This is why Fenriz and Nocturno took Darkthrone in the more punky direction. To play what they wanted to hear and to show all the Darkthrone and Burzum clones the roots of black metal. "You think old school is 1993"
Fist generation black metal is early 80’s the first two Drakthrone albums Fenriz calls death metal albums and was influenced by the Death band . Fans called it black metal but to Fenriz it’s what he thinks it is which he still credits as death metal. I will give you that Dark thrones and black flags has a crust punk feel to it.
@@sothis1448 what the fuck is true black metal there is no such thing before there was the term black metal everyone just called it thrash metal. really Brazilians came up with what everyone copied at least the blast beats in black metal as well some of the guitar riffs which Darkthrone was influenced by. Black metal was also influenced by Crust punk even early members of Mayhem played crust punk before playing black metal. All this is just influenced by either punk rock or heavy metal. The blast beat everyone uses now really comes from Napalm Death which is Grindcore
@@992ras It's True Norwegian Black Metal or Norsk Arisk Svart Metall (Norwegian Aryan Black Metal) as Darkthrone would say, several bands used this term. Punk is an influence, just as ambient music , techno music, progressive rock, heavy metal, thrash metal or proto-death metal is an influence. So why are you selectively mentioning punk as if it were the sole influence?
@@grindfreakmike5754 bad way? not necessarily. Wagner Ödegård and Akitsa are good BM bands clearly influenced by punk. just listen to their drum beats and even riffs.
I always thought that "true" was some sort of Hip-Hop "keeping it real" but for Black Metal. A way of saying that they're not in for the money but to spread their honest message. Either that or announcing that they and their music are exactly what the lyrics suggest and are in fact not fake "evil" or fake theistic-Satanists like other bands.
@@patrickbertlein4626 totally agree. gangsta rap/trap and black metal are my two favorite types of music. both dangerous genres characterized by similar themes.
To be fair, Black Metal isn't dangerous at all, it's mostly just nerds in the genre with a few of them being murderous kunts like what, forty years ago
OG black metal was basically just crust played with blastbeats and higher cords. That’s why you always see black metal bands wearing crust shirts. Also most of the best crust comes from Scandinavia.
THAT is ABSOLUTELY the case! I was just listening to the Gatecreeper/Iron Reagan split the other day and all that hardcore-esque power chord riffage on Gatecreeper's stuff is very much prevalent. I finally got a physical copy of Necrot's Blood Offerings and there's a few songs on there where you can REALLY hear some hardcore influence. Personally, I think that's the best archetype of death metal. \m/
Yup. Even the early Swedish death metal scene were influenced by punk. Be it the Gothenburg sound or the Stockholm sound. Thomas Lindberg of At the Gates has played for multiple punk bands too like Disfear and Skitsystem.
Whether modern black metallers like it or not, blast beats came from punk and grindcore with Repulsion, Napalm Death, Asocial - Demo 1982, Heresy, Electro Hippies, Siege and early DRI. Even Black Winds from Blasphemy has admitted that he's influenced by Discharge, Doom and GBH and Archgoat were influenced by Carcass first album whom actually started as a Discharge-influenced band known as Disattack before Jeff Walker joined after leaving Electro Hippies and changed the name to Carcass.
@@Raj80191 right? It was way ahead of it's time with the harsh vocals, blast beats. That was like some of the most raw and primitive stuff you could find during that time.
@@VicKrueg yes! Their song "Milk". I highly recommend NYC Mayhem if you're really into SOD. You can definitely hear the influence and yeah, blast beats too.
Every fan of extreme metal needs to listen to Siege. Most extreme shit in any genre for its time, probably. Hardcore punk in general was HUGE for extreme metal.
Qourthon was a weirdo, albeit one of the goats, he omitted a lot of things during his short life such as that his dad owned the record company that he recorded at, not knowing of venom etc but I have a feeling he just wanted to be seen as more original and not another clone band. Ultimately bathory’s sound was so influential that it really didn’t matter. Bands like Sabbat wear their obvious influences from venom, proudly on their sleeve and yet still make kickass music.
Celtic Frost was one band that the punks and metallers always agreed upon. That kinda vibe is the root of the deep genetic crossover of the punk, thrash, black metal crossover imo.
Lemmy’s influences mostly go back way before The Stooges, when he was born rock ‘n’ roll didn’t exist yet. He wanted to be the baddest, loudest rock band in the world and took the influences of like Little Richard, The Beatles, even his time in The Vickers and just added the insanity of biker speed, booze, volume and played it as fast as possible.
Yeah that makes sense, the MC5 was crushing it in those days and I’m sure The Stooges had a part in him deciding to make another band to blast rock ‘n’ roll out of the self indulgent void it had fallen into, especially after getting the boot from Hawkwind. Just saying that he definitely took inspiration from the days as a teen that he saw the genre being birthed, powerful times in the ‘50s that they were trying to recapture in the mid ‘70s.
@@sicksavagelife5680 I was reading the classic rock magazine tribute to lemmy, between motorhead mk 1 and the classic line up lemmy was at one point considering moving to detroit because that's where all the bands he liked came from. Would have been interesting seeing lemmy fronting a detroit garage rock band. guess the closest we ever got to that is the tours he did with dkt/mc5, when he and nicke (from entombed and the hellacopters) filled in for sadly deceased members.
Wish I was around for the days of those tours! Would certainly be interesting Lemmy fronting a garage rock band, hard to picture his voice is so booming it was destined to be over a wall of stacks haha.
I’m from Venom’s hometown (Newcastle, UK) and lived on the same street as the drummer for a few years. So I find it amusing when my favourite bands list them as a main influence.
Venom was heavily influenced by Motörhead basically just a more Evil sloppier version of Motörhead which at the same time also basically meant that they retained the same level of punk influence that people know Motörhead for.
How dare you know I'm awake at the God awful hours of 1:20 AM watching your videos. Kidding. Excited to watch this and think it's a great topic! Great blackened crust metal out there!
@@tonywhite3504 cool fact. At night our brains ruminate on darker things, suicide rates as an example go up by a third late at night. Our brains literally are darker at night.
Another Hardcore punk band (also one of my favorites) that heavily inspired black metal is septic death with their album "now that I have the attention". Fenriz mentioned them as an important influence
Fenriz also likes Deep wound, another gnarly 80s us punk bands, quite funny in some respect considering where their drummer ended up (Dinosaur jr mainman J mascis).
@@diydylana3151 For me it makes me chuckle because J almost seems embarrassed by his Deep wound days-even though he has done a doom metal band since called witch. And your right I mean look at what justin k broadrick is doing now with his multiple project compared to his early napalm days.
i may not know a thing about black metal but i do know about the early phases of punk, and damn is it interesting to hear about what punk rooted itself into! this was a fun watch, i'd love to see you tackle more like this
@@jukeman9291 Amebix is basically motorhead/Hawkwind/black sabbath meets the dark post punk influences of KJ and Joy division. I love KJ one of my fave bands, a band that really got me into record collecting.
I arrived at Black Metal along the reverse path: listening to Crust Punk bands with Black Metal influences called Blackned Crust. I really like Dödsrit, Martyrdöd, Tulpa, Fredag Den 13:e, Skitsystem among others. A Black Metal band from my country (Brazil) that I recommend is Vazio and their "Eterno Aeon Obscuro" album.
Fuck yeah, Recently I have been listening to a lot of Discharge and it only recently became clear how WHY EP and their other early EPs and their classic debut so thoroughly influenced the development of Japanese hardcore, crust and thus Grindcore, death metal, and most obviously THRASH and BLACK metal. They should be recognized alongside Venom and, idk who else is in same league - maybe Black Flag, - as the most influential band of the early 80s on the whole rest of extreme metal’s development.
It would be cool if you talked about random songs (particularly obscure songs) that were ahead of their time sometime in the future. Like for example, the Belgian band Blast only came out with an incredibly ovscure single called Damned Flame/Hope in 1973 and man is it pretty fucking extreme for the time. It’s way too ahead of its time. It’s really one of the earliest links to Metal and Punk.
If you have not listened already I thoroughly recommend Amebix's debut album "Arise" for anyone who likes Black Metal as Hellhammer, Darkthrone and Bathory have sited it as big influence.
G.I.S.M from Japan is another big name/influence. They started as hardcore punk then shifted towards some punk/metal hybrid by blending elements of heavy metal (such as the guitars - probably Iron Maiden is the most immediate reference) into their music. However, their early tracks from 1983 "Death Exclamations" and "Fire" carry a certain proto-black metal aura to it (gruff vocals and rotten sound production - the basic same punkish mould from which Bathory, Venom and Hellhammer took form from). And yes, if these three bands are the fathers of black metal certainly Motörhead is the grandparent. Not only because of the music, but their outfit/aesthetic in general (bullet belts, leather jackets full of pins, dressed in black, the black and white color combination of the band logo/1st album cover etc).
Which black metal bands ever mentioned G.I.S.M? Or are you talking out of your rear? Don't assume that these similarities are as a result of divergent evolution when convergent evolution is possible. Also, Motorhead has about as much relevance on black metal as Metallica does. Everything is related to something at some point, we might as well call Black Sabbath black metal at this point.
