Let's Get This Video 2,000 Likes for Sub Zero! Tons of people are misinterpreting what I said in this video. Being low tier is not the same as being terrible. Shao Kahn in MK11 was actually bad and players were still able to win tournaments with him. It's all about maximizing the tools your character has. My point in this video was that Sub Zero has options and abilities that many characters do not. Which is why his damage is below average. That said, I also mention in this video that Sub Zero should get a buff in some areas and that if he did get buffed all around that it would be fine too. As for the "Pro players say he is bad" keep in mind they play at a different level than you and 90% of players. Against an average MK player you can absolutely win with Sub Zero and in fact you can win consistently. Many pros said Kollector was bad and Sonicfox bodied them with that exact character. They also said D'Vorah was terrible and once again they got destroyed by that same character. They say Nitara is bad and she has already reached top 8 in several tournaments and even won a couple. Possibly because Kameos can make any character good in this game. Sub Zero is definitely low tier, but he is nowhere near terrible. You can absolutely get wins with him just like any other low tier character. You can be hopeful for buffs without downplaying the character. Goro makes his overhead 100% safe and still gives you full combo on hit. Plus he lets you combo off the low.
I think they made Sareena into Bi-Han’s best Kameo for damage on purpose. In Mythologies, Bi-Han’s compassion saved Sareena, and if the writers have a shred of writing talent, Sareena will save Bi-Han in the new era.
Love how subzero gets nerfed for doing 50 percent 3 bars but you got raiden and baraka out here doing 50 percent 1 bar now he can barely get 30 percent mid screen with 1 bar 💀💀
Dawgs point is that sub zero has multiple easy ways to engage you to full combos compared to other characters without any meter being spent Still, I do agree that sub zero needs a buff
@@DaniPino7020 Yeah getting 30% from a meterless combo is great imo. But I do think he needs a buff because it seems that spending meter to try to max out his damage feels like a waste.
@@DaniPino7020except he doesn’t. He has the most react-able strings in the game. His 50/50s don’t work and his damage is mid at best. Even when he gets you in the corner his ice clone is so bad now that he can get poked through it unless the opponent is knocked down. Even then all you have to do to negate that is stand still and block for 1 second until it disappears.
I completely disagree. He needs to be buffed And his freeze time needs to put back to the way it was in the beta. Also i believe other youtubers proved he doesn’t actually have 50 50s. Sub zero gets around thirty. Most every other character gets 40 and raiden baraka get 50 geras 60 and scorpion 90%
Yes, he needs buffs which Underdawg addresses, but he also said that if you think Sub is bad, you’re playing him wrong which I agree with as well! No disrespect, but Sub has never really been a crazy high damage character. He’s more of a character that controls space. Yes, in Mkx he’s gotten high damage combos, but he has always been more about controlling space than crazy high damage combos!
None of the cast has "true" 50-50's in this game. Baraka's overhead is also reactable. But that's never how 50-50s actually work. They work because of the accumulation of the mental stack in fighting games. Players don't just alternate between two moves in a match. They also throw, cancel moves into specials, stop strings early, and throw in hail-mary fatal blows sometimes. Then there are situational scenarios that add to the mental stack, like low life, empty resources, what round it is, if you're behind, etc. All this adds to the mental stack, and then all of a sudden that 24-frame overhead comes and you aren't ready for it because you were worrying about a million other things and you get hit by it. That's how Sub-Zero can still catch people.
On paper it's reactable, but while playing online it's a 50/50 if the connection isn't good. Depending on who I'm up against I can either react to it 100% of the time, or never
Actually start up is 24 frames. On hit it’s a lil over 30. Plus it’s really hard to time the cameo for a block confirm. I would not say that’s a valid excuse
Sorry Dog but you are clueless about Sub zero's problems. How come you didn't even mention that his ice clone has such a long cooldown and recovery that even blind man can punish it with armour moves. How about that EX clone uses 2 bars for absolutely no benefit whatsoever. How about the fact that all of his strings have gaps between them which you can easily flawless block or armour through. EVERY SINGLE MOVE IN EVERY SINGLE STRING. Try to play sub zero against players who know how to counter him and they will blow you up.
As a player who used to love MK on the first PlayStation and just recently bought a Ps5, Sub-Zero is incredible for beginners and someone getting back into the mechanics of this game.
Sub zero isn’t bad. He’s just infinitely worse than everyone else. Good lows and overhead, decent mixes and pressure. Extremely punishable and predictable character, and some of the worse specials in the game. It’s the fact you need to hit 3-4 combos to kill when every other character only needs 1-2 off any touch
That’s what I’ve been tryna tell my guys. Comp wise he barely stands a chance. I’m blown cause I rock wit sub zero I’m still gonna play him but it sucks to know that even he’s better than mk11 everyone else is capable of so much more
@@nobody4732 Kitana and Havik literally need Kameos to break 30% while Tanya needs meter to break 30% along with a couple other character. The fact that Sub Zero gets meterless 30% from overhead and low starters is great. If you add Sareena then he is easily getting 40% which is also good. He doesn’t have godly damage but he’s got more tools than most characters
He's not bad it's just everything he does can be done better by other characters and in most cases easier too, there's a reason one of the most beloved characters in the franchise has no more than 5 mains in top 1000
He needs a buff for sure. Have to work really hard to compete against most characters...his snowball is very slow and then when the slide is blocked you get hit with a 40-50% combo. Can get zoned out so easy so I feel like once you get a combo going it needs to hurt the opponent more for sure.
You can tell he's not played any games against real people with sub because ice ball is so slow that against projectiles it won't even come out in time or if it does they can block it he has some of worst specials and strings in the game plus you can get hit through ice clone
It’s not a 50/50 its absolutely reactable, his specials are below average, his damage is below average, his screen control is below average, his projectile below average, has poor conversions, and NEEDS kameo because he gets punished by nearly everything due to poor frame data. He’s easily one of the worse in the game, only saved from unplaybility by kameo’s like goro, or kano.
The problem with his damage isn’t that it’s bad, it’s that it’s bad compared to everyone else. Scorpion has a meterless combo that deals more damage than any sub zero combo you did in this video. Along with that, you didn’t mention that sbubby can’t jail at all. You can armor through the 3rd, and even 2nd hit of all of his strings. And the overhead you mentioned is pretty slow. You’re not hitting that overhead on anyone unless their closing their eyes. Along with that the ice ball is so god damn useless. If your character has a projectile god forbid a fast one, you can use it on reaction and hit him before he can convert off of it. And the ice Klone is really not that good. It’s out for 1 second. So you’re only counter zoning for 1 second. And the worst part, that you couldn’t even hide in that video, is that he gets less damage for using meter. And you keep saying that sbubby isn’t a damage dealer, but in mkx, where you said it started that trend, he dealt 51% with full resources. In mk1 he gets 40% for using full resources. Meanwhile characters like scorpion, raiden, kenshi, and Baraka are getting 50% with 1 meter. If anything you’re trying your hardest to not mention what’s bad about the character. And you keep saying he has 50/50s but you also fail to mention that he only has 1 overhead not tied to a string. And it’s 24 frames. And his other overhead can be armored through, after the first hit, you won’t even get the overhead out. I don’t doubt that you’re not knowledgeable on this subject. But you’re failing to talk about the real problems with this character
also I believe If u turn frame data on the overhead on hit actually comes out to a little over 30 frames. Ppl are crazy for thinking he’s broke in beta. Maybe the dmg was too much but still. Not “broken”
@@Aoimusha nah for sure and over time I got used to sub and rarely lost to him. I think I meant more so the dmg he gets off of the mixups. Mind u that’s when he had mixups but then the change the frames and it’s no longer 50/50. I’ll be happy if he just gets his iceclone and frames back to normal. If they ever do fix him I’ll gladly take the dmg buff too but I don’t see them fixing him
Facts on all of this. Its not even just his damage. His basic neutral game is bad in general. All of his 3 hit strings are terrible and lead to nothing. They dont launch or bounce. Some of his move are also redundant. Example: His 2,1,2 string does the same thin as his 1,2,2. Its the same with string 4,4 and b, 3,4 and all of these strings lead to...nothing. No bounce...no launch...no combo extention. This version of sub was poorly designed from the very fundentals.
