My favorite verse: “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things.” Philippians 4:8
So clickbait Christian conspiracy theorist (the ones that discuss "Nephilem" and giants and crap) and apologetic and religious videos in general that use A.I generated images (I refuse to call it "art") are rebelling against God? Makes sense to me.
@@Joachim-l7d Clickbait conspiracy theorists yes, it’s very sinful to use Jesus for clicks in unethical ways (e.g. pushing conspiracies, starting videos like “If you love God, you must watch this video” etc). Just using AI can often be an honest mistake that well-intentioned people don’t think much about when they do it.
Hey Redeemed Zoomer! I'm an atheist and I've been watching your channel for awhile now, And I have to say that I really appreciate your intellectual honesty. I think it's important for me to expose myself to opinions different than my own but can't stand most Christian youtube channels. But your channel is one I feel genuinely challenged by while not feeling like I'm being demeaned or strawmaned. Keep up the good work!
Thanks that makes me happy to hear! I think a majority of atheists are like me. You just never hear from them because they don't tend to speak out. The ones that do speak out tend to be the annoying ones.
Great, colorful, full of beautiful paintings, so giant cathedrals were built in ''the dark ages'' Cube - like, monochromatic and sad - looking block of flats were built in ''the enlightned modernity''
Its like what people say, if you have a cluttered mind, you have a cluttered house. Your surroundings are a reflection of your mind... ugly mind, ugly world.
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.”
Dude made a slideshow about objective beauty in MSPaint. Seriously, though, this is a great video and helps put into perspective why beauty is important to the Church. I can't help but notice how much time, effort, wealth, and thought go into those classic Christian designs, whereas the modern art intentionally looks thrown together and thoughtless. Like, it's the easier option for art because it's critical of standards rather than having a standard. In fact, that's what a lot of the progressive movement is like. Do what's easy *because* it's slimy, not because it's challenging or good.
Agreed. Specically the thought proccess is whats interesting. See how many people like to 'manifest' things in their life. I believe this is a response for how complex the world has become, just my opinion
Going to architecture school and witnessing the rationale for why they believe ugly is good and beauty is oppressive was the ultimate red-pill. (and eventual Christ-pill)
@andrirublov It’s complicated, but the root cause is the rejection of the ‘hierarchy of forms’. Older styles, whether it’s Gothic, Art-Deco, or Craftsman have an internal logic, i.e a hierarchy of forms. That was completely abandoned. I think the schools got infected by post-modern philosophy and that eventually changed baseline assumptions of how buildings ought to be built.
Becouse rich people also got ugly look how they dressed then with white tie on events, now they go with 500 Dollar T Shirts that look like 5 Dollar ones. The most beautiful house in Dresden Germany was build by a rich pharmicist Yuri Bezmenov tryed to warn us same as the Williard hotel speech 1961.
Places where the Bible lays out what objective beauty is: -Exodus (when describing temple worship) -Ezra and Nehemiah (ditto) -Job (when describing all the great things God created) -Psalms like 19, 148, etc... -Proverbs 30 -Song of Solomon (yes, really, it's all about the beauty of HETEROSEXUAL love) -Ezekiel, Revelation, and other apocalyptic literature
@ShepherdGuyIsHere The way you insisted the Song of Solomon was HETEROSEXUAL makes me think that it was at one point debated whether the people in it were actually heterosexual lol. Is it because the bride also directly addresses the daughters of Solomon in the same verse where she talks about „you who I love with all my heart?“
I appreciate the argument for objective beauty, but I struggle with a key practical question: How exactly do we identify what is objectively beautiful? While the Bible gives us clear guidance on truth (doctrine) and goodness (morality), it seems less explicit about aesthetic beauty. Couldn't we be mistaking historical European church aesthetics for universal, objective beauty? After all, many faithful communities throughout history and across cultures have worshipped without Gothic arches or stained glass and in ways that one could argue are very beautiful. So how do we identify those things?
Common sense tells us that something is beautiful. You don't need to convince anyone that a Gothic Cathedral is beautiful and that poop on a canvas isn't. Europe did produce beauty at an impressively high rate due to centuries of Christianity
@@redeemedzoomer6053 some would say that a Gothic cathedral is ugly, because it is old and out of taste. (Personally I think they are beautiful though). God doesn't care how high the ceiling is, just about the effort someone put into it.
@@NOTREALCREEK no, beauty is somewhat genetic. People who are positive for humanity like more kinds of beauty well others drag humanity down. Well defining is hard, it does not mean it is not objective.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 But you said that we have individual personal tastes. If we humans are flawed and can appreciate these things that are objectively ugly, then how can we rely on common sense? Which part of the Bible and Christianity tells us *how* to build our churches, and if a large enough culture of people finds something that is/was subversive but still supports a Christian message (perhaps a church with a unique architectural style) to be beautiful in its own way, how do we all know that their common sense is an objective falsehood?
I go to a beatiful church and i want to marry a beatiful wive and have a beautiful family and i want to keep the world as beautiful as our lord god the father created it by the mercy of his son jesus christ for us to live on by the holy spirit amen.
Equating beautiful churches with seeing outer beauty as objective isn't exactly accurate. The 'traditional' forms of Christianity in the East have a different understanding of beauty than those in the West. In the Orthodox tradition, outer beauty is viewed as subjective, while inner beauty-spiritual beauty-is seen as objective. Our approach to church architecture and music isn't about emphasizing physical beauty for its own sake, but about using outer beauty to reflect and convey the spiritual beauty of God. This is why our churches and hymns have a profound, indescribable quality when experienced. They are meant to bring you into the presence of heaven, and every aspect-from the architecture to the icons-has deep symbolic meaning, even the size and arrangement of the icons. Inner beauty, in this context, is purity. Therefore, claiming that the view of beauty as subjective is why beauty in the West has degraded is inaccurate. As a writer, I believe that the reason we have lost beauty in art is that we have stopped infusing art with spiritual beauty, with our souls. Modern art often relies on the perceiver to project their own soul into the work, while the artist no longer opens the door to the realm of the soul or to God’s beauty. I don’t mean to imply that art must directly link to God, but modern art has stopped conveying the essence of the author, turning material into mere material. The purpose of art is the opposite: to convey the spiritual through the material. This can be achieved in various forms of art. The key point is that when you read, listen to, or look at art it should move something within you, allowing you to feel that which you couldn’t before. I've always thought that restricting art to the logical only leads to a lack of emotion. At least those are my two cents
The thing about religion, is it's a double-edged sword. it can be used for good, and it can be used for evil. But honestly it's all about, how you view your free will. For example: killing someone intentionally, Can be seen as a bad thing. Or helping a homeless person, can be seen as a good thing. But either way, it's up too me and you to decide, if that person did a good thing or not.
While truth, morality and beauty may be objective in the way God made them, I'm pretty sure objective beauty is something we as humans can not judge by ourselves because even when tied to a christian society, the norms tend to change drastically, especially in art. For example, the architecture of churches changed a lot from like the 10th-16th century and yet I'm fairly sure most "traditional christians" would still consider all of the different styles beautiful. Same with music. Sacral music started out as corales with no harmony whatsoever and the first person who wrote down the "rules" of classical music theory also said that they shouldn't be strictly followed. Even Bach didn't always follow the classical system of his era, which I'd say enriched his music rather than "making it liberal garbage" or whatever. TLDR people don't know what objective beauty is and breaking previously established "rules" in art is something that tends to improve the artform and isn't always just done to break the rules or something.
