Thank you for the kind words. Even all these years later, I rank "Heroes of Defiance" and "Citadel of Light" among the best items I've done. (One of your viewers called your video to my attention, and I'm glad he did!)
Thank you for all the wonderful words you’ve written! A whole lot of incredible gaming memories are tied up in this game for me, an important part of my hobby journey so I’m very grateful to you!
I unfortunately didn't find out about Citadel of Light and Palanthas, until about 6 months ago, but I have everything else (except some of the AD&D/SAGA books and deck adventures). Thank you for your work on the line. I loved running the game and am looking to run it again soon 🤘
Thank you! I think a lot of the tough circumstances get overlooked when discussing the game. Like any other game it’s not perfect, but I think it did a lot of innovative things really well, and was clearly made with passion.
Hi Jordan. Wonderful video that showcases the positives about the SAGA system. I felt, part of the SAGA problem was the boxed sets, themselves. They get crushed over time. Even the box in your video looks frayed. Book sellers didn't know where to place these on the shelf. They didn't know to cross into the novel section and place it with their shared worlds shelves with Dragonlance books, or place these smaller boxes with the game section, without the Dragonlance brand support. Also, you missed the fact that "cards + role > Narrator-assigned difficulty" is exactly the D&D3.x's "d20 + skill > DC" Parts of SAGA evolved into D&D3.X game system. My theory: dual support of SAGA and AD&D2/D&D killed SAGA and TSR. It's the same blunder of splitting the fan base into buying different products. or split with different game settings. WotC learned this lesson in D&D3. Kill AD&D2. Make a huge supporting system with the open gaming license to get immediate fanbase adoption. License out Dragonlance to Margaret Weis Productions to support D&D3.5. Lastly, I'm a big collector of Dragonlance too. I have an extra copy of "The Duntollik Run." We should talk.
Thank you, I’m really glad you enjoyed it! Good point about SAGA’s role in the design of D&D3 - I think a lot of lessons from this and Alternity (a game I also plan to spend some time on) really laid the foundation for it and D20. Agree about the boxes in terms of the longevity and store placement (my boxes are looking mighty rough!), though they are lovely to look at! As far as splitting the fan base I think it was an interesting idea from TSR, trying to tap into that emerging story telling roleplay market, but it just didn’t appeal to them and instead seemed to cannibalise AD&D sales (where it sold at all!) You intrigue me with this talk of the Duntolik Run, that would be an amazing thing for me! You can find my email in the about section if you want to get in contact.
This is amazing. I never knew about 5th Age and this is all fresh to me! I love Dragonlance, it was one of my first encounters with D&D. The SAGA system seems very interesting too!
This is a really good video. AD&D2e players often have this nostalgia filter which makes it a harder pill to swallow; Weis and Hickman had left TSR by the time the AD&D2e boxed set in 92' had released; the gaming materials diverged wildly from Hickman and Weis original; Dragonlance books kept TSR afloat but Ad&D2e did not sell as well as people like to pretend.
Looking back it is wild to see how many troubles there really were at TSR in that era. It felt like AD&D was an unstoppable behemoth, but it was more precarious than it seemed. I really respect the team behind DL:5A trying to do something so different, even if it didn’t save TSR in the end either!
True we give 5th Age (not to be confused with 5eD&D) a harder time than it deserves; but despite that there are people who grew up with that Era and only have a rudimentary exposure to the original DL run. I did too. Coming from the 90s Tsr era with the comic books and novels Steve Winter and Mary Kirchoff ; Chris Avellone with Planescape. The Spelljammer companion Krynnspace. Etc. Not all DL 'Canon'
I don't imagine DL5A was ever going to do terribly well in the long term. Setting aside TSR's internal troubles, the SAGA era was inherently working uphill to make 5th Age work. Much of what longtime Dragonlance fans liked about the setting was abruptly strangled and removed. The magic, the adventure, the dragons, and the gods. The characters and the context in which they existed. While 5th Age was in the setting, it was so radically altered as to be functionally a new world. Where all the similarities or name-checking seemed, to a long-time fan, to be more a mockery than an organic continuation. Or at least, that's the impression a Dragonlance fan might get looking at the products. Moreover, revolutionary though story games were (the much-beloved World of Darkness is a testament to this), it's a big ask to expect AD&D players to jump into. Especially when the SAGA system was _replacing_ the game they were familiar with. If you liked the dice rolling, dungeon crawling, and deeply systemic AD&D, removing all that for a freeform narrative system that used cards was...difficult, to say the least. A good comparison here might be to the transition between Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Age of Sigmar. Regardless of AoS's quality, or lack thereof, it's no small thing to shift from a dense rank-and-flank wargame into a more streamlined skirmish style. That AoS came on the fallout of Warhammer's own deeply cataclysmic and unsatisfying setting change only cements the comparison further. In that light, I'm amazed any Dragonlance fans made the switch at all. Which becomes a real problem, as any long-running series relies on existing fans to keep it afloat (even if only so long as to cultivate more new fans). Those weren't already familiar with Dragonlance didn't necessarily have a reason to jump into this "SAGA" thing. AD&D players who didn't already run through Dragonlance adventures might have had _negative_ preconceptions of the series. "What, that setting where the DM talks the story at you, and railroads all your actions? And this is all that but MORE?!?" It's difficult to understate the degree to which 5th Age was kind of set up to fail. It had everything working against it, except its quality. And quality means nothing if no one wants to participate.
Totally agree, especially your second paragraph. If TSR wanted to try out a new diceless gaming system, they should have created a new world for it. Instead, they butchered Krynn into a mutated, misshapen mongrel, as if they were Dr. Frankenstein. Same thing happened with 4th edition D&D. Build a new world for it! Don't butcher up the Realms, removing just about everything the majority of fans liked.
Fantastic video! I had stopped reading Dragonlance with the end of the orignal companions main arc and was nearly done with D&D for awhile when this stuff was on the shelves. I've wondered about this game a few times through the years.
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I think it came out during a lull for a lot of people both in DL and general D&D terms, but it was perfectly timed for me! It’s one of those games that whilst not my all time favourite it has stayed with me ever since
I've been thinking about what an RPG using a deck of cards instead of dice would be like. Little did I know the SAGA system already exists. Thanks for covering it and your perspective, which is similar to my own. I'll be looking for a copy of it now
DL 5th age was a non-starter for me. I loved the novel but never wanted to play the modules or even in the DL setting so 5th age was nothing to me. I remember some people liking it, some people not liking it but I never even looked at it. Money was tight back then and I could not afford it anyways.
The Fifth Age box was the first game I ever DM’d for. I was coming from being a player in my 2E group. I wasn’t ready for the type of thinking on your feet the Saga system required as a narrator. Now I love games systems that put the narrative forward like Monster of the Week.
Great reminder of a underrated game. I never actually got a chance to play Fifth Age though I bought most of the rule books and enjoyed the background. I think - as both a Dragonlance fan and an (A)D&D fan I had mixed view of the system, but reading it back it genuinely seems both an elegant game and an exciting and unique period for Krynn. I think the Fate Deck was simultaneously a great strength and weakness - it was very characterful but keeping track of 82 (!) cards without losing any was a task far beyond the mental capabilities of teenage me and i suspect many others which makes it very difficult to play now. It doesn't help that so much gaming is done online on the likes of Roll20 or via forums though obviously that could not have been foreseen at the time.
Good points re the SAGA cards, they were such a strength and weakness at the same time! I do maintain that overall the system was a very elegant one for the type of epic & heroic stories they were aiming for. It just had a lot of baggage to carry at the same time!
Thank you for giving me a new look at a time period that i didn't enjoy of my favorite campaign setting. I wondered why they were hesitant to release new DragonLance stuff during 3rd edition. And now i know it's from the usual corporate mindset of "we tryed something really new that didn't work so now we think the whole thing doesn't and has never worked".
I’m glad I could share a little more context. It was definitely a bold effort by TSR there at the end, and probably an over correction by Wizards as a result!
Sorry for commenting so late but I have been living some crazy days recently. Its soo good to hear something different about D&D as most of the videos are soooo similar that I just stopped warching them, I would love to hear your taugths on "Al Quadim" or the 2e "Gazeteers" .
Thanks for giving it a watch and commenting even with the wild times (the UK Christmas run up has me all over the place at the moment!) There are definitely a few other DND settings/supplements I’m keen to find time to talk about - Al-Qadim is a great shout! I’d really like to dive into some of the stuff I never got a chance to play as well like Cities of Mystery. Must admit though, the next TSR title I’m planning to tackle is an equally bold attempt to move away from AD&D, but this time towards sci-fi, and it was one that didn’t last long either!
Very well-done review. I especially like the parts where you talk about how brilliant I was! In all honesty, working with people like Sue, Stan!, Skip, and Jean made it easy to look good. I can't speak to the drama behind the scenes with Margaret and Tracy butting heads with TSR management - I had no part in it. Most of my work up until I was handed the DL:5A project had been in the Ravenloft line - itself a very story-heavy setting. I've always been a big fan of story-telling RPGs back to my earliest days in the hobby (the late 1970s...sigh...I'm old). The chance to create a totally unique system as much by players as the narrator was a dream come true. Sadly, it was pretty obviously doomed from the start. I knew when I walked out of the boss' office with the assignment that it was neither going to win over Dragonlance fans nor AD&D players, so I just had fun with it. In all honesty, thank you for the very kind words.