@@sothis1448 This band came much after the original black metal bands but Syphilitic Vagginas is heavily influenced by G.I.S.M and Venom. Their black/speed metal sound is very reminiscent to that of those two bands. I think you're referring to the second generation/Norwegian bands being influenced by Metallica. Yes, that would make kind of sense. But here we are referring to the first generation. Metallica worshipped Venom in their early days (you can see old pics of them wearing Venom t-shirts). And yes, Black Sabbath's influence on any metal sub-genre is undeniable and they may be classified as very early black metal, in that sense.
@@sothis1448 ??? They are as old as Bathory's earliest records (1983). To my ears they sound pretty aggressive for the time - maybe due to geographical restrictions/conditions they were not exposed to broader western audiences back then just as, say, Amebix (as they were an English band). It is as debatable as if the aforementioned band was to be considered an early black metal incarnation, as explained in the video. What do you think then?
@@conde_bathory I was referring to Syphilitic not GISM. Like I said, a band developing qualities similar to black metal does not mean it is a part of the evolution of black metal.
Crust Punk and Black Metal are intertwined and I'm tired of people pretending that they're not. I would go so far as to say that Oi! is in the DNA of it.
How? no evidence of this anywhere, even from band members who openly cite hardcore punk as an influence. Similarities are coincidental IMO. You could make a better argument in favour of the US hardcore band United Mutations who had "black/death" vocals back and proto blast beat back in 1982, Nic Bullen (early Napalm Death) cited them as an influence, so it's not impossible that other bands in the extreme music scene knew about them - at least in Europe. People like Scott Carlson (Repulsion) in the US also knew and toured on the hardcore punk circuit in the Genocide days. He tape traded with Chuck Schuldiner and other important figures on the early extreme metal scene in the US, so it's not impossible that it had an impact there as well.
This is a good one. And I've never heard this subject touched on. Even a genre like black metal didn't develop in a vaccuum. I'm always telling friends who don't like punk that their favorite band of the late 80s/90s is most likely into some punk bands. Arch Enemy mentions Crass, Sepultura mentions Discharge, Megadeth mentions the Sex Pistols, and obv Darkthrone mentions Crust. I feel like the Dbeat, a pattern taken from punk, is just as foundational to the sound of metal as much as, if not more, than the blast beat.
Blast beats also come from punk, Boston HC and similar scenes. And harsh vocals. All of these things we consider extreme metal had their origins in harder HC punk scene.
Darkthrone/Fenriz mentions crust only because it suits them to appease more audience possible. In the early years they where influenced by german thrash (check out the Black Death demos), later they got into death metal (check out Darkthrone demos and debut album). With Ablaze, they got into their Celtic Frost-love fest and finally they evolved their trademark blackmetal sound. Later in their career, they started citing some punk and eventually crust influence that they never talked about before... maybe because they never had them.
@@Hell-Awaits Fenriz and Nocturno were personally into punk/HC/crossover stuff much earlier, even before they formed the band, so they carried if not complete sound then at least the DIY punky rawness into their attitude and production. Later, yeah, punk influences became more prominent, which is not at all strange. So, it's definitively and early influence, but not as overt as evidenced later.
Dude your videos inspire me to dive into some good music every time. Idk if I commented this on a different video, but while I’ve always enjoyed extreme music, it hasn’t been till the past few months that I really got into deep diving into these genres and your videos have definitely been a major enhancement along my musical journey. Like why have I been sleeping on these gems for so long 😭
Brilliant explanation, I always talk about punk's influence in metal and the symbiotic relationship punk and metal always had since the NWOBHM, but I know people than don't get this. On You Tube those people are must of the Sea of Tranquility's audience, a huge You Tube channel of a metal and rock fan that doesn't like or understand punk. For me this makes no sense, punk and post punk influenced a lot of subgenres in rock and metal like grindcore, crossover of course, trash, the NWOBM as I mentioned, grunge, alternative metal, shoegaze, it's everywhere. The attitude and emotions expressed in punk and post punk changed music forever.
Black Metal with a slice of punk in its sound was always appealing to me. Things like Impaled Nazarene and Carpathian Forest have a very punk attitude.
gbh, exploited, gism, mdc, discharge, varukers, bathory and hellhammer most definitely [among others] are responsible for alot of rawness at very least.
Being ancient, and my musical tastes starting in punk, that's what attracted me to BM in the first place. A lot of crusties loved, as i did, Venom, Bathory, Hellhammer, early Voivod. And everyone loved Motorhead, of course. Seemed quite natural, too, how the faster hardcore bands fed into thrash metal (I'm thinking Pushead's reviews in Maximum Rock n Roll), as well as early grindcore. In the old tape trading days, we didn't seem too hung up on genre boundaries. First time i heard Deathcrush, it sounded totally like a punk band to me. Whenever Fenriz mentions punk/HC bands, it's usually something i like already (Puke!). No I'm not cool, just old. Finnish hardcore had a particular unhinged edge to it that i could also hear later in Beherit and Imp Naz, even more obscure shit like Dead Reptile Shrine feels punky in its shambolic weirdness.
Thank you for acknowledging punk as an influence of black metal. A lot of "troo" BM fans I've met really hate punk and won't give it a listen. If they knew their roots, they def. would.
One can hate punk because of it's dirth of musicality while recognising the minor influence it played on true black metal. Everything came from something else at some point, that in no way means that everything shares the same quality.
What an interesting topic. I love realizing, after years of listening to certain bm bands, that the influence is kinda surprising if you didnt think of it. Solid video!
Interesting video, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that punk had to have had some kind of influence on black metal. The only difference being that you actually took the time to research and really dig deeper to figure out if that really was the case. Regardless, this only continues to solidify my theory that punk and metal are two sides of the same coin, with how much they have tended to overlap and collide with one another over the course of both genres' histories. It's always fascinating to see how the worlds of metal and punk tend to converge more often than we may initially realize.
Nice one here Wyatt. This prompted me to give Kaoos a listen for the first time and they're great. Could surely give similar credit to the likes of Terveet Kadet, the first album of Ratos De Parao. In fact, Gradyanska Oborona (sic) had stuff in the 80s (particularly their "War" album) that in my mind at least, influenced the sonic outcomes of the Blazebirth Hall bands, despite them having respectively differing worldviews.
I agree with you I've been listening to punk and metal since 1984 I'm 53 now I've even had arguments with so called friends about this topic I chose music thank you for your excellent video and knowledge
There is a pic of Euronymous wearing a cryptic slaughter shirt. I believe Portlands crossover thrash/grindcore outfit Wehrmacht even influenced a lot of BM
Talking about Sarcófago and Brazil in genereal don't forget there was a plenty of extreme hardcore punk in Brazil that days too, not only in Finland (but yeah, Kaaos, Kuolema and many others are the real deal). To name just few there were Olho Seco and foremost Brigada do Ódio which is one of the very first noisecore bands at all. Olho Seco / Brigada do Ódio split LP was released in 1985, the same year legendary noisecore act Seven Minutes of Nausea (7MON) was established in Australia. Talking about Amebix: in one old interview guys from the legendary NY doom (core) band WINTER stated that they are peace punx influenced by bands like Amebix and even they took their name after the "Winter" EP of Amebix. And yes, you can very clearly hear d-beat passages in WINTER's music but barely hear any death metal in it like they are labeled as doom death which is utter nonsense.
I’m just looking back on the first wave of black metal scene for a deeper perspective. One of the common traits I find in the music is a kind of graceless abandon by which the instruments are played. Straight up thrash has that intense energy, but it feels like the train is on the tracks, has direction, and is not falling apart at the seems. First wave black metal bands, regardless of their blend of thrash, speed, black, and death metal, all seem to share this common factor of explosive sound and energy. Except for Mercyful Fate whose music is too refined and more like traditional heavy metal. When I first listened to Discharge, I expected to be blown away. But while the noisy, intense energy and style was there, the riffs just sounded totally like punk riffs to me. I can surmise that metal bands influenced by Discharge liked that raw intense feeling and rough, DIY recording production. But they still took to writing metal riffs and solos. Great insights in your video! Thanks a lot!
Good video, the deeper I’ve gotten into Black Metal the more I’ve learned to appreciate the punk aspects of Black Metal. One newer BM band worth checking out that is very punk-influenced is Крюкокрест (Kruyokokrest) from Russia. Great band.
@Scott If you like Крюкокрест be sure to also check Lair from Ukraine. Both their albums (Black Moldy Brew and Icons of the Impure) are great. I'd really like to know who is behind this band.
@@siebensunden thanks for the recommendation dude, just listened to Black Moldy Brew and it did not disappoint! Great stuff. Will find their second album next
Few things I’ve seen between punk and black metal. Fenriz had a Discharge patch on his denim vest. Dark Kirchensteuer’s Leb’ Doch Selber has some punk riffs for example. We also know Venom had a huge influence on black metal and one of their influences happened to be the Sex Pistols. Surprisingly punk indirectly created NSBM.
punk is how I segued into black metal, explains my affinity for 1st and 2nd wave. like the shirt. I checked out Giles Corey after you talked about it in your top 40 list, can't go a week without listening to it.
@@ben8147 Thanks for the rec, I listened to An Obelisk Marks the Line and I like their sound, but there's not a lot of variety, every song follows the same structure. Then I found out they're NSBM, that's a deal breaker. But, you're on the money with the crossover.
@@ryalwoods1087 They’re incredibly repetitive, some records riff better than others. Some more dynamic outfits, who I’m pretty sure don’t believe in the principles of Adolf Hitler, are Devil Master, Kuka’ili’Moku, and Lament. Some people enjoy Sumpt but I think they’re kind of hit or miss. If you like Oi you might like Sword Breaker.