If morality is objective then it as a concept is not created nor is it dictated by anyone If it is then it is contingent upon the mind of the creator and hence it is subjective. In Christianity morality is contingent upon the subjective opinion of the Christian God
@@ChiagoziemEze-Johnpaul While this wasn't the point I was trying to make, I do believe that "true morality" was created by God and it's not something that humans can dictate, but rather follow it. However, since we aren't God, we aren't always right about what's moral and what isn't so we can usually only get confirmation from the bible (or deliberately try to use it to make it align with our own beliefs which is wrong).
@@ChiagoziemEze-Johnpaul You seem to have a very shallow conception of God. I have heard it said that God is existence itself. Also that God is truth, wisdom, love, and more. This concept comes from the doctrine of divine simplicity (admittedly it's hard for me to wrap my mind around it). The point is, God is much more foundational to reality than what you are imagining.
@@ChiagoziemEze-Johnpaul "In Christianity morality is contingent upon the subjective opinion of the Christian God" Ergh, nope. That's just your opinion on the matter. Christians have been debating Euthyphro dilemma for millennia at this point. There's no christian consensus on this.
I appreciate your concise arguments and agree with some your points (eg get married, start a family, spread the good word). I don’t agree per say with what’s suggested. The modern world that God has granted us time has beauty in it, new beauty. Yes there is ugliness, but it’s not the ugliest. The fact you and I can discuss the word of God in a text has beauty to it.
I had a debate recently with a guy who called me a climate change denier. In my conversation I understood that he is a empiricist (which in practical terms means he needs a peer reviewed paper to call something objective). I understood that rationalism is much better because now I can know there is indeed objective beauty and morality without falling into the "muh experts conscences" or "objectivity doesn't exist"
@@Joachim-l7d ...I mentioned that he called me that because I am not. I am skeptical of the solutions and measurements that goverments took, because they did from minor to no improvements and affected the standard or living of everyone
In one of the comments here you answer that 'Common sense tells us that something is beautiful' in response to the obvious foundational question missing from this video: What's beauty? This would of course pit beauty against truth and goodness, as both of these things do not follow from the common sense of man in any way. I'm a mathematician and musician, and am all too aware that 'common sense' doesn't apply to mathematics. Often people conjecture things and, sometimes they are right, but sometimes they are way off. If God wanted us to consider beauty in the same way as goodness and truth, he would have laid out what is aesthetically beautiful and what is not. Yet he doesn't. Instead, we have Eccl 3:11: "He has made everything beautiful in its time..."
Strangely earlier today I was also pondering all this. I was going to say "Me and RZ must be on the same wavelength" until I realized we literally are on the same wavelength, we are both tuned in to the Holy Spirit.
Modern godless music is often a nihilistic howl into the dark. There is some modern music, like Eden's Bridge, that is good, and beautiful. They may have disbanded though.
I am a both a classical double bassist with the intent of pursuing a professional orchestra career and a devout Christian, surrendering to Christ and joining his army this year. Until the early 1900s, western classical music reflects the glory and beauty of God, but the 20th century saw an introduction to secular and objectively gross music (primarily as a result of the 12 tone technique which sought to abolish musical keys). This movement was done primarily with the intent of being different, and thus classical music began its decline, with many living composers continuing this trend. Now more than ever, two thousand years after the Resurrection of Christ, we need a rebirth of classical culture that aspires to glorify God. May Christ be with you all, and have a wonderful Advent and Christmas!
And it doesn’t have to solely be Christianity. Just traditionalism in of itself since most of the people living upon this world before the year 2000 (or so it seems) was extremely traditional in everything they did, believed in and said no matter what religion they were a part of.
Christians need to get involved and start making things beautiful again. The Basilica in my hometown needs repairs and the diocese basically said they couldn't justify spending the money because of all the poverty in Canada right now. Like bro, that's the modern logic that would say your church shouldn't exist in the first place.
I remember once somebody on a Discord server posted a clay sculpture of a man strangled by vines, and I said I didn’t like it. Now I admit I was rude about it, but there reaction I got was really overblown. Everybody including the mods told me I was wrong for voicing my opinion. It was so depressing seeing my dissenting opinion smashed into the curb because I was expected to “encourage” the artist, but the piece the artist made looked like smashed play-doh and was getting undeserved praise for being anti-capitalist. This experience is a humbling reminder that what Zoomer is talking about in this video is very real and not hard to find.
i believe that beauty is objective and subjective. there are all things we like personally, i love pixel art and chiptune music, but we can objectively say that God's beautiful creation is objectively and perfectly beautiful
Biologically yes and no, yes in the sense that beauty is associated with survival (little clumsy panda means he wont eat you, so he is cute, type of stuff). And no because it follows the same process HOWEVER might come from trauma. Like the daughter that has daddy issues and now is attracted to questionable old guys.
Market concerns have always existed, costs have always existed. The difference is there was a moral impetus to invest in beautiful buildings despite the greater costs.
@@msp423 Capitalism was not always the dominant system of economics, and was in fact not the dominant system present at the time of creation for much of the classical artwork that Zoomer would probably agree to be beautiful. Markets as they exist now are not a universal constant of human history.
Because the protestant church that has dominated the western cultural/religious landscape for the past 100 years is largely iconoclastic. Why create beautiful art/architecture if it has no spiritual benefit to me or it does not add to the quality of my worship and relationship with God?
@cro_lok2363 it continues to amaze me when people like RZ and gavin ortland will make videos whining about something wrong with the modern world and its culture, but they fail to leave out the fact that it was the protestant church, their church, that just stood idly by and let the world fall into its current state of decay. I'm just saying that maybe protestantisim isn't the salt and light everyone is saying it it.
Future band director here, music fell apart in the 20th century in my opinion, but then again I'm a hyper-baroque lover. I casually listen to gregorian chants and early polyphonic music...
If it weren't for A.I I would definitely have children of my own so I can (hopefully) raise them to be great virtuoso classical musicians and composers who would compose music in the authentic classical, European, musical tradition of like Mozart and Beethoven. I would probably go so far as to not expose them to any music older than Bruch (since he was more traditional in his approach to composition). But of course, due to A.I, I have put off the idea of having any kids at all, possibly indefinitely so. I don't want any future kid of mine to have to grow up in a world where A.I makes all the music, art and films, not them, due to fascism, capitalism and greed.
