Going Off-Grid: Propane, A Wise Choice
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Using propane as a storable and economical fuel source in on off-grid home makes sense to me. I can safely store 1 or 2 years worth of fuel buried on my property and not worry about prices going up or fuel not being available due to power outages. Propane may be a fuel for you to consider as you work towards being off-grid.
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It certainly is a wise choice. When you need those tanks refilled I would be happy to come over
FYI he uses charcoal to grill.
@@PepeDeezNutz HWAT?!
@@hankhill4254 you heard me!
Looking good. When I was a little kid I used to think those tanks were one man submarines.
Great job! A project like this is just a transfar of money. Money from a bank to useable goods at your location. I teach the moto "Don't use the store as your pantry!" This can be true with you fuel too. Putting 2 years worth of fuel in the ground is as smart a the squarel storing acorns up for the winter. Dave great job and thank for taking us along for the ride.
LOL, it's Anodes, sacrificial anodes. Great idea with going with propane. @ years worth of heating power buried in the ground. I might plant something to obscure the gas risers. If you keep the small surface tank with the 1/2 inch line, no one would even look for the other tanks. Great video.
How marvelous and a beautiful blessing. Congratulations on your new home.
Blessings to you and your family !
I’m installing a 1000 gallon tank also. I’m thinking of having it sprayed with Line X that way it has a forever barrier. Also putting limestone in the hole for non ground contact and easier drainage. Should outlive me.
I"m glad you posted this. My 10 year plan has me moving to unimproved land in the boonies and I've been interested in finding out the costs and possibilities for off the grid utilities. I've been thinking about a methane generator up to now. Basically a big tank of water that you dump grass clippings into. The grass clippings break down and release methane. The methane is captured and lined to where ever you need to use it. The instructional video I saw indicated you can get a day's worth of stove use for cooking off of a unit the size of one of those large rolling recycling bins. Once you build it, the only cost is the labor of putting new clippings into it as the old clippings are broken down. Also, the water becomes a super rich compost tea, so what ever you add in, you get out an equal amount of compost tea.
those guys installing and filling are just standing there like "damn what is this guy talking about"
Your move here is 100% pure genius. I will now model my future off-grid retirement cabin propane storage method after yours. I owe you a debt of gratitude for presenting this video.
I love what your doing. My thought was to maybe put a metal shed over these tanks to cut down on moisture. Your thoughts
I have a 500 gallon propane tank next to the house with two gas furnaces, a few years back they put three hundred gallons in and handed me a bill for 1500 dollars.
That's when I pulled the two prefab fireplaces out and put wood stoves in, I did tell them that would never happen again.
You can have propane, and yes the tank is still there with propane in it.
The whole house is propane, now I use it for cooking and heating water, solar water heating is next.
I am with you 100% .... to have propane storage on site just in case that hurricane hits and you are out of power for 1 week ... With this propane you can run a nice 22k watt generator which will supply power to your house. The more you have the longer it will last ...
Hi there, agree with you on all the calculations. We have propane and when we need to fill up, there are three companies that deliver. I've found that the cheapest months to buy seem to be March and October. I called and let them know I'm pricing a refill and they get pretty competitive on price. When they came around offering natural gas, with a $4500 hook up fee that would be added to your bill monthly, we said no thank you with a smile on our face.
NIce video, and great idea! I saw that 500 gal sitting above ground close to the home. If it was me I would keep it there filled also just in case it would make a good decoy for a theif looking for fuel. Better to let them think all you have is that above ground one. Thanks for sharing!
Great setup, power prices will keep increasing so good idea to have that gas supply to be more self sufficient.
Here in Australia where we live electricity is 28c a Kw and increasing which is one reason why we are going off grid.
Bush Block Homestead Electricity is still pretty cheap here in Idaho compared to other states. I know Hawaii and California people are paying almost 40c/kWh. I am just ahead of the crowd here. When everyone wants solar or propane installed here that is not the time to get it.
DrBill
We also have to pay a service fee every quarter of approximately $85, So even if we use no power at all in that 3 months it will still cost us $85 here in Queensland Australia.
Not sure if you have a similar setup in the US.
I also made a calculation and solar PV heating is cheaper than both propane and natural gas.
