The WORST, and best changes from the DataSlate!
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- Опубліковано 21 сер 2024
- GW made a lot of awesome changes, and one that might be the WORST change they have ever made.
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As your not allowed to move after you enter from reinforcement i can't see that you'd be allowed to pay 2" to pivot either.
on the charge
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007you only move if you succeed your charge, meaning you only pivot if you make the 9” charge
we disagree
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 no your just wrong unfortunately. When you deepstrike or come in from reserve you hsve to be 9" away.. you cant then move after the fact.
Once again making a fuss over nothing.
@@TheRoark I agree ... I dont see this as a way of getting a shorter charge.
GW: Knights are titanic and can crash through walls.
Stompa: Am I a joke to you?
GW: yes...
Warboss ruling is bollocks. How hard would it be to change the wording to be the same as meganob fnp
its not actually the biggest deal, its just annoying. I essentially always disembark the turn before i waagh anyway, so i can take advantage of ere we go. With a little practice you will find its no biggie, but i agree its annoying
I think its a pretty big deal. If you have to disembark turn 1 to go turn 2.
You cant advance the trukks. You loose 3" move ekstra on turn 2. The units can now be shoot and hit with minus to move/advance from stuff. Its alot easier to charge the Nobs when they are out, limiting where you can be, costing you board control. Its a big Nerf.
@@sumsarpratIf you disembark turn 1 for a turn 2 waaagh you still get the 3" disembark. Then 'Ere we go gives you +4" movement. Yes, you lose out on the advance from the trukk, but that's on average 3.5".
Sure there's a chance they try target your nobs, but T1 you should be able to keep them fairly covered imo.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007that’s my plan just go back to index Orks no reason to pay taxes in detachments
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Its a huge deal. Now warbosses with nobz have to start turn two on battlefield. How is that not insane? A warboss is a huge damage potential to have in your nobz, does a lot of work mainly because he has the extra pip of strength. Having to exit the trukk turn 1 after moving is awful.
I actually like the pivot rule. It's a lot easier to measure: move straight, add 2" for pivot" move straight again. As opposed to measuring the radiused arc the back corner of a tank would follow as it tightly rounds a corner.
For circular based models without a hull, free pivot shouldn't matter since rotating won't get you any closer.
The rule does need to be cleaned up for models like the examples given. Also seems a little unfair that the cost is the same to rotate a knight and a mounted unit on an oval base.
yeah the intent of the rule is certainly not the issue, its the way its written :)
you don't get to pivot before you charge so u wouldn't get 2 free inch on the charge. you would need to roll a 9 inch charge then it wouldn't matter if u pivot. the only thing i think this would do is it allow someone to pivot around a corner to toe tap and obj, or pivot at the end of your charge to tag multiple unnits
negative ghost rider, you only need to roll the amount of inches necessary to complete the charge, its why you can complete a 9 inch charge when you roll an 8 if you have a +1 modifier. So roll a 7, pivot for a free 2 inches of rotation (assuming round base) complete the charge
I've yet to find if there's anything else that contradicts this, but from the wording in the Reinforcements step rules in the Core Rules, a unit that arrives from Reserves counts as already having made a Normal Move and can't move further during the phase. So they don't get to pivot in the Reinforcements step.
God knows what this means for the charge phase though, pay a 2" tax on the pivot to move the model further than the dice roll originally allows...
everything about that rule is a nightmare
The rules say the roll is the maximun that a charging unit can move. It doesnt say you measure first. Thats just what we do. You roll the dice. Now when you move a circular base pivot counts as zero inches. Vehicle is now 2 or 3 inches closer. Now move to charge. This needs to be cleared up in faq.
I feel like they left the door open to fix this on a datasheet-by-datasheet basis by updating the rules to give problematic units a higher pivot value.
Did you read the ork FAQ? Because I really don't think the pivot change is the worst change, I just assumed from the title that you were talking about the warboss change. If you call a waaagh and the boss is in a transport he just never gets his ability for the extra attacks. That's the worst change. As a casual gamer I'm pretty much just ignoring this. I mean what if you're going first? If you have to call the waaaagh At the top of the battle round, now if you want your attacks you got to drop the war boss and his squad out of the transport at the end of your first turn so that you can get the bonus on the second turn. Therefore completely destroying the point of a transport because your units now get shot up just so you can use your ability with your army rule.
