This dude is probably staying late working on these videos off hours and putting together some of the most earnest sounding and informative content I’ve ever seen on YT to help people go into a potentially predatory environment more informed. Criminally under subbed if you ask me. Awesome job.
@@FlyingWrenches13 New to me 2019 3.5. 67k, found cam phasers were done at 34k under warranty, they used the HL3Z phasers😞. Should I be flood starting it when cold to prevent these from going out? Love your videos!
Hey Mayson, thanks for more info on this. I’m one of the “lucky” ones I guess. Had 21B10 done about 3 weeks ago and about 2 days later was cruising through my neighborhood and felt the shudder. It’s pretty bad, very easy to feel and for a gearhead like me it was alarming. I was in 5th gear as I recall only taching about 1100 rpm with very slight throttle input. There’s a sweet spot for it. If you add throttle or back off it stops. Now what I do is drop into “M” manual mode and hold it in 4th to keep the revs up around 1400. No issue. I’ll go back and have them reverse it. The worst part is the rattle hasn’t changed at all. If it sits for more than 15-20 min you can bank on a rattle at startup. The longer it sits the louder and longer it is. After 3-4 days it’s a full 2 second count. That’s a long time to hear the racket! Thanks again man. Appreciate you sharing the knowledge.
THANK YOU for the videos and the time you spent doing them. Was at our local dealership today to pick up my 2019 F150 Fx4 with the 5.0 / 10sp and asked him to check for any recalls I may have. He said there were none....funny thing. That cold start noise happens every year on my truck always in the winter....huh, and no recalls...nothing. I went on to ask about by 2019 Expedition MAX with the 3.5 EB / 10sp again with the cold start rattling noise. He says the 1st software update had not been done and I am now out of warranty to fix the rattling sound and repairs will cost around $4k and some change. I'm at 65k miles and we bought the vehicle as a certified pre-owned from a Ford dealership. No one ever mentioned anything about the recalls, never received any letters....nothing. Instead, I get TONS of phone calls, texts and emails to trade for more new units. So I am quite certain Ford knows exactly how to contact me. I have bought 8 new Ford trucks and SUV's since 2003 for personal plus 3 F450 and up. What would you say is my best route to take? I love my Fords but this might be a deal breaker going forward.
Got my 2018 F-150 as a demo from a dealer with 2200 miles. At about 35,000 I heard the rattle for the first time after remote starting. It had been sitting for 4 days at the airport. Being a former mechanic, when you hear a sound like that you picture metal shavings in the oil. I drove it home and drained it - clean. No debris, no metal. It was a few weeks before I heard it again. Now at 58,000 it hammers on about 90% of starts, cold or not. If it sits for more than 30 minutes odds are it will rattle. When it’s cold, 2-3 seconds - trust me that’s a long time for this sound as a mechanic. When warmer maybe 1 sec. Had the 21b10 done last week. Zero change. I would love to know where you are and have you work on my truck. You care about what you do and have the passion for this work like I did. Great job.
@@FlyingWrenches13 dude I'm not far from you in cantonment FL. Are you at the dealership in atmore? Next time I have an issue I'll have to drop it off with y'all.
I bought a 2012 ecoboost brand new still have it I have about 120k miles on it. It has been rattling on cold start for a few years now. It has not hurt it. Still runs great.
Just wanted to drop a quick comment and say thank you for your video.. I am an ASE tech but I do not work at a dealership.. customer brought me his 2018 F-150 with this nasty noise and was telling me about the update they had done.. I do not have the luxury of getting info from Ford in fact when I call and ask a dealer about such things I get the old.. "you just need to let us do the repair" speach..I have identifix which is very helpful with such recalls and info on them but sometimes I understand a little better having it told to me instead of reading it..lol. thanks for the video and help on this problem and I will keep up with your videos as we continue to repair the engineers bright ideas on paper.... that just didn't work in reality.. 😳 did I say that out loud ? lol.. thanks again
Have been dealing with every bit of this with my 2018 3.5 and just had the 21N03 completed. The dealership here in Oregon has been trying to do right by me from the get go and get this fixed which I have appreciated. This issue certainly isn’t because their technicians aren’t doing a good job or capable. They are at the mercy of the original build. This vid (and the others on it) add a ton of helpful context for me as to what the heck is going on, so thank you for posting them. It’s actually more frustrating and discomforting NOT to know. Makes one nervous. Hopefully Ford isn’t wagging their finger at you for sharing. I actually much prefer this kind of honesty and transparency. Yeah, they “don’t make them like they used to,” but nobody does so enough of that BS romance. And, yes, my Ford loyalty is being tested by all of this (and a door that wouldn’t latch when it got below freezing outside…also fixed by dealer, btw, and a few other minor things), but there’s a ton of things I DO love about the truck and hope Ford continues to just be brutally honest with themselves and acknowledge (and fix) things when they aren’t working right. That builds trust. These purchases are big financial commitments and you just want to know that the builders and dealers of these recognize that and stand by them. Hope mine is good to go now but we’ll see. If I have another problem, at least I know what YT’er I’ll turn to and see what might be going on!
Great info 👍 Bought my 2011 in 14' with 59000 miles. now have over 250000 M. Always used 10W30 synthetic oil over the 5W30 ford recommends with no issues. Oil life reset to 70%. Sometimes get a little cold start rattle after sitting a long time. All I do to prevent the rattle is hold accelerator to floor for 2 seconds when cranking to allow oil to reach top end and release pedal allowing engine to start. It won't start with pedal to floor.
Thanks! Holding accelerator to the floor does work. Only issue I have with that is explaining to customers that in their 60k dollar truck they have to hold the gas pedal to the floor and crank there engine for a few seconds every time it’s cold to prevent the rattle.
@@FlyingWrenches13 Why can't ford do an ECM update that just lets the truck crank for 2 seconds before it fires the ignition so the phasers get oil pressure first?
@@FlyingWrenches13 Doesn't work for me, even did it twice (all the battery would allow) before letting it start. 2013 with 115k, had 89k when it started
Bought my 2011 f150 3.5 in 2018 with 127k miles. It now has 164k miles and I haven’t heard the start up rattle yet. I change the oil every 3-5k with full synthetic MobilOne and Motorcraft filter. I’ve had the 6R80 tranny issues fixed on an extended warranty I purchased with the vehicle. Should I stay with it or should I go? Wrestling with that question.
Great detailed explanation on this issue. I have a 17 xlt 3.5 and experienced the vct rattle aat 60500 miles just out of warranty. The dealership did give me a break on the job and while they were replacing the vct I had them do new timing chains plugs belt tensioner since they were already in there. After I got it back at around 98k it started rattling again I took it back and they took it back apart and told me that a bolt that held the belt tensioner on the head was stripped out and that was causing the rattle and they had to replace the drivers side head instead of just doing a heelicoil. So I have a new oem head on drivers side and passenger side original. Morning after rattle open start up I brought back and they had it over night only to tell me that everything checks out and they said nothing is wrong but obviously there is. The stripped out bolt was their fault when they cross threaded the bolt when they did the vct replacement at 60k so where do I go from here? I've watched a video fordboss put out on this and he seems to think it has to do with oil pressure and had a suggestion to try to prove his point. That being hold your foot on the brake and put the gas to the floor turn key to on and crank the motor for 5 seconds to get the oil pressure up then start the engine which I did and the rattle was gone at start up so his suggestion proves its an oil pressure issue. Ford also did the pcm upgrade with no success. Any info would help me. My truck has 107k on it and it runs very strong still. Thanks
I think your 100% right about oil flow being the cause. My 2014 F150 eco 3.5 L started rattling around 85000 miles. I notice when I change the oil it quiets down for awhile than comes back as the oil breaks down . I also find it helpful and less rattling at startup when I turn the key on but don't start the engine until the oil pressure gauge has come up and the bell chimes finish. This seems to quiet the rattle and sometimes prevent it. This is why I believe it's a oil flow issue as well. Great video, look forward to many more.
mann i have a 2015 3.5 tt bought used eith 18k miles now at 90k miles ive been using the wthod of turning the key and not starting it until i stop hesring the chime and i se the gauge go up a bit no rattles here i change my oil every 4k miles and ocasianally drive like a bat out of hell hope to get another 75k miles out of it before trade in
I had 21B10 performed on my 2019 and the truck drove terrible and sluggish after. I never had the cold start rattle, and the truck ran great. I just did not want to worry about the rattle after my warranty expired because I plan on keeping the truck for a while. After the update the transmission would shift much sooner and bring the rpms down lower while accelerating. It didn't necessarily have a "shutter", but it made the truck not as much fun to drive, and felt like it was getting bogged down. I waited a few months to let the truck re-learn itself after the new update but it never got any better. I brought it back to the dealer to have 21N08 performed and explained my situation. After 21N08, it is back to being the truck it was before and I am much happier with it. I never saw any other changes with it other than the drivability. Thanks for all the great info!
Where was your shutter at? Mine seems to have a slight shutter right off of idle as i begin accelerating. Happens for like 1 second when I initially apply throttle and then its gone but its very subtle. I can't tell if its the engine or the Toyo AT3s
Had cam phasers replaced at 30,000. Then had the 21b10 update done. Had really bad shuttering, Bogging down, gears staying in 9th-10th on slight inclines or even slower speeds of 25 to 30mph. Took back to ford 3 days latter, they replaced cam phasers again. Trucks does run better, but still has some of same conditions of the 21b10 update. Just doesn't seem to be same as it used to be. Don't know if they reprogrammed back the 21n08. Dealer service writers says trucks got the latest update in it. Cant seem to get an answer on which updates in truck after phaser replacement. When you say reprogrammed back to 21n08, are you meaning like in a utube video I saw them on a laptop going through items with the 21b10 update. They came to a page that said, does truck exhibit shutter or no shutter. If tech says yes truck has shutter, will that put truck back to 21n08, or will they have to put it in differently or something else. great video, you did good!
2014 ecoboost with 172000 miles, had a rattle with every startup when bought @ 90000 miles, have changed the oil to full synthetic instead of Dino/blends (previously done by 1st owner) and since then the rattle frequency has dropped drastically to literally once in a while. Definitely tolerable. Good to know nothing will happen if it doesn't get fixed since that is the route I'm taking. Thanks for the video and info, great job.
I had the same start up rattle. One way to solve it is hold the gas pedal all the way down while cranking the engine for about3 seconds to build pressure, then release it. But, a better way is to use Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer with full synthetic oil and the startup rattle when away. I will do this with every oil change from now on.
Mason, Consider 5.4L 3 Valve. The issues were with the phasers. They did have mechanical issues that caused them to "rattle", until oil pressure was achieved, (until they beat themselves to death). These 3.5L Eco-Pukes phasers should be able to "lock" at base cam timing, thus not allowing them to rattle or knock at cold start. I made a post on your other video, regarding the 2018 F-150 I just finished and how the cams were rotating in the center portion of the phasers. As though they are not "locking". This was causing a vale train "snap" as the cams would be rolled over. Ford needs to address the "mechanical" portion of these phasers. All the best, Patrick
Great… just bought a 2020 used raptor that did not have this update. Definitely subscribed so I don’t miss out on any more information. It’s a shame $60,000 plus trucks have so many problems. I just traded in a 2006 Toyota Tacoma that I bought brand new. In 16 years it never broke down on me once, at 160,000 miles still had the original exhaust, and the biggest thing I ever had to do it it was replace a belt other than normal maintenance. I’m starting to regret my purchase of the Ford raptor with all of these recalls and issues.
I have a '13 F150 3.5 eco and it started making the cold rattle noise about a year ago. I just keep changing the oil using top quality synthetic oil frequently hoping that ignoring the noise won't cause permanent damage. Appreciate the info in this video!
I have a 2017 3.5 eco boost. I had my phasers redone in August of 2020 78k. I also had the 21B10 done earlier this year. Within the past week I’ve noticed the rattle has started again. Im going to go to the Ford dealer tomorrow to see what can be done but I’m approaching 99k shortly and my warranty will be out at 100k. I seriously wish Ford would find a better fix by now since this is their go to motor in most of their vehicles. I also read on the forums about people with the rattle allowing their vehicle to crank in order to build oil pressure and it seems like it works for most. Which seems to back up your leak down theory. It does take time in between starts to drop the pressure until it gets so worn that it does it upon every crank. I’m really not looking forward to having that horrible rattle back. Great video and thanks for the information.
Before I say this I want to say I worked for Ford in heavy line for 7 years. I had a raptor in early in 2018 back when this issue really started to come around. I put phasers in it, no metal contamination in the filter and it came back in 3 months. I did the original reprogram and phasers on its first repair attempt. When it came back tech hotline advised to check oil pressure at the oil sending unit (got like 35ish psi hot idle, 50ish psi 2k rpm hot). I then checked pressure on the oil pressure port in the back of the passenger side head and got 11 psi. I put a heads on it and rechecked pressure and got 13 psi at the back of the head. It came back a third time and our FSE advised to replace the long block and I never saw the truck again. Ford engines drop so much damn pressure by the time it reaches the phasers even if the oil control solenoid is 100% open I doubt it’s going to fully fix the issue. That was one truck. Between mid 17-mid 21 (when I left the company) I’d probably done hundreds if not thousands of phasers on gen 2 3.5L. My dads personal 17 f150 is going in on its 3rd set in 2 weeks. GOOD LUCK to the owners of these trucks. IF YOUR A CONSUMER READING THIS AND ARE STILL UNDER FACTORY POWERTRAIN 5/60k CONTACT YOUR SALES DEPARTMENT TO PURCHASE ESP COVERAGE!
I've had ESP coverage from the start. Doesn't help - the dealers just push you down the road and won't actually utilize it. It's like pulling teeth trying to get them to look further into my cam phaser issue.
if you don't end up using your ESP coverage by the time it expires you can ask the finance department at the purchasing dealer to cancel it. the only catch is that the vehicle has to be paid off but you can get that money back in the end.
Thank you for your videos. I have a similar issue with my 2021 Ford Edge ST. It is currently in the shop (about 3 weeks now) while they wait for parts. I shared the STB 23-2049 with the service folks who were able to confirm this as the issue. Car currently has 35,006 miles. Thank you again.
First - sub'd for being intelligent, articulate, and thorough. Next... the first problem with this frustrating issue is the service advisors when you walk into a dealership. Almost 100% of them have been extremely unhelpful and dismissive of this issue. The ones that took it seriously only did so initially. Once they realized the issue in my truck has persisted beyond their first attempts they give up and suddenly become dismissive. I have a 2017 raptor with nearing 80k miles. I have the Ford ESP plan at maximum coverage with $0 deductible. It's ridiculous that a vehicle with "Ford Performance" branded on my flooring as you step into it has this noise upon virtually every startup when my truck has sat for more than 15 minutes. A very expensive performance vehicle that sounds like a jalopy at each start. Usually once I get talking with an actual tech instead of a service advisor they come to the same conclusion here as Mason. That being said, I still don't want my very expensive truck to sound like this and I think it's unacceptable to be sent on my way with the expectation that I just accept it as it is. On top of that one or more of my belts are routinely squealing and though I've pointed it out and it's obviously heard when I'm turning my vehicle in for service, lo & behold when I pick it up on a later date afterwards it's got the same squeal but my paperwork says, "could not find or observe squeal described by customer." It's total horseshit and makes me wonder why I ever even bought from Ford to begin with. The last dealership I was at with this problem told me they don't HAVE to service my vehicle just because I have the ESP - that it's a choice for them to take on the service. This came about in conversation after I asked where do I go next since this issue is still present and I find it completely unacceptable. They became abrasive and suddenly began explaining to me that they are not required to take on a service with Ford ESP. Any advice for navigating dismissive bullshitting service advisors and getting results would be appreciated.
