You need a bullet made from gilding metal and not copper. Check out Peregrine Bullets' Plainsmaster bullet. It opens reliably as low as 1600ft/sec. I have used them out beyond 400 yards in my .308 with perfect expansion and penetration to just under the skin on the opposite side. Their BCs are not too bad either.
@@kurtthegunsmith Im getting fantastic results with Peregrine Glider 168gr in my 284win. The G7 BC is north of .36 and Im getting more than 3000ft/sec out of a 284 with zero pressure issues. This is unheard of!!!! GAME CHANGER for F-Class!!
Thanks for the video. I to like copper bullets and I use to use Barnes ttsx but now I use hammer bullets and they are awesome they are by far the best on game performance bullets I’ve ever used also are accurate and easy to load for check them out. Thanks again God bless
I have used Barnes bullets in .243 win (85 gr), .300 WSM (165 tsx&ttsx, 180 tsx&ttsx), 338 win mag (225 tsx, 250 x) and 35 whelen (180 tsx, 225 tsx). I guide hunters so I have seen a lot of different kills at all angles. In total I’ve seen 15 caribou, 43 sheep, 35 brown or grizzly bears taken with Barnes bullets. In addition to an uknown number of Sitka Blacktail. First and foremost for guiding I only will use copper bullets. It is common to have to shoot into a wounded bear to ensure it is not lost at a variety of angles. Barnes works and the .338 is death. You only need the 225/250 gr Barnes even for large bears. I trust this combo. Shooting bears and big moose you can trust the Barnes goes straight upon impact and this is important when you are making a shot at a bad angle and thinking about a wound channel to the vitals. I did use Winchester fail safes for a while. 230 gr in my 338. They had lead in the rear of the bullet and copper in the front. They would tumble inside the animal. I think the denser lead base caused this as the front opened up. Barnes over the years have gotten better at being consistent in terminal performance. I started using them around 2000. They used to not always open up at distance. I would be a liar if I could tell you what impact velocities as my memory is not that great. But I remember a caribou I shot at about 300 yds with the .338 and the bullet traveled the from front to back without hitting much bone or any bone. You could have reloaded the bullet. Accuracy is only so so and I both shoot factory and reload. Factory ammo can be outstanding in my .300 WSM or just OK. Outstanding is 1 MOA, OK is 1.5-2 MOA. It seems to vary from lot to lot. Some boxes of the same bullets, 165 gr ttsx have shot amazing. The same load bought a year later or two not so good. Velocity is high in these loads. Like 3200 fps. Meat damage with my .300 and even .338 can be significant. Especially in my .300 on Sitka deer. My .243 was shooting an 85 gr barnes @3200 fps. This bullet was pretty accurate- 1.5 MOA. I found kills on sheep and caribou to be kinda slow but damage to hides and meat not bad at all. The .300 is terrible on hides and meat, again I emphasize this because the caliber bullet combo is a super killer but destructive as can be. My whelen is new to my arsenal. I don’t have a super accurate load for the 225 gr barnes but I have tried. Factory 185 ttsx shoot just over 1 MOA. However 220 gr Hammers shoot sub .5 MOA. I have taken 6 Sitka deer with the 220 hammers in 35 whelen now. The accuracy is astounding and the terminal performance is great. Almost no meat damage- this I attribute to caliber mostly. The bullets are shedding the front petals, but meat is still not damaged and internal trauma in the chest cavity is astounding. I wish my hunter only used copper bullets because you can trust them. The accuracy is marginal so I understand why they don’t. If the Hammers are as accurate in other calibers beyond my Whelen the solution has been found. The rest of the sheep I have been on were taken with lead bullets. The worst thing to shoot a dall sheep with is some kind of magnum- 3100+ FPS velocity- and a Berger bullet. Yes it is accurate and year the sheep dies dramatically. However, if you don’t hit the sheep right you may damage the cape in a way that makes you mount be permanently flawed. Also the jellied meat and blood everywhere is just kind of a shame. A .270 with a 130 gr bullet starting off at 3100 is much better.