The pivot rule is literally whatever I think it's a great change it's one of those quality of life changes that just makes everything so much faster and less complex which honestly 40K needs. We need to find ways to make the game go faster that are in the fidgety movement and measuring portions of the game and not the complexity parts. And I disagree that it's balanced around this, It's really not balanced around this because nobody plays the same terrain! Even at the competitive level there's multiple kinds of terrain and we see that you can't even use big vehicles in a lot of places in Europe. Something on round base doesn't get any advantage In terms of charge distance or anything from rotating so it just helps them move around terrain which is good in my opinion because it's one of the worst feels bads when your model gets stuck just because it has something cool or some fiddly bit or wingtip or tail or something like that. You are really being hyperbolic about this change there's still lots of limitations You have to be able to physically fit the bass through places, You can't move over or through terrain on most models (The stompa didn't get the change the knights just got which he desperately needs) and they still are balanced around it.
You've also misread the rules, I was chatting about this on Reddit You really can't get an advantage on this. It costs 2 in of movement for anything that's not a circular base, So the only way you're going to gain is if the model is longer than it is wide by greater than 2 in from the center point, Which means it has to be 4 in longer in total than it is wide. I'm sure there's a couple cases like that but that's not a big deal honestly that's just an interesting park and they can be rebalanced. You get nothing if it has a circular base because you measure from the base and pivoting doesn't change the distance.
On another note though I think the indirect change is, while probably good for the game, half-assed as hell. If you're going to make a big change like that you better go through every single thing that gives indirect in the game and rewrite rules to make it make sense. Guard got absolutely dumpstered on with these changes. Now there's orders that don't make any sense to give, abilities that are not very useful at all, and all they did was knock 10 points off a bunch of models including ones like the FOB which was bad before and continues to be bad. If you're going to make a huge game change in the core rules think of the second and third order ramifications and fix it.
Happy krumper always interrupts rules in sketchy ways and twists it into "big brain understanding". He's smart and no one else is as smart. . Trust him
I honestly believe he just says these sort of things to get traction in videos. It's cool
i dont think i have ever said no one else is smart, you know who agrees with me about this pivot thing? all of Art of War, Tactical Tortoise, and about every other competitive player alive. silly bear, trying to insinuate i have Allterior motives
As a competitive gaurd player.... indirect was gross and boring the data slate made gaurd 100% more interesting. Gaurd will do fine this data slate.
Pivot has issues, fast rolling also has issues. But its toy army men/aliens... chill.
@@Gromeish guard may do well but it honestly doesn't matter if a completely different list with completely different units that just happen to be in the same faction does well frankly. Not everyone has every unit and it's up to GW to ensure a balanced game. Do you think at this point that artillery guard or infantry guard will be balanced and within the acceptable win rates?
For me I expect GW to figure out their rules so that all models are competitive. I don't define competitive as being in the absolute best list that's impossible I just define it as something you wouldn't feel bad about taking to a tournament and have it be about skill expression when facing a similar level opponent and not the model.
If it requires a completely different list than before to just be in the mid 40% range then it may as well be a different faction if you don't have those models. I really agree with what Mordian glory said on this, That Guard will probably have a list that will do fine but it will leave out in the cold many guard players because they're doing nothing but pushing tanks. GW shouldn't be pushing different playstyles They should be trying to balance them so that the various styles are all viable.
The titanic ability to move through walls also seems to effect the gorkanaught and morkanaught!
no, it is written only for chaos and imperial knights army specific, not for titanic units as a whole
Unfortuantely its specific to imperial/chaos knights
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 That seems really shitty at first glance
pretty sure the pivot is not intended to be used in that way if my oppenent tried to pull that id jus walk away why would u get to pivot after u came from reserve that doesnt even make sense
i completely understand this, but the rules are written for a competitive world, where this will cause big headaches.
Yea exactly. Until GW solves this with a rules change its going to be solved with communication. Because i will not play with sb who wants to abuse this.
After 3 weeks how do you feel about the pivot? My play experience has been that it's just generally smoother, and that the big pivoting things actually don't want to charge very often. Skimmers feel good now.
i am fine with it, with the caveat, that the charge exploit is still ridiculous, WTC fixed that, but in standard GW rules its still a big problem!