My 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost also has the belt squeal at startup when cold until I start driving it never drove in to that issue yet as I've only had the truck for about 6 months but I'm going to try using some belt dressing spray and see if that works as for the dealerships I don't think the problem is isolated to ford I've heard of horror stories about all makes, unfortunately they seem to just want there money from the initial sale not even considering how far word of mouth goes 🤷🏻♂️
First I want to say thanks for the compliments! It sounds like you have just found a dealer who doesn’t care about customer satisfaction. While it is true they don’t have to accept esp work, no dealer ever turns away business or at least none I’ve worked at. As bad as it is to say I would find somewhere else to take my vehicle and I would be calling FMC to complain.
@@FlyingWrenches13 I'm on my 3rd dealer already from them not wanting to try to get to the bottom of the issue. What really sucks is appointments are 2-4 weeks out, and when I get the truck there for me appointment they appear to have only made the appointment to acknowledge there's an issue and make me set up a NEW 2nd appointment to rectify the issue. Then when I get the vehicle back... same problem exists. When I push for something more to be done that's when I get the run around. I had to fight to get exterior amber and red led lights replaced, even though I paid extra to have exterior light protection with the ESP. When I say fight, I mean they told me "Ford" denied the claim. After asking what the hell I paid for then, they finally miraculously replaced them. 3 dealers? I'm not a jerk to these employees either. It just appears as though they could care less about warranty/ESP work.
Thanks for the info my 18 Limited Expedition Max just started. Took to dealer as they say no codes thrown. I told them I already diagnosed it. They sent me home. It has gotten substantially louder in the morning and it sounds like a diesel at idle….going back in tomorrow to show dealer the videos I took off the start in the last couple of days.
Great video. I have the rattle, though mild lasting a few seconds. However, To the point of it being a oil pressure issue, my truck sat for two weeks while I was on a trip. When I started after I got back it rattle like crazy for a good 10 seconds till the oil pressure built up.
I’m a Ram guy. Regardless I do love listening to your experience. Well explained with detail. I love doing mechanical work to some degree but I have a lot of respect for techs. Honest ones anyway. Cheers.
Greetings and thanks from Canada!! Appreciate you young buck!! Great video and super informative, well presented. I just got the Phaser rattle on my 2019 Raptor and have it scheduled for new phasers for next month. Wish me luck!!
Hi Mason. Great and very informative video. I know that you are probably bombarded with questions from other people and it and its impossible to respond to everyone but I'm going to give it a try in hopes that maybe you can advise me. Here is my issue. I recently purchased a 2019 F150 3.5L ecoboost. The truck went through PCM reprogram and had new phasers installed below 70K miles. The rattle came back shortly once the warranty expired. Since the bulletin said this was not detrimental to the engine we drove the truck with the rattle at startup. The rattle was progressively getting worse. Now at 104K miles the engine also developed a knocking sound along with the rattle and we stopped driving it. Doing some research I found that Ford has made an updated version of the phaser sprocket that starts with a letter M instead of H. Everyone on the forums says that the new style phasers should have been used during the recall. I went through my old paperwork and the replacement phasers for my truck were the old style ones (H). Why would they replace defective part for another part of the same kind? Should I expect/demand Ford to fix this again under the warranty? The truck is unusable at 104K and needs to be repaired again. Why would ford warranty this issue only up to 90K miles? Is that the true expectations for the life of the engine? My friend has a low cost commuter car and it has already over 250k miles on it without any issues. Here we are talking about the most popular, best selling truck in the US. thoughts
Mason, THANK YOU! I took your advice and saved >$2000 on this repair. I drive a 2018 F150 with a 3.5L EB. I have 72k miles (aka out of warranty, no prior PCM update, aka screwed!!). I was convinced I had >$3k vacating my bank account, and while I was at the Service Center at the dealership (where I originally purchased this vehicle), . I took your advice and phoned Ford Customer service, and they covered most of this repair, Customer Pay ~$750. I was wildly impressed with how diligently Ford Customer service followed up on this with the dealership service center once I contacted them. @FordMotorCompany and the dealership service center you work at should realize your talent, technical aptitude, and customer focus. They have retained a Ford customer because of you. If you are ever in Minnesota LMK because dinner is on me!
Thank you, you are amazing! I’m a 73 year old Ford guy. I have owned 12 F150’s over the years and still have three of them. The 2018 3.5 will get the 21B10 update and be gone within a year. Thank you again!
I enjoyed your comments. I am of the old school and have done trouble shooting and fixes for several companies and like Allis Chalmers, John Deere, Heil garbage trucks and others always at the customer level. I own a 2017 F150 ecoboost with 140,000 miles at 70k they did the update and now it has come back. Now it's Ford F150 time and I have figured out the problem and the fix. My fix is done with having to pull the front cover! interested? Tom Silver
11:39 my ‘18 raptor has rattled since day one. Longer in the winter, ~ 3 seconds. At 60k miles in September it got noticeably louder, now at 116k miles it’s in the shop getting phasers. I found out that when one of the phasers go, The others will compensate by having a gasoline gallon challenge. The only problem I have with Ford saying that is, I was 120 miles out in the desert, 3 AM, 10° on the other side of Dugway proving grounds headed back to Utah Valley with 250 miles till empty. The truck limped and chugged gas like a pirate until it ran dry and I walked the remainder of the way to get service. This is one of those worst case scenario things, but the point I want to make is, I will bring an extra jacket and bibs next time. I love that damn truck and the freedom to explore with my wife and kids but more, I love living in a country that I know I’m safe to walk home through the desert in the middle of the night because the sacrifice of our service men and women who sacrifice to defend these liberties. 🇺🇸
2017 F150 Limited, 3.5L Eco Boost. 118,000 miles. Had VCTs replaced under warranty at about 85,000 (extended warranty I purchased with vehicle). Went in for an oil change and they updated the PCM. Up to this point, I had no rattles or indication of problems. About 10 days after the oil change, the thing started rattling worse than it ever has. It rattles at every start, hot or cold, after sitting a matter of a couple of minutes. Sometimes it actually has issues starting - extended cranking and actually shuddering prior to start. Once it starts, the rattle disappears within about 1 second and everything is back to normal, except for the shudder. Going in for an oil change and will have them revert the PCM. Other than this problem, I absolutely love the truck. Sadly, whatever happens from now on is out of my pocket. Many years ago, I pulled and rebuilt a 302 out of a 1970 Bronco. Not sure at this point in my life I am ready to try a VCT replacement on my own.
I just had my 2018 92,000 mile Ecoboost tuned up and I'm researching the solution to the start up rattling. My independent mechanic has saved me thousands the past 20 years and he admitted these problems are beyond him to fix. I've got a $1,600 bid to replace the slightly damaged parts caused by the rattle before they fail, but I see no reason just replacing parts will stop future damage from lack of oil flow on start up. I'll try the hold the pedal all the way down when starting, but without proper oil flow I expect continued damage to the engine. The oil pump accessory may be the best action I can take to get another 100,000 miles out of my truck. By the way, even though my battery is good and the alternator works fine the engine wouldn't start until I jumped it. Trying to explain this to a friend I suspect the computer is at fault to force me to take the truck to the dealership. I don't drive a truck anymore, I drive a computer with 4 wheels that can't be fixed with an analog solution.
Hey fellow Alabama boy, I was super impressed with videos you have made on this topic! By far the best, most informative, and genuine care for the consumer/customers that I have seen anywhere on the internet and I have logged countless hours researching this topic. I wish I would found your UA-cam channel sooner because you provided me with more information and knowledge in these three videos than I have gather in the past 7 months! Outstanding job!! That being said I would like your opinion on my issue. So I bought a ‘19 f150 3.5 ecoboost with 68,000 in December 2021, apparently already it already had the rattle and I was not informed of this before purchase. Long story but also done done they replaced the cam phasers at no cost to me. I got the truck back from the dealer around 1 March and I have almost reached the time for the first hole change after the cam phaser replacement decided I would check the oil make sure it wasn’t low at around 30% whole life and noticed it was a little low. So I move the engine guard on top and found oil pulled up in a couple of crevices on the driver side of the intake manifold. So my question is do you think that the reprogram that was done to try to solve the cam phasers before the replacement of the cam phasers that the higher oil pressure could have caused an External leak on the top of the intake manifold?
I tell you what I’m fixing right now while I wait for it to be fixed. Scheduled start and remote start. Never have to hear the rattle lol! Thanks for the info as I deal with this issue
Thank you for the great videos Mayson. Several other folks have put out other fine reports as well. Honestly, I am in the market for a fairly new towing SUV and love the looks of the Expedition. It would fit all of my needs except... My luck is I would have major issues. Have found a 2019 with 19,000 miles on it and I am scared to death to pull the trigger. I have also seen where some folks say you can only expect 150,000 miles on the 3.5 EB anyway. Would that be an accurate statement and from the outside looking in am I wrong to feel like staying away from this motor? Thank you and keep up the great work.
For others here: It can affect performance. It CAN hurt things. But you may not ever notice, depending on how and what you use your truck for. Grab your tuner and monitor timing advance when towing heavy and uphill. The phasers start to lose the ability to retard as quickly as it can. I found this out first hand - it got to the point where when towing in high heat, even with high octane, it couldn't retard quickly enough and was pinging very badly - almost uncontrollably. OAR adjustment was affected because of this, making 91 octane read more like 85 (by that I mean, if my OAR was normally -.50 in years past on 91, it was now reading +.85) Ford CLAIMS it won't hurt anything because they are banking on the fact that this engine knock will increase the OAR (octane adjust ratio) - which in turn will adjust the timing map and things will be fine. This could be true, however the phasers CAN get bad enough where even a maxed out OAR of 1 (as high as it goes) won't be enough - basically you're off the table on the timing map - and now when you're high boost, high load, bad things happen. But again if you're not working the truck hard, you might not ever notice! I think it's safe to say the average consumer doesn't look at things like timing advance and octane adjust ratios! If you want to know an early indicator.. if you are JUST getting some rattle and you happen to have an SCT tuner.. keep an eye on what your OAR is (don't do this in winter since winter blend fuel throws this all off anyway). If you're normally at say, -.35 on your 91 octane (or whatever) and you see it consistently going and staying in the positive, that's your sign. The number itself before/after doesn't matter. And OAR WILL jump around - that's normal - but if you see the average clearly start moving to the positive direction over time - more than it ever has in the past - that's a clue. Engine is compensating for increased knock due to the phaser's inability to adjust quickly enough between spikes in load, creating knock, thus increasing OAR readings. I had my phasers replaced 100% because of that (making sure to use the most recent/updated part numbers from ford). 30k later and still great with no returned rattling. 168k on the truck currently. 2014 F150 Lariat 4x4 4.11 rear-end for reference.
I have a 2016 Expedition with a 5 star tune and I monitor as well. I have a low temp tstat, and big IC. This vehicle is 80% a tow rig and it just started to make the noise on cold start after sitting for a while. Low miles around 45k. Have you found a relation between oil weight or brand in your experience or research? I am curious because this started after I switched brand. It seems that some folks have found better experience by using 5-40w or adding something like 1qt Lucas oil. I've also read about using Mobil 1 Delvac 5w-40. Are the phasers for the 1st gen 3.5 using a similar design to the new 2nd gen phaser? Anything else you want to update here would be greatly appreciated.
@@kevinblack8584 Regarding oil, while I read a lot online about using X-brand and X-weight, the reality is that, on my own truck anyway, it made it to about 130k miles on a hodgepodge of quick-lube oil changes and only relying on the oil-change-indicator (everything you're NOT supposed to do). This was all from the previous owner. When I had the phasers replaced back at ~137k miles, the engine looked clean! If someone said "this person used Amsoil the entire time" I would have believed it. There was clearly no sign of oil being the cause of any problem. Once I took the truck, I went full synthetic. Now granted, the previous owner never towed - freeway only miles. I'm sure that helped. But in general, I wouldn't focus or worry on brand, but rather focus on using full synthetics. These trucks cook (literally) the oil via the turbo's, especially when working hard. Oils that are good with high heat and fuel dilution are optimal. Dino oils 'burn' (I'm using that term very loosely) around 200-250 degrees. Synthetics meanwhile are often 400+. I know I just got done saying that the last owner used random oils and it looked clean inside, but again they weren't towing. The oil stayed 'cool.' If you're towing heavy or up steep grades, synthetic is what you want. (this is not me saying it will prevent the phaser issue though - I'm just talking general tips here). Regarding weight - I've only ever used 5/10w-30 but I wouldn't be opposed to 40 in high heat and towing situations. It's similar to marine applications - in that ambient temps and use-case should decide your weight. Manuals don't say that because the general public these days don't understand enough about engines, plus all the focus anymore is on maximizing MPG, so they try and keep it very simple, but that doesn't mean the rules do not apply. A high-heat condition tow situation will benefit from 40wt. Don't be fooled by online talk on 'tight clearances' in engines. Yes it's true modern engines have tight clearances, however a 40wt in high heat high stress will in fact thin to a 30wt (not to mention many 40wt oils test similarly, viscosity-wise, to 30wt). What I'm saying is, it's not a large enough jump to cause issues. Now that said, my truck has 173k miles and has only ever seen 30wt oil, but in the 100+ summers and while towing, the 40wt certainly wouldn't be a bad idea. In fact, I should probably do it.. I just haven't because the thought of changing it back to 30wt in the winter (assuming it wasn't due for an oil change already) is too much of a hassle lol. Will it affect the phaser situation though? No not likely. The phasers have a design issue that if present, can't be saved by oil. Is brand the reason for your recent issue? No, I wouldn't say it is. If the truck has a previous version of the phasers, then it's going to likely fail. If you look at a failed phaser, you can tell it wasn't due to a lubrication issue. The kit you want to use (for the newest phasers) is: BL3Z-6D256-C. I haven't seen many (if any) reports of failed phasers after this newest kit was used. You can search that kit number on forums and see that often the topic goes "cold" after users replace with those (presumably because the issue hasn't returned.) The 1st gen phasers are not the same as the 2nd gen. HOW are they different? I don't know. I just know that they ARE different because the part numbers are different. Also, oddly, the gen2's still see phaser issues, whereas the gen 1's (once using the newest part numbers) generally don't. So one would assume the gen2's aren't using the gen1's latest phasers. Lastly, as a temporary solution to the rattle, you can always prime them before starting. Put your gas pedal to the floor (with the engine off), hold it there, and then crank (with the pedal down). This is a diagnostic-mode that will allow the engine to crank without starting. Do that for 5-10 seconds, then release, and start as normal. By then the phasers will have been 'primed' and you shouldn't get rattle. That said, I would still get them replaced, because if they're making the rattle, it also likely means they're not advancing/retarding optimally either (which was the case with mine). Which might not be a big deal in everyday driving, but if you find yourself climbing a steep hill with a heavy load on a hot day, and the phasers aren't reacting quickly enough, you can see some BAD (like, worse than you've ever heard) pinging/detonation.. ask me how I know! :) What oil do I use? I run either Pennzoil Plat/Ultra or Rotella "Gas truck" full synthetic. Both these oils contain high-quality additive packages and are also designed for gas GDI engines (better handling of fuel dilution, soot from direct injection, etc). I do not run Mobil 1 in turbo applications, because I have found that it tests generally thinner (after being used) and sheers quicker than other oils. I haven't tested this in the case of my f150 but I've found it to be true in my other/previous turbo vehicles. Perhaps the newest formulations are better in that regard, but I wouldn't know. I'm sure it's fine - they're a major leading brand. I believe Mobil 1 has good cold-flow properties, but for me personally that isn't relevant as I live in a scorching-hot region.
