How Historically Accurate Is the Dancing in Emma? (2009 & 2020)
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- Опубліковано 8 жов 2024
- Our review of the historical accuracy of dancing in the 2009 and 2020 versions of Emma.
What's a slip jig, and why is it (very) different from a waltz? How accurate are the dances in the new movie version? Find out in part 2 of our 2-part series on Emma!
Here is the dance link I mention in my video, For more info on Regency dance steps: www.regencydan...
(Apparently UA-cam won't let me do external links until my channel grows more.)
I love watching people who are passionate about a certain topic dive deep into in regards to historical films. I learned a lot about dance and historical dance with your videos, so thank you!
Yeah, my main beef with the 2009 version is Emma's hair is so wrong I can't unsee it. They made it appeal to modern sensibilities but no Regency lady of this time would be without her side curls and no wispy tendrils would be allowed. I could see wispy tendrils after a bunch of exertion in *one* scene, but it's a constant here. You said that Emma was too earnest and likable and the whole point of Emma is that she is snobby and not entirely likable. Also, all that overdone facial expression and wild body movement would be not acceptable for a lady. I didn't know about the accuracy of the dances, which is why I'm here. Thanks for filling us in!
Finally somebody agrees with me. The actress's eyes are constantly popping out of her head. So much overexpressing.
This is tangentially connected to the waistcoat, but I love tracking specific costume pieces through many period dramas.
Really enjoyed this video, thank you! I know nothing about regency dance but I felt the same about the non-dancy things if that makes sense. I actually loved Emma 2020 because even though it's not a faithful adaptation in lots of ways, I did feel like it really captured the sarcasm/snark of the novel (almost at well as 1995 P&P which is my other favourite adaptation) even though lots of the characters were different. It also had Emma being a terrible person, which is great to see. The extravagant clothes and piles of fancy food that were around them at all times really added to the class critique that's always underlying in Austen and especially Emma. Like the Enclosure acts are happening at the time and Mr Knightly is frequently explicitly referred to having some sort of land disputes and I felt like Emma did a pretty good job of showing the gap between rich and poor
Just watched EMMA 2020 and started looking for this vid immediately.
For the 2020 romantic dance between Emma and Mr Knightley, I don't get the feeling the choreographer had any thoughts about stately high society motivating their choices. I feel that the choreography is entirely designed with the idea of playing up the romantic interaction for Emma and Knightley's burgeoning romantic attraction. The dance is designed for the characters to have numerous moments of staring deeply into one another's eyes, near touches, lingering touches, etc. which the camera lingers upon.
just saw this video and i agree with you. they start off smiling rather friendly and as if it’s a bit funny that they’re even dancing and then you see them both go ’oh shit’
In the third dance of the 2009 version, we are not supposed to be listening to the Highbury band, but to dubbed music with no background noise. This is meant to give a more detached, dreamlike quality in which we concentrate on Emma and Mr Knightley as a couple. The fact that it is not real Regency music, but a version of the theme tune of the show is deliberate, not a mistake.
This is what I was about to say. This is soundtrack music, not dance music.
I think I heard that Johnny Lee Miller in the 2009 adaptation hated having the collar up, and got that pushed through...
just saw Emma 2020 a couple of days ago and was really eager to hear what you had to say about the dancing. i myself know very, very little of both dancing and clothing in any historical period, to be honest. but after your videos on P&P i was able to vaaaaguely register something about the formation and the start of the dances in "Emma". also, having seen a bit on 1830 hairstyles right before seeing the movie, i managed to recognize Mrs. Elton's hair as anachronistic, but figured it was their way of saying she was this fashion-forward snobby person))
The choreographer is Micheal Nunn of the Royal Ballet. Obviously, this is someone experienced in performance dance with no clue about social dance. They are not the same.
Absolutely! And historical English Country Dance is its own highly complex field of research!
Enjoy your dance slipper rating system. I learn so much in every video. Thanks!