Tau players trying to use their double up strat enhancement - "Wow, this is worthless"
also, the ruling is added to the movement phase section in the core rules. not in the charge section.
this means nothing, it is not specific to an advance, a normal move, or a fall back either, does this mean it applies to nothing? no, it is in fact, a very poorly written rule riddled with exploits
Might be a dumb question but... on indirect fire now can't hit on a 1-3, does having line of sight mitigate that? So say a Basilisk with orders and has line of sight on an enemy unit which hypothetically means it's hitting on a 3+ but where it still has indirect in it's weapon profile, does that negate the possibility of it hitting on a 3+ now??
So does having line of sight for an indirect weapon allow it to hit on less than a 4+?
yes, indirect only takes the penalty when using the indirect ability!
Does the base to base contact rule not solve the charge issue, the first bullet point reads "The distance your model could move was sufficient to move it into base-to-base contact with the enemy model if there was no overhang".
no
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Why not? Not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to get my head around your POV.
because you can still pivot for free and gain significant free movement in the charge phase
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 but if the model overhangs the base, you still would need sufficient movement to get the base into engagement range. So you'd still need a 9, the position of the hull doesn't matter.
How does this tyranid strategem work: UNSEEN LURKERS, on a unit with lone operative? is it still reduced to 6"?
looks like, because it is specifically stated
and again on Page 5 of "Pariah Nexus Tournament Companion" at the bottom of the page in designers notes "to ensure
no undue advantage is conferred by pivoting such models
(e.g. while making a Charge move)."
sure, soooo what you are saying is they are asking you to not take advantage of it? That doesnt fly holmes, TO's will have to FAQ it until GW does
can’t move after entering from reserves as it happens at the end of the movement phase so no movement.
for goodness sakes haha, you rotate in the charge phase as well. I never said you rotate when you deepstrike. Its in the charge phase to get free movement
What about the Reductus Saboteur from GSC, how does the 0cp grenade stratagem works there? Can i still use it a second time on a different unit?
if it specifically calls out grenades, then yes!
Great video! I'm curious about you showing Magnus at the end in the pivot section, he'd still have to measure from the base even after a pivot right? I know it makes him easier to move through terrain. Making sure I'm not missing something from him.
yeah, it just lets him dance like a ballerina, essentially he will move like 30-40% further now with the new change
Page 5 bottom left of pariah nexus tournament pack designer notes call out the no pivot to charges
all it says is it is not intended to give advantages. Which opens it up to argument. Which is my criticism, just shut it down and dont write a bad rule
How you moving stuff after it comes in from reserves?
Also, unless I'm forgetting something don't you still have to measure all distances from a vehicles base if it has one?
the charge bud, you move it in the charge phase.
Surely if it has a base you must measure from the base? The big downside I see from it is that if you have to pivot 1/2 inch you now need to pay the full 2. Also Flying vehicles the massive tue ship now can pivot 360 and just fly back a forth on the board.
nope :) thats the problem
Pariah Nexus tournament rules allow for "unless otherwise stated" on redeploy rules, so redeploy abilities that specify they happen after the roll to go first still work in Pariah Nexus games.
i believe you are mistaken, the rules are extremely clear on ALL abilities regardless of wording function the same way now
It is a bit sad though, that the Changes of the big Knights only apply to them and not to other titanic Units like a Stompa for example. Tyranid Monsters got the same change as well.
Anyway, I am still hyped for the changes, most of them are great.
yeah most rock!
Am I right in thinking that for Knights and models on big oval bases can game the Pivot rule in a different way? Their bases from center to furthest point are 3.4" and so if you pay 2" to pivot asuch as you want youre actually gaining 1.4" of movement overall.
Could help loads with getting a toe on an objective or into a ruin and so on.
loads of units can game the pivot rule, its such an excruciatingly poorly written rule
Maybe it would be enough if they added a rule stating that from deep strike or similar teleports, you always charge 9 inches.
