went extinct multiple times.
Except that he and Malcador disagreed over whether or not humanity could govern without him. Big E thought they could and Malcador said they couldn't.
@@christopheraaron1255 Ya he kept trying to make that work despite having the whole list on how Humanity fucked up.
Disagree, he rose from the shadows when humanity truly needed him to pull them back from the brink of extinction. The fact that humanity had been so absurdly powerful that even the Orks signed peace treaties with humanity prior to the Eldar fucking the galaxy by birthing Slaanesh, it is clear if it wasn't for the Fall of the Eldar that humanity had no need for the Emperor at all.
@@FYAjibber000 Considering how many times the Emperor played an important roles of just so many of the famous people of history that we know of, I'd say he never let humanity truly rule itself. He was always pulling strings in some form. It's just that the Age of Strife convinced him that he could no longer do so from the shadows. But rule from the shadows he did before, and if he were to do so afterwards then humanity would never truly rule itself until the Emperor would die and never be reborn.
@@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623 we don't actually know much of anything about His history, the most we have are glimpses from Himself or one of the other Perpetuals, but none of them ever corroborate the other's stories they remain anecdotes and stories that are unverifiable and potentially even entirely false as we've seen that all of them are extremely capable liars
If talking about the Primarchs and Astartes as they were intended - super human soldiers without emotions -, then NO; they should never be allowed to rule over other humans. They simply do not understand the people they were created to protect.
However, if talking about the Primarchs and Astartes as we see them portraited by the authors, then I really don't see how they are less fit to rule than anyone else. They certainly seem to struggle with all kind of emotions, like any other human, and most of them seem full of the same kind of flaws we see in ourselves.
They'd hardly do any worse than most regimes or company managers in our current era.
You are right about primarchs being not so different from humans but I can't agree on emotions part. Emotions while so cherished is literal gateway to corruption. A governor drunk on power will only be concerned about his evergrowing needs and bring more suffering upon his world. I'd rather go with humanity under Omnissiah regulation.
Guilliman sees how things went astray & assumes that it never would work because he’s the “perfect” administrator.
Also, in the Master of Mankind, the Emperor made it clear that humanity needed order imposed on it. The post heresy Imperium saw the High Lords go from administrators to outright rulers. If the Emperor weren’t trapped on the throne he could’ve easily kept a hand on the tiller if someone got out of line.
To put it bluntly, yes. I've said it before in multiple discussions, the Imperium is too grand for mortals to rule it. At least not for the overall good of humanity.
One problem with that they did rule in the dark age of technology and were more successful then the emperor.
@@shutdown117 clearly not successful enough to keep their ai under control.
@Masterofwar to be fair they up in the air how long that lasted and if they bounced back before the fourth god. The heresy is kinda a check mate on that
The Dark Age was like you using a brand new Computer then threw it out the window cuz spiders where in it.
Emps got the shattered remains and made something else that isnt a Computer but worked well.
They had no road blocks till that point but instantly got rekt and lost everything.
@@shutdown117 The dark age humanity wasnt subjected to the predations of chaos etc . And if I remember correctly it wasnt an empire per se but a bunch of colonies working towards the same goal of thriving and surviving.
While they traded and aided each other , they had differing ideals in many ways which would have made them easy to exterminate through divide and conquer , especially with chaos . This is why the emperor during the crusade was hell bent on imposing the imperial ideals even when it seemed counterproductive in both the short and long term in many planets .
Horus explained this well to Loken when loken questioned why they had to destroy some cultures that though quite different from the imperial decree , they served the planet extremely well , he said humanity had to be United not just on paper as the imperium but in ideals and mindset to prevent the divide and conquer technique .
The great crusade for example wouldn't have worked as easily if all of humanities colonies were united in defiance to the emperor . Instead almost every planet or system were doing their thing oblivious to everyone else .
The three most difficult targets to conquer during the great crusade were chaos sorcerous planets , xenos infested planets and daot systems which after the age of strife actually banded together and became mini empires instead of colonies just trading .
I think the question we should be asking is:
Was humanity right to believe in the Emperor, and his dream?
We were, for if it were not within our grasp the dark gods would not have feared it’s completion.
The Emperor came from mortals. He was human. Just the first and most powerful of the 'new man' on the evolutionary path
Wolf lord it’s a damn shame you only have 100k subs. You deserve way more!
