Funny part is, Kaizo Ironmon wasn't created for "streamers." It was created by and for one streamer, Pie himself. He openly stated his intentions of making it random as all hell and near impossible to win without great luck, and didn't expect many to play it, let alone Kaizo to become the "default" Ironmon ruleset that people play.
What is further funny is how its treated more than that, even by Pie himself. You'll see the most defeated reactions over something that is simply easy to understand results of gambling. No finances lost, just time lost. It can be funny how the game can seemingly craft a fated ending to the run, but it gets to the point where you wonder if that point is forgotten (especially when "skill" is argued into the mix) from time to time and it leaves some fans thinking that the whole thing is something more than that.
Well yeah, It's why some of my favorite challenge runners say "I could have renamed this challenge "How long will it take" because there is no skill" I think a great thing to do as a challenge runner is say "this was hard because I needed the skill to dodge, to know when to take fights and when to walk away. or to say "this was only hard because I had to get a 1 in 100k chance. If i was lucky sooner, I'd have won sooner" To me, I'd argue a skilled challenge runner can admit when something is luck, or something is skill.
Kaizo ironmon is basically just an excuse to have a just chatting stream, with a memeable clip generator in the form of rage game, but using a fan favourite franchise, pokemon! Its fun to watch/chill with
It was literally fun for the person who initially made it because it was a fun thing for them and their community as a streamer. The fact that it’s so widely adopted and treated as some end all be all sorta soured that sentiment
How dare people like and enjoy things i dont? They are obviously wrong because I am the greatest person in the history of humankind, and only my opinion matters on any subject.
its not the hardest challenge in pokemon. the real hardest challenge is my new rom hack where every trainer has level 100 legendaries and you can only find wild magikarp which can't evolve.
Naaaa I'd win, also is this a joke or have you actually done this, cause I have 2 testies and thumbs and atleast a singular braincell plus 2 days off work to atleast try, hook me up bb
Kaizo Ironmon is an overglorified roguelike mode that indeed can be fun, and as a huge fan of the genre it truly has some interesting moments. However, the biggest downfall of Kaizo Ironmon specifically is that unlike MANY roguelike games or modes, everything is truly randomized. There is not a single reliable point or spot that you can say "I can use this as a knowledge" or anything that truly tests your skill.
Hell, Pokerogue is a literal Pokémon roguelike and it gives you a ton of options in customizing your team while still adding the randomness of item drops and Pokémon encountered
@@Zorothegallade-rpg That and Emerald Rogue are both fantastic and good examples of what i was talking about, and much more challenging/skillful than Kaizo Ironmon. Pokerouge is even more so.
This challenge perfectly embodies how I played pokemon as a child - mash the strong move with the strong 'mon, lose and come back without learning a damn thing lol
12:01 - it is worth mentioning that even with low odds, with the hundreds of opposing Pokémon you face, the compounding 214/215 chance starts to become increasingly unlikely, heck even after just 200 Pokémon of level 30+, the chance you *won’t* see a shedinja is ~40%. After 300 enemy Pokémon that falls to ~25%. As a reminder, there’s ~100 Pokémon before you complete Cerulean+Nugget Bridge+Route 25. The numbers pile up quickly. Even with sub 30 estimates for all of them, that’s a ~78% chance you don’t see a Shedinja before then, so 1/5 runs will. Planning for it is necessary. This isn’t a criticism of the video, if anything it’s a reminder that the RNG is even more punishing.
That's totally fair and a good point to bring up, but the point of the section wasn't supposed to be a statistical analysis of how likely or unlikely running into a Shedinja is during a run, but rather the appropriate amount of resources dedicated to one should you. Like I stated in the video, the idea isn't to have NO plan, but rather plan accordingly by buying tons of Pokeballs to PP stall it out instead of dedicating an entire move slot for it. The real threat would be running into one during an early game boss fight when resources are at their most limited, so I think the 1/386 chance is the more appropriate number to look at since I'm less worried about running into one on some random underleved trainer with two Pokémon to their name.
@@CaptainKiddYT Entirely fair, hence why I tried to make sure the comment didn’t come off as a criticism, as I do agree with the spirit of it, and why I added the section calculating the rough odds of seeing/not seeing one early game, roughly ~22/78 odds pre-beating Misty, also why one of my other comments added another RNG example, that being the reason that nobody does a speedrun of XD Gale of Darkness because there’s no way to avoid a ~50% game over in the endgame. Skillfully dodge that coin flip eh? I do think that largely the idea of Kaizo as “the hardest challenge” is either clickbait or needs a modifier of “the most grueling endurance ‘challenge’ ”.
For a game to be difficult there has to be enough control for you to make errors, for you to be able to look back and go 'Oh, this is how I could improve!' this is like saying seeing your favorite character die in a movie is something you could have overcome, despite you having no control over that
I do like the rules on Dungeons/Caves, wild Pokémon grinding, and only being allowed to use heal items in battle. Honestly, just those rules on top of a Nuzlocke would be sick and it might even be actually fun!
@@Eighty8percent I dont fully agree or disagree with Captain Kidd but the fact that you talk about difficulty yet cant even differentiate Wartortle and Squirtle does not help your case at all
@@Eighty8percent if you call something's hard because it takes many attempts, and the reason why you lose is because you don't have a good RNG then you might as well call shiny hunting is harder than nuzlocke
@@Eighty8percentive also tried both, cant say the kaizo ironmon was exactly much of a challenge compared to fucking run&bun. anyone who has done or grinded both will tell you that.
ironmon was created as a fun challenge for the streamer who created it. it was never intended to be a strict thing that everyone had to follow and compete in. it was just for one streamer and their community, hence the mom rule
Kaizo Mario is known for allowing some of the most insane clips and shows of skill in a platformer. Kaizo Ironmon takes almost all of the skill away. Insane.
Personally I really like watching Kaizo Ironmon content, but playing it myself? Absolutely not. But then, the same applies to hardcore nuzlockes, so I guess that makes me a boring casual player
I'm in the same boat- and that's fine! Games are meant to be enjoyed, and playing them to unwind over adding yet more stress to your day is one of the best things about them.
A lot more entertaining than going on a page to see the gym leader line up and run some calcs to manipulate AI behaviour according to a flow chart. Understanding that a game isn't just about beating it and the unknown and rng can screw you at anytime can be frustrating and rewarding, but it will be entertaining. I love puzzle solving and manip strats, but every "professional" nuzlocke is the most boring thing. Freezai is a great players, but watching any of his nuzlocke is pointless.
you're not a boring casual player, you just aren't a content creator, the reality is nobody would play this trash without streaming it or making a video about it because it was made to be content bait and wasn't designed with any real thought for how beatable it could be, which makes for great content because the "epic hype moment" can happen at any point, and to be clear, I have no issue with this, sometimes creators just want easy content and kaizo ironmon is exactly that
@@MrKoutsuko I like a good “fuck it, we ball” type of gameplay too, but I can’t deny that I’ve myself looked up trainer lineups and level up movesets on casual runs simply because at the end of the day yeah, I want to win in the most proficient way I can rather than go in with little to no strategy and completely botching an otherwise easily obtainable win without being over prepared. Case and point, I just beat HeartGold vanilla for the first time with an underleveled team. I had the goal in mind to win rather than sit through another hour of grinding for an easier time. So yeah, I looked up Lance’s team and quick reset until I got the shot I was looking for. Is that really a bad thing?
@@MrKoutsuko no fr its like where is the fun 😭 i respect the hustle and that its fun for them but i don get the appeal because why bother with a game you can barely even play
4:53 Kidd: _"Your best hope of winning is to get a Pokemon with either good typing or high stats, like this Kingdra I'm showing off as example."_ Me who is legitimately more than halfway through a Kaizo attempt with a Kingdra: *"Oh hey, it's me"*
I NEVER understood the appeal of Kaizo Ironmon. I love Nuzlockes and I enjoy randomizers sometimes, but the restrictions and heavy RNG just seems way too frustrating.
