Grinding a table saw arbor to fix blade wobble.
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- Опубліковано 7 січ 2016
- Grinding the table saw arbor flange to make it run true (reduce blade wobble or flutter). Using the saw's own power and a sharpening stone.
woodgears.ca/saw_arbor - Навчання та стиль
I used your method on my saw too - really made a big difference.
Impressive that you still have the original blade. I would have cut that up into throwing knives or washers by now :D
+John Heisz LOL!
Would you mind making a video on washer making? I'm quite interested now. Especially with any crazy technique you may have up your sleeve!
+P0tat0_craft or you could go to a place that sells general tablesaws and pay $5 for the hardened solid steel 1/4 thick washer to replace it.
+Jacilynn S I think that stamped steel washer acts as a lock washer too
+Alan Webster nope not needed delta's turn opposite thread so even if you left your nut loose as soon as you turn on saw it tightens right up.
I used this technique on my first table saw (a half junk saw with thin sheet metal base) and it really did work well. Made a big difference.
I continue to be impressed by the difference the new lights are making. Very nice.
Why is it working on tools is sometimes more satisfying than working with tools? Great job, thanks for documenting your technique.
That is a fantastically tiny wobble, I only wish I had any tool that was so true that a .01mm wobble would be worth fixing. I'm glad you pushed on the arbor to show just how tiny the movement is.
Nice, I think youre well within the precision limit ouf your dial indicator :)
(Dont get down in the rabbithole of buying a tenth or 1/1000mm indicator, its a good way to drive yourself crazy)
I love that I am still around 3 to 5 years ago in terms of catching up to your videos.
I love watching them. For the dry yet funny jokes, the occasional verbal expression when creating a "unique" feature(no mistakes here).
I will catch up to your current content sooner or later.
Thanks for all the great videos thus far!
Most manufacturers set the quality dial at 'just good enuf'. Things usually will not improve unless customers voice the issues. So I encourage folks to give their feedback to the manufacturer - both good and bad - so that things can improve (if the manufacturer hears enough feedback, and cares enough.) Do your part, and let them know.
Thanks for sharing Matthias.
You're like the handyman I've always wanted in my life. Bless your kind soul.
I used to work as an engineer at a marble factory where we deal with blades over 1 meter in diameter.
The flange face that makes contact with the blade has an inner and outer diameter. The flange face actually should not be flat, i.e., less than 90 degrees from the axle. There should be a slight angle inward so initially, what should be touching the blade is just the outer diameter of the flange.
As you tighten the nut, the force pushes the flange from the center. This actually "flattens out" the whole face. So if you grind it flat, the outer part will flare out as you tighten it and only the inner part of the flange will grip the blade, hence the wobble.
+boksbox I did aim for slightly concave, though didn't mention that in the video. but good advice.
+Matthias Wandel
That fricken flange was a rickety rocking chair. So Delta machined neither the flange nor the arbor. How are we supposed to machine a slight angle without a metal lathe. Delta POS sucks!!
+boksbox Before anything, what is the acceptable tolerance? what is the reference or specifications that machine should comply to. For one digit of variations which could be due to to the motion rather than the flatness cannot be perfect more than that for this kind of dial. Then considering even within the bearing itself there is few microns of clearance. High precision bearings such as air and magnetic bearing are out of the price and application range of this machine. All in all, it looks well made machine. May be the blade need to be upgraded
+Hamid A It is specified by the blade manufacturer. Typically around 0.25mm side runout for 275-350mm diameter blades.
How much taper would that be on a table saw arbor?
I’ve got a cheap drill press with a buggered tapered chuck mount. I’m going to try this strategy to see if I can get the taper corrected. I can’t wait. Thanks so much for the video.
Thank you Mathias, never even thought of looking at arbor. Genius. Absolute genius. I applaud you 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
A carpenters guide to machining! Good video, as always. Looking forward to some more science experiment videos.
Nice one fella, like the way you just give things a go intuitively, helps me feel more confident to attempt this
Good technique,the machine shop term is "grinding insitu" which is used to achieve absolute runout on a variety of machine tool spindles.
That last few ten-thousandths you are seeing is probably the accuracy limits of the bearings used in the saw's arbor.What you have done is probably as good as it will ever be,well done!
After reading your article, I did this with 2 magnetic wall tool holders, they are thick steel and pull really strong on the cast iron top, worked great.
Thanks for this, followed your brilliant instructions and my saw is actually cutting a lot better and way more cleanly.