@@ben8147 okay, you sent me down a rabbit hole with this one. which, thank you very much. Kuka’ili’Moku - yes thx. Sword Breaker - yes thx. I flipped by Devil Master in the past (my prejudice against American bands and some are better heard than seen) but maybe yeah there's something there. Lament is not for me, but in researching I came across a Maltese band, Beheaded, I like at 1st pass. I'll look into them, too (I don't think they have anything to do with Lament except for a defunct name). cheers.
Yeah, bunch of dudes from Sao Pablo in the 80's were listening to an obscure Finnish EP. I am sure that's how it happened seeing how easy was getting music from one dark corner of the world to another.
9:36 You are the one bringing me the concept of "hey maybe TECHNICALLY the first "legit" black metal album is Amoebics" and after listening to it I tend to agree. I'm sure plenty of people will agree with you. So props to wherever or whoever made this observation first because they're onto something. I think you speak the TRUTH that's what's matter!
Mayhem covered some songs of Dead Kennedys in early days. And 2-3 months ago they made Punk cover video and they admiddet there to have Punk influences.
A lot of d-beat/crust punk sounds like Motorhead worship to me. Thanks for bringing this up. I think elitism really is fucking stupid. Generally, people like labels and try really hard to stay within lines that only exist cause people put them there. All this does is limit creativity.
Elitism has its value I never understood people who can wholesale dismiss it sorry. Black metal has it right in that if you are a part of it, you KNOW what's what and what isn't but at the same time, its maybe the most experimental genre ever. You read that correctly. Black metal was also always about breaking its own rules, so its a contradiction that understands things more by emotional connection (this is true to Euronymous himself and his view of black metal being far beyond the idea of "metal", he would say Diamanda Galas could be black metal, I would say Aghast) than a pure line of logic such as Spikes/Satan/Corpse paint=Black metal, although some people don't get it and fall for that trap exactly which many old schoolers mock. Let me put it another way. If you are studying a topic, do you just read whatever you can on the topic, or do you read what is more researched and entrenched in the world to understand the idea?
LOL.. NO.. elitism is a form of quality control. Black Metal is not suppose to be a music genre for the masses music like punk or hardcore. Black Metal is not for the common men and is not a populist form of music. And it's good to keep it that way. I don't want Black Metal to become a safe heaven for humanists morons. We already have post-black metal and RABM which are embarrassments for the whole genre known as Black Metal. We don't need to add more cringe stuff with a form of populist black metal. Elitism is based. Likes it or not its that way and should stay that way, PERIOD.
I always thought Transylvanian Hunger sounded really punk, but wicked trve kvlt at the same time. It's the production; it's like Bikini Kill, fuzzy analog 4-track from 1974. I figured "grim" production was a Varg staple, but old Bathory is on a different lo-fi level, even though I'm pretty sure it was recorded in a studio. Lo-fi production is not compulsory in punk either, but I think it's the component I understand most, and I consider myself a good "punk understander" (see "Boxcar" by Jawbreaker) from a cultural perspective. Transylvanian Hunger back patches *should* be more of an occurrence where punk music happens. I know those other two Darkthrone albums were similarly recorded. Panzerfaust vocal tracks remind me of my first Audacity recordings. That's pretty punk though a lack of reverb blending blows the album's escape for me. Early black metal would have toured with Hardcore bands if they were from the states. My understanding is limited by my not having heard a lot of 70s/80s Scandinavian punk/Hardcore for a level of regional context, but speaking as an enthusiast of punk, I would say black metal has punk roots; even the One Man Black Metal Band thing is pretty punk to me. I'm speaking from a raw philosophy of punk; a philosophy of Hardcore, street rock, and my punk rock lunacy that moves me. The OGs would have called Bathory and Venom "crossover" which is like DRI or Suicidal Tendencies. I don't know if their *spectacle* would have started a lot of beefs with holden caulifield Hardcore kids, but I would die on the hill of Black Metal having roots in punk (I'm one of those weirdos you don't call a "punk" not because "don't label me", but because "punk" is not something you want prison folk to call you, like you'd literally have to fight someone or get . . . well, treated like a punk. I guess that's why I don't capitalize "punk", though being pan sexual where I should embrace punk's LGBT roots, I think my particular style of masculinity wins over being made a bitch in adverse environments. My heteroparallel hypermasculinity is my Dialectical Faustian challenge to humanity).
Life long metal head punk dude. Outside of extreme metal, I could be a bit biased as I am a bit more into punk. Particularly crust/anarcho-punk. I know really no punks who know that Kaaos record! But I have to say this video was pretty fuckin spot on and it’s really cool that you made this video. I’ve noticed black metal cats hating punk, denying that first wave of black meta etc. I rarely comment on UA-cam videos, but you really did a good job on this one. I think it’s particularly dope you talking about Amebix in this. I’ve been saying this for years and everyone I’ve said it disagreed. A few of the Japanese the bands sound almost closer to the later Norwegian stuff than Bathory even. The Extermination EP by Gai being the prime example. Anyways, sorry for the essay. Cheers man!
Black Metal has more to do with punk and other genres than it does metal. Most metalheads I've ever known barely recognized black metal as metal and even I barely recognize it as such. It definitely started off played very punk and even the whole tremolo and blastbeat format feels very punk in concept. Black metal shares a lot in common with hardcore punk genres such as Screamo/SKRAMZ, and a lot of black metal has something indie or Shoegaze behind it even if they aren't Post-Black Metal bands. Also, black metal appeals to people who aren't focused on headbanging and moshing and other common metal tropes, in fact it hardly appeals to Punks on the heavy side and more so punks on the Post-punk side. Black metal is the kind of music you listen to as you sit at a window with a cigarette and stare at the trees. Black metal is more philosophical and political than regular metal. It has more of a punk attitude in it's messaging. Black metal basically fits into the mind of every kind of punk you can think of rather than metalheads. I think metalheads typically like the more traditional metal type of black metal
In some ways yes and some ways no, black metal is based way more on atmosphere, it has a wide range of influences including Kraut rock, and even at its origin had distinct differences in styles. Folk also plays a big part in black metal, even more so than punk I would say, look at Enslaved, the Storm album, and a lot of those Vintersorg/Otyg albums, even early In the Woods and Ulver.
@@patrickbertlein4626 I guess another thing to go with all this is that Black Metal is already similar to punk in that it's not a specific way of playing music, rather it's an idea and a vibe and an aesthetic. That's why both punk and black metal can kinda sound like anything, really. Death metal on the other hand is pretty cut and dry. It's hard to mistake a band as death metal. But you can easily identify a non black metal artist as black metal regardless
@@patrickbertlein4626 Exactly. Punk influences on BM music is obvious. But, second wave of black metal was heavily influenced by traditional european folk music. That's why folk black metal is a thing and acoustic black metal sounds like European folk music (especially slavic folk music) and not surf rock like many idiots thinks. Varg and lots of others of Norwegian musician are really into traditional Norwegian folk music, just thinks about Windir and Storm with Fenriz. Or just look the whole Ukrainian pagan black metal scene with Kroda, Nokturnal Mortum, Paganland, ect. The influences of traditional folk music is obvious.
When someone says punk and black metal my immediate thought is Owls Woods Graves. Their first EP and album are my favorites. I never knew I would have so much fun listening to a combination of these two genres.
Speaking of Hellhammer, I was recently exposed to a band called Witchtrial, that would be a perfect shoe-in for this topic. I have a serious affinity for anything that sounds like its own juiced-up version of hardcore-punk. My two favorite bands of all-time are Superjoint Ritual and Ringworm. Two bands that as far as I'm concerned, are ascended versions of hardcore, in their own way. Hell, if you listen to a lot of newer hardcore bands now, they're pretty much a stone's throw away from being metal bands. And I've definitely heard A LOT of punk-ish riffage in various black metal projects. Behexen, right off the top of my head. Goatwhore may be kind of a stretch as far as "black metal" is concerned but I hear a bit of that in their later works. WITCHAVEN as well. I mean, you can make the argument that wherever you hear a lot of serious power-chord riffage and skank/d-beats together, you're listening to a very evolved state of punk. Anything that generates that kind of moshworthy atmosphere owes punk for its existence, a LOT. Everything kinda' comes full-circle, I guess! \m/
Ringworm, Earth Crisis, Hatebreed, Merauder, Vision Of Disorder and all these "modern hardcore" bands are in reality pure metal. Their whole music is founded on very basic metal riffs repeated over and over and over again. This crap essentially has nothing to do with the original 1980's hardcore of Minor Threat, S.S.D., The F.U.'s, Cause For Alarm, Stark Raving Mad, Negative Approach, Justice League, Uniform Choice, Youth Of Today, Up Front.
@@piotrb8434 I probably should have clarified and said "hardcore bands I've gotten into recently" like Protocol, Tower 7, Warthog. There's a UA-cam channel called No Deal, who's provided like 70% of the hardcore stuff I've gotten into as of late. Some of the bands on there slip into crossover-thrash and sludge, somewhat regularly, over the course of a release.