Those performance characteristics are common to all premium bullets - bonded like A Frame and Weldcore, or monos like TSX, CX, and Terminal Ascent. They work best when fired at velocities closer to 3K fps than 2500 fps, or when the shooting is going to be close. A Frame and TSX work in my slow 404 Jeffery (2250 fps) because I'm not shooting past 100 yards at any of the game for which that cartridge is intended. A Frames also work in my 280AI - I'm getting right at 3k fps with 160 gr. But I'll never use any premium in my 45-70; even a 300 gr out of that isn't likely to register more than 2100 fps on my chrony. It doesn't really matter what the MV is, because you're going to have to adjust your hunting style to account for what the expected impact velocity is going to be. The flip side to that coin is cup-and-core bullets don't perform well where impact velocities are closer to 3k fps than 2500 fps. They tend to fragment, sometimes catastrophically, at high impact speed. For me, I could live with passing on a 600 yard shot because I was shooting premiums and the impact velocity was going to be too low. But I'd be sick if I had to pass on a 75 yard shot because I'd chosen cup-and-cores, where the probability that I was going to reproduce John Nosler's moose hunt was quite high.
@@Fireworxs2012 - you will need to take that up with the rest of the shooting world. The working definition of "premium" in this context is that the bullets consistently retain most of their mass after doing what we want bullets to do on game animals. Trust me, I'm no fan of copper bullets, but TSX sits at the top of the heap WRT weight retention, slightly ahead of Swift A Frame, Norma Oryx, Woodleigh Weldcore, Nosler Accubond, Rhino, Peregrine, and North Fork. There is a reason why dangerous game outfitters in Africa frequently require their clients to use Swift or Barnes. I may get to add a cape buffalo to my PG hunt in South Africa next August. "Make sure you're loaded up with Swift or Barnes" were my outfitters first words back to me when I brought up adding a buffalo.
I agree with you 100%! As far as adjusting my hunting style, I've hunted there for 2 years and always saw hammer bucks just past my comfort range, so this year I adjusted my bullet for that and ended up taking one at 110 yards... Which by the way was my farthest shot for the last 7 animals. I've also heard a few cases where those long-range bullets performed erratically at near muzzle velocity, which until this point really turned me away from them. Lastly, I'm jealous that you hunt with a 404 Jeffery!
@@kurtthegunsmith - I just thought I had a pair of thumpers in 45-70 and 9.3x62. The 404J has about 50% more recoil than either of them. I'm a tall dude with a 15" LOP, and my 404 is 13.5 or 13.75. I added a 1" slip-on and a Bradley kydex cheek rest. I won't say it's fun to shoot like my 6.5x55 Swede, but I could go 20 or 30 rounds before I'd had enough. Nice thing about it - it's a Montana Rifle Company model 99. Really crisp trigger, very little take-up, very smooth break. It's hard to anticipate recoil. I looked for nearly 10 years to find a LH 404J. This one's a keeper. Join the 40 cal club, go to Africa. It's a great deal less expensive than most people imagine it to be. It's less expensive to hunt cape buffalo in RSA, Namibia, or Zimbabwe than a guided moose hunt in AK. And not by just a little bit. My oldest son is a 2nd year surgical resident, he's chomping at the bit to finish residency so he can come with me, using one of the big mediums. My one and only gripe about 404J is finding components. For the last 8 or 10 months, it's DGX bonded, Hammer, or Hawk. Except for Bertram, brass is unobtanium, and magnum primers are pretty scarce, though i finally found some a month or 2 back
I have been hunting reloading and collecting 60+ years and have found the ELDX are only good at distances out past 500 yards so what that says is we don’t have a need for them EXCEPT in target shooting not hunting! Copper bullets work off of higher velocity’s and as long as they stay about 2,000 fps they perform properly🤔😳
Ive ran the eld-x in my 7 RM and it usually just vaporizes itself, but probably moving a lot faster. Been loving the cx so far and just picked up some barnes lrx to try out
Defiant Munitions is my go to for copper, esspecially their TCX 9mm line. their new 380 TCX is the only 380 on the market to meet FBI expantion requirments.