I think it was stupid of emperor, especially after losing malcador to not leave slightest instruction to any of the brothers, what to do just in case he didnt come back.
Well, what could go wrong with a race of immortals governing the galaxy forever? *Looks over at the Eldar* ... oh yeah... that.
I’ve always felt that the Emperor knew of the common run of humanity’s propensity for pettiness and greed. Also, breaking up the legions was a mistake, a big one made out of emotion instead of logic; Guilliman feared another brother would turn.
Indeed, He knew. And could you blame Guilliman? An Astartes Legion deployed is no joke. One that turns to Chaos...? Bad. Real bad.
Absolutely agree. Guilliman at the time of the codex crisis that Astartes could operate well in reduced numbers, and other legions were following their own version of this before he laid down the text, ie the Talskar Ordu of Jagathai, Raven Guard.
The only problem was that 10,000 years is a very long time and a lot has changed between those periods.
Quad Yes, He saw how many kingdoms and we had fallen. Imo it just reeks of like a PR Stunt and a mocking of the Choas Farts.
"My people dont need me commanding 24/7 and I can stick kick your asses!"
Humanity has had a fedual government with limited access to knowledge and education because of the strucres left behind by the emporer. The emporer never finished his plan for establishing an educated atheist empowered population. The emporer's goal was to create a society that did not need him. But he centealized power too much leaving everything vaulnerable.
I don't think the Emperor really trusted humanity, considering he placed himself as their ruler. I think the Emperor would have given them control over everyday life, while being quick to send the Custodes against anyone who stepped out of line. I think the Emperor saw humanity as children that needed to be guided and at times punished by him.
The question should be were the mortals right to trust the emperor and the answer is no.
The alternative was chaos constantly up humanity's ass and Orks ravaging planets
@@paimonisfood4986 or someone else rising up to the lead humanity… perhaps someone who is actually a competent leader
@@UDAWAPBADDY saying the Emperor is incompetent is a huge stretch in my opinion and no other human could even come close to what he was
@@paimonisfood4986 the emperor is a compulsive liar, a massive hypocrite and runs with a Trump style leadership by shouting fake news when any rumours of his secrets leak and sending Leman Russ to bully anyone who disagrees with him. He’s somewhere between Donald Trump and the Soviet Union
There were plenty of other perpetuals on Terra, Valdor if he hadn’t been brainwashed into supporting the Emperor could have done it plus plenty of other systems had rising civilisations. One of them could have easily united humanity
@@paimonisfood4986 Nice joke, clown. Humanity control whole galaxy since 15 k - 25 k before Emperor dog shit. Compare to Dark age humanity modern Imperium like ahahaha in every aspect (from army to economy)
If it wasn't for Chaos, Mankind would've been fine.
No, he wasn’t wrong. But he also wasn’t right.
The interex were the most successful human society that existed, and yet Emps would have eagerly destroyed them (and ultimately did, indirectly)
You can say the empeors greatest folly was putting too much trust in those around him.
Breaking the Legions was the right thing to do, for the simple fact that numerous Chapters have fallen to Chaos.
I think humanity was ready, with his guidance, and will. It was by no means ready to completely fend and direct for themselves
Guilliman's belief that he made a mistake in letting mortals govern themselves is both obviously right and yet bizzare in the context of Ultramar.
Ultramar, while far from perfect, is actually pretty okay. The human governors are better than, say, the high Lords of Terra.
And the worlds where the Astartes, effectively, rule are often tyrannical.
To be fair to Guilliman, his words may seem to be harsh with regard to mortals, but he is most harsh on himself.
I don't agree with Rho though. I don't think breaking the legions was a mistake. The Primarks and their sons are quarrelsome. Without the Emperor to arbitrate and unite, wars between legions would have been inevitable - each war with the ability to end the empire. The scale of the Empire's many civil wars had been restrained by the chapter system.
I think had the heresy not happened, the emperor’s plan to let humanity govern itself would’ve worked fine. However I think since things turned out how they had, that it was a mistake to do so. The imperium needed a strong central leadership post heresy to keep things organized and such. So I think they’re both right. The emperor had been right pre heresy, and that gulliman was right post heresy. I also agree that breaking up the legions was a mistake, that the chapters just don’t have the threat of force that the legions had. I remember reading Horus Rising, in the beginning when Garviel Loken suggested unleashing the legion on 60-3-19, it sent a chill down my own spine and i was just a reader. The idea of unleashing a legion on a world is a terrifying thing to think about, and definitely would’ve helped keep worlds in line.