Right. Nuzlockes and Randomizers, even hardcore and difficult ones like Emerald Kaizo are still fun because there is a challenge, but its still definitely beatable with proper time, strategy and skill, which is why they're so satisfying to watch and for people to play, you feel genuinely accomplished when you win because you truly earned it. Ironmon just throws in too many variables that turns it into an unfun slog with no skill, just luck and RNG, which is never a very fun experience.
@@NewCoffeePlus Never said it was for me. I was just explaining why I don't like it. If someone else likes it and wants to play it, more power to them.
@@lovelylavenderrNuzlocke’s are way easier to beat than Kaizo. It’s that simple. The only way to make the game harder is to change the game to something else. Pokémon is just to easy any other way.
@@lovelylavenderr Which is definitely why its made for his stream. A way to endlessly grind content out over a game (or more) to stretch thousands of hours. Just beware of the Kaizo police. ;)
So, I'm a member of the Ironmon creator's Twitch community. Have been for longer than I've watched stuff that you, pChal, Alpharad, and the like put out. I think this "hardest" message came more from clickbait and from some parts of the community that formed around the challenge than from Pie. He's always admitted he intended this to be an unfair challenge designed to take a stupid amount of time to beat. To make stream value. And a lot of people, myself included, enjoy that to some degree. Some of them perhaps a bit too much. I'm honestly tired of this constant need to compare Nuzlockes and Ironmon. Let people play these games the way they want to. Anything less feels like gatekeeping. Because when it comes to either challenge, it's the creator's personality and not the challenge itself that'll get me to watch. I like watching Pie attempt Ironmon because of his personality, despite knowing he has some of the worst luck of anyone out there and will rarely get on a run. Or he'll run absolute garbage 'mons and manage to get them decently far. I don't get the same enjoyment of Ironmon from all streamers. With some creators, I don't watch unless it's clear they're in late game. Nuzlockes are in a similar boat for me, *especially* the hardcore ones. I used to eat up Nuzlocke playthroughs of ROM hacks and fan games during their UA-cam heyday in the early to mid 2010s. And then I gravitated to Twitch and I became completely uninterested in full Nuzlocke playthroughs. The only thing that brought me back to them was *scripted* content back on UA-cam. I've tried to watch Nuzlocke streams, but I just can't get into them. Especially in the age of the hardcore Nuzlocke where team planning can take ages and, at least from my perspective, isn't that interesting to watch. Like, yes, it's nice to hear the player's thought process and the order of operation they're going through, but it doesn't take long for it to all start to blend together for me. Maybe it's because so much of my job involves reading and drafting reports that Nuzlocke streams make me feel like I'm at work again. Or maybe I just don't enjoy Pokémon much as a livestream game. No idea. I don't know if you'll read this, but figured I'd offer my ramblings anyway. tl;dr: Stop comparing. Its the personalities that make challenge runs enjoyable... or not.
Nuzlocking nowdays is soulless. The "harder" the challenge, more people will just check up the enemy trainer lineup, run calcs before battle to manip the AI accordingly to a flow chart. Then they will manip rules like species clauses to choose what they want to pick, skip grind with candies because "it's just boring and time consuming" completely ignoring the risks that come with negligence and rng that can make them lose a pokemon while grinding and so on. A nuzlocke is pointless if it isn't a blind run or a randomizer. There's fun in puzzle solving and manip strats, but the whole point of a nuzlocke goes against that.
@mrkoutsuko you do realize most nuzlocke content nowadays is in romhacks that require that and make the game less tedious. Their are content creators that do different type nuzlocke content. So watch that type of content. Also the fact that you only believe a nuzlocke can only be truly done if its a blind run that can only happen on randomized runs or first times. Is really hyperbolic.
I think that nuzlockes that are live usually have a different difficulty threshold to be fun from a regular challenge for sure. The run can be a bit easier with the caveat that the runner doesn't constantly check stats and such and end up being a fun time, the sort of old school nuzlockes people used to post as lets plays before the 'scripted resurgence' of the challenge happened on UA-cam. The gist is that as a viewer, I want to see someone go in with a plan and see how it turns out (hopefully with some level of uncertainty about it's success otherwise it just becomes boring). I don't want to *wait through* the person making the plan in real time, and if I *do* wait I want them to be time limited or them to skip that wait for me. The 'calculated' nuzlockes are more fun to strategize and explain for a scripted run in many cases I think, but at the same time the more 'spontaneous' nuzlockes feel much more fun in-the-moment. Kaizo Ironmon attempts to lean completely on the 'spontaneous' way too much, whereas 'calculated' nuzlockes lean completely on the opposite end. Older nuzlockes lie somewhere in between, but unfortunately there isn't an unlimited amount of new playthroughs of a Pokémon game one can have and even if there was, at some point you get enough mastery that it just doesn't have that middle ground as much anymore without extra rulesets. And once you play enough of those and truly master the game, you can end up with all runs either being completely calculated or completely RNG with not much in between
Been looking forward to this since hearing you talk about it!! I gotta agree with pretty much all your points about it being essentially shiny hunting for the perfect run. I think it still has a purpose of telling a good story with the crazy number of attempts it takes, and the story practically writes itself in the right storyteller's hands when a perfect counter suddenly appears at any point in the game, but the run's purpose should never be to be seen as the "hardest" challenge or the ultimate test of any skill other than patience with how truly random it is Looking forward to seeing what that Aerodactyl pulled off!!
It’s only hard because of rng everything being random just makes it unpredictable and the unpredictably nature is what makes it hard. But like others have said it’s an easy challenge to do but hard to stay focused if you aren’t one to have patience
It's also hard because basically the rules invalidate your run if you get TOO lucky. It's like playing Blackjack but you automatically lose if you draw 19 or higher.
kaizo ironmon is definitely an interesting content machine with the sheer amount of RNG, imo the most fun parts about this challenge really are, when you have to manage your ressources, during challenging battles, which unfortunately are only a small percentage of overall gameplay.
Kaizo Ironmon has the same vibes as "Beat Elden Ring with random weapons, bosses are randomly swapped around, and also you must let every enemy hit you once for every time you hit them". Remove all skill except being able to capitalize on whatever lucky break you get.
I think the worst thing is how you could have the best mon and then you meet a random sturdy perish song mon on a trainer with 5 mons and you simply die. Literally nothing you could've ever done. Not like you can start all battles with disable perish song and expect to win anything
if anyone wants a fangame that sort of hits that dungeon crawling resource management vibe, give pokemon remenisence a try. its one of my favorite fan games ever with a roguelike inspired gameplay loop and it has a really cool story with built in speed up if youd rather ignore it
It kinda baffles me that of all the ridiculous rules in this thing, a level cap isn't one of them when that's almost always used as an optional rule in Nuzlockes.
How is that baffling? A level cap is implied by the fact you cannot farm wild pokemon for experience. There are a finite number of trainers, after all.
@ashleybricco4107 you... did see how much higher leveled than literally everyone else Kidd was, right? That was him fighting all the trainers he could because there was no restrictions on his level cap.
@@ScootsLounge Yes but because there’s a finite amount of trainers, there’s still a level cap. You can’t get higher level after you’ve defeated every trainer. It is true that you can get pretty far ahead of the opponents in some games like fire red, though this depends on the game. In black and white 2 for example the gap is much lower. Also, even in fire red the gap becomes much smaller in the endgame.
@@ScootsLounge having no level cap implies you can farm levels until you’re max level, which you can’t. I don’t care if there’s technically no level cap directly written in the rules.