Thanks for mentioning this. I have some questions regarding this whole topic: I‘m a Christian and a musician and I enjoy 12-tone Metal (and am even considering writing and recording some myself). However this discussion is very intriguing: I wouldn‘t consider 12-tone music objectively beautiful (that‘s not why I‘m interested in it), same with Death Metal (which I also listen to and have also written myself). Now I wonder if this becomes a moral question: Ought I listen to beautiful music and write beautiful music and how do I distinguish between ugly and beautiful music? I‘m just interested in a discussion here and would appreciate if some people could weigh in on this, thanks
@@Joachim-l7dThat‘s exactly the reason to have kids, so that in a world where A.I. makes „art“, they - as humans - can make art and thereby bring something to the world. The reaction to the world being in a bad place should not be „I don‘t want my kids to live in a bad world“ but „I want my kids to make the world better“. Just as a perspective…
@@kukquakk4716 Yeah but one thing about A.I, especially music, that I fear the most is the idea that not only wouldn't you be able to make money off of it, which sucks bad enough as it is, but also the idea that it would get SO good that creating anything original, like a line of notes and melody, would be downright impossible because somewhere out there, an A.I music or song generator generated it up before you did.
The YT channel "war on beauty" has an excellent analysis on this. She's from a billionaire hollywood / oil tycoon family ✡️ who converted recently to catholicism
You only included Protestant churches for traditional goodness, truth, and beauty? Why? We all know Catholic Churches are some of the most beautiful, yet you exclude them you shouldn’t. If it helps even a single person become Christian, you shouldn’t exclude them.
Beauty is an objective criteria they can’t refute no matter how many seething essays they write. It’s a layer of reality outside of their control, of course they hate it. One beautiful church refutes everything they want you to believe about Christianity.
Also keep in mind that beautiful things take time, wealth and effort to create. In a world where everyone is poor and oppressed by wealthy corporations, no one has the time or money to put in the effort to make beautiful things anymore. Everything is motivated by minimizing costs to make as much profit as possible.
@potapotapotapotapotapota your speech is infused with communist undertones, namely in the supposition that everyone is poor and oppressed by wealthy corporations. That's Marxism 101. So, no, I'm not looking to turn it into a debate. Just pointing out the fault in the subtext of your comment.
@potapotapotapotapotapota nope. Just pointing out that, if corporations are to blame, then a society lacking them wouldn't have the same issue, but it does.
@@Alias3141 I don't see where your logic comes from. All systems are corruptible because power imbalances exist in all systems. Those that have power use that power to influence and oppress others. No system can last as the old generation passes away and new generations are borne to replace them, and each new system may start off wonderfully but eventually becomes corrupted with an imbalance of power. In the current system we are in, the corporations use their power to enslave the masses. And that oppression has destroyed our freedom to express ourselves through art and beauty.
Goodness and Truth are not subjective in the views of the Enlightenment. However, they are also not merely the purview of God. There are a set of behaviors and choices which are viewed as universally good/beneficial. Some would argue God inspired them, but the point is, anyone using the application of logic and epistemology will arrive at these conclusions. I.E. Goodness and Truth are so obviously valuable and useful, that it's an act of rebellion and sin essentially to deny the obvious and put self gratification above helping others. That's the point of the Enlightenment. To quote some of its proponents: "God made us thinkers and rational beings, so that we would choose to follow the best path he set for us."
As a Dutch Reformed Bro I would say: Add a little bit more Biblical basis for your statements. Else it's just an ordinary culture war, that no one wants.
I believe in objective beauty but at the same we shouldn't say "objective beauty" when we just mean trad west styles. Beautiful doesn't necessarily mean complicated and gaudy. Simplicity can also be beautiful. Traditional Japanese architecture for example is quite minimalist but still objectively beautiful.
I always understood modern art to be sometimes interesting thought experiments but they actually think they are supplanting truth of what is beautiful. It's kinda funny, but actually sad
As noted, a society's architecture often reflects what it values. I believe this is exactly what we see with modern Evangelicalism. Many of their churches are not necessarily ugly, although they're often not beautiful either, but they are convenient, comfortable, and innocuous. They resemble the shopping malls and movie theaters to which they often owe their architecture and design. Sadly, I think pragmatism is one of the ruling principles in many churches today. If we can build a church for cheaper, even if it's a big ugly brick box, and people find it convenient and comfortable, then that's what usually wins out in the end.
I don't think it's necessarily that modernity and beauty don't mix together. Like you said, society stopped caring about the heart and morality, so we've also stopped caring about beauty. We've embraced utilitarianism. All that matters is that it works. So, now our office buildings, churches, train terminals, and airports look ugly. This is literally built into most building codes today. But modernism CAN be beautiful. This pattern isn't repeated over all of the world. There are some seriously beautiful churches that are built in a modern style. Unfortunately, though, they're rare.
Absolutely right, we need to revive the mainlines. Come on non-denominationals we have a society to re-beautify and us mainline protestants are a little thin.
@@NOTREALCREEK Some do to be fair. The problem is many do not (their buildings are modernist) and non-denominational churches are just a further division of the Church universal that is unnecessary. It would be best if they joined institutional churches so that they can better collaborate. The biggest problem is Non-Denominational Churches are not non-denominational but just generally Baptists hence defeating their entire purpose. That being said I have been to a lovely Non-Denominational Church, still wish they would join the Canadian Baptist Federation. The problem is not a lack of churches but a lack of strong churches!
How then might we respond to beauty that is found in false religions? Certainly, Hindu temples Muslim Mosques, and Mormon temples cannot be seen in the same light as orthodox (historical) Christian cathedrals despite their ornate architecture and design? I agree that we should have an appreciation of beauty, however I can't see it being directly linked to our spirituality. Even when God chose david, I Samuel 16:7 says, "But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart'." Also, in the New Testament, the Pharisees and Sadducees certainly represented a religious experience that was admirable on the outside, but "full of dead man's bones" on the inside. Like I say, I can appreciate the beauty historical Christianity just like anyone else (I have visited and sang in some spectacular cathedrals, particularly in Europe. However, it's a bit dangerous to assume that everything that is beautiful is just a representation of God. The devil has some mighty good counterfeits. He even sold Eve on the beauty of the forbidden fruit.
exactly, and let’s not forget Jesus was NOT beautiful. when He was incarnate, the Bible states he had no beauty to attract or majesty. He was plain looking, so this whole point RZ is saying is ridiculous.
The modern world not liking beauty I can agree with that That's actually a thing in modern gaming industry It's been a problem the past couple years Because modern game developers Don't Like making beautiful woman😅 And they make them unattractive and look more like men And a Artist in DC comics Deals with these groups For the past couple years but He just ends up Drawing sexy female super heros Just to Mess with Them
It is not as clear cut as that, one of the most scathing criticisms of the post-modern art (in the wider meaning) is from Eric Hobsbawn, Jewish Marxist atheist historian. All it takes is a bit of intellectual honesty and willingness to call the "expert's" bluff
Just like goodness has some subjectivity to it, I think beauty does too. Yes, every human instinctively knows a sunset over the ocean is objectively beautiful. No doubt. But I don’t find all women beautiful. Even with inward beauty, some traits I detest and hate others find beautiful. So it’s tricky
Mybad, I meant goodness. Not morality. It is good to give to the poor, but it’s not good to give to the poor if it puts your own family at risk financially. That kind of subjectivity
@@JudeStradtner There is most certainly a subjective element to morally. Consider the case of a man cutting another man open. Is that act moral? You can't tell without knowing the cutter's subjective knowledge and intentions.
