How Ford Screwed The Pooch On What SHOULD Have Been The Greatest Musclecar Engine Ever
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- The Boss 429 was an engine bred specifically for racing, using the most advanced technology of the day and literally decades ahead of it's time.
Unfortunately, a combination of poor timing, weak marketing and sad, castrated street performance rendered it nearly obsolete the very year it was introduced.
It wasn't until nearly 15 years after production ended, that the racing world was ready to put the Boss 9's massive ports and trick crescent shaped chambers to work.
Here's how the history went down, along with a look at the latest Kaase Performance EFI Stack injected Boss 600.
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Bob Glidden who?
Roy Hill, Ricky Smith what?
@@UncleTonysGarage No kidding, but Glidden gets a lot of credit, especially in 500 inch NHRA for making that engine come alive. His side trips to IHRA races aren't bad either; till he got scared by that turbo 6 banger! LOL
I was at Darlington with a Funny Car the night Bill Kuhlmann ran his 202, and I remember having a hard time focusing on our car while that race for 200 was going on. Buddy Ingersol was my favorite to crack the barrier. Ricky Smith and Glidden looked like they had it but each fell juuuuust short, and then out of nowhere that white Camaro pulls into the water and laid down the most savage sounding doorslammer burnout I had ever heard.
I knew it was gonna be spectacular, so I grabbed my camera (I worked for Cars Illustrated magazine too at the time) and ran to the far end of the photographers area. He was staging, and there was no room to stand in the penned off section, so I hopped over the guardrail, ran about 20 feet down track, crouched down and thumbdrived the whole run. I got the launch good, a few blurry pan shots, and then a clean one just as the scoreboard lit.
It's hard to believe that was like 37 years ago, but I remember it like it happened last night.
That event BTW is what I consider the true birth of Pro Mod. The class had been around for a while at that point, and it was interesting for sure, but from that night forward it stole the thunder from Pro Stock, and never looked back.
@@UncleTonysGarage Yes, that was amazing. Also sold a ton of N2O to everybody.
Hey Tony do you remember Andy Mannarino? (spelling?)
He has some great pro stock stories of that era and from what I hear he is still alive and kicking hard here in Detroit. He had a website and a very small youtube channel I believe, but recent search just came up with old vids that just happen to have him in it. If you could get ahold of Andy I bet he has all kinds of podcast kinda stuff to say.
In regards to burnouts by pro stocks in the 80s, for me the baddest ass sounding pro stock door car of that era was Lee Shepherd in the
Reher/Morrison car. His stuff used to send shivers down my spine during the burnout! U.S. nationals 1980-1984 went to every race. When I heard that big block chev rev to the moon I came a running, if I wasn't already there! I love Glidden, rip, but his stuff always sounded like a conservative tune up to me. I know that's not the case, just my own personal thoughts.
I don’t know if anyone else mentioned this, but the Boss 429 was pioneering in two very important ways you didn’t mention. It was the first production engine in America with individual shaft mounted rockers, and the Holley Dominator carb was originally designed for it. It was way ahead of its time from an engineering standpoint in so many ways.
It was on the cover of Hot Rod magazine in the mid 60's but they released it in 1969 for racing . Smokey had 3 early versions he was developing back then .
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸
and yet it got its ass beat on the street...hhhahahahaha
@@chadhaire1711 They detuned that engine for the street ,I agree but the Hemi came up 75 hp down on the super speedway so thwy built a body to stay competitive in NASCAR and still didn't win everything with it .
And also, I think he forgot NASCAR it was band the first year. It came out after one year they banned it too fast.
You touched on it at the end, but I can’t believe you didn’t even mention BOB GLIDDEN’s domination using this motor! RIP Bob……..
I did!
10 x world Champion!!
& not to mention how them big block Chevy guys were saying how in the hell is he taking that 351-C & beating out 454 big blocks! ❤️
Robert Yates worked for Holman & Moody at time of the development of this motor.
Said in comments about the program that it was the best motor program he had worked in for a OEM race engine.
At time on the track(nascar) they ran a single new Holley dominator carb. Seventies they made them go to 2 barrel carbs so the 358 small blocks could compete. Wood brothers ran them a while, but eventually had to go with the flow.
@@danielparker4698 that's ignorant, the little blocks were winning in prostock at the time due to the weight per c.i. rule. It sure wasn't that Clevelands were good either, everyone forgets that the year that Ford didn't want to pay Glidden he raced a plymouth arrow and won the championship. The magic was Bob not the name on the valve covers
The engine definitely needed to be in a Torino. That's what they raced in anyway! I've never understood why they went in Mustangs.
IIRC they used the Mustang to help homologate the engine for the Torino. Think they needed to sell 2000 engines in cars, but didn't make it the first year, and the rules were waived or something.
Image. Ended-up lacking street cred. Was undoubtedly visibly stunning.
Smokey Yunick hated the big block Mustangs, saying they were the most nose-heavy and dangerous cars on the road. He stated that if ya tried to race against most anything else on a road course or even on the street ( NOT drag racing in a straight line ) approaching turns, you would most certainly wind up in a ditch or even worse, flip or hit a tree with the big block Mustangs, because all of that weight in the nose wouldn't allow the car to turn at higher speeds. Even Carroll Shelby was dead-set against dropping a big block in the Shelby Cobra's, but Ford had the money and insisted that he make it work. He stated a small block in the Cobra's and Mustang's would run circles around the same cars equipped with big blocks on road courses........for the same reasons that Yunick stated.
You mean Maverick or Falcon ? 🙄
@@howabouthetruth2157remember Sat. morning car shows (LEGENDARY MOTORSPORTS) from Canada ? They did a 1970 stock big block challenge with Boss , LS-6, Hemi , GS & GTO.
1/4 mile , cones , breaking & best burnouts.