Given how many chapters have fallen to Chaos since the second founding, the continuance of the Legions would have been disastrous. The Tyrant of Badab with a full legion instead of a handful of crappy no-name chapters would have endangered vast swathes of the Imperium and have effectively been a Heresy 2.0. Without the Primarchs, who was fit to manage a legion?
The inevitable problem is that colonial empires *always* fragment over time. Yes, Humans *can* govern themselves. But the larger the polity in question, the more challenges arise. Do you try to maintain a galaxy-spanning democracy? How would such a thing even be possible without artificial intelligence to keep track of the countless issues, needs and peoples? Guilliman awoke to find the Imperium in disarray because the High Lords of Terra were endlessly embroiled in petty disputes and personal ambitions, often ignoring worlds far from Terra except when they needed them. That was why the Emperor had been an autocrat previously. Guilliman dissolved Ultramar, only to find that the 500 worlds no longer acted in concert during his long absence. Individual worlds, or (horror!) *nations* on a single world can quickly come into conflict. Even the Emperor himself had to resort to ruthless brutality and crusades to force the scattered worlds of humanity back into line after the Dark Age. If he had some solution to this problem, he has never revealed what it is.
Another Guilliman hit piece. You criticize his belief that the Astartes should've been in charge, and totally ignore planets that were transformed very positively, under their rule, while the Emperor spread darkness, illiteracy, extermination, intolerance and generational brutal slavery. Even ANGRON and KONRAD KURSE had positive impacts on their worlds. You complain about the Astartes being in charge, and totally ignore the violence and treachery of the High Lords of Terra, and the Hexarchy Crisis (ua-cam.com/video/NdDKUu81_Gk/v-deo.html). You question why Guilliman concentrated on the Realm of Ultramar, and ludicrously ignore the fact that that's his home, and that they are people more culturally advanced than most others, and more able to accept positive change, without falling on their knees to a rotten corpse. Then, you also completely neglect the conversation Guilliman had with Dante, regarding changing the way the Astartes did things ("Dante, there is a lesser task I will set you.’ He lifted his hand up to encompass three worlds. ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing that that represents.’). It's amazing you can find years of criticism for Guilliman, for any and every thing he says or does, but none for the murderous Space Wolves, who reveled in bathing in the blood of children, innocent women, the old and the infirm (ua-cam.com/video/m4l9PLUBKHk/v-deo.html).
How else are the wolves appose to honor the forest spirits without murdering everyone!
But ya, Roe is abit "out there"
I think the emperor needed to give each of his sons a malcador like advisor to keep the grounded.
Well Horus had Erebus as an advisor 🙃🙃 . Whoopss . It wasn't plausible since only Malcador had the experience, power and knowledge to be that effective advisor . Normal advisors would just be sidelined by the primarchs for their lesser mental capacity and short lifespans compared to immortal primarchs.
@@licensed_beheader Im just saying he could have cloned the old guy or had him train up a few siglites on the weekends to say stuff like. "Magnus maybe temper your self bro" or"angron your being dumb take this horse pill sized Prozac"
It's interesting to me that even after all this time into the 40k, the Emperor is still protecting Humanity.
Horus Heresy started because of Erebus - MORTAL HUMAN, who stabbed Horus with chaos blade and that made Horus turn traitor. So it wasn't petty reasons as you said. Perturabo was always used to do the worst kind of missions so it's pretty normal to be pissed about it, I also wouldn't call that petty. Same for Fulgrim, it was daemonic possession, so again not petty reason.
Honestly the Legions should have been split to forces of 10k Astartes with a setup to allow them to form a Legion size again with the approval of the High Lords and Custodes for a Crusade this would allow them to crush Black Crusades, Tyranid Hive Fleets, Ork Waaaaagh's, and even have a shot at the Necrons. The Chapters would not have degradation like they do now and would be far more well equipped to deal with the galaxy while also still limiting their power.
It's pretty blatant that dissolving the Imperium's Bulwark was a bad idea. Guilliman didn't do a lot of things wrong, but the things he did wrong were REALLY wrong and damaged the Imperium worse than any other Primarch but Horus.