@@piotrb8434 The problem with saying that is heavy hardcore gradually evolved out of that first wave hardcore, even if it relied on borrowing from the slow parts from crossover thrash quite a bit. The whole metallic hardcore thing was around well before the 80s were over; bands like Agnostic Front, Warzone and Sick of it All and a bunch of those heavier NYHC bands date to the mid 80s or earlier. It comes off like you're complaining about slow, heavy hardcore even though it's been part of hardcore almost since the beginning. I prefer the faster stuff over a lot of the slower, more meathead stuff but it's not as though that meathead strain hasn't been part of hardcore for longer than hardcore has existed as a distinct genre. Some of those metallic elements were just borrowed back anyways, especially anything involving a skank beat.
MC5 was a huge influence on Motorhead as well. Bathory's first album was hugely influenced by GBH "City Baby Attacked by Rats" album. Punk was most definitely an influence on early Death SS and on Sagatrakavashen (who called their music "Black Hardcore") as well. Punk was a huge influence on Venom as well, not jus through Motorhead. No Punk=No BM, as simple as that. Punkless "bm" sounds pretty terrible, to me anyway.
@@mflambert Damn, "the spell of the winter forest" is an absolute masterpiece. Thanks for the recommendation, I'm going to check out the rest of their discography now.
@TheBlackVomit I'm not 100% sure it was them but either way its majestic. The lead singer didn't get along with the rest of the band btw and tried to kill them quite often. According to the tales I've read.
I have always been torn between punk and metal, motorhead great example, Whiskey ritual is super fun to, and discharge rules great job whyatt And death crush is great
Lol i was listening to Abigail’s Satanik metal fucking hell, D Beat goin crazy and see your vid on the bottom about punk influences XD talk about perfect timing
Hellhammer influences were mainly the NWOBHM bands like Angel Witch (demo and especially the song Extermination Day), Crucifixion (cool song name?), Raven, More, Witchfynde, and of course Venom & early Iron Maiden. And some bands from Belgium, Netherlands like Picture, Killer etc. They even take their artist names from the NWOBHM bands, like "Day" and "Stratton", "According to the book Only Death Is Real his stage name Bruce Day was inspired by Paul Mario Day and Brian Day of the NWOBHM band More.", Stratton comes from the Iron Maiden guitarist. The Only Death is Real book is excellent reading, recommended for fans of Heavy Metal! Of course there was influence from hardcore punk, like Discharge, and someone said Crude S.S, but their EP was released in 1985 (recorded in 84), when Hellhammer was already done. Good EP by the way. The best and honest Hellhammer clone bands will ever be Warhammer from Germany and Apocalyptic Raids from Brazil. Carpathian Forest did very Hellhammerish riffs on their demo and MCD. Angel Witch Extermination Day: ua-cam.com/video/K0jCHlF8hTM/v-deo.html
Tom G Warrior block is also interesting, notice the Raven and Hellhammer logos on their jackets, Witchfynde, Iron Maiden, Angel Witch patches on vests: fischerisdead.blogspot.com/2020/10/then-and-now-hellhammers-haunts.html Talking about under rated bands, if one is, it is RAVEN. That band invented practically Thrash/Speed Metal and influenced bands like Hellhammer, Venom, and Metallica. Not a bad achievement.
Grew up listening to Punk and 60/70 Rock. Naturally i liked stuff like Metallica/Slayer as a teen but things took a turn when i discovered Celtic Frost. They actually got me into Crust which at the time i had no clue existed.
Well said good breakdown. In high school I grew up listening to rock n roll, glam, punk, and post punk. I have never really been into metal. Recently I have been finding myself listening to more and more black metal and I can hear a lot of D-beat in it. That mayhem ep is amazing to me bc it sounds so punk. I think BM might be the only genre of metal I actually enjoy. I love the cold miserable sound of BM. The fast chords they use is very punk. Also I love all that weird grunting and groaning for vocals. Also love how BM promotes paganism and nature that’s pretty cool
Punk contributed a little to early black metal, it was not a cornerstone of the genre after the "Norwegian" era. I was in an early '80's punk band, a thrash metal band after that and years later I would start an underground black/death metal label that released a handful of projects. Punk had far less to do with bm as whole, then people want to give credit. Punk was a greater influence on thrash era meta...
Venom is def influenced by Sex Pistols. In some interview, Cronos said that he lied that Johnny Rotten was his father, altough he (Johnny) was older 6 years. He even copied his accent
Good video- it's interesting seeing people say and basically argue with Fenriz of all people on the topic that Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, etc. isn't black metal when Darkthrone has built the VAST majority of their discography based on Celtic Frost riffs and vocals since Panzerfaust. And, like, listen to Amebix's Axeman and tell me you don't hear the parallels in both style and atmosphere.
Also, CF covering Mexican Radio has to be a punk mindset of making fans mad by doing something no one expected, a song no one would associate with them, to open an album that greatly departs their earlier work that they knew people would be turned off by.
The sad part is that Fenriz is partially responsible with that bullshit "true black" that he came up with...he said many times that he regrets it somehow
Basically to summarize it Take Motörheads speed and more rhythmic playing Then take Sabbaths level of heaviness and doom/distortion And combine it with a bunch of Punk and you got 1st Wave Black Metal or basically just early Extreme Metal (Thrash)
Interesting to hear a perspective from a person who didnt live through the 80-00's procession of metal. Black metal is the most punk of the metal family tree.
Well, punk was always there in black metal, obviously. And no need to take so long journeys to prove the point, I mean just play any riff of Hellhammer a bit slower and ask a noobie who's riff is that and he'll guess any hard rock or 70s punk band, but not a metal name. Also untill "Possessed" Venom barely had metal riffs, these were punk riffs just played so harshly and dirty they became heavy. Early Sodom drew obvious influences from the West-German HC scene of the time. It was just the fact that subcultures didn't cross until the 90s that stopped them from openly playing together and mix the genres.
This is why Fenriz and Nocturno took Darkthrone in the more punky direction. To play what they wanted to hear and to show all the Darkthrone and Burzum clones the roots of black metal.
"You think old school is 1993"
@@twerktospec and you have ?
Fist generation black metal is early 80’s the first two Drakthrone albums Fenriz calls death metal albums and was influenced by the Death band . Fans called it black metal but to Fenriz it’s what he thinks it is which he still credits as death metal. I will give you that Dark thrones and black flags has a crust punk feel to it.
No they did it because Darkthrone became a commercial project no longer committed to true black metal.
@@sothis1448 what the fuck is true black metal there is no such thing before there was the term black metal everyone just called it thrash metal. really Brazilians came up with what everyone copied at least the blast beats in black metal as well some of the guitar riffs which Darkthrone was influenced by. Black metal was also influenced by Crust punk even early members of Mayhem played crust punk before playing black metal. All this is just influenced by either punk rock or heavy metal. The blast beat everyone uses now really comes from Napalm Death which is Grindcore
@@992ras It's True Norwegian Black Metal or Norsk Arisk Svart Metall (Norwegian Aryan Black Metal) as Darkthrone would say, several bands used this term.
Punk is an influence, just as ambient music , techno music, progressive rock, heavy metal, thrash metal or proto-death metal is an influence. So why are you selectively mentioning punk as if it were the sole influence?
Incubus (sarcófago's bass player) once said in an interview that he listened to Bad Brains a lot. so, yeah, the punk influence is everywhere.
Bad brains suck.
@@grindfreakmike5754 yes, but it's still an influence.
@koala then, in a bad way plus i never hear any black metal that sounds like crappy punk or could id been influenced by it.
@@grindfreakmike5754 bad way? not necessarily. Wagner Ödegård and Akitsa are good BM bands clearly influenced by punk. just listen to their drum beats and even riffs.
@koala just hearing their names makes me think their crap and usually im right.
I always thought that "true" was some sort of Hip-Hop "keeping it real" but for Black Metal. A way of saying that they're not in for the money but to spread their honest message. Either that or announcing that they and their music are exactly what the lyrics suggest and are in fact not fake "evil" or fake theistic-Satanists like other bands.
That alone should be a video, the similarities between gangster rap and black metal.
@@patrickbertlein4626 totally agree. gangsta rap/trap and black metal are my two favorite types of music. both dangerous genres characterized by similar themes.
@@genocidaltriumph4771 Shit if you ever go to Seattle, check out Daybreak records. The owner is a massive fan of both!
@@patrickbertlein4626 that and the crossover that is crypthop
To be fair, Black Metal isn't dangerous at all, it's mostly just nerds in the genre with a few of them being murderous kunts like what, forty years ago
OG black metal was basically just crust played with blastbeats and higher cords. That’s why you always see black metal bands wearing crust shirts. Also most of the best crust comes from Scandinavia.
Lots of death metal has been influenced by punk/hardcore/grindcore too, like Dying Fetus, Gatecreeper, Nunslaughter, Outer Heaven, Misery Index etc.
THAT is ABSOLUTELY the case! I was just listening to the Gatecreeper/Iron Reagan split the other day and all that hardcore-esque power chord riffage on Gatecreeper's stuff is very much prevalent. I finally got a physical copy of Necrot's Blood Offerings and there's a few songs on there where you can REALLY hear some hardcore influence. Personally, I think that's the best archetype of death metal. \m/
100% don't forget crust and powerviolence
pretty much any death metal with a lot of D-beat is influenced some way or another by punk, that's a lot of bands for sure!
@@Vladi306 I feel like Gatecreeper and Iron Reagan are hardcore bands that one day decided to play metal
Yup. Even the early Swedish death metal scene were influenced by punk. Be it the Gothenburg sound or the Stockholm sound. Thomas Lindberg of At the Gates has played for multiple punk bands too like Disfear and Skitsystem.