Look it up here on UA-cam. FYI... Boss won. I wanted LS-6 to win 😢✌️
Next to the Hemi, a Boss 429 was the coolest looking engine ever made. While it had a lot of streetable problems, Ford really did a lot of over the top things with their engines. You had the Side Oiler, The Cammer, Boss 302 early FE blocks with multiple carburation and SBF stuff too. I think it was a victim of everything all muscle cars would suffer from in just a few short years with governmental regulations, the insurance industry and the looming gas crisis... But what a time it was to be alive! 😎
Plus the stock 1965 Chevy 327" with 375 HP... and stock 1967 BBC 427" L88 with 560 HP... available for sale to everybody...
man that Boss9 is way better looking than the chrysler Hemi, those valve covers put it over the top, although the slanted dizzy is cool on the mopar
@@univalve1 I'm a Ford guy univalve and the Boss 429 was the engine I always dreamed of! It's just I've seen more Hemi's in person. I've only seem one Boss 429 in my life but I remember it well! 😎
Tony, your generally right and I agree with most everything you've said here. I've built and owned Boss 429's stock and modified. My former drag-racing partner, Ed Prout, held N.H.R.A. National Records running these engines. Similar to Jon Kaase, I've built a long-time business around this engine but with the original cars. They CAN run well on the street or at the dragstrip if not approached as you would a Chevrolet or Chrysler. They have idiosyncrasies that need to be addressed so their strengths can be realized. B.T.W. We've had both the street-Hemi and Boss 429 properly tuned, with only changes in cam and exhaust, on the dyno. The Boss was better than the Chrysler by some 30 horsepower. Ford designed and built the Boss'9 to win in NASCAR. Which it did. On Fuel and at smaller displacements they were and generally in a word, dismal. Connie Kalitta HATED them. For the most part, the auto-buying public dissed them. The street version was hampered by Ford's N.V.H. and other "passenger-car" driveability standards. Did you know that Ford would not install its premium "Detroit-Locker" and 428 available 4:30 rear gear in the street Boss 429 Mustang because "It was too noisy." The Boss 302, with it's Cleveland-style cylinder heads came equipped from the factory with a 780cfm Holley and 2.5" H-pipe exhaust. The Boss 429? A smaller 735 Holley a smaller 2.25" H-pipe exhaust. Ford engineers have a history of limited attention spans in respect to engine design and development. They never cared to develop or tap it's potential before moving onto something else. Except for NASCAR, some sad early history here. But thanks to guys like Bob Glidden and now Jon Kaase and other supporters, the engine garners more respect today than it did back when it was new. And you're right, you can make a killing on those o-ring head sets! Keep up the good and relatable work, Tony!
I remember talking with Ed Prout many years ago at Sanair in Quebec and I think he won . He was the first to make the Boss 9 a winner way back then .
great insight. thanks!
You can "thank" Ford's NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) people for turning sliced bread into turds. Oh, what a difference a few years made. I had a 1966 Fairlane with the "427 Race Car Package" dual quad 427, 324 degree cam, fiberglass hood, transistor ignition, disc branes, 3.89 gears, 31 spline axles, etc. I drove it 31,000+ miles on the street, it was a spectacular car, yet only 3 years later they brought out the emasculated Boss 429 Mustangs that would be lucky to outrun grandma's 1960 Falcon with its straight 6.
@@bobkonradi1027 Bob, a friend of mine had one too, raced from new and another local guy drove it seldom on the streets in the 70's. Another friend bought it last year. It's the one that sold on Bring a Trailer. If the Boss had been like that. Manual steering and brakes, a real cam, maybe Ford's new Dominator carb.... would have raced against the Hemi Darts and Barracudas in SS/A.
I guess that Ford was trying to build a "gentleman's hot rod" to compete with the Olds 442 and Buick Grand Sport.
The 427 Cammer timing chain was nearly 6 feet long, that is a lot of mass/inertia and stack up tolerance.
Customs and Classics by Kiwi is one hell of a shop
KIWI always has cool stuff glad to see Tony push KIWI's UA-cam channel!
Remember Legendary Motorsport in Canada
(Peter Klute) They did stock Big block challenge with LS6, Hemi, Boss,GS & GTO .
Boss 429 beat them all in 1/4mile ,breaking & burn- outs .hehehe
I remember that. Most Chevy and Dodge guys who claimed to run against this car NEVER did. There simply were not enough Boss 429’s in existence to find cruising around or at the drag strip. The Boss 429 had almost the exact same production numbers as the Ferrari F40 with only a little more than 1300 cars total produced. So to claim you ran against and beat Boss 429’s all the time and back in the day is pretty suspicious seeing how most people have never seen a real Boss 429 or Ferrari F40 in person.
Jon Kaase… the man that Dominated engine masters so badly humiliating everyone else… that they outlawed the use of modular engines and made a separate class
If you know much about head and cam design you know. When the cam is on top of the engine you have more room for intake runners. It about competition. But we know how Ford fanboys like lie to themselves.
@@ernestjohnson1807 so what your saying is it’s superior design ? I guess my response would be why not everyone do it and the engine that many consider to be the best hot rod engine of our time (LS) uses pushrods still and the heads flow pretty well.
Kasse got humiliated by dandy Dick Landy in engine shootout with Ford, chev, and mopar. Kasse said his 460 was going to annihilate the mopar and chev. Landys mopar was the smallest cubes and shamed both of them! Look it up. I still have those special magazines I saved. Hot rod. Engine masters.
Google doesn’t show it, what year? I can’t find a year Landy beat him
@@antilaw9911 Which year? I can't seem to find anything about Landy shaming anyone.
