@@SpeakLifeMedia Hi. It’s me, Steve B. Thank you for your kind comment. I’m just going through some of these comments now. It’s very eye-opening to read the responses to our discussion. It’s heartening to encounter open minded people here. (it almost never happened before Ravi died.) Sadly, there is still a lot of stupidity and people thinking that “judge not” gives them permission to go through with one massive shoulder shrug.
Loyalty to the tribe, not the truth. We should always be transparent, but we aren’t. This interview should cause all of us to be looking inward to our heart and making sure we aren’t deceiving ourselves and others.
As a follower of Christ, I love Steve’s authenticity and speaking of his doubts, and I love the pastor’s questions and interview style. We need to give space to people in their seeking process. There are many many reasons people turn away from the faith, and their stories deserve to be heard
These videos you're doing, Glen, are so important. And I thank Steve for holding Christians accountable to our proclaimed ideals. The findings on Ravi really shook me as a Christian who used to admire him greatly. I feel completely duped by Zacharias. I thought he was someone who walked the walk. Boy, what a smackdown the truth was. And the behavior of those who tried to conceal and protect his "legacy" disgusted and enraged me further. This whole scandal has completely disheartened me. I know we are all sinners and no man is above it, but damn. People were praying for you, Ravi, and you were lying to everyone, including your family. I can't even imagine what they're going through, unless they still deny the truth. Anyway, I've given up on looking up to Christian speakers and so-called "models and exemplars." It reminds me to just keep my eyes on Jesus from here on out. Message received, loud and clear.
@The History Shelf, Ravi's daughter has issued statements regarding forward progress, and she and the family are amazing in their acknowledgement and integrity following the terrible behaviour of her father. ❤️
I am still disturbed at what has happened. While actions like this can easily make people less trusting of Christians (especially from an atheist's perspective). There is a sad reality that atheists don't realize. Superficially, it looks like Christians are hypocrites who don't always practice what they preach. In actuality, Satan attacks/tempts Christians the most as his hatred is strongest toward this group of people. He will not go after those who don't follow God as much as those who do. Its actually frightening how big the cross heirs are for Christian leaders in positions like these.
Very insightful and instructive discussion. Steve Baughman fell into place as a natural vessel, and a commendable and notable mouthpiece to oversee the tragedy of Ravi Zacharias. I hope that Baughman who gave up on Christianity will find that the excellency of Christ has not given up on him.
Thank you for this thoughtful, respectful interview. I am a devout Christian, and I was raised by devout Christians who placed great importance on critical thinking. We were taught to never take anyone at face value, or at least, not at what they say about themselves. There are plenty of fakes and fakirs in all faiths, whether theists or atheists. We were taught to explore and research, and I do it to this very day. Read a report quoting a Harvard medical study? Must be true? No, I’m going to find the Harvard report and read it for myself. Even when it is something I agree with, I still want to see for myself. I saw Ravi speak, and he was a charming, charismatic speaker. But at the end of one talk, I remember thinking “Wow! He really pussyfooted around the elephant in the room! He wasn’t decisive and forceful enough. He gave a very soft, diluted Gospel message!” Was he afraid if he was too didactic, his dark shadows would be exposed? Likely. Many of Ravi’s talks were great, and I do not doubt many came to seek or follow Christ because of hearing him. What is heartbreaking to me, at least, is that he lied about his credentials, his marriage vows, and worst of all, he lied to himself before God. His poor wife, who early in his career, stuck at home with small kids, said how isolated and diminished she felt while Ravi was becoming the global star. He not only betrayed her trust and his marriage contract, he belittled and dishonored and dismissed her as less than deserving as he pursued his own desires.
You had wonderful parents! What a blessing! It took me until age 42, with a neglectful childhood and a 14 yr marriage to a "Christian" abuser, then getting free that I've finally landed in a place where I question everything & find out for myself, instead of being spoon fed by media or pastors/faith leaders 😊
Grace of Christ remains . May Holy Spirit help your humble heart to take decisions to live the rest of life understanding the redeeming power . May you meet a Bible centered fellowship
@@SuperAbebaby I am attending a great Bible-teaching/studying church, with staff that is very transparent. If there is any area in a church that is off limits to its members, steer clear!
*"Raised by devout Christians who placed great importance on critical thinking"* That's hilarious! Of course, if you or your parents were actually serious about critical thinking you wouldn't be Christians! You folks say the darndest things! 🙄
You spoke well. I used to watch Ravi but I did not put my faith to Ravi but my faith is in Jesus Christ alone. I pray for this guy to find Christ Again because time is short.
As a Christian, I am grateful for you, Steve, for being more honest about your athiest background than many Christians. I was a Zacharias follower and tried to learn from him, though his philosophical-type way of teaching oftentimes was very hard for me to understand. I pray for his wife and family, as I can't imagine what they must be going through. Humans, faithful or not, have a LOT to learn.
You should be grateful for what Christ did for you… Steve is still an atheist . As a Christian, you should kneel and pray for apologists who fight for Christ our a Lord . How many times have you prayed for Ravi Z ? Or people like Ravi ? We fail to pray to people who profess the gospel and when they fall into sin we just throw stones at them holding hands with atheists ? As Christians we should treat this carefully. Very carefully…. I believe: Ravi Z was indeed a man of God , gifted with knowledge but he lacked in fundamental Bible reading and personal prayer . He fell into sinful ways. But God is always faithful . He allowed the world to expose his life , probably to make Ravi repent . I really wish Ravi repented in his death bed… Although Ravi’s entire work is gone , his soul would have been saved (I really wish) … But , those who expose the sins of others , will have their own exposed in the same way on judgement day . In a way , I feel happy for what happened with Ravi , for God didn’t leave him to die while he was still living in sinfulness….
This was the most marvelous interview. The word celebrity was used so aptly. I am an older Jewish woman who is profoundly grateful for having been led to a profession of faith in 1971 & for the subsequent 5 decades of trying (imperfectly) to follow daily counsel & leadership of the Holy Spirit. Though one of my undergraduate majors was Philosophy, my willingness to make a profession of faith was totally devoid of emotion; I knew only that having ME on the throne wasn't working. (Now I probably profit from Ligonier Ministries studies and Precept studies because of having been a Philosophy major). Today in the US in Christendom one sees clusters of people sometimes following various Christian "celebrities" (both male & female) in a way that seems to be a troubling form of hero worship. It is ironic as we are urged to be Bereans. It also may correlate with being a consumer rather than a mindset of servant. Mr. Baughman, selfishly I hope you come on board one day. You are so winsome, vulnerable, likeable, logical --it would so bless the body of Christ to have you amongst us. I am CURRENTLY reading your book about RZ. It is so fair, judicial & temperate you are the cause of my loss of sleep this week :) Sorry if name icon comes up 2x. Computer glitch we don't know how to fix.
@@lucaswilhelmmeyer6943 Not sure what that reply is supposed to indicate, but I do know the difference between neutrality and impartiality. While I am not neutral about my own morals, I do try ( not always successfully ) to apply them in an impartial way. This distinction , for me anyway, has come mostly thru lived experience. Learning the law probably gives lawyers a leg up on making these distinctions. After all, their livelihood depends on it. Mr. Baughman , in this case, seems to recognize how " bad faith" cuts across many ethical borders. So, I think Christians have something to gain by listening to him. I also like the banjo.
@@malpais776 he does kill on the banjo - and he did Christendom a great service in persevering through the Zacharias reporting. This might’ve stayed in the dark.
So someone who is an unbeliever is right and balanced ? he is just the opposite to that , he does not know the things of God and is in need of salvation, if he does not get saved there will be avert hot place awaiting for him when he passes on , with the rest od unbelievers ! .
Thank you for uncovering the truth. Yes, we deny to protect the image of these men. This is why we should never put man on a pedestal, they always come crashing down. A burned one, learned one.
Yes Salvation is all of God and Nothing of man , For we are saved by Grace alone , through Faith alone , in Jesus Christ Alone , and ALL to the GLORY OF GOD ALONE ! .
I was a young Christian when I discovered that those outside the tribe often had a sharper eye out for the wolves than the sheep could accept. I like that we have Steve's sharp eyes on the Church's "six."
@@joannegriffin You make an astonishing claim. It shows how indoctrinated you are, because you use a common Christian phrase about "good news," and talk of a "god" who "loves" people. This is all what you've been taught, and you've fallen for it. Indoctrination is not easy to overcome, particularly when it is designed to appeal to your emotions, and is something you *WISH* to believe. Most folks who do grow out of it are amazed to understand how naïve they were to have actually believed there was a magical invisible father figure who loved them and communicated via some kind of telepathy so that the "experience" was private, and could not be objectively confirmed. They get angry when they realize they've fallen for an ancient myth. I hope you grow out of it, and come to prefer reality over comforting fiction. You will be a wiser and more mature adult when you do!
@@chikkipop The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. You have not the gift of persuasion to make one consider your tired tropes, nor to wager what is in hand for the pittance of your penseés.
@@joannegriffin What an absurd quote! Anyone can claim they've had an "experience" but that doesn't mean a "god" exists or that voodoo is real or any of countless other superstitions. And "tired tropes"? Utter nonsense. My points are sound and you would do well to consider them. The childish covering of your ears at the sound of reason is typical of the insecure believer. Grow up and face reality like an adult.
I'm so sorry to Steve Baughman for bad behavior from Christian's. I never heard any rumblings about Ravi until his death. I am frequently naive. I'm praying for my ignorance. May God give me wisdom. It only leads me back to my savior! All men are sinners and Christ my only savior.
*"I am frequently naive."* Followed by a perfect example: *"I'm praying for my ignorance. May God give me wisdom. It only leads me back to my savior! All men are sinners and Christ my only savior."* How interesting; you know you're naïve. You just have no idea *HOW* naïve! ;-)
Don't put all of us Christians in the same box Love , we are all born sinners , for when Adam disobeyed Almighty God in the garden We All inherited his fallen nature , and thats why we need a Saviour , Jesus Christ was our official sacrifice for All of our sins even before we were born , in fact BEFORE THE WORLD WAS MADE we were Chosen of God the Father in Jesus Christ , all of our sins were forgiven when He Jesus Christ died upon the cross, before many of us were even born , we were just brought into the knowledge of that salvation at our appointed time . EPH. 1 ; 3 - 7, once you see it things will Never be the same again , but before reading you must ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to see , If you do He will ., PS . Once you see it you will see it all over the Scriptures .PS that does not mean you can keep on sinning , if you do it will just show that you were never one of Gods Chosen . Cheers and God Bless !.
This man is a prophet preaching from the wilderness to us about the sanctity of truth. It's a lesson we need to learn. Thank you glen for arranging these interviews.
So interesting he grew up in Malaysia.. so did I... and am surprised he is not a Christian, I felt a great connection to him in his videos.. for me I love with Jesus, talk to him and have seen the miraculous.. I Love this guy’s manner and honesty. Being cynical about people is what Jesus was too.. he said he put his faith in no man.
Hearing this stuff about Ravi for the first time today, I am surprised at how much it is affecting me. I didn't even follow him closely but I liked the way he taught & I learned a lot from Ravi. I'm very disappointed but my hope is in Jesus, the only Man who never sinned. What hurts my heart almost as much is this man's denial of Christianity. Don't look to man, they will ALWAYS let you down. But please take this from a Senior old woman....run back to God. He knows you best & loves you best! ❤
Steve has persevered under withering criticism and shunning from the Christian community. We do Christ no service with our behaviors. Best we can do is pray for Steve.
*"If your faith depended on Ravi, a mere mortal, then sorry, you where never a Christian."* How silly. A confident-sounding statement from someone so gullible as to not understand he depends upon "mere mortals" himself, without whom he would not have come to the "faith" these mortals invented. No one should have such faith.
@@chikkipop You have literally zero idea what you’re talking about. We follow Jesus who is no mere mortal. Even our scriptures weren’t written and preserved by mere mortals, but inspired and preserved by the Holy Spirit of God Himself. So… Your pseudo-intellectual comment doesn’t make any sense. If you don’t understand what Christians actually believe you’re just beating a straw man.
@@alexanderhanksx *"You have literally zero idea what you’re talking about."* I just *LOVE* when people say that, and then proceed to prove that I *DO* know whereof I speak! Let's take a look, shall we Chris?: *"We follow Jesus who is no mere mortal."* Oh. Well then, I guess that settles it. ;-) You "follow" a person who may have existed centuries ago. There was a guy named Ralph who lived back in the 1800s; do you "follow" him? I don't "follow" anyone, so I'm not sure what it entails. Do you wear little trinkets around your neck with an image of the guy you "follow" nailed to a medieval torture device? ;-) And this guy was no "mere mortal"??! Wow. How did you learn this? I'm way too "mere" to have such astonishing "knowledge." ;-) *"Even our scriptures weren’t written and preserved by mere mortals, but inspired and preserved by the Holy Spirit of God Himself"* Your "scriptures"! Wow. And something called a "Holy Spirit"?! And no less than a "God *HIMSELF?!* Wow. You just cannot overstate how gullible the believer is. Make a comment criticizing the naivete of such beliefs, and someone jumps in to clarify what they believe, which is *PRECISELY* what I was saying! Indoctrinate people when they're too young to reason, and this is what you get: adults with imaginary father figures to "follow."