Currently I use propane as temporary heating but small barbecue tanks that are quite expensive at the moment 30 Canadian dollar / tank and each tank has about 4 gallon (8kg) that is about 100kWh so the price is around 33cent/kWh
I have a small and well insulate house that is offgrid and this house about 700sqft (65sqm) needs about 10 to 12 of those barbecue tanks/ month in the coldest months. Winter is quite harsh and long here so I need about 40 to 50 in a heating season that is about 160 to 200 gallons for reference.
Solar PV heating will be done with just Solar PV panels and resistive heat element embedded in under the ceramic tiles over the large insulated concrete slab. the concrete slab is used as a thermal storage there are 14 cubic meter of concrete that can store about 100kWh at a 10C temperature difference.
So I do not need any batteries or inverters for heating.
Solar PV panels are well under 1$/W in quantities and they last at least 25 years before thy get to 80% of their initial output.
Each 1W of solar panel will produce at my location about 1.5kWh/year so in 25 years I get 37.5 but with the panel degradation maybe closer to 33kWh so 1$/33kWh= 3 cent/kWh this seems really good and will be true if I can find a good use for the energy in the summer. But even if I only use them for heating and not use them at all in summer I can get to maybe 7 cent/kWh still one of the best option. and I used 1$/W but I can get in the quantities that I need panels even at 0.7$/W at the moment.
I'm curios if you took direct PV heating in your calculations.
Is true you need to pay for 25 years of heating in advance but as you mentioned you are sure you do not have any surprises.
Also electric heating is cleaner and more reliable do to simplicity.
WoooHooo... A LDSPrepper Video! - Nice Tanks!
Assuming that the shtf does not happen because the distribution centers have no way to fill the delivery trucks when the grid goes down because they are not usually smart enough to have propane generators to power their pumps
Add propane lights 3 to 10 to your home. For back up.
We have a 2000 sqft house in NH. We also have a 500 gallon propane tank. It typically would cost us $1800-$2000/yr for heat (forced hot air) and hot water. We purchased a pellet stove and now spend about $600-$700/yr for heat (as comfortable) and perhaps $400/yr for propane (just for hot water now and occasional furnace use while away). Pellets in our area run about $275/ton. Of course we pay much higher per gallon for propane (about $3.15/gallon) due to our low volume. I do like the peace of mind though knowing I have a mostly full tank "just in case".
Welcome to Idaho ! I follow your videos with interest. Years ago we owned a business and used quite a lot of propane. We would refill the tanks during periods of the year when demand was low and the price would drop. If you check with your local provider, they will be able to tell you which months that is in your area. It will probably not be in the middle of the summer as you might think, farmers use propane to run large irrigation pumps. (We own an Irrigation Company and a pipe extrusion company, We are about 120 miles away.) I am looking forward to your Green House results. I am very interested in doing a similar project. In fact, I would like to do many of the self-reliant projects you are doing. I was planning on doing a Walapini, but I think you have changed my mind on that one. Keep up the good work. Your videos are interesting. Thanks.
Great setup. That's exactly what I have planned in my mind for my future off-grid property.
OK, you convinced me. We're putting in some propane. That's a lot of stored energy.
We're still going with a super high efficiency heat pump, with propane backup. The heat pump we are putting in rivals geothermal.
My goal is all utilities to be less than $100 a month. With the solar I'm installing we should actually be a half that.
Thanks!
Yep, if ye are Prepared ye shall Not Fear, I love these Video's. I bought a 1000gal. Underground tank and you make me want a second tank!😉😆
I pay .25-.40 per KW in Northern CA
Looks great, David! Thanks for the video!
when you get your property all set up I would love to see a cost breakdown. I have often wondered how much these items cost and how easy it is to get contractors to install them for sustainable needs. TY
MsAnnabelleLee1 I am keeping track of all costs so I do can share that with you.
LDSPrepper
I really appreciate how much you share the costs of things. Many people are squeamish about that aspect of things. I understand but it helps us to have an idea and it satisfies are curiosity lol.
Very interesting,glad to see your move went ok,nice state to,welcome to the north side.
Very exciting watching your place come together. I am also a propane user and would never go back to natural gas.
Why not? I'm currently on natural gas and it's dirt cheap. My gas bill never goes over 100 in the dead of winter and I run a hot water heater, central heating and have two gas fireplaces too that I run constantly when it's cold just because I like the look. And I keep it very warm. My electricity in those winter months runs 40-50... Is it just for the storable energy?