Another excellent void-of-pocket-screw-reference video! Great work!
You got some nice results here! I have a 1974 Delta/Rockwell Unisaw that I rebuilt about 5 years ago. I checked run-out at that time and did have about 5 thousands. I used a similar method, but with a power grinder to true mine up. Well worth the time.
I recently rebuilt my Delta contractors saw with new arbor bearings, arbor and arbor bracket. Noticed the arbor was NOT true. Put it in a metal lathe and turned the arbor face. Dialed in the tracking to the miter slot and made an incredible difference. LOVE IT. Had the saw since new in 1992.
nice, I love how methodical you are, wish more people were like that, especially the people who make the tools.
Nice job Matthias! I don't blame you for not wanting to move it out and back in, most likely with the same result.
all this for perfection, matthais you're awesome
Love your work Matthias, you are an inspiration for me.
precision can be a cruel mistress, Happy New Year!
Used this method today on my 12" SIP saw here in Ireland.
Picked the saw up a few days ago and noticed the wobble of 0.5mm over 12". Assumed it was the blade so I fitted a new Freud 10" blade I had in the garage (luckily both 10" and 12" saws here in Europe have 30mm shafts) the 10" had pretty much the same wobble. Put a dial on the arbour and found it was out by around 0.2mm (I have a metric dial)
Found that the two holes drilled into the arbour flange had distorted the mounting face where the blade sits.
Terrible design...
Raised the arbour and set to 45 degrees and held my diamond plate against it for a few seconds with the 400grit side, it clattered a bit then stopped after a shart while. I wiped the face clean and then held the 1000grit diamaond against it for a few seconds. I now have at most 0.005mm on the arbour face. Whole process took around 5mins.
The diamond sharpening stone/ plate also works great on the cast iron table and tracks.
Nice tip sir. I have to tackle mine tomorrow morning and you saved me a lot of time.
Thank you for the very helpful video. ( and many of your others which i have shamelessly copied from). I really appreciate the time you take to share your knowledge. Perhaps I can add a little to the conversation. I have an old old saw that has been beaten up by many previous owners. I too had really bad table saw wobble. Bought a new blade, now just had bad wobble (2-3 mm at blade tip). I found your video with great relief. I measured the arbour play and it was about 2-5 thou out. I was then all set to grind the arbour flange. But then I checked the saw flanges. I had two aluminium ones that fitted either side of the blade. Upon closer inspection they were knackered with over tightening and general abuse. So I hunted around the shed found an old substantial flange used for a grinding wheel that was flat. I ditched both aluminium flanges, had a quick file of the fitted flange, fitted the saw blade directly against the fixed arbour flange, put the newly found grinding flange on the other side, tightened the nut and my 3mm play at the saw tip was reduced to 6 thou. not perfect but i have just finished ripping 50 metres of hardwood with very smooth results.
So my suggested contribution is before grinding away at the arbour flange, check your removable flanges and make sure they are not the contributor to your wobble.
thank you again for guiding me to a good solution
Matt
I honestly never would've thought to come at the issue from this perspective. Great idea even when shopping used table saws out there that you have some options available to you to true it up if you can find a good deal.
Thank you for this video. You read my mind! After hearing you mention this problem a few videos back, I had been wondering how you tested and fixed it. I have a Delta with a similar issue and finally know how to check whether this is the cause. Thanks again!
Wow. THAT is a clean cut.
Delta should send you a spiff, I think you just schooled their engineers and quality control. And I learned something as well. Thanks and thumbs up.
never would have even thought to mess with my big equipment like that. good idea.
I agree with what you done so far Mathias. I would like to add to it a little. As you showed on the video, which is excellent ,just touching the arbor or tabletop would show a deflection. With this in mind, its easy to then understand that vibrations in the belt (s) can result in deflections in the blade, especially during the first 5-10 minutes of operation of the table saw. In the mid 90's I turned a sears table saw into a super smooth cutter by a couple simple ,not too pricey corrections . The first was by replacement of the original belt with a Browning FHP automotive belt (cogged) and by the addition of blade stabilizers to stiffen the thin kerf blades. Believe it or not ,the inexpensive Piranha blades could be made to cut extremely smooth on 3/4 inch red oak ,with or against the grain.( When I updated to a Rockwell Unisaw with new bearings and a Freud blade I did not get a smoother cut but just the ability to maintain that smoothness up to 3inch oak due to the additional HP) To test if you might gain from a quality belt is easy. Make a test cut ,then leave your tablesaw to run about 20 minutes doing nothing. Then do another cut. If there is noticeable improvement,there may be an issue with your belt/pulleys.....especially if any of them are crappy cast aluminum.
i really love watching your videos
you re so clever and innovative.