Just now seeing this video, two years later and very much appreciate this man's continued efforts to expose the sickness that sometimes pervades Christianity. I especially Steve's honest insight into humanity's interaction within its own community.
What an interview!!! I was looking for it! Excellent! and Thanks for doing the interview dear brother. A starking proof how the Mighty Creator uses even an atheist to expose the enemies of Truth masquerading. I still feel Steve Baughman is not an atheist, he feels he is but he is not. He is aligned to The Truth! He is little bit confused because of the utter confusion and chaos by so called outer organisations. May Beloved Father gives him direct revelation, that is my earnest prayer as he did with me in India with no church and religious organisation intervention ! And I am still going on without any outer organisations but definitely in fellowship with Him, His Beloved Son Yeshua and His Everlasting Ruach!
This is an amazing interview for its honesty and intellectual ideas that the average person can comprehend. Thank you! I haven’t found anything that resonates so deeply with me for several years.
It's better to be honest about not believing, because when you do believe nobody can take it away. I pray that in time God will show Himself to you, and His grace will sweep away any and all doubt.
The problem always in Churches that the leader is unquestionable! He is always right that is the attitudes! I came from a Catholic Church god had done wonders in my life! I the beginning the Church I was involved was very genuine! There were all the gifts of the holy spirit. I too married a Hindu convert It is better to marry Hindu convert with Hindu convert rather than Christian convert with a hindu convert! Now people are doing this way! I It is difficult to open one's heart in public There are many victims ! West it is ope everything but eastern culture woman suffer silently ! Steve, you born in Chritian or missionary family does t mean anything! Why atheist there because there is true god! There are many Christian s come to India many reasons Some truly for Christ some are for personal interest!
Instead of wasting time soul-searching, spend some time perusing religious texts of the Indian subcontinent. SANATAN DHARMA is the ONLY true philosophy. Christianity spread across the world by aggression, bloodshed and deceit.
And if you *really* want to learn a lesson, you can start by not being so gullible as to believe ancient myths about unseen supernatural father figures. Frauds like Ravi make a good career out of the gullibility of people.
It was very refreshing to see a discussion which took, head on, a key issue which other videos on Zacharias carefully tip-toe around: how much did RZIM personnel know about what was going on; when did they know it; and why were they so very slow in doing anything about it? It certainly looks as if they thought that protecting their jobs and careers was more important than protecting Zacharias’s victims.
"Religion" is the problem. Steve is a "Truther" and sees the Big picture. Many believers have left the church due to the "broken church" and the "religious spirit.Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, knowing Father, Son and The Holy Spirit and studying the Bible for oneself works. Steve knows so much and he has heart! God Bless. So sorry about Ravi Z.
I do too - I feel he's my soul brother! If someone says that I can't have a soul brother who's not a Christian ... then I think they've lost sight of the beatitudes (and most of Matthew's Gospel)
Fascinating discussion. Ravi Zacharias has put on display just how devastating sin is. His name, videos, books and memory should be eradicated from view for the sake of his victims. He had a wife and family, I have no idea what to recommend regarding them.
I know I hope he repent at the end of his life for his wealth i truly pray 🙏 he did 🙏 I also hope and pray for his family 👪 that the lord give them courage and strength to go on with life
Thank you Steve... You mentioned thay you prayed that God will let Himself reveal to you ... He heard it and He will as He promised.. I am sure that He used your skepticism and honesty to expose this issue among Christian leaders and churches..
I’m 66 years old, soon to be 67. At the age of 7 I realised that I was a sinner and that Jesus died for my sake and that by faith I could have Him live within me, through His spirit. I couldn’t have put it in exactly those words at that time, but according to the Bible, I believed on Him, as per John 3:16. I have doubted my own position before God many times in the intervening years, but I have never doubted the existence of God. Ever. It’s not a matter of BELIEVING God exists and that the Bible is true, I KNOW these things. As surely that I KNOW that gravity keeps me from flying off the ground. What I have learned though, through many hard lessons, is that I cannot rely on man. The thing that strikes me as I listen to this conversation is that the Bible repeatedly tells us that to put our trust in any man is a pointless and even dangerous exercise. I have been aware of, thorugh one means or another, MANY church leaders whose stories are clones of Ravi’s, in one way or another, or to greater or lesser degrees. I have learned that the ONLY man I can trust implicitly, is Jesus Christ. As Glen pointed out, this has been the case throughout the history recorded in the scriptures, from the very beginning, right through to the last book of the Bible. I’m frankly bemused by the number of professing Christians who don’t read their Bibles, don’t know what the Bible catually says about a great many things, and worst of all, will try to explain away why they shouldn’t bother to do either of those things. I agree with Steve when he says that most people (and Christians are among the worst at this!) don’t WANT to wrestle with uncomfortable truths. They want someone esle to do the heavy lifting when it comes to thinkiong things through, in spite of the fact that the Bible is replete with admonitions to do exactly the opposite to what they want. None of this should be a surprise to anyone who reads their Bible for themselves, because Jesus TOLD us that what I would call organised Christianity would become ‘top heavy’ and be corrupted. This began very sson after His death and resurrection, within the lifetimes of His followers such as John and His brither Jude, as well as Paul. I have read with horror the teachings of men whom the ‘authorities’ in ‘The Church’ revere and hang their theologies on. To think that men such as Origen of Alexandria (c. 185 to c. 253) were teaching the vilest things about Jews, after Paul’s very clear and stern warnings NOT to do so in Romans, shows just how corrupted the teachings of so-called learned men became in so short a time. Augustine is revered by both Catholic and Protestant thologians and his teachings are an appalling perversion of the scriptures, but hey, he’s one of the ‘Church Fathers’, so we whould make our reading of scripture line up with his. Ravi was definitely not the first and he has some real winners in his company. Martin Luther started well with the 95 Theses, which he nailed to the door in Wittenberg, but in later life, he became embittered by hi failure to win over any Jeiwsh converts and began to write essays and sermons which the Nazis republished with delight, as they called for such persecutions of the Jews, that it’s hard to read them and not think that they were perhaps the work of Josef Goebbels instead. Luther was not the only ‘Christian’ to call for persecution of Jews, but it’s sadly ironic that earlier in his life, he had bitterly cristicised the Vatican for its own persecutions of Jewish people. The writings of men who are revered as great men of God and studied ad infinitum by theological scholars the world over, make the Nazis look very tame indeed if one has the courage to actually read them and consider the depths of vitriolic hatred that motivated them. I find it not at all surprising that there are any number of theological luminaries today who claim to speak on behalf of Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew from the Tribe of Judah, a descendant of David, and yet preach that the Jews deserved the Holocaust, and have no right to the land of Israel today and should just take their lumps from the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah. Then we have the Televangelists and hucksters of the Word of Faith movement that I had the misfortune to experience from the inside during mny teens. That’s a whole other story, but it was precisely because of the many RZ type scandals that beset that cult, that I began to question literally EVERYTHING a few decades ago. I did what most people in such a position do and started by trying to find OTHER men who taught quite different doctrines in a vaiun attempt to find the truth, but what I found was more of the same, just in different clothes and using different aftershave. It wasn’t until I just began reading the Bible for myself and seeking to know the truth, that I made any kind of headway in discerning it. Which is again, what the Bible says that we should do. John wrote in his first Epistle that we have no need that ANY man teach us (1 John 2:27) and in those texts that urge us to search the scriptures to test everything, there’s an implicit expectance that we are capable of learning from the scriptures DIRECTLY, without the need of these learned men, who are just like the Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus’ day. His words to them ring down through the ages to absolutely condemn those who use the scriptures for their own ends and lead others astray (Matthew 23, especially, verse 15) and as I said, Jesus said in parables that this would get worse and worse. He also warned the disciples on the Mt of Olives that this would be the case in what is known as the Olivet Discourse. Steve mentioned fulfilled prophecy, well, the very existence of a Ravi Zacharias is a fulfilment of this prophecy of Jesus, recorded in the three synoptic Gospels. While I don’t know the content of RZ’s teaching on Daniel, there is such a wealth of fulfilled prophecy in the scriptures that I’m staggered that RZ found it necessary to make up something. But this is also the way of fasle teachers; they can’t help themselves it seems when it comes to inventing things that are not scripturally valid. I have at times in my life worked with victims of sexual abuse. Principally child victims. The behaviour of the predators is appalling beyond belief, but what makes me so angry I have reall trouble containing my anger, is the behaviour of leaders in the churches. I have encountered some of the most despicable words and actions from church leaders in dealing with this disgusting perversion in their midst. Just sickening beyond words. The extent of that particular problem within Evangelical churches is FAR greater than the majority of Christians are aware. I have a friend who spent over half a decade researching this and writing a book about it, which NO Christian publishers will publish. I can provide a link to it online, where you can read it at no cost, if anyone is interested. All of this to say that I applaud Steve’s desire for the truth and I feel the same way about the majority of Christians in the West. I say the West, because there are Christians who live under the threat of death in nations far from the USA and UK, whose lives stand in stark contrast to the Christianity of the western world in so many ways that are almost polar opposites. In the end, it all comes back to the person of Jesus Christ and what He said and did. We are either following Him, or we are follwing our favourite guru. The Ravi Zacharias saga shows how bankrupt that kind of Christianity is at bottom. One last thing is Stave’s quaint notion of believing experts. I don’t. This is what started this whole cult of worshipping the experts in theology and produces men like Ravi Zacharias. Yes he has done incredible damage to many people, but they didn;t HAVE to believe him. Nobody twisted their arms. I grant you that church history has built an edifice that is structured on this premise that we look to the experts rather than trying ot figure it out for ourselves, but we are still adults and have brains that we are REQUIRED BY GOD TO USE. My father was a Doctor of medicine and he drilled into me one thing; that Doctirs are NOT GODS and I should never, ever, just believe someone just because he or she is a Doctor. Not even about medicine. I had school science teachers who held doctorates in more than one scientific discipline and worte high shcool textbooks, who also taught me the same thing with regard to scientists. I don’t have the knowledge that they did, but I know how to think things through critically and when I hear scientists today asy that a male person can become a female person through hormone therapy and some surgical procedures, I don’t need a degree in science to know that they are either lying throuth their teeth, or mentally unstable. There is no excuse for anyone in this age of information to be unable to learn the truth about a great many things. It just depends on how much you really want the truth. I know there’s a whole lot of BS out there, but you learnr to recognise the truth of things if you just put in a little bit of effort. When I was in High School, the scientific world was full of anxiety about the coming Ice Age. One that would see the world mostly freezing to death by the end of the last century. Now I hear them say the opposite with exactly the same amount of fervour. I know from personal experience that the prognostications for the 21st century from these scientists, have not been even a little bit close to reality, so NO, I don’t rely on the experts. Mostly they’re the same as the theological fakirs, who just want fame and money. And maybe a bit of power too if they can get it. I’m afraid Steve, that I’m far more cynical than you, but I still believe in God.
I agree with Steve Baughman's idea of this the warm fuzzy human propensity. Taking it step further as a believer in Christ, the church community here in the US has become a seeker friendly feel good Christianity that bears no resemblance to the true doctrines of Christ nor of the Apostles that I can see in scripture. Making matters worse we in the western world who were the evangelists to the world took this false gospel full circle. Glen when you talked about the Israelites saying that God would not allow for the oppression of an evil dictator to bring devastation to Israel and Judah, even though the prophets made it succinctly clear that indeed the Lord had pronounced judgement upon His people. I truly believe this train wreck of supposed Christianity has brought us to a place globally that if there is not repentance then God who is STILL GOD and the Sovereign God at that will not relent from His Judgement. Very few within my Christian sphere wants to even believe that God has anything to do with the pandemic or societal and economic meltdown, even through this too was prophesied. I pray that Steve will find the truth that Christ is our answer as he was once drawn to the authentic true believers making sacrificial choices to follow and evangelize Christ. May he find those that still believe He is the pearl of great price worth everything! Very good interview!
Don’t forget that God can use atheists to bring people to justice. His starts with his house first. Atheists can still be used by Gos. He doesn’t need atheists to believe in Him. God is sovereign, and lovingly gives us few will. Nobody comes to Gos out of fear, only out of voluntary love!
@@rosatrujillo2675 What god, and how do you know of it? Why do you give yourself permission to create an imaginary world, and tell yourself you know what a "god" is using people for? Can we all just make things up like that?!
How can you tell the difference between "God using someone" and someone just using his own brain? Why is it that when someone doing good it was God using them but in the case of bad things he wasn't? Why wasn't it God using Ravi to abuse this women?
Thanks for this interview. I've heard very unsavory things about the friendly banjo over the past 5 years. It's so good to actually listen to you speak and make my own judgements, even though it's a little too late. I guess RZIM PR team is much more skilled than I imagined and I must admit my own gullibility. I agree 100% about the RZIM apology... It's skillful PR, backed by millions of Dollars at work once again, which does not 'really' admit guilt.
Going by his line of thinking about "betrayal blindness"- if that will be used as an "excuse" can we not use the same measure stick for the victims who were also "groomed" by Mr. Zacharias? Are they not "aware" also that this is married man and the "favors" he is asking for us beyond their "job". I believe that "betrayal blindness" is real and it works overtime. It is "psychological" related more than anything. I suggest that he explores that venue as well. It sounded that he's still laying the grounds to prove that Ravi Is the "face" of all "Christians"... sad ...,🥲
I usually think atheists are out to lunch. But Steve Baughman is an honest man and a fearless reporter. He keeps hammering at the truth until people finally get it.