This is fascinating, thank you for this. I really mean it when I say that this is a game that has stayed with me and means a lot, so thank you very much for writing it! Alternity was another big game for me, so I appreciate your work on that too. I’d love to hear more about your time at TSR, let me know if you’d be open to a chat!
Just wanted to thank you for some of the best games I've run, using the Fifth Age SAGA system. My players and I had a blast with it. My cards are practically in mint condition and I'm looking at running it again. Thank you, Sir 🤘
@@MarkGoldfine Thank you for your kind words. It's nice to know that the SAGA system found some fans who still remember and even play it. Please let me know how it goes when you run it!
Thanks for the effort. We have a blast playing something close to the SAGA cards in Malifaux. Absolutely no way 13 year old me would have touched diceless D&D which is our loss. Wish it could have been different. Thank you again :)
Another brilliant video, I’m slowly going to work my way through them all I’m sure. I only dabbled a little with D&D, and while I owned a couple of Dragonlance novels I never played them (still have a couple books on my shelf I think). I did however discover the novels around the time same time I did Heroquest and Warhammer 3rd Ed. Still super fond of them, but didn’t really read or play anything to do with Fifth Age. Looks really interesting though, I wonder if it was before it’s time.
Thanks! I think Fifth Age was definitely ahead of it’s time, and was a very bold attempt to utterly reinvent a much loved fantasy world. The more I think about it the more it was like the WFB/AoS change, though a lot less successful, at least financially speaking!
I enjoyed playing Fifth Age when my friend at the time introduced it to me. We were also playing 2nd Ed d&d as well as White Wolf tabletop, so I was into the narrative focus of Fifth Age, even though I enjoyed our 2nd Ed dungeon crawls as well. But my friend expressed constant disappointment whenever he'd be dealt a "stinky hand" of fate cards. Essentially, if he knew that in the next few scenes, he had a lousy selection of cards, he would lose interest and gain in frustration, especially if he'd draw yet another lousy card after an action attempt. Soon, he was attempting unnecessary or trivial tasks in order to cycle out low scoring cards and hold on to the "good ones" for important encounters. You could call it "powergaming" and that he was missing the point of a narrative focused RPG, and be right. But for someone like him, there is an admitted difference in knowing that unless you attempt easy, unnecessary tasks, you can expect to not be very heroic when it comes to randomized game elements in the next few scenes, whereas with a die, there is always the possibility of a "nat 20" to turn things around. For my part, I really enjoyed Fifth Age and tried to find comedic or "doomed heroic effort" ways to cinematically get through my "lousy cards", but I admit, it did happen that I made some attempts at things not too crucial or that were likely to fail, in order to conjure up some "good cards" from the deck.
Loving your content. I'm learning so much about the games and books from my childhood. I still have a pile of well loved Dragon Lance books. I had the original game books but the 5th age is new to me. Thanks for doing the work to bring this video to us
Thank you for watching and commenting! In the research I’ve found out so much stuff about these games I’ve loved all my life so I’m happy that people are getting something from it too!
I was very, very much not a fan of D&D (never was, still not, can't imagine I ever will be). But I'd read and loved the original DragonLance novels. In fact, they'd actually helped me get over some personal hurdles as a young reader & gain the confidence to go on to be a voracious reader as a teen & adult. So, in spite of my love of TTRPGs and the special place DragonLance had in my heart, I'd never played it. When Fifth Age came out, that almost changed. An acquaintance had picked it up and convinced me to give it a try. I liked what I saw and made a character, but the game fizzled before it began and I never ended up playing it at all. It's too bad, because I think they had a good idea with the Saga System, that might have really been something with a chance to develop a bit.
It sits in such an interesting place, I feel it does a reasonable job as a successor to the DL story, but it is so different (like a movie legacy sequel 30 years after the original) that I’m not surprised it divided big fans of the story. The SAGA system really centred that epic storytelling approach though, it’s a definite shame it didn’t last longer
Very late to the party but... I think this my favourite video of yours I've seen so far as it's something I knew nothing about other than having seen the core box being advertised in an issue of Dragon I read when I was a youngster.
I've picked most of these books up as part of my DragonLance collection and used them as resources as I've developed my 3.5 game, expanding and running the original modules under 3.5. I've found the books to be great resources, with info I can't find elsewhere, like details on the City of Palanthas when the heroes are there in DL8 and 9. I probably won't run the SAGA System, but I will probably look at rewriting the adventures to 3.5 once we finish the original modules.
Dragon puns can get a little long in the _tooth_ ... Sometimes they'll just _drag_ _on_ to the point you'll just want to _claw_ your eyes out. I think it's wise you chose to _scale_ back a bit. Thanks for the video. It was _fire_ !
Great video! I've been a big Dragonlance fan since the 80s but never got to play the Saga system when it came out. I actually got to play it for the first time only recently as part of a 4 part mini-campaign on the Dragonlance Saga UA-cam channel As a fan of the system, I hope we did it justice for you and that you enjoy it if you have time to check it out. I absolutely loved it, it was so much fun! Cheers!
I’ve had this on my watch list for a while, I’m eager to see how you all get on! It can be a really fun system I think. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@jordansorcery the session zero was rough cause we didn't know what we were doing and ended up changing characters/ players anyway but if you start with Session 1 of 4 I think (hope) you enjoy it! I'm obviously biased. Great channel BTW I just subscribed!
I was SO MAD when this came out that I actually took the time to write TSR a letter. I tried to continue into the Fifth Age, but it killed my enthusiasm for the setting. The GAME however, remained interesting, but I never got around to playing it. I think Deadlands shares some DNA with it, at least in regards to the card mechanic.
We never did that game in did we? I wonder if the SAGA system would have been served better by it's own setting or maybe one of the less "known" ones? I think it would have been a brilliant way to re-introduce Al Qadim, especially how that setting has an emphasis on fates and destiny, a perfect fit for the players "choosing" when they succeed!
I do think SAGA works really well with the DL idea of telling an epic story like the novels as controlling successes and failures a little more allows players to better ‘write’ scenes and direct the narrative, but I really think the Fifth Age itself was a very tough sell. It definitely could have worked for a new setting altogether, though it makes you wonder why TSR wanted to split their fantasy market in the first place!
I never engaged with Dragonlance Fifth Age. At that time in my life I was sticking hard to 1st Edition AD&D and BX/BECMI D&D, so even 2nd Edition AD&D was only slowly creeping into my game library, mostly via Ravenloft and Dark Sun. Not being a huge fan of Dragonlance pretty much insured this never reached my shelves. BUT. I did buy the Marvel Saga System rpg. And...wasn't that impressed. The card system didn't grab me, character gen felt sketchy, and in general it just wasn't my cup of tea. That said, I love this video. You've offered a positive perspective on the whole system and the ideals behind it, and while I'll always be a dice person at heart maybe, just maybe I'll dust off my Marvel Saga books, dig out the cards, and give the whole thing a second look...
SAGA system character gen was probably its weakest aspect for me, but the gameplay mechanics really made me feel like PCs could dramatically drive the story. I think the intention to simulate that style is story from novels was pretty well realised, but it’s definitely a very different thing to AD&D style roleplay. I’m really glad you enjoyed the video! Let me know how that second look at Marvel works out!
50 year old Southern Yank. Began playing in 1986. Not being into DL, I wasn’t even aware of Fifth Age at the time, let alone how very different it was. Only after discovering the old-school community (via the Dragonsfoot forums) in 2004 or so did I finally hear of it. Oddly, most old-schoolers seem to regard it positively. Had I been fully aware at the time, I’d have been interested (I just simply ignored DL stuff), so I’d bet I ignored reviews or news in Dragon magazine at that time as well. I regret it….because, though I dislike‘narrative’ mechanics, I am a huge rules-lite gamer at heart (I love games like RISUS)….. I’ve long been fascinated by the SAGA system from afar…. However getting enough stuff second hand on eBay is so crazy expensive, sadly. Perhaps one day it’ll be easy to clone the whole shebang, cards and all… heh
I first discovered Dragonlance, well, by accident, really. At the end of the 80's and dawn of the 90's, I was fortunate enough to receive an Atari ST as a birthday present, along with around 50 copied games - One of which was Heroes of the Lance. A poor game by today's standards, but it was enough to introduce me to the main protagonists of the Dragonlance Saga, and I wanted to know more about them than the brief in-game descriptions given of them. One trip to the library later, I borrowed 'Dragons of Autumn Twilight' for the first time and I was hooked. I devoured as many of the novels as I could find and, years later, after finishing Dragons of Summer Flame, I was sad to have had to leave that world behind. Cut to several years later, having re-read the original Trilogies several times over, a random visit to Forbidden Planet in London found me looking at re-releases with sparkly new covers of the original Trilogies, and a NEW series of Dragonlance novels, beginning with Dragons of a Fallen Sun. On first read of this new War of Souls trilogy, I struggled. I hated that EVERYTHING had changed and that all my favourite characters (save a few) were long dead. On subsequent re-reads, I've come to personally think of it as entertaining; an interesting twist of a story; a what could have been; Non-canon. Imagine then, in 2022, finding out that Weis and Hickman had returned with ANOTHER Dragonlance trilogy (this time in the D&D Setting instead of AD&D) Dragonlance Destinies, that began with Dragons of Deceit and continued recently with Dragons of Fate. A series that could well reset the timeline back to before Summer Flame! With one novel in the trilogy yet to come, only time will tell.
