Couldn't have said it better myself. If you're making the right size chip in some materials you can dry cut and the chips are glowing hot, but when you touch the part after a cut it's cool. Lower feeds generate more heat and the last thing you want to do in materials like titanium is heat up your part or tool.
Very enlightening...I am super guilty of this and am working to correct it. Keeping in mind that you should direct the heat transfer to the chip, by not cutting too little, is the key here. Thanks!
This video is one of the most helpful that I've come across! 40 years ago when I first started CNC programming I basically cut my teeth on super alloys:. Hastelloy C, Hastelloy B, Monel 400, etc. And I found myself doing exactly the same thing that this video talks about. The carbide inserts we're wearing out very quickly, so my first instinct was to reduce the feed rate.... Which, since these were work hardening metals, only served to precipitate the hardening feature to greater degree. Hence, I was making the situation worse. But unlike today, I did not have the benefit of any of these wonderful videos to help me along and show me the correct way to change things.
I've had to explain this principle many times. The force vector imposed on the insert has to enter the body of the insert. Realizing this is one of the best ways to understand it. Too slow or too thin ends up pushing the force vector past the insert surface and simply runs it flat, which can happen almost instantly as soon as the underfed cut begins. Then once they increase the feed or speed, you're already try to cut with a dulled insert. Applies to all tools, including drills etc. High speed tooling as well.
This is brilliant! I never understood about Force vectors..... But when I try to imagine in my mind what you're describing here.... It makes perfect sense! Thank you so much!!!!
I figured this out the hard way a long time ago while hogging copper. Another machinist that had small man's disease raised hell because I increased the feed rate. I simply followed what the manufacturer suggested for the insert tool, whereas he wanted to run it like a high speed steel tool. Overall, I cut part to part time by half... he really lost it when I did that. lol I guess he thought it made him look bad since at that time I had been machining about a year at and he had been machining about a decade. If it did it was just the icing on the cake, I just wanted to machine it the best it could be with the equipment we had. Edit: I miss machining
It’s funny how people get offended when you make their process better isn’t it lol I worked with a guy at my last job that was the same way. To me, if someone can make what I am doing better then we both learned something
Quite interesting, the chips produced by the milling/cutting processes are like tiny heat blotters which pull the heat away from the work and cutter surfaces. With the cutting lubricant keeping the work cool to allow easier milling/cutting/threading.
I've been told you have to be careful of these same kinds of "machining sins" when you're running plastic; not because of work hardening, but because not pulling enough heat out in chips will melt or soften the plastic, gum up tooling and decrease precision from cutting mushy material, possibly also burning it as well.
Not a machinist, but I've tried drilling 3dprinted parts. That'd even worse. These plastics turn liquid at 190-230^C and they're soft at 60-80^C. If I'm not "confident" in my drilling, the area around softens and I get weird misshapen holes, ruining the part usually.
I've run in to the opposite while running polyurethane, albeit because of tight specified tolerances with no way of clamping the material (50 shore C, +/-0.1mm milled slots) where the only real solution was to _not_ clamp the material (instead just blocking it in with metal stops on all sides) and going so fast I'd rather not watch the machine (375Vc with 0.0113Fz when the material isn't even clamped, 32mm mill at (s3732, f168.7 metric feed) and hope for the best. And no, I don't know why it wasn't just cast to that shape instead of being machined. For those who don't read industrial: 50 shore C is about the consistency of a gummy bear.
I used to mill hardened steel(above 50-60hrc) with normal endmills, which was good up to around 45hrc In roughing where chips was coming off the tool lasted for hours sometimes, but if I started a finishing pass with the same type of tool, it died in minutes They don't like to rub the material, a certain minimum of feedrate should be used to extend tool life, especially in hard materials
radial DOC 1mm, S160m/min F0.22 mm/rev.... The insert tip wore down sooooo fast..... radial DOC 2.5mm, S180m/min, F0.3mm/rev? Insert lasted all 44 pieces, with nail you can´t feel anything different on tip
interesting, I played around this aspect in the past and came to the same conclusion: in some cases a lower rate doesn't initiate the actual cutting process correctly. I took the risk and doubled the feed and lo and behold, it did cut much better...