Id say if they change it to every time you pivot you pay 2 inche's on bases 50mm or bigger
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 I actually like that it speeds up the game, but as you said, it's an area open to a lot of abuse. Well, let's see if GW will respond to it :)
@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Hi, I'm not sure that rotating works how you say it does, in the core rules is explicitly stated that "When measuring the distance between models, measure between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, measure to the closest point of any part of that model instead." , from this wording it seems, that as long as the model has round base you are still measuring from the base and round base can't get any closer by rotating. At least in my group we always measure from the base even for Arks, etc...., but we are far from competitive players
check out the rules commentary, where it says in the case over hulls that overhang the base, as long as you are as close as possible you count as base to base. Other wise you could engineer scenarios where you can physically touch raiders and not be engaged
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Oh I see, we always played that you need to roll 9" charge and than you slap them as close as you can, I tought it's supported even by Aircraft rules as they specify the base have to go over board edge. Well, we will still apply common sense when in casual circles as it solves most rules discusions better than GWs FAQs, but I stand corrected for strict rulings
Regarding the pivot change, isn't the charge measured from the base? I think it's from the chassis only if the model doesn't have the base. Also, why would you want to charge with doomsday arc, or eldar raider? If you need that, than you made some big mistakes and there's a problem somewhere else in my opinion. If there really is an advantage it would be to something like Hellhammer, which might want to try to charge something, because it's huge, and doesn't have penalty to shoot in engagement range.
engagement is measured from the hull of vehicles. I can think of a dozen scenarios immediately why i would love 3-4 inches of free movement on a variety of vehicles
If a Doomsday ark is >6in long and comes in from Strat Reserves it has to be 9" away from the enemy as well as wholly within 6" of the edge. In the charge phase wouldn't pivoting 90 degrees make the back end of it fall off the table? Is that still a legal pivot if parts of the model are overhanging the battlefield edge?
now you are allowed to move off the table so long as your base remains on it. The rule is riddled with exploits
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 definitely seems like it needs clarifying. Thanks for the breakdown!
Calm down, WTC FAQ already have custom rules for pivoting, they will cover this issue also❤
But good that you raise the issue.
i am a youtuber, its my job to not be calm :P
All of these are hell Yea changes!
And for the 1 thing that is awfull i will insist on the old ruling.
If my opponent has any decency they will accept, if not its very obvious what nooby unfun plan they had; thus Screw them.
its about what tournaments adopt here which is the issue, not personal friendly play
How are you allowed to pivot after entering play from reserves in the way you suggested without then ending your move too close (inside 9"). Or did you mean rapid ingress, then pivot in the following turn?
you dont bud, i mean with the charge move. I never said anything about pivoting after deepstriking in. But you can still pivot for free reducing the required charge range in the charge phase
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 ah i had not appreciated this applied in charge phase also. Thanks for clarifying.
This is certainly an.... Interesting change haha
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 but you measure the charge distance before you do the charge move so you would not gain a better charge with pivot tho you could charge further the roll still is a 9" from deepstrike
the distance sure, but you can move 9 inches with a 7 on the dice. you can do this with + to charge, or....... a free pivot move
Awesome vid as usual.. Loving the idea of Tank Shock with Riptide or Ghostkeel
Is the doubling strategems only removed from this rule? Or is it in general? For example uriel ventris a named captain allows you to use a stratagem if your u it is battle shocked and if you already used it before. How ever he does not give you a "free" stratagem, does he still have this ability or does he just have a dead ability?
All of those rules have been changed to mean simply make a strategem cost one less. read the balance dataslate for more details!
@Happykrumpingwargaming007 yes I know this the issue comes with doubling stratagems. There are characters with abilities that only allow you to double them are those abilities now gone? Or only on units that reduce CP costs?
doubling up only work if it specifically names the stratagem, for example the hexmark can still double Overwatch becasue the ability calls out overwatch specifically
I think the easy patch for non round bases from deployment/deep strike is that it must be able to do a full pivot and still be at least 9" away
ooof that sounds brutal, id just say, pivots are not free in the charge phase haha
Gotta wonder if removing pivot makes da big hunt much more viable in tourney play
Kill rig? Or for squigs
@@beanspud88 frankly both!
i believe you are wrong. since models with bases are meassured fromt he base and not the model outline. so for round bases it does not matter, and for any other bases you pay the 2" after your charge roll. so you still need a charge roll of 9.