His Ice clone can be armored through by anything and with his recovery frames being so high they don't even have to guess, they can just see you throw it and react for a punish, and the enhanced version that costs 2 bars is still unsafe as most Kameos can punish it on reaction still. I think he needed a nerf from the beta but i think they went a bit overboard when you have characters who can spend one bar and a kameo for 50%. Not to mention they also slowed everything down, the overhead IS react-able, block low and react to the overhead
- Everyone else 250 dmg and fatal blow combo = 500 dmg.. - Subzero 250 dmg and fatal blow = 380 dmg... Ok, here's the thing. Subzero is amazing however, you genuinely need to use every single thing in his arsenal to make him that good. However every single character is like 4 button hits to go to 50%. I notice this alot in MK 1, the harder to use characters have low damage compared to character that are easier to use and have high damage.. where's the balance.. I don't think he should have pre day one damage but jesus you can hit 290 dmg and then hit a fatal blow and he caps of at 380 damage. You telling me that is balanced when everyone else can caps at 500+ damage ? ... that makes no sense..his multiplier needs a buff because at this point its garbage. Or else the only other way to balance it is drop everyones multiplier so that damage outputs are similar.. Does that mean you cant use him ? Nah he is strong in the hands of player who understands and can execute him with perfection but that skill that NO ONE in this game requires to play therefore the outrage. I would make everyone like him, fine balance between skill and fun. Or buff him a little so you arent hitting a million buttons to simple put 300 damage
He doesn't have as much 50/50 as people keep pushing. He only has one overhead that can extend into a combo without the use of specific cameos or bars. That one overhead only works on scared opponents or opponents who can only block low. The majority of players you meet do not get hit by it. If you miss it, you can special out of it, but that requires you to absolutely know your opponent is going to block it because the window to special out of it is smaller than the flawless block window. Seriously, if the opponent blocks it, then it's too late to react and special out of. If you try to mix up low, the enemy can quickly block low or just armoring through the last hit. Literally had someone tea-bagging my last hit, going low too late and still getting the block off on multiple occasions. Other times, they just interrupt my last hit. Not to mention, all his attacks that end a combo string cannot combo into a special unless you use a cameo. 90% of the roster can combo into a special from any hit to get a free 300+ damage combo while Sub-zero can only deal like 70-90. So I'd argue Sub-zero has the bottom 3 50/50 game. Ice clone only works against players who are running on jet-fuel and red bull. Most players are not getting hit by it. in fact, most players are punishing it. His glacial dive kick is mid. Once you've seen it once, it's only working twice at best. The first for the kick and the second for the light jab after missing the kick which can still be punished. His long-range game is weak asl. Ice slide is EXTREMELY predictable and is as equally punishable. You're better off slowly dashing forward unless you know your opponent likes throwing stuff or Kenshi when he pulls his sword out. His ice ball is slow asl. Most of the time, if the enemy is attacking long, you're getting hit and they're blocking by the time your ice ball is going across the screen.
All you talked about was his combo damage. Not once did you mention his neutral game. Most of sub zeros best strings, you can flat out armor thru. Which means no pressure. He doesn’t have good advancing moves which means you can out space him pretty easily. His “50/50” is react-able as hell. On top of that he’s mad punishable. Combo damage is just one part of the puzzle. Sub is trash tier.
I picked up Liu Kang and was very confused on why his spinning kick isn't his best combo ender. But after some practice i found that the kick is often better when you don't want to use the metere but the dragon is better when you do. It's really fun to discover different ways to play characters in this game
The short flame teleport also has a unique property that allows you to jump immediately after you hit the EX version, I forgot if it has to be a punish but there’s unexplored territory in that area for me
@@jaidora yeah. It not only can be canceled into jump but you are also untochable when doing the ex which makes it a very good anti-air. It also can combo off of your F1,4. I like the combo because i then do air 2,1 into Sonya into air 1,2 into air fire ball. Combo looks good and does 30%. Maybe you can extend it if you do Sonya again or instead of jumping the second time just stay grounded but i didn't really feel the need to do more damage so far.
Bro, you completely forget that characters in this game on average have the potential to delete half of your health bar off of one combo alone. You’re right that 30% is good, but that’s only if you isolate that number. If you compare that number to the numbers of literally any other character, that’s horrendously low. In a game as broken and stupid as MK1, 30% from one combo is not good. It may have been good in the past, but now? That shit won’t fly
With sub zero my main yes he needs a buff. But with this character you play more mind games than usual. It's either your opponent calls it right or not and get punished. His pokes are pretty good so I normally follow it up with mix ups that I can cancel out of or commit. You have to be constantly unpredictable or your gonna get punished by the top tier characters. And be mindful with the ice clone while playing characters that can teleport because that move got too nerfed.
I play sub zero a decent amount and in competitive the first game I usually destroy, but after that I get predicted and punished lmao he needs more damage at least to make the combos worth
Exactly he’s way too predictable and gets punished heavy for trying to go for his bread and butters. The more people that play easier he will become for other people to block.
@@nellothetiger8654 Those 5 are typically at the very bottom of the best player's tier lists, so it's not a personal opinion. Fun Fact, Diff's tier list has Sub in the top 10.
You can choose to take the low against sub and eat 23-25% MAX. Or you can choose to always block low and react to the overhead, which is super easy. Damage is nerfed to the ground. All of his ice combo extensions scale SUPER BAD. Ice slide is slow on startup, eats projectiles all the time, is super baitable, super punishable, is really slow travel speed (reactable at a distance) and can be punished by back jump almost 100% of the time unless slide itself is a punish. ice spike is punishable on hit, over head is unsafe, low gets no damage, ice clone is purely a counter poke/eat 1 projectile move. Ice ball can’t combo naturally. His projectile is not fullscreen. His strength is in counter zoning, (but he’s a mixup character) and his best move to get damage is a REACTIONARY ice clone. well guess what if they have a teleport (technically anyone can because of kameo) then good bye clone mindgames. Ex clone costs 2 bars and for what? It does nothing a well timed clone couldn’t do. He gets LESS damage for using meter in wayyyyy too many scenarios. His anti wake-up tech bags around 25% for 2 kameos and 2 bars. His mid is 15 frames(not that good) his pressure is lacking, he resorts to reactive ice clone, Ice ball spam, risking the overhead, or down one clone just to open up people… AS A MIX UP CHARACTER!! HE IS JUST BAD. Quit trying to downplay how bad he is. Tell the truth. He is soooo bad
Taking the low if the Sub is using Sonya as a kameo is an easy way to lose 35%. Choosing to take the overhead instead is another easy 35% if he's using Sonya. You're taking in the character by himself and not including the fact that his weaknesses can easily be solved by pairing him with a kameo. Scared of being unsafe? Use Cyrax/Goro. Want more damage? Use Sonya/Sareena. Want to have more Mix Up's? Use Frost. He isn't a bad character, even in higher ranks, it just takes being good with neutral and knowing how to play the character and the characters your fighting against.
You're on point, his OH is reactable af. Dunno what underdawg is smoking but I'd say sub is easily the worst character with all gaps in his strings and slow mid.
While yes his damage isn't exactly terrible, it is worse than majority of the other cast when they can get 40% for one bar and he barely hits 30% for the same meter. His damage is not the only bad part about him. Ice clone is supposed to be a "safe escape" move and it's not. Ice clone can easily be reacted to and punished. Even ex ice clone is still easily reactable and punishable and it costs 2 whole bars. Also sub physically cannot jail people. All of his strings have 2 different gaps that you can armour through and sub can do literally nothing to stop that. If he tries to bait it, he gives up his turn completely. He also does not have a true 50/50. The overhead is easily reactable even online because of how slow it is, and every single "mix" he has is unsafe. Sub Zero really needs buffs to bring him in line with the rest of the cast
@@JokerAnjero He can get 400 - 415 damage with Sarena with no bar of meter. On top of that he has good footsies with his normals. Just throw out standing 2's as it safe, back 4's, move back and db2 klone charge for space control. 2,1 to whiff punish into bnb. I'm not having any problems with the character compared to shao.
I mean, sure, he's got a 50/50, but one of those 50s is his back 2, which has 24 start-up frames, which any decent player is going to be able to counter with a standard 6-7 start-up frame standing attack string. Now, sure you can use kameos make it safe, but then you're just adding pressure to a fairly read-able launcher, which is good, but not great. Compare that with Scorpion's forward 4 launcher, which hits high, but only has 17 start-up frames, and is -6 on block, making it safe. I think we can be honest about Sub's shortcomings. If they can reduce his back 2's start-up frames to 19 or 20, I think he'd be in a much better position.