There is objective beauty. But we don't always know it. Just like we don't always know the truth, like we don't always know what is good. But we can feel it. We can feel that something it true, that something is good, and that something is beautiful. It is in our instinct no matter how many modernists lie about it.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder IS an old idea. I read it in Aesop's Fables. It's hard to be objective about religion when it is constantly being influenced by culture. It's a struggle and it seems we all wear different cultural lenses.
I still personally think art and artistic expression is wholly subjective and not objective. But is amazingly beautiful when it embraces and embellishes scripture and worship.
Are Churches ugly because nobody likes beauty, or is more likely they are ugly because many new churches, especially non-mainline ones, don't have the resources but build a new beautiful church? I think more conservative branches feel conservative teaching is more important, and cost effective than a beautiful church, and not that they do not like a pretty church. Do we help the poor with food drives and missions or do we make the church pretty? All 3 would be ideal but the reality is the more you add to beauty the less resources are left for helping and spreading the gospel and growing the church.
i would say the beauty of the church is the most important, a beautiful church draw people to God and will help the conversions of thousands way more than helping people could
@@SimonNissen94I’m all for beautiful churches, but I massively disagree with you. The Church feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and clothing the naked will advance the kingdom of God much further than having a pretty building.
Developing a distinctive Biblical esthetic goes along with a Biblical epistemology and metaphysic. But synthesizing an Egyptian worldview (Exodus 32), Aristotelean worldview (Thomas Aquinas) or postmodern worldview (Friedrich Nietzsche) is rejection of the distinctive Biblical worldview .
Mostly agree, but not all art has to be beautiful. Art is used to express, and sometimes you want to express displeasant emotions or experiences; though, I agree that, as Christians, art as a whole should point to God. Sometimes, by adding dissonance, beautiful intervals sound even better.
It doesnt make sense to say that a classical view on beauty must be the christian just because it is classical. Christianity is about Lord Jesus not about classical philosophy
Bro add all csi Church in your map csi(church of south india) is a union of four mainline protestants churches (Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregationalists) and in southern part of india there are more csi churches
7:15 I disagree here. The real way to say this is that some modern art is anti-beauty, but some is not. I make modern art all the time, and the idea is the play with what the Creator left us, colors and shapes, to make something interesting. For example, very colorful abstract art can be done well because it can represent a basic outline of what God has made (i.e. A river), but do it in a way that challenges exactly how the brain works, such as making it blue, violet, and red in a shifting gradient. It's not ugly, but it doesn't fit the stereotype of beauty you propose. Some beauty is subjective, some is not. We are all wired differently by God to see the world uniquely. Also, I say this: The idea of beauty is also limited by skill at the time. This is why pre-Renaissance art is usually grotesque or uncanny. It was beautiful at the time, but now it's not. It takes true skill to convey beauty, and not everyone has it, despite the coddling of society. I make abstract art, EDM, emo rap, & black metal. It's not for everyone, but it helps those who need it. As I've said many times before, "To truly understand the light we must first suffer through its absence".
My favorite verse: “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable-if anything is excellent or praiseworthy-think about such things.”
Philippians 4:8
Likewise. One the great Bible verses.
Wow! I just heard that on the Charles Stanley radio program today. And this verse shows that there is a biblical standard of pure and lovely things
Christians today have two path
Rainbow or a man of pride and hatred. It's sad
God is all beauty and goodness. The embrace of ugliness in the world is nothing more than rebellion against the Creator.
So clickbait Christian conspiracy theorist (the ones that discuss "Nephilem" and giants and crap) and apologetic and religious videos in general that use A.I generated images (I refuse to call it "art") are rebelling against God? Makes sense to me.
Satan is ugly and evil.
@@Joachim-l7d Clickbait conspiracy theorists yes, it’s very sinful to use Jesus for clicks in unethical ways (e.g. pushing conspiracies, starting videos like “If you love God, you must watch this video” etc). Just using AI can often be an honest mistake that well-intentioned people don’t think much about when they do it.
God made all the ugly people and things.
God cares about our heart posture way more than subjectrive beauty
The problem is not the lack of beautiful churches. The problem is the lack of inner beauty within people's hearts.
As an agnostic, I agree
@@metanoeo4as a former agnostic Jesus is the truth ❤
I totally agree. You could build the most beautifull church on earth, but if love grows cold, everything was in vain.
@@sofiabravo1994 how so?
I love beautiful churches.
Hey Redeemed Zoomer! I'm an atheist and I've been watching your channel for awhile now, And I have to say that I really appreciate your intellectual honesty. I think it's important for me to expose myself to opinions different than my own but can't stand most Christian youtube channels. But your channel is one I feel genuinely challenged by while not feeling like I'm being demeaned or strawmaned.
Keep up the good work!
You my friend, are the best kind of atheist. Seriously
Thanks for being respectful.
Glad we can enjoy the same content even though we have opposing views
@@Eritha_Borne Good content is good content no matter what view you have
Thanks that makes me happy to hear! I think a majority of atheists are like me. You just never hear from them because they don't tend to speak out. The ones that do speak out tend to be the annoying ones.
all modern/soviet architecture is deppresing, old architecture was and still by far better
Great, colorful, full of beautiful paintings, so giant cathedrals were built in ''the dark ages''
Cube - like, monochromatic and sad - looking block of flats were built in ''the enlightned modernity''
Soviet architecture did indeed do away with God
Sadly, Orthodox church inherit many sins of the soviets. The pride, self righteous, idolatry, and glorifying war. Putin turned it into a tool
Sadly, Orthodox church inherit many of the soviet's sin. The pride, self righteous, idolatry, and glorifying war. Just ungodly
Sadly, current ortodhox church still inherit the sins of the Soviet. Pride and glorifying w*r. It is just ungodly
Its like what people say, if you have a cluttered mind, you have a cluttered house. Your surroundings are a reflection of your mind... ugly mind, ugly world.
Full house, full mind
Proverbs 14:4. "Where there are no oxen, the manger is clean, but abundant crops come by the strength of the ox.
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.”
A church can be modern and still be beautiful I do agree that churches should try their best to look beautiful
I agree. I don't think beauty is always synonymous with Renaissance European architecture.
I love modern Lutheran Churches
@Sebman1113 There's a nice one in my town.
Yes absolutely. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder
@@NOTREALCREEK Exactly. Europe≠beautiful.
Dude made a slideshow about objective beauty in MSPaint.
Seriously, though, this is a great video and helps put into perspective why beauty is important to the Church. I can't help but notice how much time, effort, wealth, and thought go into those classic Christian designs, whereas the modern art intentionally looks thrown together and thoughtless. Like, it's the easier option for art because it's critical of standards rather than having a standard. In fact, that's what a lot of the progressive movement is like. Do what's easy *because* it's slimy, not because it's challenging or good.
Agreed. Specically the thought proccess is whats interesting. See how many people like to 'manifest' things in their life. I believe this is a response for how complex the world has become, just my opinion
That could be true, but another part is that some modern churches appeal more to younger folks and non believers. It isn't 𝘢𝘭𝘸𝘢𝘺𝘴 because of laziness
Going to architecture school and witnessing the rationale for why they believe ugly is good and beauty is oppressive was the ultimate red-pill. (and eventual Christ-pill)
Why do they think that? Can you elaborate?