Speed and Feed should be sync with each other depending on tool and material. I have experience with steel material and inserted drill where speed is too low and feed too fast can produce thick chip and overload the spindle load, so I got to bump up the spindle feed and work the feed up until I have it at recommend spindle load at 80%.
reducing the feed rate incrase the lenght the cutter cut material for the same amount of MRR incrasing abrasion of the tool for the same amount of material removed
Yes spring passes rub more than cut. Most people use spring passes for tight tolerance features to ensure there is no tool deflection. Or you may have to use them if you have a deep wall or pocket and you need to straighten the wall up from tool deflection. I am not a fan of spring passes but sometimes you can’t help but use them
Spring passes are sometimes necessary when you have deflection of either the workpiece or the cutter. Milling cutters almost always have some deflection. So when you take the final pass or two without taking any further depth of cut (the definition of a "spring pass") it will allow the milling cutter to finally straighten out. If you're turning a Long bar on a lathe, one end supported by the chuck and the other end supported by the tail stock..... You may have some deflection in the middle section of the bar. You may notice that it's a little fatter in the middle.... Then at the ends. That's mainly because of the deflection of the bar under cutting pressures. The bar will not deflect at the Chuck end or at the tail stock end because it's too well supported there. But there's no support in the center section of the bar. So taking a spring pass or two will help to ensure uniform diameter throughout the entire length. Generally speaking, spring passes can be successfully performed on softer materials like brasses and aluminums and coppers and low carbon steels. But once you start getting up into the super alloys category, taking a spring pass would probably not work well at all..... Because these materials work harden easily and the cutter would not cut - it would only rub.
@@johndonlan5956 Thank you for answering. I have had some poor surface finishes with spring passes on many steels and my lathe limits speed to 50 rpm with the door open so using sandpaper is not that effective. Maybe there is a door lock override function to allow sanding like one can do on a manual lathe but do not know yet.
For your own safety, if you do find a door safety mechanism override.... And you want to use some abrasive substance to polish you're turning work down to size..... Never do it single-handedly. Always used two hands. There is a temptation to wrap the sandpaper around the shaft as it's spinning, however you could very easily lose fingers or your hand that way. Get some Emery cloth, tear it into a long strip, and hold it openly with two hands against the far side of the turning piece (thus the emery cloth will form an exaggerated u-shape looking from the side). Do not let the two ends of the emery cloth touch each other (forming a closed loop around the workpiece) because in an instant the paper could catch on the workpiece and quickly wrap itself and your hand around the spinning shaft.
Surface footage is a measurement of how much distance a carbide insert or tool tip will travel in a minute. For instance, 120 sfm means:. 120 feet (across a surface) in one minute. On a CNC lathe this is most noticeable when doing facing operations. You program in a certain surface footage, but as the tool is getting closer and closer to the center of rotation the spindle speed is going faster and faster. Why is this? .... It's because the amount of surface (diameter) it's becoming smaller and smaller as the tool approaches the center of rotation..... But because a certain surface footage has been written into the program the machine tries to maintain that surface footage by speeding up the spindle speed as the surface becomes smaller and smaller. This is also noticeable when doing turning. Every turning pass that's deeper than the last one..... Cuts the diameter smaller. In order to maintain the programmed surface footage, you will notice that the spindle speeds up more and more with each deeper cut. The reason? As the diameter gets smaller on each cut there is less surface! Think about it for a while. You'll start to understand.
I have lots of good memories watching stupid people push the feed rate in titanium like they were machining stainless steel, and some dumb people that follow tool manufacturers speeds n feeds guideline actually destroys tools and scrap parts. A lot of tool manufacturer Representative are like car salesmen. They tell you what they want you to hear and not what you need to know.
It applies to cutting pretty much anything.. its just how much can you get away with depending on the material. In wood you can burn the material which means you are rubbing too much. TONS of different wood specific end mills for varying applications though.
Couldn't have said it better myself. If you're making the right size chip in some materials you can dry cut and the chips are glowing hot, but when you touch the part after a cut it's cool.
Lower feeds generate more heat and the last thing you want to do in materials like titanium is heat up your part or tool.
Very enlightening...I am super guilty of this and am working to correct it. Keeping in mind that you should direct the heat transfer to the chip, by not cutting too little, is the key here. Thanks!
This video is one of the most helpful that I've come across! 40 years ago when I first started CNC programming I basically cut my teeth on super alloys:. Hastelloy C, Hastelloy B, Monel 400, etc. And I found myself doing exactly the same thing that this video talks about. The carbide inserts we're wearing out very quickly, so my first instinct was to reduce the feed rate.... Which, since these were work hardening metals, only served to precipitate the hardening feature to greater degree. Hence, I was making the situation worse. But unlike today, I did not have the benefit of any of these wonderful videos to help me along and show me the correct way to change things.
one of the best videos. ya'll have made. i try to teach this nearly every day
Yeah yeah yeah cool... Make a video about the best BOOMs Titan ever said
I bet they could do a 10 minute edit of “BOOM!“ and it still wouldn’t include them all
@@tylerakerfeldt7220 1 hour BOOM loop please!