" Each time you pivot a model, rotate it any amount around its central axis (perpendicular to the battlefield through the centre of its base, or through the centre of the model if it doesn’t have a base). The first time you do this during each model’s move, subtract that model’s pivot value (see below) from the remaining distance it can move during that move."
the removing from remaining distance is key here.
if you noticed my complaint was about round bases which suffer no movement penalty. so you gain massive free movement from it
Raw I only see a problem with flyers on round flight stands. For everything else, you either measure from the base (where pivot does not impact anything) or the 2" goes from your available movemen(the charge roll). So you still need a 9 on charges from reservers.
I am failing to communicate this correctly, hop in the discord to discuss further
Don't you measure from the base when it comes with a base. Round base nine inches away will be nine inches away no matter how much you pivot? true or have I got it wrong?
you do , but then you pivot for free if you have a round base, which can easily get you 2.5-3 inches of free movment
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 You still measure from the round base for distance, therefore it will be exactly the same distance away it was before you pivot it. The shape of the model is irrelevant as the measurement is from a round base and that distance never changes. Easiest way to see it is remove the model from it's round base. Now place it, pivot it and move it. the distance doesn't get any closer because you always measure from the base irrespective of the model on top of it. So that models shape can be 10" long and 5" wide but the round base is in the same place no matter where the hull/body is and as you always measure from that round base for distances/movement/shooting the pivot will not make any difference to the distance from an enemy model because you pivot on the base.
check out the rules commentary, where it says in the case of hulls that overhang the base, as long as you are as close as possible you count as base to base. Other wise you could engineer scenarios where you can physically touch raiders and not be engaged
RE: Rotation Movement
The game is designed to work properly only if EVERY model has to have a CIRCULAR base. This is the actual solution to the way 40k measures things. This is probably what will eventually have to be done, but GW is holding off because everyone was mad at having to upsize bases not to long ago.
cant be, the exploits are too big, perhaps they want free rotations, but there would have to be limitations on it.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 They obviously didn't even think about rotations until it became an issue, and wrote the game initially with the idea that most models would be on circular bases, and all measurements are done from base, melee is base to base, etc. but it only works if EVERYONE is on circle bases and started to break down once people pointed out that rotating a vehicle model "should" cost movement, but RAW there was NEVER any rules stating that rotating cost movement until now. Now we get the worse version of the rule aka the Games Workshop choice.
tl;dr rotations and exploits disappear completely if everything is on a CIRCLE base large enough for the model.
Id like to read that pivot rule. The designer notes looks to say something about vehicles having undue advantage by pivoting.
the designer note is there, but it has no effect on rules as written. Thankfully it will allos TO's to write FAQ's for tournaments though
i was right! page 3 in "Core Rules Updates and Rules Commentary" pivoting takes place on the center axis point. so no cheap 7in charge for you! ^.^
I think you are failing to understand the geometry of long models that overhang the small round base, such as a raider.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 are deep striking charging Land Raiders still a thing?
and again on Page 5 of "Pariah Nexus Tournament Companion" at the bottom of the page in designers notes "to ensure
no undue advantage is conferred by pivoting such models
(e.g. while making a Charge move)."
yeaah saying hey guys you have this rule that allows you to do something, but please dont. does not prevent anything. All it does is encourage TO's to FAQ and cover the butts of GW's sloppy rules writing. Please remember over all i am a huge GW fan boy, this is just a horribly written rule.
naaa no circular base, it wont work with them, plus you cant disembark closer than 9 anymore, thank goodness they patched that a while ago
Pretty sure you need to end no closer than 9" and the pivot change doesn't actually cause the issue you highlighted.
Charge phase homie, i never said you can pivot when you deepstrike in
The only vehicle that really does have huge benefits from turning before charging after deepstriking is the drukhari raider - I think. And even that seems niche to me.
monolith, DDA, Every eldar vehicle in the game, Gladiator, repulsor, repulsor executioner, impulsor...
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 the mono gets like 1" out of this, charging a DDA or one of the others - i dont think so. The best thing are monsters that deepstrike.
well, mike brandt just came out and said it is 100% intended. So yeah DDA gets like a 6 inch charge easy, the Monolith is 7 i believe. Nothing else to argue now that the powers that be have spoken. Just a stupid change i hate
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 yep, I agree. It’s a strange change and surly it will lead to exploitations that we can’t even think about just now.