I loved it and still do. I have been working on genericizing it for years and did use it for a Council of Wyrms game with the Dragons being built as superheroes. I salvaged Steven Kenson's Saga website where he had lots of goodies and have a large spellbook for apocryphal sources.
@@jordansorcery They loved it initially, but thought that it would devolve into a political game and just wanted to have fun rping so it died after a few sessions.
It’s always a shame when a campaign doesn’t quite come together for the players, but that still sounds like a great idea. Well done for getting it to the table!
The group I was gaming with at the time didn't do long campaigns well. We had established worlds where our regular characters lived, but our "Campaigns" tended to be one shots that where strung together. Of course I was aware of "Dragon Lance," but I just picked up the random module. I liked the way the lances were mounted while being used on a dragon. There Was also a map of Krynn printed with hexes. Other than those few things, there really wasn't anything that kept my interest. I am going to have to look more into the SAGA System. I have an interest in RPGs that are run without a Game Master, and SAGA might prove useful.
We had a heck of a time trying to get consistent campaigns back then - it was constant one shots in my group. They were fun though! That’s an interesting idea about exploring the SAGA system for GMless or solo play, there might be something in that!
@@jordansorcery I first thought about "GMless' games, when I remember as children, we went of may adventures, and didn't need a "Master" to guide us. It was about this time that I found the "Absolute Tabletop" game Ironsworn, and the SciFi version, Starforged, (great minds and all.) They reffer the GMless style as "Cooperative." Though I think there needs to be some more work on the concept, it could be a significant niche of the TTRPG hobby.
Oh my days. I have been working on a system that uses playing cards in a very similar way to this. I thought i was so original! Damn, and i was such a little Dragonlance dorklet too, but never heard of this before.
I’m a big fan of card based systems, hope yours comes together! DL:5A uses cards really well in my opinion, and if you’re looking for other older systems that use cards well then Deadlands is worth some research!
Always loved Dragonlance.. still got the original AD&D modules and then the hardcover book. Some novels still... but many misplaced. Even found an 80s calendar, Cheers for the vid mate :)
@@jordansorcery Merry Christmas :) Yeh it's been a long time from my first D&D as a young teen that I was enthralled with the artwork and the artists too. Did also find collector art cards and the like. Some miniatures are around somewhere too... lol. Cheers. Keep up the good work mate :)
Great video as seems to be your standard my dude! I hatetedthe fifth age novels. All seemed rushed and just a way to sell more product. Put me off dragonlance for too long... Back on for a couple years now and actually played in the setting. Had fun with it
I'm glad! I find the real world history of some of these epic games so interesting, especially when they are noble failures like Fifth Age. So many great, creative people working on something that just doesn't quite come together
The box looked very good on the shelf, I’m not surprised it sold a few copies that didn’t make it to the table! Especially given how different some of the rules were to regular DND. It was fun though, if you could get into it!
5th Age/SAGA was a brilliant game. I defo see the similarity between it and more modern designs such as the token mechanic used in Dream Askew or Wanderhome. Far better suited to DL than the dry dice of AD&D.
I’d agree, but fear we’re in the minority! The way the card system supports storytelling is really special I think, especially given the nature of DL’s epic lore. Ahead of its time!
I played 5th age Saga once! I thought it was an interesting take on roleplaying, but preferred D&D. I was a big Dragonlance fan so the direction they took the lore bummed me out a little, but it brought the setting forward.At the time I was reading Summer Flame and the Mina trilogy.
The lore was a tough divergence from what DL had been - I’m not surprised that it didn’t work for most. I liked the attempt to build a new Krynn, especially after the end of Weis and Hickman’s time (for a while at least) and the story telling focus really spoke to me for some reason. Definitely divisive, and I’m glad I happened to be one of the minority that got something out of it!
Hated the lore behind 5th Age, but the game itself was marvelous - I just used this to run generic fantasy campaigns and it was an absolute blast! The Marvel version was even better, too, and I ran that at every opportunity.
Mechanically speaking I totally agree - those rules really opened the door to some awesome roleplaying opportunities. I quite like the 5th Age setting, but can completely understand why it didn't work for most people
Having read the original trilogy back in the mid-late 80s, DragonLance was my first introduction to Dungeons & Dragons before I even knew what it was. I have a soft spot for the first and second trilogy, but really didn't care at all for the Fifth Age stuff. Not saying it was bad, but it just wasn't my jam. Thanks for the cup of nostalgia tea.
Thank you for this video, I was curious about the SAGA system and I think you explained not only what it is, but also the context in which it was created in a very clear manner. Actually, I'm kind of curious to try it now, the more narrative approach is something I'm very interested, and now that I know there's a War of the Lance supplement I'm definetely gonna check it out, since the 5th age setting doesn't appeal to me very much (not that it's bad, it's just not for me); despite this, I'm curious to where the story was going before the War of souls was planned, do you know any sources where I can find some more informations about those original plans?
I’m afraid I’ve not seen anything on a hardcover reprint, sadly. It’s wild how expensive some of the novels have gotten now, I’d love to see them get some quality reissues!
I have enjoyed your videos, watched every one so far. One thing that bothers me is.. you should diffuse your ring light so its not reflecting in your glasses. Weird comment I know.
You’re not the only person to mention it and I totally agree! I just got a new tripod so that I can change my set up and hopefully avoid it in future videos (though you’ll have to live with it for the next couple!)
I never really got a chance to play Saga, but it wasn't the rules that drove me away, but rather the story. It literally just wiped away everything Dragonlance except for a reimagined barebones setting location. On one hand, I think it had some good ideas. I liked the way magic was described, (though I found it particularly unbelievable no one ever had ever discovered this before, and then suddenly within a few years two beand new universal physics laws just happened). But sooo much of Fifth Age was I can only describe as childish writing. It is sort of like Disney Star Wars. No real plan, just whatever sounds cool gets signed off on. A lot of popular NPCs (or themes, archtypes, elements) get shit on to highlight ot is a new game, while new ones are inserted we just don't have any valuable investment in. Stuff like that. A lot of the novels I just couldn't even finish reading because of how subjectivly bad they were. Even the wrap up was unsatisfying. Wait, a god can just "steal the world"? And this has never, ever, ever happened before? The intro material had promise, but I just couldn't follow what quickly followed. And I think that is the real problem Dragonlance fans had with the Fifth Age.
Something I'd also point out, at least from the 3E material is that the Mystic (mechanically) kind of sucked. It was just a straight up weaker Cleric that had some flavor, but nothing to really allow it to do things it was suppossed to be able to. I think both the UA Spontaneous Cleric and later Favored Soul both do a better job.
Oh wow, yeah what a classic! I think I had one pack as I distinctly remember playing a few games during school lunches, but it never took off for my gaming group. It was a cool idea though, so it definitely warrants revisiting - another great shout for my projects list!
@@jordansorcery I find Dragondice fascinating despite only having dabbled in it. Aside from being one of the earlier (and more successful, although that's a very low bar) "collectable thing" games that competed with CCGs, it's such a weird combination of a grand tactical miniatures game and a strategic board game. Those dice are as innovative an idea as Columbia's "block games" are in a lot of ways - they're sort-of-miniatures that have the bulk of their own combat rules inscribed right on them, and the way they move around an abstract map (also made of dice) is very much like an area-movement wargame. Underrated game IMO, although the random-packed collectable aspect is as vile as it gets and combined with the sheer strangeness of it to doom any hope of getting real long-term traction, I think. Still has a rabid fan base and last I looked everything is kind of in production/available to this day, and there were even some post-TSR releases covering new armies that combined the "color blends" that didn't get used in the old days. Shockingly, the novels even gave the setting some character. They weren't what I could call good reads, but they did flesh the world out pretty well and highlighted some of the more unique game elements. The idea of Dwarven elemental masters transporting mammoth-riding ultra-heavy cavalry via underground lava flows to launch surprise attacks from below sticks in my head to this day. Well worth a vid if you're up for it.
They do are an interesting idea, and I really like how you describe them as miniatures inscribed with their own rules. It’s quite an inventive game in a lot of ways, and probably does deserve more discussion. Completely agree with you though, the collectible aspect was such a dangerous fad, it really destroyed a lot of otherwise great games. I know we’re not totally away from it theses days, but I’m glad it feels less prevalent
@@jordansorcery I was strongly reminded of Dragondice when Mage Knight first came out. It's much more of a traditional minis game, but the idea of having all the figure stats as part of the model (or at least its base) is very much akin to the way the dice incorporated most of what you needed to play them in their very structure. Perhaps its more accurate to think of Dragondice as very elaborate counters or tokens than minis as such, but there were elements of gameplay (trying to fight on favorable terrain, deciding when and how to divide your forces up between locations, even the way you had to balance maneuverability (for manipulating the terrain die) and magic/missile/melee strengths all felt more like an abstract minis rules system than a board game to me. An odd and quite innovative game design concept, and while it wasn't quite unique it saw more success than any of the (few) other collectable dice games that came out.