I’ve tried every model of Barnes bullets since they came to market in my rifles. NONE of them will shoot better than 2moa. In over a dozen of my rifles. Most of these same rifle will shoot .2” to .3” at 200 yards with ballistic tip and vmax hand loads. Imo you have to get a rifle that was bored out smaller than the bullet diameter to get them to shoot acceptable accuracy. Just like over sizing a cast bullet. If Barnes offered their line up and down in thousands diameter in every caliber they probably would shoot a lot better by picking the correct diameter.
@@kurtthegunsmith Your bore must be undersized. I have slugged my rifles and they are are same as bullet diameter or larger. Most claim they don’t group worth a darn vs the selected few that do. Imo I’d rather shoot a boring cup and core projectile over an all copper or bonded bullet. I’ve shot deer with all three and the cup and core puts the down on the spot most the time vs a premium bullet that does not expand much unless bone is hit. Therefore not a lot of energy transfer and hydrostatic shock transfer. I get alot of runners with heart and lung shots with accubonds and Barnes TSX trippleshocks vs a quick expanding cup and core , vmax, or ballistic tip.
Don't know your cleaning regimen, but at least a few solid copper manufacturers say you should make sure your bore is clean of all gilded copper because it affects the accuracy of their rounds. I don't know the science behind it and I haven't heard the explanation as to why, other than maybe the copper solids can't engage the rifling as well with the gilded copper in place?
Thank you
You need a bullet made from gilding metal and not copper. Check out Peregrine Bullets' Plainsmaster bullet. It opens reliably as low as 1600ft/sec. I have used them out beyond 400 yards in my .308 with perfect expansion and penetration to just under the skin on the opposite side. Their BCs are not too bad either.
You aren't the first person to mention them, I'll have to check them out, thank you!
@@kurtthegunsmith Im getting fantastic results with Peregrine Glider 168gr in my 284win. The G7 BC is north of .36 and Im getting more than 3000ft/sec out of a 284 with zero pressure issues. This is unheard of!!!! GAME CHANGER for F-Class!!
Thanks for the video. I to like copper bullets and I use to use Barnes ttsx but now I use hammer bullets and they are awesome they are by far the best on game performance bullets I’ve ever used also are accurate and easy to load for check them out. Thanks again God bless
I have used Barnes bullets in .243 win (85 gr), .300 WSM (165 tsx&ttsx, 180 tsx&ttsx), 338 win mag (225 tsx, 250 x) and 35 whelen (180 tsx, 225 tsx). I guide hunters so I have seen a lot of different kills at all angles. In total I’ve seen 15 caribou, 43 sheep, 35 brown or grizzly bears taken with Barnes bullets. In addition to an uknown number of Sitka Blacktail.
First and foremost for guiding I only will use copper bullets. It is common to have to shoot into a wounded bear to ensure it is not lost at a variety of angles. Barnes works and the .338 is death. You only need the 225/250 gr Barnes even for large bears. I trust this combo. Shooting bears and big moose you can trust the Barnes goes straight upon impact and this is important when you are making a shot at a bad angle and thinking about a wound channel to the vitals.
I did use Winchester fail safes for a while. 230 gr in my 338. They had lead in the rear of the bullet and copper in the front. They would tumble inside the animal. I think the denser lead base caused this as the front opened up.
Barnes over the years have gotten better at being consistent in terminal performance. I started using them around 2000. They used to not always open up at distance. I would be a liar if I could tell you what impact velocities as my memory is not that great. But I remember a caribou I shot at about 300 yds with the .338 and the bullet traveled the from front to back without hitting much bone or any bone. You could have reloaded the bullet.