I’m curious how the new indirect rules effect the Lord of Virulence in DG
Nerfs him terribly, shots still miss on natural 1-3 roll on indirect fire.
yeah its a big nerf for him
Maybe niche but now the loyalist primarchs can move through ruins. That is a big help
yeah that is actually pretty cool
I think the solution for this is actually that units with round bases THAT OVERHANG THEIR BASES should also have to pay the 2" pivot tax.
or, you pay the pivot cost everytime you pivot, or this only functions in the movement phase
Come in 9" away you're charge roll has to be made or you don't move aka move doesn't happen until after a successful charge roll. So need to roll a 9 before you can spend 2" of your charge move on pivot.
your charge is how far you must move to complete the charge, when you have a round base you pivot for free, making many charge only require a 7 on the dice to complete the charge
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 pivot movement is considered 0. when looking at the example GW provides replace the 2 for the blood thruster to the 0 of a round base. In that Example a round base would only need a 10" charge compared to the blood thirsters 12. The example discredits the idea of a 9" charge being 7
the problem is this will allow for abuse of rules in tournament play, which is the entire point of this channel. If you read the rules assuming everyone wants a fair and balanced game then maybe its not an issue. But that is not the reality, people will abuse this, it will be an issue.
I get it people will try to make advantageous where there are none, I wouldn't discredit that ideal. I was purely saying at the end of the day GW did address the idea of the extra movement gained by pivots even if they did so badly and the video gave incorrect yet entertaining take extremely new rules. Rules as written and rules as intended both point towards the conclusion that no, the movement gained does not count towards the movement considered needed to make charge, due to pivots of round bases being considered 0 movement. Per the charge example given
Your charge distance is wrong and pivoting doesn't get you free inches. Magnus isn't a vehicle. Distance is always measured from the base of non-vehicle units and not their model.
The exception is if you had enough movement to make within 1" base to base, but the overhanging physically prevents it.
Quote from the rules:
■ The distance your model could move was sufficient to move it within
Engagement Range of the enemy model if there was no overhang.
you fail to understand physics, this means i explained it poorly ill do so in my next video, ill use video. I am talking about the charge phase bud. SO you rotate during the charge move, so for a bunch of models it makes 9 inch charges better as the rotate is always free since they have a round base but some models are much longer than 2 inches
thus end up with a 6 or 7 inch charge from deepstrike
@Happykrumpingwargaming007 I'm not failing to understand physics. The rules say the distance rolled had to be sufficient to make within 1" of base to base. Rotate a round base all you want, and it's not going to be any closer. Magnus's (or any based monster/walker-vehicle) wings (overhang) aren't a part of engagement range, and that's the part you're misunderstanding..
bud, i am refering to overhanging hulls on top of circular bases. backing up what i am saying is mike brandt himself. He just came out and said it is 100% intended. So yeah DDA gets like a 6 inch charge easy, the Monolith is 7 i believe. Nothing else to argue now that the powers that be have spoken. Just a stupid change i hate
@Happykrumpingwargaming007
Nice attempt at trying to wordsmith your response... But you're still wrong in the video. Your video lists Dreadnoughts (keyword walker) and greater demons (keyword monster). Neither of those use a hull for their measurement. Vehicles which do use a "hull" and are on a round base can do what you described, but I was specific and not arguing that.
i do list greater daemons and dreadnaughts. Do you not think they get benefit from being able to freely pivot? And did you listen to the whole video? Magnus probably gains 4-5 inches of movement on average lol, those wings used to require TONS of rotation to move around the map, now he just ballerinas about with no movement penalty at all
At a glance of the pivot and deep strike/reinforcement rules, I do not think you are allowed to abuse the pivot for extra inches as you describe. The rule is:
"The first time you do this during each model’s move..."
As far as I can tell, pivots only happen when a model "moves." Setting up models from reserve do not "move" (i.e. normal/advance/charge) but are counted as having made a move.
Most models measure from the base to another models base to do this so a pivot doesn't really matter on a round base. Although it does seem to support the idea you can pivot after rolling your charge distance for extra movement. I think it's only a few models (like stormravens) where it has a round base but you do many measurements from the hull as well. Most of these models are covered under the "pay 2'' for pivot" rule, but I do agree overall that this should be cleared up for the edge cases.