Whether modern black metallers like it or not, blast beats came from punk and grindcore with Repulsion, Napalm Death, Asocial - Demo 1982, Heresy, Electro Hippies, Siege and early DRI. Even Black Winds from Blasphemy has admitted that he's influenced by Discharge, Doom and GBH and Archgoat were influenced by Carcass first album whom actually started as a Discharge-influenced band known as Disattack before Jeff Walker joined after leaving Electro Hippies and changed the name to Carcass.
Fucking Siege dude. I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they released something like Drop Dead all the way back in '84.
@@Raj80191 right? It was way ahead of it's time with the harsh vocals, blast beats. That was like some of the most raw and primitive stuff you could find during that time.
SOD
@@VicKrueg yes! Their song "Milk". I highly recommend NYC Mayhem if you're really into SOD. You can definitely hear the influence and yeah, blast beats too.
Every fan of extreme metal needs to listen to Siege. Most extreme shit in any genre for its time, probably. Hardcore punk in general was HUGE for extreme metal.
Quorthon stated that Motörhead, GBH and Discharge were influence on their first album. All that lo fi DIY recordings came from punk
He also lied saying he never heard of venom. But when he did an interview for MTV he slipped up and mentioned venom and that they influenced him alot.
Qourthon was a weirdo, albeit one of the goats, he omitted a lot of things during his short life such as that his dad owned the record company that he recorded at, not knowing of venom etc but I have a feeling he just wanted to be seen as more original and not another clone band. Ultimately bathory’s sound was so influential that it really didn’t matter. Bands like Sabbat wear their obvious influences from venom, proudly on their sleeve and yet still make kickass music.
Celtic Frost was one band that the punks and metallers always agreed upon. That kinda vibe is the root of the deep genetic crossover of the punk, thrash, black metal crossover imo.
Lemmy’s influences mostly go back way before The Stooges, when he was born rock ‘n’ roll didn’t exist yet. He wanted to be the baddest, loudest rock band in the world and took the influences of like Little Richard, The Beatles, even his time in The Vickers and just added the insanity of biker speed, booze, volume and played it as fast as possible.
He wanted to be and i quote "the british mc5".
Yeah that makes sense, the MC5 was crushing it in those days and I’m sure The Stooges had a part in him deciding to make another band to blast rock ‘n’ roll out of the self indulgent void it had fallen into, especially after getting the boot from Hawkwind. Just saying that he definitely took inspiration from the days as a teen that he saw the genre being birthed, powerful times in the ‘50s that they were trying to recapture in the mid ‘70s.
@@sicksavagelife5680 I was reading the classic rock magazine tribute to lemmy, between motorhead mk 1 and the classic line up lemmy was at one point considering moving to detroit because that's where all the bands he liked came from. Would have been interesting seeing lemmy fronting a detroit garage rock band. guess the closest we ever got to that is the tours he did with dkt/mc5, when he and nicke (from entombed and the hellacopters) filled in for sadly deceased members.
Wish I was around for the days of those tours! Would certainly be interesting Lemmy fronting a garage rock band, hard to picture his voice is so booming it was destined to be over a wall of stacks haha.
The Rocking Vicars, genius.
Venom : LONG HAIRED PUNKS .....
I’m from Venom’s hometown (Newcastle, UK) and lived on the same street as the drummer for a few years. So I find it amusing when my favourite bands list them as a main influence.
heard they're a really nice bunch of lads and absolutely hilarious to be around - that being said their influence is HUGE
Venom was heavily influenced by Motörhead basically just a more Evil sloppier version of Motörhead
which at the same time also basically meant that they retained the same level of punk influence that people know Motörhead for.
Carpathian Forest has a bit of punk in there.
hi Riky
@@spergerkang5291 hello!
Quorthon from Bathory was into oi punk. Early Bathory sounds a bit like GHB.
GBH were one of their infuences.
You should push Mike The Music Snob into a locker.
How dare you know I'm awake at the God awful hours of 1:20 AM watching your videos.
Kidding. Excited to watch this and think it's a great topic! Great blackened crust metal out there!
1:20 AM… dat’s part of the witching hours of the night… enjoy!
@@tonywhite3504 cool fact. At night our brains ruminate on darker things, suicide rates as an example go up by a third late at night. Our brains literally are darker at night.
Another Hardcore punk band (also one of my favorites) that heavily inspired black metal is septic death with their album "now that I have the attention". Fenriz mentioned them as an important influence
yes, very good band - their track "Fear" has a riff that's very close to Mayhem's Freezing moon!
Fenriz also likes Deep wound, another gnarly 80s us punk bands, quite funny in some respect considering where their drummer ended up (Dinosaur jr mainman J mascis).
That is a great album. The Japanese hardcore from that time was also insane. Check out the bands gism, lip cream and gauze
@@CoomerGremlinDGGfan Confuse is another great one, some really aggressive and noisy punk!
@@diydylana3151 For me it makes me chuckle because J almost seems embarrassed by his Deep wound days-even though he has done a doom metal band since called witch. And your right I mean look at what justin k broadrick is doing now with his multiple project compared to his early napalm days.
Giles Corey is fucking underrated. 'I want to feel the way I feel when I am asleep' was a sentence that hit on a whole new level.
i may not know a thing about black metal but i do know about the early phases of punk, and damn is it interesting to hear about what punk rooted itself into! this was a fun watch, i'd love to see you tackle more like this
I never thought I’d see u here !!
Amebix was a huge influence on all heavy music, including black metal :)
And Amebix got their riffing style from Killing Joke...so are KJ the TRVE godfathers of black metal?
@@jukeman9291 Amebix is basically motorhead/Hawkwind/black sabbath meets the dark post punk influences of KJ and Joy division. I love KJ one of my fave bands, a band that really got me into record collecting.
Nope.
@@Hell-Awaits Celtic Frost disagree with you.
@@jukeman9291 Slayer, Kreator, Sodom, Dark Angel and a shitload of thrash/death/black bands agree, though. Keep the change, dude.
I arrived at Black Metal along the reverse path: listening to Crust Punk bands with Black Metal influences called Blackned Crust. I really like Dödsrit, Martyrdöd, Tulpa, Fredag Den 13:e, Skitsystem among others.
A Black Metal band from my country (Brazil) that I recommend is Vazio and their "Eterno Aeon Obscuro" album.
Fuck yeah, Recently I have been listening to a lot of Discharge and it only recently became clear how WHY EP and their other early EPs and their classic debut so thoroughly influenced the development of Japanese hardcore, crust and thus Grindcore, death metal, and most obviously THRASH and BLACK metal. They should be recognized alongside Venom and, idk who else is in same league - maybe Black Flag, - as the most influential band of the early 80s on the whole rest of extreme metal’s development.
So you just recently discovered what the world already knew for decades... congratulations.
@@piotrb8434 hey THANKS man!
@@piotrb8434 imagine a person learning something you know already, bizarre
@@phlegm5596 Imagine thinking how cool you are because you know something other's don't.
Bathory has to be the most influencial early '80s band for Black Metal.
It would be cool if you talked about random songs (particularly obscure songs) that were ahead of their time sometime in the future. Like for example, the Belgian band Blast only came out with an incredibly ovscure single called Damned Flame/Hope in 1973 and man is it pretty fucking extreme for the time. It’s way too ahead of its time. It’s really one of the earliest links to Metal and Punk.
Got to love crust punk's (and traditional punk) influence on metal, it's a very filthy raw style that gave birth to all sorts of killer bands.
If you have not listened already I thoroughly recommend Amebix's debut album "Arise" for anyone who likes Black Metal as Hellhammer, Darkthrone and Bathory have sited it as big influence.
I definitely heard the punkiness in my first encounter with Deathcrush, and its probably my favorite thing by Mayhem. Punkthrone is pretty cool also.
"Bathory is an attempt to amalgamate the gloom of Black Sabbath, the sound of Motörhead and the newly found frenzy of GBH." Quorthon
G.I.S.M from Japan is another big name/influence. They started as hardcore punk then shifted towards some punk/metal hybrid by blending elements of heavy metal (such as the guitars - probably Iron Maiden is the most immediate reference) into their music. However, their early tracks from 1983 "Death Exclamations" and "Fire" carry a certain proto-black metal aura to it (gruff vocals and rotten sound production - the basic same punkish mould from which Bathory, Venom and Hellhammer took form from).
And yes, if these three bands are the fathers of black metal certainly Motörhead is the grandparent. Not only because of the music, but their outfit/aesthetic in general (bullet belts, leather jackets full of pins, dressed in black, the black and white color combination of the band logo/1st album cover etc).
Which black metal bands ever mentioned G.I.S.M? Or are you talking out of your rear? Don't assume that these similarities are as a result of divergent evolution when convergent evolution is possible.
Also, Motorhead has about as much relevance on black metal as Metallica does. Everything is related to something at some point, we might as well call Black Sabbath black metal at this point.
@@sothis1448 This band came much after the original black metal bands but Syphilitic Vagginas is heavily influenced by G.I.S.M and Venom. Their black/speed metal sound is very reminiscent to that of those two bands.
I think you're referring to the second generation/Norwegian bands being influenced by Metallica. Yes, that would make kind of sense. But here we are referring to the first generation. Metallica worshipped Venom in their early days (you can see old pics of them wearing Venom t-shirts). And yes, Black Sabbath's influence on any metal sub-genre is undeniable and they may be classified as very early black metal, in that sense.