Great videos, I have a 2012 3.5 Ecoboost, just turned 190,000 mikes on it. I've only encountered the cold start rattle once after parking my truck for a couple of weeks when I pulled my Turbos and installed new aftermarket Exhaust manifolds on it. Now if I park it for awhile, when I start my truck, I push the gas pedal to the floor for about 3 seconds this extens my cold cranking time and allows the oil to do pre lube , after 3 seconds I let off the gas boom it stars and no rattle. I am a former engineer from Ford Motor Company retired after 35 years, was a Senior Ford Tech, now a Honda Senior Master, still working and on some of our Ford truck trade ins I've encountered the cold start rattle on a few of these and revert back to my turn the key on, floor it count 123 and release the pedal, starts every time and no rattle. Seems to me if Ford would release a software update to extend the crank time this problem would be a non issue. One other side note I've only used Mobile 1 5W 30W since my truck was new. Never use the high mileage oil because it may swell the seals.
This was an awesome video! Thank you for taking the time to describe what has been going on. My dealer is absolutely clueless about how all of this is working. I had a a bad shudder (caused by 21b10 software) for many months before they finally performed 21n08. Truck drives great now. Two questions. 1) What kind of damage could I have done driving the truck with the shudder for many months? I had a torque converter replaced that I believe was due to this shudder but I wonder what other internal issue this was causing? 2) If they reverted the software back to original when they performed 21n08, is it only a matter of time before my cam phaser rattle returns?
Thank you!! If you haven’t ever had the phasers replaced it will most likely at some point start rattling. I wouldn’t worry about any damage caused by the shutter. All that’s happening is oil bleeding by the mega cap causing the cam to shudder.
Thanks for the updates and deep dive into these issues, you are the source for updates I give to my company regarding our fleet trucks. You have more information than my local dealer as well as Enterprise Fleet can give me on these issues! I help maintain our fleet vehicles for the company I work for. I have a 2019 F-150 XLT SC SWB 4WD Fleet Truck. I have been experiencing cold start rattle since around 35,000 miles. In April 2021 I had 21B10 done at 45,198 miles and I experienced the weird shutter, it was very much like transmission shutter at very low RPM. I let it go a couple of months and during my next service the dealer reverted my software back to original to get rid of the shutter. I am now at 67,075 miles and the rattle is now so bad it rattles pretty much all the time, it rattles very loudly on cold start and even after it is warmed up I can hear the rattle through the firewall when accelerating through a stop light. It is getting very annoying. My local dealer says they don't have the parts to fix it and for me to send it otherwise it will just sit in their back lot and I'll be forced into a near unusable rental. We have several fleet truck F-150s sitting at dealers across the country with the same issue and not only are we paying for the lease payments on these trucks for a few months now, we are also paying for rentals for the teammates affected by these issues. We have 180 fleet vehicles and 60 of them are F-150s with the 3.5L Ecoboost engine. We just replaced one engine last month and it cost us over $10,000, the dealer could not tell us why that engine failed. Enterprise Fleet ordered me a replacement fleet truck (2022 Silverado HD2500 LTZ Z71) which is produced, but who knows how long it will take to hop on rail to get to the Gulf Coast! I tell you what, I am not really that excited about getting a Chevy instead of my faithful Ford, but I can't get out of this rattling thing fast enough, yesterday wouldn't be quick enough! 😂
2019 F150 3.5 EB. Did not have a rattle at 30k, 40k, and 50k dealer checkups. At the 40k made appointment to flash the PCM (phaser recall notice) .... dealer told me they were not recommending re-flash unless a problem due to trucks coming back right after with other problems (shudder, poor shifting, etc.). The truck had 59600 mi when phaser rattling started. Called the dealer for an appointment to check, earliest was a month out and he told me not to worry as long as they saw it before 12/31/2022. Now another dealer and FMC tells me that is BS, needs new VCT and no warranty coverage available because over 60k. The only abnormality I am seeing after the startup rattle is a pulsing-like turbo surge at interstate cruise speed between 65-80mph.
my 2011 3.5 started rattling at about 70k, when I hadn't started my truck in a few days or after a cold night I started holding the gas to the floor to build oil pressure before allowing fuel flow, then one day after about 12000 miles the the motor stopped rattling at startup, it now has 96K on the odometer. BTW at least 45K of the motors life it has towed between 6 or 7k pounds of travel trailer. I have had my dealer change the oil every 5 thousand miles religiously
My 2015 f150 3.5 EcoBoost developed a rattle. instead of bringing it in I did some troubleshooting. Thankfully In my case it was failed clamps on the muffler heat shield. Easy fix!
Mason, a lot of folks are getting confused on the phaser rattle vs waste gate rattle. Is the waste gate rattle something to be severely concerned with or is that just normal for these ecoboost engines?? Thank you for all your content and advice!!!
Wastegate rattle is a normal characteristic of these trucks. Almost every one of them does it. The cam phaser rattle on the other hand is much much louder. Thanks!
Thank you very much awesome video. I just took my 2018 in to the Ford shop last night for the software update and it didn't work . My truck only has 49000 miles and this nose started about 2 weeks ago. looks like it will be in the shop for a few days .
I’m with you on the oil pressure problem, before I start in the morning I put the gas pedal to the floor and it will crank without starting for about 5 seconds turn key off let gas pedal up start truck and no rattle cause it got oil pressure to the phasers
I know on the gen 1s if you ignored the rattle, it was only a short matter of time before you jumped time and junk your motor. However I’m guessing Ford is not concerned with the gen2 because you have two separate timing sets , 1 set per bank. Which means your not gonna stretch two chains like you would with one very long chain. Just like a triton motor which has two sets, you could leave those rattle forever with no problems
first of all thank your for the information you put online. because for a guy like me that lives in Madagascar this is priceless infos. I bought my 2018 Raptor new from the ford dealer and as you can guess from my location, there ain't many F150 & raptor sold here. So basically, when there is an issue on my truck, i start digging on FB and YT for answers. Then i bring the truck to the dealer and point at the possible fix. I dont know if it is related but i'm bringing the truck for a P27B5 code tomorrow as a wrench appeared no the dash.They wanted to perform a TCM & PCM calibration/ update From JL3A-12B565-AEB to JL3A-12B565-AED .From JL3-12A650-CZC to JL3-12A650-CZG(TCM/PCM recalibration) . have you heard anything about it??? Truck also started to rattle today but i'm still under warranty so what's my best option: ask for a cam phaser replacement or go 21B10. thansk for your input and keep up the good work!!!
Thank you! Have the 21B10 done and phasers replaced if it’s rattling. I’m not real familiar with the code on your other issue. I’d have to do some digging to see what thats about. After 21B10 and phaser replacement if you have any shudder with it just simply take it back and have it reprogrammed back to original. Hope this helps!
This is the best video Ive seen on this subject. I did see another video about an option for start up that went like this. When you get ready to start the truck. Foot on the break and full press on the accelerator pedal and crank for a few seconds and release the gas pedal and it will start with no noise. Apparently the PCM for a flooding condition will also make oil pressure that will coat the engine before it starts. The Ford technician indicated that if Ford would allow the engine to crank, not start for 2 or 3 seconds longer the engine would be primed with oil and no noises would be heard as everything would be properly lubricated. Interesting for for sure what are your thoughts on that? thanks again 2019 F150 V6. Scott
That method works. The only reason I don’t encourage people to do that is because I believe a $60K truck should crank without making noise without having to do anything other than turn the key.
I'm close to 200,000kms with the rattle. Keeps rattling and keeps running with no issues as far as I can tell. I do have the shudder after the first programming and need to take it in for the new reprogramming. I also always do the oil prime tip thanks to Ford Boss just so it doesn't sound like a tractor in the morning.
I just had mine in a few weeks ago for regular service and they did the recall re-programming. I had no Phaser rattle before, but it has just developed the phaser rattle on cold start. I did notice a vibration at low rpm occasionally, but wondered if it was the transmission re-learning to shift. The trans has been seemingly shifting better since the re-program but maybe that is something different. I have just under 53k on my 2018 so I am taking it in ASAP.
I had phaser cold start rattle with a 2021 2.7 with only 1,400 miles. Dealer replaced all 4 cam phasers. Ford extended the mileage on my warranty but not the time. After trying to get an extra few years on the warranty with no luck ( Ford would not respond to emails or phone calls). I will probably trade this thing in just before the warranty period is up. FYI the dealer actually did a great job.
Great video! I like to see you really know your engines! With that said, if the issue is low oil pressure on start up, why haven't they come up with an anti-drainback system like the old 6.0 diesel's? Keeping oil in the caps might help, right? Anyway, keep up the good work!
@@ronshaffer6845 I ran the Lucas high mileage stabilizer in my 2013 ecoboost3.5 (96,500 smiles) and it ran great for about 3 months then the rattle came back, also developed a leak in one of the turbo coolant lines something else to watch out for with this engine especially higher mileage ones but I’ve yet to address that, Im about to just run 10W30 for the rest of the summer gonna try to experiment with the stabilizer with it and a heavier weight oil and see if that remedies anything hope this helps
Have you seen the newest Phasers? They have a metal pressed on cover over the springs, seen the first set like it today....... the spring isn't exposed anymore
My dad's 2013 just developed this rattle or I would call it like a knocking sound almost at low RPMs it goes away when you rev it up but as soon as you let off the gas it comes back but as the motor gets warmer it gets a little bit quieter but it's still there. And the crazy part is is it didn't do it and then all of a sudden when I change the oil in the engine right around 97,000 miles it developed that noise at startup and has never went away
Have a question, I rebuilt the timing set camphasers and all. Should I go have this update done on my 2012 f150 3.5 or should I just go for a new melling oil pump while I'm in here ? Please help
This update doesn’t apply to the older 3.5’s. Only the 17-20 models. As far as mulling oil pumps go I wouldn’t. Stock oil pump does just fine especially on the older models.
Thanks for posting such an in-depth look at what is going on here. I do find it funny (suspicious really) that if, as Ford proclaims, no damage that will occur from these conditions, why does Ford put such a tight response window to getting the inital FSA performed? I'll take it one step further, why even offer an extended warranty at all if , and to quote Ford........." A cam phaser that has developed an undesirable noise does not affect the vehicle safety, performance, or emissions." Hmmmm.......
I've had my cam phasers replaced 2 separate times from 2 different Ford dealers, thank God it was under warranty! Also Ford dealer had to rebuild the transmission too the last time I had the cam phasers done so I was without a truck for 6 weeks. My complaint on the trans was it was violently slamming into 3rd gear and was loosing power occasionally at lower speeds. The dealer removed the trans and found it had a seal that tore (and eventually gave out) when the truck was assembled from factory. I absolutely love the power this truck makes and it's capability, but man am I worried once the warranty expires in the future. Currently my 2018 f150 has only 44,000 miles.
Great series of videos! I would love to see you do an overview on that cab removal procedure. It looks like a nightmare but it must not be too bad if you do it on each cam job.
@@FlyingWrenches13 hello, I just had 21N03 performed on my 2018 F-150 1 day ago, still rattles on cold start. My question is does the cab have to be pulled at every dealer for this repair? I now notice my cab and bed are not aligned at the rear cab window, one side is higher, extremely frustrated!
Here is my experience. I have a 2017 3.5. I have 200,000 miles on it. The rattle started over a year ago and I took it into Ford and they replaced the phasers, can chain, gears and water pump. The rattle went away for 6 months, then came back. I took it to a different dealer and they found that the chain guides weren’t replaced the first time and they were cracked, so they replaced the guides, as well as the phasers, gears and chain again. The rattle went away for 6 weeks or so, then it came back. I took it back to the dealer and they tried the update, which didn’t work, still rattling. They don’t know what to do next, they suggested and oil change with OEM filter and oil hoping it will change the pressure, I doubt this will do anything. I plan on selling the truck in the next couple of months, but am concerned that I won’t get a fair price for it because of the rattle, I mean who would buy a truck that sounds like that at startup?? Unless it’s a diesel. Lol
Yeah that surely sounds like a bad situation. The next step in repairing the truck is probably going to be taking a oil pressure reading at the back of the heads to see if you have a oil supply problem. Most likely you do which can only be repaired by replacing head or engine depending on which is causing the low oil pressure.
You are very smart and talented. This is the first video I've seen by you, and I'm impressed. You should have your own Motortrend channel. Question: I'm not quite sure how the shudder issue is caused by increased oil pressure. Is it dangerous to the powertrain to keep driving it with the shudder? How did they actually increase oil pressure with a PCM update, since the OPG is what drives the pressure in the pump?
First off, thank you! To answer your questions: The shutter is caused by too much oil pressure into the heads. The mega caps are leaking that extra oil pressure by and causing the camshaft to have a shutter that is noticed at idle. According to ford, the shutter not the rattle will hurt anything. They are able to change the oil pressure with a program because the oil pump on the 17+ 3.5’s has a pressure solenoid that can be commanded up or down by the pcm to increase or decrease the oil pressure. Hope this answers everything!
@@FlyingWrenches13 Thank you very much. So to confirm, in case there was a typo, the shudder does hurt it, and should not continue driving on it? My dealer is unfortunately nowhere near as educated as you are, and they've been rather indifferent about how to handle it. I got the update on my 18 Expedition and immediately on the way home the whole truck shook hard at low RPM. I called them and they said to just drive it as is until they can get me back in. It's already been a few weeks. I don't want it to damage the motor of course, so it's a bit frustrating for sure. It sounds like on the Expedition, they are directed to only replace the cam phasers, but I'm curious why they wouldn't be replacing the mega caps as well since they would already have the cover off. I haven't seen them, so maybe they are more than a block plate design where the VCT goes in. If the cam actually sits in it, I could see how that's an issue since they are line bore/honed, and you can't just put another on, and would require a new head, right? I believe you mentioned that in the video, with it needing a new head because of the mega cap.