@andrirublov It’s complicated, but the root cause is the rejection of the ‘hierarchy of forms’.
Older styles, whether it’s Gothic, Art-Deco, or Craftsman have an internal logic, i.e a hierarchy of forms.
That was completely abandoned. I think the schools got infected by post-modern philosophy and that eventually changed baseline assumptions of how buildings ought to be built.
“Beauty will save the world” - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
God made things beautiful that didn't have to be, therefore, we should too.
Also.. rich families used to build beautiful libraries and buildings a few decades ago.. you barely see any of that now.
Becouse rich people also got ugly look how they dressed then with white tie on events, now they go with 500 Dollar T Shirts that look like 5 Dollar ones. The most beautiful house in Dresden Germany was build by a rich pharmicist Yuri Bezmenov tryed to warn us same as the Williard hotel speech 1961.
Places where the Bible lays out what objective beauty is:
-Exodus (when describing temple worship)
-Ezra and Nehemiah (ditto)
-Job (when describing all the great things God created)
-Psalms like 19, 148, etc...
-Proverbs 30
-Song of Solomon (yes, really, it's all about the beauty of HETEROSEXUAL love)
-Ezekiel, Revelation, and other apocalyptic literature
@ShepherdGuyIsHere The way you insisted the Song of Solomon was HETEROSEXUAL makes me think that it was at one point debated whether the people in it were actually heterosexual lol. Is it because the bride also directly addresses the daughters of Solomon in the same verse where she talks about „you who I love with all my heart?“
@@MargaretBurmingham-qm5dx Ehhhh I was more thinking the way people think homosexual "love" is as beautiful as hetero (it's not)
I appreciate the argument for objective beauty, but I struggle with a key practical question: How exactly do we identify what is objectively beautiful? While the Bible gives us clear guidance on truth (doctrine) and goodness (morality), it seems less explicit about aesthetic beauty. Couldn't we be mistaking historical European church aesthetics for universal, objective beauty? After all, many faithful communities throughout history and across cultures have worshipped without Gothic arches or stained glass and in ways that one could argue are very beautiful. So how do we identify those things?
Common sense tells us that something is beautiful. You don't need to convince anyone that a Gothic Cathedral is beautiful and that poop on a canvas isn't. Europe did produce beauty at an impressively high rate due to centuries of Christianity
@@redeemedzoomer6053 so in other words beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 some would say that a Gothic cathedral is ugly, because it is old and out of taste. (Personally I think they are beautiful though). God doesn't care how high the ceiling is, just about the effort someone put into it.
@@NOTREALCREEK no, beauty is somewhat genetic. People who are positive for humanity like more kinds of beauty well others drag humanity down. Well defining is hard, it does not mean it is not objective.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 But you said that we have individual personal tastes. If we humans are flawed and can appreciate these things that are objectively ugly, then how can we rely on common sense? Which part of the Bible and Christianity tells us *how* to build our churches, and if a large enough culture of people finds something that is/was subversive but still supports a Christian message (perhaps a church with a unique architectural style) to be beautiful in its own way, how do we all know that their common sense is an objective falsehood?
Beauty is a gateway to goodness. The true, the beautiful and the good are just different aspects of the same thing.
More importantly Jesus is THE gateway to heaven
I really REALLY don't think that the world is the ugliest now that it's ever been; we just have cell phones now so we have more access.
It's weird because gothic cathedrals where once considered ugly, "objectively" ugly
Good point?
Calling Picasso objectively ugly is wild 😂
right? picassos art is beautiful
It is ugly
It is definitely ugly
It’s ugly it’s just unique
If you can make a skateboard ramp in between the eyes of someone in a portrait yes the art is objectively ugly
Probably magnets.
🤓
@@alfieingrouille1528 So tru
@@MonsieurDeanagreed~🗿
Monsieur Z.It's you
@@kostafilipovic8488 Howdy
I go to a beatiful church and i want to marry a beatiful wive and have a beautiful family and i want to keep the world as beautiful as our lord god the father created it by the mercy of his son jesus christ for us to live on by the holy spirit amen.
Meanwhile me:
knowing the answer to the question
still clicks on the video anyway…
Same
Equating beautiful churches with seeing outer beauty as objective isn't exactly accurate. The 'traditional' forms of Christianity in the East have a different understanding of beauty than those in the West. In the Orthodox tradition, outer beauty is viewed as subjective, while inner beauty-spiritual beauty-is seen as objective. Our approach to church architecture and music isn't about emphasizing physical beauty for its own sake, but about using outer beauty to reflect and convey the spiritual beauty of God. This is why our churches and hymns have a profound, indescribable quality when experienced. They are meant to bring you into the presence of heaven, and every aspect-from the architecture to the icons-has deep symbolic meaning, even the size and arrangement of the icons.
Inner beauty, in this context, is purity. Therefore, claiming that the view of beauty as subjective is why beauty in the West has degraded is inaccurate. As a writer, I believe that the reason we have lost beauty in art is that we have stopped infusing art with spiritual beauty, with our souls. Modern art often relies on the perceiver to project their own soul into the work, while the artist no longer opens the door to the realm of the soul or to God’s beauty. I don’t mean to imply that art must directly link to God, but modern art has stopped conveying the essence of the author, turning material into mere material. The purpose of art is the opposite: to convey the spiritual through the material. This can be achieved in various forms of art. The key point is that when you read, listen to, or look at art it should move something within you, allowing you to feel that which you couldn’t before. I've always thought that restricting art to the logical only leads to a lack of emotion. At least those are my two cents
You have such a way of perfectly encapsulating the issues with not just the church but modern society! Keep it up! Consider writing a book as well
The thing about religion, is it's a double-edged sword. it can be used for good, and it can be used for evil. But honestly it's all about, how you view your free will. For example: killing someone intentionally, Can be seen as a bad thing. Or helping a homeless person, can be seen as a good thing. But either way, it's up too me and you to decide, if that person did a good thing or not.
You’ve been popping off lately. Can’t wait to see you hit 1M, shouldn’t be too long now.
Picasso was actually talented though. His early paintings were traditional.
Unlike Pollock who just threw paint on a canvas and called it a day.
Thank you so much for this video. I am so sick of the ugliness.
While truth, morality and beauty may be objective in the way God made them, I'm pretty sure objective beauty is something we as humans can not judge by ourselves because even when tied to a christian society, the norms tend to change drastically, especially in art. For example, the architecture of churches changed a lot from like the 10th-16th century and yet I'm fairly sure most "traditional christians" would still consider all of the different styles beautiful. Same with music. Sacral music started out as corales with no harmony whatsoever and the first person who wrote down the "rules" of classical music theory also said that they shouldn't be strictly followed. Even Bach didn't always follow the classical system of his era, which I'd say enriched his music rather than "making it liberal garbage" or whatever.
TLDR people don't know what objective beauty is and breaking previously established "rules" in art is something that tends to improve the artform and isn't always just done to break the rules or something.
A lot of the rules in music theory are made because that’s just what sounds good
If morality is objective then it as a concept is not created nor is it dictated by anyone
If it is then it is contingent upon the mind of the creator and hence it is subjective.