@@conde_bathory So you are able to admit that it's actually not an influence to black metal other than in modern joke imitation bands.
@@sothis1448 ???
They are as old as Bathory's earliest records (1983). To my ears they sound pretty aggressive for the time - maybe due to geographical restrictions/conditions they were not exposed to broader western audiences back then just as, say, Amebix (as they were an English band). It is as debatable as if the aforementioned band was to be considered an early black metal incarnation, as explained in the video. What do you think then?
@@conde_bathory I was referring to Syphilitic not GISM.
Like I said, a band developing qualities similar to black metal does not mean it is a part of the evolution of black metal.
Discharge and Motorhead are the seeds from which extreme metal grew.
Punk and metal….the best genres in rocknroll. Can’t have one without the other!
As i see it Punk is the root of all extreme music, even thought Metal existed before it was more Blues/Hard-Rock like Black Sabbath or Judas Priest.
Yes, because blast beats came from punk
Crust Punk and Black Metal are intertwined and I'm tired of people pretending that they're not. I would go so far as to say that Oi! is in the DNA of it.
I think GISM influenced a lot of early black metal
Their track “Fire” sounds kind of like 2nd wave BM despite being put out in 1984.
How? no evidence of this anywhere, even from band members who openly cite hardcore punk as an influence. Similarities are coincidental IMO.
You could make a better argument in favour of the US hardcore band United Mutations who had "black/death" vocals back and proto blast beat back in 1982, Nic Bullen (early Napalm Death) cited them as an influence, so it's not impossible that other bands in the extreme music scene knew about them - at least in Europe. People like Scott Carlson (Repulsion) in the US also knew and toured on the hardcore punk circuit in the Genocide days. He tape traded with Chuck Schuldiner and other important figures on the early extreme metal scene in the US, so it's not impossible that it had an impact there as well.
@@wewuzwolves4428 Swedish and Japanese hardcore were on a different level in the early 80s
@@Raj80191 No doubt
saveki sounds like quorthon on the M.A.N album
This is a good one. And I've never heard this subject touched on.
Even a genre like black metal didn't develop in a vaccuum. I'm always telling friends who don't like punk that their favorite band of the late 80s/90s is most likely into some punk bands. Arch Enemy mentions Crass, Sepultura mentions Discharge, Megadeth mentions the Sex Pistols, and obv Darkthrone mentions Crust.
I feel like the Dbeat, a pattern taken from punk, is just as foundational to the sound of metal as much as, if not more, than the blast beat.
Blast beats also come from punk, Boston HC and similar scenes. And harsh vocals. All of these things we consider extreme metal had their origins in harder HC punk scene.
Darkthrone/Fenriz mentions crust only because it suits them to appease more audience possible. In the early years they where influenced by german thrash (check out the Black Death demos), later they got into death metal (check out Darkthrone demos and debut album). With Ablaze, they got into their Celtic Frost-love fest and finally they evolved their trademark blackmetal sound.
Later in their career, they started citing some punk and eventually crust influence that they never talked about before... maybe because they never had them.
@@Hell-Awaits Fenriz and Nocturno were personally into punk/HC/crossover stuff much earlier, even before they formed the band, so they carried if not complete sound then at least the DIY punky rawness into their attitude and production. Later, yeah, punk influences became more prominent, which is not at all strange. So, it's definitively and early influence, but not as overt as evidenced later.
Dude your videos inspire me to dive into some good music every time. Idk if I commented this on a different video, but while I’ve always enjoyed extreme music, it hasn’t been till the past few months that I really got into deep diving into these genres and your videos have definitely been a major enhancement along my musical journey. Like why have I been sleeping on these gems for so long 😭
Brilliant explanation, I always talk about punk's influence in metal and the symbiotic relationship punk and metal always had since the NWOBHM, but I know people than don't get this. On You Tube those people are must of the Sea of Tranquility's audience, a huge You Tube channel of a metal and rock fan that doesn't like or understand punk. For me this makes no sense, punk and post punk influenced a lot of subgenres in rock and metal like grindcore, crossover of course, trash, the NWOBM as I mentioned, grunge, alternative metal, shoegaze, it's everywhere. The attitude and emotions expressed in punk and post punk changed music forever.
Bruh this guy is great i always look forward to each video he pops out
Black Metal with a slice of punk in its sound was always appealing to me. Things like Impaled Nazarene and Carpathian Forest have a very punk attitude.
Considering Venom literally is like just a more evil version of Motörhead it still retains the same level of Punk influence that Motörhead had.
gbh, exploited, gism, mdc, discharge, varukers, bathory and hellhammer most definitely [among others] are responsible for alot of rawness at very least.
Being ancient, and my musical tastes starting in punk, that's what attracted me to BM in the first place. A lot of crusties loved, as i did, Venom, Bathory, Hellhammer, early Voivod. And everyone loved Motorhead, of course. Seemed quite natural, too, how the faster hardcore bands fed into thrash metal (I'm thinking Pushead's reviews in Maximum Rock n Roll), as well as early grindcore. In the old tape trading days, we didn't seem too hung up on genre boundaries.
First time i heard Deathcrush, it sounded totally like a punk band to me.
Whenever Fenriz mentions punk/HC bands, it's usually something i like already (Puke!). No I'm not cool, just old.
Finnish hardcore had a particular unhinged edge to it that i could also hear later in Beherit and Imp Naz, even more obscure shit like Dead Reptile Shrine feels punky in its shambolic weirdness.
Thank you for acknowledging punk as an influence of black metal. A lot of "troo" BM fans I've met really hate punk and won't give it a listen. If they knew their roots, they def. would.
If those "troo" BM fans hate punk they probably also hate Ildjarn. :)
@@siebensunden What do you mean?
@@patrickbertlein4626 I mean by that that Ildjarn is black metal highly infused with punk.
Don't know who you know but lots of BM fans i knows listen to RAC / Oi! and right wing punk and also lots of traditional European folk music.
One can hate punk because of it's dirth of musicality while recognising the minor influence it played on true black metal. Everything came from something else at some point, that in no way means that everything shares the same quality.
“As nerdy as that is” lol
What an interesting topic. I love realizing, after years of listening to certain bm bands, that the influence is kinda surprising if you didnt think of it. Solid video!
Interesting video, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that punk had to have had some kind of influence on black metal. The only difference being that you actually took the time to research and really dig deeper to figure out if that really was the case. Regardless, this only continues to solidify my theory that punk and metal are two sides of the same coin, with how much they have tended to overlap and collide with one another over the course of both genres' histories. It's always fascinating to see how the worlds of metal and punk tend to converge more often than we may initially realize.
Nice one here Wyatt. This prompted me to give Kaoos a listen for the first time and they're great.
Could surely give similar credit to the likes of Terveet Kadet, the first album of Ratos De Parao.
In fact, Gradyanska Oborona (sic) had stuff in the 80s (particularly their "War" album) that in my mind at least, influenced the sonic outcomes of the Blazebirth Hall bands, despite them having respectively differing worldviews.
Fun fact: first name of Napalm Death was Civil Defense which means “Grazhdanskaya Oborona” in russian :)
Amebix was very ahead of its time. Love that band
PREACH! I've always thought as black metal as just a souped-up version of punk, especially really raw stuff from Darkthrone.
I agree with you I've been listening to punk and metal since 1984 I'm 53 now I've even had arguments with so called friends about this topic I chose music thank you for your excellent video and knowledge
There is a pic of Euronymous wearing a cryptic slaughter shirt. I believe Portlands crossover thrash/grindcore outfit Wehrmacht even influenced a lot of BM
Talking about Sarcófago and Brazil in genereal don't forget there was a plenty of extreme hardcore punk in Brazil that days too, not only in Finland (but yeah, Kaaos, Kuolema and many others are the real deal). To name just few there were Olho Seco and foremost Brigada do Ódio which is one of the very first noisecore bands at all. Olho Seco / Brigada do Ódio split LP was released in 1985, the same year legendary noisecore act Seven Minutes of Nausea (7MON) was established in Australia.
Talking about Amebix: in one old interview guys from the legendary NY doom (core) band WINTER stated that they are peace punx influenced by bands like Amebix and even they took their name after the "Winter" EP of Amebix. And yes, you can very clearly hear d-beat passages in WINTER's music but barely hear any death metal in it like they are labeled as doom death which is utter nonsense.
Most people forget that Brazil played a huge part in the black metal scene. Pioneers really.
I’m just looking back on the first wave of black metal scene for a deeper perspective. One of the common traits I find in the music is a kind of graceless abandon by which the instruments are played. Straight up thrash has that intense energy, but it feels like the train is on the tracks, has direction, and is not falling apart at the seems. First wave black metal bands, regardless of their blend of thrash, speed, black, and death metal, all seem to share this common factor of explosive sound and energy. Except for Mercyful Fate whose music is too refined and more like traditional heavy metal.
When I first listened to Discharge, I expected to be blown away. But while the noisy, intense energy and style was there, the riffs just sounded totally like punk riffs to me.
I can surmise that metal bands influenced by Discharge liked that raw intense feeling and rough, DIY recording production. But they still took to writing metal riffs and solos.
Great insights in your video! Thanks a lot!
Good video, the deeper I’ve gotten into Black Metal the more I’ve learned to appreciate the punk aspects of Black Metal.
One newer BM band worth checking out that is very punk-influenced is Крюкокрест (Kruyokokrest) from Russia. Great band.