I loved it more than any other D&D ruleset. The main problem with it was the combat system was unplayable. The Marvel Saga system fixed that problem, but by then they had sold the company and eratta or a new version never came out to fix it. Quite a shame. I still love many things about it. Still hate all versions of D&D.
They took a popular world that was based in a game system, and rather than doing the intelligent thing of fleshing out the world they did a double reboot and switched the game system. It was a dumb decision in a time of TSR making many dumb decisions. Maybe 5th age and the saga system were great but while I could scrape together enough DL fans to play in the original setting, I had no chance finding enough for the 5th age and on top of that running a different rules system, it just wasn't going to happen.
I never played 5th Age ( I've only ever played one session of D&D in the DL setting under the 3rd edition rules), but I was a fan of the original DL trilogy (chronicles). I didn't like the first age of mortals novel.
i bought it when it first came out. I never really got a chance to play it...and to be honest, my only real memory of the system was how predatory it felt. 12+ books for one campaign setting, and most of them having advanced options for magic, melee, rogues, etc, only made it the more insulting. You could get by with just the core, but it felt incomplete...and those other releases filled in the sizeable gaps. To go from the 3 core books of AD&D, to needing nearly 10 just to have a fleshed out base...seemed greedy. Thats when i started using T$R.
It definitely suffered from that approach which felt so prevalent in the 90s, splitting important rules across a fair few books. Each of the 5A books did offer great content though so it wasn’t as bad as some cases in my opinion. My fear now though is that the ‘under monitised’ talk with see current D&D go even further in that direction!
@Jordan Sorcery ya, that comment brought back 5a memories. If you are going to sell 10 books for a setting, they better offer something. If you are just going to break up base content and charge full price?? Miss me with that shit.
I now remember that growing up I saw the name "Dragonlance" in advertisements in my comics and video game magazines but I didn't really know what it was since unfortunately I've never played a pen&paper RPG (Baldur's Gate and its sister CRPGs were my only exposure). This helps me understand the history a bit more!
I always loved the ad for Fifth Age that ran in magazines (and I think comic books too) of a D20 with a roll of 1 and "Damn!" written beneath it, with the tagline "great idea, bad roll". It really sold the idea (to me at least) that this RPG would put more of story in your hands as players. Glad you got something out of this history, it's a game that I think got unfairly lost through the cracks of time
Was it Dragonlance? No. Was it AD&D? No. Was it liked? No. .. so glad I was not into AD&D, replacing a liked gaming system, destroying a loved setting, explains those savoury comments I would hear in the game shop.. not a move I'd do if I worked at TSR, maybe it contributed to their financial trouble. Should have done SAGA as its own product line with its own setting, it looks weird to me and reminds me of the Baron Munchaussen game, being a maverick and telling tall tales. My experience with Dragonlance, never played it .. but my local game shop did get the imported first edition of Dragons of Autumn Twilight with the Elmore cover, I got it based on that cover art, loved it, thankfully Penguin stepped in with the rest. When TSR released the original Chronicles trilogy and the twins Legends trilogy in hardback collected editions, upgraded my Penguin paperbacks. Weis & Hickman Dragonlance was really entertaining, well paced exciting fun pulp fantasy adventures. Couldnt say about the other hundreds of spinoff books but the Weis & Hickman stories entertain me, no Fifth Age.
There were definitely some...unusual...decisions being made by TSR at the time! I have a lot of sympathy for the Fifth Age design team though, given that they weren't expecting to inherit the world of Krynn in quite that state! But then Weis and Hickman got short-changed by the decision to cut the war of chaos down to one book as well! Basically a series of dubious choices that didn't work out for TSR or anyone else. At least I got a lovely little game collection out of it though!
Ah yes, the SAGA system. I never played it but immediately took a dislike to it. I hate cards with my RPG and I like dice. There's a variety of reasons but I still don't like cards for RPGs unless the RPG is exclusively cards with no character sheet, no book, only cards.
That’s interesting, is that because you prefer the tactile nature of dice rolls or the random aspect for example, or is it something else that drives the preference? Outside of SAGA there’s a few card mechanics I’ve also enjoyed in RPGs, like in Deadlands for instance, so I don’t mind either approach myself
@@jordansorcery There's tons of reasons why I don't like it and it's all in the past so I don't even remember all of them. One reason is, I don't want to mix character sheets and cards. It's a mess to keep track of. Another reason is this BS about being able to decide when you succeed. Shit happens. This is very important as it is a primary aspect of life. No matter how much you plan and want success, shit happens. That's what dice are for. There's a ton of other reasons and I could write a full book on it but the bottom line is cards and RPGs are not a good thing. Note that I did not come up with this on a whim. I've tried plenty of RPGs that use cards and every time it's: This might be good if they did not use cards. I am not saying that you or anyone else should not play these RPGs, I'm saying that I've tried enough to say I don't like thgem and I've purged most of the reasons why from my memory and moved on accumulating other, more pleasant information. I don't have to know WHY I don't like them, I just have to remember that I don't like them.
The 5th Age story ruined Dragonlance. War of Souls made it worse. SAGA rules might have been decent, but my friends and I had no interest in playing DL after the events of Dragons of Summer Flame. The setting jumped the shark. It's as simple as that.
I'd be really interested to see the sales figures for AD&D Dragonlance compared to the other settings out at the same time - I'd have thought the same as you, that most people would want to play their own characters, but DL's longevity and the success of movie inspired games like Star Wars over the years also make me wonder if people do enjoy playing established characters a lot as well
Disastrous failure or ahead of its time? Cue the Why Not Both meme. And while I know that Dragonlance supposedly had a huge fan base and sold big numbers, I never met anyone personally who actually played in the setting. Not one, and I've been playing D&D since the Seventies. Every single other setting TSR published, loads of people. Dragonlance? Zero. I know people who bought stuff for it, sometimes quite a lot of stuff, but they didn't use it, it just sat on the shelf. They didn't even mine the setting for ideas - I've seen giff walking around folks' Forgotten Realms and muls and thri-kreen in Oerth and Planescape, but tinker gnomes? Nowhere to be seen. Never. Whole setting has always felt like it was built of pure hype to me, although I know objectively someone must have been playing the damn thing. Just not anyone I gamed with, apparently.
Ha, indeed! I agree tbh, it was innovative and bold, but just as often flawed and misguided! That’s a really interesting point, and come to think of it I don’t know anyone outside my own immediate group that dabbled in DL either. Forgotten Realms always felt like the default, with some of the other settings getting mentioned here and there. I wonder if DL groups/players weren’t as accessible because they were by necessity playing in long campaigns with each other!
I quite enjoyed a lot of the mechanics, but it was definitely not perfect. Was it just the general system that didn't work for you, or specific aspects?
Thank you for the kind words. Even all these years later, I rank "Heroes of Defiance" and "Citadel of Light" among the best items I've done. (One of your viewers called your video to my attention, and I'm glad he did!)
Thank you for all the wonderful words you’ve written! A whole lot of incredible gaming memories are tied up in this game for me, an important part of my hobby journey so I’m very grateful to you!
I unfortunately didn't find out about Citadel of Light and Palanthas, until about 6 months ago, but I have everything else (except some of the AD&D/SAGA books and deck adventures).
Thank you for your work on the line. I loved running the game and am looking to run it again soon 🤘
@Steve Miller, I loved the series, thank you for your work on it!
@@drgrantboardman2224 Thank YOU! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
This is a nice examination of the Fifth Age era of Dragonlance and seeks to treat it with the fairness it deserves.
Thank you! I think a lot of the tough circumstances get overlooked when discussing the game. Like any other game it’s not perfect, but I think it did a lot of innovative things really well, and was clearly made with passion.
Hi Jordan. Wonderful video that showcases the positives about the SAGA system.
I felt, part of the SAGA problem was the boxed sets, themselves. They get crushed over time. Even the box in your video looks frayed. Book sellers didn't know where to place these on the shelf. They didn't know to cross into the novel section and place it with their shared worlds shelves with Dragonlance books, or place these smaller boxes with the game section, without the Dragonlance brand support.
Also, you missed the fact that "cards + role > Narrator-assigned difficulty" is exactly the D&D3.x's "d20 + skill > DC" Parts of SAGA evolved into D&D3.X game system.
My theory: dual support of SAGA and AD&D2/D&D killed SAGA and TSR. It's the same blunder of splitting the fan base into buying different products. or split with different game settings. WotC learned this lesson in D&D3. Kill AD&D2. Make a huge supporting system with the open gaming license to get immediate fanbase adoption. License out Dragonlance to Margaret Weis Productions to support D&D3.5.
Lastly, I'm a big collector of Dragonlance too. I have an extra copy of "The Duntollik Run." We should talk.
Thank you, I’m really glad you enjoyed it! Good point about SAGA’s role in the design of D&D3 - I think a lot of lessons from this and Alternity (a game I also plan to spend some time on) really laid the foundation for it and D20.