Hi, I'm learning a lot which I really love. Thank you.I'll watch more tomorrow as it is getting very late. Yours, Ann
I'm glad you noticed Mr Knightly's turned down waistcoat and collar in Emma 2008, as this really irritated me. I think it is the choice of the actor as he admits to not liking fitted clothing, preferring a more casual style. We don't know if men never wore their clothing in this way, but I have never seen a portrait showing this and I don't see Knightley as a casual, sloppy character. Now as to the absurdly stiff collars in Emma (2020) don't get me going on that!
I totally agree. I can't say it was never done, but it seems unlikely. And yeah, Knightley struck me as humble but not sloppy that way. It's too bad because I like Jonny Lee Miller as Knightley, and I love his chemistry with Romola Garai.
And yes, the collars were definitely too stiff in the 2020 film. Yikes! The costumes were lovely in that, but they definitely weren't perfect. I was baffled by the ladies wearing ruff collars with no chemisette and also Emma wearing a knit fichu in royal blue and yellow. I've never seen a lady of her rank wearing a knit fichu, and I've never seen lace-knitting from that era in anything other than white (plus from what I understand, which admittedly could be wrong, lace-knitting was considered very working-class).
Also I hate Emma's ballgown from the 2009 version. It looks like a 2000s prom gown, and nobody would have been wearing a dupioni silk that was that slubby in the Regency! That's exactly the kind of fabric we try to avoid for historical reenactment!
I don’t know about this one. My understanding of Knightley is that he vexes many people by not upholding minute standards, being slightly less fussy about details, while still being quite proper about genuinely important things. I think it works for him to choose comfort.
I don't know a thing about dancing, historical or otherwise, but I'm thoroughly enjoying these reviews.
The waist coat Mr Knightly is wearing, is the Made from the Same Fabric Mr Bennett is wearing. Left over fabric or up cycled/repurposed.
I am listening to you being agitated about something I never noticed nor could pinpoint even after watching your video. I guess this is how my parents feel if I start complaining about the historical inaccuracies in things I do know. I love that I am watching the whole thing and all I can sum it up afterwards is - there is something wrong with the way they dance. And I feel so sorry for the choreographer who did this and the actors who learned it.
I don’t think the tune used for the big romantic dance was supposed to be the tune that was happening in the hall. It’s the Emma theme, an overlay in my view.
I thought so too at first, but I read a few interviews with the composer where he talked about that being a special arrangement of the theme "as a waltz" for the dance scene, and that's why I had a cow about it, since it's clearly not a waltz. I looked at the sheet music myself talked with musical experts about this, and they told me that the composer clearly didn't understand that not everything written in 3/4 time is a waltz. I'm fine with a montage over dancing (They do it in the 1995. P&P), but that's not what's going on. The dancers are dancing in time to this music, and even though the orchestration changes, I think that it's meant to be diagetic to signify Emma's changing feelings. As I said, I would have been fine if it had just been them playing the theme, but the fact that the dancers are clearly dancing to it and that the composer called it a waltz is what vexed and dismayed me.
I really admire your expertise. Was there anything special about the slippers they went dancing in? Any kind of proto ballet slipper or something like that? Or a shoe different from walking around the garden?
Yes, they did wear proto-ballet shoes for dancing, complete with lacing. They were made of cloth instead of leather, though, and they were so flimsy that it wasn't unusual to wear through them in a single night!
@@teawithcassiane8431 so it wasn't such a big deal that the 12 dancing princesses were right to their shoes every night! And modern ballerinas continue to do the same thing, despite layers of glue!
I believe it! Twice I have ruined pairs of dance shoes from 8+ hours of dancing in a day! My ballroom shoes get double- thick soles when I take them to the cobbler!
Timestamps:
0:48 BBC's Emma (2009)
3:06 onto the dances
8:49 overall score
9:50 Emma (2020)
11:18 the dances
16:05 overall take
17:35 outro
Not really this channel's demesne, but the church scenes in the 2020 Emma are not accurate either. Mr. Elton's vestments are straight out of a modern church supply catalogue. He would have worn either a very full, white garment (a surplice) over his street clothes with a black preaching scarf and academic hood, or a black academic gown with linen bands around his neck (depending his his theological convictions). The painted wood work is accurate (in that the scenes were shot in a well preserved regency church), but they wouldn't light candles if it wasn't dark (it's was a theological thing), and there would absolutely not be a cross above the communion table. Mr. Elton would lead the service from the pulpit, not standing in the aisle. There would absolutely not be a procession into the church--they would all be sitting in their seats and would just start the service at the appointed hour.