@Scott If you like Крюкокрест be sure to also check Lair from Ukraine. Both their albums (Black Moldy Brew and Icons of the Impure) are great. I'd really like to know who is behind this band.
@@siebensunden thanks for the recommendation dude, just listened to Black Moldy Brew and it did not disappoint! Great stuff. Will find their second album next
@@FlashmanVC I'm glad you like it.
Крюкокрест is solid. You should check out the second two demos from Strongblood
Few things I’ve seen between punk and black metal. Fenriz had a Discharge patch on his denim vest. Dark Kirchensteuer’s Leb’ Doch Selber has some punk riffs for example. We also know Venom had a huge influence on black metal and one of their influences happened to be the Sex Pistols. Surprisingly punk indirectly created NSBM.
There were NS punk bands already in the 1970's.
Punk created crust to make-up up for Nazi punks.
@@piotrb8434 not really. Ns didn't become a thing till the 80s
@@CoomerGremlinDGGfan You don't know shit. NS was a thing in 1920's already. There were nazi punk bands in 1978-79 like The Dentists and The Ventz.
@@piotrb8434 I did forget to mention punk did have RAC and Nazi punk too lol.
punk is how I segued into black metal, explains my affinity for 1st and 2nd wave.
like the shirt. I checked out Giles Corey after you talked about it in your top 40 list, can't go a week without listening to it.
have you listened to Bone Awl?
@@ben8147 Thanks for the rec, I listened to An Obelisk Marks the Line and I like their sound, but there's not a lot of variety, every song follows the same structure. Then I found out they're NSBM, that's a deal breaker. But, you're on the money with the crossover.
@@ryalwoods1087 They’re incredibly repetitive, some records riff better than others. Some more dynamic outfits, who I’m pretty sure don’t believe in the principles of Adolf Hitler, are Devil Master, Kuka’ili’Moku, and Lament. Some people enjoy Sumpt but I think they’re kind of hit or miss. If you like Oi you might like Sword Breaker.
@@ben8147 okay, you sent me down a rabbit hole with this one. which, thank you very much. Kuka’ili’Moku - yes thx. Sword Breaker - yes thx. I flipped by Devil Master in the past (my prejudice against American bands and some are better heard than seen) but maybe yeah there's something there. Lament is not for me, but in researching I came across a Maltese band, Beheaded, I like at 1st pass. I'll look into them, too (I don't think they have anything to do with Lament except for a defunct name). cheers.
Sick Madonna vinyl bro.
Yeah, bunch of dudes from Sao Pablo in the 80's were listening to an obscure Finnish EP. I am sure that's how it happened seeing how easy was getting music from one dark corner of the world to another.
Tape trading was common in the 80s extreme metal scene.
@@skaldlouiscyphre2453 Even then, the odds of that happening are slim to none. You don't understand living in South America.
9:36 You are the one bringing me the concept of "hey maybe TECHNICALLY the first "legit" black metal album is Amoebics" and after listening to it I tend to agree. I'm sure plenty of people will agree with you. So props to wherever or whoever made this observation first because they're onto something. I think you speak the TRUTH that's what's matter!
Winter Ep from Amebix is one of the first albuns to use the second wave formula. Even before Bathory
Mayhem covered some songs of Dead Kennedys in early days. And 2-3 months ago they made Punk cover video and they admiddet there to have Punk influences.
Btw Maniac’s vocal line there is the best cover of Jello Biafra’s vocals
A lot of d-beat/crust punk sounds like Motorhead worship to me. Thanks for bringing this up.
I think elitism really is fucking stupid. Generally, people like labels and try really hard to stay within lines that only exist cause people put them there. All this does is limit creativity.
Elitism has its value I never understood people who can wholesale dismiss it sorry. Black metal has it right in that if you are a part of it, you KNOW what's what and what isn't but at the same time, its maybe the most experimental genre ever. You read that correctly. Black metal was also always about breaking its own rules, so its a contradiction that understands things more by emotional connection (this is true to Euronymous himself and his view of black metal being far beyond the idea of "metal", he would say Diamanda Galas could be black metal, I would say Aghast) than a pure line of logic such as Spikes/Satan/Corpse paint=Black metal, although some people don't get it and fall for that trap exactly which many old schoolers mock.
Let me put it another way. If you are studying a topic, do you just read whatever you can on the topic, or do you read what is more researched and entrenched in the world to understand the idea?
LOL.. NO.. elitism is a form of quality control. Black Metal is not suppose to be a music genre for the masses music like punk or hardcore. Black Metal is not for the common men and is not a populist form of music. And it's good to keep it that way. I don't want Black Metal to become a safe heaven for humanists morons. We already have post-black metal and RABM which are embarrassments for the whole genre known as Black Metal. We don't need to add more cringe stuff with a form of populist black metal. Elitism is based. Likes it or not its that way and should stay that way, PERIOD.
@@GrossePutea5Dollards K
I always thought Transylvanian Hunger sounded really punk, but wicked trve kvlt at the same time. It's the production; it's like Bikini Kill, fuzzy analog 4-track from 1974. I figured "grim" production was a Varg staple, but old Bathory is on a different lo-fi level, even though I'm pretty sure it was recorded in a studio. Lo-fi production is not compulsory in punk either, but I think it's the component I understand most, and I consider myself a good "punk understander" (see "Boxcar" by Jawbreaker) from a cultural perspective. Transylvanian Hunger back patches *should* be more of an occurrence where punk music happens. I know those other two Darkthrone albums were similarly recorded. Panzerfaust vocal tracks remind me of my first Audacity recordings. That's pretty punk though a lack of reverb blending blows the album's escape for me. Early black metal would have toured with Hardcore bands if they were from the states. My understanding is limited by my not having heard a lot of 70s/80s Scandinavian punk/Hardcore for a level of regional context, but speaking as an enthusiast of punk, I would say black metal has punk roots; even the One Man Black Metal Band thing is pretty punk to me. I'm speaking from a raw philosophy of punk; a philosophy of Hardcore, street rock, and my punk rock lunacy that moves me. The OGs would have called Bathory and Venom "crossover" which is like DRI or Suicidal Tendencies. I don't know if their *spectacle* would have started a lot of beefs with holden caulifield Hardcore kids, but I would die on the hill of Black Metal having roots in punk (I'm one of those weirdos you don't call a "punk" not because "don't label me", but because "punk" is not something you want prison folk to call you, like you'd literally have to fight someone or get . . . well, treated like a punk. I guess that's why I don't capitalize "punk", though being pan sexual where I should embrace punk's LGBT roots, I think my particular style of masculinity wins over being made a bitch in adverse environments. My heteroparallel hypermasculinity is my Dialectical Faustian challenge to humanity).
No one cares.
"trve kvlt" The mark of a poser right there.
Life long metal head punk dude. Outside of extreme metal, I could be a bit biased as I am a bit more into punk. Particularly crust/anarcho-punk. I know really no punks who know that Kaaos record! But I have to say this video was pretty fuckin spot on and it’s really cool that you made this video. I’ve noticed black metal cats hating punk, denying that first wave of black meta etc. I rarely comment on UA-cam videos, but you really did a good job on this one. I think it’s particularly dope you talking about Amebix in this. I’ve been saying this for years and everyone I’ve said it disagreed. A few of the Japanese the bands sound almost closer to the later Norwegian stuff than Bathory even. The Extermination EP by Gai being the prime example. Anyways, sorry for the essay. Cheers man!
Japan had/has one of the coolest crust scenes. If anyone's reading this who hasn't dived in yet, look it up!
Nothing is born in a vacuum. It's always built upon a previous idea.
Black Metal has more to do with punk and other genres than it does metal. Most metalheads I've ever known barely recognized black metal as metal and even I barely recognize it as such. It definitely started off played very punk and even the whole tremolo and blastbeat format feels very punk in concept.
Black metal shares a lot in common with hardcore punk genres such as Screamo/SKRAMZ, and a lot of black metal has something indie or Shoegaze behind it even if they aren't Post-Black Metal bands. Also, black metal appeals to people who aren't focused on headbanging and moshing and other common metal tropes, in fact it hardly appeals to Punks on the heavy side and more so punks on the Post-punk side.
Black metal is the kind of music you listen to as you sit at a window with a cigarette and stare at the trees. Black metal is more philosophical and political than regular metal. It has more of a punk attitude in it's messaging. Black metal basically fits into the mind of every kind of punk you can think of rather than metalheads. I think metalheads typically like the more traditional metal type of black metal
In some ways yes and some ways no, black metal is based way more on atmosphere, it has a wide range of influences including Kraut rock, and even at its origin had distinct differences in styles. Folk also plays a big part in black metal, even more so than punk I would say, look at Enslaved, the Storm album, and a lot of those Vintersorg/Otyg albums, even early In the Woods and Ulver.
@@patrickbertlein4626 I guess another thing to go with all this is that Black Metal is already similar to punk in that it's not a specific way of playing music, rather it's an idea and a vibe and an aesthetic. That's why both punk and black metal can kinda sound like anything, really. Death metal on the other hand is pretty cut and dry. It's hard to mistake a band as death metal. But you can easily identify a non black metal artist as black metal regardless
@@patrickbertlein4626 Exactly. Punk influences on BM music is obvious. But, second wave of black metal was heavily influenced by traditional european folk music. That's why folk black metal is a thing and acoustic black metal sounds like European folk music (especially slavic folk music) and not surf rock like many idiots thinks. Varg and lots of others of Norwegian musician are really into traditional Norwegian folk music, just thinks about Windir and Storm with Fenriz. Or just look the whole Ukrainian pagan black metal scene with Kroda, Nokturnal Mortum, Paganland, ect. The influences of traditional folk music is obvious.