In Christianity morality is contingent upon the subjective opinion of the Christian God
@@ChiagoziemEze-Johnpaul While this wasn't the point I was trying to make, I do believe that "true morality" was created by God and it's not something that humans can dictate, but rather follow it. However, since we aren't God, we aren't always right about what's moral and what isn't so we can usually only get confirmation from the bible (or deliberately try to use it to make it align with our own beliefs which is wrong).
@@ChiagoziemEze-Johnpaul You seem to have a very shallow conception of God. I have heard it said that God is existence itself. Also that God is truth, wisdom, love, and more. This concept comes from the doctrine of divine simplicity (admittedly it's hard for me to wrap my mind around it). The point is, God is much more foundational to reality than what you are imagining.
@@ChiagoziemEze-Johnpaul "In Christianity morality is contingent upon the subjective opinion of the Christian God"
Ergh, nope. That's just your opinion on the matter. Christians have been debating Euthyphro dilemma for millennia at this point. There's no christian consensus on this.
I appreciate your concise arguments and agree with some your points (eg get married, start a family, spread the good word). I don’t agree per say with what’s suggested. The modern world that God has granted us time has beauty in it, new beauty. Yes there is ugliness, but it’s not the ugliest. The fact you and I can discuss the word of God in a text has beauty to it.
"You're so ugly you could be a modern art masterpiece!" - Sgt. Hartman, Full Metal Jacket
I'm surprised and encouraged by how large and based this channel manages to be.
I had a debate recently with a guy who called me a climate change denier. In my conversation I understood that he is a empiricist (which in practical terms means he needs a peer reviewed paper to call something objective). I understood that rationalism is much better because now I can know there is indeed objective beauty and morality without falling into the "muh experts conscences" or "objectivity doesn't exist"
You deny climate change? I bet you support A.I too.
@@Joachim-l7d ...I mentioned that he called me that because I am not. I am skeptical of the solutions and measurements that goverments took, because they did from minor to no improvements and affected the standard or living of everyone
I like that when you showed the map you showed the entire world.
In one of the comments here you answer that 'Common sense tells us that something is beautiful' in response to the obvious foundational question missing from this video: What's beauty? This would of course pit beauty against truth and goodness, as both of these things do not follow from the common sense of man in any way. I'm a mathematician and musician, and am all too aware that 'common sense' doesn't apply to mathematics. Often people conjecture things and, sometimes they are right, but sometimes they are way off. If God wanted us to consider beauty in the same way as goodness and truth, he would have laid out what is aesthetically beautiful and what is not. Yet he doesn't. Instead, we have Eccl 3:11: "He has made everything beautiful in its time..."
Good point
Strangely earlier today I was also pondering all this. I was going to say "Me and RZ must be on the same wavelength" until I realized we literally are on the same wavelength, we are both tuned in to the Holy Spirit.
Amen
Ouch! As a music lover and even a lover of some modern musuc, that metaphor of modern music as a nihilistic howl into the dark, hit pretty hard.
Yep. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Modern godless music is often a nihilistic howl into the dark. There is some modern music, like Eden's Bridge, that is good, and beautiful. They may have disbanded though.
I am a both a classical double bassist with the intent of pursuing a professional orchestra career and a devout Christian, surrendering to Christ and joining his army this year. Until the early 1900s, western classical music reflects the glory and beauty of God, but the 20th century saw an introduction to secular and objectively gross music (primarily as a result of the 12 tone technique which sought to abolish musical keys). This movement was done primarily with the intent of being different, and thus classical music began its decline, with many living composers continuing this trend. Now more than ever, two thousand years after the Resurrection of Christ, we need a rebirth of classical culture that aspires to glorify God. May Christ be with you all, and have a wonderful Advent and Christmas!
Man i remember watching your vid about starting the church map and know its huge good job
Great video. On point!!
the modern world is beyond dystopian
Hyperbole of course
It's Hell on earth
@@samfranklin659 now you are making me want to play the original Doom
And it doesn’t have to solely be Christianity. Just traditionalism in of itself since most of the people living upon this world before the year 2000 (or so it seems) was extremely traditional in everything they did, believed in and said no matter what religion they were a part of.
Another banger dropped
What sucks is that we end up being part of it through these influences and now its our own job to go back to our creator who can make us right
Christians need to get involved and start making things beautiful again. The Basilica in my hometown needs repairs and the diocese basically said they couldn't justify spending the money because of all the poverty in Canada right now. Like bro, that's the modern logic that would say your church shouldn't exist in the first place.
I remember once somebody on a Discord server posted a clay sculpture of a man strangled by vines, and I said I didn’t like it. Now I admit I was rude about it, but there reaction I got was really overblown. Everybody including the mods told me I was wrong for voicing my opinion. It was so depressing seeing my dissenting opinion smashed into the curb because I was expected to “encourage” the artist, but the piece the artist made looked like smashed play-doh and was getting undeserved praise for being anti-capitalist. This experience is a humbling reminder that what Zoomer is talking about in this video is very real and not hard to find.
Why are you on an anti capitalist server
It wasn’t an anti capitalist server. It was a fandom server with a liberal lean.
@@commercialchase8442 that's what they all say
@@commercialchase8442 Liberals of all kinds hate capitalism
Funny that the same people who say "Beauty is subjective" can't handle others saying "That's ugly".
i believe that beauty is objective and subjective. there are all things we like personally, i love pixel art and chiptune music, but we can objectively say that God's beautiful creation is objectively and perfectly beautiful
"Modern art is nothing but a nihilistic howl into the darkness."
Bars!
beauty IS objective not subjective , how my fellow lutherans say, IS means IS
Tell me about a time where you corrected your idea of beauty based on the objective standard.
Biologically yes and no, yes in the sense that beauty is associated with survival (little clumsy panda means he wont eat you, so he is cute, type of stuff).
And no because it follows the same process HOWEVER might come from trauma. Like the daughter that has daddy issues and now is attracted to questionable old guys.
It not progressive, it is cheap.
It is market forces.
There are good modernist building, Sydney Opera House comes to mind, but they aren't cheap.
you mean the giant dishwasher
Shh, you're not allowed to criticize capitalism here.
Market concerns have always existed, costs have always existed. The difference is there was a moral impetus to invest in beautiful buildings despite the greater costs.
@@msp423 Capitalism was not always the dominant system of economics, and was in fact not the dominant system present at the time of creation for much of the classical artwork that Zoomer would probably agree to be beautiful. Markets as they exist now are not a universal constant of human history.
Because the protestant church that has dominated the western cultural/religious landscape for the past 100 years is largely iconoclastic. Why create beautiful art/architecture if it has no spiritual benefit to me or it does not add to the quality of my worship and relationship with God?
Exactly!
@cro_lok2363 it continues to amaze me when people like RZ and gavin ortland will make videos whining about something wrong with the modern world and its culture, but they fail to leave out the fact that it was the protestant church, their church, that just stood idly by and let the world fall into its current state of decay. I'm just saying that maybe protestantisim isn't the salt and light everyone is saying it it.
"Beauty is the mirror of Truth." St. Thomas Aquinas
Former band director here. Honestly, I never enjoyed the neo-classic era of music, 12-tone, etc. It's objectively ugly.
