"WHAT Happened In there?!" The Nightmare of Saudia Flight 163
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
SOURCES
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Sources:
Final Report:
lessonslearned....
• 16th Nov 1989, the day...
• Holiday Airfare Wars 1985
commons.wikime...
www.saudia.com...
bartonmalow100...
• Saudi Arabia 1955 Stre...
• 1960 e 70 Vintage Air...
/ the-tragedy-of-saudia-...
www.hardlandin...
ksaexpats.com/...
forums.flights...
www.gsa.gov/re...
commons.wikime...
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Pls pin
Thank you, I asked about this video about 1 and half years ago, and you reply “ I got you sir”. Thanks you once again Peter.
😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢😢@@JoséPontes-q2f
Congratulations on reaching 2 million subscribers Petter.
@@JoséPontes-q2f lol
Hi, I’m a former cabin attendant who gave 32 years of my life to this profession. I would like to thank you with all my heart for the words of gratitude and admiration towards this amazing people who had been killed in this horrible tragedy. I watch all your videos and I an a subscriber to your channel, and I always admire that you mention the cabin crew and praise them. Thank you on behalf of all cabin attendants. We are not just servers!
I know well that the cabin crew's primary responsibility is passenger safety and I appreciate their professionalism.
I will say that this channel, and age, has greatly improved my respect for cabin crew. It was unfortunately rather typical but as i have learn more, i have understood how wrong i was.
Mentor Pilot is indeed doing on amazing job praising the cabin crew in majority of his videos. I would have never realized what is going on in the back without his videos. "Documentary" series like Air Crash Investigation barely ever showed any work is cabin crew. Kudos to you and all other cabin crew members for doing this amazing job keeping everyone on board safe.
When I was a little kid, I never saw the cabin crew as servers. I always saw them as security for stupid (or evil) passengers and the type of folks you wanna be around when things go wrong. Asking them for a drink/snack was a bonus. lol. But I never really learned how much training cabin crew goes through, or the detail of what they do normally, until watching Mentour.
OK. I have called one a waitress in her flying restaurant, but she knows she is much more than that.
She also knows that I think it is a valuable job.
The level of incompetence shown by so many people involved in this accident is just unbelieveable!!!!!!!
Yeah, this was very bad…
Can't say I'm surprised.
My initial impression of the behaviors of the pilot caused me to consider whether this was intentional homicide. The details Petter arranges create a lesson that is easily forgotten: that there are many instances where the lack of training caused the crew to make incorrect decisions. The incompetence is the lack of preparation, which is often times only obtainable in hindsight. To frame it this way: the flight was full. 300 smart affluent people chose that airline. How can we tell when airlines are so desperate that they put the wrong people in command; or choose to operate a flight with improper ground support? We need more cultural insights into the airlines.
@davecrupel2817 honestly I can say I'm surprised. I've been watching these kinds of aviation disasters videos for years and I don't think I've ever seen a more incompetent crew.
@@gregoryb.9630It was in 1980. Aviation was still a new industry all over the world, barely 20 years, especially in less developed countries. Things have changed a lot. As Petter explained here, the accidents from the 1970s and 1980s - their investigations, and the processes that resulted - have allowed the fantastic safety records we experience nowadays. And pretty much all international airlines operate under the same standards now. Might be another story if you fly domestic in Nepal or Congo.
I think this is the first time I’ve been left speechless by one of your videos. I mean, what were the crew thinking? Their ineptitude cost over three hundred lives. Totally unbelievable.
I had my mouth open at parts, I don't ever do that! Usually it's one or two mistakes, and unfortunately that's life so you learn from it. But I'm pretty sure I could have got her down and everyone out alive, and I've never been in a fucking cockpit. At least I would have tried the term unbelievable is correct.
I’m just sitting here in silence after watching this. Going to feed my dog so I don’t neglect him, like the pilots did to those pour souls behind them.
Totally insane. The plane lands successfully yet everybody dies.
that is the one and only time that ever has happened in aviation history.
Insane is an understatement. God knows what the pilots were thinking.
They weren’t thinking. They were going through the standard proceedures, retreating into basic training.
I was shocked when I heard this too. Fire in mid air usually ends in a crash. They managed to land the plane safely and yet nobody survived. Crazy.
Not a million miles away from that British Airtours incident. Didn't even leave the ground and people died.
Honestly, when you said that the cabin crew left a trail of empty fire extinguishers while trying to save all those people.. I just broke down. I can't imagine the horror they had to go through.
The flight engineer going:
"Just put the fire out :)"
Literally same energy as "Just buy a house"
Or "just get a job"
Or "just be happy"
Alcoholism? Just stop drinking!
Honestly the captain was spot on with his comment about the flight engineer.
At that salary: normal.
I am an uneducated layperson who knows nothing about aviation, I need things explained to me in simple terms.
When Mentour Pilot says, "I would rather face a double engine failure than face this", then you know it's one of the worst things that can happen.
What fuels fire? Oxygen. There is no water pump 40k feet in the air and there is no way to starve the fire without starving ourselves. And the design if aeroplane is by necessity compact; wherever the fire starts it is only a short matter of time before it begins to damage flight controls while filling the whole cabin with smoke. It is not a survivable occurrence unless you can get on the ground in a matter of a few minutes.
@@prismpyre7653 plus a plane with no engines is still a glider. As long as you're not in the middle of the ocean you'll be ok.
@@prismpyre7653 Or the fire is controllable and can be extinguished easily. Thankfully, technology allowed us to be able to avoid passengers from bring inflammable items on board
@@geechisuede98 Even a no engine water landing is likely preferable to an in-flight fire.
@@geechisuede98this is half of the truth. The glide number of a commercial plane is about 15. If you fly at 8km you only have 120km of distance assuming no maneuver
the fact that peter tell he rather lose both of his engines than dealing with an uncontained fire tell show bad an inflight fire could be.
If he loses both his engines he can still operate the airplane like a glider and with a bit of luck (no high hills) he can land on a large enough field.
@@Knotreally This. If there are no obstacles, no engines are fine But if you have mountains or buildings, It's deadly
I rather deal with no engines as a passenger than an inflight fire too.
"could be"? no bruh, there is no 'could' here
@@GoliathFish75 I'd rather never deal with anything. But life isn't like this unfortunately
48:12 the final minute of this video was lovely, acknowledging the unsung, and often overlooked heroes. Thank you for that.
The least prestigious, least acknowledged, and of course, lowest paid went above and beyond even though they had no leadership or guidance.
As someone from Pakistan, specifically Karachi, I wanted to add that people from our country have a very bad tendency to freak out and lose their rationality in cases of panic or stress. It is more than likely that because of that fact, once the plane had landed, there would have been complete and utter chaos. People screaming, getting hurt, pushing and shoving for the exit doors, not knowing that they have to be opened inwards first. It feels cruel knowing that there could have been survivors, not everyone had to perish.
It is so important to maintain a rational head and to listen to cabin crew in case of emergencies like this.
May they all rest in peace.
That has always been my thinking on why no one got out after the plane landed.
Arent you ashamed to be like that ????????