My biggest problem with Kaizo Ironmon is just how arbitrary some of the rules are... they're beyond arbitrary, seemingly designed to increase the attempt counter by a couple hundred (or as few as tens of attempts) on a challenge that likely will tick into the thousands already. Like why bother with the stupid favourites rule and having to select your starter at random? The chance that there is a legal pokemon that can go all the way out of the 3 in the beginning is already extroadinarily low. Why aren't you able to teach TMs you find? There's such an astromomically low chance you find one that's useful to begin with and if you have the same 50% chance of it being teachable in the rom I really don't see this being such a massive advantage as to completely negate the challenge. Likewise if all healing moves are banned then remove them from the game (at least as an option for the player, still have them in the movepool for trainer pokemon); is removing the small chance of a dead learn slot really going to make the challenge *that* much easier? I feel like there's a fun(?) little RNG roguelike challenge with a ruleset that makes sense after some tweaking.
Kinda ironic that in the featured run, it was Bruno who was the villain and run-ender, since he’s pretty much regarded as the weakest Elite 4 member of all time, lol.
I enjoy randomized nuzlockes. But only when it's just the encounters and items that are random (and abilities but some might disagree there). Having random types and bst has just never been as fun since it can be either really bs or just boring.
This video puts into words what I've felt about Kaizo runs for a while now. I've always felt that a Nuzlock with harder rules would be much more difficult than this slot machine of a mode.
Not finished with it yet, but this is probably my favorite video of yours BY FAR. You kisted everything I had a problem with in Kaizou Ironmon and the commentary was great as usual! Stand proud, your video is dinner worthy.
I've seen plenty of people who have Kaizo Ironmon videos with the typical clickbait "Hardest Pokemon Challenge" in their title, but none of them have been able to explain to me why they call Kaizo Ironmon the hardest challenge when it is the 2nd hardest challenge listed on the rules page for all Ironmon challenges.
I really dislike the ironmon "challange" as well because it really is just a weird slot machine. And its really sad imo that it kinda survived longer and somehow could carry on its hype over PokeRouge and Emerald Rouge because these are actually good rogue likes unlike Ironmon (which through all the randomization has kinda become one) and it most certainly didn't earn the right to have putten Kaizo at the beginning of its title.
I agree that challenges should be overcome with skill and learning from past attempts. This is like throwing a bunch of various dice and hoping the dice like you and give you good luck
Well-crafted ROM-hacks like Garbage Green are much better examples of true Pokemon challenges. They are carefully crafted puzzle boxes that require a solid strategy to even have a chance of survival. Difficult game design, true challenge, real bragging rights.
I do enjoy randomized stuff because I think it's a very different kind of challenge, one a bit more luck based true, but one that has a lot of interesting potential for interesting interactions and moments, but ironman kaizo strips away even that game knowledge of knowing all about niche abilities and pokemon and what they can do which is sad
My playthrough of alteRed hit some of those notes. I had no idea what these fakemon were: not their move pools nor stats nor abilities nor typing. So I found caught a bunch of stuff, chose something promising and pressed A through most of the game. It was a really cool experience, but I didn't learn anything, and not many parts were memorable.
Randomiser mods are good for one thing and one thing only- For personality driven youtubers to make us laugh with their hilarious reactions to the whacky hijinks that ensue. But as far as being a serious "challenge"? I would rather watch paint dry tbh, it's just an exercise in frustration for everyone involved and there is zero skill or knowledge involved. If I wanted that I would ask a toddler to tell me how to fix a truck, at least then there's a chance it might be cute or funny, and if it isn't I can give them back to their parents.
@@ashleybricco4107 my apologies for not adding a variety of silly emojies to what I thought would clearly read as a silly, tongue in cheek little comment. My bad.
Like, don't get me wrong, as a viewer it IS my opinion, but it was all meant in good fun, obviously some people must enjoy it or people wouldn't keep making the videos.
Yeah, this is why I’m not going to try Kaizo Ironmon. If all I have to do to win is get lucky, it’s not really a challenge, is it? A real challenge should test my skill, not just my luck.
So I love this video not because I think the opinion is right or wrong, but because it adds context and a dissenting opinion that I think will hopefully breed the next challenge type. Also kudos on the negative evaluation being the perfect juxtaposition to the fact that despite disliking it, you did challenges and clearly had some attachment to P2. You discussed the flaws while exhibiting the strengths of Kaizo Ironman and that is pretty awesome. Good job Kidd!
I used to watch Patterrz Kaizo Ironmon runs and as a viewer what I liked about it the most was the chat interactions that he and some other streamers would do. It would be all around a fun watch... Though yea, RNG doesn't make a game difficult
For me, the Kaizo Ironmon and Super Kaizo Ironmon (the even 'harder' cousin') challeng tickle a specific part of my Pokemon heart that Nuzlocks and similar challenges doesn't satisfy anymore. It's probably because Nuzlocks and similar challenges have been played to death, and me not liking the current meta of calcs and insane difficult rom hacks that are about as much about RNG encounters as Kaizo Ironmon but without the fast pace. I enjoy just turning my head off and playing a few seeds while watching UA-cam. And I enjoy Kaizo Ironmon streams simply because its Just Chatting with an interesting background action and fun streamers. But yeah, it isn't neccessarily the 'hardest' challenge (it has been titles that after it gained traction and people wanted more cloud), but its different, and thats what I seek in Pokemon nowaday.
This video is what i felt when i first looked at the rules and then when i actually did some runs and i never made it out of Viridian forest in like 10-15 attempts
I believe that kaizo ironmon is a very difficult challenge. It is difficult because it tests your perseverance. Some challenges like nuzlockes test your ability in the game but ironmon tests abilities outside of the game
This challenge would be much more interesting and "balanced" if there was a set range on the BST Pokémon can be randomized into. Something like plus or minus 10% of their original BST. So for instance a Pidgey (251 BST) could turn into a Diglett (265) or a Zubat (245) but not a Snorlax (540). Heck, adjust it towards higher BSTs for trainers that are supposed to be more challenging like the Gym leaders, but at least make it a tiny bit more consistent.
Bro I saw the 10,000 resets at the beginning and I knew it had to be chillin 😂 poor guy has made it to the elite 4 so many times. Love the streams though
While I am doing my own nuzlocke, I won’t be doing the Kaizo Ironman any time soon. For starters, I don’t have the rom for it. Secondly, I’d prefer to keep what’s left of my sanity and leave it to those that might have an inkling of what to do.
I feel like the concept has potential. Running through a Pokemon game with one Pokemon WOULD be a difficult task. What single Pokemon would be the best for running through the whole game? How do you manage your limited overworld items to this end? Running with a single Pokemon, they’ll become higher level right away, so increasing the levels of core trainers would help keep the difficulty curves. But, they just completely trash it by randomizing everything. Randomizing starters makes sense, as otherwise your pickings for the attempt are always limited. But randomizing items? Moves?! STATS?! It’s just a glorified slot machine, sadly. Nothing to learn, just throwing yourself at the wall until you stick. It’s fun to watch the recap stream highlights, but it isn’t challenging. I just wanta see Ironmon, but in a game like EK, and without all the randomness. Maybe not Emerald Kaizo specifically, that one is maybe too difficult, but a game where teams have better coverage. That way a single Pokemon can’t just sweep the whole gym, and needs to pull out some strategy to succeed. There’s the bones for a genuine challenge here, we just need someone to really grasp it
One Pokémon is where the challenge falls apart. There is room for strategy in Pokémon, but when your pool of available options shrinks from 24 moves (4 moves x 6 Pokémon) to 4 moves with zero opportunity cost besides the PP spent, youv'e already stripped a lot of the potential for expression of skill in this game. You're playing a game of chess with just a king and a queen, a solved game.