*Also I don't think a stand for certain vehicles (such as aircraft) is the same thing as a base? So they would still be subject to the 2'' pivot as well
RAW I don't think it is even clear you can execute this pivot abuse, and RAI it's clearly not allowed. Any sensible TO should rule against this IMO.
I never once said you rotate after you set up from deepstrike. The exploit as i explained in the video is during the charge phase. It will make charges much easier as the rotation itself will give massive free movement for units on round bases which pay no penalty for rotation
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 I agree. RAW, those models with WAY longer footprints than they are wide can game this massively if on a round base. They can also pivot a lot more for free and tag way more units for move blocking / delaying.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Maybe I just don't understand bases vs vehicle hulls still. But I thought that models like vehicles either measure from their base or from their hull (aside from the niche aircraft stuff). Hull if you don't have a base, base if you do. A model like a raider does physically have a base, but I believe it's just so it can stand on the table; it still does all its measurements from the hull like a rhino or a leman russ. I don't think the rules say you can choose when to have a base only when it suits you. So models like the raider are either paying the 2'' for pivots, or they measure from their base from a charge (which makes pivoting pretty much irrelevant.)
no they have a round base, meaning they never pay and movement penalty for rotating
Eldar Grav Tanks with their tiny round base and their huge hulls are living their best lives right now
Do the pivot rules apply to mounted models?
yes, so any rotation will cost 2 inches, then the rest of rotation is free, of course excluding round bases, so thunderwolves will not pay for rotation
@Happykrumpingwargaming007 ok, me and a friend of mine are having trouble seeing where pivot rules apply to mounted models. It seems like only vehicles and monsters must adhere to the 2" pivot rules. If you can help me find the rule applying to mounted models, that would be great.
For example: would primaris outriders pay 2" pivot cost to do so, or will they pay the true amount they have to pivot to fit through terrain gaps?
(I greatly appreciate you replying to me so often. Dude, you're awesome 👌)
ahh you need to check the Grand Tournament rules for pariah nexus. That will answer your question!
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 on it. Thanks dude
@9:57 that example doesn't make sense. If you come in from strat reserves, you can't rotate it to be under 9". When all the moving is said and done, you must be 9" out.
I am talking about the charge phase bud. SO you rotate during the charge move, so for a bunch of models it makes 9 inch charges better as the rotate is always free since they have a round base but some models are much longer than 2 inches
thus end up with a 6 or 7 inch charge from deepstrike
@Happykrumpingwargaming007 that still doesn't make sense to me. You should always need a 9 out of deep strike. It shouldn't be a way to game it in the same turn you strike in.
Now, a normal movement and then rotate is legit. Feels bad, but that makes sense.
@Happykrumpingwargaming007 oh, and let me clarify.
I'm not allowing an opponent to deepstrike in under 9" from any point of a model. If they try it, he can stop gamming movement in a cheating way, or our game is over.
well, mike brandt just came out and said it is 100% intended. So yeah DDA gets like a 6 inch charge easy, the Monolith is 7 i believe. Nothing else to argue now that the powers that be have spoken. Just a stupid change i hate
One sentence fix: you can only use the free pivot as part of a normal move or advance and not when arriving from reserve.
would be lovely, sadly mike brandt came out and said, "naah bruh, we want this exploid"
Source for that? Cause officially in pariah nexus companion they literally state it's not meant to give any undue advantage when e.g. when charging.
Designer’s Note: This change expands the pivot value of 2" to all models on non-round bases (excluding Aircraft), as well as to models that do not have any base, to ensure no undue advantage is conferred by pivoting such models (e.g. while making a Charge move).