What I remember hearing about the Boss 429 engines back in the late 70's, early 80's, was they were sluggish on the street version due to the intake runners being so large the fuel could precipitate out of suspension. That caused the burn to be dirtier and with that would have been tough to meet the new emission standards that were on the horizon. Someone I went to high school with, in about 1980, took a clean 69 Mustang fastback that originally had a straight 6. He cut the shock towers for more room and bought an original Boss 429 out of a totaled original B9 car. He rebuilt it with 12.5:1 compression, tunnel ram and 2 Holley Dominators on top. It had the original 4-speed out of the totaled donor B9 parts car and locker rear end. He had zero problem pulling the front end off the ground, though he did it with wrinkle wall slicks in back on the street and wheelie bars. That ended when he was caught pulling a wheelie the night after I saw him do it, really late, on the street. He did have the engine setup dyno'd back then and said it made about 900 HP. The Boss 429 worked much better with more cubic inches which brought the air/fuel mix through the intake at a higher velocity. Headers also helped. It was just an engine that Ford put in a "few" Mustangs so they could say it was a street engine and be allowed to race in NASCAR. In the early 80's while they were a little more, a few thousand, than a 428CJ car they weren't as sought after. They were thought of as a odd ball engine with no head gaskets that was expensive to maintain. Wrong yes but that's what I remember of that era and those cars.
My buddy used them and 460 ad Boat ancores and cars. For Insurance scam 😂
Tony, never think that at least some of us mind you going into total geek mode with historical, technical info like this for more than your typical 10-16 minutes. I don't have a short attention span. I DO have a desire to hear stuff like this.
I still just want a GM big block. Chevy/Buick/Pontiac/Oldsmobile/Cadillac I don't care. I just want big, lazy torque. I don't need high rpm speed. I just like burnouts and quick take-offs.
Pontiac didn't have a big block or a small block they had one block which all Pontiac v8's were made from. One block different bores and strokes.
Go w/ a LS, instead. More reliable, cheaper & all the torque you want. A BBC takes too much $ to make it pull a fat guy off the toilet.
GM took the best of the SBC, the gut torque of the BBC, combined it & improved it.
Match it w/ right rear gears & it'll launch like a demon & melt all the tires you can afford & your lungs can take. LOL
@@georgedennison3338LS has been burnt out. Everyone has one now, it's at the point it's just a bandwagon anymore.
@@John_Buck What 'everyone else' is or is not doing has no bearing on an engine decision. It's about what a person wants or needs, performance wise.
@@georgedennison3338 Well, the OP clearly likes his big block GMs and here you are trying to push him towards small block...
Ford has always been the biggest innovator in the game, surpassed only by their own ability to shoot themselves in the foot. The Boss 9 heads are just optimized a bit from stock, stronger rocker mounts, and standard 385 bolt pattern instead of the factory boss pattern. Jewlery indeed.
Chrysler has been the biggest innovator. Who sent astronauts to the moon and built main battle tanks for 50 years? It wasn’t Ford nor GM.
lol whatever you say fiat. A good year for chrysler was not worrying about bankruptcy let alone bringing innovation. Their most associated gimmick wasnt even developed by them.
@@kronk9418
@@kronk9418 Chrysler did come up with many interesting inventions, such as turbine power for cars, innovative transmission designs and the first electronic fuel injection. They just werent very good at making things work reliably.
Their fuel injection would stop working if driven in proximity to a fairly large neon sign. Rather than work out the issues of electromagnetic interference, they gave up and sold the design and intellectual property to Robert Bosch, who DID "work out the bugs" The rest..is history.
Kiwi's Playhouse
Oh I just got it! Lol great show!
😂
Get outta bed and pull yourself up a chair! 😂
OMG missed opportunity
Whoa! Thinkin the same thing Jambi !
Would be nice if you knew what you were talking about. The Boss 429 smog pump, 735 carb etc was used to allow engine to pass emissions(we ain't talking 1965 here). WITHOUT SMOG APPROVAL, there would have been no Boss 429 Mustangs or any other model with same.
That's what he said... also, 735 carb. good to 500 HP, so plenty big enough...
Uncle Tony visits the Kiwi Cabinet Shop ..
You know your audience, and when their attention will start to wander, good for you, there's a beer company out there that forgot who they serve.
Kiwi's cushions and curtains.
I think it is one of the most beautiful engines ever made. Great information, gentlemen.
It seems if you have an original Boss 429, it just best for display. From what i have read, the originals had week heads that liked to warp alot. Also they had to go on a Boss 429 block only, because of the oil passages ? Jon Kaase fixed all that, and you can use a plain old block out of a truck... I remember as a teen about 1978 seeing some Boss 429 engines in the local paper for sale, complete but in boxes. I know i wanted them, but didnt have any money. I saw alot of things like that for sale, but back then nobody cared.... Once again Tony, great video !
Actually there's a local guy with an orange Boss 429 Mustang that drives it to our car shows/cruises and all over the place... it's no 'trailer queen'... car is in 'driver' condition...
Always a surprise when you tell people overhead cams, multiple valves and hemi combustion chambers have been around for over a hundred years. Bit like the time I told some young uns about the use of nitrous and turbos and supercharging in WW2, they thought it was invented by Fast&Furious.
Don't forget water injection on ww2 aircraft.
I have a supercharged 57 goldenhawk Studebaker. Its fun watching people's faces when I tell them its a factory supercharged v8.
Peugeot had twin cam 4 valve per cylinder in like 1927 or near.
@@sugarnads yes mr kwako you are correct. Had a technical drawing of the motor on my office wall in 1974. I belive the posters are still in print and available today.
Still today the two stroke Detroit diesels I saw that were in an ancient earth mover, are super-turbo engines meaning they have a roots type blower AND a turbocharger just so it can run well. I almost fell over when I was told this by my heavy equipment teacher as I was in a program at the time. I always think of “unique” things and then I remember that if I just thought it, it was already thought of a million times before 😂. Thing is we forget more than we remember so it’s easy to think you’re some pioneer. You will know when or if you cross that line.
Smog pump hardly saps hp. Allows more rich mix to be used.
I love the history of these engines. Thank you! And thank you Kiwi for your induct and knowledge as well!
I’m a diehard BBC guy….but I have to admit…those are beautiful motors!
I think the insurance and power issues at the time caused Ford to detune the 429. Yes it was a pity that production of the 429 was limited. Great that Jon Kasse kept them alive but the price is steep.