@@DolezalPetr I second this! BOOM!
I've had to explain this principle many times. The force vector imposed on the insert has to enter the body of the insert. Realizing this is one of the best ways to understand it. Too slow or too thin ends up pushing the force vector past the insert surface and simply runs it flat, which can happen almost instantly as soon as the underfed cut begins. Then once they increase the feed or speed, you're already try to cut with a dulled insert. Applies to all tools, including drills etc. High speed tooling as well.
all you need to help people understand this is give them a manual drill press and a bunch of big holes to drill
This is brilliant! I never understood about Force vectors..... But when I try to imagine in my mind what you're describing here.... It makes perfect sense! Thank you so much!!!!
A higher feed uses less energy. Less energy equals less heat. Thanks for your high quality videos and thanks for coming to Texas.
Thank you for watching!
this guy knows stuff
Even with a small Spindle sometimes you get better results when going more aggresive. Hint: you forgot to say BOOMM :-)
The same can be said with precision grinding. Aggressive delicacy.
That accent is thicker than the chips you guys are making! haha anyways, Thanks for the pro tips!
Lmao I knew someone was going to say it🤣🤣 thanks for watching
😂😂
I figured this out the hard way a long time ago while hogging copper. Another machinist that had small man's disease raised hell because I increased the feed rate. I simply followed what the manufacturer suggested for the insert tool, whereas he wanted to run it like a high speed steel tool. Overall, I cut part to part time by half... he really lost it when I did that. lol I guess he thought it made him look bad since at that time I had been machining about a year at and he had been machining about a decade. If it did it was just the icing on the cake, I just wanted to machine it the best it could be with the equipment we had.
Edit: I miss machining
It’s funny how people get offended when you make their process better isn’t it lol I worked with a guy at my last job that was the same way. To me, if someone can make what I am doing better then we both learned something
.... me too!
keep up the good work
This is the advice needed in the trade. Thank you for sharing!
You’re welcome. Thank you for watching
Quite interesting, the chips produced by the milling/cutting processes are like tiny heat blotters which pull the heat away from the work and cutter surfaces. With the cutting lubricant keeping the work cool to allow easier milling/cutting/threading.
I've been told you have to be careful of these same kinds of "machining sins" when you're running plastic; not because of work hardening, but because not pulling enough heat out in chips will melt or soften the plastic, gum up tooling and decrease precision from cutting mushy material, possibly also burning it as well.
Not a machinist, but I've tried drilling 3dprinted parts. That'd even worse. These plastics turn liquid at 190-230^C and they're soft at 60-80^C. If I'm not "confident" in my drilling, the area around softens and I get weird misshapen holes, ruining the part usually.
I've run in to the opposite while running polyurethane, albeit because of tight specified tolerances with no way of clamping the material (50 shore C, +/-0.1mm milled slots) where the only real solution was to _not_ clamp the material (instead just blocking it in with metal stops on all sides) and going so fast I'd rather not watch the machine (375Vc with 0.0113Fz when the material isn't even clamped, 32mm mill at (s3732, f168.7 metric feed) and hope for the best.
And no, I don't know why it wasn't just cast to that shape instead of being machined.
For those who don't read industrial: 50 shore C is about the consistency of a gummy bear.
If you look at an insert, it has a little burr on its edge. If your feed is smaller than that burr it will rub.
More CONTENT like this please, and thank you!
Thank you for your explanation. Charles
I used to mill hardened steel(above 50-60hrc) with normal endmills, which was good up to around 45hrc
In roughing where chips was coming off the tool lasted for hours sometimes, but if I started a finishing pass with the same type of tool, it died in minutes
They don't like to rub the material, a certain minimum of feedrate should be used to extend tool life, especially in hard materials
can you guys make a video how you calculate your feeds and speeds and DOC on lathes and mills
Crash it behind camera and reduce by 1%
@@tarehjernetarehjerne4082 Now there's a practical solution! 😄
That's what she said!😎
radial DOC 1mm, S160m/min F0.22 mm/rev.... The insert tip wore down sooooo fast..... radial DOC 2.5mm, S180m/min, F0.3mm/rev? Insert lasted all 44 pieces, with nail you can´t feel anything different on tip
That is awesome. Perfect example! Thanks for sharing
Thanks for the great example!
Man im tellin u!! My go to is hit it harder!!
This guy is pretty much a god
interesting, I played around this aspect in the past and came to the same conclusion: in some cases a lower rate doesn't initiate the actual cutting process correctly. I took the risk and doubled the feed and lo and behold, it did cut much better...
Speed and Feed should be sync with each other depending on tool and material. I have experience with steel material and inserted drill where speed is too low and feed too fast can produce thick chip and overload the spindle load, so I got to bump up the spindle feed and work the feed up until I have it at recommend spindle load at 80%.