@@raredesign yeah the fix would be to replace head and mega cap for the shutter but instead they are just reverting the programming back to stock to fix it. Way more cost effective. I meant to say shutter nor rattle in that first comment. Sorry!
@@FlyingWrenches13 I’m curious if this rather odd procedure Ford has drafted, involving the flash, and removal of the flash, by specific deadlines, is their attempt to get ahead of a class action law suit. If customers did not meet the deadlines, perhaps it gives them an automatic release of liability in the event of a suit, and they would only need to repair the motors of those that satisfied all prior requirements.
I've never had the cam phaser rattle, but the letter from Ford makes it sound like you better get 21B10 done before February. Took my 2018 F150 with about 40K on it to Opelika Ford yesterday with the CSP letter. After about 2 hours the Service Advisor told me the truck was ready and handed me the paperwork. When I looked at the paperwork this morning there are two work items: Item 'A' says "Customer states 21B10 Powertrain Control Module Reprogram for Cam Phaser Rattle." and "Reprogram the PCM to the latest level per recall. 21B10D 0.3 Hours". Item 'B' says "Customer states 21N08 PCM Reprogram Due to Engine Shudder." and "Test derive to verify engine shudder and reprogram PCM to last revision per recall. 21N08B 1.2 Hour." Now I'm wondering if they actually did anything. And, if they really did what they said, the PCM is back to what it was, and the truck won't have the increased oil flow that 21B10 is supposed to provide. I suppose it's possible they did 21B10 then had the shudder when they test drove, but the letter states that only happens in "rare instances" and I don't believe it would happen that fast. It's about a 45-minute drive from where I live to Opelika so altogether I feel like I wasted 3 1/2 hours.
Yeah I’m not sure what’s going on. The 21b10 recall doesn’t even have us drive them afterwards to check for the shudder because apparently it’s “in rare instances”. Not sure why they would have done that other than trying to bleed ford for some more money in labor.
In our experience at the dealership, i don’t think the programming is actually a fix once a rattle has already occurred, especially if it’s loud. But I think it’s more of a prevention to keep it from occurring in the first place. As for long term damage, we’ve seen several that were out of warranty where the customer decided not to have the phasers replaced. The rattle sounds terrible. But none of them have actually had any further problems. So I think Ford is telling the truth.Also, we’ve only had one that developed a shudder. But the rattle wasn’t cured anyway. So we simply replaced the phasers. Can’t remember if we reversed the programming afterwards after replacement though.
@@bigpicturethinking5620 I believe our dealership charges closer to 2-3 k. But yes, they do for one or more of the following reasons 1. It sounds so bad that they don’t believe it’s harmless. 2. The service writers don’t tell them it’s harmless. 3. They’re simply embarrassed by the noise and are willing to pay to get rid of it. But others simply deal with it.
Ahh, that explains my service experience with my 2018 Expedition. At 38K miles, I had the cold start rattling phasers replaced under warranty in 2021. 3K miles LATER, I answered the 21B10 recall for the reprogramming (no rattle at that time). Now much to my dismay at 65K miles, the phaser rattle is back, and I was told that I had an extended warranty of which I was unaware that will cover another phaser replacement. I guess that is being done under 21N03.The service advisor also told me the part number for the new. replacement phasers is different than the part number for those that were installed in 2021, so perhaps there is some design improvement? I never had the shudder after 21B10 so I have not had that reversed (so far as I know).
Just brought my 2019 F150 in for the cam phasers. Not even 20,000 miles on it yet. Between this, the dash and the tranny I've had it with Ford! In the shop more than driving, bought it at the end of Dec. 2019.
My 3.5 had the rattle and it failed on me Sunday night. Low oil pressure and I shut it off immediately and coasted to the side of the road. When refiring after checking oil level it sounds like metal on metal inside the engine. Gonna tear it down this coming weekend and I'll make sure to check out those caps!
You answered my question about the 3.5L EB. Now I'm glad that I decided to stick with the 2.7L EB when I ordered a 2021 Lariat. BTW, it should be here just before Christmas.
NEW to This Channel as of 10/06/2022, I'am subscribed to FTM, Ford Boss Me, and South Main Auto. I am the owner of a BRAND NEW 2022 F-150 LARIAT V 6 Turbo "BUILD DATE 03/2022". I've been following this CAM PHASER Stuff for YEARS NOW!!! I have a NOISE on START UP that to me "Sounds Like" the PHASER ISSUE????? I have Gathered that the 2022 Built F-150's have these "NEW STYLE PHASER"S"????? I've had the Truck to a Dealer here in California, and OF COURSE they Can't Duplicate "ANYTHING"???? Unbelievable. I'am at the Point of Just LIVING with the NOISE'S, Ya there are a Couple. I can NOT Isolate the Issue because I don't have the Place or Anyone around to HELP Me figure this Out. I know I could figure out (1) Of the Noises, But the Phaser thing???? Not Sure, Mine Rattles at COLD Start up Really Nicely, and This Dealer Claims to NOT BE ABLE TO HEAR IT??? BRAND NEW $87,000.00 TRUCK, and I am Being BLOWN OFF BY THE DEALER?????
Awesome info thanks man! Is that Ford recall official background music in the video? Intense. haha Its a shame in '18 they had to ruin the 5.0L with an engine redesign.
Own a 2018 f150 3.5 ecoboost.. had update and phasers done 95000km at local Ford, all under warranty... now approximately 40,000 km since then the rattle came back outta nowhere, booked first appointment I could with Ford, 7 days from now.. truck is losing power like crazy and the rattle is almost all the time, had a warning of low oil pressure for a moment, shut the truck down immediately, I'm now driving like a sloth lol so worried I blow up my truck.. why does this problem sound like it is very common. This better not cost me money when it was supposed to be fixed while it was still under warranty... this video is very informative but it's scaring the shit outta me
Solid video! I may have missed this part but did you say once Ford has more availability on the 3.5L Ecoboost heads that they would allow for head and cam replacement even after the cam phasers were replaced? Just had the cam phasers replaced on my 2017 Max Tow 3.5L Ecoboost.
No sir! That would cost way too much haha. They are just reverting the programming back to original to fix the shutter issues on the ones that have it after having 21B10 performed.
I believe damage was already done before the recall to try and fix cold start issue , less than a year engine needed repair of 3500 to 5 grand. Engine had around 115,000 miles when this was done at dealership, called about it and they said they don’t know of any recall on this issue
I'm taking my 2018 in tomorrow. I've got 2 week left of warranty and I'm hoping they will fix this rattle They rebuilt the transmission a few months ago
Just found you channel. i been wanting a f150 eco to tune and have fun with. test drove 10 this week. wanted a 10 speed 2017 and up. everyone i drove was rattling on start up. so i didnt buy. One dealer went off on me when i said something about it said it normal dont woory about it.. All the 2015 and 2016 i drove sounded great but i was really wanting the 10 speed. now im thinking just buy a 15 0r 16 to hotrod and play with condidering theres not afix.
Several commentators have pointed out that the oil pressure can be built up prior to ignition by holding the gas pedal to the floor while turning the key. I do this while watching my oil pressure gauge and don't take my foot off the gas until it changes from "Low" to "OK". This can take anywhere from two to ten seconds depending on the outside temperature and how long the vehicle sits between starts. This method seems to be doing the same thing the software upgrade was intended to do and has eliminated the problem on my 2015 Expedition with 153,000 miles. My question is whether there is a potential to harm something else?
It has been nearly a year and 12,000 miles since I started using the flood start method and I only get a slight rattle, even when the temperature is in the 20's. I think a lot of my problem stems from the previous owner not changing the oil and/or using the wrong oil and filter. I had the Ford dealership change the oil using Motocraft synthetic oil before I took delivery. This may not have anything to do with the phasers, but they failed to empty the aftermarket oil catch can which separates oil from the unburned gas before it is recycled in the intack manifold. Mine was full beyond the baffle so it was recyclying the crud and was doing more harm than good. I changed the oil again at 5,000 miles but this time I used a full synthetic oil (I can't remember the brand) and made sure to empty and clean the catch can. My phaser ratter was still their but was improving. I changed it again after another 5,000 miles but this time I used Mobil 1 High Mileage full synthetic oil with an OEM Motocraft filter. I chose Mobil 1 because my next door neighbor works for a company that supplies the chemicals that the various oil brands use. He said thay many brands substitute formula components because of cost and supply chain issues but that Mobil insists upon an exact match to keep their product consistent. I also watched the Project Farm comparison of high mileage oils and Mobil 1 high milage came out on top. I chose the OEM Motocraft filter because it seems to have a better design for ensuring that oil can quickly flow through the filter. However, it does not have as much filtration material as more expensive brand and will not last as long. I am 2,500 miles into this oil change and only use the flood start when the temperature drops below freezing. I get a slight rattle when the temperature is in the 20's without the flood start. But there is no rattle when I use the flood start. Also, I'm not concerned about harming the starter because it only takes a few seconds for the oil pressure gauge to read OK. The bottom line for me is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Thank you very much for the informative video. I just picked up my 19 Lincoln Navigator for this recall and the cam phasers were replaced. However, it didn’t seem to fix the rattling noise. When I started the car this morning the rattling sound was more longer but not as loud as compared to before it was replaced. What do you advice? Thanks again for all you do.
Thank you for the awesome video and information. I am going to be doing this procedure at home, out of pocket. I don't suppose you would be kind enough to list the part numbers for all of the items you recommend replacing while into this job? I ask because due to the shortage of parts, I'll need to source numerous parts houses in an attempt to find them all. Thank you very much and thanks again for the great videos. I'm not from the south, but ain't afraid to use the ain't word anytime!!!
FYI - there is a new phaser design out now. I’m on my 4th phaser job in a week and I put the new design on the first 2 engines, the old (original) style on the one I finished today and I’ve got the new style for the one I started today. New phaser part number begins with “MLxx” vs old phaser style starts with “DLxx” or GLxx” or some such. I can’t remember, but “MLxx” is definitely the new ones.
@@FlyingWrenches13 You took the whole week off??? Woody Anderson Ford would't have paid ya for T-Giving holiday pay LOL because ya didn't work the day before or after....I never got it when I worked there because I have a life and always took the Friday off ;
Hi I've viewed both of your videos regarding this cam phasers rattle and I had the recalibration done early this year when I was presented with the field service action, I still have the cold start rattle. My question is with the Ford Service Tech from Texas addressing the cam shaft mega cap leaking? Wouldn't you have noticed the leakage with the teardowns of the 3.5L you've worked on? And for ford to say that no other problems will occur if repairs arent done except a noise.....if the phasers arent properly lubricated metal on metal wear will occur and lead to a bigger problem, right. So I trust your opinion that's why I'm asking if you have noticed any leakage from the cam shaftmega caps. Thanks for being that trusted Ford Tech that we can all turn to!
Thanks for sharing your experience with us and all the details of what Ford is doing. I enjoyed hearing your inside perspective on this issue. I wonder how many 2017+ 3.5L EcoBoost engines will end up needing the redesigned heads due to this problem. With the oldest of those engines only being 5 years old now it could be a while before we see a large percentages of them reaching higher mileage. Curious how they will hold up. I used to own a 2018 and loved the power of the engine. I can’t speak for longevity because I didn’t clock that many miles. Currently looking at Raptors, but I’m a little hesitant with this ongoing VCT phaser issue. Great videos. 👍
I’m getting my phasers replaced on the 15th so we’ll see what happens. I’ve cold the cold start rattle. And if the truck sits for the day after getting to work. When I pull out on to the road and go from 3rd to 4th it’s like the truck stops letting the engine engage. Once I told my foot off the accelerate and try to go again then it’s fine the rest of the drive. I have a 17 with 54k and the 10 speed
So I just pulled my first one apart. Thanks for the video on yanking the body by the way. There was black RTV on the timing cover. That's not factory is it?
Coming from personal experience who's on his 2ND CAM PHASER issue. 3.5L H.O btw... I did have it not start one time and timed out with that 10 second starting timer ford has. I feel like a secondary electric oil pump to spray oil up there when accessory power is activated, this problem will probably go away.
I get a cold start ring on my 2018 Ford 3.5 eco-boost… I change my oil every 5000 miles. And have also an extended warranty. It had scares me to think something negative is happening.
So I work at a all around automotive shop not just ford specific, the other day I had a 19 expedition come in with lack of power complaint and check engine light. The vehicle has 54k miles on it and it has the rattle. The codes stored in the engine computer are P0018 and P0021 so my thought is that maybe it will cause issue further down the road or sooner if the rattle or oiling issue is not fixed by ford.
This dude is probably staying late working on these videos off hours and putting together some of the most earnest sounding and informative content I’ve ever seen on YT to help people go into a potentially predatory environment more informed. Criminally under subbed if you ask me. Awesome job.
Thank you!!!
Motoloco is good too
Very good to see a younger guy working hard to master his craft. Well done video, clear and concise. Made my morning.
Thank you!!
@@FlyingWrenches13 New to me 2019 3.5. 67k, found cam phasers were done at 34k under warranty, they used the HL3Z phasers😞. Should I be flood starting it when cold to prevent these from going out? Love your videos!
Hey Mayson, thanks for more info on this. I’m one of the “lucky” ones I guess. Had 21B10 done about 3 weeks ago and about 2 days later was cruising through my neighborhood and felt the shudder. It’s pretty bad, very easy to feel and for a gearhead like me it was alarming. I was in 5th gear as I recall only taching about 1100 rpm with very slight throttle input. There’s a sweet spot for it. If you add throttle or back off it stops. Now what I do is drop into “M” manual mode and hold it in 4th to keep the revs up around 1400. No issue. I’ll go back and have them reverse it. The worst part is the rattle hasn’t changed at all. If it sits for more than 15-20 min you can bank on a rattle at startup. The longer it sits the louder and longer it is. After 3-4 days it’s a full 2 second count. That’s a long time to hear the racket! Thanks again man. Appreciate you sharing the knowledge.
Thank you! It sounds to me that you need to have your phasers replaced when you take it back for reverting. That should solve your rattle issues.
THANK YOU for the videos and the time you spent doing them. Was at our local dealership today to pick up my 2019 F150 Fx4 with the 5.0 / 10sp and asked him to check for any recalls I may have. He said there were none....funny thing. That cold start noise happens every year on my truck always in the winter....huh, and no recalls...nothing.
I went on to ask about by 2019 Expedition MAX with the 3.5 EB / 10sp again with the cold start rattling noise. He says the 1st software update had not been done and I am now out of warranty to fix the rattling sound and repairs will cost around $4k and some change. I'm at 65k miles and we bought the vehicle as a certified pre-owned from a Ford dealership. No one ever mentioned anything about the recalls, never received any letters....nothing. Instead, I get TONS of phone calls, texts and emails to trade for more new units. So I am quite certain Ford knows exactly how to contact me.
I have bought 8 new Ford trucks and SUV's since 2003 for personal plus 3 F450 and up. What would you say is my best route to take? I love my Fords but this might be a deal breaker going forward.