When I was struggling with Christianity, I had a book by Ravi Zacharias recommended to me. Words like jagoff and dumbass occurred to me as I read it before I even got to the last section which was just a Litany of ad hominem attacks on prominent atheists meant to make the reader think that whatever personal foibles were demonstrated were necessarily rooted in atheism. It was a bad book, and he was a bad writer outside of writing well towards reading aloud for an audience. Now though, I can take his same ad hominem approach and say that his failings were directly and necessarily rooted in the failings of Christianity. Thanks, Ravi!
Big Sin of Silent: I am a Christian who was experienced an ugly church split. I was super-surprised and horrified how people who had been super-nice and reasonable for years, turned on a dime about rather the preschool department should pay 15% more for electricity. You never know people until there is a painful trial. Sin and irrationality runs deeper than we see on the surface. It didn’t matter how many sermons there were on forgiveness and unity. It didn’t even matter that the target director soon after left the church. The cat was out of the bag; the silent feud took over the entire church. 99.99% cried for the silent treatment and letting leaders handle further fall-out, but the hatred keep leaking out and leaders didn’t lead. I was in the 0.01% who thought we needed to put everything on the table and ask the 2 families to present their case to the church. At least have the deacons do this and give a distilled summary to the church body. It never happened and many left the church, including 3 preachers. I left after 2 years of trying the silent treatment, per the leaders. I joined another church which I doubt is any better, but where I tell this story in hope I can influence at least a few. Cover-up is called forgiveness, tolerance, gentleness, & Godly unity. But it is hellish, foolish, and dumbed-down avoidance of the unpleasant truths. The majority does everything to maintain their warm fuzzies and pet simplistic beliefs. This is anti-truth, anti-honest, anti-humble, and anti-Bible. The core problem is not having a couple feuding families in a church, inexperienced leaders, or inexperience with conflict management, but it is man’s deep truth-twisting biases and choice to remain blind. People who choose to seek and face vital truths will learn how to analyze, deal with conflict, select good leaders, and correct miss-behaving members. Generally Christians can’t even agree about what is miss-behavior. Most believe blindness & total silence is virtue; but they can’t even do that as they leak out toxins quietly, year after year. In an atmosphere of hidden tribalism, any mention of tolerance, virtues of silence, or following the preacher is taken as pressure to be more careful, use stronger filters, and become zombie-like, cult-like followers. Suspicions run wild in all directions. More silence & conformity doesn’t help.
Bravo and much respect to Steve Baughman for shining this light on the duplicity and shallowness within subcultures of the American Church. Early America saw its own share of deeply flawed but popular preachers. Nathan O. Hatch in The Democratization of American Christianity observes that the vitality of early American Christianity was correlated with a high degree of pluralism and dissent (p.208). More recently one quarter of United Methodist churches (7000 churches) just recently left the UMC over theological issues related to LGBTQ inclusion into leadership. A new Global Methodist Church has received most of those dissenters. This means that there is still a large majority of Methodist churches (30,000) who remain united and one may presume may be comfortable with pluralism and are able to think for themselves when it comes to sexual ethics. Even in the German and American Catholic church and certain evangelical churches (North Point Community Church, Atlanta) we do not see the kind of non-thinking approach among laity to social issues that Baughman seems to lay only at the feet of conservative evangelical Christianity. So there may not be much cause for alarm from other Ravi' types waiting in the wings. Hatch says that religion seems to adapt to every status group (p.209). Faith is distributed along the political spectrum. Perhaps both the UMC and the Global Methodist Church can become more manifestly Christian, even if in diverse and unexpected ways. American Christianity is firmly linked to democracy which provides its own forms of justifications as the Cranmer quote points out (ie.the majority is right, or contra, a small pure remnant is faithful) Therefore in Europe the attack on Christians after the French revolution was an attack on the opinion of a party much more than as an error in belief, and they rejected the clergy less because they are representatives of God than because they were allies of the government (p. 209). Could Baughman's atheism have more to do with repulsive messengers and their party, than anything repulsive in the claims of Christianity?
Awesome interview and guest. So great to listen to an interview that doesn’t resort to vitriol and defensiveness but give us the facts snd is engaging. Thank you.
I did not know about lies about qualifications. Yes, Steve I want some serious introspection. Steve, I pray you will know Jesus. Glen, I just discovered you, keep speaking truth. 😇
As of today there are 5.8k views and only 165 likes and dislikes combined. I think it’s telling how sobering this is to many of us. This is a really important podcast to watch and share. Not one that you will probably like, and not one you can dislike either. I do think there is an irony contained in the opening worth highlighting. The guest is lamenting that Christians could not hear the message because he is a professing atheist. The accusation that we put the messenger above the message. It is very sad to be here again with another embarrassment from a celebrity preacher.
Devil can also speak to our mind ..Bible it is written my sheep hear my voice ..that means if that thoughts and voice contradict to the word of God ..we shouldn't believe. .we have to cast out ..
I will say that just because I ask God to bless my home, doesn’t mean I don’t want him to bless others homes. God Bless America to me doesn’t mean that His blessings shouldn’t be shared anywhere else.
You bring up many good points. Primary for me, it is critical that a Christian only speak the truth 🙂 I have a lot of respect for you. It’s nice to know what really happened. As an atheist banjo player, with a firm, moral code based upon Christian culture, you already know a lot about entropy. Arguments against Darwinian evolution based upon such are well founded. I don’t know if you realize you have a lot of real Christians, praying for your salvation based on the reveal of your sincere and honest personality 🙂
I listened to this earlier, and was quite perplexed. Not because of Ravi, but those who doubted their trust in Christ because of him. It sounds like their trust was in Ravi, not in Christ. I had to come back and address this tragic situation. I wasn't a follower of Ravi; felt no need for his particular ministry, but some friends went down to a church he was speaking at, so I tagged along. Ravi was very animated as he shared his message, but I got nothing from it. I knew the Lord wasn't there, but didn't understand why. Months later I mentioned that to a friend who was there, and she felt the same way - the Lord was not there. So when this sexual abuse surfaced it wasn't a deep shock; just a sadness, and perplexity as to how someone can claim to serve God and live in such evil. In May 1975 the Lord Jesus came into my room. No, I didn't see Him; but I knew exactly Who He was. I wasn't religious at all, but I knew. He told me to get a Bible and I would find Him there. No, I didn't hear a voice; I didn't see Him or hear Him. But Who He was, and what He said was as clear as the noonday sun. So I went out immediately and found a Bible. For the last 48 years He has revealed Himself to me through His Spirit in His Word. This has totally transformed my life. That's why what you said made no sense to me. I didn't need apologetics to explain Jesus to me. He was quite able to do that on His own. I'm not saying it isn't helpful or needful. The church is in great apostasy now, as prophecy said would take place at the end of days. That's where apologetics are desperately needed. But not the kind Ravi was teaching. When cults are taking over churches, God's Word must be used in defense of the Truth; and exposing the false teachers. Ravi didn't do this. He didn't scrutinize false teachings under the Light of Scripture; at least from anything I heard. I was really saddened when you said people's faith was shaken because of this sex scandal. No doubt it would upset people, but why would that put their faith at risk??? I hope those who feel that way will look a bit deeper into their soul and examine whether they truly know Jesus or not. Having a relationship with Him isn't just knowing the facts about Him. Even the demons know the facts. There has to be a personal relationship with Him ♡ a 'knowing' that goes much deeper - into the depths of our soul. True faith must be put to the test. But it can't be lost because it's sustained by the Spirit of God who has sealed His own for the day of redemption.
You can know all about Jesus via the mind but you cannot know Him by the mind . That’s why a child can lead you. You receive the spiritual things by faith. You looked for the experience to confirm your mind / but the experience comes through faith. That’s what happened to me. All my Christianity was in my head but I decided to believe it, although I hadn’t experienced anything. A little while after I decided to believe that the spiritual realm was indeed mine if I walked with Jesus. Then I began to experience Him. There is still plenty of room for your intellect in the spiritual realm - God Bless
@@chikkipop the Triune God, of course - the one described in the most heavily documented and consistent piece of historical literature of all time. Random guesses about spirituality - like atheism - seem like a mindless stretch of the imagination. 😁
@@KristiLEvans1 *"the one described in the most heavily documented and consistent piece of historical literature of all time"* So you trust the ancient writings of men, from a period when superstition and ignorance were far greater than they are now?! Please offer any *evidence* for your "triune god" that doesn't involve believing what *people* wrote thousands of years ago. *Consistency* of a story does not say anything about whether or not it is true. *"Random guesses about spirituality - like atheism - seem like a mindless stretch of the imagination."* There is nothing "random" about observing the natural world and asking where evidence for a god comes from. If the only thing you can do is refer to an old book which attempted to codify morality by placing its origins in an invisible magical father figure, you have nothing. So again, my questions: What god, and how do you know of it?
@@chikkipop I'm afraid you're using the wrong language Dennis. Every response has to be referenced through the bible otherwise your message will not be understood. Your original and independent thinking is considered arrogant and holds no value for this audience. Try quoting a few passages of scripture and biblical references.
yes Mr Bauhmann i understand your point and I am ashamed how my judgement of character of Ravi failed. I thought I am great in judging people and I thought Ravi was almost an angel. He was a great speaker and he was extremely gifted in teaching, preaching and convincing people. this gift became his curse. I think we chritians felt we had to defend Ravi as if we would defend Christ (God doesnt need our defense btw). I am so sorry. but I now realise once more... i follow Jesus not Ravi or any other preacher. Ravis books are still worth to be read.... they brought me clsoer to God
Trash the books in honor of the damaged victims. There are much better authors- and holier ones. Have nothing to do with the unfrutitful works of darkness but rather expose them!
Ravi zacharias is a human being, not God. Let the word of God, the bible be your foundation not Ravi's stylish words which he preached. Just focus on Jesus Christ who is the true living God, the only one who lived in this world without sin.
I think the big mistake this man is making and most of us makes is we look at people and inside ourselves. Everyone has doubts at times and try to answer them by intelligence. This guy is very taken with himself. Jesus waits on us to look TO Him. Find any human other than Jesus who lives without sin. Good luck. Let's be kind to each other and forgive each other.
I've read that the investigation revealed that in 2012, in Singapore, a local RZIM staff member informed his leadership that he observed Ravi in a hotel lobby area exhibiting compromised body language with a female who was clearly not his wife or one of his daughters -- including their proceeding to a hotel room..... For his courage this staff person was scoriated, spurned, and shunned.
I hope that you will know the truth. My story is similar. The issue is an example of human nature. The deliberate blindness and coverup at RZIM are paralleled in corporate organizations. I have worked for years for a company that loudly proclaimed a zero tolerance bullying and sexual harassment. Well when HR was made aware and a meeting held we were told to grow thicker skin. The harassment continued and 2 employees documented in writing harassment allegations. Now interviews were held and meetings upper management. The out come? We’re told we have no where else for one manager and the other was given a lateral position in the same office. Upper management just covered it up. Sexual harassment allegations and other harassment is just ignored. We will pretend it never happened. God bless my fellow truth seeker
I listened to this whole shpeel and I agree with much that was said. I also was smitten with Ravi and 1st came across him via an Oxford debate I stumbled upon with one of the great atheists, I just don't remember which one. I believe the debate question was "Do we still need God?" Anyhow I was pleased enough to listen to Ravi from time to time. I never regard education alone, and sometimes not at all, as valuable concerning spiritual leaders, and for that matter, not even secular philosopher's. I did however, some years ago, determine to listen to Ravi more often. It came to be that I sensed that the Lord did not want me to continue to do so. I reckoned his apologetic style messages were not edifying for my personal walk with the Lord. I was happy enough that Ravi was out there reaching intellectual lost souls. With all this in mind, I find it no small matter that if indeed there was evidence of Ravi's misinformation concerning his credentials, that there was no Nathan figure in his life. The Truth is spiritual, not philosophical. No one comes to the Truth except by the Spirit. The meek shall inherit the earth and God will not reject a humble plea. Oh and I love that "He will not lose one of His own". If you are a truth seeker, remember "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom". Just think of a good parent and as a child care about the consequence.
@@friendlybanjoatheist5464 well he may not have continued or it was a 1 time event but I seen it with my own eyes and it was the 1st time I was exposed to Ravi.
@@bobbiescales3949 Bobbie. I’m very interested in pursuing this. Can you give me all the details you remember? When was the debate? Were you there or did you watch it online? Was it UA-cam? Which organization sponsored it? Thanks.
@@bobbiescales3949 OK, Bobbie. Please don't disappear. I have done as much research as I can and cannot find any indication that Ravi ever debated anyone in a formal head-to-head format. Because of what you say I contacted a colleague of Ravi's at Oxford who worked with RZIM and knew Ravi;'s Oxford work since around 2006. He says he knows of no such debate and he thinks you have mistaken Ravi for someone else. I am inclined to agree. Ravi did NOT do debates. If you care to provide some more info I will pursue it. But please think carefully before you send me on another wild goose chase. Thx, sb
I’m a full on believer in Jesus and have experienced the power of God in untold ways that I would never expect and I believe Atheism primarily exist because of how “Christian’s” like Ravi act which Ravi was definitely no Christian.. I’m so sorry for how Christian’s have treated Steve! I beg your forgiveness and I thank you fervently for you exposing this hypocrisy and holding us believing people accountable for our hypocrisy!!! I’m praying that God shows you the enemy and his lying whispers and that you can trust God is real because I wish I could tell you my story which almost proves His existence and power! God bless you MR.STEVE
According to research, Victim Blaming and judgments according to the Just World bias mainly take place in the church. I experienced it myself, when I screamed for help in my church because of a marriage full of (paedophile) violence. I wasn't allowed to judge and was removed from their midst.