For me it is the storability of propane. I have had natural gas in the past as well.
How much more do you pay? from my calculations, I would be paying 2-3 times as much as I do now if I go to propane, which is unsustainable for me, so I may go total electric with solar. Electricity here is 8 cents a KWH. I figure I can make electricity, but I can't make propane. But I'm still tempted to go propane...
I love how the guys at the beginning of the video are looking at you like you're nuts.
Mick R I asked for their permission to film. They agreed. But you are right. They look a little puzzled.
You said your water heater was propane. Why not do a solar one?
Truly great project, very informative video! Your videos are an amazing help! Jim & Lisa
Awesome video David, thanks.
Very well thought out! It's great you're in a position to make these changes. Electricity is getting expensive. The irony is that people like me who are paying as we go end up paying more than those who are able to pay up front. Hopefully, we'll be in a position someday to pay up front, so to speak.
If your reason to do this is big enough, you'll find a way to do it. It's all about priorities and planning. YOU can do what this person did. And you can save the money this person is saving. Don't let people tell you that you are a victim and can't do what "the other guy" did.
Jason Graves Yeah-- thanks for the exhortation. You're right-- it can be done, if it's a priority.
OhHowHappyGardener
I hope you have a great day!
Shouldve screened your spoils before back filling or bought clean fill for this purpose. Those rocks are potential chips in the epoxy coating. 🤞 hope not..
Thanks for sharing, great video and information. I too live in the same state and am thinking similarly for our home. Haven't made the leap yet but this is where my thoughts are.
Kudos to you, hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving, xxx
If ye are Prepared, ye shall Not Fear!! I ABSOLUTELY love it. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
In Virginia we had to have old oil tanks dug up and cleaned per the EPA before properties change hands. But I suppose propane doesn't leak like that. I think you made a good choice though.
Tanks for the video!
sure do enjoy these david ... very informative ... we're trying to close out on 10 acres in north north florida and are planning to do alot of what youre doing ... thank you so much for your videos
nat
I am in Jacksonville and I wonder about farming and being off grid. Do you expect any challenges in this arena in the area you will be purchasing property?
I personally have gone a different route... I own TEN 1000 lb. propane tanks and numerous 40lb and even 30lb. propane tanks... and keep them in a locked storage area above ground... Main reason for this is PORTABILITY and FLEXIBILITY... (I keep them filled at all times... my main source knows me well and gives me a price break) I know it costs more.. I don't care....
A great idea. We have natural gas but this is a great backup. Our furnace can be converted to LP fairly easily. We also have NG for our cooking range. I believe those as well can be converted. If you are in Cardston we would like you and your wife to drop in and see us. Ben has our address and #.
Thank you for your comment and kindly invite Lee. Natural gas is generally much cheaper then propane but it can't be stored. Nice that you have both options at your place.
Isn't the point of off the grid self sustainability? When TSHF how will you get refills? Seems like the money would be better used for solar and wind?
bio gas make your own!
Every comment you make is negative. Give it a rest.
I'm not bashing you but please remember that you need to include the initial cost of the tasks plus installation in your price per unit.
I like the idea! The only con that I can think of might be that: if your fittings are not tight, or you have a small leak of any kind, you could have a problem. I am sure you'll be fine, but, I recommend you have some type of failsafe for a leak. The propane tank I once had did have tiny leak (it was an older tank). I guess you could just check it often and after servicing. I'm not trying to be a negative nelly, just giving you my opinion.
For one 500 gallon buried tank in north texas: just over $2,500. But I can get the propane for $1.60 a gallon, so I'm rethinking using propane.
thanks for the video
I can't believe you're only paying $1.49. I called the other day and it was $2.35... I thought Texas was CHEAPER ?!!??
TexasPrepper2 In Idaho the best time to buy propane is during the summer. I understand it doubles in price in the Winter.
congrats my friend!
That's a lot of propane great idea.
southernmost homesteader Thank you.
I thought for underground protection is that you mummify the cylinder with a cloth wrapped around and soaked in tar !
Looks good! Not sure it's legal in Indiana to bury propane tanks.