Future band director here, music fell apart in the 20th century in my opinion, but then again I'm a hyper-baroque lover. I casually listen to gregorian chants and early polyphonic music...
If it weren't for A.I I would definitely have children of my own so I can (hopefully) raise them to be great virtuoso classical musicians and composers who would compose music in the authentic classical, European, musical tradition of like Mozart and Beethoven. I would probably go so far as to not expose them to any music older than Bruch (since he was more traditional in his approach to composition). But of course, due to A.I, I have put off the idea of having any kids at all, possibly indefinitely so. I don't want any future kid of mine to have to grow up in a world where A.I makes all the music, art and films, not them, due to fascism, capitalism and greed.
Thanks for mentioning this. I have some questions regarding this whole topic: I‘m a Christian and a musician and I enjoy 12-tone Metal (and am even considering writing and recording some myself). However this discussion is very intriguing: I wouldn‘t consider 12-tone music objectively beautiful (that‘s not why I‘m interested in it), same with Death Metal (which I also listen to and have also written myself). Now I wonder if this becomes a moral question: Ought I listen to beautiful music and write beautiful music and how do I distinguish between ugly and beautiful music? I‘m just interested in a discussion here and would appreciate if some people could weigh in on this, thanks
@@Joachim-l7dThat‘s exactly the reason to have kids, so that in a world where A.I. makes „art“, they - as humans - can make art and thereby bring something to the world. The reaction to the world being in a bad place should not be „I don‘t want my kids to live in a bad world“ but „I want my kids to make the world better“. Just as a perspective…
@@kukquakk4716 Yeah but one thing about A.I, especially music, that I fear the most is the idea that not only wouldn't you be able to make money off of it, which sucks bad enough as it is, but also the idea that it would get SO good that creating anything original, like a line of notes and melody, would be downright impossible because somewhere out there, an A.I music or song generator generated it up before you did.
Dude your videos and ministry are like small heaven coming down to this earth, and this is purely objective opinion.
Cuz culture aims anywhere but towards good.
The YT channel "war on beauty" has an excellent analysis on this. She's from a billionaire hollywood / oil tycoon family ✡️ who converted recently to catholicism
Thank you for adding Saint Ann Chapel Anglican Church in Palo Alto, California to your map. 🙏🏼
Note: Disable your VPN to properly load RZ church google map site.
"Goodness, truth, and beauty are objective!"
*proceeds to ground it in a subject
I think your video is really interesting. I would honestly like to talk with you on this topic.
You only included Protestant churches for traditional goodness, truth, and beauty? Why? We all know Catholic Churches are some of the most beautiful, yet you exclude them you shouldn’t. If it helps even a single person become Christian, you shouldn’t exclude them.
Beauty is an objective criteria they can’t refute no matter how many seething essays they write. It’s a layer of reality outside of their control, of course they hate it. One beautiful church refutes everything they want you to believe about Christianity.
Also keep in mind that beautiful things take time, wealth and effort to create. In a world where everyone is poor and oppressed by wealthy corporations, no one has the time or money to put in the effort to make beautiful things anymore. Everything is motivated by minimizing costs to make as much profit as possible.
That doesn't explain why communist architecture is so bad. No corporations, nothing but time, yet beauty never materializes.
@@Alias3141 No doubt communism also has its problems if that is the case. Are you wanting to turn this into a communism vs capitalism debate?
@potapotapotapotapotapota your speech is infused with communist undertones, namely in the supposition that everyone is poor and oppressed by wealthy corporations. That's Marxism 101.
So, no, I'm not looking to turn it into a debate. Just pointing out the fault in the subtext of your comment.
@potapotapotapotapotapota nope. Just pointing out that, if corporations are to blame, then a society lacking them wouldn't have the same issue, but it does.
@@Alias3141 I don't see where your logic comes from. All systems are corruptible because power imbalances exist in all systems. Those that have power use that power to influence and oppress others. No system can last as the old generation passes away and new generations are borne to replace them, and each new system may start off wonderfully but eventually becomes corrupted with an imbalance of power.
In the current system we are in, the corporations use their power to enslave the masses. And that oppression has destroyed our freedom to express ourselves through art and beauty.
“Modern art is nothing but a nihilist howl into the darkness” 🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥
Goodness and Truth are not subjective in the views of the Enlightenment. However, they are also not merely the purview of God.
There are a set of behaviors and choices which are viewed as universally good/beneficial. Some would argue God inspired them, but the point is, anyone using the application of logic and epistemology will arrive at these conclusions.
I.E. Goodness and Truth are so obviously valuable and useful, that it's an act of rebellion and sin essentially to deny the obvious and put self gratification above helping others.
That's the point of the Enlightenment.
To quote some of its proponents:
"God made us thinkers and rational beings, so that we would choose to follow the best path he set for us."
You are right about this. I have been thinking the same for some time.
I mean... if you love grey, it is beautiful !
If a man loves violence, is it beautiful?
That's not how this works
Thank you for not using American spelling
Many great scientists were Christian❤
Science shows the beauty of God in many complex ways❤
As a Dutch Reformed Bro I would say: Add a little bit more Biblical basis for your statements. Else it's just an ordinary culture war, that no one wants.
So you know how art and architecture is visual beauty and music is auditory beauty? Incense is basically scent beauty.
I believe in objective beauty but at the same we shouldn't say "objective beauty" when we just mean trad west styles.
Beautiful doesn't necessarily mean complicated and gaudy.
Simplicity can also be beautiful. Traditional Japanese architecture for example is quite minimalist but still objectively beautiful.
Anyone ever notice that ceiling fan resembles a halo? If you've ever seen an icon of Christ, you won't be able to unsee it.
RZ's an iconoclast, so he'll never know
I think the fictional Bridgehead City from Avatar: The Way of the Water is beautiful
I always understood modern art to be sometimes interesting thought experiments but they actually think they are supplanting truth of what is beautiful. It's kinda funny, but actually sad
As noted, a society's architecture often reflects what it values. I believe this is exactly what we see with modern Evangelicalism. Many of their churches are not necessarily ugly, although they're often not beautiful either, but they are convenient, comfortable, and innocuous. They resemble the shopping malls and movie theaters to which they often owe their architecture and design. Sadly, I think pragmatism is one of the ruling principles in many churches today. If we can build a church for cheaper, even if it's a big ugly brick box, and people find it convenient and comfortable, then that's what usually wins out in the end.
I don't think it's necessarily that modernity and beauty don't mix together. Like you said, society stopped caring about the heart and morality, so we've also stopped caring about beauty. We've embraced utilitarianism. All that matters is that it works. So, now our office buildings, churches, train terminals, and airports look ugly. This is literally built into most building codes today. But modernism CAN be beautiful. This pattern isn't repeated over all of the world. There are some seriously beautiful churches that are built in a modern style. Unfortunately, though, they're rare.
Amen from a Catholic brother
“Goodness is subjective uwu.”
“I disagree.”
“YOU’RE SO EVIL!”
Absolutely right, we need to revive the mainlines. Come on non-denominationals we have a society to re-beautify and us mainline protestants are a little thin.
I’m helping. Calvary chapel guy who’s looking into Lutheransim
@Thatoneguy-pu8ty Thank you. I am sure the Lutherans or whichever denomination you join will appreciate you.