Now that ive had my time with the game at a casual level I wanted to come back to this as someone who's a Sub main, no, he isnt bad, it just seems like when I pick up other characters they are able to deal out more damage for less work, or are able to squeeze out more damage neutral rather than being in the corner. Sub Zero sometimes just doesnt quite have enough in so many situations, by sacrificing something that a character might not have that Sub has, Sub loses something else that may affect him in a worse way. Shao has damage, Smoke has mobility, Raiden has options, etc etc. For me though I think with Kameos he can be made better, and I also think that with the idea that Sub is a Jack-of-all-trades, I do truly dont feel pinned down with my kameo choice, whereas some characters its like cereal and milk. I think maybe, and this is as a Sub main, id like for his damage to be buffed, just ever so slightly, theres a middle ground from the beta and full release, other than that he's okay, and If it was a perfect world Id want ice clone to be buffed and his frozen damage scaling not to be so insane, (but the memes are really funny so idk). #buffsubzeropls lets see what happens Season 3, because even if they dont touch him, this game is still so much fun, and no, Sub-Zero isnt bad.
All I really want is for his f1 mid to be slightly faster (15 frames is really annoying to work around, 11 or 12 would be better) and for Deadly Vapors scaling to be reduced so he has more reason to spend meter on combos.
I love you, man, but this take is just not it. you can start combo with f12, ex fd4, and then hit the overhead, and it makes it safer, sure. until it doesn't. you get poked after f12, because it's -7 on block. you get poked on the combo that is supposed to be safe. Cage's 21 starter is -1, his 11 is 3 on block, -5 with full 112, his 44 is 15 on block. there is no minus, I didn't miss anything. I don't know what's the reason of many people saying "duh you just don't know how to play sub-zero" when breaking his moves down clearly shows that he has a disadvantage just on his combo starters alone. his ice ball takes 40 frames for cast alone, not talking about the speed of ice ball itself. if Sub-Zero casts anywhere else except the full screen, he's getting punished, and if he lands the ice ball from full screen, it thaws out before he can get to the opponent. his only way is ice slide, which knocks opponent down, defeating the purpose of ice ball. yeah, he can use EX and Goro, but 1 bar and 1 kameo just to start a combo?
sub zero doesnt have 50/50 his overhead is way too slow to be an actual 50/50, it is completely reactable, even online with 60ms ping. it is considerably slower than the AVERAGE human reaction time which is a 1/5 of a second or faster, and subzero overhead is 24 frames which is well over 1/3 of a second. maybe if youre in 150ping online you cant react but in tournament it will never open anyone up as a mixup because it isnt a mixup.
In my opinion, Sub Zero is the best Character in the game. His Spinal tap and Ice ball ability spam can be super op if you time it right. I will never see why people think he is "bad" maybe not the best, but I think saying he is bad is ridiculas. Also, with Khameleon he is just very powerful.
Sub-Zero is bottom one bro. Gaps all over the place, trash frames, reactable overhead, ice clone is punishable ON REACTION by 90% on the cast. You keep saying “50/50”. This isn’t a 50/50. The overhead is damn near 30 frames. My grandma is reacting to that. Sub-Zero has bad neutral, bad frames, bad combo damage, no staggers, and no mix ups. Trash character.
Disagree he needs to be buffed his output is significantly different when his counterparts. Ice Klone duration. I think 3 of his strings have gas. His mid got out to 15 instead of 12, probably more. He needs a buff BAD
Right, lets just forget to mention that sub's strings all have gaps, iceball is 40 frame startup so lol gl using that, you can react to ice clone cancel with any armor..etc etc
There is a laundry list of shit that has to be fixed with Sub Zero, let us not just pretend that he is particularly out of this world. The players are not asking for him to be at the level of Jhonny or Liu Kang, but the least they could do is fix his recently broken ice clones which have lost the ability to juggle, his ice ball has to get buffed for a faster start up, and his over-all mobility speed needs to be increased. None of these are unrealistic things to ask.
his fireball does not need a buff, its slow start up bc it jails for a full combo. sub being "slow" is a trade off for how easy it is for him to get dmg from his kit
The Reason why people are mad is because , almost every character can do 40 + damage . Why can Raiden and not Sub Zero ? and its true , but still I main Sub Zero and he is pretty darn good ;)
It's not that Sub-Zero is bad, it's that the really good characters in this game are fucked up lol The Sub-Zero nerfs really make me wonder what NRS wants with this game though. If they want lower damage, why didn't they nerf all the other damage? I don't really get it lol
I am okay with low damage and wall carry and the 50/50 too but he definitely could a few better frames like scorpion d1 plus 5 on block. How ever sub zero is punishable if he uses ice clone and the B2 is to reactable they should make it a tiny bit faster for make the 50/50 working like a 50/50 .
As someone who mains sub-Zero, Sub-Zero fucking sucks, if you’re opponent knows how to block it’s almost impossible to get combos, his attacks are so slow that you’re pretty much forced to use only pokes & throws & if you have a bad connection those don’t even work a lot of the time. He’s literally the most unsafe character & even if you master him you have to put in way more effort than your opponent to win.
Not mentioned: his basic strings all have gaps that can be mashed through his advancing mid is painfully slow his iceball is basically pointless his clone is now very delayed. And he has low damage
As a sub zero main, he’s pretty good if you know how to use him. The damage is good but horrible compared to a good chunk of the roster. Last night, I was labbing and did a 22 hit combo then hit a fatal blow and it did just as much damage as a baraka meterless, no fb combo. And almost none of the top people use him, he’s used more as a kameo than a fighter. There are fighters who do everything better than he does, and that’s why he needs a buff, bell I don’t even want him to go back to beta, but just enough for him to be actually “viable”.
Bro this character literally get carried by a good kameo and us . He is crap . But I love the way how good we are cuz we clapping top tier chars with skill and read 😂
Sorry but this is one of the worst breakdowns watch people who main this character saying his 50/50 is reactable and his ice clone is punishable on reaction and his string have gaps in them, don’t reply by saying no his 50/50 is un reactable give us proof, it is reactable under 120ms
No one's downplaying sub zero. Sub has to work harder for his gameplan than any other character in the game and that is a fact. He is playing a completely different game than everyone else is. Every single other character feels like their full potential has been unleashed. Even other perceived low tier characters like nitara and kitana can be absolutely cracked but sub's ceiling under perfect conditions and an ok to bad opponent is still mid at best. He NEEDS a buff. He feels like he is chained while every other character has been let loose entirely. He is still a good character on paper but this is mk1. Paper doesn't matter. Not saying sub has to be god tier either but the devs need to buff him. Creators are supposed to be pushing for the buff and granted most are, but i can see a vid like this stopping a developer or maybe making them more cautious about buffing sub and that doesn't help. Because the devs weren't "cautious" when designing characters like raiden or johnny or kenshi or baraka or mileena so why should they be for sub or any other character besides the "famous five". Ideally i think every sub main would love to see that turn into the "sinister six" with sub being the sixth member. But the buffs do not have to go that far. Btw i am fairly neutral in this, my favorite mk character is sub, but i am maining reiko and liu and even if they buff sub, i doubt that will change who i main. So no bias here.
@@thegamerword.9739you did say it’s reactable which is very true, but you also said “I don’t know what you’re on about with this 50/50 nonsense”. That’s where Goro comes in. He can help with that, Frost can too. In my opinion, I think Goro’s better though, because Frost can’t make that overhead plus! Also, I literally just made a Raiden rage quit with that combo, so thank you TrueUnderdawg!!!
@@wolfhunterplays3954I think he means as far as combo starters go the skull is the only over head he's got and if you pop Goro you're not getting that combo.
@@infamous-riv3ra36by itself, yes it is easily reactable and unsafe. As far as Goro goes, you can actually still get a combo on hit, a small one in comparison to the full thing, but a combo nonetheless.
He def needs help in the damage scaling department for sure... That EX Ground freeze got hit so hard to the point where it is not even worth it to really spend the bar on sadly... I understand nerfing the scaling if you use the move more than once, but what they did there is a bit absurd hahaha! Great video, regardless of what people are saying I have always played Sub Zero and I love him to death so I am willing to do my best to make him work, I will have to try that Goro assist!