Thank you! Kaizo Ironmon is, like you said, more a test of patience and eventually getting the correct RNG string to be able to click your buttons to OHKO the enemy team and get a minmaxed stat spread without any of the bans mentioned in the video (and this video doesn't even come close to 1/10th of the total restrictions). I'm 90% sure it's just supposed to be an endless grind for streamers, especially streamers that don't know a lot about Pokemon besides type matchups and big base power button with enough pp do a lot of damage. It's a completely different experience to a nuzlocke, or especially a nuzlocke in a game like run and bun, which is all knowledge and optimization and marathoning 500+ fights while playing perfectly the whole time, as one mistake can snowball out of control. But in those games, when you lose a mon, it is (usually) your fault, as your prep might've been suboptimal or you made some mistakes. The challenge and the relief of winning is much more worth it (IN MY OPINION) because the skill required and the amount of skill expression that can be, well, expressed is tantamount to winning a run, which are human elements that are within our control as players. You bring up a super good point with the switch AI. In games like Emerald Kaizo, Run and Bun, even easier nuzlockes like Renegade Platinum, an understanding of the Switch in AI is essential for a victory, which brings in a knowledge gap and skill expression by which you can predamage to bait out pokemon, or even chain kill in some of the harder games. In Kaizo Ironmon, however, a lot of Kaizo Ironmon players don't even know how the switch AI works (I've even seen speedrun explanation videos flat out get this wrong) because you don't need to know it! You can't switch, so baiting is not really a thing, and you don't know what is coming up, so there would not even be a point if you could. Great video! It's quite annoying as a nuzlocker, though a fairly average one, to be bombarded with people saying "oh you just can't beat Kaizo Ironmon that's why you think it sucks" and the general culture around Kaizo Ironmon can be quite toxic at times, presumably because it invites a bunch of casuals who watch streamers have high attempt counters every day and don't actually do any of these runs themselves.
Here is a Pokémon challenge. I personally like to call it the death Road challenge rule number one you’re only allowed to use moves. They are the same type as your Pokémon rule number two. During gym battles, you’re only allowed to use one Pokémon elite four fights you’re allowed to use three rule number three during gym battles and elite four fights you aren’t allowed to use super effective moves rule number four you aren’t allowed to damaging moves during a wild Pokémon encounter using status moves is fine
I’ve never really liked RNG dependent ‘challenges’. Like said in the video, they just challenge your patience, not your actual ability to play the game. I feel bad for people who are genuinely mislead by Kauai Ironmon and believe the attempt counter and long ruleset mean it’s a difficult ‘challenge’.
You can throw as many arbitrary rules into a challenge as you want and say it's the hardest Pokèmon challenge, but if it's not really fun to play, what's the point?
I think a lot of this stems from people misunderstanding what "Kaizo" games actually are. Kaizo games aren't just extremely difficult, they're actively unfair. They're the gaming equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall and seeing which one breaks first and if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing in any given situation then the wall's gonna win. Kaizo Ironmon takes this to an even higher level due to the randomness meaning the player themselves barely know what they're doing and have to optimize the few variables they can control as much as possible. Don't put people down for not completing the challenge, give them props for even giving it a crack and making progress
regarding shiny hunting, i have heard it referred to as hard/difficult tbh, especially when its a longer or more skill dependent hunt (ie rare pokemon in lets go who have unusual movement patterns or flee quickly, rare pokemon in general, pokemon go shiny hunting, marked shinies etc), especially compared to easier hunts like a route 1 rattata in lets go. theres a test of determination going on as well. its usually said when a hunt is going to be a particularly long grind as well- because its hard on your personal determination and patience.
I was watching FlygonHG's soul silver flying type only nuzlocke the other day and learned, during his fight against Karen's Double Team spamming Umbreon, that Foresight renders evasion boosts useless. It's such a niche interaction that would almost never come into play unless you're doing something like a monotype hardcore Nuzlocke. The format Pokemon randomizers seem most fun for me is something like PokeRogue that at least offers a decent number of resources for a player to use and keeps enough consistency where strategy and planning are required. It doesn't matter how skilled a player is if they have virtually zero resources at their disposal. At that point, like you pointed out, it's just luck.
Kaizo ironmon feels like a community outsourced project to find all the different seeds of "winnable" versions of this challenge. Surely there's something we can gain to make something interesting from all this head bashing people do
if you want an example of random done good, id suggest u check out emerald rogue! even though a lot of it is random (as its a roguelike), i think theres a lot of skill in it still (especially because the pokemon themselves dont have their attributes randomized)
Funny, I only really heard about Kaizo Ironmon through 4chan threads, but that was a while ago. I thought this was going to be an ironmon run of something like Kaizo Emerald Man, I should boot up Kaizo Emerald again.
the number at 3:48 wasn't my reset counter, it was how much psychic damage i've cumulatively taken
TRUE
Damn, what's your HP Pool?
@@ChilaAuroraVT recover and the craziest focus band hax of all time
@@Eni.Starfall"BEST ITEM IN THE GAME"
- Astroid Videos
Sure it was… Good luck though.
kaizo ironmon is the pokemon version of "90% of gamblers quit before they win big"
ah yes, keep gambling king💪
What about the game corner?
@@KeiferSchiilernot real, Pokemon said so
Winners never quit, and quitters never win. But what about people who never win yet refuse to quit?
@@EchiewelThey’re just losers
Funny part is, Kaizo Ironmon wasn't created for "streamers." It was created by and for one streamer, Pie himself. He openly stated his intentions of making it random as all hell and near impossible to win without great luck, and didn't expect many to play it, let alone Kaizo to become the "default" Ironmon ruleset that people play.
Oh really?
Now it's the definition of SKILL so if you dont spend hours suffering based on your luck you are a shitheel that cant argue with me.
What is further funny is how its treated more than that, even by Pie himself. You'll see the most defeated reactions over something that is simply easy to understand results of gambling. No finances lost, just time lost. It can be funny how the game can seemingly craft a fated ending to the run, but it gets to the point where you wonder if that point is forgotten (especially when "skill" is argued into the mix) from time to time and it leaves some fans thinking that the whole thing is something more than that.
People conflate “tedious” with “difficult” and many challenger runners have made careers convincing us that they are the same
Well yeah, It's why some of my favorite challenge runners say "I could have renamed this challenge "How long will it take" because there is no skill" I think a great thing to do as a challenge runner is say "this was hard because I needed the skill to dodge, to know when to take fights and when to walk away. or to say "this was only hard because I had to get a 1 in 100k chance. If i was lucky sooner, I'd have won sooner"
To me, I'd argue a skilled challenge runner can admit when something is luck, or something is skill.
Kaizo ironmon is basically just an excuse to have a just chatting stream, with a memeable clip generator in the form of rage game, but using a fan favourite franchise, pokemon!
Its fun to watch/chill with
It is fr fr
Someone finally gets it.
@@Eighty8percent He said it a few times in the vid?
If you like Kaizo Ironmon, you might like the casino. It's a real tough challenge that loads of people love.
Win big or lose your life savings and sanity! (If you win big you might still lose your life savings and sanity)
Not if you know the roulette strats
"What exactly _is_ Kaizo Ironmon?" Not fun. That's what it is. Not fun. This is one of the things they do to people in Hellraiser's Labyrinth.
It was literally fun for the person who initially made it because it was a fun thing for them and their community as a streamer. The fact that it’s so widely adopted and treated as some end all be all sorta soured that sentiment
sounds like a skill issue
Arceus wept.
How dare people like and enjoy things i dont?
They are obviously wrong because I am the greatest person in the history of humankind, and only my opinion matters on any subject.
@@HaloNeInTheDark27The creator of Kaizo Ironmon would agree with the guy you're mad at. Please find something less embarrassing to get so upset over.
06:48 sturdy being useless is hilarious for this channel
Remember, this is Gen 3 sturdy. Which means it’s literally useless
@@JuliaJulia-vh4xc yes, I am aware, the entire point of the joke and the infamous clip
its not the hardest challenge in pokemon. the real hardest challenge is my new rom hack where every trainer has level 100 legendaries and you can only find wild magikarp which can't evolve.
Naaaa I'd win, also is this a joke or have you actually done this, cause I have 2 testies and thumbs and atleast a singular braincell plus 2 days off work to atleast try, hook me up bb
Would be a nice april fool challenge idea ngl
EK + Garbage Green
I could beat it
Problem with that is it's a one trick challenge, if someone becomes sweaty enough, they could beat it
Kaizo Ironmon is an overglorified roguelike mode that indeed can be fun, and as a huge fan of the genre it truly has some interesting moments. However, the biggest downfall of Kaizo Ironmon specifically is that unlike MANY roguelike games or modes, everything is truly randomized. There is not a single reliable point or spot that you can say "I can use this as a knowledge" or anything that truly tests your skill.