Timing chain doesn’t stretch, but has slack and wear issues. Until you destroy the oil it doesn’t make it wear out chain due to what fuel. Most are changed on every run with nitro, as so much escapes the rings. Mercedes’ 117-116-119 all have similar chains. When you install new , right cam is 5? Degrees retarded. Benz made offset keys for the shafts and it makes huge difference in idle quality. Ford blew it by not just buying Big Bill, and running nascar
Nitro engines are so loud because of the extreme valve bending cylinder pressure at exhaust opening
Nailed it, Charles. The chain would whip, stretch and shrink on nitro and the cam phasing was all over the place
I suscribe to both of your channels! Good engines aren't cheap.👍👍👍
In about 1978, my neighbor Danny's older brother Robert bought a '67 Fairlane that someone had stuffed a Boss 429 in. The car was ROUGH, I don't remember much about the car except a Mr. Gasket shifter with a Hurst knob, sunburnt black paint, and an interior that looked like a multi-car crash happened INSIDE the car. I was a a 13 yr old Mopar guy and I knew almost nothing about those Boss motors, the only experience I had with them was building a 1/25 scale Wood Bros. Purolater Mercury that I always displayed a fender behind my "real" Hemi #43 Charger model. If it wasn't for the unique valve cover I wouldn't have had a clue about that engine. Over the years I've wondered how it got in that Fairlane, how much Robert paid for it, and what happened to it after they gave up on trying to get it to keep running. He couldn't have paid much. He was a high school senior from a working class family and only had a high school kids kind of job. I remember about 4 or 5 guys messing around with it for about a month, it would start but not run, but after a while, it wouldn't even do that.
It disappeared and a late model F150 longbed on chrome wagonwheels showed up, and we never saw the Fairlane again.
That was my first brush with mythical Fords
Jon kasse I worked next to his shop winder GA Jon and cliff are good people
That's a beautiful motor
We should put that $43k motor in Uncle Tony’s dart.
Let’s face it, that’s what everyone wants
Regarding the slant 6, try rotating the carburetor 90 degrees on the manifold so that the primary side is facing the car's left fender. This way you'll likely get better fuel distribution which may solve some of the flat power response you're getting at the strip. The factory intake manifold could also be ditched for a more performance oriented manifold from AussieSpeedUSA. These guys have custom aftermarket parts for the slant 6 including a pair of cast iron tubular headers which then bolt to a third piece (manifold) which is bolted to the intake manifold, but the key with this setup is you'll have more heat available to the intake manifold to atomize the mixture. But try rotating the carb 90 degrees first and see what happens.
Ha ha lol Im half way through this and had to comment ,here is a perfect example why Uncle Tony does not like to talk cars with strangers, this man is spouting knowledge that is stored in his tiny head and just doesnt have much more room for more! Unrehearsed unbiased (maybe) pure knowlegde. Nice download UT!
Anyone remember the "Boss Mustang" that Ford built in the 90s? It was an SN-95 body with a big-cube fuel injected Boss built by Roush. One of the car mags had a shootout between that Mustang and a 4th gen Camaro built by Chevy with a 632ci big block. If i remember right the Ford just barely edged out the Camaro.
I still have that magazine.
Look at the 429 SCJ if you want a fair comparision to the Rat Motor . The Boss 9 is all by itself . I can't see the cross with the Rat and Elephant engines . Anyway you can buy the parts to build a 385 wedge with 1000 hp for almost 1/4 the cost of the Boss 9 . That engine at the shop is tops on someones wish list . If looks count then it wins .
Like dude said….it’s a piece of jewelry and that’s it. Yea it runs like a mf but it’s hard to plant your foot into a mortgage payment and have fun. Spin a bearing in that 😂 or something else dumb and now it’s just doubled in price. No thanks. I already own an Apache 6.4 and literally just dumped 5 grand into a budget valve train build. Started at 2 and somehow managed to get it to 5. Hell of a grocery getter but still I think of what I’d like to do and it’s staring at 10 grand in the face. I’m not running strip or anything so it’s fine with what I did.
Uncle Tony, I am a mopar guy but enjoyed the history lesson on that boss Ford motor. You could of talked for an hr and I would of watched it all. Great job on the history lesson, which you can cover more on different makes, and it would great content.
Good video! As a lifelong Ford fan, the Boss 9 has always given me heartburn. So much potential lost, for the reasons you describe.
How did the same company that released the Boss 302, that knocked it out of the park in 69, intentionally strangle a world beater with its big block stablemate?
Ford (and to a lesser extent, Mopar) favored exotic engines to win races. And were incredibly successful.
Ford:
Indy DOHC
427 Tunnel port
427 SOHC
BOSS 429
Mopar:
Max wedge
426 Hemi
It was a Ford and Mopar game at the circle tracks and the quarter mile from 63 - 72.
But (especially in Ford’s case) it rarely transferred to the street. Think about it. It took Bob Tasca, to dig into the parts bin and show Ford how to make a volume production street winner!
Just when Ford had it figured out, and released the 335 and 385 series, poof! The performance era was over!
Too bad! Those two platforms would have dominated the streets and the track.
I agree about the 385 series. My favorite engines and they're finally starting to get a real good aftermarket.
I had always hoped for would bring back the 460 with all the new tech in fuel, air and combustion.
Kaase makes Boss 9 heads for the BBF. Would love to get my hands on a pair to slap onto a 557 stroker or bigger.
For lawsuit reasons, Ford didn't want the street Boss 429 to have any more actual power than the Boss 302/351... and Chevy hid the L88 427's under a fake HP rating... same with Boss 302/DZ 302 HP ratings...
The Mopar hemi came out in 1952 or 3. Which came first?!😂
I always wondered why the 429 went into the Mustang also. They weren’t racing Mustangs in NASCAR at the time. Torinos and Cyclones were the norm.
So that BOSS 429 Mustangs would sell for crazy money at MECUM.
😂
600 cubes. Ill stick with my 11 to one purple cam 440 dart. 40+k wow. Must be nice. I like to live in the real world.