Why don't non denominational churches beautify society. Imo the more true churches society has the better.
@@NOTREALCREEK Some do to be fair. The problem is many do not (their buildings are modernist) and non-denominational churches are just a further division of the Church universal that is unnecessary. It would be best if they joined institutional churches so that they can better collaborate. The biggest problem is Non-Denominational Churches are not non-denominational but just generally Baptists hence defeating their entire purpose. That being said I have been to a lovely Non-Denominational Church, still wish they would join the Canadian Baptist Federation. The problem is not a lack of churches but a lack of strong churches!
@@kierancabana2970 well said.
How then might we respond to beauty that is found in false religions? Certainly, Hindu temples Muslim Mosques, and Mormon temples cannot be seen in the same light as orthodox (historical) Christian cathedrals despite their ornate architecture and design?
I agree that we should have an appreciation of beauty, however I can't see it being directly linked to our spirituality.
Even when God chose david, I Samuel 16:7 says, "But the LORD said to Samuel, 'Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart'."
Also, in the New Testament, the Pharisees and Sadducees certainly represented a religious experience that was admirable on the outside, but "full of dead man's bones" on the inside.
Like I say, I can appreciate the beauty historical Christianity just like anyone else (I have visited and sang in some spectacular cathedrals, particularly in Europe. However, it's a bit dangerous to assume that everything that is beautiful is just a representation of God. The devil has some mighty good counterfeits. He even sold Eve on the beauty of the forbidden fruit.
exactly, and let’s not forget Jesus was NOT beautiful. when He was incarnate, the Bible states he had no beauty to attract or majesty. He was plain looking, so this whole point RZ is saying is ridiculous.
Yeah, seeing a Beautiful cathedral surrounded by glowing shop signs and grey apartment buildings is quite depressing.
The truth is God’s viewpoint on a matter
The modern world not liking beauty I can agree with that
That's actually a thing in modern gaming industry It's been a problem the past couple years Because modern game developers Don't Like making beautiful woman😅 And they make them unattractive and look more like men
And a Artist in DC comics Deals with these groups For the past couple years but He just ends up Drawing sexy female super heros Just to Mess with Them
It is not as clear cut as that, one of the most scathing criticisms of the post-modern art (in the wider meaning) is from Eric Hobsbawn, Jewish Marxist atheist historian. All it takes is a bit of intellectual honesty and willingness to call the "expert's" bluff
Just like goodness has some subjectivity to it, I think beauty does too. Yes, every human instinctively knows a sunset over the ocean is objectively beautiful. No doubt. But I don’t find all women beautiful. Even with inward beauty, some traits I detest and hate others find beautiful. So it’s tricky
Morality is not subjective at all. Morals come from the Law and character of God.
Mybad, I meant goodness. Not morality. It is good to give to the poor, but it’s not good to give to the poor if it puts your own family at risk financially. That kind of subjectivity
@@JudeStradtner There is most certainly a subjective element to morally. Consider the case of a man cutting another man open. Is that act moral? You can't tell without knowing the cutter's subjective knowledge and intentions.
“Beauty will save the world.”-Dostoevsky
Good analysis.
There is objective beauty.
But we don't always know it. Just like we don't always know the truth, like we don't always know what is good.
But we can feel it. We can feel that something it true, that something is good, and that something is beautiful.
It is in our instinct no matter how many modernists lie about it.
As an April Fool’s joke I want a video to open with, “Hey guys, I’m NOT Redeemed Zoomer”
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder IS an old idea. I read it in Aesop's Fables. It's hard to be objective about religion when it is constantly being influenced by culture. It's a struggle and it seems we all wear different cultural lenses.
Ok then what defines beauty
@NOTREALCREEK what's your idea? I'm not claiming the saying is a definition. It's a fable, from where you make your own informed decision.
@@katiepickett3518 Yes, but if beauty is not in the eye of the beholder, then what is it.
If you are converting for aesthetics then I pray for your soul
I still personally think art and artistic expression is wholly subjective and not objective. But is amazingly beautiful when it embraces and embellishes scripture and worship.
Are Churches ugly because nobody likes beauty, or is more likely they are ugly because many new churches, especially non-mainline ones, don't have the resources but build a new beautiful church? I think more conservative branches feel conservative teaching is more important, and cost effective than a beautiful church, and not that they do not like a pretty church. Do we help the poor with food drives and missions or do we make the church pretty? All 3 would be ideal but the reality is the more you add to beauty the less resources are left for helping and spreading the gospel and growing the church.
i would say the beauty of the church is the most important, a beautiful church draw people to God and will help the conversions of thousands way more than helping people could
@@SimonNissen94I’m all for beautiful churches, but I massively disagree with you.
The Church feeding the poor, caring for the sick, and clothing the naked will advance the kingdom of God much further than having a pretty building.
Developing a distinctive Biblical esthetic goes along with a Biblical epistemology and metaphysic. But synthesizing an Egyptian worldview (Exodus 32), Aristotelean worldview (Thomas Aquinas) or postmodern worldview (Friedrich Nietzsche) is rejection of the distinctive Biblical worldview .
I saw this and decided it's time to clean up my desk.
Mostly agree, but not all art has to be beautiful. Art is used to express, and sometimes you want to express displeasant emotions or experiences; though, I agree that, as Christians, art as a whole should point to God. Sometimes, by adding dissonance, beautiful intervals sound even better.
It doesnt make sense to say that a classical view on beauty must be the christian just because it is classical. Christianity is about Lord Jesus not about classical philosophy
Bro add all csi Church in your map csi(church of south india) is a union of four mainline protestants churches (Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist, Congregationalists) and in southern part of india there are more csi churches
7:15 I disagree here. The real way to say this is that some modern art is anti-beauty, but some is not. I make modern art all the time, and the idea is the play with what the Creator left us, colors and shapes, to make something interesting. For example, very colorful abstract art can be done well because it can represent a basic outline of what God has made (i.e. A river), but do it in a way that challenges exactly how the brain works, such as making it blue, violet, and red in a shifting gradient. It's not ugly, but it doesn't fit the stereotype of beauty you propose. Some beauty is subjective, some is not. We are all wired differently by God to see the world uniquely.
Also, I say this: The idea of beauty is also limited by skill at the time. This is why pre-Renaissance art is usually grotesque or uncanny. It was beautiful at the time, but now it's not. It takes true skill to convey beauty, and not everyone has it, despite the coddling of society. I make abstract art, EDM, emo rap, & black metal. It's not for everyone, but it helps those who need it. As I've said many times before, "To truly understand the light we must first suffer through its absence".
Redeemed Zoomer face reveal dub? Bro's gonna have simps☠️☠️
he's shown his face on video for like a year and a half by this point lmao
@panzerinvictus Dang☠️ I missed that☠️☠️
@@MordexWilsonHe also has a wife now
@@IbelieveinGod483 Bro what??☠️
@@MordexWilson He got married a while back
2+2 is so oppressive, what do you MEAN there’s a finite number of correct answers??
@@littlefishbigmountain Since there is an infinite number of questions with correct answers, there is in fact an infinite number of correct answers.
That banana taped on a wall is objectively NOT an art