Hell, Pokerogue is a literal Pokémon roguelike and it gives you a ton of options in customizing your team while still adding the randomness of item drops and Pokémon encountered
@@Zorothegallade-rpg That and Emerald Rogue are both fantastic and good examples of what i was talking about, and much more challenging/skillful than Kaizo Ironmon. Pokerouge is even more so.
This challenge perfectly embodies how I played pokemon as a child - mash the strong move with the strong 'mon, lose and come back without learning a damn thing lol
12:01 - it is worth mentioning that even with low odds, with the hundreds of opposing Pokémon you face, the compounding 214/215 chance starts to become increasingly unlikely, heck even after just 200 Pokémon of level 30+, the chance you *won’t* see a shedinja is ~40%. After 300 enemy Pokémon that falls to ~25%. As a reminder, there’s ~100 Pokémon before you complete Cerulean+Nugget Bridge+Route 25. The numbers pile up quickly. Even with sub 30 estimates for all of them, that’s a ~78% chance you don’t see a Shedinja before then, so 1/5 runs will. Planning for it is necessary.
This isn’t a criticism of the video, if anything it’s a reminder that the RNG is even more punishing.
That's totally fair and a good point to bring up, but the point of the section wasn't supposed to be a statistical analysis of how likely or unlikely running into a Shedinja is during a run, but rather the appropriate amount of resources dedicated to one should you. Like I stated in the video, the idea isn't to have NO plan, but rather plan accordingly by buying tons of Pokeballs to PP stall it out instead of dedicating an entire move slot for it.
The real threat would be running into one during an early game boss fight when resources are at their most limited, so I think the 1/386 chance is the more appropriate number to look at since I'm less worried about running into one on some random underleved trainer with two Pokémon to their name.
@@CaptainKiddYT Entirely fair, hence why I tried to make sure the comment didn’t come off as a criticism, as I do agree with the spirit of it, and why I added the section calculating the rough odds of seeing/not seeing one early game, roughly ~22/78 odds pre-beating Misty, also why one of my other comments added another RNG example, that being the reason that nobody does a speedrun of XD Gale of Darkness because there’s no way to avoid a ~50% game over in the endgame. Skillfully dodge that coin flip eh?
I do think that largely the idea of Kaizo as “the hardest challenge” is either clickbait or needs a modifier of “the most grueling endurance ‘challenge’ ”.
For a game to be difficult there has to be enough control for you to make errors, for you to be able to look back and go 'Oh, this is how I could improve!' this is like saying seeing your favorite character die in a movie is something you could have overcome, despite you having no control over that
Watching that cartridge go into the GBA backwards made me wince.
Haha the same thought went through my mind
Yes, this exactly!
I do like the rules on Dungeons/Caves, wild Pokémon grinding, and only being allowed to use heal items in battle. Honestly, just those rules on top of a Nuzlocke would be sick and it might even be actually fun!
It wouldn't work with a harcore nuzlocke though. That means no healing items at all, which would be suicide for most if not any run.
Just the dungeons rule on top of normal hc nuzlocke is cool, with already established max level rules based on what gym badge you have
The fact that on the side of this, UA-cam recommended me a kaizo ironmon stream with the title "Harder than nuzlocke" is so funny
...it objectively si harder than nuzlocke. i've done both. play it yourself, dont let some youtuber with a wartotle avatar tell you it isn't.
@@Eighty8percent I dont fully agree or disagree with Captain Kidd but the fact that you talk about difficulty yet cant even differentiate Wartortle and Squirtle does not help your case at all
@@Eighty8percent if you call something's hard because it takes many attempts, and the reason why you lose is because you don't have a good RNG then you might as well call shiny hunting is harder than nuzlocke
@@Eighty8percentive also tried both, cant say the kaizo ironmon was exactly much of a challenge compared to fucking run&bun. anyone who has done or grinded both will tell you that.
@@Eighty8percent Same brain dead take as thinking grinding levels is hard in a nuzlocke.
I am not joking, one of the rules is to talk to mom. I'm not kidding. You lose if you don't talk to mom.
That's a good rule.
I can’t determine whether that’s funny or stupid after hearing the rest of the rules
It might sound like a joke until you have done it a 100 times and start to realize that talking to a pixel sprite has cost you an hour of your life
ironmon was created as a fun challenge for the streamer who created it. it was never intended to be a strict thing that everyone had to follow and compete in. it was just for one streamer and their community, hence the mom rule
You better talk to your mother before leaving. She birthed and burped you
Kaizo Mario is known for allowing some of the most insane clips and shows of skill in a platformer. Kaizo Ironmon takes almost all of the skill away. Insane.
Remember… your run doesn’t count unless you say goodbye to mom!
Personally I really like watching Kaizo Ironmon content, but playing it myself? Absolutely not. But then, the same applies to hardcore nuzlockes, so I guess that makes me a boring casual player
I'm in the same boat- and that's fine! Games are meant to be enjoyed, and playing them to unwind over adding yet more stress to your day is one of the best things about them.
A lot more entertaining than going on a page to see the gym leader line up and run some calcs to manipulate AI behaviour according to a flow chart.
Understanding that a game isn't just about beating it and the unknown and rng can screw you at anytime can be frustrating and rewarding, but it will be entertaining.
I love puzzle solving and manip strats, but every "professional" nuzlocke is the most boring thing. Freezai is a great players, but watching any of his nuzlocke is pointless.
you're not a boring casual player, you just aren't a content creator, the reality is nobody would play this trash without streaming it or making a video about it because it was made to be content bait and wasn't designed with any real thought for how beatable it could be, which makes for great content because the "epic hype moment" can happen at any point, and to be clear, I have no issue with this, sometimes creators just want easy content and kaizo ironmon is exactly that
@@MrKoutsuko I like a good “fuck it, we ball” type of gameplay too, but I can’t deny that I’ve myself looked up trainer lineups and level up movesets on casual runs simply because at the end of the day yeah, I want to win in the most proficient way I can rather than go in with little to no strategy and completely botching an otherwise easily obtainable win without being over prepared.
Case and point, I just beat HeartGold vanilla for the first time with an underleveled team. I had the goal in mind to win rather than sit through another hour of grinding for an easier time. So yeah, I looked up Lance’s team and quick reset until I got the shot I was looking for.
Is that really a bad thing?
@@MrKoutsuko no fr its like where is the fun 😭 i respect the hustle and that its fun for them but i don get the appeal because why bother with a game you can barely even play
“Or is it?” -Vsauce and captain kidd
hey Vsauce Captain Kidd here! where are your pokemon?
4:53 Kidd: _"Your best hope of winning is to get a Pokemon with either good typing or high stats, like this Kingdra I'm showing off as example."_
Me who is legitimately more than halfway through a Kaizo attempt with a Kingdra: *"Oh hey, it's me"*
I NEVER understood the appeal of Kaizo Ironmon. I love Nuzlockes and I enjoy randomizers sometimes, but the restrictions and heavy RNG just seems way too frustrating.
Right. Nuzlockes and Randomizers, even hardcore and difficult ones like Emerald Kaizo are still fun because there is a challenge, but its still definitely beatable with proper time, strategy and skill, which is why they're so satisfying to watch and for people to play, you feel genuinely accomplished when you win because you truly earned it. Ironmon just throws in too many variables that turns it into an unfun slog with no skill, just luck and RNG, which is never a very fun experience.
Then it's not for you.
@@NewCoffeePlus Never said it was for me. I was just explaining why I don't like it. If someone else likes it and wants to play it, more power to them.
@@lovelylavenderrNuzlocke’s are way easier to beat than Kaizo. It’s that simple. The only way to make the game harder is to change the game to something else. Pokémon is just to easy any other way.