Got my 2018 F-150 as a demo from a dealer with 2200 miles. At about 35,000 I heard the rattle for the first time after remote starting. It had been sitting for 4 days at the airport. Being a former mechanic, when you hear a sound like that you picture metal shavings in the oil. I drove it home and drained it - clean. No debris, no metal. It was a few weeks before I heard it again. Now at 58,000 it hammers on about 90% of starts, cold or not. If it sits for more than 30 minutes odds are it will rattle. When it’s cold, 2-3 seconds - trust me that’s a long time for this sound as a mechanic. When warmer maybe 1 sec. Had the 21b10 done last week. Zero change. I would love to know where you are and have you work on my truck. You care about what you do and have the passion for this work like I did. Great job.
Thank you! I’m located in atmore AL. My email is mdunsford90@gmail.com if you want to reach out.
@@FlyingWrenches13 dude I'm not far from you in cantonment FL. Are you at the dealership in atmore? Next time I have an issue I'll have to drop it off with y'all.
@@MrTaylorfenoglio yes sir I’m in atmore! Shoot me an email if you need some work done. Mdunsford90@gmail.com
I bought a 2012 ecoboost brand new still have it I have about 120k miles on it. It has been rattling on cold start for a few years now. It has not hurt it. Still runs great.
Just wanted to drop a quick comment and say thank you for your video.. I am an ASE tech but I do not work at a dealership.. customer brought me his 2018 F-150 with this nasty noise and was telling me about the update they had done.. I do not have the luxury of getting info from Ford in fact when I call and ask a dealer about such things I get the old.. "you just need to let us do the repair" speach..I have identifix which is very helpful with such recalls and info on them but sometimes I understand a little better having it told to me instead of reading it..lol. thanks for the video and help on this problem and I will keep up with your videos as we continue to repair the engineers bright ideas on paper.... that just didn't work in reality.. 😳 did I say that out loud ? lol.. thanks again
I am just a customer with this problem and have no knowledge about cam phasers but this gentleman is excellent about this matter. Thanks much.
Hope you have more knowledge after the vidja!
Have been dealing with every bit of this with my 2018 3.5 and just had the 21N03 completed. The dealership here in Oregon has been trying to do right by me from the get go and get this fixed which I have appreciated. This issue certainly isn’t because their technicians aren’t doing a good job or capable. They are at the mercy of the original build. This vid (and the others on it) add a ton of helpful context for me as to what the heck is going on, so thank you for posting them. It’s actually more frustrating and discomforting NOT to know. Makes one nervous. Hopefully Ford isn’t wagging their finger at you for sharing. I actually much prefer this kind of honesty and transparency. Yeah, they “don’t make them like they used to,” but nobody does so enough of that BS romance. And, yes, my Ford loyalty is being tested by all of this (and a door that wouldn’t latch when it got below freezing outside…also fixed by dealer, btw, and a few other minor things), but there’s a ton of things I DO love about the truck and hope Ford continues to just be brutally honest with themselves and acknowledge (and fix) things when they aren’t working right. That builds trust. These purchases are big financial commitments and you just want to know that the builders and dealers of these recognize that and stand by them. Hope mine is good to go now but we’ll see. If I have another problem, at least I know what YT’er I’ll turn to and see what might be going on!
You are exactly right! Ford needs to read that comment because 99% of customers feel just like you.
Great info 👍
Bought my 2011 in 14' with 59000 miles. now have over 250000 M. Always used 10W30 synthetic oil over the 5W30 ford recommends with no issues. Oil life reset to 70%.
Sometimes get a little cold start rattle after sitting a long time. All I do to prevent the rattle is hold accelerator to floor for 2 seconds when cranking to allow oil to reach top end and release pedal allowing engine to start. It won't start with pedal to floor.
Thanks! Holding accelerator to the floor does work. Only issue I have with that is explaining to customers that in their 60k dollar truck they have to hold the gas pedal to the floor and crank there engine for a few seconds every time it’s cold to prevent the rattle.
@@FlyingWrenches13 Why can't ford do an ECM update that just lets the truck crank for 2 seconds before it fires the ignition so the phasers get oil pressure first?
@@FlyingWrenches13 Doesn't work for me, even did it twice (all the battery would allow) before letting it start. 2013 with 115k, had 89k when it started
Bought my 2011 f150 3.5 in 2018 with 127k miles. It now has 164k miles and I haven’t heard the start up rattle yet. I change the oil every 3-5k with full synthetic MobilOne and Motorcraft filter. I’ve had the 6R80 tranny issues fixed on an extended warranty I purchased with the vehicle. Should I stay with it or should I go? Wrestling with that question.
@@johnsteele8382i just bought a 2009 expedition 268k..runs great... quiet motor..sad this eco.boost motor they came up with.. gluck
Great detailed explanation on this issue. I have a 17 xlt 3.5 and experienced the vct rattle aat 60500 miles just out of warranty. The dealership did give me a break on the job and while they were replacing the vct I had them do new timing chains plugs belt tensioner since they were already in there. After I got it back at around 98k it started rattling again I took it back and they took it back apart and told me that a bolt that held the belt tensioner on the head was stripped out and that was causing the rattle and they had to replace the drivers side head instead of just doing a heelicoil. So I have a new oem head on drivers side and passenger side original. Morning after rattle open start up I brought back and they had it over night only to tell me that everything checks out and they said nothing is wrong but obviously there is. The stripped out bolt was their fault when they cross threaded the bolt when they did the vct replacement at 60k so where do I go from here? I've watched a video fordboss put out on this and he seems to think it has to do with oil pressure and had a suggestion to try to prove his point. That being hold your foot on the brake and put the gas to the floor turn key to on and crank the motor for 5 seconds to get the oil pressure up then start the engine which I did and the rattle was gone at start up so his suggestion proves its an oil pressure issue. Ford also did the pcm upgrade with no success. Any info would help me. My truck has 107k on it and it runs very strong still. Thanks
I think your 100% right about oil flow being the cause. My 2014 F150 eco 3.5 L started rattling around 85000 miles. I notice when I change the oil it quiets down for awhile than comes back as the oil breaks down . I also find it helpful and less rattling at startup when I turn the key on but don't start the engine until the oil pressure gauge has come up and the bell chimes finish. This seems to quiet the rattle and sometimes prevent it. This is why I believe it's a oil flow issue as well. Great video, look forward to many more.
mann i have a 2015 3.5 tt bought used eith 18k miles now at 90k miles ive been using the wthod of turning the key and not starting it until i stop hesring the chime and i se the gauge go up a bit no rattles here i change my oil every 4k miles and ocasianally drive like a bat out of hell hope to get another 75k miles out of it before trade in
I had 21B10 performed on my 2019 and the truck drove terrible and sluggish after. I never had the cold start rattle, and the truck ran great. I just did not want to worry about the rattle after my warranty expired because I plan on keeping the truck for a while. After the update the transmission would shift much sooner and bring the rpms down lower while accelerating. It didn't necessarily have a "shutter", but it made the truck not as much fun to drive, and felt like it was getting bogged down. I waited a few months to let the truck re-learn itself after the new update but it never got any better. I brought it back to the dealer to have 21N08 performed and explained my situation. After 21N08, it is back to being the truck it was before and I am much happier with it. I never saw any other changes with it other than the drivability. Thanks for all the great info!
Thank you for the input! Glad to hear you got it running better.
Good to know. Having the -08 done next week!
Where was your shutter at? Mine seems to have a slight shutter right off of idle as i begin accelerating. Happens for like 1 second when I initially apply throttle and then its gone but its very subtle. I can't tell if its the engine or the Toyo AT3s
Had cam phasers replaced at 30,000. Then had the 21b10 update done. Had really bad shuttering, Bogging down, gears staying in 9th-10th on slight inclines or even slower speeds of 25 to 30mph. Took back to ford 3 days latter, they replaced cam phasers again. Trucks does run better, but still has some of same conditions of the 21b10 update. Just doesn't seem to be same as it used to be. Don't know if they reprogrammed back the 21n08. Dealer service writers says trucks got the latest update in it. Cant seem to get an answer on which updates in truck after phaser replacement. When you say reprogrammed back to 21n08, are you meaning like in a utube video I saw them on a laptop going through items with the 21b10 update. They came to a page that said, does truck exhibit shutter or no shutter. If tech says yes truck has shutter, will that put truck back to 21n08, or will they have to put it in differently or something else. great video, you did good!
2014 ecoboost with 172000 miles, had a rattle with every startup when bought @ 90000 miles, have changed the oil to full synthetic instead of Dino/blends (previously done by 1st owner) and since then the rattle frequency has dropped drastically to literally once in a while. Definitely tolerable. Good to know nothing will happen if it doesn't get fixed since that is the route I'm taking. Thanks for the video and info, great job.
I had the same start up rattle. One way to solve it is hold the gas pedal all the way down while cranking the engine for about3 seconds to build pressure, then release it. But, a better way is to use Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer with full synthetic oil and the startup rattle when away. I will do this with every oil change from now on.
Thank you!
Mason,
Consider 5.4L 3 Valve. The issues were with the phasers. They did have mechanical issues that caused them to "rattle", until oil pressure was achieved, (until they beat themselves to death). These 3.5L Eco-Pukes phasers should be able to "lock" at base cam timing, thus not allowing them to rattle or knock at cold start.
I made a post on your other video, regarding the 2018 F-150 I just finished and how the cams were rotating in the center portion of the phasers. As though they are not "locking". This was causing a vale train "snap" as the cams would be rolled over.
Ford needs to address the "mechanical" portion of these phasers.
All the best,
Patrick
Great info! Thanks!
Great… just bought a 2020 used raptor that did not have this update.
Definitely subscribed so I don’t miss out on any more information. It’s a shame $60,000 plus trucks have so many problems.
I just traded in a 2006 Toyota Tacoma that I bought brand new. In 16 years it never broke down on me once, at 160,000 miles still had the original exhaust, and the biggest thing I ever had to do it it was replace a belt other than normal maintenance. I’m starting to regret my purchase of the Ford raptor with all of these recalls and issues.
I have a '13 F150 3.5 eco and it started making the cold rattle noise about a year ago. I just keep changing the oil using top quality synthetic oil frequently hoping that ignoring the noise won't cause permanent damage. Appreciate the info in this video!
I have a 2017 3.5 eco boost. I had my phasers redone in August of 2020 78k. I also had the 21B10 done earlier this year. Within the past week I’ve noticed the rattle has started again. Im going to go to the Ford dealer tomorrow to see what can be done but I’m approaching 99k shortly and my warranty will be out at 100k. I seriously wish Ford would find a better fix by now since this is their go to motor in most of their vehicles. I also read on the forums about people with the rattle allowing their vehicle to crank in order to build oil pressure and it seems like it works for most. Which seems to back up your leak down theory. It does take time in between starts to drop the pressure until it gets so worn that it does it upon every crank.
I’m really not looking forward to having that horrible rattle back.
Great video and thanks for the information.
Before I say this I want to say I worked for Ford in heavy line for 7 years. I had a raptor in early in 2018 back when this issue really started to come around. I put phasers in it, no metal contamination in the filter and it came back in 3 months. I did the original reprogram and phasers on its first repair attempt. When it came back tech hotline advised to check oil pressure at the oil sending unit (got like 35ish psi hot idle, 50ish psi 2k rpm hot). I then checked pressure on the oil pressure port in the back of the passenger side head and got 11 psi. I put a heads on it and rechecked pressure and got 13 psi at the back of the head. It came back a third time and our FSE advised to replace the long block and I never saw the truck again. Ford engines drop so much damn pressure by the time it reaches the phasers even if the oil control solenoid is 100% open I doubt it’s going to fully fix the issue. That was one truck. Between mid 17-mid 21 (when I left the company) I’d probably done hundreds if not thousands of phasers on gen 2 3.5L. My dads personal 17 f150 is going in on its 3rd set in 2 weeks. GOOD LUCK to the owners of these trucks. IF YOUR A CONSUMER READING THIS AND ARE STILL UNDER FACTORY POWERTRAIN 5/60k CONTACT YOUR SALES DEPARTMENT TO PURCHASE ESP COVERAGE!
I've had ESP coverage from the start. Doesn't help - the dealers just push you down the road and won't actually utilize it. It's like pulling teeth trying to get them to look further into my cam phaser issue.
if you don't end up using your ESP coverage by the time it expires you can ask the finance department at the purchasing dealer to cancel it. the only catch is that the vehicle has to be paid off but you can get that money back in the end.
Thank you for your videos. I have a similar issue with my 2021 Ford Edge ST. It is currently in the shop (about 3 weeks now) while they wait for parts. I shared the STB 23-2049 with the service folks who were able to confirm this as the issue. Car currently has 35,006 miles. Thank you again.
First - sub'd for being intelligent, articulate, and thorough.
Next... the first problem with this frustrating issue is the service advisors when you walk into a dealership. Almost 100% of them have been extremely unhelpful and dismissive of this issue. The ones that took it seriously only did so initially. Once they realized the issue in my truck has persisted beyond their first attempts they give up and suddenly become dismissive. I have a 2017 raptor with nearing 80k miles. I have the Ford ESP plan at maximum coverage with $0 deductible. It's ridiculous that a vehicle with "Ford Performance" branded on my flooring as you step into it has this noise upon virtually every startup when my truck has sat for more than 15 minutes. A very expensive performance vehicle that sounds like a jalopy at each start.
Usually once I get talking with an actual tech instead of a service advisor they come to the same conclusion here as Mason. That being said, I still don't want my very expensive truck to sound like this and I think it's unacceptable to be sent on my way with the expectation that I just accept it as it is. On top of that one or more of my belts are routinely squealing and though I've pointed it out and it's obviously heard when I'm turning my vehicle in for service, lo & behold when I pick it up on a later date afterwards it's got the same squeal but my paperwork says, "could not find or observe squeal described by customer." It's total horseshit and makes me wonder why I ever even bought from Ford to begin with. The last dealership I was at with this problem told me they don't HAVE to service my vehicle just because I have the ESP - that it's a choice for them to take on the service. This came about in conversation after I asked where do I go next since this issue is still present and I find it completely unacceptable. They became abrasive and suddenly began explaining to me that they are not required to take on a service with Ford ESP.
Any advice for navigating dismissive bullshitting service advisors and getting results would be appreciated.
My 2017 f150 3.5l ecoboost also has the belt squeal at startup when cold until I start driving it never drove in to that issue yet as I've only had the truck for about 6 months but I'm going to try using some belt dressing spray and see if that works as for the dealerships I don't think the problem is isolated to ford I've heard of horror stories about all makes, unfortunately they seem to just want there money from the initial sale not even considering how far word of mouth goes 🤷🏻♂️
First I want to say thanks for the compliments! It sounds like you have just found a dealer who doesn’t care about customer satisfaction. While it is true they don’t have to accept esp work, no dealer ever turns away business or at least none I’ve worked at. As bad as it is to say I would find somewhere else to take my vehicle and I would be calling FMC to complain.