This title is pure heresy humanity is far superior to all those cringe xenos and demons
The Emporer's plan was to give control of the government to humans but he and the primarchs would command the military. Guilliman's mistake was the same as most of the loyal primarchs. They were more concerned about vengeance then rebuilding the empire after the heresy. If he had not got his self killed and been there to be regent for the last 10k years trying to finish the Emporers plan things would be a whole lot different.
*the Holy Inquisition wants to know your location*
Suggestions of the Emperor being wrong is heresy of the highest order
I think the Emperor wanted Men to rule Men, with himself and his Sons at a slight remove, a pantheon of God's, not removed to some rarified higher plane, but accessible to all
HE has clearly embraced faith. I can say this because of HIS use of Saints. All existing within a Sisterhood that worships him.
Naah , they are just another tool to add to his arsenal. He clearly stated he finds the religious shenanigans cringy and disturbing to say the least .
You would be stupid to refuse a weapon literally askinf you to point them at your foesm
I don't believe that the Emperor wanted humanity to rule itself, if he really believed this, he wouldn't have destroyed all the human worlds that didn't bow down to him during the crusade. Going with diplomacy and forging alliances would have made more sense. Also he appointed himself Emperor and was surrounded by mostly non-baseline humans.
Yes he did it's one of the main reasons Horus started the heresy he was pissed after all the blood and sweat a bunch of normies were gonna do the governing. As seen with the high lords .
@@licensed_beheader Horus started the war because of the influence of Chaos on his massive ego.
The High Lords are not exactly the 'normies' though; ultra rich, cybernetically enhanced, ancient, and well educated, they have much more in common with Horus than they do with the average citizen.
@@MoraqVos Lol no they are still regarded as humans in the imperium and by Horus whether or not they are rich doesn't matter . Their ways of governing conflicted with those of Horus e.g After the newly elected high lords imposed heavy taxes on newly conquered planets hence causing uproar on said planets since they hadn't even adjusted to the imperium way of life or were still suffering from the damage of war with the legions , this undermined Horus' campaigns and caused a lot of friction between Horus and the High lords.
Horus believed the emperor , primarchs and astartes should rule not humans . Also chaos only served to push Horus off the edge . If you read the lore you'll see that chaos didn't just capitalize on his ego but on his doubts and worries, then slowly started twisting him to become the monster that would face the emperor.
@@licensed_beheader The task of the High Lords is to interpret and enact the will of the Emperor. So they are not supposed to act on behalf of normal humans, instead they should act as the Emperor wants them to. So humanity is not governing itself, it is ruled by an unrepresentative and corrupt olicharchy of enhanced humans who supposedly do what the Emperor wants, or in lieu of that, just act in self interest.
I think you're right, things would have deteriorated if there were still legions but not nearly as much.
The big thing is the failure of the webway project. The Emperor knew that the Imperium could never work without meta humans considering the absurd scales involved. If the webway project had succeeded then distances and logistical problems simply would not have mattered in the way they do now. In the imperiums current state it needs something like Guilliman in order to lift itself above just subsisting and this is the burden that he feels upon his shoulders. The distances are just too vast for anyone or anything to be able to truly "rule" the imperium.
Without humanity governing themselves the whole plan of saving humanity would be pointless.
My only thought I have,what is the name to the background music is video,soo calming and therapeutic,
The Imperium of 40k is a monument to poor communication skills.
I think the imperium should of been run with the post-humans and humans working together in tandem so that each can make up for the others flaws and shortcomings while keeping the greatest excesses of each other in check..
I appreciate how you think my jarl. I think perry had a legitimate greivance. If it would be the imperium he wanted in the webway. He wanted humanity to evolve further. I believe like you said if the baseline humanity was where the big e wanted them to be the corruption that lord guilinan experienced would not be a possibility. We would be beyond thst as a race.
Sigismund , although i am not a fan of rogul and in turn his sons , followed the rules of the emperor entirely without question, It lead him to be who he was and his renown as one of the greatest. I have to admit though i find the most intriguing of the story's to be when those who advertently or inadvertently stray from the emporers ideology Men and astarties alike. Maybe that's why i am a avid world eater fan.
Astartes have all the flaws of man, much more so. The difference would be a new set of issues.
Yes. Primarchs and Astartes are not a different species, just humans with a lot more power. And as proven in the Heresy, anything that would set a human off kilter sets off a superhuman, too.