Moral of the story , and the song remains the same , the rich boys get the best toys for fun and sport !
Outstanding explanation on how the 3 brands were so close in big block design. Imagine if the original designers saw what those engines grew into by the 1980s.
More Ford stuff please Uncle Tony. What about the intake port size relative to cubic inches on a Boss 302?
Boss 2.23/ 1.71 valves explain why they weren't great street motors. No intake velocity at low RPMs.
I had a '71 Thunderbird 429, and I showed my friend my balled up fist would fit in the intake port! That thing wouldn't get out of its own way until 3,000 RPM🥺
@@outlawbillionairez9780 Both those heads need more cubes. Boss 302 should be in the 400 cube range and those Thunder Jet heads are much better on a 460.
Tony please don't ever stop Rambling on about your knowledge of all of these different engines And the history I live for this stuff And I watch your channel because I get these little nuggets of Knowledge that Only a true enthusiast has been around for a long time hahaha Old man I listen to every word you were saying about the history of these engines Always been curious about them You Explained almost everything I wanted to know I'm gonna keep building small and big block Chevy's Cause I'm a Chevy guy Thank you for the education
I know where there are few boss 429s, they have been sitting apart since the early 80s. They are reasonably priced but just not in the cards right now. Would be cool to build and put in my 68 Thunderbird and call it boss bird, but a famous farmer drag racer used that name on a wicked trans am funny car in 1970 and his was truly the boss bird!
ThunderBoss?
History lesson. Thanks UTG.
There's a local guy with an orange Boss 429 Mustang that drives it to our car shows/cruises and all over the place... it's no 'trailer queen'...
Let's talk about the 427 SOHC. About 625 Horsepower out of the crate maybe 650 horse with two for barrel carbs. Made with early mid 1960`s technology
Awesome Tony! Graduated high school in 1980 and had a running argument with one of my buds (Had 69 SS396 Nova) who had beat a Boss 429. In 84 we were at the Spring Nationals and Bob Glidden Thunderbird Boss 429 (500) smoked the Rhere Morrison Camaro....Ending years of frustration😆
Ol basic 396 chev nova was hard to handle for the cost and hard to bet man on the street.
As was the earlier 350 HP 327" Chevy II / Nova...
@@BuzzLOLOL 😏...😴
I've worked on quite a few newer model fords. About 80% of the vehicles that came into the shop were fords, and I have never found anything on any Ford that I like. I don't care what any of the fan boys say, Ford can't put together a serviceable vehicle. They all absolutely suck.
"This Plane of Existence". Classic. You never fail to make me smile. Humble Thanks.
Ford has had so many cool toys in their toolbox for so many years, and they always miss managed things for marketing driven by people that just wanted to sell more model T's in massive numbers.
That's a crude summary, but there is a reason Ford guys are always looking to modify things, improve things, swap engines. The potential is there, Ford generally squandered it, but when things get "fixed" sometimes the results are magic so there is a fan base and they are willing to spend some $$$$ to "get things right".
Classic example of Ford bumbling is the Ford GT40. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday. Why the heck didn't we see a Ford Corvette out of that car? And then when Ford finally made the Ford GT, they only made enough for collectors. Really a slap in the face for die-hard Ford fans.
Boss, Shotgun, Semi-Hemi, Blue Crescent, etc . The original head gaskets were not individual o-rings, but rather small diameter, *gas* filled tubing, probably nitrogen . It never caught on, anywhere else . At least in America . Actually looked like flattened tubing, if you know it's hollow .
Ford didn't screw the pooch.....they never seriously considered using the Boss 429 as a passenger car engine.....they only built enough cars (And a few more) to make it legal for NASCAR. The Boss 429 was very de-tuned....low compression, retarded cam, and the cam they used was a 429 Cobra Jet cam, which was designed to use 1:75 rockers and the Boss had 1:76 rockers for exhaust valves and 1:65 rockers for the intake valve.....so not the ideal set up for a world beater......but they could have built a world beater if they chose to.
Fords 390 Gt engine could have been a hell of a lot hotter than it was...
The 428 Cobra Jet could have been been a lot better....
Ford could have put 427 Medium Risers in Mustangs and been unbeatable.....
But....
Ford was, and is still, Family owned , and they did't want the reputation for killing 17 year old's.....
So, they stuck to winning at the race track......win on Sunday, sell on Monday.
IHRA started the mountain motors a few years before NHRA in 1982 came out with their set of rules….don’t forget, Ronnie Sox won the 1981 IHRA mountain motor IHRA pro stock class in Dean Thompson’s mustang
Why did the Boss 'Nine not fare so well? real easy....a lack of time. The Street Hemi ran through engineering updates since 1966, and there was still a Ball Stud version planned for the 1970's had it passed emissions. It takes a while to detune a racing engine, esp. while the goal posts (emissions etc) were shifting around year to year. The B'9 had only two years (the 1971 Mustang was so huge because the Boss 429 was planned for it as well), and the 428 CJ/SCJ was a cheaper alternative that made torque--just like the 440 was to the Hemi. Meanwhile, Chevy's Rat had been out since 1965, so they had time to get it right, too. Had Ford created the 429 Cobra Jet/Super Cobra Jet before 1971, there might have been more decent heads floating around for people to build 460's to match the 454's showing up in hot rods in the 1970's
(then again, Ford is cheap--you want the good parts, you buy the top of the line car, so there still may have been fewer CJ heads than rectangle port Chevy heads, for example).
My dream is a boss 429 in a 1969 Fastback sorted out so it runs well.
Just a daily driver quality car, not a show car. Because I would drive it every damn day.
Similar car with a 460 or 400 would be much more attainable...
The 429 Boss and the 427 SOHC “the cammer” was the best engines ever made and they look so pretty!
I’ll take 3 please.
Chrysler actually produced three experimental DOHC Hemis. NASCAR said no way to it also. Chrysler scrapped the project.