It really grinds my gears that saws don't come with good alignment or a perfectly flat arbor, or even a decent blade. I worked with a saw that made rather poor cuts but got tired of it and finally researched it, I bought a depth gauge and honing stone. I found the Z alignment out by about 2 degrees (yes from the factory) and had about the exact same experience as you did with the arbor.
I wholeheartedly recommend Frueds Diablo blades in the as-many-teeth-as-you-can-get variety, these blades are amazing. With all this, my saw cuts like it should, just like yours. You really feels no resistance when cutting soft woods and a great finish. If I built saws, they would leave my factory like this, there no pride in factory craftsmanship these days.
+GreenAppelPie You'd have customers lined up and probably make very little money for your time.
+GreenAppelPie SAWSTOP makes the best saw on the market in my opinion. I've had one for over ten years and find it still runs true.Agree on the blades I use them far more the Forrest.
You get a nicer cut than I do with my german pk-100 saw, but I think it's also a bit worn and everything might not be perfectly squared after 40 years.
Awesome video as usual Matthias! :D Keep up the good work!
I always learn a ton.
Thank you!!! I have a Craftsman Pro tablesaw that has a .005" wobble in the blade. Now I have something new to check to get a fix.
Excellent demo thanks for sharing
My first (and current) table saw is mostly made from aluminium (but it is rather big and sturdy) The arbor is made form aluminium as well so I was able to turn that true with normal woodturning tools and my 0.01 indicator Can't pick up anything, I don't see blade wobble at the tip either.
Really made a huge difference!
So hilarious! I just came upstairs from my shop frustrated after just replacing my hardly used Freud blade with yet another new one on my Rigid cast iron table saw because of wobble. Opened up UA-cam and this video was staring me in the face. I'm going to give it a try.
How to figure out if it's a bent blade or arbor: measure the high spot, mark the arbor and blade with a sharpie. Loosen the nut and clock the blade 90deg and retighten. Did the wobble follow the blade or the arbor?
+Bean Mosheen Good idea. I'll give it a go.
That was good. I'm impressed.
Thanks so much! This kind of video is very useful!
To correct my run out I affixed sand paper to a blade stabilizer. I put it on the arbour and secured it to a board on the table. I turned on the saw and pressed the stabilizer into the arbour. The stabilizer approach ensures flatness and 90 degrees to the screw part of the arbour. I was inspired by Mathias.
I had the same issue with my old cast iron saw. I took out the arbour and tried your method, but eventually I gave up and had a machinist friend turn it true on the lathe.
Hi Matthias,
As always a great video- thanks.
I'm waiting patiently every week for a video from you.
You should really increase the frequency of your videos as there is great demand!!!
Mathias is the best!
Love your Workshop. You make projects look so easy (y)
I needed this, thanks for the information
Nice job. Thanks for tip.
I have a Bosch GTS 10 XC and it ripps oas like butter
Love your channel!!
Very nice work.
Great info, once more. Thanks!
Your so right my friend
great vid!
I have a 50-year-old Rockwell delta that I restored it’s a great saw but I use this technique also and got decent results I just got through replacing the bearings in the motor and now except for the blade whirl you can barely hear it run I think I have about $30 invested in this good old saw.
1:38 nice camera angle. You're getting artsy!
Great video, I'm going to try this as mine seems to wobble.
I have the same problem with my delta. Might have to try this. Thanks.
Nice work.
Great!
Love this guy
great video. I think a have a arbor that I might just be able to fix now
Fascinating!!!
On a 1983 Sears contractors saw, I tried using a sharpening stone to dress out the .001" wobble on the arbor, but it didn't seem to take off enough material. That .001" wobble on the arbor turned into a .005" very visible wobble on the blade. I removed the arbor and asked a machinist to true it on his metal lathe. The blade now spins perfectly.
You are genius you know that.!
Great video. Luckily mine is accurate! ;-)
I can't figure out why woodworkers ever buy table saws with plastic bases. That's a contractor's tool, and the only advantage of them as far as I can tell is portability. You can get a used cast iron saw much cheaper.