Is humanity right to trust the Emperor?
I really enjoy this sort of discussion, but it is good to remember once in a while that 40k is a parody setting that demonstrates the inherent instability of totalitarian, theocratic, and fascist systems that rely on outside threats to maintain their legitimacy rather than having an internal structure that binds people into a mutualistic community. That core spirit is kind of why I would like to see some full novels set in the Nova Terra Interregnum at some point where we can get some political storylines that involve people shrugging off the Imperial rule durring a period of relative stability and security.
To me, the interesting question isn't really should the Emperor have left humans in charge of themselves, but rather why his efforts to establish a galactic human culture were always so secondary to conquest when he knew it was the more important aspect of the plan - supposedly.
perhaps the Emperor was aware of the threat of the Necrons and the Tyranids so knew the legions would have been needed.
I could be wrong but I think you are hitting on the points guliman was as well. He never stated the space marines weren't corruptible or self interested/etc. He was just stating that while looking at the space marines with such a harsh lens, he totally overlooked the fact that humans can also do some sick shit and really have motivations of their own. So he regrets not taking that into account with his rules and laws. He also regrets cutting down the legions so badly into small groups that these corrupt men could also use them without being noticed for their sinister plot, they could also get away with a lot more because of the lack of communication/unification of the space marines.
Again, I could be wrong, but that is how I took it. He was criticizing himself for not looking at humanities faults before enacting all his crap.
Gulliman also separated the Imperial Army and Navy so they could no longer go renegade en mass, however this meant that they became reactionary and defensive and only extremely charismatic outliers like Macharius or Sebastian Thor could weld them together to reconquer significant territory. Such campaigns were clearly few and far between
Of course that was his intention. He created the High Lords for a reason.
A philosophical question for you. Do the Astartes represent the aristocrats of the UK, and the swing back to the Astartes return to power represents a desire to return the UK to the former glories of the Empire.
His ultimate goal was for humanity to enter into a secured pocket of the webway, safe from Chaos and the coming necrons and tyranids and all other enemies he knew where coming. while him and the Primarchs and their legions would remain behind to fight against the endless enemies, that is after all what they were made for. Endless War. after which we would return, or in the more likely event of their failure He would then have sealed us away forever in that pocket universe either by means of the golden throne or the safe guard that Vulkan forged into it.
Was he wrong to put trust in humanity yes. He was however right to have hope that humanity could do it.
This is why I will always be loyal to the emperor. because no matter how fkcd up were we. he always trusted humanity's ability.
The Emperor? Wrong? Methinks I smell Heresy Rho...
03:38 I say this exact phrase to myself often.
Ha. 😁
Yes he was. Also Ultramar isn't the only realm being rebuilt Baal says Hi.
Where do you get this art of the emperor?
I think emperor had roles for certain legions after crusade, not all of them.
I think following legions and their primarchs would have been purged after succesful crusade:
World eaters
Nightlords
Word bearers
Legions only, primarchs left alive
Emperors children
Thoudsand sons
Blood angels (bit debatable)
Those legions did not have such a value in more peaceful galaxy. I think the ones who had biggest role after success were:
Ultramarines
Ironwarriors
Imperial fists
Salamanders
It was the Imperium created by the Emperor not mortals that would fulfill whatever goal the Emperor had.
I think the emperor’s motives were questionable, I’m not so sure he did intend for your average human to rule at the end of his journey. When John grammaticus is talking to erda in the saturnine. She tells him that he believed he and the perpetuals were the next step in human evolution and that he was frustrated with the pace of evolution so he sought to hurry it along. Now if this is true then I can’t imagine his plan is to end with the high lords council governing terra. I believe this may be another truth he hides from mankind and his sons.
Half the legions fall to chaos and cause the biggest galactic catastrophe since the birth of Slaanesh. But no, it's totally G-mans fault for everything being bad because he saw limiting the power of the marines so as to prevent a similar event occurring, especially as his dad is now a corpse, as a wise decision at the time.
I am curious if the emperor went to other planets during the dark age of technology. Or if he never left Earth.
The first thing normal humans did was turning to religion as soon as they had the chance to. Praysing the god emperor also meant in the end that they would praise his counterparts. The emperor knew that very well. Would you leave everything to humans now they would just start praying to other beeings agains asap.