Sub-Zero's damage is not a problem. From what I have seen, Sub-Zero's real issues are his combos in theory are good for meterless damage but they are not good in practice. They rely heavily on the opponent making a mistake rather than opening them up. Also his clone is some other weird shit on its own. I get that it is unsafe but the EX version takes two bars and is arguably more unsafe than his normal version. I am baffled as to why it is so costly when it doesn't do anything. Havik has a move that takes two bars and it GUARANTEES a combo because the move after it is unblockable and unavoidable. Its easy to see why its two bars. Sub-Zero's on the other hand does... what exactly? Exactly what is the EX ice clone supposed to do that the normal can't? Anti air?
@@Lospollos24 he is NOT. A 50/50 character. His frame data for the overhead and low are so wildly different that you can literally just block low and react to the overhead. This isn't MK11 where he actually did have one. This Sub has way to big of a frame gap to have that be called a 50/50.
@@theprinceofthebadlands5204 ALL overheads like that we’re meant to be slower than lows your point? I’ve faced good subzero players and it’s not as react-able as you think it is you’re just bad
@@Lospollos24 if that's your logic you can look at MK Tom Brady, who has mained Subzero competently for decades, talk about how this is not a true 50/50. I'll trust an actual competitive player over Underdawg on a character he has used since the 2000s. A true 50/50 is when there is such a small frame gap between the two attacks, you literally have to guess which attack is coming out. Subzeros "50/50' in this game has a frame gap of 12 frames. His over head takes 24 frames to come out while his low is 12. With a gap that large, you can just reliably fuzzy guard the 50/50. Brady is in his 40s and can react to this everytime. Certainly younger people can to.
Sub is bottom tier but hes also B tier I think he'd be fine in a game where baraka and Raiden aren't walking around. Raiden has a safe 50/50 for 50 percent. Sub has a unsafe 50/50 for 32 maybe. I guess what I'm saying is nerf Raiden
Ya I just hit grand master and I will say his 50/50 is not real you can react. His clone if your fast enough can be punished with cameo or teleport. If they don’t make the overhead safe with cameo they are dead most characters I have tried get at least 42% off 1 bar. He just feels like a free win when I face him.
As a Bi-Han main, I do have to work quite a bit to win matches. I think a damage buff would literally solve everything wrong with him (because it’s JUST his damage that’s the problem)
Its not just his damage. His normals strings are terrible and lead to nothing and are mostly unsafe. Also, his ONE deffensive tool to keep him safe(the clone)barely functions as it should. Andy move can armor through and the recovery from using it is absurd...
It’s not a mixup if it’s seeable lol. That’s not a guess. Also every major useful string of his has a gap. You may fuck up wi-fi warriors but that’s not working in any offline tournament against half decent players. Sub isn’t trash but he’s definitely gimped.
Agreed most people in here are the wifi warriors so he’s not bad by those standards. Attending a tournament would definitely recommend having a 2nd pocket character to be safe
Tom Brady did a true breakdown on why this character struggles. He goes into gaps and unsafe strings and what can you do to improve him. Is he horrible? Go there for a true breakdown unlike this video
@@Price30 can you help me out buddy? I main Geras and i dont think he can do 60% "for nothing". maybe with 2 assists, a meter, and a fatal blow he can? like uhhh a LOT of characters?
Lmao suz zero sucks dude, don't try to make excuses. Theres a reason I haven't seen no sub zero on ranked. And nope you did all hos combos there, none other more damaging
All of his moves are react-able, b3,4 is slow. Standing 3,4 is slow. Forward 2,2 is a good string by itself but you can’t open people up with it when the only options after using it are both lows in deadly vapor and ice slide. Ice ball is practically unusable in this game and ice clone can hit through on activation because of how fucking slow it is.
When the game first dropped and MK Tom Brady immediately started speaking negatively about the character, I kind of rolled my eyes bc I have not felt like playing with SZ is a struggle up to this point. However, I do see now that yes, he does seem to have to work harder to win than a lot of other characters, so in that regard I wouldn’t mind a buff just to get him on par with the rest of the cast.
![SUB-ZERO guide by [ Tom Brady ] | Mortal Kombat 1](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/myPTjELnc6o/mqdefault.jpg)
Let's Get This Video 2,000 Likes for Sub Zero!
Tons of people are misinterpreting what I said in this video. Being low tier is not the same as being terrible. Shao Kahn in MK11 was actually bad and players were still able to win tournaments with him. It's all about maximizing the tools your character has. My point in this video was that Sub Zero has options and abilities that many characters do not. Which is why his damage is below average. That said, I also mention in this video that Sub Zero should get a buff in some areas and that if he did get buffed all around that it would be fine too.
As for the "Pro players say he is bad" keep in mind they play at a different level than you and 90% of players. Against an average MK player you can absolutely win with Sub Zero and in fact you can win consistently. Many pros said Kollector was bad and Sonicfox bodied them with that exact character. They also said D'Vorah was terrible and once again they got destroyed by that same character. They say Nitara is bad and she has already reached top 8 in several tournaments and even won a couple. Possibly because Kameos can make any character good in this game. Sub Zero is definitely low tier, but he is nowhere near terrible. You can absolutely get wins with him just like any other low tier character. You can be hopeful for buffs without downplaying the character. Goro makes his overhead 100% safe and still gives you full combo on hit. Plus he lets you combo off the low.
I think they made Sareena into Bi-Han’s best Kameo for damage on purpose.
In Mythologies, Bi-Han’s compassion saved Sareena, and if the writers have a shred of writing talent, Sareena will save Bi-Han in the new era.
He needs to be buffed
@@maxrichards3881not true cyrax is a better kameo for him
He needs help
Sub zero can never be bad in my eyes 👀
Love how subzero gets nerfed for doing 50 percent 3 bars but you got raiden and baraka out here doing 50 percent 1 bar now he can barely get 30 percent mid screen with 1 bar 💀💀
And scorpion who gets 90% and geras 60%
Dawgs point is that sub zero has multiple easy ways to engage you to full combos compared to other characters without any meter being spent
Still, I do agree that sub zero needs a buff
@@DaniPino7020 Yeah getting 30% from a meterless combo is great imo. But I do think he needs a buff because it seems that spending meter to try to max out his damage feels like a waste.
@@Gamfluent Yeah, especially if you compare him to the likes of Baraka or Raiden which can delete your health bar with enough meter.
@@DaniPino7020except he doesn’t. He has the most react-able strings in the game. His 50/50s don’t work and his damage is mid at best. Even when he gets you in the corner his ice clone is so bad now that he can get poked through it unless the opponent is knocked down. Even then all you have to do to negate that is stand still and block for 1 second until it disappears.
I completely disagree. He needs to be buffed
And his freeze time needs to put back to the way it was in the beta.
Also i believe other youtubers proved he doesn’t actually have 50 50s.
Sub zero gets around thirty.
Most every other character gets 40 and raiden baraka get 50 geras 60 and scorpion 90%
Yes, he needs buffs which Underdawg addresses, but he also said that if you think Sub is bad, you’re playing him wrong which I agree with as well! No disrespect, but Sub has never really been a crazy high damage character. He’s more of a character that controls space. Yes, in Mkx he’s gotten high damage combos, but he has always been more about controlling space than crazy high damage combos!
@wolfhunterplays3954 crazy how we provide evidence as to why he's not good and then we're just met with "well maybe you're bad"
@@salttrap1740you want reasons why is good and how to make him great, Underdawg is providing some in the video!
None of the cast has "true" 50-50's in this game. Baraka's overhead is also reactable. But that's never how 50-50s actually work. They work because of the accumulation of the mental stack in fighting games. Players don't just alternate between two moves in a match. They also throw, cancel moves into specials, stop strings early, and throw in hail-mary fatal blows sometimes. Then there are situational scenarios that add to the mental stack, like low life, empty resources, what round it is, if you're behind, etc. All this adds to the mental stack, and then all of a sudden that 24-frame overhead comes and you aren't ready for it because you were worrying about a million other things and you get hit by it. That's how Sub-Zero can still catch people.
@@SeanWashPhoto baraka’s overhead has range and its animation is better than subzero’s b2
24 frames is pretty reactable for his overhead, idk why you're saying he has real 50/50s.
You can make it safe with the right cameo
Plus, if they block it can lead to a full combo so it's usually very risky, with out some kinda of set up from a kameo.