@@lovelylavenderr Which is definitely why its made for his stream. A way to endlessly grind content out over a game (or more) to stretch thousands of hours. Just beware of the Kaizo police. ;)
So, I'm a member of the Ironmon creator's Twitch community. Have been for longer than I've watched stuff that you, pChal, Alpharad, and the like put out. I think this "hardest" message came more from clickbait and from some parts of the community that formed around the challenge than from Pie. He's always admitted he intended this to be an unfair challenge designed to take a stupid amount of time to beat. To make stream value. And a lot of people, myself included, enjoy that to some degree. Some of them perhaps a bit too much. I'm honestly tired of this constant need to compare Nuzlockes and Ironmon. Let people play these games the way they want to. Anything less feels like gatekeeping.
Because when it comes to either challenge, it's the creator's personality and not the challenge itself that'll get me to watch. I like watching Pie attempt Ironmon because of his personality, despite knowing he has some of the worst luck of anyone out there and will rarely get on a run. Or he'll run absolute garbage 'mons and manage to get them decently far. I don't get the same enjoyment of Ironmon from all streamers. With some creators, I don't watch unless it's clear they're in late game. Nuzlockes are in a similar boat for me, *especially* the hardcore ones. I used to eat up Nuzlocke playthroughs of ROM hacks and fan games during their UA-cam heyday in the early to mid 2010s. And then I gravitated to Twitch and I became completely uninterested in full Nuzlocke playthroughs. The only thing that brought me back to them was *scripted* content back on UA-cam. I've tried to watch Nuzlocke streams, but I just can't get into them. Especially in the age of the hardcore Nuzlocke where team planning can take ages and, at least from my perspective, isn't that interesting to watch. Like, yes, it's nice to hear the player's thought process and the order of operation they're going through, but it doesn't take long for it to all start to blend together for me. Maybe it's because so much of my job involves reading and drafting reports that Nuzlocke streams make me feel like I'm at work again. Or maybe I just don't enjoy Pokémon much as a livestream game. No idea.
I don't know if you'll read this, but figured I'd offer my ramblings anyway. tl;dr: Stop comparing. Its the personalities that make challenge runs enjoyable... or not.
Who made scripted ironmon videos? Genuinely curious not trying to be hostile
Nuzlocking nowdays is soulless. The "harder" the challenge, more people will just check up the enemy trainer lineup, run calcs before battle to manip the AI accordingly to a flow chart. Then they will manip rules like species clauses to choose what they want to pick, skip grind with candies because "it's just boring and time consuming" completely ignoring the risks that come with negligence and rng that can make them lose a pokemon while grinding and so on.
A nuzlocke is pointless if it isn't a blind run or a randomizer. There's fun in puzzle solving and manip strats, but the whole point of a nuzlocke goes against that.
@mrkoutsuko you do realize most nuzlocke content nowadays is in romhacks that require that and make the game less tedious.
Their are content creators that do different type nuzlocke content. So watch that type of content.
Also the fact that you only believe a nuzlocke can only be truly done if its a blind run that can only happen on randomized runs or first times. Is really hyperbolic.
@@MrKoutsuko you think pure grind is fun???
I think that nuzlockes that are live usually have a different difficulty threshold to be fun from a regular challenge for sure. The run can be a bit easier with the caveat that the runner doesn't constantly check stats and such and end up being a fun time, the sort of old school nuzlockes people used to post as lets plays before the 'scripted resurgence' of the challenge happened on UA-cam.
The gist is that as a viewer, I want to see someone go in with a plan and see how it turns out (hopefully with some level of uncertainty about it's success otherwise it just becomes boring). I don't want to *wait through* the person making the plan in real time, and if I *do* wait I want them to be time limited or them to skip that wait for me.
The 'calculated' nuzlockes are more fun to strategize and explain for a scripted run in many cases I think, but at the same time the more 'spontaneous' nuzlockes feel much more fun in-the-moment.
Kaizo Ironmon attempts to lean completely on the 'spontaneous' way too much, whereas 'calculated' nuzlockes lean completely on the opposite end.
Older nuzlockes lie somewhere in between, but unfortunately there isn't an unlimited amount of new playthroughs of a Pokémon game one can have and even if there was, at some point you get enough mastery that it just doesn't have that middle ground as much anymore without extra rulesets. And once you play enough of those and truly master the game, you can end up with all runs either being completely calculated or completely RNG with not much in between
Been looking forward to this since hearing you talk about it!! I gotta agree with pretty much all your points about it being essentially shiny hunting for the perfect run. I think it still has a purpose of telling a good story with the crazy number of attempts it takes, and the story practically writes itself in the right storyteller's hands when a perfect counter suddenly appears at any point in the game, but the run's purpose should never be to be seen as the "hardest" challenge or the ultimate test of any skill other than patience with how truly random it is
Looking forward to seeing what that Aerodactyl pulled off!!
this video explains exactly why i don't watch or do kaizo ironmon, its just rng pulling a slot machine arm
It’s only hard because of rng everything being random just makes it unpredictable and the unpredictably nature is what makes it hard. But like others have said it’s an easy challenge to do but hard to stay focused if you aren’t one to have patience
It's also hard because basically the rules invalidate your run if you get TOO lucky. It's like playing Blackjack but you automatically lose if you draw 19 or higher.
kaizo ironmon is definitely an interesting content machine with the sheer amount of RNG, imo the most fun parts about this challenge really are, when you have to manage your ressources, during challenging battles, which unfortunately are only a small percentage of overall gameplay.
Kaizo Ironmon has the same vibes as "Beat Elden Ring with random weapons, bosses are randomly swapped around, and also you must let every enemy hit you once for every time you hit them". Remove all skill except being able to capitalize on whatever lucky break you get.
"Pffft, winning the lottery is obviously the hardest challenge."
A statement dreamed up by the utterly deranged.
4:00 the favourite clause makes it very clear that the man did indeed intend for this to be fun on some level.
I think the worst thing is how you could have the best mon and then you meet a random sturdy perish song mon on a trainer with 5 mons and you simply die. Literally nothing you could've ever done. Not like you can start all battles with disable perish song and expect to win anything
Oh u can disable perish song in the settings (: and sturdy does not interact how u think it does in gen-3 it only prevents ok-ho moves
if anyone wants a fangame that sort of hits that dungeon crawling resource management vibe, give pokemon remenisence a try. its one of my favorite fan games ever with a roguelike inspired gameplay loop and it has a really cool story with built in speed up if youd rather ignore it
patience is also a skill. other than that i love this video because it is nearly as petty as me
*Artificial difficulty.*
I think the "challenge" is stupid and a waste of time honestly.
The challenge has provided me entertainment. Therefore, it is objectively not a waste of time.
@@ashleybricco4107 You are not me lol.
@@Bloomkyaaa Good thing, too, because your opinions aren’t great.
@@ashleybricco4107 And that's YOUR opinion. Good we had this talk. 👍
@@ashleybricco4107 some people also consider watching cocomelon entertainment
I'm hurt you don't think I legitimately like Blissey.
So basically, no matter how good you are at the game, there's a good chance you'll just randomly fail at any time due to unfortunate randomization?
Thats every randomizer in pokemon ever. Casino
It kinda baffles me that of all the ridiculous rules in this thing, a level cap isn't one of them when that's almost always used as an optional rule in Nuzlockes.
How is that baffling? A level cap is implied by the fact you cannot farm wild pokemon for experience. There are a finite number of trainers, after all.
@ashleybricco4107 you... did see how much higher leveled than literally everyone else Kidd was, right? That was him fighting all the trainers he could because there was no restrictions on his level cap.
@@ScootsLounge Yes but because there’s a finite amount of trainers, there’s still a level cap. You can’t get higher level after you’ve defeated every trainer. It is true that you can get pretty far ahead of the opponents in some games like fire red, though this depends on the game. In black and white 2 for example the gap is much lower.