@@snowleopard0412well he’s totally not? *Your* irrationality and illiteracy is showing. Didn’t understand what he said
@@snowleopard0412remember europeans had a great deal of advancement over hundreds of years. Pakistan got dragged out of the iron age in recent memory, and many parts are still woefully underdeveloped.
You can't just make up that half dozen or more generational change with a pamphlet.
In fact nobody would have died if the Flight Crew would have acted as professional as the Cabin Crew.
RIP to all those Victims.
My mom and dad evacuated from an L-1011nin the 1960s. My dad was part of the development team at Lockheed and one of the things that Lockheed had to do was fill up the plane with people and show it could be evacuated within the time limit. My mom and dad volunteered to be some of the people doing the test.
Ahh, that’s very cool!
There was an excellent study done where scientists tweaked the test. They’d recognised that there was no real sense of urgency to the evacuation; people just got up and started for the exit, queueing, polite, etc. So they offered a cash reward to the first people off the plane. That set off what is probably a more realistic scramble - people pushing, climbing over seats, etc. That series of tests demonstrated that under such conditions, aisles and doors needed to be much wider than the standards at the time.
@alexc4300 that's absolutely brilliant. I keep having to stop the video and remind myself it was the 70s and people don't know the things they don't know. What an awful way to die. It's really good to think there were also people like that trying to figure things out and make us all safer. Thanks for sharing.
All aircraft must pass an evacuation with a full load of passengers before certification is given. I grew up in Burbank, California where the L1011 was designed and built, and remember its first test flight from Burbank to Palmdale. This was a big deal at the time. The L1011 was a very good aircraft in it's day.
@@Niteowlette we lived in Chatsworth and my dad worked for Lockheed in the building right next to the airport. The evacuation certification test that my parents participated in was in Palmdale.
About the inflammability of matches: Decades ago at my parents house, there was a sudden strong smell of burning matches. We immediately began looking for the source, couldn't find it, and over the next few hours the odor dissipated. Several years later we were moving some furniture and we found a large box of wooden kitchen matches that had fallen to the floor behind a piece of furniture, ignited, but failed to burn thru the box, then ran out of oxygen and self extinguished.
A cousin of mine was a small town fire chief. He told me once to always beware of matchbooks and boxes. Mice will chew on the paper and can unintentionally spark up a fire. A glass mason jar is a good place to store matches.
@@davecarpenter4917 When I was a kid they were always stored in a tin.
@@frithbarbatsafety matches are now a thing.
The culprit in this situation is the “STRIKE ANYWHERE MATCH”. These are the ones that are white tipped. They were made illegal for sale in the USA in the 60s when I was a kid. All you have to do is drop a box of these matches and they could ignite.
I still see Strike Anywhere matches for sale, but they are indeed dangerous for the reasons described above.
Helpful tip: If you get FIRED twice as a pilot (or recommended to be FIRED), perhaps the cockpit isn't your happy place?
Note to Saudia and any other airline. Not the first time an airline hired an incompetent after failing tests and red flags.
Mates rates everywhere
I think in this case, he got fired for a third and final time.
@@TheBackyardChemist But sadly taking so many lives with him.
@@NicolaW72 Oh yeah. Watching this video is almost scarier than watching a mechanical failure....because all those lives MIGHT not have been lost.
“Captain, the plane is on fire and we are being burned alive. Can we please evacuate?”
Captain: sings in Arabic
Imagine landing, thinking you're safe... but being artificially trapped by an incompetent pilots and crew.. Tragic, truly.
Imagine having airport firefighters and not teaching them how to open the door to an aircraft....
@@penguin12902 Indeed. And not giving them respirators which every volunteer fire department in the countryside has.
And by the incompetent firefighters on ground too!
This incident always disturbs me so much. My father was Lockheed’s F/E Instructor on the Tristar in early 1980, and he was responsible for the final checks and approval of the L-1011 certification for the F/E on the incident flight. He’d also been offered a job with Saudia after he’d provided training to a number of their employees, and we moved to Jeddah about a year after this tragedy. My father told me that he was really distressed as soon as he heard of this incident because he hadn’t been entirely comfortable passing the F/E, whose performance on the simulator was marginal at best, and that decision haunted him for years. I think I’ve still got his logbook in which he recorded the training sessions. It’s one of the incidents my dad (accidentally, I’m sure) used to drive a deep seated fear of flying into me.
This is crazy! Can you tell me more about the F/E? What was he like as a pilot and in general according to your father? Thanks.
@@v16powahhh59 my father didn’t know the F/E as a pilot, he provided instructor training for the F/E’s upgradie to an L-1011 type rating, so he really knew him only in that very limited context. Of course it’s all second hand, and it’s also a very small number of conversations - my dad and I were estranged for most of his life - so I’ve only got the few things my dad said to go on. His main critique was that the F/E wasn’t well prepared, had trouble navigating checklists and memory items, and just wasn’t enough of a natural “problem solver” for the F/E role on the L-1011. He mentioned dyslexia, but that was something he learned about only after the final report. He also talked a bit about his own job pressure… Lougheed was providing some sort of “express” service to Saudia, I guess the airline had made a big purchase commitment for the L-1011 and had a number of people it was trying to get type rated and there was a big push on. Dad implied that he’d felt pressure to pass a marginal candidate, as well as some sympathy for that candidate’s situation, and kind of went with an on-balance decision that the F/E would be okay, so long as he was in a crew with a good pilot and first officer. From what he said what really haunted him was the idea that he’d passed someone he shouldn’t have in hindsight, but that he also didn’t have sufficient information at the time to make the “right” call. And, of course, this event doesn’t all rest on the F/E either, it’s the combination of all three crew, the design flaw in the compartments (my dad went on at length about MANY bad engineering decisions that killed a lot of people with aircraft of that generation and later, hence my fear of flying), integral problems with CRM not yet being a thing, and whoever or whatever packed the cause of ignition… there’s no clear path by which a less marginal F/E would obviously have saved the aircraft, all other things being equal.
It really told me more about my dad then it told me anything about either the F/E or the incident or the culture at Saudia at the time, but it is really strange to have seen the F/E’s name after the fact in my dad’s leather-bound log book.
how is this comment not up higher, @mentourpilot needs to look at this
@@v16powahhh59 My father didn’t know the F/E during the F/E’s time working in a pilot capacity, he only met him in the context of providing the simulator training for his uprating to F/E certification onto the L-1011, so my dad didn’t have a lot to say about the man except for his performance in that context. It’s also second hand information based on a very small number of conversations over a LOT of years (my dad and I were estranged for most of his life), so I can’t provide a lot of reliable detail. What my dad told me was that the F/E wasn’t really prepared, had trouble navigating checklists and memory items to my dad’s standards, and just generally wasn’t enough of what my dad considered a “problem solver” to be a good L-1011 F/E. He also mentioned the dyslexia issue, but as far as I understand it my dad only learned about that issue from the after incident reporting. Mainly what he related to me was more about his own job pressures; I gather Lockheed was providing some kind of “express” training service to Saudia, which had made a pretty big L-1011 buy, and so there were a fair number of crew being rotated through simulator checks at Palmdale in fairly short order. He described hesitating on passing the F/E, but there was time pressure and maybe some political pressure and he had some sympathy for the F/E. What haunted him was the question of whether or not he should have gone with his instincts instead of going with the on-balance sense that the F/E would be okay with a decent and experienced crew, but that he hadn’t known enough background to have tipped the balance towards not passing him. The reality is no one person doomed the flight, it was the tragic combination of those three crew and their decisions and the lack of CRM and the design flaw in the luggage compartments plus the ground crew training and so many other factors that if you just swapped out the F/E with someone without the issues there’s no reason to believe it would have saved those people. My dad was really competent in that role but he wasn’t sure his presence would have changed the outcome either.