Check for small leaks
HEY OK NOW THIS IS WHAT I WOULD DO WITH THSES TANKS GREAT JOB..MY GENARATOR AND TANKS WOULD BE IN THE GROUND THANKS.I PLAN ON HAVEING A DIESEAL AND PROPANE COMB AT MY HOME IAM PLANING BACK IN GA. WHEN I GET BACK FROM PANAMA..TAKE CARE DIRT FARMER MICHAEL USNAVYRETIRED LIVING IN THE COUNTRY OF PANAMA..(GOD AND COUNTRY)..BE SAFE BE WELL..
Another great way to not have fear is to not suffer from paranoia.
Yes, numb out those emotions like a reptile
Could you share some more of the costs involved in this? I figured the cost of the propane from what you gave us, but am wondering about the tanks and cost associated with installation and appliance conversion. I hope to do the same eventually. thanks for sharing your experiences...you are my giant.
Thank You David for your informative videos. We look forward to your postings : ). We are still a little confused as to why you converted your appliances to propane when you will be producing over three times your needs from your solar panels. Won't the solar energy be free at some point as opposed to always needing to refill your propane tanks at an unknown and probably increasing price?
David, if you are converting most of your appliances to propane, what will you use your solar power for? Lucy
Just guessing, but maybe since most everything else will be running off propane, the solar will take care of lights and fridge and computer (electronic) type things completely. I don't know how much A/C is needed up there, but it's a sure bet it's not as much OR as long a season for A/C as down in Texas.
Lucy Stern Because we converted most of our appliances to propane we can run everything and anything else in the house off of our solar with no worries. The solar company install crew was here yesterday and tested our electrical load with our furnace, lights, computers, wifi, etc, all running. We were only using 15 amps. Our solar panel system will deliver 50-60 amps.
That is really different from here in central Texas. I don't really think we're that high in humidity, considering I moved from the coast, where it was almost always near 100% all the time..... but in the dead of summer, when it's so brutally hot here, if your ac isn't pumping, if you walk in the house, the heat is almost as bad as outside, if not exactly the same. I lost most of my shade trees during the drought a couple of years ago, so my house is like an oven. The older I get, the WORSE I hate extreme temps. Texas is extreme, but I'll bet Idaho is extreme in the winter, so..... guess Hawaii would be a wonderful moderate.
DrBill Yea and in the valley down here in Lewiston....hotter!
NOT missing summer..... at ALL!!! LOL www.accuweather.com/en/us/bryan-tx/77803/month/331110?monyr=8/01/2014
Explain why you use propane for appliances when you have solar? And what is output on rainy overcast days? Thanks!
Why would you transfer all your appliances to propane if you are going solar? Wont the gas cost be higher as you transfer all the appliances? Seems to me that solar power should power everything and gas should be for heat. Just my opinion but free sunlight resource vs having a gas bill every month seems to me you have it backwards. Please explain if I’m missing something.
I would worry that when the tanks get low, the tanks could pop out of the ground if it rained a lot and the ground turned to muck.
Shouldn’t concern you, it doesn’t happen
@@aron6998 But it certainly can happen if the tanks are not secured properly, which doesn't seem to be the case in the video. I recently watched Costco build a gas bar from scratch. They use 15 heavy nylon straps with ratchets over each tank that are hooked to thick rebar which is embedded in a heavy concrete foundation that each tank sits on.... that's the reason you don't see tanks coming out of the ground.... but I see nothing like that in the video.... hence my comment.
Dennis S my comment comes from installing these tank for 20 yrs and there’s no such thing as using straps to secure an underground tank, the only worry is if you have a extremely high clay content and the water table is very high I mean like dig two inches and find water, but when tanks are buried typically you back fill with sand or gravel (sand is best) however looks like in this case the soil is fairly rocky so they reused the material that is there which I would still not do but that’s just me i quote backfill bc you never know what’s below the surface, I’ve literally have only seen one tank resurface and it was bc the company that installed it didn’t use proper backfill and it was buried approximately 100’ from a lake edge and when they dug down it was essentially below the water surface and the homeowner told me he seen water come into the hole as they dug but they told him there was no need to worry well I can tell you if the water table is that high yes it will be a problem eventually, which is why I refuse to bury tanks that close to a lake or bayou
I understand the usefulness of a propane powered generator for a backup or supplement, but why use appliances that are powered by propane that you depend on the propane company for when you have all that solar power that is being generated? Wouldn't it be better to go all electric with solar panels (more if necessary) and use propane for emergencies only, like when the grid is down and production is low due to short days and/or clouds, fog, etc.? Would an electric range, water heater and clothes dryer use too much electricity for your grid-tied system to allow you to break even over the course of a year?