And since this is in actual rules, I don't care who or where comes.out and says anything until it's in the rules :D
Why would a vehicle be able to pivot within 9" when it has to stay outside of 9"? I'm not following your logic on that
Charge phase homie, i never said you can pivot when you deepstrike in
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 You said strat reserves which still have to stay outside of 9. As for hovering vehicles with flying bases I'm sure they'll clarify it. If they don't Aeldari vehicles already lost 2 inches of movement this edition anyway, and you have to be facing forward to move toward the enemy unit anyway
ah there it is. no, you do not need to be facing forward to move towards the enemy, i believe you have a misunderstanding of certain aspects of game play
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 That's definitely possible lol I thought thats what the new movement rule stated. But after reading it, it definitely doesn't. That would fix the issue though IMO
they'll probably FAQ the deep strike hacks to be so that engagement range is 9 inches away, to return it to as intended that DS is a 9 inch gamble
i just think the entire wording is a disaster. They will fix it some way though
perhaps, allowing it to only function in the movement phase?
Can Zodgrod embark a gargantuan squiggoth and gain the 9in scout ?
no, that only works on dedicated transports
What would you recommend to ride the Beast?
nothing?
PIVOT
it haunts me
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 lol
Does the Custodes Army Ability work now on Dev wounds or does it not?
yes, all Dev wounds now are functionally Mortal wounds that do not spill over
Why is this a problem for greater daemons ? They are on round bases.
its great for greater daemons, its a problem for the game
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 sorry I don't understand how it helps the greater daemons if they are on round bases. Charge is still measured from the base? Amateur player here.
jump in the discord to discuss in more detail, but effectively this allows you to not need lose movement by changing magnus, ect... facings. its a HUGE deal
Lol rhinos just gained the Aircraft keyword 😂
did they really? ha i missed that
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 with the 2 inch pivot rule, they are now aircraft 😂
lolol
You are paying the points for toughness, wounds and an array of weapons. Not for movement. Pivot is fine if refined a little bit.
movement is the most important part of the game, we seem to have a fundamental disagreement about how to play warhammer
Does a flight stand really count as a base?
yep
Too much complaining about nonexistent problem.
If you DS or come from reserves, it's after movement, and you don't get to rotate because you're not moving.
Designer’s Note: This change expands the pivot value of 2" to all models on non-round bases (excluding Aircraft), as well as to models that do not have any base, to ensure no undue advantage is conferred by pivoting such models (e.g. while making a Charge move).
From Pariah Nexus
>>>to ensure no undue advantage is conferred by pivoting such models (e.g. while making a Charge
another person who did not listen to what i said! It in the charge phase, and regardless of the designers comments, when you are on a circular base, you pivot for free, combine that with hulls that overhang round bases (raider, gladiator DDA, monolith, ect....) you get a 7-6 inch charge. as per the rules commentary which points out models with hulls overhanging the base count as base to base when they are as close as possible.(hull to model)
Not playing until rules are in one pdf. Sick of this crap. Have to have 6 pdfs and wahapedia open just to play.
sorry to see you go, 40k is a complicated game, it will never be in one PDF. I recommend trying infinity! It has fun play rules and is much simpler!
we know mechanicus is bottom 5 but lets make them worse buff increasing points for everything
admech just got ALOT better
As an admech player I am so hyped to play with these changes!
I hate or am imbivalent to every change they made lol. Indirect: terrible change. Tank shock: terrible change. Ork's getting pwned: awful changes. I don't play competitively, neither do most people, and these were awful, unfun changes. GW nearly lost me.
oh okay
The indirect change is ass. Coming from a DG player it effectively neuters the LoV and our primarch, Morty. The PBC is now an expensive meat shield. This changes how we have to play the game, it is a pretty significant change.
i think the change is incredible, now the PBC's need to drop by 30-40 points
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007lol
You're setting up, not moving (Normal, Advance, Fall Back), so I don't think you're eligible to pivot from deep strike or strat reserves? Plus you must stay outside of 9" for both of those things unless I'm missing something here.
I never said you pivot when you come in from reserves, the free pivot would occur in the charge phase please reference the drawing
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 Ah I missed Charge phase. That would explain why. Thanks.
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 You cannot move unless you make a successful charge in the charge phase. So you have to roll the 9 before you ever pivot.
negative ghost rider, you just have to be able to successfully complete the charge, which would mean you likely need a natural 7 on a basic thing like a DE raider, rotate 2 inches of movement for free, and complete the charge
@@Happykrumpingwargaming007 You need to read the charge rules in the core rules. It clearly says your unit cannot move in the charge phase unless you successfully charge first. To do that after setting up you need a 9. Pivot requires you to be able to move. You don’t know what you’re talking about.