All in all it taught me more about my dad then it did about the F/E or the incident or the situation at Saudia back then. It helped explain why he did such a good job over the years I knew him growing up giving me a really serious fear of flying (he was always telling me about engineering issues and maintenance problems), but it is still really weird to have seen the F/E’s details in my dad’s leather bound logbook.
That's gutting. If he was competent, even with the pilot's mental break many could've been saved. Ruins your career being somewhat responsible for letting him through. Damn.
For what it's worth the heroic flight attendants who did the best they could despite the trainwreck of a flight crew. All died as heros:
Fatima Suppialo Francis, age 26
Abden Jafer al-Rahman, age 27
Zorayda Hernandez, age 24
Fauzia Saifuddin, age 24
Ellen Bautista, age 23
Rita Zulueta, age 26
Margarita Sarmiento, age 23
Lorna Bautista, age 22
Alice Manalo, age 23
Anndaleeb Masood, age 20
Louise Henderson, age 21
I hope they rest in peace 💔
So young. Still a whole lifetime to go. No doubt they were trying their best to evacuate the passengers right to the point of their own demise. RIP
@@davecarpenter4917 It's truly heartbreaking... Especially seeing how often they tried to get the pilots to do something useful...
💔😢😔
RIP!❤ Thank you very much for the Memory!
This is by far the craziest air disaster I've ever heard of. I mean, when you realize that at the moment of touchdown that almost everybody was very likely still alive...
I just don't get it... If I'm in that situation once black smoke fill the cabin I do not care what my instructions are I would open the door myself, throw out the closest 10 people and then myself. Every door has instructions on it on how to open them. The airline can always send their lawyers after me but at least I'd be alive...
@@221b-l3t I think you are underestimating just how intense the smoke got once those ac packs were shut off. The entire cabin was very likely just instantly filled with smoke so thick that you could not breathe, let alone see enough to find a door. Even if you managed to have the foresight to hyperventilate before the smoke came, held your breath long enough to try to reach the door, and already knew precisely how to open it, I seriously doubt you are going to be able to make it down the aisle that is likely already filled with other people and trash and debris. People were fighting each other before they even landed.
@@221b-l3t The pilots let the plane roll down the runway during those minutes the flight attendants needed to get the doors open. By the time the plane actually stopped, it was too late.
@@TheTonyMcDI can only speak for myself, but when I’m in an exit row, I know how to operate the door. I can hold my breath for 30 seconds at bare minimum with no preparation, and groping in the dark for the handle wouldn’t be all that much of a hurdle if it was that serious a situation.
Very depressing story considering that all those lives could have been saved.Thanks for the excellent presentation though.
I was an FAA engineer in a Civil Aviation Assistance Group in Spain 10 yrs. I had 2 FAA coworkers there that had worked in Saudi Arabia. One of them told me the most amazing incident while he was in Saudi Arabia was a passenger in the rear who actually built a fire on the floor in the aisle to make tea. I don’t know the date or flight number, but it would have been in the late 1970’s or early 1980’s.
It is sometimes attempted nowadays- the most secluded even literal cave dwelling tribe members still wish to take the pilgrimage, and that they have holy protection.
The hoteliers in Malaysia have similar stories abt Arab tourists back in the early 2000 too
Well, tea is important! I'd believe that this had happened.
I worked for Saudia in Riyadh in the mid 80’s and still remember the night that we were asked to go to the old airport to rob a hydraulic line off Hotel Kilo, which was still there on its belly surrounded by an earthwork enclosure. As much as it was a confronting sight for myself, it really unsettled my Filipino colleague who was there the night it actually happened in 1980 and he said he would never be able to forget the smell of all things. He couldn’t bring himself to touch the aircraft, so sat in the truck whilst I took the part off. That had to be one of the most surreal experiences of my aviation career, well that and the time I had to rob a case drain filter housing off a crashed Iraqi Airways B737 to make one of our aircraft serviceable. The Middle East sure was an interesting place to work in back then.
I wish I was around back then, it feels like you guys were real people with healthy minds and actions that can affect the world. Now we're all puppets and every country is the same and they all authoritarians, now even malls have that much control on shoppers.
Cabin crew, as a profession, really don't get the respect they deserve. In so many accidents, the only reason anyone survived at all was that the cabin crew kept the passengers calm and facilitated fast evacuations from the plane. Even where there were no survivors, cabin crew frequently distinguish themselves - be they the cabin crew here, or Betty Ong and the other cabin crew members on 9/11, cabin crew members are often unsung heroes.
They don't get respect, or even minimum wage! They really need to unionize
My father was a civil engineer from the US working with many expats in Saudi Arabia with a company called CCC, building their infrastructure. He was there in Riyadh airport and witnessed the fire taking place. They had tractors and other equipment on hand and offered to use them to break through the fuselage of the plane to get the passengers out, but the authorities denied any efforts to do so, so they were forced to watch the plane burn to the ground. My father has told us this story over the years, but this is the first time I’m seeing it documented.
Nope, expats. Saudi Arabia hires foreigners (expats) for the majority of their technical jobs and as domestic servants. They are not immigrating, they are just working a contract. I worked a two year contract in their shipyards in the 80’s.
@@secondace9495 Immigrants move to a foreign country to live there permanently, while expats move to a foreign country and live there only for the duration of their employment. We lived in Saudi Arabia for only three years.
@@secondace9495there really isn't a definition of who is an expat and who is an immigrant. By the dictionary, expats don't intend to stay permanently and immigrants do, but that doesn't work in places that don't allow permanent migrants but still use the term.
In reality, the word immigrant has connotations of low class, low wealth and searching for upward mobility , while expat has connotations of high skill, high wealth and high status.
Low skilled poor workers and people of color tend to be labeled immigrants , while high skilled wealthy and typically white people tend to be labelled as expats.
@@secondace9495 Expats live in a foreign country for the duration of their employment, not permanently!
@@TheSkcube I thought the definition was that expats moved to the country mainly because their employer assigned them there, while immigrants moved to the country for more personal reasons. A highly skilled, wealthy person who just wanted to move to a different country would still be an immigrant because no employer assigned them there.
Congrats on 2 million Mentour! Well deserved!
Thank you so much! It’s crazy… 💕
Wow! That was FAST! I was watching when Petter hit the ONE million mark....and it wasn't that long ago!