Therefore: As long as the chaos gods do exist (maybe even the tyranids), there may not be a self governing humanity. Hell... if they would govern themselfes I guess the first thing they would do is forming hundreds of independent empires fighting themselves.
I could literally see gman talking with bjorn the fell handed seeking council and bjorn just word for word your explanations back to him
It has always been the bane of humanity, even today, that we are so terrible at governing ourselves. In the end an elite ALWAYS takes over and forms a ruling oligarchy, even within democracies. An oligarchy that at first may be willing to take into account the best interest of the voters, but as we say today, that over time they become more and more distanced from the people they rule, that they think they know better and that their rule over us is justified as they are better and smarter then the common plebs. I reckon even in the Imperium that the Emperor had in mind, the one where normal men would rule, he would still be there to intervene if need be. In which case normal men wouldn't rule at all. It would be the fiction of self rule.
That’s a function of governance. As James Madison said, “If Men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern Men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary.”
The simple fact is that we can’t draw anything substantial from the situation in 40k, because unlike the real world, there is external threats orders of magnitude more powerful than any one nation on earth has over another. The actual solution to governance in 40k is the same as it is on earth now: localism, decentralization of power to as small a polity as possible. Obviously, the fact there are external threats of such strength makes this infeasible.
In other words, the Imperium the day before Guilliman’s return is not just the preference, but the only possible outcome. There is no other way - unless the end of humanity is an option, that is.
Not Rho, don't fail me like that! The Emperor CAN'T be wrong!
How about the theory that the Tau were manifested or evolved by the Emperor’s consciousness into his dream culture
How would that make them of Flesh instead of Warp stuff? Also imo but I feel like Emps would manifest almost a grey goo kinda entity
@@Subject_Keter not that he manifested them in reality but rather the reason why the huge leap in technology that was seen in a short time between discovery of the race and the sudden appearance of advanced tech. Just a theory, not mine to uphold
He was probably not wrong, he allowed mankind to rule but it was probably with the intent that he was still around to look after mankind.
Did science gave way to the creed? I always felt that it was the hording by the mechanicus that caused the technological downfall.
I would disagree with you that Guillaman meant “mean of poor virtue” he spoke of “lesser men”. I also think he was right to break up the legions of old, one need only look at Badab for that. Especially think that’s true after all the loyalist Primarch disappeared or died
I could not disagree more. In the US politicians are so far elevated and removed from every day people, you can see how out of touch they are. And it does become a thing of ruling for personal self interest and not for the good of mankind. It’s the ability to fool men into believing the Politicians still care and understand what it means to be a regular person that gets them elected and allows us to not do anything good.
Difficult to use hindsight to say RG shouldn’t have busted up the Legions, since that completely ignores the context of the time. If you place any weight or logic to the narrative as it seems to be designed, RG’s decision was based on the political and practical realities of the situation. Part of the whole thing with the traitors was their hubris and not being willing to be relegated to glorified guard dogs of humanity, was it not? Keeping the Legions as they were then without the Emperor or Malcador would have been a powder keg. Even if one of them was Regent, much harder to take orders from a brother who once was your equal versus your father or someone like Malcador.
I think guilliman was right, most of us would look at his decision from normal citizen pointy of view and think that he will enslave humans. But in reality it is humans that enslaved humans.
Breaking the legions is the reason for humanity being idiots and time and time again self sabotaging itself, whether Primarch, Astartes, Reg or even Emperor? I can't believe people still whine about Imperium Secundus, or the Codex or the Chapter creation, its been 10,000 years people get with the program.
Emperor been right in theory, but clearly very wrong on practice.
before the long night humanity governed itself quite well and stretched across the stars just fine. The emporer was right in his intentions of letting mankind rule, if it wasn't for the warp storms created by the birth of slanesh big E wouldn't have even needed to step up.
You know, given what information you shared, I really wonder if the Emperor wanted to do a Diocletian and just retire once everything was done. (I mean, the _Roboutian Heresy_ also went there, so it's not exactly news.)
😂😂 and what exactly does an immortal God Emperor do with retirement?
@@sebode87 Just... existing. Being away from politics and all until he's needed. 😆
But, you know, without being a god.
@@sebode87 I dont know , how about NOT being a corpse battery strapped to a torture chair watching everything just go to shiit.
Maybe rule by Thunder Warriors??