"Truth above the Tribe" confirms something I still feel after 75 years "with Christ," about the tribe...cynical because so much of the evangelical culture seems very human, but because Jesus was a thoroughgoing supernaturalist. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna but Steve, as you had youthful, real "born again" experiences, He invaded your life, and is still--unseen, supernaturally--there. The kindness, truth-valuing humility that comes across in this interview, makes me sense we're cosmic siblings. You know, "once saved, always saved." I won't get silly and sign off "your sister in Christ..." But that comfort with you is pretty real.
31:20 - 31:50 I'm actually impressed that this guy knows this more than my deluded self at some point in the past, and he's an atheist..... I used to put people who lead Bible study sessions weekly and involved in church matters on a pedestal. And I would attack those who speak against them. Looking back, I'm glad God stopped me by shedding lights on the matter.
Reminds me of 2 Peter 2 verses 1 and 2. Because of this false teacher Ravi, the way of truth was blasphemed. So sad. Thank you both for valuing transparency.
I have attempted to confront people who were doing things that are wrong. It is always very stressful. The truth can be so horrible and people can't handle it. Often people are very angry and hurt by me. There is an awful narcist tendency in some pastoral leaders who are successful. The big lie is a horrific reality. It is particularly awkward when I realize how mediocre I am. Who am I to point out someone else. This further detail here about him pretending and people covering for him. It is affirming in a horrible way. It is impossible to believe that someone can be so immoral and no one knew about it. The Biblical truth and psychological truth is if you are a compulsive immoral person in one area it HAS to spread to other areas. Thanks for sharing. Steve you seem to be a genuine person. I don't sense bitterness or vitriol.
Haven't listened to this yet but will soon....stumbled across this looking for his music. Part time banjo player?? 😂😂 More like one of the best claw players in the world..love this guy 🙏🙏
I remeber this guy from years ago exposing Ravi's credentials. To add to that red flag was a poem he often used in ministry was that attributed wrong. I wrote RZIM about it and they knew it was misattributed. I wondered if Ravi had know it but knew it but misattributed it because it had a greater effect used that way. I also saw how much weight he put on education. it was too much. Those without degrees seemed to be outside of his interest.
It plagues many "churchfamilies" that the image of their own ministry/church is more important than the truth or individuals without much power/say. It can also be ppl defending their money/power/position/status etc. When correct dogma/image etc is more important than doing as Christ did, succeding more important than serving, admiring success more than simple charitable humble life, christlike life withers.
Dear Steve, I am so sorry that people who identify as the Christian community attacked you. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH and you were acting more in line with the God of TRUTH then the club christians. I believe that the God of righteousness and Justice is standing in your corner. I know you don't believe but trust me on this, God will side with an atheist faster then he will a prideful and misguided believer.
To worship God is to worship Him in spirit and truth. Steven is doing exactly Gods will and that make him follower of The Truth, Word of God manifest in flesh. He is a Christian more than 90% who claim to be the same. God bless you Steven.
I want to assure Steve that the Christian church has learned a great deal as a result of what has happened with Ravi Zacharias. I'd go so far as to say that if another person who is also called Ravi Zacharias becomes a famous apologist and travels around the world with a masseur we will be onto them like a shot.
@@TruthIsAsOldAsYah Abuse is the result of the inability of ordinary Christians to make spiritual judgements. To stop it happening we don't focus on abuse but on why we didn't have the ability to see the signs of it before it happened and act. We are talking about the need for wisdom and the Bible says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Yet when you listen to the post abuse analysis would you expect anyone to be talking about the fact that the primary failing was that the environment in which abuse occurred was one without appropriate fear of God?
I need to ask Steve Baughman one question. Did you ever get the idea that God is real and personal just like the Bible portrays Him but only to certain people? What I mean is that God is keeping many of us OUT of that place of Blessed Assurance and objects of His personal care that so many others enjoy? I felt at a period of time deeply that God Is personal and cares for me just like any parent might care for a beloved child even more so. Then there was one time I sinned and that sense evaporated in such a way that I sense the presence of God approximately just like any atheist. Having had that experience though I believe God is real somewhere but He appears to have lost that personal love for me and like has abandoned me to the cruel impersonal forces of the universe in general. However I have not lost the sense that God loves me altogether and the universe is just a cruel impersonal place but I feel His presence very weekly now and keep on searching for it. It is sort of like God is keeping me at arms length or is hiding Himself for what reason I cannot understand.
I would say betrayal blindness is like having an interview with Ravi and letting him charm you so you don’t ask tougher questions, right? Not trying to criticize Steve because what he did was awesome, but we all struggle with different variations of not knowing when to take the stand vehemently and then waiting to see deeper “proof” - so hard! I would say it requires prayer and judgment, but never ignore wrong on its face!
Mr. Baughman is absolutely right about the difference between doing good and making people feel good. If Jesus was around today he would make his listeners feel deeply disturbed, not reassured and on-fire. Rather like the Johnny Cash song “Hurt.”
Ravi also bragged on his Hindu priesthood heritage as if it were a badge of honor. That really made no sense to me. I think Ravi probably started out with having a genuine experience with God after he tried to commit suicide as a 17 year old. His story was compelling, and then that story became a business for him. Not every American Christian is into tribalism. So I hope you realize there are more independent Christian thinkers out there then you think. I wouldn’t trust Steve Bachmans prideful judgement on John Newton. Me thinks he makes some assumptions. John Newton knew he had made an evil choice. When he repented God showed him the error of his ways. Repentance is what opens our eyes to truth.
Isn't "independent Christian thinker" a contradiction in terms. Most religions are firmly dogmatic. The independent thinkers start new denominations, which to me points to a failure of god to communicate his truth.
The first time I saw and heard Ravi I new he was not réal, then when I heard him critisize Richard Dawkins confirmed me of his hypocracy. Be sure he is not the only one In the Christian faith world. Ravi illustrated the fragiliity of the Christian congrégation commening with William. Lane Craig et al!
I am disturbed to see Christian apologetics get such a bad rap in this interview. Our Christian faith is a reasonable faith, able to hold its own in the public square and we are called to be able always to give a reason or a defence of it. The simply “warm fuzzies” of our faith is exactly what apologetics is meant to confront and correct so that our only defence is not only that “he lives within my heart”. The wrong doing on so many fronts of RZ and those who enabled him which Mr. Baughman was right to call out does not negate or disparage the discipline of apologetics. I know I am very thankful for the many Christian apologists who over the years have ministered to my faith and enhanced my understanding of Biblical truth. However, I do know that apologetics can only go so far. There is not an answer for everything and I must be content not to understand or be able to defend absolutely everything at least in this world.
*"Our Christian faith is a reasonable faith, able to hold its own in the public square and we are called to be able always to give a reason or a defence of it."* The first part of that isn't true, and neither is the second. Most of you, when challenged, find one reason or another to bail out of such confrontations. I don't know who you think "calls" you to defend your beliefs, but very few of you do it, and none of you is the least bit persuasive. Prove me wrong. "Biblical truth" isn't a thing, and no one should have "faith".
Good examples of defending faith was to learn thru the life of the Apostols they boldly manifested Jesus by risking themselves. They were persecuted for Christ's Sake. As the words said the blood of the martyr is the seed of the Gospels. Life on earth is temporary but life abide in Christ is permanent. We can defend our faith as long as we carry the image of God in us, not our own image.
@@maitisanw.j7453 Nothing you have just said above is in any way a defense of your belief! You are simply spouting religious nonsense you have been taught. You can't defend "faith" when you *assume* one of the most important things we question about it. Please start by explaining how you know there is a "god" and after that we can get into how it communicates and why you think our temporary life somehow gets extended. Until you can do this, your beliefs will be considered as just like any other superstition which is believed because it is preferred rather than because it is an accurate account of reality.
@@maitisanw.j7453 Morality evolved! It is a function of the brains of living creatures. Evil exists as a *behavior* of humans! If you think morality is something handed down to you from some supernatural being, explain why you feel you should obey this being. What if you disagreed with it? There is no evidence for this being, of course, and your problem with morality is not evidence of anything except this: it is evidence that you don't understand how morality arose in living creatures.
Raised mainstream Methodist in the 1960s (ie., as a “mere Christian”) and having encountered cults and cult-like groups starting in my teens, and having worked for over a decade for Christian publishers, I have always been leery of Evangelical celebrity Christianity. I’m sad to say I’m not shocked in the least by all the wolves in sheep’s clothing in that camp who have been exposed these last several years. It was just a matter of time….Jesus said we cannot serve both God and money, but too many seem to have been taught to pay more attention to the “Romans Road” of the Evangelical PSA gospel and not enough to the words of our Savior in the Gospels-especially to the Rich Young Ruler and in His teaching in the Parable of the Last Judgment in Mathew 25. After forty years struggling to know God better in the Evangelical camp, I came to the place that the reductionist Calvinist-leaning PSA gospel that predominates there no longer made sense to me. It would have taken more faith for me to disbelieve the main claims of the Gospels after listening to apologists like C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell than to believe, but I no longer fit theologically in the Evangelical camp. Catholicism was a non-starter because it too had a juridical-leaning account of our salvation in Christ and I never found the Papal claims convincing. After prayer and seeking, I discovered and embraced Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. We have our own wolvish problems, but in our 2,000-year old spiritual tradition, we also have the antidotes to that and some of the other problems that have plagued Western Christendom. I have never looked back. Glory to God!
Thank you, for your bravery. Even though this was recorded 3 years ago. The mentality is still going on, as far as calling these pastors out for wrong doing.
Splendid interview! Steve Baughman is so smart and so fair-minded.
Steve, is that you?? :-)
@@SpeakLifeMedia😂
@@SpeakLifeMedia Hi. It’s me, Steve B. Thank you for your kind comment. I’m just going through some of these comments now. It’s very eye-opening to read the responses to our discussion.
It’s heartening to encounter open minded people here. (it almost never happened before Ravi died.)
Sadly, there is still a lot of stupidity and people thinking that “judge not” gives them permission to go through with one massive shoulder shrug.
@@zenbanjo2533 Agree. Let me pin your comment...
@@SpeakLifeMedia Yikes! I hope I still agree with what I said. 🤣
Loyalty to the tribe, not the truth. We should always be transparent, but we aren’t. This interview should cause all of us to be looking inward to our heart and making sure we aren’t deceiving ourselves and others.
Oh, the irony.
Tribe?
@@chikkipop Oooooooh, I know.
@Kitty - Nice statement - "Loyalty to the tribe, not the truth"
I wonder what he means born again?
As a follower of Christ, I love Steve’s authenticity and speaking of his doubts, and I love the pastor’s questions and interview style. We need to give space to people in their seeking process. There are many many reasons people turn away from the faith, and their stories deserve to be heard
Steve is articulating everything very clearly without any bitterness to anyone. He just wanted to know the truth.
Thanks a lot.
These videos you're doing, Glen, are so important. And I thank Steve for holding Christians accountable to our proclaimed ideals. The findings on Ravi really shook me as a Christian who used to admire him greatly. I feel completely duped by Zacharias. I thought he was someone who walked the walk. Boy, what a smackdown the truth was. And the behavior of those who tried to conceal and protect his "legacy" disgusted and enraged me further. This whole scandal has completely disheartened me. I know we are all sinners and no man is above it, but damn. People were praying for you, Ravi, and you were lying to everyone, including your family. I can't even imagine what they're going through, unless they still deny the truth. Anyway, I've given up on looking up to Christian speakers and so-called "models and exemplars." It reminds me to just keep my eyes on Jesus from here on out. Message received, loud and clear.
Ravi is God's "shot across the bow" to modern Christianity in all its iterations.
@The History Shelf, Ravi's daughter has issued statements regarding forward progress, and she and the family are amazing in their acknowledgement and integrity following the terrible behaviour of her father. ❤️
I am still disturbed at what has happened. While actions like this can easily make people less trusting of Christians (especially from an atheist's perspective). There is a sad reality that atheists don't realize. Superficially, it looks like Christians are hypocrites who don't always practice what they preach. In actuality, Satan attacks/tempts Christians the most as his hatred is strongest toward this group of people. He will not go after those who don't follow God as much as those who do. Its actually frightening how big the cross heirs are for Christian leaders in positions like these.
You're halfway there! Keep going, because there is nothing to Christianity or any other ancient myth. Don't be gullible.
@@user-qr8ki8ue4i What "god" and how would you know this?
Very insightful and instructive discussion. Steve Baughman fell into place as a natural vessel, and a commendable and notable mouthpiece to oversee the tragedy of Ravi Zacharias. I hope that Baughman who gave up on Christianity will find that the excellency of Christ has not given up on him.