Agree about the boxes in terms of the longevity and store placement (my boxes are looking mighty rough!), though they are lovely to look at! As far as splitting the fan base I think it was an interesting idea from TSR, trying to tap into that emerging story telling roleplay market, but it just didn’t appeal to them and instead seemed to cannibalise AD&D sales (where it sold at all!)
You intrigue me with this talk of the Duntolik Run, that would be an amazing thing for me! You can find my email in the about section if you want to get in contact.
This is amazing. I never knew about 5th Age and this is all fresh to me! I love Dragonlance, it was one of my first encounters with D&D. The SAGA system seems very interesting too!
This is a really good video. AD&D2e players often have this nostalgia filter which makes it a harder pill to swallow; Weis and Hickman had left TSR by the time the AD&D2e boxed set in 92' had released; the gaming materials diverged wildly from Hickman and Weis original; Dragonlance books kept TSR afloat but Ad&D2e did not sell as well as people like to pretend.
Looking back it is wild to see how many troubles there really were at TSR in that era. It felt like AD&D was an unstoppable behemoth, but it was more precarious than it seemed. I really respect the team behind DL:5A trying to do something so different, even if it didn’t save TSR in the end either!
True we give 5th Age (not to be confused with 5eD&D) a harder time than it deserves; but despite that there are people who grew up with that Era and only have a rudimentary exposure to the original DL run. I did too. Coming from the 90s Tsr era with the comic books and novels Steve Winter and Mary Kirchoff ; Chris Avellone with Planescape. The Spelljammer companion Krynnspace. Etc. Not all DL 'Canon'
I don't imagine DL5A was ever going to do terribly well in the long term. Setting aside TSR's internal troubles, the SAGA era was inherently working uphill to make 5th Age work.
Much of what longtime Dragonlance fans liked about the setting was abruptly strangled and removed. The magic, the adventure, the dragons, and the gods. The characters and the context in which they existed. While 5th Age was in the setting, it was so radically altered as to be functionally a new world. Where all the similarities or name-checking seemed, to a long-time fan, to be more a mockery than an organic continuation. Or at least, that's the impression a Dragonlance fan might get looking at the products.
Moreover, revolutionary though story games were (the much-beloved World of Darkness is a testament to this), it's a big ask to expect AD&D players to jump into. Especially when the SAGA system was _replacing_ the game they were familiar with. If you liked the dice rolling, dungeon crawling, and deeply systemic AD&D, removing all that for a freeform narrative system that used cards was...difficult, to say the least.
A good comparison here might be to the transition between Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Age of Sigmar. Regardless of AoS's quality, or lack thereof, it's no small thing to shift from a dense rank-and-flank wargame into a more streamlined skirmish style. That AoS came on the fallout of Warhammer's own deeply cataclysmic and unsatisfying setting change only cements the comparison further.
In that light, I'm amazed any Dragonlance fans made the switch at all. Which becomes a real problem, as any long-running series relies on existing fans to keep it afloat (even if only so long as to cultivate more new fans). Those weren't already familiar with Dragonlance didn't necessarily have a reason to jump into this "SAGA" thing. AD&D players who didn't already run through Dragonlance adventures might have had _negative_ preconceptions of the series. "What, that setting where the DM talks the story at you, and railroads all your actions? And this is all that but MORE?!?"
It's difficult to understate the degree to which 5th Age was kind of set up to fail. It had everything working against it, except its quality. And quality means nothing if no one wants to participate.
Agreed. It had a lot of challenges even before it got written, but I think they have it a damn fine try
Totally agree, especially your second paragraph. If TSR wanted to try out a new diceless gaming system, they should have created a new world for it.
Instead, they butchered Krynn into a mutated, misshapen mongrel, as if they were Dr. Frankenstein.
Same thing happened with 4th edition D&D. Build a new world for it! Don't butcher up the Realms, removing just about everything the majority of fans liked.
Fantastic video! I had stopped reading Dragonlance with the end of the orignal companions main arc and was nearly done with D&D for awhile when this stuff was on the shelves. I've wondered about this game a few times through the years.
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it! I think it came out during a lull for a lot of people both in DL and general D&D terms, but it was perfectly timed for me! It’s one of those games that whilst not my all time favourite it has stayed with me ever since
The Marvel Super Heroes implementation of the Saga system was magnificent. It was the best superhero rpg that I have ever played.
It’s a really smart system for such a wide array of powers and abilities!
I've been thinking about what an RPG using a deck of cards instead of dice would be like. Little did I know the SAGA system already exists. Thanks for covering it and your perspective, which is similar to my own. I'll be looking for a copy of it now
DL 5th age was a non-starter for me. I loved the novel but never wanted to play the modules or even in the DL setting so 5th age was nothing to me. I remember some people liking it, some people not liking it but I never even looked at it. Money was tight back then and I could not afford it anyways.
The Fifth Age box was the first game I ever DM’d for. I was coming from being a player in my 2E group. I wasn’t ready for the type of thinking on your feet the Saga system required as a narrator. Now I love games systems that put the narrative forward like Monster of the Week.
Great reminder of a underrated game. I never actually got a chance to play Fifth Age though I bought most of the rule books and enjoyed the background. I think - as both a Dragonlance fan and an (A)D&D fan I had mixed view of the system, but reading it back it genuinely seems both an elegant game and an exciting and unique period for Krynn.
I think the Fate Deck was simultaneously a great strength and weakness - it was very characterful but keeping track of 82 (!) cards without losing any was a task far beyond the mental capabilities of teenage me and i suspect many others which makes it very difficult to play now. It doesn't help that so much gaming is done online on the likes of Roll20 or via forums though obviously that could not have been foreseen at the time.
Good points re the SAGA cards, they were such a strength and weakness at the same time!
I do maintain that overall the system was a very elegant one for the type of epic & heroic stories they were aiming for. It just had a lot of baggage to carry at the same time!
Thank you for giving me a new look at a time period that i didn't enjoy of my favorite campaign setting. I wondered why they were hesitant to release new DragonLance stuff during 3rd edition. And now i know it's from the usual corporate mindset of "we tryed something really new that didn't work so now we think the whole thing doesn't and has never worked".
I’m glad I could share a little more context. It was definitely a bold effort by TSR there at the end, and probably an over correction by Wizards as a result!
Sorry for commenting so late but I have been living some crazy days recently.
Its soo good to hear something different about D&D as most of the videos are soooo similar that I just stopped warching them, I would love to hear your taugths on "Al Quadim" or the 2e "Gazeteers" .
Thanks for giving it a watch and commenting even with the wild times (the UK Christmas run up has me all over the place at the moment!) There are definitely a few other DND settings/supplements I’m keen to find time to talk about - Al-Qadim is a great shout! I’d really like to dive into some of the stuff I never got a chance to play as well like Cities of Mystery.
Must admit though, the next TSR title I’m planning to tackle is an equally bold attempt to move away from AD&D, but this time towards sci-fi, and it was one that didn’t last long either!
@@jordansorcery I will be waiting for it.
Very well-done review. I especially like the parts where you talk about how brilliant I was! In all honesty, working with people like Sue, Stan!, Skip, and Jean made it easy to look good.
I can't speak to the drama behind the scenes with Margaret and Tracy butting heads with TSR management - I had no part in it. Most of my work up until I was handed the DL:5A project had been in the Ravenloft line - itself a very story-heavy setting. I've always been a big fan of story-telling RPGs back to my earliest days in the hobby (the late 1970s...sigh...I'm old). The chance to create a totally unique system as much by players as the narrator was a dream come true. Sadly, it was pretty obviously doomed from the start. I knew when I walked out of the boss' office with the assignment that it was neither going to win over Dragonlance fans nor AD&D players, so I just had fun with it.
In all honesty, thank you for the very kind words.
This is fascinating, thank you for this. I really mean it when I say that this is a game that has stayed with me and means a lot, so thank you very much for writing it! Alternity was another big game for me, so I appreciate your work on that too.
I’d love to hear more about your time at TSR, let me know if you’d be open to a chat!
Just wanted to thank you for some of the best games I've run, using the Fifth Age SAGA system. My players and I had a blast with it. My cards are practically in mint condition and I'm looking at running it again. Thank you, Sir 🤘
@@MarkGoldfine Thank you for your kind words. It's nice to know that the SAGA system found some fans who still remember and even play it. Please let me know how it goes when you run it!
Thanks for the effort.
We have a blast playing something close to the SAGA cards in Malifaux.
Absolutely no way 13 year old me would have touched diceless D&D which is our loss.
Wish it could have been different.
Thank you again :)
@@Wombats555 Give 13-year old you a break. 13-year old me did a whole lot of things 60-year old me wishes he hadn't. Oh well. You live, you learn.
Another brilliant video, I’m slowly going to work my way through them all I’m sure.
I only dabbled a little with D&D, and while I owned a couple of Dragonlance novels I never played them (still have a couple books on my shelf I think).
I did however discover the novels around the time same time I did Heroquest and Warhammer 3rd Ed. Still super fond of them, but didn’t really read or play anything to do with Fifth Age. Looks really interesting though, I wonder if it was before it’s time.
Thanks! I think Fifth Age was definitely ahead of it’s time, and was a very bold attempt to utterly reinvent a much loved fantasy world.