On paper it's reactable, but while playing online it's a 50/50 if the connection isn't good. Depending on who I'm up against I can either react to it 100% of the time, or never
Actually start up is 24 frames. On hit it’s a lil over 30. Plus it’s really hard to time the cameo for a block confirm. I would not say that’s a valid excuse
He is just terrible at the game
Don’t forget his ice clone and mid are also nerfed, his mid is 15 frames instead of 11-12
The ice clone was nerfed too harshly
Sorry Dog but you are clueless about Sub zero's problems. How come you didn't even mention that his ice clone has such a long cooldown and recovery that even blind man can punish it with armour moves. How about that EX clone uses 2 bars for absolutely no benefit whatsoever. How about the fact that all of his strings have gaps between them which you can easily flawless block or armour through. EVERY SINGLE MOVE IN EVERY SINGLE STRING. Try to play sub zero against players who know how to counter him and they will blow you up.
The "mix up” overhead is actually reactable, now compare sub to say Barakas actually 50/50 it’s abysmal.
Reactable until you’re forced to play a wifi sub in ranked
@@ernestorodriguez7211 not really
As a player who used to love MK on the first PlayStation and just recently bought a Ps5, Sub-Zero is incredible for beginners and someone getting back into the mechanics of this game.
Sub zero isn’t bad. He’s just infinitely worse than everyone else. Good lows and overhead, decent mixes and pressure. Extremely punishable and predictable character, and some of the worse specials in the game. It’s the fact you need to hit 3-4 combos to kill when every other character only needs 1-2 off any touch
Infinitely worse than everyone else is pushing it
That’s what I’ve been tryna tell my guys. Comp wise he barely stands a chance. I’m blown cause I rock wit sub zero I’m still gonna play him but it sucks to know that even he’s better than mk11 everyone else is capable of so much more
He doesn’t have the lowest damage lol. He’s not even bottom 5 damage
@@TrueUnderDawgGamingwho are the top 5 lowest DMG?
@@nobody4732 Kitana and Havik literally need Kameos to break 30% while Tanya needs meter to break 30% along with a couple other character. The fact that Sub Zero gets meterless 30% from overhead and low starters is great. If you add Sareena then he is easily getting 40% which is also good. He doesn’t have godly damage but he’s got more tools than most characters
He's not bad it's just everything he does can be done better by other characters and in most cases easier too, there's a reason one of the most beloved characters in the franchise has no more than 5 mains in top 1000
Tbf this sub zero isn’t loved much
@@Deathmare235bi haan is very much loved.
I’m one of those 5
@@Deathmare235 he’s the poster boy along with scorpion, he is very loved
@@calebstevens9446 everyone hates him
I think the funny thing is that subzero gets shafted but Raiden,raka,and other characters are doing ludicrous damage for less and gaining more
Yeah sub zero has 50/50s if you have the reaction time of an old man
Cope
I still think he needs a buff though just a bit to make him feel more rewarding
He needs a buff for sure. Have to work really hard to compete against most characters...his snowball is very slow and then when the slide is blocked you get hit with a 40-50% combo. Can get zoned out so easy so I feel like once you get a combo going it needs to hurt the opponent more for sure.
You can tell he's not played any games against real people with sub because ice ball is so slow that against projectiles it won't even come out in time or if it does they can block it he has some of worst specials and strings in the game plus you can get hit through ice clone
If y’all want an actual good breakdown of subzero watch Mk Tom Brady.
dude did 5 videos bitching about subzero. He is a scrub
aight ill check it out
Tom is bias bro you’ll never get any true as it relates to sub zero from him
@@kingscorpion6432 “I don’t agree and can’t claim to know more about the game than him therefore he’s biased”
@@matthewcrane5294 SMH if you don't see it u just naive bro
Let’s be honest .. subzero not being able to combo into his ice ball in this game like the previous entries before it is a CRIME
It’s not a 50/50 its absolutely reactable, his specials are below average, his damage is below average, his screen control is below average, his projectile below average, has poor conversions, and NEEDS kameo because he gets punished by nearly everything due to poor frame data. He’s easily one of the worse in the game, only saved from unplaybility by kameo’s like goro, or kano.
Reactable overhead. There’s no 50/50.
you can cancel it into the slide
The problem with his damage isn’t that it’s bad, it’s that it’s bad compared to everyone else. Scorpion has a meterless combo that deals more damage than any sub zero combo you did in this video. Along with that, you didn’t mention that sbubby can’t jail at all. You can armor through the 3rd, and even 2nd hit of all of his strings. And the overhead you mentioned is pretty slow. You’re not hitting that overhead on anyone unless their closing their eyes. Along with that the ice ball is so god damn useless. If your character has a projectile god forbid a fast one, you can use it on reaction and hit him before he can convert off of it. And the ice Klone is really not that good. It’s out for 1 second. So you’re only counter zoning for 1 second. And the worst part, that you couldn’t even hide in that video, is that he gets less damage for using meter. And you keep saying that sbubby isn’t a damage dealer, but in mkx, where you said it started that trend, he dealt 51% with full resources. In mk1 he gets 40% for using full resources. Meanwhile characters like scorpion, raiden, kenshi, and Baraka are getting 50% with 1 meter. If anything you’re trying your hardest to not mention what’s bad about the character. And you keep saying he has 50/50s but you also fail to mention that he only has 1 overhead not tied to a string. And it’s 24 frames. And his other overhead can be armored through, after the first hit, you won’t even get the overhead out. I don’t doubt that you’re not knowledgeable on this subject. But you’re failing to talk about the real problems with this character
also I believe If u turn frame data on the overhead on hit actually comes out to a little over 30 frames. Ppl are crazy for thinking he’s broke in beta. Maybe the dmg was too much but still. Not “broken”
@@Aoimusha nah for sure and over time I got used to sub and rarely lost to him. I think I meant more so the dmg he gets off of the mixups. Mind u that’s when he had mixups but then the change the frames and it’s no longer 50/50. I’ll be happy if he just gets his iceclone and frames back to normal. If they ever do fix him I’ll gladly take the dmg buff too but I don’t see them fixing him
Facts on all of this. Its not even just his damage. His basic neutral game is bad in general. All of his 3 hit strings are terrible and lead to nothing. They dont launch or bounce. Some of his move are also redundant. Example: His 2,1,2 string does the same thin as his 1,2,2. Its the same with string 4,4 and b, 3,4 and all of these strings lead to...nothing. No bounce...no launch...no combo extention. This version of sub was poorly designed from the very fundentals.
You can get 46% - 47% with Sonya. Goro isn't as good imo
@@DrillSgtMason3,4 leads to 30% metreless. Bad, fair, but don't lie
His Ice clone can be armored through by anything and with his recovery frames being so high they don't even have to guess, they can just see you throw it and react for a punish, and the enhanced version that costs 2 bars is still unsafe as most Kameos can punish it on reaction still. I think he needed a nerf from the beta but i think they went a bit overboard when you have characters who can spend one bar and a kameo for 50%. Not to mention they also slowed everything down, the overhead IS react-able, block low and react to the overhead
- Everyone else 250 dmg and fatal blow combo = 500 dmg..
- Subzero 250 dmg and fatal blow = 380 dmg...
Ok, here's the thing. Subzero is amazing however, you genuinely need to use every single thing in his arsenal to make him that good. However every single character is like 4 button hits to go to 50%. I notice this alot in MK 1, the harder to use characters have low damage compared to character that are easier to use and have high damage.. where's the balance..
I don't think he should have pre day one damage but jesus you can hit 290 dmg and then hit a fatal blow and he caps of at 380 damage. You telling me that is balanced when everyone else can caps at 500+ damage ? ... that makes no sense..his multiplier needs a buff because at this point its garbage. Or else the only other way to balance it is drop everyones multiplier so that damage outputs are similar..
Does that mean you cant use him ? Nah he is strong in the hands of player who understands and can execute him with perfection but that skill that NO ONE in this game requires to play therefore the outrage. I would make everyone like him, fine balance between skill and fun. Or buff him a little so you arent hitting a million buttons to simple put 300 damage
they must buff Sub-Zero ASAP
He doesn't have as much 50/50 as people keep pushing. He only has one overhead that can extend into a combo without the use of specific cameos or bars. That one overhead only works on scared opponents or opponents who can only block low. The majority of players you meet do not get hit by it. If you miss it, you can special out of it, but that requires you to absolutely know your opponent is going to block it because the window to special out of it is smaller than the flawless block window. Seriously, if the opponent blocks it, then it's too late to react and special out of. If you try to mix up low, the enemy can quickly block low or just armoring through the last hit. Literally had someone tea-bagging my last hit, going low too late and still getting the block off on multiple occasions. Other times, they just interrupt my last hit. Not to mention, all his attacks that end a combo string cannot combo into a special unless you use a cameo. 90% of the roster can combo into a special from any hit to get a free 300+ damage combo while Sub-zero can only deal like 70-90. So I'd argue Sub-zero has the bottom 3 50/50 game.