Thank you for this thoughtful, respectful interview. I am a devout Christian, and I was raised by devout Christians who placed great importance on critical thinking. We were taught to never take anyone at face value, or at least, not at what they say about themselves. There are plenty of fakes and fakirs in all faiths, whether theists or atheists. We were taught to explore and research, and I do it to this very day. Read a report quoting a Harvard medical study? Must be true? No, I’m going to find the Harvard report and read it for myself. Even when it is something I agree with, I still want to see for myself.
I saw Ravi speak, and he was a charming, charismatic speaker. But at the end of one talk, I remember thinking “Wow! He really pussyfooted around the elephant in the room! He wasn’t decisive and forceful enough. He gave a very soft, diluted Gospel message!” Was he afraid if he was too didactic, his dark shadows would be exposed? Likely. Many of Ravi’s talks were great, and I do not doubt many came to seek or follow Christ because of hearing him. What is heartbreaking to me, at least, is that he lied about his credentials, his marriage vows, and worst of all, he lied to himself before God. His poor wife, who early in his career, stuck at home with small kids, said how isolated and diminished she felt while Ravi was becoming the global star. He not only betrayed her trust and his marriage contract, he belittled and dishonored and dismissed her as less than deserving as he pursued his own desires.
You had wonderful parents! What a blessing! It took me until age 42, with a neglectful childhood and a 14 yr marriage to a "Christian" abuser, then getting free that I've finally landed in a place where I question everything & find out for myself, instead of being spoon fed by media or pastors/faith leaders 😊
Grace of Christ remains . May Holy Spirit help your humble heart to take decisions to live the rest of life understanding the redeeming power . May you meet a Bible centered fellowship
@@SuperAbebaby I am attending a great Bible-teaching/studying church, with staff that is very transparent. If there is any area in a church that is off limits to its members, steer clear!
*"Raised by devout Christians who placed great importance on critical thinking"*
That's hilarious! Of course, if you or your parents were actually serious about critical thinking you wouldn't be Christians!
You folks say the darndest things! 🙄
You spoke well. I used to watch Ravi but I did not put my faith to Ravi but my faith is in Jesus Christ alone. I pray for this guy to find Christ Again because time is short.
Amen.
Praise the lord You r true followers of lord jesus christ
As a Christian, I am grateful for you, Steve, for being more honest about your athiest background than many Christians. I was a Zacharias follower and tried to learn from him, though his philosophical-type way of teaching oftentimes was very hard for me to understand. I pray for his wife and family, as I can't imagine what they must be going through. Humans, faithful or not, have a LOT to learn.
Thats what happens with False prophets ! .
You should be grateful for what Christ did for you… Steve is still an atheist . As a Christian, you should kneel and pray for apologists who fight for Christ our a Lord . How many times have you prayed for Ravi Z ? Or people like Ravi ?
We fail to pray to people who profess the gospel and when they fall into sin we just throw stones at them holding hands with atheists ?
As Christians we should treat this carefully. Very carefully….
I believe: Ravi Z was indeed a man of God , gifted with knowledge but he lacked in fundamental Bible reading and personal prayer . He fell into sinful ways. But God is always faithful . He allowed the world to expose his life , probably to make Ravi repent . I really wish Ravi repented in his death bed… Although Ravi’s entire work is gone , his soul would have been saved (I really wish) … But , those who expose the sins of others , will have their own exposed in the same way on judgement day . In a way , I feel happy for what happened with Ravi , for God didn’t leave him to die while he was still living in sinfulness….
This was the most marvelous interview. The word celebrity was used so aptly. I am an older Jewish woman who is profoundly grateful for having been led to a profession of faith in 1971 & for the subsequent 5 decades of trying (imperfectly) to follow daily counsel & leadership of the Holy Spirit. Though one of my undergraduate majors was Philosophy, my willingness to make a profession of faith was totally devoid of emotion; I knew only that having ME on the throne wasn't working. (Now I probably profit from Ligonier Ministries studies and Precept studies because of having been a Philosophy major).
Today in the US in Christendom one sees clusters of people sometimes following various Christian "celebrities" (both male & female) in a way that seems to be a troubling form of hero worship. It is ironic as we are urged to be Bereans. It also may correlate with being a consumer rather than a mindset of servant. Mr. Baughman, selfishly I hope you come on board one day. You are so winsome, vulnerable, likeable, logical --it would so bless the body of Christ to have you amongst us. I am CURRENTLY reading your book about RZ. It is so fair, judicial & temperate you are the cause of my loss of sleep this week :) Sorry if name icon comes up 2x. Computer glitch we don't know how to fix.
Thanks. You are a great learned woman. 👌
Thank you so much, Glen and Speak Life team for this courageous interview. Steve Baughman is a true human being! Congratulations!
Respect to this man for exposing an evil corporation
Thanks for this interview, and to Mr. Baughman for coming on. His criticism of the Church were very instructive and well balanced.
Yes i see says the blind man
@@lucaswilhelmmeyer6943
Not sure what that reply is supposed to indicate, but I do know the difference between neutrality and impartiality. While I am not neutral about my own morals, I do try ( not always successfully ) to apply them in an impartial way. This distinction , for me anyway, has come mostly thru lived experience. Learning the law probably gives lawyers a leg up on making these distinctions. After all, their livelihood depends on it. Mr. Baughman , in this case, seems to recognize how " bad faith" cuts across many ethical borders. So, I think Christians have something to gain by listening to him. I also like the banjo.
@@malpais776 he does kill on the banjo - and he did Christendom a great service in persevering through the Zacharias reporting. This might’ve stayed in the dark.
So someone who is an unbeliever is right and balanced ? he is just the opposite to that , he does not know the things of God and is in need of salvation, if he does not get saved there will be avert hot place awaiting for him when he passes on , with the rest od unbelievers ! .
I do like his thoughtfulness and honesty. Great interview Glen - again.
Thank you for uncovering the truth. Yes, we deny to protect the image of these men. This is why we should never put man on a pedestal, they always come crashing down. A burned one, learned one.
Yes Salvation is all of God and Nothing of man , For we are saved by Grace alone , through Faith alone , in Jesus Christ Alone , and ALL to the GLORY OF GOD ALONE ! .
I was a young Christian when I discovered that those outside the tribe often had a sharper eye out for the wolves than the sheep could accept. I like that we have Steve's sharp eyes on the Church's "six."
Hopefully by now you've also discovered that "those outside the tribe" were outside of it for good reasons, and you decided to join them.
@@chikkipop The good news of God's love, not the institutional church, is as the Sun shining in one's soul. Be well.
@@joannegriffin You make an astonishing claim. It shows how indoctrinated you are, because you use a common Christian phrase about "good news," and talk of a "god" who "loves" people. This is all what you've been taught, and you've fallen for it.
Indoctrination is not easy to overcome, particularly when it is designed to appeal to your emotions, and is something you *WISH* to believe. Most folks who do grow out of it are amazed to understand how naïve they were to have actually believed there was a magical invisible father figure who loved them and communicated via some kind of telepathy so that the "experience" was private, and could not be objectively confirmed. They get angry when they realize they've fallen for an ancient myth.
I hope you grow out of it, and come to prefer reality over comforting fiction. You will be a wiser and more mature adult when you do!
@@chikkipop The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument. You have not the gift of persuasion to make one consider your tired tropes, nor to wager what is in hand for the pittance of your penseés.
@@joannegriffin What an absurd quote! Anyone can claim they've had an "experience" but that doesn't mean a "god" exists or that voodoo is real or any of countless other superstitions. And "tired tropes"? Utter nonsense. My points are sound and you would do well to consider them. The childish covering of your ears at the sound of reason is typical of the insecure believer. Grow up and face reality like an adult.
I'm so sorry to Steve Baughman for bad behavior from Christian's. I never heard any rumblings about Ravi until his death. I am frequently naive. I'm praying for my ignorance. May God give me wisdom. It only leads me back to my savior! All men are sinners and Christ my only savior.
*"I am frequently naive."* Followed by a perfect example: *"I'm praying for my ignorance. May God give me wisdom. It only leads me back to my savior! All men are sinners and Christ my only savior."* How interesting; you know you're naïve. You just have no idea *HOW* naïve! ;-)
@Dennis - Oh brother! 😆
@@tloko2610 Huh? What did I say that you liked so much?
Don't put all of us Christians in the same box Love , we are all born sinners , for when Adam disobeyed Almighty God in the garden We All inherited his fallen nature , and thats why we need a Saviour , Jesus Christ was our official sacrifice for All of our sins even before we were born , in fact BEFORE THE WORLD WAS MADE we were Chosen of God the Father in Jesus Christ , all of our sins were forgiven when He Jesus Christ died upon the cross, before many of us were even born , we were just brought into the knowledge of that salvation at our appointed time . EPH. 1 ; 3 - 7, once you see it things will Never be the same again , but before reading you must ask the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to see , If you do He will ., PS . Once you see it you will see it all over the Scriptures .PS that does not mean you can keep on sinning , if you do it will just show that you were never one of Gods Chosen . Cheers and God Bless !.
This man is a prophet preaching from the wilderness to us about the sanctity of truth. It's a lesson we need to learn. Thank you glen for arranging these interviews.
He is an unsaved man , nothing more then this , and in Gods eyes still an unrepentant lost sinner in need of Gods Grace !.
So interesting he grew up in Malaysia.. so did I... and am surprised he is not a Christian, I felt a great connection to him in his videos.. for me I love with Jesus, talk to him and have seen the miraculous.. I Love this guy’s manner and honesty. Being cynical about people is what Jesus was too.. he said he put his faith in no man.
Hearing this stuff about Ravi for the first time today, I am surprised at how much it is affecting me. I didn't even follow him closely but I liked the way he taught & I learned a lot from Ravi. I'm very disappointed but my hope is in Jesus, the only Man who never sinned. What hurts my heart almost as much is this man's denial of Christianity. Don't look to man, they will ALWAYS let you down. But please take this from a Senior old woman....run back to God. He knows you best & loves you best! ❤
Steve has persevered under withering criticism and shunning from the Christian community. We do Christ no service with our behaviors. Best we can do is pray for Steve.
I must admit I was dismissive of Steve before but now I can see how accurate he was. People just didn't want to believe him.
This is very sad. This is a eye opener for all who follow mega churches. Bussines as usual.
If your faith depended on Ravi, a mere mortal, then sorry, you where never a Christian.
*"If your faith depended on Ravi, a mere mortal, then sorry, you where never a Christian."* How silly. A confident-sounding statement from someone so gullible as to not understand he depends upon "mere mortals" himself, without whom he would not have come to the "faith" these mortals invented. No one should have such faith.
True word, worship him in spirit and truth.
@@chikkipop You have literally zero idea what you’re talking about. We follow Jesus who is no mere mortal. Even our scriptures weren’t written and preserved by mere mortals, but inspired and preserved by the Holy Spirit of God Himself. So… Your pseudo-intellectual comment doesn’t make any sense. If you don’t understand what Christians actually believe you’re just beating a straw man.
@@alexanderhanksx *"You have literally zero idea what you’re talking about."*
I just *LOVE* when people say that, and then proceed to prove that I *DO* know whereof I speak! Let's take a look, shall we Chris?:
*"We follow Jesus who is no mere mortal."*
Oh. Well then, I guess that settles it. ;-)
You "follow" a person who may have existed centuries ago. There was a guy named Ralph who lived back in the 1800s; do you "follow" him? I don't "follow" anyone, so I'm not sure what it entails. Do you wear little trinkets around your neck with an image of the guy you "follow" nailed to a medieval torture device? ;-)
And this guy was no "mere mortal"??! Wow. How did you learn this? I'm way too "mere" to have such astonishing "knowledge." ;-)
*"Even our scriptures weren’t written and preserved by mere mortals, but inspired and preserved by the Holy Spirit of God Himself"*
Your "scriptures"! Wow. And something called a "Holy Spirit"?! And no less than a "God *HIMSELF?!* Wow.
You just cannot overstate how gullible the believer is. Make a comment criticizing the naivete of such beliefs, and someone jumps in to clarify what they believe, which is *PRECISELY* what I was saying!
Indoctrinate people when they're too young to reason, and this is what you get: adults with imaginary father figures to "follow."
@@chikkipop dennis is being Dennis case proven!.... Folks he trolls just ignore him.
Just now seeing this video, two years later and very much appreciate this man's continued efforts to expose the sickness that sometimes pervades Christianity. I especially Steve's honest insight into humanity's interaction within its own community.
What an interview!!! I was looking for it! Excellent! and Thanks for doing the interview dear brother. A starking proof how the Mighty Creator uses even an atheist to expose the enemies of Truth masquerading. I still feel Steve Baughman is not an atheist, he feels he is but he is not. He is aligned to The Truth! He is little bit confused because of the utter confusion and chaos by so called outer organisations. May Beloved Father gives him direct revelation, that is my earnest prayer as he did with me in India with no church and religious organisation intervention ! And I am still going on without any outer organisations but definitely in fellowship with Him, His Beloved Son Yeshua and His Everlasting Ruach!
Agree. Same here.
He may not be in religion but yet believe in God👉"Oh my God"
This is an amazing interview for its honesty and intellectual ideas that the average person can comprehend.
Thank you! I haven’t found anything that resonates so deeply with me for several years.
God Bless this guy, Christians can learn a lot from his example.