The more I think about it the more it was like the WFB/AoS change, though a lot less successful, at least financially speaking!
I enjoyed playing Fifth Age when my friend at the time introduced it to me. We were also playing 2nd Ed d&d as well as White Wolf tabletop, so I was into the narrative focus of Fifth Age, even though I enjoyed our 2nd Ed dungeon crawls as well.
But my friend expressed constant disappointment whenever he'd be dealt a "stinky hand" of fate cards. Essentially, if he knew that in the next few scenes, he had a lousy selection of cards, he would lose interest and gain in frustration, especially if he'd draw yet another lousy card after an action attempt.
Soon, he was attempting unnecessary or trivial tasks in order to cycle out low scoring cards and hold on to the "good ones" for important encounters. You could call it "powergaming" and that he was missing the point of a narrative focused RPG, and be right. But for someone like him, there is an admitted difference in knowing that unless you attempt easy, unnecessary tasks, you can expect to not be very heroic when it comes to randomized game elements in the next few scenes, whereas with a die, there is always the possibility of a "nat 20" to turn things around.
For my part, I really enjoyed Fifth Age and tried to find comedic or "doomed heroic effort" ways to cinematically get through my "lousy cards", but I admit, it did happen that I made some attempts at things not too crucial or that were likely to fail, in order to conjure up some "good cards" from the deck.
Loving your content. I'm learning so much about the games and books from my childhood. I still have a pile of well loved Dragon Lance books. I had the original game books but the 5th age is new to me. Thanks for doing the work to bring this video to us
Thank you for watching and commenting! In the research I’ve found out so much stuff about these games I’ve loved all my life so I’m happy that people are getting something from it too!
I was very, very much not a fan of D&D (never was, still not, can't imagine I ever will be). But I'd read and loved the original DragonLance novels. In fact, they'd actually helped me get over some personal hurdles as a young reader & gain the confidence to go on to be a voracious reader as a teen & adult. So, in spite of my love of TTRPGs and the special place DragonLance had in my heart, I'd never played it. When Fifth Age came out, that almost changed. An acquaintance had picked it up and convinced me to give it a try. I liked what I saw and made a character, but the game fizzled before it began and I never ended up playing it at all. It's too bad, because I think they had a good idea with the Saga System, that might have really been something with a chance to develop a bit.
It sits in such an interesting place, I feel it does a reasonable job as a successor to the DL story, but it is so different (like a movie legacy sequel 30 years after the original) that I’m not surprised it divided big fans of the story. The SAGA system really centred that epic storytelling approach though, it’s a definite shame it didn’t last longer
Very late to the party but... I think this my favourite video of yours I've seen so far as it's something I knew nothing about other than having seen the core box being advertised in an issue of Dragon I read when I was a youngster.
I've picked most of these books up as part of my DragonLance collection and used them as resources as I've developed my 3.5 game, expanding and running the original modules under 3.5. I've found the books to be great resources, with info I can't find elsewhere, like details on the City of Palanthas when the heroes are there in DL8 and 9. I probably won't run the SAGA System, but I will probably look at rewriting the adventures to 3.5 once we finish the original modules.
Dragon puns can get a little long in the _tooth_ ... Sometimes they'll just _drag_ _on_ to the point you'll just want to _claw_ your eyes out. I think it's wise you chose to _scale_ back a bit. Thanks for the video. It was _fire_ !
I can’t compete with this treasure trove of puns, you’ve definitely got something to feel Smaug about!
@@jordansorcery 😂
Great video! I've been a big Dragonlance fan since the 80s but never got to play the Saga system when it came out. I actually got to play it for the first time only recently as part of a 4 part mini-campaign on the Dragonlance Saga UA-cam channel As a fan of the system, I hope we did it justice for you and that you enjoy it if you have time to check it out. I absolutely loved it, it was so much fun! Cheers!
I’ve had this on my watch list for a while, I’m eager to see how you all get on! It can be a really fun system I think. Thanks for watching and commenting!
@@jordansorcery the session zero was rough cause we didn't know what we were doing and ended up changing characters/ players anyway but if you start with Session 1 of 4 I think (hope) you enjoy it! I'm obviously biased. Great channel BTW I just subscribed!
Looking forward to it!
I was SO MAD when this came out that I actually took the time to write TSR a letter. I tried to continue into the Fifth Age, but it killed my enthusiasm for the setting. The GAME however, remained interesting, but I never got around to playing it. I think Deadlands shares some DNA with it, at least in regards to the card mechanic.
We never did that game in did we? I wonder if the SAGA system would have been served better by it's own setting or maybe one of the less "known" ones? I think it would have been a brilliant way to re-introduce Al Qadim, especially how that setting has an emphasis on fates and destiny, a perfect fit for the players "choosing" when they succeed!
I do think SAGA works really well with the DL idea of telling an epic story like the novels as controlling successes and failures a little more allows players to better ‘write’ scenes and direct the narrative, but I really think the Fifth Age itself was a very tough sell.
It definitely could have worked for a new setting altogether, though it makes you wonder why TSR wanted to split their fantasy market in the first place!
Another great video, I like these retrospectives on old RPG games.
Thank you, appreciate the comment. I'm glad you're enjoying them, there's a few more lost RPG gems I'd love to get to in the future!
I never engaged with Dragonlance Fifth Age. At that time in my life I was sticking hard to 1st Edition AD&D and BX/BECMI D&D, so even 2nd Edition AD&D was only slowly creeping into my game library, mostly via Ravenloft and Dark Sun. Not being a huge fan of Dragonlance pretty much insured this never reached my shelves. BUT.
I did buy the Marvel Saga System rpg. And...wasn't that impressed. The card system didn't grab me, character gen felt sketchy, and in general it just wasn't my cup of tea.
That said, I love this video. You've offered a positive perspective on the whole system and the ideals behind it, and while I'll always be a dice person at heart maybe, just maybe I'll dust off my Marvel Saga books, dig out the cards, and give the whole thing a second look...
SAGA system character gen was probably its weakest aspect for me, but the gameplay mechanics really made me feel like PCs could dramatically drive the story. I think the intention to simulate that style is story from novels was pretty well realised, but it’s definitely a very different thing to AD&D style roleplay.
I’m really glad you enjoyed the video! Let me know how that second look at Marvel works out!
50 year old Southern Yank. Began playing in 1986.
Not being into DL, I wasn’t even aware of Fifth Age at the time, let alone how very different it was.
Only after discovering the old-school community (via the Dragonsfoot forums) in 2004 or so did I finally hear of it.
Oddly, most old-schoolers seem to regard it positively.
Had I been fully aware at the time, I’d have been interested (I just simply ignored DL stuff), so I’d bet I ignored reviews or news in Dragon magazine at that time as well.
I regret it….because, though I dislike‘narrative’ mechanics, I am a huge rules-lite gamer at heart (I love games like RISUS)…..
I’ve long been fascinated by the SAGA system from afar….
However getting enough stuff second hand on eBay is so crazy expensive, sadly.
Perhaps one day it’ll be easy to clone the whole shebang, cards and all… heh
I first discovered Dragonlance, well, by accident, really.
At the end of the 80's and dawn of the 90's, I was fortunate enough to receive an Atari ST as a birthday present, along with around 50 copied games - One of which was Heroes of the Lance. A poor game by today's standards, but it was enough to introduce me to the main protagonists of the Dragonlance Saga, and I wanted to know more about them than the brief in-game descriptions given of them.
One trip to the library later, I borrowed 'Dragons of Autumn Twilight' for the first time and I was hooked.
I devoured as many of the novels as I could find and, years later, after finishing Dragons of Summer Flame, I was sad to have had to leave that world behind.
Cut to several years later, having re-read the original Trilogies several times over, a random visit to Forbidden Planet in London found me looking at re-releases with sparkly new covers of the original Trilogies, and a NEW series of Dragonlance novels, beginning with Dragons of a Fallen Sun.
On first read of this new War of Souls trilogy, I struggled. I hated that EVERYTHING had changed and that all my favourite characters (save a few) were long dead.
On subsequent re-reads, I've come to personally think of it as entertaining; an interesting twist of a story; a what could have been; Non-canon.
Imagine then, in 2022, finding out that Weis and Hickman had returned with ANOTHER Dragonlance trilogy (this time in the D&D Setting instead of AD&D) Dragonlance Destinies, that began with Dragons of Deceit and continued recently with Dragons of Fate.
A series that could well reset the timeline back to before Summer Flame!
With one novel in the trilogy yet to come, only time will tell.
I loved it and still do. I have been working on genericizing it for years and did use it for a Council of Wyrms game with the Dragons being built as superheroes. I salvaged Steven Kenson's Saga website where he had lots of goodies and have a large spellbook for apocryphal sources.
And I used 4 9-suite decks from DTCards to make a hybrid deck between 5th Age and Marvel Saga.
That sounds ace! Love it when you can build on a fun system with new ideas and fixes! That Council of Wyrms game sounds epic, how did that go?
@@jordansorcery They loved it initially, but thought that it would devolve into a political game and just wanted to have fun rping so it died after a few sessions.
It’s always a shame when a campaign doesn’t quite come together for the players, but that still sounds like a great idea. Well done for getting it to the table!