Brilliant video Tony!! It's one thing to dedicate a lifetime to mastering a craft. It's quite another to share that wealth of knowledge with others. Thanks for turnin on the camera Tony. I haven't looked forward to Sunday nights since I was a kid anticipating the "Wonderful World of Disney"
ps shout out to Kiwi-bro, your work is outstanding!!
If the numbers for sanctioned racing had been raised to say ten thousand units the Hemi and Boss would have been no more than a engineering experiment still sitting on the display stands at the corporate offices. Nascar and NHRA both caved in to corporate race for sales in the ‘winner on Sunday sales on Monday’ theory. By doing so the public was fooled into buying a lesser product than was presented. Think not, if held to the ten thousand number Chevy’s 396 would have ruled both circuits and the others would have followed their course of providing a grounded practical engine that filled all needs of the general public.
We're glad someone finally laid out the truth about these engines.
We collect vintage automotive periodicals, and can say from much reading that back in the day, these engines in stock form were not considered a high-performance engine. It was suggested that a well-tuned 340, or Z/28 302 could easily take one out.
Hot Rod magazine did a complete dyno test on what I think was an early S-code version. The best they could get out of it (with no mods except headers and removed air cleaner) was 375 bhp. The article stated part of the problem lied with Ford Engineering. Every car/engine application they built, had to conform to certain drivability issues. It had to start, and warm up efficiently on a cold day, had to idle smoothly, and it could not be too noisy. In other words, it had to get grandma to church on Sunday morning... just like a Mercury Grand Marquis would.
Ford soon realized it was lacking, thus the solid lifter T-code was born. It was slightly better, but still no street brawler. There was a Ford publication released, explaining how to modify the B'9 for racing. If you did these and a few other mods, you might end up with something that will put you in the high 11's - low 12's on a drag strip... still not competitive in the big-league Pro Stock class of the day. Guys like Bill Jenkins and Ronnie Sox were cutting a wide swath into the low 10's- high 9 second range by then.
It wasn't until the early '80's when engine builders like Jon Kaase and drag racer Bob Glidden figured out what these engines needed to really perform... lots more cubes!
I wish I had still had all those magazines I bought back during the 80s and 90s when interest in 1st a generation Mustangs was on the rise.
Two little things you didn't touch on, One is that the Hemi engine was designed as a full blown no holds barred engine,(XI-2220) it was to replace the air cooled radial engines in fighter aircraft (lower frontal area) . It came along too late in the war to be developed to it's fullest. Number Two is by the time Ford had tried to get the "Cammer" engine homologated Chevrolet had already built a multi cam big block and they basically showed it to Big Bill France and said this is what we have for the next race.... France said No No No and they put a stop to the cammed engines and to the displacement War. Ever wonder why you didn't grow up with overhead cam small block Fords ,Chevys, Mopars, even Amc?? It's not because the Big Three didn't have the brain power it was because Nascar said NO. Remember this is when the cars were running on Bias ply tires and it was not unusual for a car to go up the bank and right out into the parking lot at 200+ miles per hour.... Look at Indy because it is sanctioned by USAC the rules were different from all of the other Indy Car races. If you ran a "Stock Block" you could run 60" of boost, If you ran a pushrod engine (Buick/Menards) same thing. If you ran a non pushrod engine you were limited to 50". Remember the Penske Mercedes, OVERHEAD CAM WITH a 1/2" pushrod. Good for an additional 10" of boost. Love the Videos and I Must now follow the command set down and subscribe To the KIWI's channel and convince every human I come in contact with to do the same. Thanks
Tony Ford never wanted to sell the Boss 429 they only wanted the to run NASCAR
That's what happened late in the '64 season; NASCAR had a problem from GM and Ford after the new Chrysler Hemi (produced for race only) blew the competition away. NASCAR answered by putting the 500 production minimum for 'stock'' engines which is the reason Chrysler pulled out for the '65 racing year. (At the same time NASCAR nailed the Cammer by barring overhead cams - that's why to this day NASCAR races still have the sound of roaring engines instead of 12K rpm bee hives circling the track.)
A great video explaining the history of the Boss 429. Everything I have understood was that Ford’s focus for the Boss 429 was for the track, not on the street. It was expensive to produce and probably didn’t, in the opinions of their accountants, justify much investment for a consumer version much beyond the de tuned motors offered in the Boss 429 manufactured to meet NASCAR requirements. The motor was designed to fit in a Torino engine bay, and the Mustang required structural modifications to get it to fit. That Ford also planned for and offered a 429 CJ that was obviously designed at the same time and offered in 70 and 71 models testifies that Ford didn’t intend for a big production run. Ford pulled out of factory backed racing in 1970 and spent the following decade not really caring if a Blue Oval was in the winner’s circle despite strong showings from loyal knights of the realm. Ford has had a history of not necessarily reading the tea leaves like GM and Chrysler and reacting more than being innovative.
Have always been interested in the 429. Seems like we were on the cusp of several interesting things before the embargos hit. Thought the Olds W43 got the raw deal. Would like to see someone make those heads to see what may have been possible.
The 442 was a mean mf. My old man told me stories about how his buddy owned one and that kids dad owned a service station…. said tires were free for him and thank god 😂. He said they would go down to a set of bridges we have here and run it up against everything he could and said that thing never lost a race!!! I’ve always been interested in them since then but they are such a gem and if it’s around it’s either not for sale or not worth buying either price or condition. I’d love to stumble onto a barn find or something like that with all original stuff. I know, a boy can dream can’t he? 😂. Anyway, good to see another olds fan in the comments, makes me feel less alone 😛 😊🤘🏻 I have a gen 3 hemi 6.4 currently with a cam and some headers with a tune in my grand Cherokee. Hell of a grocery getter!!!
I've always figured the big block chevy and 429 boss was a mix of 318 Poly design, the "semi" hemi underdog!
Thanks Tony! Apparently in Nascar, the Boss 429 outperformed the Chrysler Hemi, ( which had been dominating up to then)...and probably a big part of that might have been the Holley Dominator 4500 carb, which debuted on the Boss engine.