Steve. I’m going to miss this guy. He’s done us all a great service, and he tolerated a lot of shunning and abuse to persevere.
It's better to be honest about not believing, because when you do believe nobody can take it away. I pray that in time God will show Himself to you, and His grace will sweep away any and all doubt.
He will if he is one of Gods chosen , if not He won't .
@happyforever1528 Wow.... Cynical aren't you!?
Very good interview! Thank you Glen and Steve! As christians we have a lot of soul-searching to do.
The problem always in Churches that the leader is unquestionable! He is always right that is the attitudes! I came from a Catholic Church god had done wonders in my life! I the beginning the Church I was involved was very genuine! There were all the gifts of the holy spirit. I too married a Hindu convert It is better to marry Hindu convert with Hindu convert rather than Christian convert with a hindu convert! Now people are doing this way! I It is difficult to open one's heart in public There are many victims ! West it is ope everything but eastern culture woman suffer silently ! Steve, you born in Chritian or missionary family does t mean anything! Why atheist there because there is true god! There are many Christian s come to India many reasons Some truly for Christ some are for personal interest!
Christians taken up with a convert gifted in speaking is very dangerous! There are worse than Ravi Zacharias who destroyed for ones own gain
It is dangerous to give undue place in the Church for gift of speaking !
Instead of wasting time soul-searching, spend some time perusing religious texts of the Indian subcontinent.
SANATAN DHARMA is the ONLY true philosophy.
Christianity spread across the world by aggression, bloodshed and deceit.
Don't make your pastors/leaders reputation more important then that of Christ. That's the lesson we should learn.
And if you *really* want to learn a lesson, you can start by not being so gullible as to believe ancient myths about unseen supernatural father figures. Frauds like Ravi make a good career out of the gullibility of people.
Exactly!
@@chikkipop Your comment tells me that you have never done your homework.
@@pontiac411 Please let me know what homework I need to do! You can help me!
History and Archeology in relation to the bible would be a good start.
This was very enlightening & convicting, thanks Glen.
It was very refreshing to see a discussion which took, head on, a key issue which other videos on Zacharias carefully tip-toe around: how much did RZIM personnel know about what was going on; when did they know it; and why were they so very slow in doing anything about it? It certainly looks as if they thought that protecting their jobs and careers was more important than protecting Zacharias’s victims.
"Religion" is the problem. Steve is a "Truther" and sees the Big picture. Many believers have left the church due to the "broken church" and the "religious spirit.Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, knowing Father, Son and The Holy Spirit and studying the Bible for oneself works. Steve knows so much and he has heart! God Bless. So sorry about Ravi Z.
Man, this interviewer is great! Patient, polite, lets the guest speak.
Grateful for men like this willing to take the heat and not making it a Christ bashing event.
As a Christian I agree with everything this ‘atheist’ says.
I do too - I feel he's my soul brother! If someone says that I can't have a soul brother who's not a Christian ... then I think they've lost sight of the beatitudes (and most of Matthew's Gospel)
We know ourself only when we face an opposition.
Fantastic discussion
As a nonreligeous person, I take heart finding this conversation on a religious website. Thank you.
Except you're a "Christian". Why?
Fascinating discussion. Ravi Zacharias has put on display just how devastating sin is. His name, videos, books and memory should be eradicated from view for the sake of his victims. He had a wife and family, I have no idea what to recommend regarding them.
I know
I hope he repent at the end of his life
for his wealth i truly pray 🙏 he did 🙏 I also hope and pray for his family 👪 that the lord give them courage and strength to go on with life
Thats what people get when they are trusting in man and make an Idol of him instead of God !.
Thank you Steve... You mentioned thay you prayed that God will let Himself reveal to you ... He heard it and He will as He promised.. I am sure that He used your skepticism and honesty to expose this issue among Christian leaders and churches..
I’m 66 years old, soon to be 67. At the age of 7 I realised that I was a sinner and that Jesus died for my sake and that by faith I could have Him live within me, through His spirit. I couldn’t have put it in exactly those words at that time, but according to the Bible, I believed on Him, as per John 3:16. I have doubted my own position before God many times in the intervening years, but I have never doubted the existence of God. Ever. It’s not a matter of BELIEVING God exists and that the Bible is true, I KNOW these things. As surely that I KNOW that gravity keeps me from flying off the ground. What I have learned though, through many hard lessons, is that I cannot rely on man. The thing that strikes me as I listen to this conversation is that the Bible repeatedly tells us that to put our trust in any man is a pointless and even dangerous exercise. I have been aware of, thorugh one means or another, MANY church leaders whose stories are clones of Ravi’s, in one way or another, or to greater or lesser degrees. I have learned that the ONLY man I can trust implicitly, is Jesus Christ. As Glen pointed out, this has been the case throughout the history recorded in the scriptures, from the very beginning, right through to the last book of the Bible.
I’m frankly bemused by the number of professing Christians who don’t read their Bibles, don’t know what the Bible catually says about a great many things, and worst of all, will try to explain away why they shouldn’t bother to do either of those things. I agree with Steve when he says that most people (and Christians are among the worst at this!) don’t WANT to wrestle with uncomfortable truths. They want someone esle to do the heavy lifting when it comes to thinkiong things through, in spite of the fact that the Bible is replete with admonitions to do exactly the opposite to what they want. None of this should be a surprise to anyone who reads their Bible for themselves, because Jesus TOLD us that what I would call organised Christianity would become ‘top heavy’ and be corrupted. This began very sson after His death and resurrection, within the lifetimes of His followers such as John and His brither Jude, as well as Paul. I have read with horror the teachings of men whom the ‘authorities’ in ‘The Church’ revere and hang their theologies on. To think that men such as Origen of Alexandria (c. 185 to c. 253) were teaching the vilest things about Jews, after Paul’s very clear and stern warnings NOT to do so in Romans, shows just how corrupted the teachings of so-called learned men became in so short a time. Augustine is revered by both Catholic and Protestant thologians and his teachings are an appalling perversion of the scriptures, but hey, he’s one of the ‘Church Fathers’, so we whould make our reading of scripture line up with his. Ravi was definitely not the first and he has some real winners in his company. Martin Luther started well with the 95 Theses, which he nailed to the door in Wittenberg, but in later life, he became embittered by hi failure to win over any Jeiwsh converts and began to write essays and sermons which the Nazis republished with delight, as they called for such persecutions of the Jews, that it’s hard to read them and not think that they were perhaps the work of Josef Goebbels instead.
Luther was not the only ‘Christian’ to call for persecution of Jews, but it’s sadly ironic that earlier in his life, he had bitterly cristicised the Vatican for its own persecutions of Jewish people.
The writings of men who are revered as great men of God and studied ad infinitum by theological scholars the world over, make the Nazis look very tame indeed if one has the courage to actually read them and consider the depths of vitriolic hatred that motivated them. I find it not at all surprising that there are any number of theological luminaries today who claim to speak on behalf of Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew from the Tribe of Judah, a descendant of David, and yet preach that the Jews deserved the Holocaust, and have no right to the land of Israel today and should just take their lumps from the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah.
Then we have the Televangelists and hucksters of the Word of Faith movement that I had the misfortune to experience from the inside during mny teens. That’s a whole other story, but it was precisely because of the many RZ type scandals that beset that cult, that I began to question literally EVERYTHING a few decades ago. I did what most people in such a position do and started by trying to find OTHER men who taught quite different doctrines in a vaiun attempt to find the truth, but what I found was more of the same, just in different clothes and using different aftershave.
It wasn’t until I just began reading the Bible for myself and seeking to know the truth, that I made any kind of headway in discerning it. Which is again, what the Bible says that we should do.
John wrote in his first Epistle that we have no need that ANY man teach us (1 John 2:27) and in those texts that urge us to search the scriptures to test everything, there’s an implicit expectance that we are capable of learning from the scriptures DIRECTLY, without the need of these learned men, who are just like the Pharisees and Scribes of Jesus’ day. His words to them ring down through the ages to absolutely condemn those who use the scriptures for their own ends and lead others astray (Matthew 23, especially, verse 15) and as I said, Jesus said in parables that this would get worse and worse. He also warned the disciples on the Mt of Olives that this would be the case in what is known as the Olivet Discourse.
Steve mentioned fulfilled prophecy, well, the very existence of a Ravi Zacharias is a fulfilment of this prophecy of Jesus, recorded in the three synoptic Gospels. While I don’t know the content of RZ’s teaching on Daniel, there is such a wealth of fulfilled prophecy in the scriptures that I’m staggered that RZ found it necessary to make up something. But this is also the way of fasle teachers; they can’t help themselves it seems when it comes to inventing things that are not scripturally valid.
I have at times in my life worked with victims of sexual abuse. Principally child victims. The behaviour of the predators is appalling beyond belief, but what makes me so angry I have reall trouble containing my anger, is the behaviour of leaders in the churches. I have encountered some of the most despicable words and actions from church leaders in dealing with this disgusting perversion in their midst. Just sickening beyond words. The extent of that particular problem within Evangelical churches is FAR greater than the majority of Christians are aware. I have a friend who spent over half a decade researching this and writing a book about it, which NO Christian publishers will publish. I can provide a link to it online, where you can read it at no cost, if anyone is interested.
All of this to say that I applaud Steve’s desire for the truth and I feel the same way about the majority of Christians in the West. I say the West, because there are Christians who live under the threat of death in nations far from the USA and UK, whose lives stand in stark contrast to the Christianity of the western world in so many ways that are almost polar opposites.
In the end, it all comes back to the person of Jesus Christ and what He said and did. We are either following Him, or we are follwing our favourite guru. The Ravi Zacharias saga shows how bankrupt that kind of Christianity is at bottom.
One last thing is Stave’s quaint notion of believing experts. I don’t. This is what started this whole cult of worshipping the experts in theology and produces men like Ravi Zacharias. Yes he has done incredible damage to many people, but they didn;t HAVE to believe him. Nobody twisted their arms. I grant you that church history has built an edifice that is structured on this premise that we look to the experts rather than trying ot figure it out for ourselves, but we are still adults and have brains that we are REQUIRED BY GOD TO USE. My father was a Doctor of medicine and he drilled into me one thing; that Doctirs are NOT GODS and I should never, ever, just believe someone just because he or she is a Doctor. Not even about medicine. I had school science teachers who held doctorates in more than one scientific discipline and worte high shcool textbooks, who also taught me the same thing with regard to scientists. I don’t have the knowledge that they did, but I know how to think things through critically and when I hear scientists today asy that a male person can become a female person through hormone therapy and some surgical procedures, I don’t need a degree in science to know that they are either lying throuth their teeth, or mentally unstable.
There is no excuse for anyone in this age of information to be unable to learn the truth about a great many things. It just depends on how much you really want the truth. I know there’s a whole lot of BS out there, but you learnr to recognise the truth of things if you just put in a little bit of effort. When I was in High School, the scientific world was full of anxiety about the coming Ice Age. One that would see the world mostly freezing to death by the end of the last century. Now I hear them say the opposite with exactly the same amount of fervour. I know from personal experience that the prognostications for the 21st century from these scientists, have not been even a little bit close to reality, so NO, I don’t rely on the experts. Mostly they’re the same as the theological fakirs, who just want fame and money. And maybe a bit of power too if they can get it. I’m afraid Steve, that I’m far more cynical than you, but I still believe in God.
Thank you. Blessings and love in Christ
I agree with Steve Baughman's idea of this the warm fuzzy human propensity. Taking it step further as a believer in Christ, the church community here in the US has become a seeker friendly feel good Christianity that bears no resemblance to the true doctrines of Christ nor of the Apostles that I can see in scripture.
Making matters worse we in the western world who were the evangelists to the world took this false gospel full circle. Glen when you talked about the Israelites saying that God would not allow for the oppression of an evil dictator to bring devastation to Israel and Judah, even though the prophets made it succinctly clear that indeed the Lord had pronounced judgement upon His people. I truly believe this train wreck of supposed Christianity has brought us to a place globally that if there is not repentance then God who is STILL GOD and the Sovereign God at that will not relent from His Judgement. Very few within my Christian sphere wants to even believe that God has anything to do with the pandemic or societal and economic meltdown, even through this too was prophesied.
I pray that Steve will find the truth that Christ is our answer as he was once drawn to the authentic true believers making sacrificial choices to follow and evangelize Christ. May he find those that still believe He is the pearl of great price worth everything! Very good interview!
Don’t forget that God can use atheists to bring people to justice. His starts with his house first. Atheists can still be used by Gos. He doesn’t need atheists to believe in Him. God is sovereign, and lovingly gives us few will. Nobody comes to Gos out of fear, only out of voluntary love!
Do you listen to yourself when you say these things??! Can't you let go of your god delusion? You don't need it.
Exactly! God use atheists to bless us. God is good!
@@rosatrujillo2675 What god, and how do you know of it? Why do you give yourself permission to create an imaginary world, and tell yourself you know what a "god" is using people for? Can we all just make things up like that?!
@Dennis - Oh my word!...You crack me up 🤣👏🏽👏🏽
Nice 1 👍🏽
How can you tell the difference between "God using someone" and someone just using his own brain? Why is it that when someone doing good it was God using them but in the case of bad things he wasn't? Why wasn't it God using Ravi to abuse this women?