Wow! Thanks for sharing your expertise. I love hearing stuff like this! I think the only thing I already knew was about the pulpit, which I've seen in other BBC period dramas. Incidentally, I did my masters in theology with a particular interest in liturgics, and although I only studied my own church (Greek Orthodox), I LOVE hearing about other churches' rituals!
Ironically, I have heard from a dress historian that the upturned high collar was reserved for young men at the time of Austen, of which Mr. Knightley is not. Frank yes. But not Mr. Knightley. It was a fad. The music in the 2009 Knightley and Emma dance is the theme music for the series. I know you disagree based on Sims' explanation, but it really comes across as meant to focus on them apart from the room, not to replicate a song of the era. The song has piano in it, which the Regency "dance band" does not have. When I first saw this scene, I understood that this song was for them only (their theme song) and that what was being played in the room was different than what we are hearing (although in 6/8 time). I agree with you on the Emma 2020 nosebleed - it infuriated me! RUINED IT. I would have thrown a rock at the TV if it could suffer no damage! LOL. It felt very much like a contrived way to say "see, we are an Austen comedy!". Thank you for sharing your expertise! Very enjoyable video.
The tune for the first dance is "Branle des Chevaux" from Thoinot Arbeau's Orchésographie (1589).
I never saw this movie. I've only ever seen one production of Emma, and don't know when it was made, but it was British, probably oldish. The BBC uses the same costume pieces in various productions. They might take a dress from a production of Sense and Sensibility and use it years later in Emma. You probably already knew that. This thing you say about the more lively dances being true to the period is a shock to me. I thought that indeed all that slow back and forth was because they're such fancy people that they'd never bounce.
Emma's pink spencer in the second film is a work of art. There are beautiful bits of costume in that one. I say the reason Mrs. Elton shimmies is that she is a vain hussy. I am grieved that Amazon won't let me rent this one.
Well, there are 5 versions of Emma, so the oldish one you saw was probably the oldest, 1972, and a bit of a joke in many people's opinion. Or it could habe been either of the 1996 versions. One had an old, mature and gruff Knightley, with a dark-haired Emma, and the other starred Gwyneth Paltrow and a ridiculous, red-haired, chatty, fat Harriet.
I studied in a Catholic school where we were required to learn how to Waltz for our Junior-Senior prom. The music they used in the 2009 version was just so not what I remember dancing to. And as much as I love the 2020 version, most of the figures kind of look awkward too, and not also what I remember learning from school. I wish I remember our Waltz dances more clearly. What I do remember was that I was paired with one of the tallest guys in our class. He was 5' 10" at the time and was still growing and I was only 5'2" so, haha, you can imagine our challenges, but we had a good time out of it. :) He's also a good friend so we just had fun. And we do the "hey!" and other sound effects during rehearsals - - we did so we can liven each other up because rehearsals would take Hours. And we rehearsed for two months, I think? 3 hours of rehearsals every day for two months. Maybe I'll take up Waltz again just for fun. I did enjoy learning them. :)
In the 2020 version, didn't Emma and Frank Churchill do a very brief mock dance on the street, dancing around furniture? Too brief to call it a proper dance but I wonder if you had any thoughts on that scene?
Honest question: I see so much general criticism of Emma (2009) for anachronisms and modernity, mostly citing 'this was not done for people at the time - but how much of what was considered allowable vs what actually happened in a small community like this, do we actually know? I like that you included the note about the shouting - what happened vs what was considered proper.
Can we also talk about how uncanny valley the way they hold their arms in the 2020 version. Its like they told the ladies to be a Barbie. It just wierds me out lol
I am new to your videos-today is the first day. Have you ever noticed the Anna Karenina with Kiera, what's her face doing an odd dance at the ball where they aren't touching, but keep their arms on their bodies? I was wondering if that was a dance, or made up
and why is Emma the only female in the line to curtsy in the romantic dance scene??