In the long run the Hemi wins because it has to breathe. 👍
@@Daniel-fd3wp Yep.....that was how the heads/engine was designed on them long runs breathing DEEP and getting rid of DEEP!
The 427 Tunnelport won 3 Daytona 500's in a row and 2 drivers championships in a row . Petty drove for Ford until Chrysler built a body to.make up for the lack of hp.of the Hemi .
Mickey Thompson knew the trick with the Cammer and Ohio George beat everybody with the Cammer and the Boss . Andretti got the All aluminum 494 Can Am engine . They should have given the 494 to Gurney .
The Boss should have the edge. It’s a newer design and the design/ R&D budget was bottomless.
The Gen2 Hemi didn’t have those things going for it yet came out on top in the end.
The boss 429 at first, had a problem with the rocker arms.
My friend Gerald Geary fixed it for them, when ford approached him to race this engine for them.
Soon as he fixed it, they got rid of him.
Someone at ford experimeted with 3x2 and 2x4 intakes for the boss 429 street engines S and T versions ,featured in early super ford magazine
I love anything automotive history.
I've made a video maybe two of of abandoned vehicles I found in the woods, but one day I would love to have a quarter of the knowledge Steve mags has.
Thank you for this engine history video, extremely interesting
I read an article from Mustang and Ford dated back in 1996, the FE engines are known to be lazy, so they had a step by step photos of upgrading the FE engine including adding better camshafts.
In my opinion, the reason the BBC became dominant was the lack of available aftermarket parts for the Fords. Ford built every trick part anyone could want and sold over the counter with their Total Performance program. There was no financial sense for aftermarket parts suppliers to gear up and compete with the factory. Different story with Chevrolet which did not have this level of commitment and relied on the aftermarket. When Iacocca got control at Ford he pulled the plug on any and all performance. There was no longer parts or information on Ford performance.
No lie - i immediately knew that you were going to be taking about the boss 429 when i seen just the title for the video. Those engines are the most underrated engines of that era imo. I would hate to work on a 69/70 mustang that has one though - there is literally no space between the towers and the engine everything is so crammed in there.
My dad was raised in the Mississippi Delta in a town called Cleveland,one his friends had a Shelby gt500, his dad was a doctor,he ordered a new yellow 69 boss 429,he was so disappointed with it's performance he got a lawyer made the dealer take it back and give him his old Shelby back,
Good content Tony! Love the history of all the different performance motors. Was worth the extra 5-10 minutes. And Kiwi is a great guy for putting up with you lol...
Agree. As long as the info is good, don't be counting the minutes.
Excellent video! My understanding was the reason for the street Boss 429 was for NASCAR homologation, and not truly for street performance, unlike the 428 CJ, which was instituted for mass production street/strip performance. So, I don;t think the Ford engineers were concentrating on maximizing the Boss 429 performance for street use, as much as just making it street legal and civilized, as best as they could, so it could try and dominate NASCAR. Unfortunately, by the time the Boss was coming of it's age, NASCAR penalized large motors with carburetor restrictor plates, as the cars were now going too fast, and crashing, partly due to lack of tire technology. If you look at the development of engines over the years, you see companies "borrowing designs" from other companies, and the BOSS is no exception. Mopar Big Block heads are updesigned SBC's. Ford's new "passenger" V8's 335 ( 351C) and 385( 429,460) are downscaled and upscaled derivatives of the successful BBC, with short skirts, canted valve heads. Chevy did experiment with hemi heads on their BBC, and even canted valves for the SBC, but they never materialized. The BOSS 429 is one beautiful design, and I came close to getting one many years ago, and mistakenly did not.
I just got done working on a dorf for my nephew.
Ford definitely does some weird things.
Ford only wanted the engines in the allotted cars. I believe, it was a win on Sunday, sell on Monday, thing. Fords, in general. As I understand it, there wasnt any profit, in the Boss 429 Mustang. There was a loss, actually. As far as, the head gaskets go. From articles I have read. The 1969 model year cars, did have cylinder head issues. The heads, were prone to cracking. The heads were revised for the 1970 models. The John Kasse heads, are supposedly completely re-engineered, to avoid cylinder head issues. I am not an expert on this, but a big fan, who has tried to read up on it, over the years. Take what I say, with a grain of salt.
There are a few things missing from the timeline. I don't wanna write some big elaborate piece (of shit) because I know no matter what I say or evidence I supply... I'll be wrong.
But 3 things missing from said timeline. 1) The flathead V8. 2) The Ardun conversation. 3) The Ford GAA. Take a look at those 3 things and see who borrowed what from who.
Also the 260 Indy engine in 1962 it was converted to dohc the next year. The TP 427 and the gurney westlake small blocks that powered the gt40’s in 68-69 and a few others
Chevy V8 in 1917.....Checkmate
@@will7its France had a V8 in 1904. And caddy had 1 in 1914. All 3 are incomparable to the modern engines we are talking about. When I mention the flathead ford V8 it is because of the one piece block all modern V8s use.
@@travislostaglia8861 I'm talking in terms of the timeline UTG laid out. He said Ford blocks are a mix of Chrysler and Chevy, but he's starting in the 1950s. The decades prior disagree.
@@will7its only made for two years because they were garbage
When I retire in five years I want to move to Tennessee and work for Kiwi for free, in the hopes that when I'm ready to repaint my 65 I'll be able to do some really one-off stuff
Nice idea!! I'm thinking the same number to retire at to though.......
Kiwi engineering is highly underrated
Kiwi ingenuity is a real thing !!!
@@kiwiclassicsandcustoms9160 agreed mate cheers kiwi ingenuity 🍻
I love it when he says that about the big block chevy 💪🏻
Can't help but bring up Chevy's current zz632. 1,000 horse NA on pump gas, symmetrical intake and exhaust ports. About 30k.
Right on man!
Yep, just like a BBF, or cleveland head.