Ice clone only works against players who are running on jet-fuel and red bull. Most players are not getting hit by it. in fact, most players are punishing it.
His glacial dive kick is mid. Once you've seen it once, it's only working twice at best. The first for the kick and the second for the light jab after missing the kick which can still be punished.
His long-range game is weak asl. Ice slide is EXTREMELY predictable and is as equally punishable. You're better off slowly dashing forward unless you know your opponent likes throwing stuff or Kenshi when he pulls his sword out. His ice ball is slow asl. Most of the time, if the enemy is attacking long, you're getting hit and they're blocking by the time your ice ball is going across the screen.
It's not a 50/50 you can fuzzy block the overhead
you dont even play this game
your sub is great in training mode
try this vs a good player and come back saying the same
All you talked about was his combo damage. Not once did you mention his neutral game.
Most of sub zeros best strings, you can flat out armor thru. Which means no pressure. He doesn’t have good advancing moves which means you can out space him pretty easily. His “50/50” is react-able as hell. On top of that he’s mad punishable.
Combo damage is just one part of the puzzle.
Sub is trash tier.
Sub Zero still needs a buff 😅❄️
I picked up Liu Kang and was very confused on why his spinning kick isn't his best combo ender. But after some practice i found that the kick is often better when you don't want to use the metere but the dragon is better when you do. It's really fun to discover different ways to play characters in this game
The short flame teleport also has a unique property that allows you to jump immediately after you hit the EX version, I forgot if it has to be a punish but there’s unexplored territory in that area for me
@@jaidora yeah. It not only can be canceled into jump but you are also untochable when doing the ex which makes it a very good anti-air. It also can combo off of your F1,4. I like the combo because i then do air 2,1 into Sonya into air 1,2 into air fire ball. Combo looks good and does 30%. Maybe you can extend it if you do Sonya again or instead of jumping the second time just stay grounded but i didn't really feel the need to do more damage so far.
The problem I have is the armor gaps in pretty much all of his strings. 12, F12, F123, 212 all have gaps to armor though
He's also ignoring that opponents can punish him for doing ice klone seriously go watch mk Tom Brady to see all the ways to easily punish
@@julianmorgan79Everyone has a teleport?
"he's not bad just use goro" 😂
Bro, you completely forget that characters in this game on average have the potential to delete half of your health bar off of one combo alone. You’re right that 30% is good, but that’s only if you isolate that number. If you compare that number to the numbers of literally any other character, that’s horrendously low. In a game as broken and stupid as MK1, 30% from one combo is not good. It may have been good in the past, but now? That shit won’t fly
With sub zero my main yes he needs a buff. But with this character you play more mind games than usual. It's either your opponent calls it right or not and get punished. His pokes are pretty good so I normally follow it up with mix ups that I can cancel out of or commit. You have to be constantly unpredictable or your gonna get punished by the top tier characters. And be mindful with the ice clone while playing characters that can teleport because that move got too nerfed.
U pretty good w him? I’m trying to to find the max damage combos
The thing is, its the way he plays. Clones needs to be extended cuz thats his play style
Once someone has fought a sub zero 5 times his game plan is done
I play sub zero a decent amount and in competitive the first game I usually destroy, but after that I get predicted and punished lmao he needs more damage at least to make the combos worth
Exactly he’s way too predictable and gets punished heavy for trying to go for his bread and butters. The more people that play easier he will become for other people to block.
The overhead is 24 frames on start up… it’s barely a 50/50 because of how easy it is to react
Ok. Sub Zero isn't bad. It's just that every single other characters is better.
I can name 5 right now who are worse.
@@Duncle0 Please do.
@@nellothetiger8654 Tanya, Havik, Li Mei, Nitara, General Shao. Can name some more if you'd like.
@@Duncle0 Your very personal, subjective opinion is very interesting but no, you don't have to name more. lol
@@nellothetiger8654 Those 5 are typically at the very bottom of the best player's tier lists, so it's not a personal opinion.
Fun Fact, Diff's tier list has Sub in the top 10.
You can choose to take the low against sub and eat 23-25% MAX. Or you can choose to always block low and react to the overhead, which is super easy. Damage is nerfed to the ground. All of his ice combo extensions scale SUPER BAD. Ice slide is slow on startup, eats projectiles all the time, is super baitable, super punishable, is really slow travel speed (reactable at a distance) and can be punished by back jump almost 100% of the time unless slide itself is a punish. ice spike is punishable on hit, over head is unsafe, low gets no damage, ice clone is purely a counter poke/eat 1 projectile move. Ice ball can’t combo naturally. His projectile is not fullscreen. His strength is in counter zoning, (but he’s a mixup character) and his best move to get damage is a REACTIONARY ice clone. well guess what if they have a teleport (technically anyone can because of kameo) then good bye clone mindgames. Ex clone costs 2 bars and for what? It does nothing a well timed clone couldn’t do. He gets LESS damage for using meter in wayyyyy too many scenarios. His anti wake-up tech bags around 25% for 2 kameos and 2 bars. His mid is 15 frames(not that good) his pressure is lacking, he resorts to reactive ice clone, Ice ball spam, risking the overhead, or down one clone just to open up people… AS A MIX UP CHARACTER!! HE IS JUST BAD. Quit trying to downplay how bad he is. Tell the truth. He is soooo bad
Taking the low if the Sub is using Sonya as a kameo is an easy way to lose 35%.
Choosing to take the overhead instead is another easy 35% if he's using Sonya.
You're taking in the character by himself and not including the fact that his weaknesses can easily be solved by pairing him with a kameo. Scared of being unsafe? Use Cyrax/Goro. Want more damage? Use Sonya/Sareena. Want to have more Mix Up's? Use Frost.
He isn't a bad character, even in higher ranks, it just takes being good with neutral and knowing how to play the character and the characters your fighting against.
@@Duncle0you do know that the cameos you just listed require subzero to hit confirm right? Besides goro and cyrax that is
@@temp-td2ukyeah he’s just a ret@rd don’t mind him
You're on point, his OH is reactable af. Dunno what underdawg is smoking but I'd say sub is easily the worst character with all gaps in his strings and slow mid.
@@BeatingUr Pros would disagree.
they need to nerf the 50% 1 bar characters not buff sub zero
While yes his damage isn't exactly terrible, it is worse than majority of the other cast when they can get 40% for one bar and he barely hits 30% for the same meter. His damage is not the only bad part about him. Ice clone is supposed to be a "safe escape" move and it's not. Ice clone can easily be reacted to and punished. Even ex ice clone is still easily reactable and punishable and it costs 2 whole bars. Also sub physically cannot jail people. All of his strings have 2 different gaps that you can armour through and sub can do literally nothing to stop that. If he tries to bait it, he gives up his turn completely. He also does not have a true 50/50. The overhead is easily reactable even online because of how slow it is, and every single "mix" he has is unsafe. Sub Zero really needs buffs to bring him in line with the rest of the cast
The ice klone is guaranteed on jumpins
@@Tevron_ no matter when you do ice clone, there is a way to punish it
@@JokerAnjero When an opponent forward jumps, you can ice klone on reaction, then counter punish.
@@Tevron_ sure. But that doesn't change anything else I've said above
@@JokerAnjero He can get 400 - 415 damage with Sarena with no bar of meter. On top of that he has good footsies with his normals. Just throw out standing 2's as it safe, back 4's, move back and db2 klone charge for space control. 2,1 to whiff punish into bnb. I'm not having any problems with the character compared to shao.
You didnt even talk at all about the slow start up on all his moves. You just spent 8 mins talking about damage😂😂😂 this analysis is shallow as hell.