Thanks for this interview. I've heard very unsavory things about the friendly banjo over the past 5 years. It's so good to actually listen to you speak and make my own judgements, even though it's a little too late. I guess RZIM PR team is much more skilled than I imagined and I must admit my own gullibility. I agree 100% about the RZIM apology... It's skillful PR, backed by millions of Dollars at work once again, which does not 'really' admit guilt.
Going by his line of thinking about "betrayal blindness"- if that will be used as an "excuse" can we not use the same measure stick for the victims who were also "groomed" by Mr. Zacharias? Are they not "aware" also that this is married man and the "favors" he is asking for us beyond their "job". I believe that "betrayal blindness" is real and it works overtime. It is "psychological" related more than anything. I suggest that he explores that venue as well. It sounded that he's still laying the grounds to prove that Ravi Is the "face" of all "Christians"... sad ...,🥲
I usually think atheists are out to lunch. But Steve Baughman is an honest man and a fearless reporter. He keeps hammering at the truth until people finally get it.
When I was struggling with Christianity, I had a book by Ravi Zacharias recommended to me. Words like jagoff and dumbass occurred to me as I read it before I even got to the last section which was just a Litany of ad hominem attacks on prominent atheists meant to make the reader think that whatever personal foibles were demonstrated were necessarily rooted in atheism. It was a bad book, and he was a bad writer outside of writing well towards reading aloud for an audience. Now though, I can take his same ad hominem approach and say that his failings were directly and necessarily rooted in the failings of Christianity. Thanks, Ravi!
Big Sin of Silent: I am a Christian who was experienced an ugly church split. I was super-surprised and horrified how people who had been super-nice and reasonable for years, turned on a dime about rather the preschool department should pay 15% more for electricity. You never know people until there is a painful trial. Sin and irrationality runs deeper than we see on the surface. It didn’t matter how many sermons there were on forgiveness and unity. It didn’t even matter that the target director soon after left the church. The cat was out of the bag; the silent feud took over the entire church. 99.99% cried for the silent treatment and letting leaders handle further fall-out, but the hatred keep leaking out and leaders didn’t lead. I was in the 0.01% who thought we needed to put everything on the table and ask the 2 families to present their case to the church. At least have the deacons do this and give a distilled summary to the church body. It never happened and many left the church, including 3 preachers. I left after 2 years of trying the silent treatment, per the leaders. I joined another church which I doubt is any better, but where I tell this story in hope I can influence at least a few. Cover-up is called forgiveness, tolerance, gentleness, & Godly unity. But it is hellish, foolish, and dumbed-down avoidance of the unpleasant truths. The majority does everything to maintain their warm fuzzies and pet simplistic beliefs. This is anti-truth, anti-honest, anti-humble, and anti-Bible.
The core problem is not having a couple feuding families in a church, inexperienced leaders, or inexperience with conflict management, but it is man’s deep truth-twisting biases and choice to remain blind. People who choose to seek and face vital truths will learn how to analyze, deal with conflict, select good leaders, and correct miss-behaving members. Generally Christians can’t even agree about what is miss-behavior. Most believe blindness & total silence is virtue; but they can’t even do that as they leak out toxins quietly, year after year. In an atmosphere of hidden tribalism, any mention of tolerance, virtues of silence, or following the preacher is taken as pressure to be more careful, use stronger filters, and become zombie-like, cult-like followers. Suspicions run wild in all directions. More silence & conformity doesn’t help.
Final note to RZIM in the words of Judge Judy: Dont pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
Bravo and much respect to Steve Baughman for shining this light on the duplicity and shallowness within subcultures of the American Church. Early America saw its own share of deeply flawed but popular preachers. Nathan O. Hatch in The Democratization of American Christianity observes that the vitality of early American Christianity was correlated with a high degree of pluralism and dissent (p.208). More recently one quarter of United Methodist churches (7000 churches) just recently left the UMC over theological issues related to LGBTQ inclusion into leadership. A new Global Methodist Church has received most of those dissenters. This means that there is still a large majority of Methodist churches (30,000) who remain united and one may presume may be comfortable with pluralism and are able to think for themselves when it comes to sexual ethics. Even in the German and American Catholic church and certain evangelical churches (North Point Community Church, Atlanta) we do not see the kind of non-thinking approach among laity to social issues that Baughman seems to lay only at the feet of conservative evangelical Christianity. So there may not be much cause for alarm from other Ravi' types waiting in the wings. Hatch says that religion seems to adapt to every status group (p.209). Faith is distributed along the political spectrum. Perhaps both the UMC and the Global Methodist Church can become more manifestly Christian, even if in diverse and unexpected ways. American Christianity is firmly linked to democracy which provides its own forms of justifications as the Cranmer quote points out (ie.the majority is right, or contra, a small pure remnant is faithful) Therefore in Europe the attack on Christians after the French revolution was an attack on the opinion of a party much more than as an error in belief, and they rejected the clergy less because they are representatives of God than because they were allies of the government (p. 209). Could Baughman's atheism have more to do with repulsive messengers and their party, than anything repulsive in the claims of Christianity?
Awesome interview and guest. So great to listen to an interview that doesn’t resort to vitriol and defensiveness but give us the facts snd is engaging.
Thank you.
I did not know about lies about qualifications. Yes, Steve I want some serious introspection. Steve, I pray you will know Jesus. Glen, I just discovered you, keep speaking truth. 😇
As of today there are 5.8k views and only 165 likes and dislikes combined. I think it’s telling how sobering this is to many of us. This is a really important podcast to watch and share. Not one that you will probably like, and not one you can dislike either. I do think there is an irony contained in the opening worth highlighting. The guest is lamenting that Christians could not hear the message because he is a professing atheist. The accusation that we put the messenger above the message. It is very sad to be here again with another embarrassment from a celebrity preacher.
If someone hears a 'still small voice' inside telling him his prayers are going nowhere, how does that fit with a nonsupernatural worldview?
Devil can also speak to our mind ..Bible it is written my sheep hear my voice ..that means if that thoughts and voice contradict to the word of God ..we shouldn't believe. .we have to cast out ..
I will say that just because I ask God to bless my home, doesn’t mean I don’t want him to bless others homes. God Bless America to me doesn’t mean that His blessings shouldn’t be shared anywhere else.
You bring up many good points. Primary for me,
it is critical that a Christian only speak the truth 🙂
I have a lot of respect for you. It’s nice to know what really happened. As an atheist banjo player, with a firm, moral code based upon Christian culture, you already know a lot about entropy.
Arguments against Darwinian evolution based upon such are well founded.
I don’t know if you realize you have a lot of real Christians, praying for your salvation based on the reveal of your sincere and honest personality 🙂
I listened to this earlier, and was quite perplexed. Not because of Ravi, but those who doubted their trust in Christ because of him. It sounds like their trust was in Ravi, not in Christ. I had to come back and address this tragic situation.
I wasn't a follower of Ravi; felt no need for his particular ministry, but some friends went down to a church he was speaking at, so I tagged along.
Ravi was very animated as he shared his message, but I got nothing from it. I knew the Lord wasn't there, but didn't understand why.
Months later I mentioned that to a friend who was there, and she felt the same way - the Lord was not there.
So when this sexual abuse surfaced it wasn't a deep shock; just a sadness, and perplexity as to how someone can claim to serve God and live in such evil.
In May 1975 the Lord Jesus came into my room. No, I didn't see Him; but I knew exactly Who He was. I wasn't religious at all, but I knew.
He told me to get a Bible and I would find Him there. No, I didn't hear a voice; I didn't see Him or hear Him. But Who He was, and what He said was as clear as the noonday sun.
So I went out immediately and found a Bible. For the last 48 years He has revealed Himself to me through His Spirit in His Word. This has totally transformed my life.
That's why what you said made no sense to me. I didn't need apologetics to explain Jesus to me. He was quite able to do that on His own.
I'm not saying it isn't helpful or needful. The church is in great apostasy now, as prophecy said would take place at the end of days.
That's where apologetics are desperately needed. But not the kind Ravi was teaching.
When cults are taking over churches, God's Word must be used in defense of the Truth; and exposing the false teachers.
Ravi didn't do this. He didn't scrutinize false teachings under the Light of Scripture; at least from anything I heard.
I was really saddened when you said people's faith was shaken because of this sex scandal. No doubt it would upset people, but why would that put their faith at risk???
I hope those who feel that way will look a bit deeper into their soul and examine whether they truly know Jesus or not.
Having a relationship with Him isn't just knowing the facts about Him. Even the demons know the facts. There has to be a personal relationship with Him ♡ a 'knowing' that goes much deeper - into the depths of our soul.
True faith must be put to the test. But it can't be lost because it's sustained by the Spirit of God who has sealed His own for the day of redemption.
Thank you for your faithfulness to Lord Jesus ❤
@hzjc9680 🩵
All thanks belong to God, dear one. His faithfulness is our daily Strength and Defense. 📖🥹
Both are respectful and honest intellectually bright. Thank God for his tenacity in exposing Ravi’s shame.
You can know all about Jesus via the mind but you cannot know Him by the mind . That’s why a child can lead you. You receive the spiritual things by faith. You looked for the experience to confirm your mind / but the experience comes through faith.
That’s what happened to me. All my Christianity was in my head but I decided to believe it, although I hadn’t experienced anything. A little while after I decided to believe that the spiritual realm was indeed mine if I walked with Jesus. Then I began to experience Him.
There is still plenty of room for your intellect in the spiritual realm - God Bless
He was never born again but while he is alive perhaps God will save him . Let’s pray for him.
Amen, Wanda.
What god, and how do you know of it?
@@chikkipop the Triune God, of course - the one described in the most heavily documented and consistent piece of historical literature of all time. Random guesses about spirituality - like atheism - seem like a mindless stretch of the imagination. 😁
@@KristiLEvans1 *"the one described in the most heavily documented and consistent piece of historical literature of all time"* So you trust the ancient writings of men, from a period when superstition and ignorance were far greater than they are now?! Please offer any *evidence* for your "triune god" that doesn't involve believing what *people* wrote thousands of years ago. *Consistency* of a story does not say anything about whether or not it is true.
*"Random guesses about spirituality - like atheism - seem like a mindless stretch of the imagination."* There is nothing "random" about observing the natural world and asking where evidence for a god comes from. If the only thing you can do is refer to an old book which attempted to codify morality by placing its origins in an invisible magical father figure, you have nothing. So again, my questions:
What god, and how do you know of it?
@@chikkipop I'm afraid you're using the wrong language Dennis. Every response has to be referenced through the bible otherwise your message will not be understood. Your original and independent thinking is considered arrogant and holds no value for this audience. Try quoting a few passages of scripture and biblical references.
yes Mr Bauhmann i understand your point and I am ashamed how my judgement of character of Ravi failed. I thought I am great in judging people and I thought Ravi was almost an angel. He was a great speaker and he was extremely gifted in teaching, preaching and convincing people. this gift became his curse. I think we chritians felt we had to defend Ravi as if we would defend Christ (God doesnt need our defense btw). I am so sorry. but I now realise once more... i follow Jesus not Ravi or any other preacher. Ravis books are still worth to be read.... they brought me clsoer to God
Trash the books in honor of the damaged victims. There are much better authors- and holier ones. Have nothing to do with the unfrutitful works of darkness but rather expose them!
Ravi zacharias is a human being, not God. Let the word of God, the bible be your foundation not Ravi's stylish words which he preached.
Just focus on Jesus Christ who is the true living God, the only one who lived in this world without sin.
I think the big mistake this man is making and most of us makes is we look at people and inside ourselves. Everyone has doubts at times and try to answer them by intelligence. This guy is very taken with himself. Jesus waits on us to look TO Him. Find any human other than Jesus who lives without sin. Good luck. Let's be kind to each other and forgive each other.
Thanks both for this interview. Much valued.
"We're happy in our bubble and let's just stay there" - Steve Baughman
Indeed all of us Christians or non- Christians should not be like that
I've read that the investigation revealed that in 2012, in Singapore, a local RZIM staff member informed his leadership that he observed Ravi in a hotel lobby area exhibiting compromised body language with a female who was clearly not his wife or one of his daughters -- including their proceeding to a hotel room..... For his courage this staff person was scoriated, spurned, and shunned.
Then fired. 2008
Do you know the name of that staff member?
great interview btw. both spoke with respect ! yes i believe in calling out public sin!
I hope that you will know the truth. My story is similar. The issue is an example of human nature. The deliberate blindness and coverup at RZIM are paralleled in corporate organizations. I have worked for years for a company that loudly proclaimed a zero tolerance bullying and sexual harassment. Well when HR was made aware and a meeting held we were told to grow thicker skin. The harassment continued and 2 employees documented in writing harassment allegations. Now interviews were held and meetings upper management. The out come? We’re told we have no where else for one manager and the other was given a lateral position in the same office. Upper management just covered it up. Sexual harassment allegations and other harassment is just ignored. We will pretend it never happened. God bless my fellow truth seeker
The quote around 40mins about caring about each other above adherence to laws was so good! 😊
Especially for the blindness!
Forgive me steve and your atheist friends. I am guilty of tribalism. Your thoughts have sent me to my knees. Wonderful interview
Ed Bare
We don't want people on their knees; we want them thinking for themselves and not being so gullible.