What an arrogant statement from a child
Oh the irony! I was attempting the very same improvement to my Powermatic 66 when my Baldor 3 hp motor blew. Tripped the breakers, a puff of smoke and that was it. New Start and Run capacitors are not the fix, so I'll break it down and see if I can be as resourceful and pull a "Matthias" repair. Fingers crossed! I miss my saw.
i had a same problem after doing the arbor i done the teeth on the blade in a similar fashion...changing the bearings throughout then putting a very fine grit whetstone (i remember 3k on both sides of the blade at the same time and then putting fine grinding paste on a flat true hard metal on both sides and it came out very close to zero after of course balancing the blade to zero
You will never have anything be completely run out free. A half a thou is excellent eccentricity, even from metal working standards and it there is no point trying to get better than that, especially for wood working. That is such a small amount of run out that you could very easily cause MORE run out by trying to make it better.
What sucks though is that 1 thou at the arbor is 15-20 at the teeth.
Lol, your videos blow my mind.
Just great!
This might be irrelevant, but did you try cleaning the arbor after grinding it? By rubbing a wet paper towel against the arbor while spinning, you'll remove a surprising amount of leftover particles.
Mattias did you ever think that maybe putting in some good quality bearings might make a difference? The 36-650 and 655 were actually made with cheap bearings. Also straightening the teeth of a tablesaw blade to less than 0.001 works wonders.
+Jacilynn S I'll wait for the bearings to get loud before I replace them. Not easy to get in and out!
Great idea. Thanks! Must do the same with a small Bosch saw, which is truly junk except for the sliding carriage, which I took apart in brave youtube fashion, and shimmed with bits of veneer to run parallel. With two dowel segments screwed to it, a box with two holes plops into place instantly, and I can cut repeated small parts, or incrementally bigger, with a micrometer held in with little blocks glued here and there (the magic of hot animal glue), using its handle as the depth stop. Cheap & fast
Good lighting
Nice... I'll have to check mine now. It seems to be cutting well... but now I want to see how far off or how true it is.
Thanks!
My Bosch 4100 may have a plastic base, but it doesn't wobble lol. Interesting video.
+Tony Castillo The bosch is not one of those really cheap ones I was referring to
+Matthias Wandel I have a old craftsman I got for 40 bucks. Do you think getting a lot of dust from the blade is caused by this situation?
+Matthias Wandel Hehe just messing with ya, my first one from Homedepot had blade alignment issues so it went back assembled on the gravity rise stand, replacement one was much better. They are known for motor issues after a while as well. Thinking back for the money I spent I probably could have purchased a much better saw. I think I did look at the delta at Homedepot, but read reviews it didn't do a dado stack. Keep up the good work and cool videos.
+Tony Castillo Very satisfied with the performance from my 4100 as well. It will produce glue-up ready rips all day long with a cheap Freud blade.
plastic shell on a metal base/chassis.
Good video Matthias. I'm a little surprised you didn't utilize your miter slot/miter gauge to jig a way of keeping the stone reliably squared to the face of the arbor surface. That, plus your big square stock steel pieces offering stability seems like a win ner.
never thought i'd say this in a wandel video but your solution was not complex enough ;)
if you use a grinding bit chucked in a spindle and lock that in a jig, you could true it up and use it to grind out that last little bump. preferable the jig wouldn't rely on you pushing it into the flange by hand, but rather using a magnetic base to secure the jig to the cast iron table and feeding the grinding stone with an adjustment screw.
Matthias Try a Diablo blade. I did and am very happy with it. It runs true, smooth and cuts very smooth and easy. It is an 80 tooth thin kerf blade. For your box joints it is too thin but for everything else you will be satisfied.
I will not be buying any other brands in the future. Its expensive to be poor. In other words cheep crappy tools cost more in the long run.
If I carefully watch a thin kerf blade on even 1" oak... it appears to widen from vibration with feed pressure/movement. So the kerf widens and contracts with feed rate. Nice for low HP saws but my 3 HP unisaw never lacks power really. So I avoid thin kerfs.
Forest blades are the best...bar none! You won't find a smoother cutting blade anywhere. Their dado blades are phenomenal!
I like them too. Stacked dado is nice except the buying/paying... Cry once then happy, happy.
very clever.
I would suggest to mark the high spots on the arbor with lines that extend all the way across the face, then draw a continuous band all along the outer face of the arbor where it will contact the blade. Lightly grinding at this point will show you where you are removing material with your setup vs where you want to remove it. Vibrations in the arbor when running will limit your ability to get it to be the desired conical shape.