I mean, sure, he's got a 50/50, but one of those 50s is his back 2, which has 24 start-up frames, which any decent player is going to be able to counter with a standard 6-7 start-up frame standing attack string. Now, sure you can use kameos make it safe, but then you're just adding pressure to a fairly read-able launcher, which is good, but not great. Compare that with Scorpion's forward 4 launcher, which hits high, but only has 17 start-up frames, and is -6 on block, making it safe. I think we can be honest about Sub's shortcomings. If they can reduce his back 2's start-up frames to 19 or 20, I think he'd be in a much better position.
Now that ive had my time with the game at a casual level I wanted to come back to this as someone who's a Sub main, no, he isnt bad, it just seems like when I pick up other characters they are able to deal out more damage for less work, or are able to squeeze out more damage neutral rather than being in the corner. Sub Zero sometimes just doesnt quite have enough in so many situations, by sacrificing something that a character might not have that Sub has, Sub loses something else that may affect him in a worse way. Shao has damage, Smoke has mobility, Raiden has options, etc etc. For me though I think with Kameos he can be made better, and I also think that with the idea that Sub is a Jack-of-all-trades, I do truly dont feel pinned down with my kameo choice, whereas some characters its like cereal and milk. I think maybe, and this is as a Sub main, id like for his damage to be buffed, just ever so slightly, theres a middle ground from the beta and full release, other than that he's okay, and If it was a perfect world Id want ice clone to be buffed and his frozen damage scaling not to be so insane, (but the memes are really funny so idk). #buffsubzeropls
lets see what happens Season 3, because even if they dont touch him, this game is still so much fun, and no, Sub-Zero isnt bad.
All I really want is for his f1 mid to be slightly faster (15 frames is really annoying to work around, 11 or 12 would be better) and for Deadly Vapors scaling to be reduced so he has more reason to spend meter on combos.
He can get damage, he’s just not safe in literally anything…
I love you, man, but this take is just not it. you can start combo with f12, ex fd4, and then hit the overhead, and it makes it safer, sure. until it doesn't. you get poked after f12, because it's -7 on block. you get poked on the combo that is supposed to be safe. Cage's 21 starter is -1, his 11 is 3 on block, -5 with full 112, his 44 is 15 on block. there is no minus, I didn't miss anything.
I don't know what's the reason of many people saying "duh you just don't know how to play sub-zero" when breaking his moves down clearly shows that he has a disadvantage just on his combo starters alone. his ice ball takes 40 frames for cast alone, not talking about the speed of ice ball itself. if Sub-Zero casts anywhere else except the full screen, he's getting punished, and if he lands the ice ball from full screen, it thaws out before he can get to the opponent. his only way is ice slide, which knocks opponent down, defeating the purpose of ice ball. yeah, he can use EX and Goro, but 1 bar and 1 kameo just to start a combo?
sub zero doesnt have 50/50 his overhead is way too slow to be an actual 50/50, it is completely reactable, even online with 60ms ping. it is considerably slower than the AVERAGE human reaction time which is a 1/5 of a second or faster, and subzero overhead is 24 frames which is well over 1/3 of a second. maybe if youre in 150ping online you cant react but in tournament it will never open anyone up as a mixup because it isnt a mixup.
In my opinion, Sub Zero is the best Character in the game.
His Spinal tap and Ice ball ability spam can be super op if you time it right.
I will never see why people think he is "bad" maybe not the best, but I think saying he is bad is ridiculas.
Also, with Khameleon he is just very powerful.
He does not have 50/50's thats blatant misinformation
Playing sub zero is like a minimum wage job, you do alot for little reward
Yeah
Sub Zero is probably a herald of damage nerfs coming to the rest of the characters.
Sub-Zero is bottom one bro. Gaps all over the place, trash frames, reactable overhead, ice clone is punishable ON REACTION by 90% on the cast.
You keep saying “50/50”. This isn’t a 50/50. The overhead is damn near 30 frames. My grandma is reacting to that. Sub-Zero has bad neutral, bad frames, bad combo damage, no staggers, and no mix ups. Trash character.
Disagree he needs to be buffed his output is significantly different when his counterparts. Ice Klone duration. I think 3 of his strings have gas. His mid got out to 15 instead of 12, probably more. He needs a buff BAD
Sub-Zero is definitely way worse than he was. The damage nerf, the mid nerf and the ice klone nerf were completely unnecessary in my opinion
Right, lets just forget to mention that sub's strings all have gaps, iceball is 40 frame startup so lol gl using that, you can react to ice clone cancel with any armor..etc etc
There is a laundry list of shit that has to be fixed with Sub Zero, let us not just pretend that he is particularly out of this world. The players are not asking for him to be at the level of Jhonny or Liu Kang, but the least they could do is fix his recently broken ice clones which have lost the ability to juggle, his ice ball has to get buffed for a faster start up, and his over-all mobility speed needs to be increased. None of these are unrealistic things to ask.
his fireball does not need a buff, its slow start up bc it jails for a full combo. sub being "slow" is a trade off for how easy it is for him to get dmg from his kit
I only think his overhead is slow af, it’s very easy to react to
It’s not just his damage Underdawg, it’s also his mid which got nerfed 3-4 frames and his ice clone is so much worse it’s ridiculous.
The Reason why people are mad is because , almost every character can do 40 + damage . Why can Raiden and not Sub Zero ? and its true , but still I main Sub Zero and he is pretty darn good ;)
mk games are always unbalanced , and if ur a good player you can still win with the worst character
@bill5479 who wants to put more effort for what other people get with less
@@imasavage95perfectly put
@@imasavage95 you're a very simple person aren't you sir
It's not that Sub-Zero is bad, it's that the really good characters in this game are fucked up lol
The Sub-Zero nerfs really make me wonder what NRS wants with this game though. If they want lower damage, why didn't they nerf all the other damage? I don't really get it lol
I am okay with low damage and wall carry and the 50/50 too but he definitely could a few better frames like scorpion d1 plus 5 on block. How ever sub zero is punishable if he uses ice clone and the B2 is to reactable they should make it a tiny bit faster for make the 50/50 working like a 50/50 .
As someone who mains sub-Zero, Sub-Zero fucking sucks, if you’re opponent knows how to block it’s almost impossible to get combos, his attacks are so slow that you’re pretty much forced to use only pokes & throws & if you have a bad connection those don’t even work a lot of the time.
He’s literally the most unsafe character & even if you master him you have to put in way more effort than your opponent to win.
Not mentioned:
his basic strings all have gaps that can be mashed through
his advancing mid is painfully slow
his iceball is basically pointless
his clone is now very delayed.
And he has low damage
Indeed this mf and all subzero haters too stubborn to accept hes bottom tier at this game
As a sub zero main, he’s pretty good if you know how to use him. The damage is good but horrible compared to a good chunk of the roster. Last night, I was labbing and did a 22 hit combo then hit a fatal blow and it did just as much damage as a baraka meterless, no fb combo. And almost none of the top people use him, he’s used more as a kameo than a fighter. There are fighters who do everything better than he does, and that’s why he needs a buff, bell I don’t even want him to go back to beta, but just enough for him to be actually “viable”.
Bro this character literally get carried by a good kameo and us . He is crap . But I love the way how good we are cuz we clapping top tier chars with skill and read 😂
Sorry but this is one of the worst breakdowns watch people who main this character saying his 50/50 is reactable and his ice clone is punishable on reaction and his string have gaps in them, don’t reply by saying no his 50/50 is un reactable give us proof, it is reactable under 120ms
No one's downplaying sub zero. Sub has to work harder for his gameplan than any other character in the game and that is a fact.
He is playing a completely different game than everyone else is. Every single other character feels like their full potential has been unleashed.
Even other perceived low tier characters like nitara and kitana can be absolutely cracked but sub's ceiling under perfect conditions and an ok to bad opponent is still mid at best.
He NEEDS a buff. He feels like he is chained while every other character has been let loose entirely.
He is still a good character on paper but this is mk1. Paper doesn't matter.
Not saying sub has to be god tier either but the devs need to buff him. Creators are supposed to be pushing for the buff and granted most are, but i can see a vid like this stopping a developer or maybe making them more cautious about buffing sub and that doesn't help.
Because the devs weren't "cautious" when designing characters like raiden or johnny or kenshi or baraka or mileena so why should they be for sub or any other character besides the "famous five".
Ideally i think every sub main would love to see that turn into the "sinister six" with sub being the sixth member. But the buffs do not have to go that far.