Also, even in fire red the gap becomes much smaller in the endgame.
If there was a level cap there would be a 0% win rate. I don't feel like I have to show my work on that one, 1 lv50 vs 6lv50 explains itself
@@ScootsLounge having no level cap implies you can farm levels until you’re max level, which you can’t. I don’t care if there’s technically no level cap directly written in the rules.
My biggest problem with Kaizo Ironmon is just how arbitrary some of the rules are... they're beyond arbitrary, seemingly designed to increase the attempt counter by a couple hundred (or as few as tens of attempts) on a challenge that likely will tick into the thousands already. Like why bother with the stupid favourites rule and having to select your starter at random? The chance that there is a legal pokemon that can go all the way out of the 3 in the beginning is already extroadinarily low.
Why aren't you able to teach TMs you find? There's such an astromomically low chance you find one that's useful to begin with and if you have the same 50% chance of it being teachable in the rom I really don't see this being such a massive advantage as to completely negate the challenge. Likewise if all healing moves are banned then remove them from the game (at least as an option for the player, still have them in the movepool for trainer pokemon); is removing the small chance of a dead learn slot really going to make the challenge *that* much easier?
I feel like there's a fun(?) little RNG roguelike challenge with a ruleset that makes sense after some tweaking.
“so uh captain kid why did you decide to do the ironmon challenge?”
“spite”
Kinda ironic that in the featured run, it was Bruno who was the villain and run-ender, since he’s pretty much regarded as the weakest Elite 4 member of all time, lol.
I enjoy randomized nuzlockes. But only when it's just the encounters and items that are random (and abilities but some might disagree there). Having random types and bst has just never been as fun since it can be either really bs or just boring.
The only thing worse than being at the mercy of a game designer's whims, is being at the non-existent mercy of an RNG.
Kaizo be like “yeah lemme just limit you in 800992020 different ways. Have fun!” And people eat this slop up
Wait... Kidd can put a GBA game the wrong way in a GBA and make it work?! That man's a wizard!!
Wow. Someone put all of my thoughts on this Pokemon """Challenge""" in a good video! Great stuff!
"good speed"
*underlines special defense*
SPeeD
@@FutureDeepcommon mistake.
This video puts into words what I've felt about Kaizo runs for a while now. I've always felt that a Nuzlock with harder rules would be much more difficult than this slot machine of a mode.
Not finished with it yet, but this is probably my favorite video of yours BY FAR. You kisted everything I had a problem with in Kaizou Ironmon and the commentary was great as usual!
Stand proud, your video is dinner worthy.
I've seen plenty of people who have Kaizo Ironmon videos with the typical clickbait "Hardest Pokemon Challenge" in their title, but none of them have been able to explain to me why they call Kaizo Ironmon the hardest challenge when it is the 2nd hardest challenge listed on the rules page for all Ironmon challenges.
If kaizo Ironmon is playing slots, then nuzlocking is just being a mathematician.
As someone with a gambling addiction, big fan of this challenge, cant put a finger on why
Honestly, channeling a gambling addiction into Ironmon might be one of the best examples of harm reduction I've seen.
I really dislike the ironmon "challange" as well because it really is just a weird slot machine. And its really sad imo that it kinda survived longer and somehow could carry on its hype over PokeRouge and Emerald Rouge because these are actually good rogue likes unlike Ironmon (which through all the randomization has kinda become one) and it most certainly didn't earn the right to have putten Kaizo at the beginning of its title.
as usual your editing is TOP class
I agree that challenges should be overcome with skill and learning from past attempts. This is like throwing a bunch of various dice and hoping the dice like you and give you good luck
Well-crafted ROM-hacks like Garbage Green are much better examples of true Pokemon challenges. They are carefully crafted puzzle boxes that require a solid strategy to even have a chance of survival. Difficult game design, true challenge, real bragging rights.
I watched all your vods doing Kaizo Ironmon, and as you finally won with aerodactyl, I won with gardevoir
I do enjoy randomized stuff because I think it's a very different kind of challenge, one a bit more luck based true, but one that has a lot of interesting potential for interesting interactions and moments, but ironman kaizo strips away even that game knowledge of knowing all about niche abilities and pokemon and what they can do which is sad
Trying to win with a Porygon2? Idk maybe try Aerodactyl next time, he's cooler.
My playthrough of alteRed hit some of those notes. I had no idea what these fakemon were: not their move pools nor stats nor abilities nor typing. So I found caught a bunch of stuff, chose something promising and pressed A through most of the game. It was a really cool experience, but I didn't learn anything, and not many parts were memorable.
THANK YOU CAPTAIN!
That's something I always thought about this challenge!
Randomiser mods are good for one thing and one thing only- For personality driven youtubers to make us laugh with their hilarious reactions to the whacky hijinks that ensue. But as far as being a serious "challenge"? I would rather watch paint dry tbh, it's just an exercise in frustration for everyone involved and there is zero skill or knowledge involved. If I wanted that I would ask a toddler to tell me how to fix a truck, at least then there's a chance it might be cute or funny, and if it isn't I can give them back to their parents.
A pretty uninformed take that showcases either very limited knowledge of the challenge or a lack of ability to comprehend nuance on your part.
@@ashleybricco4107 my apologies for not adding a variety of silly emojies to what I thought would clearly read as a silly, tongue in cheek little comment. My bad.
@@millie-mayprice891 this seems to be a pretty common opinion people have; I don’t see why one should take it that way.
@@ashleybricco4107 yeah, nah, I totally get it, I should have made it more obvious, I was being genuine. My bad for real homey
Like, don't get me wrong, as a viewer it IS my opinion, but it was all meant in good fun, obviously some people must enjoy it or people wouldn't keep making the videos.
Yeah, this is why I’m not going to try Kaizo Ironmon. If all I have to do to win is get lucky, it’s not really a challenge, is it? A real challenge should test my skill, not just my luck.
This is a good commentary on difficulty and gambling in video games. Your skills can only take you so far, which is where you're at the mercy of luck.
Great content and i caught that no more heroes music. Captain kidd my goooooat
So I love this video not because I think the opinion is right or wrong, but because it adds context and a dissenting opinion that I think will hopefully breed the next challenge type.
Also kudos on the negative evaluation being the perfect juxtaposition to the fact that despite disliking it, you did challenges and clearly had some attachment to P2.
You discussed the flaws while exhibiting the strengths of Kaizo Ironman and that is pretty awesome. Good job Kidd!
This video is just when the teacher tells you to make a video essay about something that bothers you.
I used to watch Patterrz Kaizo Ironmon runs and as a viewer what I liked about it the most was the chat interactions that he and some other streamers would do. It would be all around a fun watch... Though yea, RNG doesn't make a game difficult
All of these complains for me go towards randomized Pokémon as well. The very nature of it being random mitigates a lot of the skill element.
For me, the Kaizo Ironmon and Super Kaizo Ironmon (the even 'harder' cousin') challeng tickle a specific part of my Pokemon heart that Nuzlocks and similar challenges doesn't satisfy anymore. It's probably because Nuzlocks and similar challenges have been played to death, and me not liking the current meta of calcs and insane difficult rom hacks that are about as much about RNG encounters as Kaizo Ironmon but without the fast pace.
I enjoy just turning my head off and playing a few seeds while watching UA-cam. And I enjoy Kaizo Ironmon streams simply because its Just Chatting with an interesting background action and fun streamers.
But yeah, it isn't neccessarily the 'hardest' challenge (it has been titles that after it gained traction and people wanted more cloud), but its different, and thats what I seek in Pokemon nowaday.
This video is what i felt when i first looked at the rules and then when i actually did some runs and i never made it out of Viridian forest in like 10-15 attempts
I believe that kaizo ironmon is a very difficult challenge. It is difficult because it tests your perseverance. Some challenges like nuzlockes test your ability in the game but ironmon tests abilities outside of the game
This challenge would be much more interesting and "balanced" if there was a set range on the BST Pokémon can be randomized into. Something like plus or minus 10% of their original BST.