The Federation was most likely administrated, if not outright ruled, by AI sooo...probably?
He trusted us and we failed him. It hurts bros. 😭
Never underestimate the Emperor. He knows all and see different paths and plans. The heresy may have delayed his goals butt... All hail the Emperor.
I dont think chapters vs legions would make much difference. Legions would probably have staked out big areas and then become nations or some bullshit. Chapters run around and do good where they can. Neither system is great
Considering 40k is basically dune rip off I assume his last plan was to get the primarch betray him but later on so he would be able to defeat chaos and the x3nos but then become a tyran like letos was
From what i remember humanity did reach it Highest level and it feel we Humans for all our intelligence,charisma,bravery...... are still humans at the end and we are flawed which is not a bad thing might i add but i think Guilliman might played a Roll but what if the Legions Still existed and some power Hungry Chapter Master gets gets corrupted by the neverborn and leads 50-80 thousand Space Marines it would have been another full blown Horus Heresay which after some also scary events might ended the imperium and give birth to another God THE IFs are limetless but yeah i Think at the end the Humas were more responsible for the imperium decaying thank you and soory for bad tiping English isint my best thing :)
He should have had a government body but not to rule humanity as a whole.
All worlds should govern themselves but remain loyal to the emperor. We as a people should elect a government with the blessing of the emperor or Astarte lord.
Leman Russ was the best Primarch along with Corax and Sanguinius.
The Emperor will be back along with his executioner and the other loyal sons and Valdor.
Another great video thank you wolf lord Rho
The only thing Russ is best at is being a failure.
@@SparseS17 he only failed to kill Horus but could any of the others have got closer than what Russ did. Dorn failed to get to the Emperor in time and I'm going to say the only reason Sanguinius saw a chink in Horus's armour was from where Russ stabbed at Horus
@@blairtaggart5243 The Lion Would have done a far better job.
There is no scale at which democracy breaks down. It's fractally scaleable in structure.
When monarchies ruled Europe the vast majority lived in almost total poverty with regular famines.
This has been reflected in modern disasterous experiments in authoritarian rule (e.g. the mass murder of Naziism and Stalinism/Maoism and the second-world embarrassment that is modern China and Russia).
The wealthiest societies are rich because they're democratic not the other way round.
True
When you give people enough motivation, they can do it all.
Make them Motivatied? Fuck all progress.
Democracy is dumb... a republic, a constitutional republic can be for ever.
if you put AI and tecnology into it... it can last for ever, authoritarian regimes are not good... they cant last, why do you think north korea can stand? china... china is authoritarian but no all that much, even then the economic fall is going to happen no matter what...
@@ArlindoBuriti this is a joke
I've always felt like Warhammer 40k wasn't about humanity's peak but humanity's end.
The human race has reached its zenith thousands of years before even the Unification wars on Terra that came long after the collapse.
Men have been a dominant power in the galaxy long before the Imperium but their time has passed. Their technology turned against them and their galaxy-wide empire broke completely.
I feel like what the Emperor tried to do was to give humanity one last chance to have a new (and final) golden age but in the end his vision was flawed because he couldn't see it was already too late. All of his dreams were just the delusions of an Immortal being who refused to forget how great mankind could have been in the past and now men are basically taking everyone in the galaxy with them in their fall.
Sounds like the thinking of a mind weakened by heresy. Remember, it only takes one small crack in the wall of faith to shatter it and invite in the damnation of the warp! The Emperor protects!
If the other races are so W e a k to get dragged to their deaths, what does that say about them?
Ironically if humanity pops fell Alot, the Universe would be more stable as the Choas Gods basically shiver up and something /new/ will take over.
It’s The Crimson King’s fault
2:29 He seemingly has a much different view overall during the dark imperium trilogy imo. The conversations he has with felix over his newly appointed position of Tetrach sell that. Felix calls humanity intelligent creatures on their own but like animals as a herd which deeply saddens robot girlyman. On top of which Rowboat has a few other moments with his human underlings that make me think the one portion of the emperors plans he fully supported was Human self governance. Also all the other comments are already spelling it out but humanity did best when it was humanity ruling itself admittedly they were in better conditions but so far all we have seen with everything from the Horus Heresy to the War of Badab show that "uplifted" humanity is not only less capable but perhaps even more prone to flaws that bring regimes down. Dont ask the genetically engineered warrior to administer education funding.