Well, nobody curtseys or bows in the whole film as much as they did in thr Regency era.
I thought the nosebleed was heinous. Totally ruined the scene for me.
Her headpiece thing at 10:15 ish does look out of place but isn't it meant to?
Totally feeling you on the walls not actually being a waltz. I play music for classical ballet classes and there is such a huge difference among all kinds of music that all can be in 3-4, but are not really waltzes also, the little toe pointing step they do? in ballet that's called polonaise they are very obviously NOT dancing to a polonaise!
*waltz, not walk.
Wow! Thank you so much for telling me what the name of that step is! I've been wondering. I only know a dozen or ballet steps that were used in English country dance in the 17th-19th centuries, which isn't a huge vocabulary of steps, so I really appreciate it. I'm doing a comment response video in a few weeks, and I would like to thank you formally in that.
Also it's nice to talk to someone who knows about whether or not music is danceable. Most of the comments have been along the lines of "who cares!?"
Hard disagree i think introducing romantic chemistry early ruined the relationship structure.
Also i believe the butt warming scene is based on an extant cartoon from the period so i actually loved that. But the nosebleed can get out
This! "If I loved you less I could talk about it more" = weird nosebleed? ick no. Also I just could not ignore the way Emma's hair looked like it was styled by Pot Noodle.
@@lucie4185 Emma's hair in 2020 was absolutely accurate and more historically faithful than any of the 4 versions of Emma before it. Don't go on about how YOU didn't prefer it, you were watching a portrayal of Austen.
Loved this!
That nosebleed. WHY on earth did they think that was a good idea? A scene can be romantic and funny at the same time. The nosebleed just took the romance away and replaced it with funny (though I just cringed at it)
I personally really like that, it exaggerates the ironic and satirical tone of the novel and is a interesting way to show that Emma now is loosing all the control she always has, also they compensate that with de real romantic scene with the kiss before the wed 😳
Accurate or not, that dance between Emma and Mr Knightly in the 2009 version is the best ever. It's so romantic Johnny Lee Miller is the perfect Mr. Knightly, and Romala is perfect opposite him.
Interesting pronunciation of “waistcoat”.
Absolutely hate that nose bleed ! There is no nose bleed whatsoever in the book! What an earth were they thinking??
Now I want to know if you actually like rice. :)
I really appreciate all the work you put into this. I've seen all these movies and enjoyed most. As for Emma 20/20, I pretty much hated it. Mr. Knightley is my favorite Austin hero, but his Bare Bum, his age which was probably 10 years too young and his 21st century messy hair!!!! It took me 5 tries to get through this movie and I've already given it to Goodwill. Shame on the person who thought nudity was appropriate in a Jane Austen movie.
Fun fact, the actor who plays Mr Knightley has the same age as the character in the book 🙃
@@Tasmanianval messy hair also accurate, looking absolutely nothing like the actor playing his brother though was wierd, it almost looked like they were in 2 different films when standing next to each other.
@@lucie4185 yes, which I think it was really interesting, it shows that even if they have the same social status they're completely different personalities and use the clothes in their own style. Also in the book Mr. Knightley is described a kind person and (if am not wrong) look a little bit younger than his age.
Shame on the person who doesn't bother to check their facts before pronouncing Johnny Flynn as '10 years too young' when he is in fact 37, same age as Knightley.
Your waltz-slip jig dissertation is splitting hairs with a vengence. Dancers forever have divided the rhythm of the music to a beat that fits the steps they want to do. Lots of your assertions seem way to rigid.
Oh my gosh. Emma 2020 really had so so SO much going for it, but I can't with the nekkedness and the inorganic nosebleed at the wrong moment (which was very distracting and somehow felt like the director was trying to allude to something else). I much preferred the comedy of Romola Garai running into Jonny Lee Miller's study in hysterics wailing, "I can't marry you!" while he looks up shocked. 2020 has some weird character beats in my opinion... Like you said, they establish the romantic chemistry so early. I think that leads to me being confused about how Emma ends up in her problem. I actually really like the 2009 version, after all is said and done, if only because of its moderation.