I have the dragonlance SAGA core rule box, and I love the way it points to roleplaying.
It’s such an immersive box, I think. And it really encourages storytelling led adventures, which I really enjoy!
The group I was gaming with at the time didn't do long campaigns well. We had established worlds where our regular characters lived, but our "Campaigns" tended to be one shots that where strung together. Of course I was aware of "Dragon Lance," but I just picked up the random module. I liked the way the lances were mounted while being used on a dragon. There Was also a map of Krynn printed with hexes. Other than those few things, there really wasn't anything that kept my interest. I am going to have to look more into the SAGA System. I have an interest in RPGs that are run without a Game Master, and SAGA might prove useful.
We had a heck of a time trying to get consistent campaigns back then - it was constant one shots in my group. They were fun though!
That’s an interesting idea about exploring the SAGA system for GMless or solo play, there might be something in that!
@@jordansorcery I first thought about "GMless' games, when I remember as children, we went of may adventures, and didn't need a "Master" to guide us. It was about this time that I found the "Absolute Tabletop" game Ironsworn, and the SciFi version, Starforged, (great minds and all.) They reffer the GMless style as "Cooperative."
Though I think there needs to be some more work on the concept, it could be a significant niche of the TTRPG hobby.
Oh my days. I have been working on a system that uses playing cards in a very similar way to this. I thought i was so original! Damn, and i was such a little Dragonlance dorklet too, but never heard of this before.
I’m a big fan of card based systems, hope yours comes together! DL:5A uses cards really well in my opinion, and if you’re looking for other older systems that use cards well then Deadlands is worth some research!
@@jordansorcery thanks dude, will give it a reccy.
Always loved Dragonlance.. still got the original AD&D modules and then the hardcover book. Some novels still... but many misplaced. Even found an 80s calendar, Cheers for the vid mate :)
Oh man, those calendars were epic! Sounds like you’ve still got a very worthy collection to thumb through there! Thanks for the comment!
@@jordansorcery Merry Christmas :) Yeh it's been a long time from my first D&D as a young teen that I was enthralled with the artwork and the artists too. Did also find collector art cards and the like. Some miniatures are around somewhere too... lol. Cheers. Keep up the good work mate :)
Excellent video that really covers the whole shebang! Bravo!
Thanks so much!
Never played DragonLance 5th Age, but Marvel Super Heroes Adventure Game rocked! Great video, very informative :)
I recently picked up one of the X-Men modules, hoping to get it played at some point in 2023! Thanks for watching!
Best box design in history. Great ride once again, Jodan!
It's fantastic isn't it, always loved the design of all of them!
Great video as seems to be your standard my dude!
I hatetedthe fifth age novels. All seemed rushed and just a way to sell more product. Put me off dragonlance for too long...
Back on for a couple years now and actually played in the setting. Had fun with it
I never got to played the SAGA System or Fifth Age DL, but I have some of the supplements and the presentation is indeed nice.
They really knocked the production out of the park in my opinion, they were lovely artefacts besides anything else
I don't play RPGs but a video on the subject is fascinating.
I'm glad! I find the real world history of some of these epic games so interesting, especially when they are noble failures like Fifth Age. So many great, creative people working on something that just doesn't quite come together
This game is still one of my absolute favourites! Great video!
It's stayed with me a long time! Thanks for watching and commenting
@@jordansorcery we played it again a couple of months ago. It is still quite groundbreaking, IMO.
i remember my friend buying this when it came out. I don't think we ever played it.
The box looked very good on the shelf, I’m not surprised it sold a few copies that didn’t make it to the table! Especially given how different some of the rules were to regular DND. It was fun though, if you could get into it!
5th Age/SAGA was a brilliant game. I defo see the similarity between it and more modern designs such as the token mechanic used in Dream Askew or Wanderhome. Far better suited to DL than the dry dice of AD&D.
I’d agree, but fear we’re in the minority! The way the card system supports storytelling is really special I think, especially given the nature of DL’s epic lore. Ahead of its time!
@@jordansorcery your vid has left me wanting to make a high fantasy hack of the No Dice No Masters system... No Dungeons No Masters anyone?
That sounds great!
I played 5th age Saga once! I thought it was an interesting take on roleplaying, but preferred D&D. I was a big Dragonlance fan so the direction they took the lore bummed me out a little, but it brought the setting forward.At the time I was reading Summer Flame and the Mina trilogy.
The lore was a tough divergence from what DL had been - I’m not surprised that it didn’t work for most. I liked the attempt to build a new Krynn, especially after the end of Weis and Hickman’s time (for a while at least) and the story telling focus really spoke to me for some reason.
Definitely divisive, and I’m glad I happened to be one of the minority that got something out of it!
Hated the lore behind 5th Age, but the game itself was marvelous - I just used this to run generic fantasy campaigns and it was an absolute blast! The Marvel version was even better, too, and I ran that at every opportunity.
Mechanically speaking I totally agree - those rules really opened the door to some awesome roleplaying opportunities. I quite like the 5th Age setting, but can completely understand why it didn't work for most people
Having read the original trilogy back in the mid-late 80s, DragonLance was my first introduction to Dungeons & Dragons before I even knew what it was. I have a soft spot for the first and second trilogy, but really didn't care at all for the Fifth Age stuff. Not saying it was bad, but it just wasn't my jam. Thanks for the cup of nostalgia tea.
You’re not alone in passing on 5A, it definitely wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea. But the nostalgia tea, now that I’m serving everyday of the week!
Thank you for this video, I was curious about the SAGA system and I think you explained not only what it is, but also the context in which it was created in a very clear manner. Actually, I'm kind of curious to try it now, the more narrative approach is something I'm very interested, and now that I know there's a War of the Lance supplement I'm definetely gonna check it out, since the 5th age setting doesn't appeal to me very much (not that it's bad, it's just not for me); despite this, I'm curious to where the story was going before the War of souls was planned, do you know any sources where I can find some more informations about those original plans?
Hey Jordan, I’m your research or knowledge do you know if there are any plans to re-release the novels in hardcover?
I’m afraid I’ve not seen anything on a hardcover reprint, sadly. It’s wild how expensive some of the novels have gotten now, I’d love to see them get some quality reissues!
I have enjoyed your videos, watched every one so far. One thing that bothers me is.. you should diffuse your ring light so its not reflecting in your glasses. Weird comment I know.
You’re not the only person to mention it and I totally agree! I just got a new tripod so that I can change my set up and hopefully avoid it in future videos (though you’ll have to live with it for the next couple!)
@@jordansorcery
Or at least keep your head still, so the rings stay central, for that 'hypno-eyes' effect.
I have gotten past my hypno-toad phase (I hope) by finally moving my lighting setup!
I never really got a chance to play Saga, but it wasn't the rules that drove me away, but rather the story. It literally just wiped away everything Dragonlance except for a reimagined barebones setting location. On one hand, I think it had some good ideas. I liked the way magic was described, (though I found it particularly unbelievable no one ever had ever discovered this before, and then suddenly within a few years two beand new universal physics laws just happened). But sooo much of Fifth Age was I can only describe as childish writing. It is sort of like Disney Star Wars. No real plan, just whatever sounds cool gets signed off on. A lot of popular NPCs (or themes, archtypes, elements) get shit on to highlight ot is a new game, while new ones are inserted we just don't have any valuable investment in. Stuff like that.
A lot of the novels I just couldn't even finish reading because of how subjectivly bad they were. Even the wrap up was unsatisfying. Wait, a god can just "steal the world"? And this has never, ever, ever happened before?
The intro material had promise, but I just couldn't follow what quickly followed. And I think that is the real problem Dragonlance fans had with the Fifth Age.
Was that the old Manchester Model Shop on the corner of Deansgate and Peter Street?
D&D was lucky to have Dragonlance books to supplement their lore, Krynn is awesome!
Something I'd also point out, at least from the 3E material is that the Mystic (mechanically) kind of sucked. It was just a straight up weaker Cleric that had some flavor, but nothing to really allow it to do things it was suppossed to be able to. I think both the UA Spontaneous Cleric and later Favored Soul both do a better job.
WEG's Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game is the greatest roleplaying game ever devised! Bar none!!
Hi Jordan, did you ever play Dragon Dice? I still have a box of these somewhere - how about a video about this game?
Oh wow, yeah what a classic! I think I had one pack as I distinctly remember playing a few games during school lunches, but it never took off for my gaming group. It was a cool idea though, so it definitely warrants revisiting - another great shout for my projects list!
Ha - didn’t really “take off” with my group either! I press-ganged a few friends into buying some dice and we passed a few lunchtimes playing it too.
@@jordansorcery I find Dragondice fascinating despite only having dabbled in it. Aside from being one of the earlier (and more successful, although that's a very low bar) "collectable thing" games that competed with CCGs, it's such a weird combination of a grand tactical miniatures game and a strategic board game. Those dice are as innovative an idea as Columbia's "block games" are in a lot of ways - they're sort-of-miniatures that have the bulk of their own combat rules inscribed right on them, and the way they move around an abstract map (also made of dice) is very much like an area-movement wargame. Underrated game IMO, although the random-packed collectable aspect is as vile as it gets and combined with the sheer strangeness of it to doom any hope of getting real long-term traction, I think. Still has a rabid fan base and last I looked everything is kind of in production/available to this day, and there were even some post-TSR releases covering new armies that combined the "color blends" that didn't get used in the old days.