So for instance a Pidgey (251 BST) could turn into a Diglett (265) or a Zubat (245) but not a Snorlax (540). Heck, adjust it towards higher BSTs for trainers that are supposed to be more challenging like the Gym leaders, but at least make it a tiny bit more consistent.
The thing that makes this so inaccurate is that Bruno is difficult
Bro I saw the 10,000 resets at the beginning and I knew it had to be chillin 😂 poor guy has made it to the elite 4 so many times. Love the streams though
Chillnplay the goat, big dawg!
I definitely agree. Clearly the hardest challenge is winning worlds.
The people that say that Kaizo Ironmon is a skill based challenge are the same that believe that winning in a casino is a skill based event.
While I am doing my own nuzlocke, I won’t be doing the Kaizo Ironman any time soon. For starters, I don’t have the rom for it. Secondly, I’d prefer to keep what’s left of my sanity and leave it to those that might have an inkling of what to do.
I feel like the concept has potential. Running through a Pokemon game with one Pokemon WOULD be a difficult task. What single Pokemon would be the best for running through the whole game? How do you manage your limited overworld items to this end? Running with a single Pokemon, they’ll become higher level right away, so increasing the levels of core trainers would help keep the difficulty curves.
But, they just completely trash it by randomizing everything. Randomizing starters makes sense, as otherwise your pickings for the attempt are always limited. But randomizing items? Moves?! STATS?! It’s just a glorified slot machine, sadly. Nothing to learn, just throwing yourself at the wall until you stick. It’s fun to watch the recap stream highlights, but it isn’t challenging.
I just wanta see Ironmon, but in a game like EK, and without all the randomness. Maybe not Emerald Kaizo specifically, that one is maybe too difficult, but a game where teams have better coverage. That way a single Pokemon can’t just sweep the whole gym, and needs to pull out some strategy to succeed. There’s the bones for a genuine challenge here, we just need someone to really grasp it
One Pokémon is where the challenge falls apart. There is room for strategy in Pokémon, but when your pool of available options shrinks from 24 moves (4 moves x 6 Pokémon) to 4 moves with zero opportunity cost besides the PP spent, youv'e already stripped a lot of the potential for expression of skill in this game. You're playing a game of chess with just a king and a queen, a solved game.
Thank you! Kaizo Ironmon is, like you said, more a test of patience and eventually getting the correct RNG string to be able to click your buttons to OHKO the enemy team and get a minmaxed stat spread without any of the bans mentioned in the video (and this video doesn't even come close to 1/10th of the total restrictions). I'm 90% sure it's just supposed to be an endless grind for streamers, especially streamers that don't know a lot about Pokemon besides type matchups and big base power button with enough pp do a lot of damage. It's a completely different experience to a nuzlocke, or especially a nuzlocke in a game like run and bun, which is all knowledge and optimization and marathoning 500+ fights while playing perfectly the whole time, as one mistake can snowball out of control. But in those games, when you lose a mon, it is (usually) your fault, as your prep might've been suboptimal or you made some mistakes. The challenge and the relief of winning is much more worth it (IN MY OPINION) because the skill required and the amount of skill expression that can be, well, expressed is tantamount to winning a run, which are human elements that are within our control as players. You bring up a super good point with the switch AI. In games like Emerald Kaizo, Run and Bun, even easier nuzlockes like Renegade Platinum, an understanding of the Switch in AI is essential for a victory, which brings in a knowledge gap and skill expression by which you can predamage to bait out pokemon, or even chain kill in some of the harder games. In Kaizo Ironmon, however, a lot of Kaizo Ironmon players don't even know how the switch AI works (I've even seen speedrun explanation videos flat out get this wrong) because you don't need to know it! You can't switch, so baiting is not really a thing, and you don't know what is coming up, so there would not even be a point if you could.
Great video! It's quite annoying as a nuzlocker, though a fairly average one, to be bombarded with people saying "oh you just can't beat Kaizo Ironmon that's why you think it sucks" and the general culture around Kaizo Ironmon can be quite toxic at times, presumably because it invites a bunch of casuals who watch streamers have high attempt counters every day and don't actually do any of these runs themselves.
Here is a Pokémon challenge. I personally like to call it the death Road challenge rule number one you’re only allowed to use moves. They are the same type as your Pokémon rule number two. During gym battles, you’re only allowed to use one Pokémon elite four fights you’re allowed to use three rule number three during gym battles and elite four fights you aren’t allowed to use super effective moves rule number four you aren’t allowed to damaging moves during a wild Pokémon encounter using status moves is fine
I’ve never really liked RNG dependent ‘challenges’. Like said in the video, they just challenge your patience, not your actual ability to play the game. I feel bad for people who are genuinely mislead by Kauai Ironmon and believe the attempt counter and long ruleset mean it’s a difficult ‘challenge’.
You can throw as many arbitrary rules into a challenge as you want and say it's the hardest Pokèmon challenge, but if it's not really fun to play, what's the point?
26:26 I should not have laughed as hard as I did here.
Kaizo Ironmon is like a maze where something random happens to you for no reason
I watch kaizo runs so i dont have to gamble myself
I think a lot of this stems from people misunderstanding what "Kaizo" games actually are. Kaizo games aren't just extremely difficult, they're actively unfair. They're the gaming equivalent of banging your head against a brick wall and seeing which one breaks first and if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing in any given situation then the wall's gonna win. Kaizo Ironmon takes this to an even higher level due to the randomness meaning the player themselves barely know what they're doing and have to optimize the few variables they can control as much as possible.
Don't put people down for not completing the challenge, give them props for even giving it a crack and making progress
I feel like ironmon has potential to be interesting but with how much rng is in it, it just seems not fun.
So dumb how you have to blind pick a ball or that 99% of the time the pokemon is trash. So much time is wasted just waiting on RNG.
regarding shiny hunting, i have heard it referred to as hard/difficult tbh, especially when its a longer or more skill dependent hunt (ie rare pokemon in lets go who have unusual movement patterns or flee quickly, rare pokemon in general, pokemon go shiny hunting, marked shinies etc), especially compared to easier hunts like a route 1 rattata in lets go. theres a test of determination going on as well. its usually said when a hunt is going to be a particularly long grind as well- because its hard on your personal determination and patience.
At 2:30 the cartridge goes in to the gba the wrong way around
the random starter pick is probably so u don't get to choose the starter pokemon for your rival...
Shoutout to the homie Chillnplay who made it into first clip... He still hasnt beaten this challenge
14:19 "Giving me 16 psychic PP to launch off at will"
I was watching FlygonHG's soul silver flying type only nuzlocke the other day and learned, during his fight against Karen's Double Team spamming Umbreon, that Foresight renders evasion boosts useless. It's such a niche interaction that would almost never come into play unless you're doing something like a monotype hardcore Nuzlocke. The format Pokemon randomizers seem most fun for me is something like PokeRogue that at least offers a decent number of resources for a player to use and keeps enough consistency where strategy and planning are required. It doesn't matter how skilled a player is if they have virtually zero resources at their disposal. At that point, like you pointed out, it's just luck.
Kaizo ironmon feels like a community outsourced project to find all the different seeds of "winnable" versions of this challenge. Surely there's something we can gain to make something interesting from all this head bashing people do
Kaizo Ironmon is just a solo randomizer with a ton of extra steps and more randomized elements than you'd normally have
That's it
Just to say, streamers can't lie about favorites. It's on the tracker, and 99% of streamers get their chat to pick them if you gift sub.
if you want an example of random done good, id suggest u check out emerald rogue! even though a lot of it is random (as its a roguelike), i think theres a lot of skill in it still (especially because the pokemon themselves dont have their attributes randomized)
Funny, I only really heard about Kaizo Ironmon through 4chan threads, but that was a while ago. I thought this was going to be an ironmon run of something like Kaizo Emerald
Man, I should boot up Kaizo Emerald again.