Stick with my 10:1 FE 390 in a 3200 lbs fairlane.
I worked at a Chrysler Plymouth dealer in 1970 we had one guy who had a Boss 429. and a guy with a 1969 440 Barracuda. The guy with the Boss always wanted to race the 440 Barracuda and he always got spanked on the drag strip. Ford sure shot themselves in the foot with the Boss motors.
i just don't understand why ford didn't put them in torinos instead of mustangs given the race torinos would be the ones to use the engines.
About 20 years ago a friend of my dad and I had a white boss 429. I think it was no. 632 but I may be wrong. It was a 20,000 mile original car. All intact. I thought it was so cool until he started it. It sounded exactly like a f600 ford dump truck. Kind of a let down. lol. His 69 z28 with the cross ram sounded way better so that's what I got my senior pictures taken with haha.
Well, that is part of the story. I encourage you to talk with Jack Roush about the BITD engineering parameters. It’s a very interesting story.
I love how you just show up to Kiwi's shop and take over. You guys must be good friends. Otherwise he'd kill you 😅
Us Kiwis are pretty relaxed, as long as we're not being used. They are friends.
I say this lovingly, but Tony is Kiwi's Kramer. Always bursting through the door and stealing the show :)
Tony has the viewers that kiwi wants to build his channel. They are both benefiting from it
Lol. Tony and I go back a quite awhile!! He's helped me so I help him and I like to try and stay in the black as much as I can. Please know that he's never taken content from me, I willing give it. He's a good guy, a little crazy but hey who isn't right.
Ford needed to homologate the engine and the Mustang was a popular car to put the engine in and sell enough to qualify it for NASCAR, Ford probably knew exactly how much the engine would put out but due to regulations that were coming and the platform they were putting it in, dialed it back to fit the car and meet regs. It took hotrodders to bring out the beast in the 429 on the streets.
I enjoyed the history lesson.
385 series block on the 429??
Same as the 460 then. You could elaborate on one of those sometime. Could be interesting.
OMG Tony these videos are what I wait for from you absolutely fascinating and in depth basically filling in the gaps about what happened in the day that as I regular gear head from Australia I didn't know.
I love love love the way you tell us about the quench area and how It was extremely unfavourable for blown nitro so everyone went down the 426 path and how the big valves and ports only work if you back it up with cubic inches Tony when you talk about such fascinating thing you have my absolute attention attention and keep me begging for more .
Keep up the good work son 👍
Ive said the same for many years about the 385. It was slated at one point to compete with the Cadillac 500ci, and I think it was meant as a 502ci if not more but that never happened. It is a fast engine though. Loves top speed versus low end, which is ironic considering the amount of torque it has in the Lincolns. (I have two of them. Cruising with one pinky at 150 is unlike anything else)
Love the long format historical stuff tony.
Ford choked down the Boss 429 as installed in the 1969 and 1970 Mustangs. The Boss 302 had a 780 cfm carb, the Boss 429 only had a 735 cfm carb. The Boss 429 had a mild 10.5 to 1 compression ratio and relatively mild cam. They way the Boss 429 was set up didn't take advantage of those deep breathing Hemi heads.
Chevrolet's 427 L88 had an 850 cfm carb, a very aggressive solid lifter cam and 12.5 to 1 compression.
If Ford would have set up the Boss 429 similar to the way Chevrolet set up the 427 L88, Ford would have had some powerhouse!
You can't hotrod in California today and all cars will come with REMOTE SHUTDOWN by 2026, seriously it's law, part of the infrastructure bill it was.
I have to agree with your “what should have been…” claim. Not just the Boss, but really the basic 428 and 460 should have become what the BBC is today. They’re stronger, more reliable, breathe just as well, without all the valvetrain instabilities and other things that a stock BBC suffers from. But they came along just a little too late, the emissions rules and gas crunches emasculated them before the aftermarket really embraced them. People today often don’t realize just how bad the BBC often was in stock GM trim because the aftermarket so totally embraced it and fixed all the issues GM never bothered with (like holding itself together in a hard-worked early to mid 70s pickup… the things would scatter their guts all over the hayfields compared to a Dodge 440 or Ford 460 truck-been there, saw that firsthand). Chrysler took the Hemi further in factory-engineered and supported form than either Chevy or Ford, and the aftermarket did embrace it too, but it’s always been on the expensive side. Chevys are dirt cheap AND got all the aftermarket love for 60 years, and you can build one without any actual GM parts. Ford’s 385 series got the short stick on both cost and aftermarket support.
I never understood why the big block chevy valvetrain was allowed to go into production with its out of plane valve & rocker geometry which excessively wore the valve guides. The 440 is a gem of an engine - all the torque and reliability you want plus plenty of untapped potential for aftermarket. And of course the mighty 426 hemi - what more can be said when all of the competition runs your product in NHRA. I drove a '72 Mercury Marquis sedan, 429 2-Bbl for years; it was a great road car and I wish I hadn't sold it.
Can y'all imagine if Uncle Tony never had a UA-cam channel? I'll never build a race engine, nor will I ever likely buy an old Mopar street car, but I love listening to the wealth of experience and knowledge that never stops flowing from Uncle Tony. Thanks for sharing all that you do, UT!
Ah, go ahead and dip your toe into car building...
@@BuzzLOLOL with my limited budget, I sled pull my '04 Cummins. My buddy and I turn wrenches on it. I do dig Mopar, and I'd love to tackle a build someday 👍👍
@lAcid Rainl Just ask my wife 🤣
Say... how about you guys giving me a plug! I lost 2.000 from a hack and UA-cam will not reinstate my old content or subs and I've been fighting for more than a year to get over 1,000 again. I have been subscribed to UTG for years and love it. I also have been a sub to Kiwi for years too. I do all kinds of different things but love my old cars. I will make a segment now about getting the meager sub base I have now to check you guys out no matter if you help me as both of your channels are so good. I love the friendship I see with you guys too. Bobby
Tony. Great respect for your automotive history knowledge!!!