Accuracy is only so so and I both shoot factory and reload. Factory ammo can be outstanding in my .300 WSM or just OK. Outstanding is 1 MOA, OK is 1.5-2 MOA. It seems to vary from lot to lot. Some boxes of the same bullets, 165 gr ttsx have shot amazing. The same load bought a year later or two not so good. Velocity is high in these loads. Like 3200 fps.
Meat damage with my .300 and even .338 can be significant. Especially in my .300 on Sitka deer.
My .243 was shooting an 85 gr barnes @3200 fps. This bullet was pretty accurate- 1.5 MOA. I found kills on sheep and caribou to be kinda slow but damage to hides and meat not bad at all. The .300 is terrible on hides and meat, again I emphasize this because the caliber bullet combo is a super killer but destructive as can be.
My whelen is new to my arsenal. I don’t have a super accurate load for the 225 gr barnes but I have tried. Factory 185 ttsx shoot just over 1 MOA. However 220 gr Hammers shoot sub .5 MOA.
I have taken 6 Sitka deer with the 220 hammers in 35 whelen now. The accuracy is astounding and the terminal performance is great. Almost no meat damage- this I attribute to caliber mostly. The bullets are shedding the front petals, but meat is still not damaged and internal trauma in the chest cavity is astounding.
I wish my hunter only used copper bullets because you can trust them. The accuracy is marginal so I understand why they don’t. If the Hammers are as accurate in other calibers beyond my Whelen the solution has been found.
The rest of the sheep I have been on were taken with lead bullets. The worst thing to shoot a dall sheep with is some kind of magnum- 3100+ FPS velocity- and a Berger bullet. Yes it is accurate and year the sheep dies dramatically. However, if you don’t hit the sheep right you may damage the cape in a way that makes you mount be permanently flawed. Also the jellied meat and blood everywhere is just kind of a shame. A .270 with a 130 gr bullet starting off at 3100 is much better.
Those performance characteristics are common to all premium bullets - bonded like A Frame and Weldcore, or monos like TSX, CX, and Terminal Ascent. They work best when fired at velocities closer to 3K fps than 2500 fps, or when the shooting is going to be close. A Frame and TSX work in my slow 404 Jeffery (2250 fps) because I'm not shooting past 100 yards at any of the game for which that cartridge is intended. A Frames also work in my 280AI - I'm getting right at 3k fps with 160 gr. But I'll never use any premium in my 45-70; even a 300 gr out of that isn't likely to register more than 2100 fps on my chrony.
It doesn't really matter what the MV is, because you're going to have to adjust your hunting style to account for what the expected impact velocity is going to be.
The flip side to that coin is cup-and-core bullets don't perform well where impact velocities are closer to 3k fps than 2500 fps. They tend to fragment, sometimes catastrophically, at high impact speed.
For me, I could live with passing on a 600 yard shot because I was shooting premiums and the impact velocity was going to be too low. But I'd be sick if I had to pass on a 75 yard shot because I'd chosen cup-and-cores, where the probability that I was going to reproduce John Nosler's moose hunt was quite high.
@Fireworxs2012 I put 3 hammers through the same hole the other day, why so salty?
@@Fireworxs2012 - you will need to take that up with the rest of the shooting world. The working definition of "premium" in this context is that the bullets consistently retain most of their mass after doing what we want bullets to do on game animals. Trust me, I'm no fan of copper bullets, but TSX sits at the top of the heap WRT weight retention, slightly ahead of Swift A Frame, Norma Oryx, Woodleigh Weldcore, Nosler Accubond, Rhino, Peregrine, and North Fork.
There is a reason why dangerous game outfitters in Africa frequently require their clients to use Swift or Barnes. I may get to add a cape buffalo to my PG hunt in South Africa next August. "Make sure you're loaded up with Swift or Barnes" were my outfitters first words back to me when I brought up adding a buffalo.
@Fireworxs2012 once again, why so salty?