Yeah, it feels like 1M wasn't that long ago
Yes! Also a watcher from back in the day, with the couch, red and green pillows, and cute pups. I hope Petter does a little video talking about his (and his team’s) journey, while seated on his old couch! Hope the pups are still doing well too! 🐶🐶
@@Emm325 I always did like the pillows and the pups 💜
I lost it at the firefighter incompetence. Jesus christ how many people were involved in this incident that should have never been 10m near an airport is baffling. Makes you really appreciate how much things improved.
The true criminals are the pilots. Following an emergency landing due to an on-board fire with a call of ‘don’t evacuate’ is unfathomable and unforgivable
Rest in peace, everyone.
I was going to comment about you not mentioning those heroes (flight attendants), but you thankfully did.
I have massive respect for them.
As a pilot, even though I don't fly anymore, I cant believe the captains behavior during this entire thing. Blows my mind. I never had an in flight emergency but I still can't believe this.
I have often wondered if sheer disbelief is the reason that people deny that horrific events have happened.
As a retired banner pilot, I've had many in-flight emergencies (small planes are much more subject to failures than passenger jets). Remaining calm is crucial to surviving and not making a mistake, but remaining too calm is deadly, as is shown here. Early in my career I flew one plane that was notorious for engine troubles, and the tower got used to me saying "glider 86AB is landing again" during maintenance test flights over the runway. 🤣
It´s indeed mind-blowing.
I have lived under Islam in the UAE. Men are raised steeped in a sense of shame and inadequacy.
You'll notice most of the disastrous crew failures in this channel's videos involved Arab or if not Muslim nationality.
It's hubris and pride born of a fear of ostracism from the group.
@@GodelFishbreath That's a regular factor in accidents of all types. I know from personal experience of a car accident that your initial behaviour when faced with an unexpected emergency is often not rational and the true magnitude doesn't sink in until much later. People often act stunned and go through the motions of what they would normally be doing - eg the frequent examples of passengers collecting their luggage in an evacuation. Trained professionals on the other hand will say 'I didn't think about it, my training just kicked in'.
What makes me more angry than this whole thing is the fact that they literally landed, it’s not like they crashed, THEY LANDED.
ALL THEY NEEDED TO DO WAS TO APPLY MAX BRAKING AND EVACUATE. Unbelievable.
It's so baffling
yeah it took a while for me to realize they were actually going to get the plane on the ground, and THEN everyone was going to burn. Kind of amazing how long the plane flew with hardly an issue with a fire raging.
It's so heart-breaking for those poor passengers and flight attendants.
Crashing would've given them a much higher chance. Turning of the ventilation, not bothering to turn off the engines or evacuate, insanity.
Yes, exactly!
this story has always fascinated me. to make it to the ground intact and to still have no survivors, its just so eerie.
Gawd that's heart wrenching. Despite all the screw ups by the flight crew they still made it onto the ground, stopped, and everybody died being able to see the ground and safety as they choked on the smoke. This has to be one of, if not the most, depressing review you've done. Not a bad thing, just very very sad.
Lovely words about the cabin crew at the end. It was like they were in a fighting withdrawal, keeping the smoke and fire at bay as long as they could. So tragic they didn’t get out
Another well-made, well narrated, and well researched video. As a firefighter paramedic of 30 years, I can toss out a few observations I've encountered and learned. *Fire can double in size every minute *Plastics and foam items are basically "frozen gasoline" and are incredibly flammable and release some of the most toxic smoke *Fire protection and suppression is always given a back seat to most other factors when designing a building...or an aircraft *Extreme measures are taken to toy with numbers and square footage to avoid or alter Fire detection and suppression systems *In an emergency people will 1. Panic and resort to animal behavior 2. Disengage, disbelieve, and become comatose 3. Resort back to what's comfortable rather than face problem. 4. Deny, there's an issue and fall to confirmation bias. Fires happen ....emergencies happen. When flying, don't wear polyester material. Keep your shoes on (real shoes, not flip flops) while taking off and landing. Observe your exit options, review the emergency material EVERY FLIGHT and pay full attention to the flight staff. Their number one job is your safety and not catering to your every need and hear you complain. Great job as always Mentor!!
I do that, but I'm not worried about myself. It's the other passengers that would block me because they didn't read and panic. You're never getting a room or plane full of people to behave properly. You can evacuate if there's plenty of time and well trained personnel around, but not with a fire like this.
@@VincentGroenewold "You are never getting..." exception: they are Japanese.
Reasons to read the comments, thanks a lot for the advisories!
Thank you, making a note! While realising my fire survival mainly depends on other people...
I was present at the Bradford City stadium fire in the UK in 1985. That fire went from "some visible smoke" to "entire stadium ablaze" in well under 5 minutes. The fire brigade was called *by accident* when the fire was still very small and appeared manageable, arrived within 3 minutes, and still found a complete stand on fire. 56 people died that day.
Fire is no joke.
I have been to Saudi Arabia many times, doing business and consulting with Saudia Airlines. Absolutely no part of this story surprises me in the least. The old saying "they could screw up a one car funeral procession" springs to mind. That is all I will say on the matter.
I also know the L1011 better than most. I worked on almost 25% of the total L1011's ever produced at Delta Air Lines as a mechanic and did extensive mods to them as an avionics engineer. It was a very complicated aircraft that was absolutely the most sophisticated aircraft when it was produced. Even when it was retired it had the smoothest autoland in the sky. But again, it was super complex and you did not want anything but the best pilots flying it.
Thank you for your input!
@@MentourPilot Thanks! Love your videos. This one was gut wrenching though because I know the L1011 and I know Saudis. A culture of arrogance, butt covering, and nepotiam, combined with an airplane that pushed technology and standards was a fatal combination.
@@acars9999sadly, what you say is the terrible truth. I hope things have changed since then.
@@acars9999 Openly said: The behaviour of the Flight Engineer was very strange, too, and he had another cultural background. Of course he suffered from his illness but nevertheless - and even knowing that he had not the medical capability for this profession.
I was going to comment that, after living in Saudi just 9 years ago, sounds like Saudi being Saudi. And the heroes were the Filipinos… which, again, sounds like Saudi. Those poor people. This was heartbreaking!!
The famous photo of the burned out plane with the desert backdrop is so haunting knowing so many people died trapped inside 😔
Now add lithium batteries to every seat. Would it be worth adding an external fire sprinkler inlet similar to power and air?
@@gregoryb.9630well that explains the rather ominous warning I saw on my last flight in Finnair telling passengers to stop using their device if it overheats and to let the flight crew know.
@@gregoryb.9630That’s most likely not going to happen. It would be prohibitively expensive and it would weight down the plane.
Really the only option is to prevent passengers from taking on batteries onboard cargo and make sure that the batteries carried into the cabin don’t have a chance to start a fire
@@gregoryb.9630 never thought of that cause im afraid to fly
The FO ( الله يرحمة و يغفرلو ) is my friends first cousin. Really crazy incident. In saudi we grew up hearing this story but never really understood the “aviation” details. Now im an FO in saudia and it gets more shocking and tragic.
Crazy ...is that all you can say ???????