I agree
Awesome 😀
Which means you will use more fuel per year too
Plus propane does not give you the same btu per gal of fuel us diesel
How come you opted out of the propane refrigerator?
It is a good idea to bury the tanks. Out of sight of the prowlers. You do not want people to raid you during an apocalypse.
How is Natureal Gas cheaper than propane?
I'm currently designing my home and propane here in Texas can get VERY expensive, up to $3.50 a gallon. One thing I know... I can make electricity. I can't make propane. I'm still on the fence though...
davjan4 You might call your local propane distributor and ask what the price of propane was in August. It is a lot less expensive in summer than in winter.
I'm wondering about the technicalities of doing this. Are there guidelines somewhere to help people with this? I'm wondering about different things like the type of soil you have. It appeared to be fairly gravely, which would drain better than a clay/loam soil like we have. This would of course matter if you are burying metal tanks. Of course, maybe the coating (what is that?) would make it so that it doesn't matter. Thanks for your great videos!
Jason Graves A good idea is to check with your local propane dealer to see if it is possible to bury tanks in your area. As you can see here it is no problem.
LDSPrepper
Thank you sir. God Bless you.
J a tank can be buried in any soil, however the more clay you have it is highly advisable to backfill the hole with a sand or gravel to about 80% then finish the backfill with the material that was dugout, this allows for better drainage and yes the coating is the first step in protection and the anodes are the second step if the coating is scratched during transport or install those scratches must be field repaired this is extremely important
Heading out of town... don't have time to watch this right now but looking forward to it. Did you come up with a good way to make it so you don't have to dig up the cathode every 5 years?
NICE...
My experience has shown me propane will sour over time. Will you consume it before it goes bad?
The effect of it is a liquid like build-up in the lines, that makes your appliance start to work poorly until it just gets plugged with the fluid.
I may be talking out my arse here as it may have only happened to me. But I have had to replace regulators that get filled with this stuff. And you have to blow the lines with a compressor. This is from tanks that were small, BBQ type, and sat for years..
Most people just chuck the BBQ grills when they start to fail..which is the same stuff I am talking about, as the fluid plugs the lines and regulator.
ANyhow, looks like a great setup you have with those tanks! And if it does last, I think you could add a few years to your estimate if you were in a pinch!
Yeah this is not a thing that happens at all in residential propane systems it does happen in liquid systems for vehicles which there is a small amount of maintenance to be done with the vaporizer about every year or two
Yes, I agree with your calculations based on HEAT efficiency. BUT, we do not live in a 100% heat efficient world. The large electric plants are only 20% efficient at converting heat to electricity, a combustion engine is only about 10% efficient at converting heat into electricity. So, if I assume you have a very efficient generator running on propane, you will be paying $0.28 per KWh ($1.50/gal propane @ 20% efficiency)
in your gas/electric calculation does it take into consideration that gas is not as as efficient as electric? for example, when heating with gas some of the heat goes out the flue. Keep the videos coming. they are great!
2020tesla Good question. The calculation is for BTU comparison.
+2020tesla Natural gas appliances are more efficient at heating than electric ones.
+Jemalacane0 They are? electric is 100% efficient. electric clothes dryers are usually cheaper because the gas company charges less per therm than the equivalent KW. in the case of electric room heating there is no waste that goes up the flue. every watt goes into heating the room. If you aren't paying for electricity then it sounds like you would want electric appliances. but these are very high usage items and the sun doesn't shine at night. so the clothes line is probably the most efficient.
It's impossible for things to be 100% efficient because the universe always goes from higher to lower energy and energy loss is always a factor. Yes, gas appliances are more efficient for the simple fact that natural gas is more energy dense. Gas appliances use tiny amount of gas to yield a given output whereas electric ones use a lot of electricity for the same output.
are teh two tanks tied together in some way, or will there be a 'transfer switch'... i'd assume you wouldn't let either get to empty anyways, but interested to know the 'plumbing'. also have you thought about geothermal heat for the house as well? even less use of propane... it's not cheap but no fossil fuels at all. electricity for the heat exchanged is via solar
The tops of the fill locations of the tanks will be above ground what more do you need to tell you tank locations ?
did you think about how electricity is 100% efficient when heating, propane will not be. also if you put in geothermal heating and cooling, would that cost less than using propane?