@@FlyingWrenches13 I'm on my 3rd dealer already from them not wanting to try to get to the bottom of the issue. What really sucks is appointments are 2-4 weeks out, and when I get the truck there for me appointment they appear to have only made the appointment to acknowledge there's an issue and make me set up a NEW 2nd appointment to rectify the issue. Then when I get the vehicle back... same problem exists. When I push for something more to be done that's when I get the run around. I had to fight to get exterior amber and red led lights replaced, even though I paid extra to have exterior light protection with the ESP. When I say fight, I mean they told me "Ford" denied the claim. After asking what the hell I paid for then, they finally miraculously replaced them. 3 dealers? I'm not a jerk to these employees either. It just appears as though they could care less about warranty/ESP work.
@@RichardTurlington I have the same problem. I have offered to pay cash for the entire repair....they turned me 👇
Thanks for the info my 18 Limited Expedition Max just started. Took to dealer as they say no codes thrown. I told them I already diagnosed it. They sent me home. It has gotten substantially louder in the morning and it sounds like a diesel at idle….going back in tomorrow to show dealer the videos I took off the start in the last couple of days.
Great video. I have the rattle, though mild lasting a few seconds. However, To the point of it being a oil pressure issue, my truck sat for two weeks while I was on a trip. When I started after I got back it rattle like crazy for a good 10 seconds till the oil pressure built up.
I’m a Ram guy. Regardless I do love listening to your experience. Well explained with detail. I love doing mechanical work to some degree but I have a lot of respect for techs. Honest ones anyway. Cheers.
Thank you! Comments like this keep me motivated to make more videos.
Greetings and thanks from Canada!! Appreciate you young buck!! Great video and super informative, well presented. I just got the Phaser rattle on my 2019 Raptor and have it scheduled for new phasers for next month. Wish me luck!!
Hi Mason. Great and very informative video. I know that you are probably bombarded with questions from other people and it and its impossible to respond to everyone but I'm going to give it a try in hopes that maybe you can advise me. Here is my issue. I recently purchased a 2019 F150 3.5L ecoboost. The truck went through PCM reprogram and had new phasers installed below 70K miles. The rattle came back shortly once the warranty expired. Since the bulletin said this was not detrimental to the engine we drove the truck with the rattle at startup. The rattle was progressively getting worse. Now at 104K miles the engine also developed a knocking sound along with the rattle and we stopped driving it. Doing some research I found that Ford has made an updated version of the phaser sprocket that starts with a letter M instead of H. Everyone on the forums says that the new style phasers should have been used during the recall. I went through my old paperwork and the replacement phasers for my truck were the old style ones (H). Why would they replace defective part for another part of the same kind? Should I expect/demand Ford to fix this again under the warranty? The truck is unusable at 104K and needs to be repaired again. Why would ford warranty this issue only up to 90K miles? Is that the true expectations for the life of the engine? My friend has a low cost commuter car and it has already over 250k miles on it without any issues. Here we are talking about the most popular, best selling truck in the US. thoughts
Mason, THANK YOU! I took your advice and saved >$2000 on this repair. I drive a 2018 F150 with a 3.5L EB. I have 72k miles (aka out of warranty, no prior PCM update, aka screwed!!). I was convinced I had >$3k vacating my bank account, and while I was at the Service Center at the dealership (where I originally purchased this vehicle), . I took your advice and phoned Ford Customer service, and they covered most of this repair, Customer Pay ~$750. I was wildly impressed with how diligently Ford Customer service followed up on this with the dealership service center once I contacted them. @FordMotorCompany and the dealership service center you work at should realize your talent, technical aptitude, and customer focus. They have retained a Ford customer because of you. If you are ever in Minnesota LMK because dinner is on me!
Thank you, you are amazing!
I’m a 73 year old Ford guy. I have owned 12 F150’s over the years and still have three of them.
The 2018 3.5 will get the 21B10 update and be gone within a year.
Thank you again!
Thank you!!
I enjoyed your comments. I am of the old school and have done trouble shooting and fixes for several companies and like Allis Chalmers, John Deere, Heil garbage trucks and others always at the customer level. I own a 2017 F150 ecoboost with 140,000 miles at 70k they did the update and now it has come back. Now it's Ford F150 time and I have figured out the problem and the fix. My fix is done with having to pull the front cover!
interested?
Tom Silver
11:39 my ‘18 raptor has rattled since day one. Longer in the winter, ~ 3 seconds. At 60k miles in September it got noticeably louder, now at 116k miles it’s in the shop getting phasers. I found out that when one of the phasers go, The others will compensate by having a gasoline gallon challenge. The only problem I have with Ford saying that is, I was 120 miles out in the desert, 3 AM, 10° on the other side of Dugway proving grounds headed back to Utah Valley with 250 miles till empty. The truck limped and chugged gas like a pirate until it ran dry and I walked the remainder of the way to get service. This is one of those worst case scenario things, but the point I want to make is, I will bring an extra jacket and bibs next time. I love that damn truck and the freedom to explore with my wife and kids but more, I love living in a country that I know I’m safe to walk home through the desert in the middle of the night because the sacrifice of our service men and women who sacrifice to defend these liberties. 🇺🇸
2017 F150 Limited, 3.5L Eco Boost. 118,000 miles. Had VCTs replaced under warranty at about 85,000 (extended warranty I purchased with vehicle). Went in for an oil change and they updated the PCM. Up to this point, I had no rattles or indication of problems. About 10 days after the oil change, the thing started rattling worse than it ever has. It rattles at every start, hot or cold, after sitting a matter of a couple of minutes. Sometimes it actually has issues starting - extended cranking and actually shuddering prior to start. Once it starts, the rattle disappears within about 1 second and everything is back to normal, except for the shudder. Going in for an oil change and will have them revert the PCM. Other than this problem, I absolutely love the truck. Sadly, whatever happens from now on is out of my pocket. Many years ago, I pulled and rebuilt a 302 out of a 1970 Bronco. Not sure at this point in my life I am ready to try a VCT replacement on my own.
I just had my 2018 92,000 mile Ecoboost tuned up and I'm researching the solution to the start up rattling. My independent mechanic has saved me thousands the past 20 years and he admitted these problems are beyond him to fix. I've got a $1,600 bid to replace the slightly damaged parts caused by the rattle before they fail, but I see no reason just replacing parts will stop future damage from lack of oil flow on start up. I'll try the hold the pedal all the way down when starting, but without proper oil flow I expect continued damage to the engine. The oil pump accessory may be the best action I can take to get another 100,000 miles out of my truck. By the way, even though my battery is good and the alternator works fine the engine wouldn't start until I jumped it. Trying to explain this to a friend I suspect the computer is at fault to force me to take the truck to the dealership. I don't drive a truck anymore, I drive a computer with 4 wheels that can't be fixed with an analog solution.
Hey fellow Alabama boy, I was super impressed with videos you have made on this topic! By far the best, most informative, and genuine care for the consumer/customers that I have seen anywhere on the internet and I have logged countless hours researching this topic. I wish I would found your UA-cam channel sooner because you provided me with more information and knowledge in these three videos than I have gather in the past 7 months! Outstanding job!! That being said I would like your opinion on my issue. So I bought a ‘19 f150 3.5 ecoboost with 68,000 in December 2021, apparently already it already had the rattle and I was not informed of this before purchase. Long story but also done done they replaced the cam phasers at no cost to me. I got the truck back from the dealer around 1 March and I have almost reached the time for the first hole change after the cam phaser replacement decided I would check the oil make sure it wasn’t low at around 30% whole life and noticed it was a little low. So I move the engine guard on top and found oil pulled up in a couple of crevices on the driver side of the intake manifold. So my question is do you think that the reprogram that was done to try to solve the cam phasers before the replacement of the cam phasers that the higher oil pressure could have caused an External leak on the top of the intake manifold?
I tell you what I’m fixing right now while I wait for it to be fixed. Scheduled start and remote start. Never have to hear the rattle lol!
Thanks for the info as I deal with this issue
Thank you for the great videos Mayson. Several other folks have put out other fine reports as well. Honestly, I am in the market for a fairly new towing SUV and love the looks of the Expedition. It would fit all of my needs except... My luck is I would have major issues. Have found a 2019 with 19,000 miles on it and I am scared to death to pull the trigger. I have also seen where some folks say you can only expect 150,000 miles on the 3.5 EB anyway. Would that be an accurate statement and from the outside looking in am I wrong to feel like staying away from this motor? Thank you and keep up the great work.
For others here: It can affect performance. It CAN hurt things. But you may not ever notice, depending on how and what you use your truck for. Grab your tuner and monitor timing advance when towing heavy and uphill. The phasers start to lose the ability to retard as quickly as it can. I found this out first hand - it got to the point where when towing in high heat, even with high octane, it couldn't retard quickly enough and was pinging very badly - almost uncontrollably. OAR adjustment was affected because of this, making 91 octane read more like 85 (by that I mean, if my OAR was normally -.50 in years past on 91, it was now reading +.85)
Ford CLAIMS it won't hurt anything because they are banking on the fact that this engine knock will increase the OAR (octane adjust ratio) - which in turn will adjust the timing map and things will be fine. This could be true, however the phasers CAN get bad enough where even a maxed out OAR of 1 (as high as it goes) won't be enough - basically you're off the table on the timing map - and now when you're high boost, high load, bad things happen. But again if you're not working the truck hard, you might not ever notice! I think it's safe to say the average consumer doesn't look at things like timing advance and octane adjust ratios!
If you want to know an early indicator.. if you are JUST getting some rattle and you happen to have an SCT tuner.. keep an eye on what your OAR is (don't do this in winter since winter blend fuel throws this all off anyway). If you're normally at say, -.35 on your 91 octane (or whatever) and you see it consistently going and staying in the positive, that's your sign. The number itself before/after doesn't matter. And OAR WILL jump around - that's normal - but if you see the average clearly start moving to the positive direction over time - more than it ever has in the past - that's a clue. Engine is compensating for increased knock due to the phaser's inability to adjust quickly enough between spikes in load, creating knock, thus increasing OAR readings.
I had my phasers replaced 100% because of that (making sure to use the most recent/updated part numbers from ford). 30k later and still great with no returned rattling. 168k on the truck currently. 2014 F150 Lariat 4x4 4.11 rear-end for reference.
I have a 2016 Expedition with a 5 star tune and I monitor as well. I have a low temp tstat, and big IC. This vehicle is 80% a tow rig and it just started to make the noise on cold start after sitting for a while. Low miles around 45k. Have you found a relation between oil weight or brand in your experience or research? I am curious because this started after I switched brand. It seems that some folks have found better experience by using 5-40w or adding something like 1qt Lucas oil. I've also read about using Mobil 1 Delvac 5w-40. Are the phasers for the 1st gen 3.5 using a similar design to the new 2nd gen phaser? Anything else you want to update here would be greatly appreciated.
Also interested in above question 👀
@@kevinblack8584 Regarding oil, while I read a lot online about using X-brand and X-weight, the reality is that, on my own truck anyway, it made it to about 130k miles on a hodgepodge of quick-lube oil changes and only relying on the oil-change-indicator (everything you're NOT supposed to do). This was all from the previous owner. When I had the phasers replaced back at ~137k miles, the engine looked clean! If someone said "this person used Amsoil the entire time" I would have believed it. There was clearly no sign of oil being the cause of any problem.
Once I took the truck, I went full synthetic. Now granted, the previous owner never towed - freeway only miles. I'm sure that helped. But in general, I wouldn't focus or worry on brand, but rather focus on using full synthetics. These trucks cook (literally) the oil via the turbo's, especially when working hard. Oils that are good with high heat and fuel dilution are optimal. Dino oils 'burn' (I'm using that term very loosely) around 200-250 degrees. Synthetics meanwhile are often 400+. I know I just got done saying that the last owner used random oils and it looked clean inside, but again they weren't towing. The oil stayed 'cool.' If you're towing heavy or up steep grades, synthetic is what you want. (this is not me saying it will prevent the phaser issue though - I'm just talking general tips here).
Regarding weight - I've only ever used 5/10w-30 but I wouldn't be opposed to 40 in high heat and towing situations. It's similar to marine applications - in that ambient temps and use-case should decide your weight. Manuals don't say that because the general public these days don't understand enough about engines, plus all the focus anymore is on maximizing MPG, so they try and keep it very simple, but that doesn't mean the rules do not apply. A high-heat condition tow situation will benefit from 40wt. Don't be fooled by online talk on 'tight clearances' in engines. Yes it's true modern engines have tight clearances, however a 40wt in high heat high stress will in fact thin to a 30wt (not to mention many 40wt oils test similarly, viscosity-wise, to 30wt). What I'm saying is, it's not a large enough jump to cause issues. Now that said, my truck has 173k miles and has only ever seen 30wt oil, but in the 100+ summers and while towing, the 40wt certainly wouldn't be a bad idea. In fact, I should probably do it.. I just haven't because the thought of changing it back to 30wt in the winter (assuming it wasn't due for an oil change already) is too much of a hassle lol. Will it affect the phaser situation though? No not likely. The phasers have a design issue that if present, can't be saved by oil.
Is brand the reason for your recent issue? No, I wouldn't say it is. If the truck has a previous version of the phasers, then it's going to likely fail. If you look at a failed phaser, you can tell it wasn't due to a lubrication issue. The kit you want to use (for the newest phasers) is: BL3Z-6D256-C. I haven't seen many (if any) reports of failed phasers after this newest kit was used. You can search that kit number on forums and see that often the topic goes "cold" after users replace with those (presumably because the issue hasn't returned.)
The 1st gen phasers are not the same as the 2nd gen. HOW are they different? I don't know. I just know that they ARE different because the part numbers are different. Also, oddly, the gen2's still see phaser issues, whereas the gen 1's (once using the newest part numbers) generally don't. So one would assume the gen2's aren't using the gen1's latest phasers.
Lastly, as a temporary solution to the rattle, you can always prime them before starting. Put your gas pedal to the floor (with the engine off), hold it there, and then crank (with the pedal down). This is a diagnostic-mode that will allow the engine to crank without starting. Do that for 5-10 seconds, then release, and start as normal. By then the phasers will have been 'primed' and you shouldn't get rattle. That said, I would still get them replaced, because if they're making the rattle, it also likely means they're not advancing/retarding optimally either (which was the case with mine). Which might not be a big deal in everyday driving, but if you find yourself climbing a steep hill with a heavy load on a hot day, and the phasers aren't reacting quickly enough, you can see some BAD (like, worse than you've ever heard) pinging/detonation.. ask me how I know! :)
What oil do I use? I run either Pennzoil Plat/Ultra or Rotella "Gas truck" full synthetic. Both these oils contain high-quality additive packages and are also designed for gas GDI engines (better handling of fuel dilution, soot from direct injection, etc).
I do not run Mobil 1 in turbo applications, because I have found that it tests generally thinner (after being used) and sheers quicker than other oils. I haven't tested this in the case of my f150 but I've found it to be true in my other/previous turbo vehicles. Perhaps the newest formulations are better in that regard, but I wouldn't know. I'm sure it's fine - they're a major leading brand. I believe Mobil 1 has good cold-flow properties, but for me personally that isn't relevant as I live in a scorching-hot region.