As an officer you may wish to reassure the public on the safety, security and cultural changes in Saudi to avoid pilots like these, and not imply it was unavoidable.
@@snowleopard0412well, he may have gotten his job with the same connections.
@@snowleopard0412he also literally said “shocking and tragic” but you’re blind ig
@@mandowarrior123 With your comment, you sounded like that Saudi is the only airline that had tragic incident like this.
😮 the way you relayed this story and never once swore or really criticised is evidence of your professionalism and that no doubts you are very good at poker. The ineptitude was catastrophic imo. Tragedies are bad enough without failures to address them. Thank you mentor pilot. Regards
the moment the Captain was singing, you just knew everyone was going to die. He was in such denial he neglected to recognize it was really really freaking bad.
I heard from very old documentary, that he was singing an Arabic Funeral March or something.
I mean, you can be the sort of person who sings to stay calm in a crisis and still be competent; that isn't the issue it's that these guys did not belong in a cockpit at all and only ended up there because of corruption and patriarchy.
Yeah, kind of like he'd lost grasp of reality and went to his happy place. What a sad, sad story. Bravo Zulu to the flight attendants who realized the gravity of the situation. Unbelievable. RIP to all those poor souls.
Probably some religious hymn as well
I understood his singing and behaviour like a brain freeze. I do not think this is a denial, or giving up. I am sure this is some other form of mental problem/reaction. When the person, maybe because some previous experiences, maybe at childhood, learned this kind of reaction to stress, danger, etc.
What gets me is the attitude to safety. Even with the flight crew being incompetent, had their immediate reaction been "uh-oh let's declare emergency and return immediately just in case" they might have been able to save everyone.
That actually was their reaction, mostly. In my opinion the problem was that they were too incompetent to follow through effectively, and ended up just wasting time, instead of taking effective action.
That would have saved many minutes - but even more baffling is wasting the minutes after *you are all safely on the ground*.
@@vasilivh They first discussed if a fire alarm was really a fire alarm and then went through pages for in total 4 minutes meanwhile climbing higher and flying farther away.
@@ouwebrood497 this is true, but no other options than returning to Riyadh were really on the table (aside from a moment of wishful thinking that they could just continue). It just took too long to actually DO something, like they couldn't commit to the one course of action they had
Thanks for making video on this accident. One of my relatives had lost his life in it. Very close to my heart. It remained a mystery. Hardly anyone ever explained it with such details. Love from Pakistan ❤
I'm sorry for your loss.
So sorry.
I remember this tragedy well because my dad was working at the UAL Training Center in Denver (DENTK) at the time, instructing cabin crews on emergency procedures. I remember him having to go over this story in excruciating detail, and one of the things I know they looked at was the fact that the L1011's main cabin doors...like all of the "Jumbo"/widebody doors are power actuated as opposed to the older, narrow-body doors that are manually actuated. The doors on the L1011 (and DC-10, B747 and 767) are actuated, then swing in and UP...whereas the older models swing in and OUT. The question was, "Was there such a mass panic and crush that would jam the doors from being able to move "up" as people tried to get "out." My dad's department was focused on Crew training to manage and evacuate passengers and so they were really concerned about how the entire crew worked to evaluate the emergency and what actions they took (or didn't take) that resulted in the tragedy.
Later, I react badly to this story because my dad finished his career as a FE/2nd Officer on DC-10's (also for UAL). The Flight Engineer is such an important position...and here the FE utterly failed in his job. Every so often you can find accidents where the FE was ignored (like UAL 183 in Portland) or where the FE failed in his job and killed everyone. The FE should have been managing the aircraft systems and he may not have been "in control" of the situation, but his mismanagement of the situation killed everyone on that airplane.
One year prior to this incident, another flight on the same route from Jeddah to Karachi, operated by PIA 740, experienced a similar fire caused by gas stoves. My grandfather was among the passengers on that flight. Unfortunately, the aircraft was unable to land and exploded mid-air. My father told me that, at that time, it was customary for pilgrims to carry gas stoves with them. There were no inspections or instructions from the airport staff regarding these stoves. It was norm those days.
This was always the most baffling air disaster. The pilots were just morons.
It was moreso the manifestation of existing systemic issues in broader Airline/industry/nepo/safety/training. Even after this incident it took several more including ValueJet for the US to care about cargo fires etc
I'd say the flight/personnel planners were even worse.
Each of these crew-members should have had a notation in their files that they should only be paired to experienced collegues, yet instead they ended up together..... pretty much a "the lame leading the blind" scenario.
The Saudis need SOMEWHERE to park their surplus failsons.
As a passenger I would have found it impossible to not decide to open an emergency door myself. As long as I wasn't already overcome by smoke while the plane was moving.
@@volvo09Unfortunately, that is likely what had happened. The pilots may have access to their own independent oxygen system, but the passengers only have a few minutes of emergency oxygen designed specifically to help with sudden decompression, not fires.
Hello! I am 15 years old and hugely into aviation. I'm not hesitant to say that your videos have inspired my love for aircraft and how they work to the core. Thank you so much!
I'm the same (except the age)
Exactly the same here
hi im 3 years younger than you the rest is the same
Im also 15 and his videos have inspired me a lot
Same aswell
A panicked and uncontrolled crowd would definitely push for the exits without knowing that the door must be first pulled inwards to be opened therefore making it impossible to open the doors. This is similar to that theater fire in the US that lead to the regulation that all fire exits must open outwards, but of course it’s not possible on an aircraft. I imagine the flight crew could and would have opened the doors if there were enough space for them to do so.
@itopaloglu - Beverly Hills Supper Club, Southgate, KY, just south of Cincinnati, OH. 165 died. Including large chunks of families. May 1977. The mention and memory of it still send shock waves through this area. The land stands vacant; multiple attempts to redevelopment it have been unsuccessful.
That makes perfect sense, yeah
Thanks for explaining why _seemingly_ nobody tried to overrule the captain's suicidal order :')
I'm a now retired flight attendant (37 years in the industry). The flight attendants on this flight were likely overcome by toxic smoke and had passed out. There were no portable breathing hoods as required emergency equipment in 1980. Thankfully, there have been many airline safety improvements in the last 40 years.
What about the doors above the wings? Don't they open outwards?
@@user-bl1rr2il3z not sure what type of doors those were, but it's very difficult to operate any emergency exit if 20 people are on top of you. More likely though, the cabin was already filled with smoke to the point that the wing exits were unsurvivable.
A synopsis at 13:47: all 3 crew members had previously washed out of training. They were rejected as flight crew candidates due to (unspecified) deficiencies. Their further training and subsequent crew placement was based on illogical decisions by uninformed "authorities". This is a common theme in disaster scenarios.
If I remember right, at least one of the flight crew (The Captain I think) had some relation to Saudi Royalty and used that connection extensively to protect his career.
that combo of 3 pilots is just diabolical
Yeah burning alive is probably the worst way to die and that story is really tragic and sad
Everyone died due to smoke inhalation.