I listened to this whole shpeel and I agree with much that was said. I also was smitten with Ravi and 1st came across him via an Oxford debate I stumbled upon with one of the great atheists, I just don't remember which one. I believe the debate question was "Do we still need God?"
Anyhow I was pleased enough to listen to Ravi from time to time. I never regard education alone, and sometimes not at all, as valuable concerning spiritual leaders, and for that matter, not even secular philosopher's.
I did however, some years ago, determine to listen to Ravi more often. It came to be that I sensed that the Lord did not want me to continue to do so. I reckoned his apologetic style messages were not edifying for my personal walk with the Lord. I was happy enough that Ravi was out there reaching intellectual lost souls.
With all this in mind, I find it no small matter that if indeed there was evidence of Ravi's misinformation concerning his credentials, that there was no Nathan figure in his life.
The Truth is spiritual, not philosophical. No one comes to the Truth except by the Spirit. The meek shall inherit the earth and God will not reject a humble plea. Oh and I love that "He will not lose one of His own". If you are a truth seeker, remember "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom". Just think of a good parent and as a child care about the consequence.
Just to be clear, Ravi never debated anyone. Not in any formal setting. He refused to do so.
@@friendlybanjoatheist5464 well he may not have continued or it was a 1 time event but I seen it with my own eyes and it was the 1st time I was exposed to Ravi.
@@bobbiescales3949 Bobbie. I’m very interested in pursuing this. Can you give me all the details you remember? When was the debate? Were you there or did you watch it online? Was it UA-cam? Which organization sponsored it? Thanks.
@@bobbiescales3949 OK, Bobbie. Please don't disappear. I have done as much research as I can and cannot find any indication that Ravi ever debated anyone in a formal head-to-head format. Because of what you say I contacted a colleague of Ravi's at Oxford who worked with RZIM and knew Ravi;'s Oxford work since around 2006. He says he knows of no such debate and he thinks you have mistaken Ravi for someone else. I am inclined to agree. Ravi did NOT do debates.
If you care to provide some more info I will pursue it. But please think carefully before you send me on another wild goose chase.
Thx,
sb
I’m a full on believer in Jesus and have experienced the power of God in untold ways that I would never expect and I believe Atheism primarily exist because of how “Christian’s” like Ravi act which Ravi was definitely no Christian.. I’m so sorry for how Christian’s have treated Steve! I beg your forgiveness and I thank you fervently for you exposing this hypocrisy and holding us believing people accountable for our hypocrisy!!! I’m praying that God shows you the enemy and his lying whispers and that you can trust God is real because I wish I could tell you my story which almost proves His existence and power! God bless you MR.STEVE
A brilliant, and important conversation.
For both sides!
According to research, Victim Blaming and judgments according to the Just World bias mainly take place in the church. I experienced it myself, when I screamed for help in my church because of a marriage full of (paedophile) violence. I wasn't allowed to judge and was removed from their midst.
Shame sorry for that experience. I hope you got help and yes you are 100% right about the church's complacency and victim blaming
"Truth above the Tribe" confirms something I still feel after 75 years "with Christ," about the tribe...cynical because so much of the evangelical culture seems very human, but because Jesus was a thoroughgoing supernaturalist. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna but Steve, as you had youthful, real "born again" experiences, He invaded your life, and is still--unseen, supernaturally--there. The kindness, truth-valuing humility that comes across in this interview, makes me sense we're cosmic siblings. You know, "once saved, always saved." I won't get silly and sign off "your sister in Christ..." But that comfort with you is pretty real.
Praying still, that this precious man will hear God's voice, authentically...
What a heart breaking, devastating revelation. Personally, I am shocked. Be sure your sins will find you out the Bible says.
Steve is more truthful than a lot of christians
Brilliant interview. Thanks both.
31:20 - 31:50 I'm actually impressed that this guy knows this more than my deluded self at some point in the past, and he's an atheist..... I used to put people who lead Bible study sessions weekly and involved in church matters on a pedestal. And I would attack those who speak against them.
Looking back, I'm glad God stopped me by shedding lights on the matter.
Heartbreaking - we have hearts that will serve ourselves first ♥️
Thank you for your sharing this truthful exposition of this Ravi Zachariah guy!
Reminds me of 2 Peter 2 verses 1 and 2. Because of this false teacher Ravi, the way of truth was blasphemed. So sad.
Thank you both for valuing transparency.
I have attempted to confront people who were doing things that are wrong. It is always very stressful. The truth can be so horrible and people can't handle it. Often people are very angry and hurt by me. There is an awful narcist tendency in some pastoral leaders who are successful. The big lie is a horrific reality. It is particularly awkward when I realize how mediocre I am. Who am I to point out someone else. This further detail here about him pretending and people covering for him. It is affirming in a horrible way. It is impossible to believe that someone can be so immoral and no one knew about it. The Biblical truth and psychological truth is if you are a compulsive immoral person in one area it HAS to spread to other areas. Thanks for sharing. Steve you seem to be a genuine person. I don't sense bitterness or vitriol.
Steve needs to desperately & diligently expose ARC Churches & bring them down as he exposed Ravi Z & his double life
Haven't listened to this yet but will soon....stumbled across this looking for his music. Part time banjo player?? 😂😂 More like one of the best claw players in the world..love this guy 🙏🙏
I remeber this guy from years ago exposing Ravi's credentials. To add to that red flag was a poem he often used in ministry was that attributed wrong. I wrote RZIM about it and they knew it was misattributed. I wondered if Ravi had know it but knew it but misattributed it because it had a greater effect used that way. I also saw how much weight he put on education. it was too much. Those without degrees seemed to be outside of his interest.
At about 28mins I was listening and a popular Christian radio station started playing a song re trusting in jesus!!!
Jesus what a friend of sinners.
I appreciated this... this is a beginning. Please do more.
It plagues many "churchfamilies" that the image of their own ministry/church is more important than the truth or individuals without much power/say. It can also be ppl defending their money/power/position/status etc. When correct dogma/image etc is more important than doing as Christ did, succeding more important than serving, admiring success more than simple charitable humble life, christlike life withers.
Loyalty to the tribe not the truth. Profound.
Dear Steve, I am so sorry that people who identify as the Christian community attacked you. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH and you were acting more in line with the God of TRUTH then the club christians. I believe that the God of righteousness and Justice is standing in your corner. I know you don't believe but trust me on this, God will side with an atheist faster then he will a prideful and misguided believer.
To worship God is to worship Him in spirit and truth. Steven is doing exactly Gods will and that make him follower of The Truth, Word of God manifest in flesh. He is a Christian more than 90% who claim to be the same. God bless you Steven.
I want to assure Steve that the Christian church has learned a great deal as a result of what has happened with Ravi Zacharias. I'd go so far as to say that if another person who is also called Ravi Zacharias becomes a famous apologist and travels around the world with a masseur we will be onto them like a shot.
@@TruthIsAsOldAsYah Abuse is the result of the inability of ordinary Christians to make spiritual judgements. To stop it happening we don't focus on abuse but on why we didn't have the ability to see the signs of it before it happened and act. We are talking about the need for wisdom and the Bible says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Yet when you listen to the post abuse analysis would you expect anyone to be talking about the fact that the primary failing was that the environment in which abuse occurred was one without appropriate fear of God?
I need to ask Steve Baughman one question. Did you ever get the idea that God is real and personal just like the Bible portrays Him but only to certain people? What I mean is that God is keeping many of us OUT of that place of Blessed Assurance and objects of His personal care that so many others enjoy? I felt at a period of time deeply that God Is personal and cares for me just like any parent might care for a beloved child even more so. Then there was one time I sinned and that sense evaporated in such a way that I sense the presence of God approximately just like any atheist. Having had that experience though I believe God is real somewhere but He appears to have lost that personal love for me and like has abandoned me to the cruel impersonal forces of the universe in general. However I have not lost the sense that God loves me altogether and the universe is just a cruel impersonal place but I feel His presence very weekly now and keep on searching for it. It is sort of like God is keeping me at arms length or is hiding Himself for what reason I cannot understand.
I tried exposing another place from the inside... I recommend leaving first and then exposing when dealing with a very powerful institution/person...
I would say betrayal blindness is like having an interview with Ravi and letting him charm you so you don’t ask tougher questions, right? Not trying to criticize Steve because what he did was awesome, but we all struggle with different variations of not knowing when to take the stand vehemently and then waiting to see deeper “proof” - so hard! I would say it requires prayer and judgment, but never ignore wrong on its face!
Mr. Baughman is absolutely right about the difference between doing good and making people feel good. If Jesus was around today he would make his listeners feel deeply disturbed, not reassured and on-fire. Rather like the Johnny Cash song “Hurt.”
Ravi also bragged on his Hindu priesthood heritage as if it were a badge of honor. That really made no sense to me. I think Ravi probably started out with having a genuine experience with God after he tried to commit suicide as a 17 year old. His story was compelling, and then that story became a business for him. Not every American Christian is into tribalism. So I hope you realize there are more independent Christian thinkers out there then you think. I wouldn’t trust Steve Bachmans prideful judgement on John Newton. Me thinks he makes some assumptions. John Newton knew he had made an evil choice. When he repented God showed him the error of his ways. Repentance is what opens our eyes to truth.
Isn't "independent Christian thinker" a contradiction in terms.
Most religions are firmly dogmatic.
The independent thinkers start new denominations, which to me points to a failure of god to communicate his truth.
The first time I saw and heard Ravi I new he was not réal, then when I heard him critisize Richard Dawkins confirmed me of his hypocracy. Be sure he is not the only one In the Christian faith world. Ravi illustrated the fragiliity of the Christian congrégation commening with William. Lane Craig et al!
I am disturbed to see Christian apologetics get such a bad rap in this interview. Our Christian faith is a reasonable faith, able to hold its own in the public square and we are called to be able always to give a reason or a defence of it. The simply “warm fuzzies” of our faith is exactly what apologetics is meant to confront and correct so that our only defence is not only that “he lives within my heart”. The wrong doing on so many fronts of RZ and those who enabled him which Mr. Baughman was right to call out does not negate or disparage the discipline of apologetics. I know I am very thankful for the many Christian apologists who over the years have ministered to my faith and enhanced my understanding of Biblical truth. However, I do know that apologetics can only go so far. There is not an answer for everything and I must be content not to understand or be able to defend absolutely everything at least in this world.
*"Our Christian faith is a reasonable faith, able to hold its own in the public square and we are called to be able always to give a reason or a defence of it."* The first part of that isn't true, and neither is the second. Most of you, when challenged, find one reason or another to bail out of such confrontations. I don't know who you think "calls" you to defend your beliefs, but very few of you do it, and none of you is the least bit persuasive. Prove me wrong. "Biblical truth" isn't a thing, and no one should have "faith".
Good examples of defending faith was to learn thru the life of the Apostols they boldly manifested Jesus by risking themselves. They were persecuted for Christ's Sake. As the words said the blood of the martyr is the seed of the Gospels. Life on earth is temporary but life abide in Christ is permanent. We can defend our faith as long as we carry the image of God in us, not our own image.
@@maitisanw.j7453 Nothing you have just said above is in any way a defense of your belief! You are simply spouting religious nonsense you have been taught. You can't defend "faith" when you *assume* one of the most important things we question about it. Please start by explaining how you know there is a "god" and after that we can get into how it communicates and why you think our temporary life somehow gets extended. Until you can do this, your beliefs will be considered as just like any other superstition which is believed because it is preferred rather than because it is an accurate account of reality.
@@chikkipop where does morality existed? Or how evil existed? Any answer?
@@maitisanw.j7453 Morality evolved! It is a function of the brains of living creatures. Evil exists as a *behavior* of humans!
If you think morality is something handed down to you from some supernatural being, explain why you feel you should obey this being. What if you disagreed with it? There is no evidence for this being, of course, and your problem with morality is not evidence of anything except this: it is evidence that you don't understand how morality arose in living creatures.
Raised mainstream Methodist in the 1960s (ie., as a “mere Christian”) and having encountered cults and cult-like groups starting in my teens, and having worked for over a decade for Christian publishers, I have always been leery of Evangelical celebrity Christianity. I’m sad to say I’m not shocked in the least by all the wolves in sheep’s clothing in that camp who have been exposed these last several years. It was just a matter of time….Jesus said we cannot serve both God and money, but too many seem to have been taught to pay more attention to the “Romans Road” of the Evangelical PSA gospel and not enough to the words of our Savior in the Gospels-especially to the Rich Young Ruler and in His teaching in the Parable of the Last Judgment in Mathew 25.
After forty years struggling to know God better in the Evangelical camp, I came to the place that the reductionist Calvinist-leaning PSA gospel that predominates there no longer made sense to me. It would have taken more faith for me to disbelieve the main claims of the Gospels after listening to apologists like C.S. Lewis and Josh McDowell than to believe, but I no longer fit theologically in the Evangelical camp. Catholicism was a non-starter because it too had a juridical-leaning account of our salvation in Christ and I never found the Papal claims convincing. After prayer and seeking, I discovered and embraced Eastern Orthodox Christian faith. We have our own wolvish problems, but in our 2,000-year old spiritual tradition, we also have the antidotes to that and some of the other problems that have plagued Western Christendom. I have never looked back. Glory to God!
Thank you, for your bravery. Even though this was recorded 3 years ago. The mentality is still going on, as far as calling these pastors out for wrong doing.