@@yoster77 I want to thank you for your thoughtful and precise answer. You are a gem. I hope you have a great day
This infomation is just what we were looking for bud!.I really appreciated your time and effort on this matter..peace brother!!
Thank you!
Great videos, I have a 2012 3.5 Ecoboost, just turned 190,000 mikes on it. I've only encountered the cold start rattle once after parking my truck for a couple of weeks when I pulled my Turbos and installed new aftermarket Exhaust manifolds on it. Now if I park it for awhile, when I start my truck, I push the gas pedal to the floor for about 3 seconds this extens my cold cranking time and allows the oil to do pre lube , after 3 seconds I let off the gas boom it stars and no rattle. I am a former engineer from Ford Motor Company retired after 35 years, was a Senior Ford Tech, now a Honda Senior Master, still working and on some of our Ford truck trade ins I've encountered the cold start rattle on a few of these and revert back to my turn the key on, floor it count 123 and release the pedal, starts every time and no rattle. Seems to me if Ford would release a software update to extend the crank time this problem would be a non issue. One other side note I've only used Mobile 1 5W 30W since my truck was new. Never use the high mileage oil because it may swell the seals.
This was an awesome video! Thank you for taking the time to describe what has been going on. My dealer is absolutely clueless about how all of this is working. I had a a bad shudder (caused by 21b10 software) for many months before they finally performed 21n08. Truck drives great now. Two questions. 1) What kind of damage could I have done driving the truck with the shudder for many months? I had a torque converter replaced that I believe was due to this shudder but I wonder what other internal issue this was causing? 2) If they reverted the software back to original when they performed 21n08, is it only a matter of time before my cam phaser rattle returns?
Thank you!! If you haven’t ever had the phasers replaced it will most likely at some point start rattling. I wouldn’t worry about any damage caused by the shutter. All that’s happening is oil bleeding by the mega cap causing the cam to shudder.
Thanks for the updates and deep dive into these issues, you are the source for updates I give to my company regarding our fleet trucks. You have more information than my local dealer as well as Enterprise Fleet can give me on these issues!
I help maintain our fleet vehicles for the company I work for. I have a 2019 F-150 XLT SC SWB 4WD Fleet Truck. I have been experiencing cold start rattle since around 35,000 miles. In April 2021 I had 21B10 done at 45,198 miles and I experienced the weird shutter, it was very much like transmission shutter at very low RPM. I let it go a couple of months and during my next service the dealer reverted my software back to original to get rid of the shutter. I am now at 67,075 miles and the rattle is now so bad it rattles pretty much all the time, it rattles very loudly on cold start and even after it is warmed up I can hear the rattle through the firewall when accelerating through a stop light. It is getting very annoying. My local dealer says they don't have the parts to fix it and for me to send it otherwise it will just sit in their back lot and I'll be forced into a near unusable rental. We have several fleet truck F-150s sitting at dealers across the country with the same issue and not only are we paying for the lease payments on these trucks for a few months now, we are also paying for rentals for the teammates affected by these issues. We have 180 fleet vehicles and 60 of them are F-150s with the 3.5L Ecoboost engine. We just replaced one engine last month and it cost us over $10,000, the dealer could not tell us why that engine failed. Enterprise Fleet ordered me a replacement fleet truck (2022 Silverado HD2500 LTZ Z71) which is produced, but who knows how long it will take to hop on rail to get to the Gulf Coast! I tell you what, I am not really that excited about getting a Chevy instead of my faithful Ford, but I can't get out of this rattling thing fast enough, yesterday wouldn't be quick enough! 😂
Thank you! That sounds like a terrible situation. With that many ford vehicles you would think Ford would be doing something about getting them fixed!
Great video buddy. Your very amazing. Keep up the great work.
2019 F150 3.5 EB. Did not have a rattle at 30k, 40k, and 50k dealer checkups. At the 40k made appointment to flash the PCM (phaser recall notice) .... dealer told me they were not recommending re-flash unless a problem due to trucks coming back right after with other problems (shudder, poor shifting, etc.). The truck had 59600 mi when phaser rattling started. Called the dealer for an appointment to check, earliest was a month out and he told me not to worry as long as they saw it before 12/31/2022. Now another dealer and FMC tells me that is BS, needs new VCT and no warranty coverage available because over 60k. The only abnormality I am seeing after the startup rattle is a pulsing-like turbo surge at interstate cruise speed between 65-80mph.
Thanks. This was awesome. I never knew. I have 60k and I could not figure out why it made noise.
my 2011 3.5 started rattling at about 70k, when I hadn't started my truck in a few days or after a cold night I started holding the gas to the floor to build oil pressure before allowing fuel flow, then one day after about 12000 miles the the motor stopped rattling at startup, it now has 96K on the odometer. BTW at least 45K of the motors life it has towed between 6 or 7k pounds of travel trailer. I have had my dealer change the oil every 5 thousand miles religiously
My 2015 f150 3.5 EcoBoost developed a rattle. instead of bringing it in I did some troubleshooting. Thankfully In my case it was failed clamps on the muffler heat shield. Easy fix!
Mason, a lot of folks are getting confused on the phaser rattle vs waste gate rattle. Is the waste gate rattle something to be severely concerned with or is that just normal for these ecoboost engines?? Thank you for all your content and advice!!!
Wastegate rattle is a normal characteristic of these trucks. Almost every one of them does it. The cam phaser rattle on the other hand is much much louder. Thanks!
@@FlyingWrenches13 Thanks Mason!! Keep up the work!! We appreciate it!!
Thank you very much awesome video. I just took my 2018 in to the Ford shop last night for the software update and it didn't work . My truck only has 49000 miles and this nose started about 2 weeks ago. looks like it will be in the shop for a few days .
You should be on the diesel podcast would be a great source of knowledge the 11-12 PSD oil pan was great 👍
Thanks!!
I don't even own a Ford 150, but I enjoy your information, and video's!
Thank you!!!
I’m with you on the oil pressure problem, before I start in the morning I put the gas pedal to the floor and it will crank without starting for about 5 seconds turn key off let gas pedal up start truck and no rattle cause it got oil pressure to the phasers
Thank you for this valuable information man !!
I know on the gen 1s if you ignored the rattle, it was only a short matter of time before you jumped time and junk your motor. However I’m guessing Ford is not concerned with the gen2 because you have two separate timing sets , 1 set per bank. Which means your not gonna stretch two chains like you would with one very long chain. Just like a triton motor which has two sets, you could leave those rattle forever with no problems
Thank you very much for all the information provided. I've learned that I just need to get rid of my truck to fix the issue! :)
first of all thank your for the information you put online. because for a guy like me that lives in Madagascar this is priceless infos. I bought my 2018 Raptor new from the ford dealer and as you can guess from my location, there ain't many F150 & raptor sold here. So basically, when there is an issue on my truck, i start digging on FB and YT for answers. Then i bring the truck to the dealer and point at the possible fix. I dont know if it is related but i'm bringing the truck for a P27B5 code tomorrow as a wrench appeared no the dash.They wanted to perform a TCM & PCM calibration/ update From JL3A-12B565-AEB to JL3A-12B565-AED .From JL3-12A650-CZC to JL3-12A650-CZG(TCM/PCM recalibration) . have you heard anything about it??? Truck also started to rattle today but i'm still under warranty so what's my best option: ask for a cam phaser replacement or go 21B10. thansk for your input and keep up the good work!!!
Thank you! Have the 21B10 done and phasers replaced if it’s rattling. I’m not real familiar with the code on your other issue. I’d have to do some digging to see what thats about. After 21B10 and phaser replacement if you have any shudder with it just simply take it back and have it reprogrammed back to original. Hope this helps!
This is the best video Ive seen on this subject. I did see another video about an option for start up that went like this. When you get ready to start the truck. Foot on the break and full press on the accelerator pedal and crank for a few seconds and release the gas pedal and it will start with no noise. Apparently the PCM for a flooding condition will also make oil pressure that will coat the engine before it starts. The Ford technician indicated that if Ford would allow the engine to crank, not start for 2 or 3 seconds longer the engine would be primed with oil and no noises would be heard as everything would be properly lubricated. Interesting for for sure what are your thoughts on that? thanks again 2019 F150 V6. Scott
That method works. The only reason I don’t encourage people to do that is because I believe a $60K truck should crank without making noise without having to do anything other than turn the key.
I'm close to 200,000kms with the rattle. Keeps rattling and keeps running with no issues as far as I can tell. I do have the shudder after the first programming and need to take it in for the new reprogramming. I also always do the oil prime tip thanks to Ford Boss just so it doesn't sound like a tractor in the morning.
Yeah that’s a very good idea!
Super professional video work and editing for only 14k subs. Thanks for the info too man!
I just had mine in a few weeks ago for regular service and they did the recall re-programming. I had no Phaser rattle before, but it has just developed the phaser rattle on cold start. I did notice a vibration at low rpm occasionally, but wondered if it was the transmission re-learning to shift. The trans has been seemingly shifting better since the re-program but maybe that is something different. I have just under 53k on my 2018 so I am taking it in ASAP.
I had phaser cold start rattle with a 2021 2.7 with only 1,400 miles. Dealer replaced all 4 cam phasers. Ford extended the mileage on my warranty but not the time. After trying to get an extra few years on the warranty with no luck ( Ford would not respond to emails or phone calls). I will probably trade this thing in just before the warranty period is up. FYI the dealer actually did a great job.
Thanks for the info! Glad to hear you have a good dealer.
Great video! I like to see you really know your engines! With that said, if the issue is low oil pressure on start up, why haven't they come up with an anti-drainback system like the old 6.0 diesel's? Keeping oil in the caps might help, right? Anyway, keep up the good work!
Thank you! I’m not sure why they haven’t done something like that!
@@FlyingWrenches13 will using Lucas in the 3.5 make any difference or will it harm my engine?
@@ronshaffer6845 I ran the Lucas high mileage stabilizer in my 2013 ecoboost3.5 (96,500 smiles) and it ran great for about 3 months then the rattle came back, also developed a leak in one of the turbo coolant lines something else to watch out for with this engine especially higher mileage ones but I’ve yet to address that, Im about to just run 10W30 for the rest of the summer gonna try to experiment with the stabilizer with it and a heavier weight oil and see if that remedies anything hope this helps
Have you seen the newest Phasers? They have a metal pressed on cover over the springs, seen the first set like it today....... the spring isn't exposed anymore
No sir, I haven’t seen them yet. I’ll check into it though.
My dad's 2013 just developed this rattle or I would call it like a knocking sound almost at low RPMs it goes away when you rev it up but as soon as you let off the gas it comes back but as the motor gets warmer it gets a little bit quieter but it's still there. And the crazy part is is it didn't do it and then all of a sudden when I change the oil in the engine right around 97,000 miles it developed that noise at startup and has never went away
Have a question, I rebuilt the timing set camphasers and all. Should I go have this update done on my 2012 f150 3.5 or should I just go for a new melling oil pump while I'm in here ? Please help
This update doesn’t apply to the older 3.5’s. Only the 17-20 models. As far as mulling oil pumps go I wouldn’t. Stock oil pump does just fine especially on the older models.
Thanks for posting such an in-depth look at what is going on here.
I do find it funny (suspicious really) that if, as Ford proclaims, no damage that will occur from these conditions, why does Ford put such a tight response window to getting the inital FSA performed?
I'll take it one step further, why even offer an extended warranty at all if , and to quote Ford........." A cam phaser that has developed an undesirable noise does not affect the vehicle safety, performance, or emissions."
Hmmmm.......
It’s all money my dude
I've had my cam phasers replaced 2 separate times from 2 different Ford dealers, thank God it was under warranty! Also Ford dealer had to rebuild the transmission too the last time I had the cam phasers done so I was without a truck for 6 weeks. My complaint on the trans was it was violently slamming into 3rd gear and was loosing power occasionally at lower speeds. The dealer removed the trans and found it had a seal that tore (and eventually gave out) when the truck was assembled from factory. I absolutely love the power this truck makes and it's capability, but man am I worried once the warranty expires in the future. Currently my 2018 f150 has only 44,000 miles.
Other than the rattle, they really aren’t bad trucks. If you take care of it you won’t have any issues!
So those late seeing this video can a guy still have Ford update a 2019 Echo Boost or to late ?
Thanks for everything you are doing for the Ford guys
Great series of videos! I would love to see you do an overview on that cab removal procedure. It looks like a nightmare but it must not be too bad if you do it on each cam job.
They aren’t very difficult to get off. I’ll have a video coming out about them soon.
@@FlyingWrenches13 hello, I just had 21N03 performed on my 2018 F-150 1 day ago, still rattles on cold start. My question is does the cab have to be pulled at every dealer for this repair? I now notice my cab and bed are not aligned at the rear cab window, one side is higher, extremely frustrated!
@@zebkonsdorf9388 no, the cab doesn’t have to be removed. Most guys I’ve talked with just do it as is and a few pull the front grill/radiator.
Here is my experience. I have a 2017 3.5. I have 200,000 miles on it. The rattle started over a year ago and I took it into Ford and they replaced the phasers, can chain, gears and water pump. The rattle went away for 6 months, then came back. I took it to a different dealer and they found that the chain guides weren’t replaced the first time and they were cracked, so they replaced the guides, as well as the phasers, gears and chain again. The rattle went away for 6 weeks or so, then it came back. I took it back to the dealer and they tried the update, which didn’t work, still rattling. They don’t know what to do next, they suggested and oil change with OEM filter and oil hoping it will change the pressure, I doubt this will do anything. I plan on selling the truck in the next couple of months, but am concerned that I won’t get a fair price for it because of the rattle, I mean who would buy a truck that sounds like that at startup?? Unless it’s a diesel. Lol
Yeah that surely sounds like a bad situation. The next step in repairing the truck is probably going to be taking a oil pressure reading at the back of the heads to see if you have a oil supply problem. Most likely you do which can only be repaired by replacing head or engine depending on which is causing the low oil pressure.
I've heard oil pickup tubes screen gets clogged which cause low pressure.
Thank you for putting out this info.
Does this mean the 2022 3.5 liter Ecoboost will come with the updated cylinder heads?!!!
Thank you for your channel.
The 21+ engines are different and don’t have this issue! Thank you!
You are very smart and talented. This is the first video I've seen by you, and I'm impressed. You should have your own Motortrend channel.
Question: I'm not quite sure how the shudder issue is caused by increased oil pressure. Is it dangerous to the powertrain to keep driving it with the shudder? How did they actually increase oil pressure with a PCM update, since the OPG is what drives the pressure in the pump?
First off, thank you! To answer your questions: The shutter is caused by too much oil pressure into the heads. The mega caps are leaking that extra oil pressure by and causing the camshaft to have a shutter that is noticed at idle. According to ford, the shutter not the rattle will hurt anything. They are able to change the oil pressure with a program because the oil pump on the 17+ 3.5’s has a pressure solenoid that can be commanded up or down by the pcm to increase or decrease the oil pressure. Hope this answers everything!