You will likely die from the smoke before you are burned alive.. but that’s not much better 😞
I remembered this story wrongly I thought that passengers wore oxygen masks
I'm still watching (they're taking off), but I assume it's before mandatory oxygen masks. I'm waiting to find out. The smoke alarms going off!
@@zeus866If the masks are deployed but some aren't being used by passengers, what is that oxygen going to do to a cabin fire?
I heard this story during training. One of the most heartbreaking, completely avoidable disasters in aviation history.
Airplanes are incredibly safe, but are also the only transport method scarier than a ship, in the event of a fire.
Yeah, fire is pretty much the worst thing that can happen in an aircraft
@@MentourPilot Also true of ships. It's just much, much worse for an aircraft.
At least on a ship you're surrounded in something that can extinguish it. In a plane, you are fuel and the air you're flying on is also fuel and you're surrounded by fuel and then literal fuel in the wings etc. Just bad.@CiaranMaxwell
Spacecraft > Submarine > Airplane > Ship
@@ravennightingale1260 Can't you just blow ballast and surface in a submarine?
@mentourpilot’s birthday is coming up in 20 days…let not forget him on that special day, for we are all grateful for his channels.
Every time Peter says, "and that's worth remembering," I get nervous. Also, I'm always shocked about early guesswork to make rules as opposed to science and testing. Great video
As a US Air Force troop, I deployed to Riyadh in late 1981 as part of the US Military Training Mission to Saudi Arabia. The burnt out remains of Saudia Flight 163 were still there, just off the runway.
"We will never know for sure" is such an unnerving foreshadowing...
Yeah, from that moment you know that, whatever else happens, the captain didn't make it.
@@phueal we did get a fake out once from that, in fairness.
@@mandowarrior123 in which video?
The Three Stooges of Aviation. These 3 muppets being put inthe same cockpit was always going to end in disaster.
😞😞
examples of industry training and culture moreso. Institutional practices across airlines or countries, communication gaps between even best pilots have variable obedience to hierarchies or ad-hoc thinking? The same problems occur in military (read "Armies of Sand" by Pollack) or all across Manufacturing, Medical and other sectors.
At some point we do stop blaming muppet pilot/doctor/operator and instead change the rules & system itself
I wonder if religious principles could also have played a role? Such as thinking that "god", "allah" or whoever would solve the problem for you and if not, just let it happen and accept your fate?
I guess they were drilling holes in the swiss cheese of safety
@@toltect3744 No, in Islam, a Moeslim must try our best first, if after trying our best the end result didn't go according to what we hope for, then we give our fate to God.
Your narration of this tragedy is so professional. Absolutely inspiring the way you acknowledged the flight attendants!
Stunning incompetence by the Capt.
I just saw the Mayday episode of that incident. I couldn’t believe how casual the pilots were treating the emergency.
What season and ep
@callumery119 Yeah I was gonna ask the same. I've seen all of them but have never seen this incident featured
I don’t know if applicable here but I have witnessed Egyptians barely react to crisis. When I asked about it the explanation was belief in preordained destiny. Fighting events that unfold therefore is to defy God’s will.
@@callumery119season 24, episode 8 of Mayday titled "Under Fire"
@@richardkudrna7503 whoever said that is wrong because in our religion we should always do our best never allow ourselves or others be in position of harm so fighting it with everything is a must. In case our livelihoods are at risk every haram (not allowed) becomes halal (allowed). So idk whoever told you this but they’re wrong.
This is the most frustrating aviation accident I’ve ever heard of, and it completely breaks my heart. Some people are not capable of staying level headed in emergencies, and those people should not be given responsibility for the lives of that many other people.
How do you recognise those people in advance?
@@ms-jl6dlexamination
@ms-jl6dl, That's why there is so much psychological testing for pilot suitability now. Increased simulator training contributes to this psychological preparation. It's not a perfect system but pilots do practice a very strenuous and robust mental simulation, so this type of situation doesn't happen.
@@ms-jl6dl Not allowing them to fly as per the rapports also in this case.
@@ms-jl6dl lots and lots of simulator training, especially when faced with unexpected problems. There are many ways to test if someone is good under pressure.
I am no pilot (only flew once in a sea plane for fun haha) but my dad and I are both very good in emergencies. Our brains clear and we enter an extreme state of focus and calm. My mom on the other hand can become overwhelmed easily by the anxiety. However she is great during the aftermath and the long haul, whereas my dad and I will crash as soon as the adrenaline wears off.
Different people’s nervous systems and brain wiring are better for different situations. Of course training can make any person much better at reacting to emergencies, but overall different personality types fit better roles. Either way, lots of emergency training and competency evaluations under pressure should be done. That is what I believe to be the best way to keep people safe. At minimum 1 of the two pilots in a cockpit should be able to score very highly whilst under pressure, whatever that might mean.
It's a problem when positions are allocated according to membership of an important family or having money rather than suitability. Unfortunately, this is not the only case.
This is a prime example of Carelessness by the Pilots… Thank God for the Cabin Crew… God has you in his Grace!
I just got hired by the FAA as an attorney bending my bar results and during the interview I mentioned your videos, which one of the two interviewers had seen! I am confident the enthusiasm I showed in the interview was solely due to these videos and I want to thank you!!
I remember when "Smoke and Fire" procedures changed from 'Working through a long checklist" to solve a problem Vs. GET THIS PLANE ON THE GROUND and evacuate!! This was an excellent explanation of the factors in this disaster. Thanks.
Wait, you mean skip the whole "Let's fly out over the water and enter a holding pattern while we dump a lot of fuel so we do not have to do an overweight landing? I am sure the smoke is not that serious." part?
@@Melanie16040 Yes. Exactly that is meaned.
@@Melanie16040 The flight over the water didn't do them it, they were already lost when the fire started.
Maybe they would've landed in 27 minutes instead of 23 minutes, they had 11.
I seem to remember the Swissair 111 disaster, which occured about one month after I flew on a Swissair MD11. The pilots wanted to dump fuel rather than make a quick landing.
@@Fay7666 What I hear you saying is: That was one of the instances in which an emergency descent followed by off field landing wold have been the proper course of action.
I’m so, so glad that you said what you did at the end about the Cabin Crew. When I first heard about Saudi 163 years ago, the thing that got me most was how those poor cabin crew were absolute left helpless and had no chance of being able to do what they were capable of, because the entire system let them down. The FAA, their pilots, Saudi Airlines….. absolutely nobody had their back. Their training was completely inadequate yet despite that - they all made an outstanding and heroic effort. They were smart and they knew what was needed without anyone in a class room telling them. Yet tragically, that was in vain because they also hadn’t been supplied with adequate safety equipment to assist, an adequately safe aircraft which was their workplace nor was anybody in that cockpit any use or support to them. They must have felt so alone and seen how let down they had been by it all.
The fact that they were all so young and had to go through this absolutely horrific and terrifying death is just heartbreaking. They were in that cabin and faced with that fire and they will have known how bad the situation was. They probably knew there was a chance they wouldn’t get off that plane yet they all tried their best. They used up all their rudimentary equipment, they moved passengers down the cabin and they were all near fire exit doors clearly trying to get to them through the panicking passengers who prevented them in helping everyone.