Shockingly, the novels even gave the setting some character. They weren't what I could call good reads, but they did flesh the world out pretty well and highlighted some of the more unique game elements. The idea of Dwarven elemental masters transporting mammoth-riding ultra-heavy cavalry via underground lava flows to launch surprise attacks from below sticks in my head to this day.
Well worth a vid if you're up for it.
They do are an interesting idea, and I really like how you describe them as miniatures inscribed with their own rules. It’s quite an inventive game in a lot of ways, and probably does deserve more discussion. Completely agree with you though, the collectible aspect was such a dangerous fad, it really destroyed a lot of otherwise great games. I know we’re not totally away from it theses days, but I’m glad it feels less prevalent
@@jordansorcery I was strongly reminded of Dragondice when Mage Knight first came out. It's much more of a traditional minis game, but the idea of having all the figure stats as part of the model (or at least its base) is very much akin to the way the dice incorporated most of what you needed to play them in their very structure. Perhaps its more accurate to think of Dragondice as very elaborate counters or tokens than minis as such, but there were elements of gameplay (trying to fight on favorable terrain, deciding when and how to divide your forces up between locations, even the way you had to balance maneuverability (for manipulating the terrain die) and magic/missile/melee strengths all felt more like an abstract minis rules system than a board game to me.
An odd and quite innovative game design concept, and while it wasn't quite unique it saw more success than any of the (few) other collectable dice games that came out.
Is there a how to play type video for this ruleset?
I loved it more than any other D&D ruleset. The main problem with it was the combat system was unplayable. The Marvel Saga system fixed that problem, but by then they had sold the company and eratta or a new version never came out to fix it. Quite a shame. I still love many things about it. Still hate all versions of D&D.
They took a popular world that was based in a game system, and rather than doing the intelligent thing of fleshing out the world they did a double reboot and switched the game system. It was a dumb decision in a time of TSR making many dumb decisions. Maybe 5th age and the saga system were great but while I could scrape together enough DL fans to play in the original setting, I had no chance finding enough for the 5th age and on top of that running a different rules system, it just wasn't going to happen.
I never played 5th Age ( I've only ever played one session of D&D in the DL setting under the 3rd edition rules), but I was a fan of the original DL trilogy (chronicles). I didn't like the first age of mortals novel.
i bought it when it first came out. I never really got a chance to play it...and to be honest, my only real memory of the system was how predatory it felt. 12+ books for one campaign setting, and most of them having advanced options for magic, melee, rogues, etc, only made it the more insulting. You could get by with just the core, but it felt incomplete...and those other releases filled in the sizeable gaps. To go from the 3 core books of AD&D, to needing nearly 10 just to have a fleshed out base...seemed greedy. Thats when i started using T$R.
It definitely suffered from that approach which felt so prevalent in the 90s, splitting important rules across a fair few books. Each of the 5A books did offer great content though so it wasn’t as bad as some cases in my opinion. My fear now though is that the ‘under monitised’ talk with see current D&D go even further in that direction!
@Jordan Sorcery ya, that comment brought back 5a memories. If you are going to sell 10 books for a setting, they better offer something. If you are just going to break up base content and charge full price?? Miss me with that shit.
Thank you!
I enjoyed 5th Age. It was fun.
Me too, it was an interesting system and a different take on a familiar world - maybe just a little too different for most!
Little Jordan Sorcery, that's funny.
ADandD first edition is THE greatest incarnation of ADandD
Nah, second edition was the bee's knees.
☺️
I now remember that growing up I saw the name "Dragonlance" in advertisements in my comics and video game magazines but I didn't really know what it was since unfortunately I've never played a pen&paper RPG (Baldur's Gate and its sister CRPGs were my only exposure). This helps me understand the history a bit more!
I always loved the ad for Fifth Age that ran in magazines (and I think comic books too) of a D20 with a roll of 1 and "Damn!" written beneath it, with the tagline "great idea, bad roll". It really sold the idea (to me at least) that this RPG would put more of story in your hands as players. Glad you got something out of this history, it's a game that I think got unfairly lost through the cracks of time
The greatest mistake in DND history is being bought by Wizards of the Greed, no contest.
Was it Dragonlance? No. Was it AD&D? No. Was it liked? No. .. so glad I was not into AD&D, replacing a liked gaming system, destroying a loved setting, explains those savoury comments I would hear in the game shop.. not a move I'd do if I worked at TSR, maybe it contributed to their financial trouble. Should have done SAGA as its own product line with its own setting, it looks weird to me and reminds me of the Baron Munchaussen game, being a maverick and telling tall tales.
My experience with Dragonlance, never played it .. but my local game shop did get the imported first edition of Dragons of Autumn Twilight with the Elmore cover, I got it based on that cover art, loved it, thankfully Penguin stepped in with the rest. When TSR released the original Chronicles trilogy and the twins Legends trilogy in hardback collected editions, upgraded my Penguin paperbacks. Weis & Hickman Dragonlance was really entertaining, well paced exciting fun pulp fantasy adventures. Couldnt say about the other hundreds of spinoff books but the Weis & Hickman stories entertain me, no Fifth Age.
There were definitely some...unusual...decisions being made by TSR at the time! I have a lot of sympathy for the Fifth Age design team though, given that they weren't expecting to inherit the world of Krynn in quite that state! But then Weis and Hickman got short-changed by the decision to cut the war of chaos down to one book as well! Basically a series of dubious choices that didn't work out for TSR or anyone else. At least I got a lovely little game collection out of it though!
If you had more dragon puns the video would drag on forever.
Ok, this one tipped the scales!
Ah yes, the SAGA system. I never played it but immediately took a dislike to it. I hate cards with my RPG and I like dice. There's a variety of reasons but I still don't like cards for RPGs unless the RPG is exclusively cards with no character sheet, no book, only cards.
That’s interesting, is that because you prefer the tactile nature of dice rolls or the random aspect for example, or is it something else that drives the preference? Outside of SAGA there’s a few card mechanics I’ve also enjoyed in RPGs, like in Deadlands for instance, so I don’t mind either approach myself
@@jordansorcery There's tons of reasons why I don't like it and it's all in the past so I don't even remember all of them. One reason is, I don't want to mix character sheets and cards. It's a mess to keep track of.
Another reason is this BS about being able to decide when you succeed. Shit happens. This is very important as it is a primary aspect of life. No matter how much you plan and want success, shit happens. That's what dice are for.
There's a ton of other reasons and I could write a full book on it but the bottom line is cards and RPGs are not a good thing. Note that I did not come up with this on a whim. I've tried plenty of RPGs that use cards and every time it's: This might be good if they did not use cards.
I am not saying that you or anyone else should not play these RPGs, I'm saying that I've tried enough to say I don't like thgem and I've purged most of the reasons why from my memory and moved on accumulating other, more pleasant information. I don't have to know WHY I don't like them, I just have to remember that I don't like them.
the dragonlance novels were decent enough
The title of this video has not aged well…
And then some!
The 5th Age story ruined Dragonlance. War of Souls made it worse. SAGA rules might have been decent, but my friends and I had no interest in playing DL after the events of Dragons of Summer Flame. The setting jumped the shark. It's as simple as that.
No....dice. In D&D.
Fate cards work beautifully in Malifaux...almost the same system. But not D&D.
Oh, I think the attempted OSR takeback earlier this year is worse...
I think they saw my video and then said "hold my ale"
it was a mistake. NO one wants to play pre-made characters. The world is also not as good as Greyhawk setting
I'd be really interested to see the sales figures for AD&D Dragonlance compared to the other settings out at the same time - I'd have thought the same as you, that most people would want to play their own characters, but DL's longevity and the success of movie inspired games like Star Wars over the years also make me wonder if people do enjoy playing established characters a lot as well
Change for the sake of it
Disastrous failure or ahead of its time? Cue the Why Not Both meme.
And while I know that Dragonlance supposedly had a huge fan base and sold big numbers, I never met anyone personally who actually played in the setting. Not one, and I've been playing D&D since the Seventies. Every single other setting TSR published, loads of people. Dragonlance? Zero. I know people who bought stuff for it, sometimes quite a lot of stuff, but they didn't use it, it just sat on the shelf. They didn't even mine the setting for ideas - I've seen giff walking around folks' Forgotten Realms and muls and thri-kreen in Oerth and Planescape, but tinker gnomes? Nowhere to be seen. Never.
Whole setting has always felt like it was built of pure hype to me, although I know objectively someone must have been playing the damn thing. Just not anyone I gamed with, apparently.
Ha, indeed! I agree tbh, it was innovative and bold, but just as often flawed and misguided!
That’s a really interesting point, and come to think of it I don’t know anyone outside my own immediate group that dabbled in DL either. Forgotten Realms always felt like the default, with some of the other settings getting mentioned here and there. I wonder if DL groups/players weren’t as accessible because they were by necessity playing in long campaigns with each other!
Story’s were ok , game system was a mess
I quite enjoyed a lot of the mechanics, but it was definitely not perfect. Was it just the general system that didn't work for you, or specific aspects?