As for why Delta or any saw maker can't hold tighter tolerance, manufacturers make products by specifying tolerance levels on the components they are made from, and only check a portion of them to verify that they are to spec. They cannot afford to expend as much time as you can to achieve close to perfect operation, as to do so they would be too costly for most of their customers.
Nice fettle there. Not a good advert for Delta though. :)
I'm troubleshooting a recent saw issue after a tablesaw mishap that has left my saw cutting oddly. I'm looking at this to be the worst case scenario, when you had it at .0004" do you really think four ten-thousandths is out of spec? It seems a bit excessive to me. That's less than half of one thou, unless I somehow forgot how decimals work (quite possible). Anyway, I hope I don't have to go this route but thanks for showing me how!
I think it is as close as you are going to get it, the problem may be in the bearings .0004 is better than the tolerances of your bearings.
may be you could locate some ABEC 7 or ABEC 9 ceramic bearings they would add the precision you are looking for.
then you need to think about balance and harmonics. great video keep them coming.
It had never occurred to me until now but I could totally line up my table saw with my universal-type surface grinder with rotating column. I've always wondered what I might do with the ability to turn the column 180 degrees so it's no longer above any part of the base. Now I know. Fortunately for my workload, but unfortunately for that experiment, my saw doesn't show any such need. Too bad. :)
Great video! I may try something this on my old Beaver table saw. Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't it be better to set the blade to zero degrees, clamp the stone to the table saw fence, position the fence so the stone will just kiss the arbor, and then raise the spinning arbor to touch the stone? Seems better than finding heavy steel bars and moving the stone by hand. Any thoughts?
Interesting how quiet a table saw is without a blade installed...
He has another video about making a table saw quieter. I don't remember now if it was the same saw. They type of belt was the main issue IIRC.
I have the same problem with my new saw so have built a new collor. now half fixed.
Whenever you buy a tool today you are not buying a Quality controlled product you are buying a mass produced overlooked product from a company name that has a very close eye on its wallet and nothing to do with the product it makes. It has its limitations but your home built table saw is as good a one of the plastic saws!
excellent
It's pretty ridiculous how precise some machines have to be to operate.
Matthias, can you talk about why certain types of blades work better for different types of wood. I know you mentioned your Freud blade with square cutting heads once, but I'm curious about the differences with blades designed to cut plywood versus solid wood. I don't know when I should be switching my blade.
+esotericsean
Not Matthias but since it's been a week, I thought I'd help you or anyone else interested out a little. Typically with blades, the less teeth there are and the bigger the gullets between them, the better they are for ripping(cutting with the grain). They cut faster, too.
A blade with a lot of teeth(like 60+) is used for crosscutting(cutting across the grain). The more teeth there are, the less tear-out you'll typically get. These types of blades are usually good with veneered plywood, too, since they excel with tear-out. The down side is they cut slower and can burn(there's also more teeth to sharpen when that time comes around).
Most people hate switching back and forth between a crosscutting blade and rip blade so they buy a combination blade. These blades are designed to combine aspects from both types of blades to get the best of both worlds from the same blade. They're not perfect but they're a nice compromise. I personally use a Freud Fusion blade and find it to be excellent with both crosscutting and ripping.
Beyond the type of blade, there's also the type of tooth grind on the blades. There's Flat grinds, Alternating Top Bevel, High ATB, Triple Chip Grind, etc. You can research those more if you like but just for a quick rundown you want a flat grind if you plan on doing things that need a flat bottom saw kerf like dadoes, splines, etc. TCG is used for harder materials like melamine, I think(never used them). ATB and High ATB are good for crosscutting since the high angles of the teeth score the wood fibers before they're scraped away by another tooth which results in less tear-out.
There's more to learn but that should give you a decent start. Most combination table saw blades use an ATB or High-ATB tooth grind. My Freud Fusion uses a High ATB and I really don't change my blade much at all. I'll use it for plywood, softwood, and hardwood. I typically only change if I'm doing a dado, rabbet, or spline(which needs the flat top).
Hope this helps. If I missed something or have something wrong, others can feel free to correct me.
Had you tried replacing the drive belt with one of those "linked V belts before your grinding process, and was there any noticeable difference ? They are marketed for noise reduction and vibration reduction.
Just curious as to whether they make any impact on difference at all.
Tank you. Got it
something to look at in my decades old ryobi.