Theirs is absolutely the most tragic part of this disaster and of all the videos I’ve seen about this incident, you are the first person to draw attention to their devastatingly hopeless situation.
They are indeed, the heroes of this tragedy. I hope that every new cabin crew recruit around the world, learns of their sad fate and knows each of their names. Because of those young ladies, aviation safety was changed for the better forever. I wish they could know that their efforts weren’t in vain after all. On the contrary, their plight changed compartment fire classification and evacuation procedures forever. RIP ladies. Hope you’re always flying high. ❤
Touching. Thanks for writing
@@M_SC Cabin Crew never usually get the recognition they deserve on a lot of aviation channels. They work so hard in such a complicated workspace.
Whenever I see people say things like their job is easy and they get paid to just make tea and sit on a beach, I always challenge them to say how they think they would manage to do their daily job, in a confined metal tube where directional flow and space is limited, where peoples anxieties and frustrations are often heightened, while it wobbles them around all over the place to the point where every piece of equipment they use has to have brakes applied or it be strapped down. And do it all in heels and often thick, tight, uncomfortable uniforms. Where on a 10 hour shift they may have to rotate one spare seat between 14 of them. And that’s just the daily stuff. Because they’re trained to save lives too. And funnily enough, most of the time people either don’t respond to my challenge or reply with some made up BS about how good they’d be at it.
Without the Cabin Crew, pilots couldn’t take those passenger planes anywhere. And I wouldn’t be as safe as can be as a passenger. They’re not just essential, they’re exceptional human beings who choose to do an exceptional job.
We studied this accident when I went to FAA accident investigator school. A lot was learned from this occurrence . You explain it well. Good job Petter!
Please don't stop flying, we need Captains like you. Regards, Isken.
Truly heartbreaking. I was so relieved when I saw the perfect landing with the plane still not engulfed in flames. How excruciating those last few minutes must have been.
The pilots freezing up during the time they needed to be evacuating the plane brings a whole new perspective to the term “flight or fright”.
fight or flight, sorry i gotta quite reading comments
Yeah it's now often called "flight, fight, or freeze", because freeze is also a very common reaction. It comes up a lot in assault cases - the mind simply freezes up and the victim can't do anything.
That may have happened to one or more of the flight crew - particularly the captain.
This is one of the greatest examples of just pure negligence these 301 people did not have to die that day what an utterly avoidable tragedy R.I.P all who died 🪦💔
The worst aviation disaster to not involve an actual crash.
I've watched dozens of Petter's accident review vids. This one really affected me. It is the most chilling.
I think this is the saddest, most horrific accident you have covered yet.
Every single death could've been avoided if just one of those bafoons in the cockpit would've been remotely competent and had taken charge.
Not only did these 3 idiots manage to kill every human on board, they tortured every single one of them to death. Those passengers must have spent so long in absolute panic for their lives. They must've felt the heat of the fire. They must've smelled the poison they were breathing. They must've seen their fellow passenger dying one after the other. And they must have felt so utterly trapped. I cannot imagine the hell they suffered.
the intro is sooo good I can't believe how you still keep increasing quality
We do what we can!
I noticed it too... from the graphics to the sound effects and tension building background music, it's a very well produced video. Well done!
I'll have to rewatch this... Been occupied doing other things...
As a South African this reminded me of the Helderberg disaster, SAA295, where we lost a 747 due to fire. Fires on planes are truly scary.
People have trampled others fleeing from a theater fire. Much less a plane.
Well done Petter for calling out how incredible the flight attendants were.
Compare this incident to the JAL fire after collision in January with the fantastic flight crew as well
JAL was a textbook evac perforned by the flight attendants. Great job!
Shout out to the perfectly behaved PASSENGERS on the JAP flight
why the HELL didn’t they evacuate?? why in the world would you keep anyone on a plane with fire??
so sad
good video as always
As a lifelong 'aircrash investigations' nerd i've got to say the Mentour Pilot production team are punching waaaaaay above your weight. Amazing all around
This is such a weird story....you'd think once you land a burning plane, you hit the brakes like it's nobody's business and make sure you get the people out as soon as possible......I can only imagine the the waiting emergency crews being utterly flabbergasted with the plane calmly passing them..... I think a lot of the blame goes to the utterly disfunctional flightcrew
That, plus I think they still didn't fully realize the extend of the danger. Remember that the engineer saw relatively little smoke (by coincidence) and they assured themselves everything would be fine.
@@VincentGroenewoldhowever, the cabin crew repeatedly told them they needed to evacuate. Part of me feels that they might not have listened to the cabin crew not just because of the language gap but because of the power differential between Saudi/American men and mostly young Filipino women
@@Cybele1986my sentiments exactly!
@@Cybele1986 Indeed. The Captain gave not a single time an answer to the Cabin Crew. Maybe he would have acted differently when not young Filipino Women but an older Arabian Male would have called him in this way.
The American Flight Engineer is a very strange case in its own in this case.
@@Cybele1986 Honestly I wouldn't be so sure because a power gap shouldn't have too much of an influence in this case. If someone tells you there is a fire that can kill you most people are going to minimize their own risks of dying as long as it is plausible enough of a risk.
21:41 as someone with mild dyslexia, I can confirm that dyslexia results in more than just confusion while reading. If it's hard or confusing for you to read something, it often times results in not reading very carefully or having to reread the same words multiple times. It might not have caused the entirety of his situation, but it might have been why he spent as much time as he did just flipping through pages
I have the same, and for me i can course me to read what i want to read or add stuff that is not there. And i can guss that the stress didn't help.
I swear I was going crazy in school, the only one having that same issue.
I think this is obvious but dyslexic ppl shouldn’t be flight engineers considering the job requires a lot of reading especially during crucial high pressure situations. Dyslexia doesn’t limit people from every career, in fact they can do most. But in a high pressure environment where your reading abilities affect whether people live or die, it’s obvious a dyslexic person shouldn’t take that role. If one’s personality/skills/intelligence/mental or physical capabilities dont align with being a surgeon, pilot, grocery store worker, restaurant server, whatever it may be, maybe one should just find a Different Career Path. It baffles me that people deemed clearly unfit for a role will go to such great lengths, bribes, moving to different countries, switching airlines, nepotism, to get a role they are unfit for and potentially dangerously unfit for. Towards the end, it was obvious that they had accepted their own doom, rather than taking the effort to help save lives due to their own blunders.
@@00shivani I don´t know about the last part but according to everything else in your comment: Indeed, exactly!
Is the issue with dislexia trying to make out what you're reading or would you have the same issue if you listened to the information?
I don't think the captain was singing softly in Arabic. I think he was reading prayers in arabic to himself.
I hate it when people pray at the wrong moments. It's OK to pray, but please don't forget to solve the problem at hand.
@@ouwebrood497 Could be panicked or trying to calm himself down
@@Stavrose85still not a good time. There was no time for anything but decisive action
@@thepepchannel7940 Correct but I guess that what's happened to him.