Btw i am fairly neutral in this, my favorite mk character is sub, but i am maining reiko and liu and even if they buff sub, i doubt that will change who i main. So no bias here.
literally mk tom brady proved he had no 50/50s 💀
That overhead is very react able unless it’s laggy idk what you’re on about w this 50/50 nonsense
Dude watch the video before you criticize. That overhead is unsafe yes, but you clearly missed that part where Goro can help you that!
@@wolfhunterplays3954 Read a comment before you reply to it, i didn’t say anything about it being unsafe i said it’s reactable
@@thegamerword.9739you did say it’s reactable which is very true, but you also said “I don’t know what you’re on about with this 50/50 nonsense”. That’s where Goro comes in. He can help with that, Frost can too. In my opinion, I think Goro’s better though, because Frost can’t make that overhead plus! Also, I literally just made a Raiden rage quit with that combo, so thank you TrueUnderdawg!!!
@@wolfhunterplays3954I think he means as far as combo starters go the skull is the only over head he's got and if you pop Goro you're not getting that combo.
@@infamous-riv3ra36by itself, yes it is easily reactable and unsafe. As far as Goro goes, you can actually still get a combo on hit, a small one in comparison to the full thing, but a combo nonetheless.
This needed to be said, He is not the strongest character but deff not bottom 5 and anyone wanna prove otherwise please fight me😂🚶🏽♂️
He def needs help in the damage scaling department for sure... That EX Ground freeze got hit so hard to the point where it is not even worth it to really spend the bar on sadly... I understand nerfing the scaling if you use the move more than once, but what they did there is a bit absurd hahaha!
Great video, regardless of what people are saying I have always played Sub Zero and I love him to death so I am willing to do my best to make him work, I will have to try that Goro assist!
Use Sonya, ground freeze is a worthwhile combo extender. Not an opener, but you can get 46% easily enough on him. He just is slow, snail pace slow
Sub-Zero's damage is not a problem. From what I have seen, Sub-Zero's real issues are his combos in theory are good for meterless damage but they are not good in practice. They rely heavily on the opponent making a mistake rather than opening them up. Also his clone is some other weird shit on its own. I get that it is unsafe but the EX version takes two bars and is arguably more unsafe than his normal version. I am baffled as to why it is so costly when it doesn't do anything. Havik has a move that takes two bars and it GUARANTEES a combo because the move after it is unblockable and unavoidable. Its easy to see why its two bars.
Sub-Zero's on the other hand does... what exactly? Exactly what is the EX ice clone supposed to do that the normal can't? Anti air?
Not true at all he’s a mix up character 50/50 character so if you can’t open up your opponent you’re just bad
@@Lospollos24 he is NOT. A 50/50 character. His frame data for the overhead and low are so wildly different that you can literally just block low and react to the overhead. This isn't MK11 where he actually did have one. This Sub has way to big of a frame gap to have that be called a 50/50.
@@theprinceofthebadlands5204 ALL overheads like that we’re meant to be slower than lows your point? I’ve faced good subzero players and it’s not as react-able as you think it is you’re just bad
@@theprinceofthebadlands5204 so don’t trust the UA-camrs trust a random clown in the UA-cam section
@@Lospollos24 if that's your logic you can look at MK Tom Brady, who has mained Subzero competently for decades, talk about how this is not a true 50/50. I'll trust an actual competitive player over Underdawg on a character he has used since the 2000s.
A true 50/50 is when there is such a small frame gap between the two attacks, you literally have to guess which attack is coming out. Subzeros "50/50' in this game has a frame gap of 12 frames. His over head takes 24 frames to come out while his low is 12. With a gap that large, you can just reliably fuzzy guard the 50/50.
Brady is in his 40s and can react to this everytime. Certainly younger people can to.
i shouldn't be shackled by my cameo
Sub is bottom tier but hes also B tier
I think he'd be fine in a game where baraka and Raiden aren't walking around. Raiden has a safe 50/50 for 50 percent. Sub has a unsafe 50/50 for 32 maybe. I guess what I'm saying is nerf Raiden
Ya I just hit grand master and I will say his 50/50 is not real you can react. His clone if your fast enough can be punished with cameo or teleport. If they don’t make the overhead safe with cameo they are dead most characters I have tried get at least 42% off 1 bar. He just feels like a free win when I face him.
I think they should buff his damage a bit more. How awesome would it be for beta damage but im willing to meet in the middle.
I completely disagree with your assessment.
Okay
Get to demi god with sub zero.. would make for a good video 😂😂
They nerf Sub-Zero strait into the ground no wonder he turned on Scorpion in the story mode
Is the OH not reactable? Because if it is.. than it's not a 50/50 which is the crux of his whole argument.
As a Bi-Han main, I do have to work quite a bit to win matches. I think a damage buff would literally solve everything wrong with him (because it’s JUST his damage that’s the problem)
Agree
Its not just his damage. His normals strings are terrible and lead to nothing and are mostly unsafe. Also, his ONE deffensive tool to keep him safe(the clone)barely functions as it should. Andy move can armor through and the recovery from using it is absurd...
It’s not a mixup if it’s seeable lol. That’s not a guess. Also every major useful string of his has a gap. You may fuck up wi-fi warriors but that’s not working in any offline tournament against half decent players. Sub isn’t trash but he’s definitely gimped.
Agreed most people in here are the wifi warriors so he’s not bad by those standards. Attending a tournament would definitely recommend having a 2nd pocket character to be safe
This video is whack bro. Sure, Subzero has a few options but literally every other character can do what he does but better/safer with more damage.
Tom Brady did a true breakdown on why this character struggles. He goes into gaps and unsafe strings and what can you do to improve him. Is he horrible? Go there for a true breakdown unlike this video
This character is still just tragic geras get 60% for nothing
how ?
@@bil5479 look up geras 60% combo that’s how
So does sub dude
58% 1 bar with sub using cyrax
@@Price30 can you help me out buddy? I main Geras and i dont think he can do 60% "for nothing". maybe with 2 assists, a meter, and a fatal blow he can? like uhhh a LOT of characters?
the gaslighting is crazy. More than half the cast gets the same thing but way more damage(35-40%). Without having to use goro
I hear you, but ALL the pros have him at the bottom of the tier list for a reason💁🏾♂️
Give subzero more damage.
Raiden and Kenshi and Baraka makes this guy look bad in the damage department lol.
do you even play this game? try subzero online ft5 vs good players and then come back and make this video again
No wonder he was tempted by Shang Tsung. The guy is done dirty is this timeline.
I saw someone start finding combos with Sub-Zero's air ground pound and it does crazy damage like there is no scaling on that move
Weather he gets buffed or not he’s the only dude I’m using 😂
Lmao suz zero sucks dude, don't try to make excuses. Theres a reason I haven't seen no sub zero on ranked. And nope you did all hos combos there, none other more damaging
This is why you need to research more before making a video. When no other youtuber agrees with you, take the hint.
Sorry, but b2 is slow AF so it's not a real 50/50.
All of his moves are react-able, b3,4 is slow. Standing 3,4 is slow. Forward 2,2 is a good string by itself but you can’t open people up with it when the only options after using it are both lows in deadly vapor and ice slide. Ice ball is practically unusable in this game and ice clone can hit through on activation because of how fucking slow it is.
@@temp-td2uk Yeah, Sub has so many problems it's not even funny. Hope they'll fix him in the future.
Underdog was definitely high making this video
He doesn’t need a damage buff because he’ll still be bad. He needs his frame data fixed.
he’s so fun in this game but i wish he had more ways to open up the enemy and strings were faster but he has sauce
As a sub main I can agree Sub live and dies by his 50/50s and you definitely need a cameo to make it safe. Thanks for the Goro advice
When the game first dropped and MK Tom Brady immediately started speaking negatively about the character, I kind of rolled my eyes bc I have not felt like playing with SZ is a struggle up to this point. However, I do see now that yes, he does seem to have to work harder to win than a lot of other characters, so in that regard I wouldn’t mind a buff just to get him on par with the rest of the cast.
Titan Shang Tsung should have disguised himself as Titan Kitana. That way you could have Shang Tsung and Liu Kang both fooled.
But Sub-Zero still is one of if not worst characters in the game, his damage scaling is terrible.
Not to mention, some projectiles go through his ice klones.
And ice ball is so slow it’s not even really worth using
@cargopilotguy305 Yeah, even if it's hits it scales, and you're usually too far to get a combo off.