спасибо яндекс переводу, теперь я понимаю о чем они говорят, это стало больше чем красивое видео
Titan's Sneed and Feed.
reducing the feed rate incrase the lenght the cutter cut material for the same amount of MRR incrasing abrasion of the tool for the same amount of material removed
Why are spring passes so popular, are these not rubbing the material?
Yes spring passes rub more than cut. Most people use spring passes for tight tolerance features to ensure there is no tool deflection. Or you may have to use them if you have a deep wall or pocket and you need to straighten the wall up from tool deflection. I am not a fan of spring passes but sometimes you can’t help but use them
Spring passes are sometimes necessary when you have deflection of either the workpiece or the cutter. Milling cutters almost always have some deflection. So when you take the final pass or two without taking any further depth of cut (the definition of a "spring pass") it will allow the milling cutter to finally straighten out.
If you're turning a Long bar on a lathe, one end supported by the chuck and the other end supported by the tail stock..... You may have some deflection in the middle section of the bar. You may notice that it's a little fatter in the middle.... Then at the ends. That's mainly because of the deflection of the bar under cutting pressures. The bar will not deflect at the Chuck end or at the tail stock end because it's too well supported there. But there's no support in the center section of the bar. So taking a spring pass or two will help to ensure uniform diameter throughout the entire length.
Generally speaking, spring passes can be successfully performed on softer materials like brasses and aluminums and coppers and low carbon steels. But once you start getting up into the super alloys category, taking a spring pass would probably not work well at all..... Because these materials work harden easily and the cutter would not cut - it would only rub.
@@johndonlan5956 Thank you for answering. I have had some poor surface finishes with spring passes on many steels and my lathe limits speed to 50 rpm with the door open so using sandpaper is not that effective. Maybe there is a door lock override function to allow sanding like one can do on a manual lathe but do not know yet.
For your own safety, if you do find a door safety mechanism override.... And you want to use some abrasive substance to polish you're turning work down to size..... Never do it single-handedly. Always used two hands. There is a temptation to wrap the sandpaper around the shaft as it's spinning, however you could very easily lose fingers or your hand that way. Get some Emery cloth, tear it into a long strip, and hold it openly with two hands against the far side of the turning piece (thus the emery cloth will form an exaggerated u-shape looking from the side). Do not let the two ends of the emery cloth touch each other (forming a closed loop around the workpiece) because in an instant the paper could catch on the workpiece and quickly wrap itself and your hand around the spinning shaft.
@@Jessie_Smith Looks like I missed an opportunity to thank you too sir. Like your work, although I have never even seen a 5 axis machine in real life.
What is surface footage?
Surface footage is a measurement of how much distance a carbide insert or tool tip will travel in a minute. For instance, 120 sfm means:. 120 feet (across a surface) in one minute.
On a CNC lathe this is most noticeable when doing facing operations. You program in a certain surface footage, but as the tool is getting closer and closer to the center of rotation the spindle speed is going faster and faster. Why is this? .... It's because the amount of surface (diameter) it's becoming smaller and smaller as the tool approaches the center of rotation..... But because a certain surface footage has been written into the program the machine tries to maintain that surface footage by speeding up the spindle speed as the surface becomes smaller and smaller.
This is also noticeable when doing turning. Every turning pass that's deeper than the last one..... Cuts the diameter smaller. In order to maintain the programmed surface footage, you will notice that the spindle speeds up more and more with each deeper cut. The reason? As the diameter gets smaller on each cut there is less surface!
Think about it for a while. You'll start to understand.
@@johndonlan5956 cool. We call it "skjærehastighet" in Norway. Translates directly to cutting speed :)
I have lots of good memories watching stupid people push the feed rate in titanium like they were machining stainless steel, and some dumb people that follow tool manufacturers speeds n feeds guideline actually destroys tools and scrap parts.
A lot of tool manufacturer Representative are like car salesmen.
They tell you what they want you to hear and not what you need to know.
So true
Average Chip Thickness is the key
Turns in part equals wear on insert.
THISSSSS!!!
Does this apply to cutting wood on 3018?
yes you want to make chip and not saw dust
It applies to cutting pretty much anything.. its just how much can you get away with depending on the material. In wood you can burn the material which means you are rubbing too much. TONS of different wood specific end mills for varying applications though.
que tengas una hermosa tarde👍👍👍
sorry I wasn't listening, I was watching the spinny thing make red sparks
Бум!
In most cases you up the spindle speed and drop the feed .
Oh yeah Doosan machines are crap too !
Kennametal tools and inserts are garbage !