I don’t know if it’s your accent or the immense respect you show for the perils of your chosen profession or maybe even your knowledge and ability to describe the harrowing situations these crews find themselves in but something you’re doing is just “right”. I really appreciate that you give props to those in these emergencies that deserve it such as the young flight attendants in this disaster who gave their lives trying to ensure their passengers safety and wellbeing. Another job well done. I look forward to the next one.
Working 3 years as a cabin crew in middle east I had a chance to experience how reckless local people working in aviation and associated roles can be. And that was 10 years ago😢
"Organizing a titanic effort to battle the inferno, leaving a trail of empty extinguishers in their wake" gave me chills.
I lived in Riyadh back then. they left the burnt out plane on the tarmac for years. You’d see it each time you’d fly.
(Similarly, at one point they had a safety campaign in which they put cars that had been in horrific accidents at intersections. )
At the time, the story was that a passenger had lit a bunson burner stove in the cabin to cook something. folks there weren’t too sophisticated back then.
You say 'back then' but... particularly because its the pilgrimage you get folks who literally lived in a cave all their life still to this day making the flight and still trying similar things.
In a regular situation they'd never choose to fly.
Is the plane still there?
@@diamondgamer893 Nope. Not even the airport is still there! :). Saudi Arabia is going through a huge transformation, including its infrastructure (and airports).
@@diamondgamer893 Nope. Not even the airport is there anymore!
This three previous-washout cockpit is prime example of the swiss cheese model and the fact that you should always consider a) the bigger picture and b) the worst case.
Everyone who allowed these people back in the cockpit, thought it a similar minor issue and never dreamed up the possibility of three of that calibre ending up in one cockpit together and what it would mean.
"One time is no time, until it is the last time" - as a German idiom would say. Meaning: we always excuse doing unwise things by doing them "just once", until that "just once" becomes the moment when it backfires.
Indeed, exactly.
This whole accident results, in large part, from the culture of incompetence and nepotism. Starting with the hiring of the crew, the crew itself, and the incompetence of the firefighters, etc. This culture is still rampant in the region as far as I know.
Yes, there is however a recognition and import of competence more frequently now (though they did that even back then) the issue with pilots is they have prestige.
In civil engineering for example, things are much better as saudis often keep themselves out of everything other than penning the cheques, a lesson learned many, many times over.
Three complete incompetents in the cockpit. What a nightmare. Thank you for another excellent video.
The “after” image of the plane is absolutely horrifying.
OK, so if the Riyadh Airport Fire Department had no training of even simulated fires, what was the point of them even being there? Just as a formality??
To look good
"just put it out"
Checking the boxes, acting as IF they had a well organized firebrigade like any other airport - or no international airline would have landed there (they would have been forbidden by Asian, European, U.S. .... authorities. Plus insurance companies would have denied airlines coverage that would land at an airport that was deficient in safety. Outright ditching the concept of a well equipped fire brigade was not possible. For airlines and agencies it is easier to verify that they did invest - as opposed to knowing how well trained the firefighters really were. *
I do not think the Saudis did not WANT to have a competent brigade. It is just that buying equipment is not nearly enough, and training would have taken a systematic, thoughtful approach over time. And who knows what kind of nepotism stood in the way.
Someone got a cutback from such investments, so importing gear and spending budgets was not the issue. But then doing the drills and working on plans and routines, and taking care of minutae, and maintaining discipline within the workforce ! .... that is boring stuff.
*The airport might have reported "drills" - but maybe they were not ambitious at all in what those drills covered.
I think these days airport security is much better specified, and the airports have to prove that they meet standards in much more detail.
It's really crazy to see how poorly equipped everyone involved was to handle this. I know it's been said multiple times before, but this again shows how the laws and regulations are written in blood. The fact that airport firefighters weren't even trained on how to open an aircraft's door is baffling.
oh gosh the way the flight engineer came back into the cockpit and was like "okay no problem, no problem, no problem." 😭
This story fills me with unspeakable rage. So easily preventable.
I've been caught in a gas flash over when I was 18 working construction. It caught me from my waist up and burned all of my chest, arms, and face. I remember lying in bed for 3 weeks while being tended to by my grandmother. That had to be the worst pain I've ever experienced, and I'm now 48. I can't imagine what these passengers endured and I feel for any who did not succumb to the smoke before they were burned. RIP to all
Yikes. That’s unspeakable. Your grandmother is brave. I’d want to be gone just being beside someone like that. I hope you had better luck after that
@M_SC my grandmother had been a nurse. Every night she would smear silver oxide and vitamin e oil on my burns and every afternoon I had to have the scrub bath which felt like getting burned all over again, to remove the dead tissue and prevent infection. 6 months later in April I went to Marine Corps bootcamp lol, this after Dr's said I'd never be able to handle full sun. I'm almost 49 and I've had a great life mostly. 5 years ago I had surgery for a broken neck I sustained during the Military. I'm basically medically retired at this point due to injuries I've sustained thru the years. But I'm not mad about it lol
I worked for nearly 42 years in a large power plant. Our continuing training often included studies of events from other industries, including aviation. How tragic that so often these events would never have happened had better policies and procedures (especially CRM) been in place at the time; but these accidents were the hard lessons which caused better policies, procedures and training to be developed...they are truly "written in blood".
Getting back on the ground while a fire burns in the aircraft way too long and die, because there is no evacuation procedure is crazy tragic.
By far one of the most intriguing and mysterious air disasters I’ve read about… I’ve been trying to find a documentary about this crash forever. Thank you!
This just makes me angry. The consequences of the utterly negligent and seemingly brain-dead cockpit crew killed everyone on board that airplane for no reason other than complete recklessness and extreme incompetence. There are some people that should NEVER be pilots of anything other than a bicycle, and this crew certainly fits into that category. Why does it take such a preventable tragedy as this to finally make an impact on management that this cockpit crew combination was a ticking time bomb? There are other examples of this management madness that resulted in many deaths and serious injuries from incompetence and negligence that affected thousands of families for the rest of their lives. Sickening and disgusting!
Indeed, exactly. And therefore this horrible tragedy was not only caused by these three guys but by the Airline and their substandard safety management at that time, too.
Your codetta on the heroism of the cabin crew brought tears to my eyes. They didn't deserve what befell them.
everytime i hear about this story it never fails to frustrate me how the pilots treated this situation, they were WAAAY too casual about everything that was going on.
I was a pilot based in Jeddah and my wife had been a stewardess with Saudia. We had been told the flight crew didn’t evacuate because the King’s aircraft was at the Royal Gate. My brother was a passenger in a Saudia B737 overrun on landing at Yanbu. The passengers initiated and conducted the evacuation themselves.
That the King was the reason for not evacuating is very probably an urban legend to explain the hardly explainable. The Tower questioned them repeatedly if they would evacuate and the First Officer acknowledged this twice but it never happened. They shutted the Engines down only 23 (!) minutes after touchdown and no King would have prevented them to do this earlier.
It was basically pure stupidity and incompetence at the worst level what killed them and all the other people on board.
That's absolutely insane!
Almost brought me to tears, especially when you honored the heroic flight attendants. I have watched many of these videos, but the senseless loss of life here is so very sad.