I agree with you 100%! As far as adjusting my hunting style, I've hunted there for 2 years and always saw hammer bucks just past my comfort range, so this year I adjusted my bullet for that and ended up taking one at 110 yards... Which by the way was my farthest shot for the last 7 animals. I've also heard a few cases where those long-range bullets performed erratically at near muzzle velocity, which until this point really turned me away from them. Lastly, I'm jealous that you hunt with a 404 Jeffery!
@@kurtthegunsmith - I just thought I had a pair of thumpers in 45-70 and 9.3x62. The 404J has about 50% more recoil than either of them. I'm a tall dude with a 15" LOP, and my 404 is 13.5 or 13.75. I added a 1" slip-on and a Bradley kydex cheek rest. I won't say it's fun to shoot like my 6.5x55 Swede, but I could go 20 or 30 rounds before I'd had enough. Nice thing about it - it's a Montana Rifle Company model 99. Really crisp trigger, very little take-up, very smooth break. It's hard to anticipate recoil. I looked for nearly 10 years to find a LH 404J. This one's a keeper.
Join the 40 cal club, go to Africa. It's a great deal less expensive than most people imagine it to be. It's less expensive to hunt cape buffalo in RSA, Namibia, or Zimbabwe than a guided moose hunt in AK. And not by just a little bit. My oldest son is a 2nd year surgical resident, he's chomping at the bit to finish residency so he can come with me, using one of the big mediums. My one and only gripe about 404J is finding components. For the last 8 or 10 months, it's DGX bonded, Hammer, or Hawk. Except for Bertram, brass is unobtanium, and magnum primers are pretty scarce, though i finally found some a month or 2 back
I have been hunting reloading and collecting 60+ years and have found the ELDX are only good at distances out past 500 yards so what that says is we don’t have a need for them EXCEPT in target shooting not hunting! Copper bullets work off of higher velocity’s and as long as they stay about 2,000 fps they perform properly🤔😳
Ive ran the eld-x in my 7 RM and it usually just vaporizes itself, but probably moving a lot faster. Been loving the cx so far and just picked up some barnes lrx to try out
My 7mm 180 ELDM does "rapid unscheduled disassembly" on the way to the target when going faster than 2900ft/sec
What cx are you running in 7RM weight speed twist rate barrel length etc and what kind of results are you getting accuracy
Defiant Munitions is my go to for copper, esspecially their TCX 9mm line. their new 380 TCX is the only 380 on the market to meet FBI expantion requirments.
I’ve tried every model of Barnes bullets since they came to market in my rifles. NONE of them will shoot better than 2moa. In over a dozen of my rifles. Most of these same rifle will shoot .2” to .3” at 200 yards with ballistic tip and vmax hand loads. Imo you have to get a rifle that was bored out smaller than the bullet diameter to get them to shoot acceptable accuracy. Just like over sizing a cast bullet. If Barnes offered their line up and down in thousands diameter in every caliber they probably would shoot a lot better by picking the correct diameter.
Very interesting. I have only had them shoot great in my rifles so its good to hear another perspective
@@kurtthegunsmith Your bore must be undersized. I have slugged my rifles and they are are same as bullet diameter or larger. Most claim they don’t group worth a darn vs the selected few that do. Imo I’d rather shoot a boring cup and core projectile over an all copper or bonded bullet. I’ve shot deer with all three and the cup and core puts the down on the spot most the time vs a premium bullet that does not expand much unless bone is hit. Therefore not a lot of energy transfer and hydrostatic shock transfer. I get alot of runners with heart and lung shots with accubonds and Barnes TSX trippleshocks vs a quick expanding cup and core , vmax, or ballistic tip.
BS
Don't know your cleaning regimen, but at least a few solid copper manufacturers say you should make sure your bore is clean of all gilded copper because it affects the accuracy of their rounds.
I don't know the science behind it and I haven't heard the explanation as to why, other than maybe the copper solids can't engage the rifling as well with the gilded copper in place?
Look at the Cutting Edge Laser. It will fracture and work down to 1200 fps.
Cutting Edge is garbage