When you had your house wired for solar and a new propane line put in, did you set it up for the tri-powered generator so you can plug it in and use a quick disconnect L.P. hose?
Solar power is better. I wood think you wouldn’t needed propane tanks.
You had the open trench so why not run the 4 inch tubes and create a geothermal garden house on top of that area? Why not make it a dual purpose area?
I suppose you might run a risk of the water from the plants leaching down into the ground and affecting the tanks in a negative way?
Indeed :)
When they are filling in your tank for ya, how can you tell if they are shortchanging you? Thanks.
David - Good choice you've made. I work in the natural gas industry and live in a coal mining community. I have seen first hand how the coal industry is being phased out as an energy source. The coal fired power plants will soon be no more and unfortunately we the electric consumers will foot the bill for the next much more expensive energy source for the power plants.
***** Thank you for sharing your personal experience. I wish you and your community well.
Hey , LDSP . Was it a one stop shop , from the local propane company? Or , did you buy tanks so you can go with any supplier ? I hear buying in bulk is cheaper anyway .
Why not make tanks out of aluminum
Don't they need to inspect the tanks before they fill them? How will you know when they become unsafe? I do like the idea of under ground.
So it’s law that the supplying propane company do periodic soil tests to make sure tanks aren’t leaking in ground and they also must do a cathodic test to ensure that the anodes are still active and working within a certain voltage
Vault 614 that makes sense.
LDS; is there a remote fuel gauge in your house or at the tanks so you know when 1 needs refilled? Do they 'auto-switch- to full tank after 1st goes empty?
SpockMcoy Issmart The tanks have gauges on them so I can check any time.
Anoids. Is that similar to hemmoroids?
Anodes is the correct spelling
What is the storage life of the propane? Janice
It will last as long as the tanks don’t suffer damage.
are anoids better than anodes for corrosion resistance??? 😂
How long does the propane last and how much do you use it a day and for what?
Propane does not degrade it will be useable forever
What happens if it gets where you cant get gas? I would of had electric. With electric there are tons of possibilities to keep it going
Always Armed88 Please watch the first video in this playlist. It outlines all of my off-grid energy sources, one being solar.
Ok i thought you were just relying on gas lol. Good job man
Does propane "go bad"? Gas has to be treated if it's not used. Is propane similar?
No propane doesn’t go bad
A simple woodstove is better.
Do you own or lease your tanks? How much was each tank if you bought?
davjan4 We purchased the tanks. I think I mentioned the prices in the video.
Annoids? .....isn't it anode?
dude where all your bees
Is it normal up there to burry propane tanks or is that a security decision? I live in CA and have never seen a buried propane tank.
You haven't seen one buried because it's buried. Sorry, just had to say it. I don't think it's security reasoning or that common. He gave the reasons in the video. Aesthetics, the ability to get more propane at a time (90% fill vs 80% which is standard) The volume of it was to enable getting better prices. I suppose there would be better security in some ways by burying it (you couldn't shoot it or knock it over and it would be easier to hide), but the gas could still be stolen if someone knew where to look. They would just need a setup to pump it out. That's my thoughts.
Jason Graves OK. I was thinking maybe there was a freeze issue being in Idaho? IDK. Just seemed weird and like a lot of effort & cost. Enjoy your Turkey.
no, temperatures don't matter, I don't think, until you get below -20. I think a problem occurs more at -40. Good time to stay inside. -25 gets mighty nippy REALLY quick. It's fun to make snow with boiling water though when it gets that cold. Enjoy your Thanksgiving time as well Joe.
J don’t need a pump to steal liquid propane just a valve and hose, extremely easy
how long and how much it cost to set up one like your propane tank ?
Stanley Vo I'm sure the cost of underground tanks and fuel varies depending on location but here I purchased the new tank for about $2,500 and the used one for about $1,800. The fuel costs $1.499 per gallon. I bought about 2,000 gallons of fuel.
LDSPrepper Who did you get 1.50 per gallon, I got A-1 coming out tomorrow for 1.59/gal for about 1000gal