@@FlyingWrenches13 Thank you very much. So to confirm, in case there was a typo, the shudder does hurt it, and should not continue driving on it? My dealer is unfortunately nowhere near as educated as you are, and they've been rather indifferent about how to handle it. I got the update on my 18 Expedition and immediately on the way home the whole truck shook hard at low RPM. I called them and they said to just drive it as is until they can get me back in. It's already been a few weeks. I don't want it to damage the motor of course, so it's a bit frustrating for sure. It sounds like on the Expedition, they are directed to only replace the cam phasers, but I'm curious why they wouldn't be replacing the mega caps as well since they would already have the cover off. I haven't seen them, so maybe they are more than a block plate design where the VCT goes in. If the cam actually sits in it, I could see how that's an issue since they are line bore/honed, and you can't just put another on, and would require a new head, right? I believe you mentioned that in the video, with it needing a new head because of the mega cap.
@@raredesign yeah the fix would be to replace head and mega cap for the shutter but instead they are just reverting the programming back to stock to fix it. Way more cost effective. I meant to say shutter nor rattle in that first comment. Sorry!
@@FlyingWrenches13 I’m curious if this rather odd procedure Ford has drafted, involving the flash, and removal of the flash, by specific deadlines, is their attempt to get ahead of a class action law suit. If customers did not meet the deadlines, perhaps it gives them an automatic release of liability in the event of a suit, and they would only need to repair the motors of those that satisfied all prior requirements.
I've never had the cam phaser rattle, but the letter from Ford makes it sound like you better get 21B10 done before February. Took my 2018 F150 with about 40K on it to Opelika Ford yesterday with the CSP letter. After about 2 hours the Service Advisor told me the truck was ready and handed me the paperwork. When I looked at the paperwork this morning there are two work items: Item 'A' says "Customer states 21B10 Powertrain Control Module Reprogram for Cam Phaser Rattle." and "Reprogram the PCM to the latest level per recall. 21B10D 0.3 Hours". Item 'B' says "Customer states 21N08 PCM Reprogram Due to Engine Shudder." and "Test derive to verify engine shudder and reprogram PCM to last revision per recall. 21N08B 1.2 Hour." Now I'm wondering if they actually did anything. And, if they really did what they said, the PCM is back to what it was, and the truck won't have the increased oil flow that 21B10 is supposed to provide. I suppose it's possible they did 21B10 then had the shudder when they test drove, but the letter states that only happens in "rare instances" and I don't believe it would happen that fast. It's about a 45-minute drive from where I live to Opelika so altogether I feel like I wasted 3 1/2 hours.
Yeah I’m not sure what’s going on. The 21b10 recall doesn’t even have us drive them afterwards to check for the shudder because apparently it’s “in rare instances”. Not sure why they would have done that other than trying to bleed ford for some more money in labor.
In our experience at the dealership, i don’t think the programming is actually a fix once a rattle has already occurred, especially if it’s loud. But I think it’s more of a prevention to keep it from occurring in the first place. As for long term damage, we’ve seen several that were out of warranty where the customer decided not to have the phasers replaced. The rattle sounds terrible. But none of them have actually had any further problems. So I think Ford is telling the truth.Also, we’ve only had one that developed a shudder. But the rattle wasn’t cured anyway. So we simply replaced the phasers. Can’t remember if we reversed the programming afterwards after replacement though.
Thanks for the info! That makes sense about the programming being preventative and not a actual fix!
So some people are going out of pocket 3-4k to fix a non harmful short lived cold start rattle?
@@bigpicturethinking5620 I believe our dealership charges closer to 2-3 k. But yes, they do for one or more of the following reasons
1. It sounds so bad that they don’t believe it’s harmless.
2. The service writers don’t tell them it’s harmless.
3. They’re simply embarrassed by the noise and are willing to pay to get rid of it.
But others simply deal with it.
Ahh, that explains my service experience with my 2018 Expedition. At 38K miles, I had the cold start rattling phasers replaced under warranty in 2021. 3K miles LATER, I answered the 21B10 recall for the reprogramming (no rattle at that time). Now much to my dismay at 65K miles, the phaser rattle is back, and I was told that I had an extended warranty of which I was unaware that will cover another phaser replacement. I guess that is being done under 21N03.The service advisor also told me the part number for the new. replacement phasers is different than the part number for those that were installed in 2021, so perhaps there is some design improvement? I never had the shudder after 21B10 so I have not had that reversed (so far as I know).
Just brought my 2019 F150 in for the cam phasers. Not even 20,000 miles on it yet. Between this, the dash and the tranny I've had it with Ford! In the shop more than driving, bought it at the end of Dec. 2019.
My 3.5 had the rattle and it failed on me Sunday night. Low oil pressure and I shut it off immediately and coasted to the side of the road. When refiring after checking oil level it sounds like metal on metal inside the engine. Gonna tear it down this coming weekend and I'll make sure to check out those caps!
Let us know what you find!
@@FlyingWrenches13 is there a way to lock the phasers like on the 5.4 3 valve? Just curious if this is an option or if it would hurt the engine?
2017 going in tomorrow for the cam phaser replacement. Fingers crossed.
Hope it turns out well!
You answered my question about the 3.5L EB. Now I'm glad that I decided to stick with the 2.7L EB when I ordered a 2021 Lariat. BTW, it should be here just before Christmas.
NEW to This Channel as of 10/06/2022, I'am subscribed to FTM, Ford Boss Me, and South Main Auto. I am the owner of a BRAND NEW 2022 F-150 LARIAT V 6 Turbo "BUILD DATE 03/2022". I've been following this CAM PHASER Stuff for YEARS NOW!!! I have a NOISE on START UP that to me "Sounds Like" the PHASER ISSUE????? I have Gathered that the 2022 Built F-150's have these "NEW STYLE PHASER"S"????? I've had the Truck to a Dealer here in California, and OF COURSE they Can't Duplicate "ANYTHING"???? Unbelievable. I'am at the Point of Just LIVING with the NOISE'S, Ya there are a Couple. I can NOT Isolate the Issue because I don't have the Place or Anyone around to HELP Me figure this Out. I know I could figure out (1) Of the Noises, But the Phaser thing???? Not Sure, Mine Rattles at COLD Start up Really Nicely, and This Dealer Claims to NOT BE ABLE TO HEAR IT??? BRAND NEW $87,000.00 TRUCK, and I am Being BLOWN OFF BY THE DEALER?????
Awesome info thanks man! Is that Ford recall official background music in the video? Intense. haha Its a shame in '18 they had to ruin the 5.0L with an engine redesign.
Thanks!! I love the power that 18+ 5.0 makes but not all the rattles, knocks, and issues that come with it.
Thanks Great Video
just dropped off my 19 Raptor for tapping noise 69345 miles. we see what happens on Monday
Thank you!
Good explanation, I just had the phasers changed on my expedition last week.
Thank you!
Great video and in-depth review of the issue. Can confirm I never had this issue on my 2.7 but have had the replacement on my 3.5 @ 40k miles.
Thank you!!
Own a 2018 f150 3.5 ecoboost.. had update and phasers done 95000km at local Ford, all under warranty... now approximately 40,000 km since then the rattle came back outta nowhere, booked first appointment I could with Ford, 7 days from now.. truck is losing power like crazy and the rattle is almost all the time, had a warning of low oil pressure for a moment, shut the truck down immediately, I'm now driving like a sloth lol so worried I blow up my truck.. why does this problem sound like it is very common. This better not cost me money when it was supposed to be fixed while it was still under warranty... this video is very informative but it's scaring the shit outta me
Solid video! I may have missed this part but did you say once Ford has more availability on the 3.5L Ecoboost heads that they would allow for head and cam replacement even after the cam phasers were replaced?
Just had the cam phasers replaced on my 2017 Max Tow 3.5L Ecoboost.
No sir! That would cost way too much haha. They are just reverting the programming back to original to fix the shutter issues on the ones that have it after having 21B10 performed.
@@FlyingWrenches13 I certainly didn't understand the financial costs with doing that. Thanks for clearing this up for me. 😎
And again, great channel!
I believe damage was already done before the recall to try and fix cold start issue , less than a year engine needed repair of 3500 to 5 grand. Engine had around 115,000 miles when this was done at dealership, called about it and they said they don’t know of any recall on this issue
I'm taking my 2018 in tomorrow. I've got 2 week left of warranty and I'm hoping they will fix this rattle
They rebuilt the transmission a few months ago
Just found you channel. i been wanting a f150 eco to tune and have fun with. test drove 10 this week. wanted a 10 speed 2017 and up. everyone i drove was rattling on start up. so i didnt buy. One dealer went off on me when i said something about it said it normal dont woory about it.. All the 2015 and 2016 i drove sounded great but i was really wanting the 10 speed. now im thinking just buy a 15 0r 16 to hotrod and play with condidering theres not afix.
Several commentators have pointed out that the oil pressure can be built up prior to ignition by holding the gas pedal to the floor while turning the key. I do this while watching my oil pressure gauge and don't take my foot off the gas until it changes from "Low" to "OK". This can take anywhere from two to ten seconds depending on the outside temperature and how long the vehicle sits between starts. This method seems to be doing the same thing the software upgrade was intended to do and has eliminated the problem on my 2015 Expedition with 153,000 miles. My question is whether there is a potential to harm something else?
Might burn the starter up eventually.
It has been nearly a year and 12,000 miles since I started using the flood start method and I only get a slight rattle, even when the temperature is in the 20's.
I think a lot of my problem stems from the previous owner not changing the oil and/or using the wrong oil and filter. I had the Ford dealership change the oil using Motocraft synthetic oil before I took delivery. This may not have anything to do with the phasers, but they failed to empty the aftermarket oil catch can which separates oil from the unburned gas before it is recycled in the intack manifold. Mine was full beyond the baffle so it was recyclying the crud and was doing more harm than good.
I changed the oil again at 5,000 miles but this time I used a full synthetic oil (I can't remember the brand) and made sure to empty and clean the catch can. My phaser ratter was still their but was improving.
I changed it again after another 5,000 miles but this time I used Mobil 1 High Mileage full synthetic oil with an OEM Motocraft filter. I chose Mobil 1 because my next door neighbor works for a company that supplies the chemicals that the various oil brands use. He said thay many brands substitute formula components because of cost and supply chain issues but that Mobil insists upon an exact match to keep their product consistent. I also watched the Project Farm comparison of high mileage oils and Mobil 1 high milage came out on top. I chose the OEM Motocraft filter because it seems to have a better design for ensuring that oil can quickly flow through the filter. However, it does not have as much filtration material as more expensive brand and will not last as long. I am 2,500 miles into this oil change and only use the flood start when the temperature drops below freezing. I get a slight rattle when the temperature is in the 20's without the flood start. But there is no rattle when I use the flood start. Also, I'm not concerned about harming the starter because it only takes a few seconds for the oil pressure gauge to read OK.
The bottom line for me is that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Do you have to drain the coolant to replace VCTs? My dealership said no & now my coolant leaking somewhere
Thank you very much for the informative video. I just picked up my 19 Lincoln Navigator for this recall and the cam phasers were replaced. However, it didn’t seem to fix the rattling noise. When I started the car this morning the rattling sound was more longer but not as loud as compared to before it was replaced. What do you advice? Thanks again for all you do.
Thank you for the awesome video and information. I am going to be doing this procedure at home, out of pocket. I don't suppose you would be kind enough to list the part numbers for all of the items you recommend replacing while into this job? I ask because due to the shortage of parts, I'll need to source numerous parts houses in an attempt to find them all. Thank you very much and thanks again for the great videos. I'm not from the south, but ain't afraid to use the ain't word anytime!!!
FYI - there is a new phaser design out now. I’m on my 4th phaser job in a week and I put the new design on the first 2 engines, the old (original) style on the one I finished today and I’ve got the new style for the one I started today. New phaser part number begins with “MLxx” vs old phaser style starts with “DLxx” or GLxx” or some such. I can’t remember, but “MLxx” is definitely the new ones.
Everything he said is true! If you will email me mdunsford90@gmail.com I’ll get you a parts list together next week when I’m back at work.
@@FlyingWrenches13 Thank you very much sir. I just sent you an email.
@@FlyingWrenches13 You took the whole week off??? Woody Anderson Ford would't have paid ya for T-Giving holiday pay LOL because ya didn't work the day before or after....I never got it when I worked there because I have a life and always took the Friday off ;
Hi I've viewed both of your videos regarding this cam phasers rattle and I had the recalibration done early this year when I was presented with the field service action, I still have the cold start rattle. My question is with the Ford Service Tech from Texas addressing the cam shaft mega cap leaking? Wouldn't you have noticed the leakage with the teardowns of the 3.5L you've worked on? And for ford to say that no other problems will occur if repairs arent done except a noise.....if the phasers arent properly lubricated metal on metal wear will occur and lead to a bigger problem, right.
So I trust your opinion that's why I'm asking if you have noticed any leakage from the cam shaftmega caps.
Thanks for being that trusted Ford Tech that we can all turn to!
Thanks for sharing your experience with us and all the details of what Ford is doing. I enjoyed hearing your inside perspective on this issue. I wonder how many 2017+ 3.5L EcoBoost engines will end up needing the redesigned heads due to this problem. With the oldest of those engines only being 5 years old now it could be a while before we see a large percentages of them reaching higher mileage. Curious how they will hold up. I used to own a 2018 and loved the power of the engine. I can’t speak for longevity because I didn’t clock that many miles. Currently looking at Raptors, but I’m a little hesitant with this ongoing VCT phaser issue. Great videos. 👍
Thank you!
I’m getting my phasers replaced on the 15th so we’ll see what happens. I’ve cold the cold start rattle. And if the truck sits for the day after getting to work. When I pull out on to the road and go from 3rd to 4th it’s like the truck stops letting the engine engage. Once I told my foot off the accelerate and try to go again then it’s fine the rest of the drive.
I have a 17 with 54k and the 10 speed
So I just pulled my first one apart. Thanks for the video on yanking the body by the way. There was black RTV on the timing cover. That's not factory is it?
I love the mopar cleaner at 3 minutes lol good info dude!
Thank you! Mopar brake cleaner is cheaper in bulk than motorcraft so we always buy that.
Coming from personal experience who's on his 2ND CAM PHASER issue. 3.5L H.O btw... I did have it not start one time and timed out with that 10 second starting timer ford has. I feel like a secondary electric oil pump to spray oil up there when accessory power is activated, this problem will probably go away.
This guy is amazing
I get a cold start ring on my 2018 Ford 3.5 eco-boost… I change my oil every 5000 miles. And have also an extended warranty. It had scares me to think something negative is happening.
So I work at a all around automotive shop not just ford specific, the other day I had a 19 expedition come in with lack of power complaint and check engine light. The vehicle has 54k miles on it and it has the rattle. The codes stored in the engine computer are P0018 and P0021 so my thought is that maybe it will cause issue further down the road or sooner if the rattle or oiling issue is not fixed by ford.