I just wanna quote Cronos - "we wanted to play punk with long hair".
Ha ha, sounds good. :)
When someone says punk and black metal my immediate thought is Owls Woods Graves. Their first EP and album are my favorites. I never knew I would have so much fun listening to a combination of these two genres.
Enjoying these black metal videos. Keep it going
Kaaos was one of Punk bands which influenced Sepultura😁
Early Sepultura definitely sounds a lot like Kaaos and Crude SS!
I remember telling a punk friend of mine that Fenriz had a turbonegro patch on his best to get him in to black metal
Darkthrone make this link explicit. Nice video, Wyatt.
Speaking of Hellhammer, I was recently exposed to a band called Witchtrial, that would be a perfect shoe-in for this topic.
I have a serious affinity for anything that sounds like its own juiced-up version of hardcore-punk. My two favorite bands of all-time are Superjoint Ritual and Ringworm. Two bands that as far as I'm concerned, are ascended versions of hardcore, in their own way. Hell, if you listen to a lot of newer hardcore bands now, they're pretty much a stone's throw away from being metal bands.
And I've definitely heard A LOT of punk-ish riffage in various black metal projects. Behexen, right off the top of my head. Goatwhore may be kind of a stretch as far as "black metal" is concerned but I hear a bit of that in their later works. WITCHAVEN as well.
I mean, you can make the argument that wherever you hear a lot of serious power-chord riffage and skank/d-beats together, you're listening to a very evolved state of punk. Anything that generates that kind of moshworthy atmosphere owes punk for its existence, a LOT. Everything kinda' comes full-circle, I guess! \m/
Heck yes. And thanks for the recommends
Ringworm, Earth Crisis, Hatebreed, Merauder, Vision Of Disorder and all these "modern hardcore" bands are in reality pure metal. Their whole music is founded on very basic metal riffs repeated over and over and over again. This crap essentially has nothing to do with the original 1980's hardcore of Minor Threat, S.S.D., The F.U.'s, Cause For Alarm, Stark Raving Mad, Negative Approach, Justice League, Uniform Choice, Youth Of Today, Up Front.
@@piotrb8434 I probably should have clarified and said "hardcore bands I've gotten into recently" like Protocol, Tower 7, Warthog. There's a UA-cam channel called No Deal, who's provided like 70% of the hardcore stuff I've gotten into as of late. Some of the bands on there slip into crossover-thrash and sludge, somewhat regularly, over the course of a release.
The infamous Gehenna, probably the most black metal sounding hardcore band around, also vvegas.
@@piotrb8434
The problem with saying that is heavy hardcore gradually evolved out of that first wave hardcore, even if it relied on borrowing from the slow parts from crossover thrash quite a bit. The whole metallic hardcore thing was around well before the 80s were over; bands like Agnostic Front, Warzone and Sick of it All and a bunch of those heavier NYHC bands date to the mid 80s or earlier.
It comes off like you're complaining about slow, heavy hardcore even though it's been part of hardcore almost since the beginning. I prefer the faster stuff over a lot of the slower, more meathead stuff but it's not as though that meathead strain hasn't been part of hardcore for longer than hardcore has existed as a distinct genre.
Some of those metallic elements were just borrowed back anyways, especially anything involving a skank beat.
Underrated channel.
MC5 was a huge influence on Motorhead as well. Bathory's first album was hugely influenced by GBH "City Baby Attacked by Rats" album. Punk was most definitely an influence on early Death SS and on Sagatrakavashen (who called their music "Black Hardcore") as well. Punk was a huge influence on Venom as well, not jus through Motorhead. No Punk=No BM, as simple as that. Punkless "bm" sounds pretty terrible, to me anyway.
for any of you black metal fans, one of the most under appreciated (and in my opinion S tier) bands is hecate enthroned. check 'em out!
start with the song "the spell of the winter forest" and if you don't like that, you might not like blackmetal :)
@@mflambert Damn, "the spell of the winter forest" is an absolute masterpiece. Thanks for the recommendation, I'm going to check out the rest of their discography now.
@TheBlackVomit I'm not 100% sure it was them but either way its majestic. The lead singer didn't get along with the rest of the band btw and tried to kill them quite often. According to the tales I've read.
Their old bassist Mark Watson Jones is now fronting a d beat band called Emissaries of Syn.
punk bands from japan to check out in this context are LSD, Zuou and The Clay
Punk is the root and inspiration for all extreme rock and metal music!
I have always been torn between punk and metal, motorhead great example,
Whiskey ritual is super fun to, and discharge rules great job whyatt
And death crush is great
Lol i was listening to Abigail’s Satanik metal fucking hell, D Beat goin crazy and see your vid on the bottom about punk influences XD talk about perfect timing
I saw AMEBIX live in '85 (or '86?!), they were dressed in black, the music was dark,mysterious and metallic,your theory isn't too stupid
Hellhammer influences were mainly the NWOBHM bands like Angel Witch (demo and especially the song Extermination Day), Crucifixion (cool song name?), Raven, More, Witchfynde, and of course Venom & early Iron Maiden. And some bands from Belgium, Netherlands like Picture, Killer etc. They even take their artist names from the NWOBHM bands, like "Day" and "Stratton", "According to the book Only Death Is Real his stage name Bruce Day was inspired by Paul Mario Day and Brian Day of the NWOBHM band More.", Stratton comes from the Iron Maiden guitarist. The Only Death is Real book is excellent reading, recommended for fans of Heavy Metal! Of course there was influence from hardcore punk, like Discharge, and someone said Crude S.S, but their EP was released in 1985 (recorded in 84), when Hellhammer was already done. Good EP by the way. The best and honest Hellhammer clone bands will ever be Warhammer from Germany and Apocalyptic Raids from Brazil. Carpathian Forest did very Hellhammerish riffs on their demo and MCD. Angel Witch Extermination Day: ua-cam.com/video/K0jCHlF8hTM/v-deo.html
Tom G Warrior block is also interesting, notice the Raven and Hellhammer logos on their jackets, Witchfynde, Iron Maiden, Angel Witch patches on vests: fischerisdead.blogspot.com/2020/10/then-and-now-hellhammers-haunts.html Talking about under rated bands, if one is, it is RAVEN. That band invented practically Thrash/Speed Metal and influenced bands like Hellhammer, Venom, and Metallica. Not a bad achievement.
Crude SS actually had a demo out by 1982. It’s possible that Hellhammer got their hands on it somehow but it’s very debatable.
@@metalheadgamer80 Nothing about Crude SS on the book "Only Death Is Real". But of course everything is possible.
In all the press for triumph of death tom g warrior has been on about his love for venom and discharge.
I always think crust punk and black metal are similar to some degree 😂
Guttural breath lp by deviated instinct is also worth mentioning. As well as axegrinders rise of the serpent men, and winter's one full length lp.
Grew up listening to Punk and 60/70 Rock.
Naturally i liked stuff like Metallica/Slayer as a teen but things took a turn when i discovered Celtic Frost. They actually got me into Crust which at the time i had no clue existed.
National TV needs you.
Well said good breakdown. In high school I grew up listening to rock n roll, glam, punk, and post punk. I have never really been into metal. Recently I have been finding myself listening to more and more black metal and I can hear a lot of D-beat in it. That mayhem ep is amazing to me bc it sounds so punk.
I think BM might be the only genre of metal I actually enjoy. I love the cold miserable sound of BM. The fast chords they use is very punk. Also I love all that weird grunting and groaning for vocals. Also love how BM promotes paganism and nature that’s pretty cool
Punk contributed a little to early black metal, it was not a cornerstone of the genre after the "Norwegian" era. I was in an early '80's punk band, a thrash metal band after that and years later I would start an underground black/death metal label that released a handful of projects. Punk had far less to do with bm as whole, then people want to give credit. Punk was a greater influence on thrash era meta...
All the heavy and fast stuff roots in the 70s, greatest decade for music ever!!!
I believe punk has a bit of influence in almost everything that came after it
Venom is def influenced by Sex Pistols. In some interview, Cronos said that he lied that Johnny Rotten was his father, altough he (Johnny) was older 6 years. He even copied his accent
Iron Maiden sounds like black metal if you maxout the treble lol...Loved your analysis!
I can't wait until a brutal death metal creator says that their main influence comes from the song ink spots - i don't want to set the world on fire.
I love black metal! I listen to down with the sickness every day!
Nice video, im from Finland and i can help out with that Kaaos record "Ristiinnaulittu" means "Crucified" in English :)
The first band I think of is definitely celtic frost. And I honestly like this early punk influenced black metal.
First Celtic Frost's EP Morbid Tales is essentially crust punk album if we go by the sound of it.
Good video- it's interesting seeing people say and basically argue with Fenriz of all people on the topic that Hellhammer, Celtic Frost, etc. isn't black metal when Darkthrone has built the VAST majority of their discography based on Celtic Frost riffs and vocals since Panzerfaust. And, like, listen to Amebix's Axeman and tell me you don't hear the parallels in both style and atmosphere.
Also, CF covering Mexican Radio has to be a punk mindset of making fans mad by doing something no one expected, a song no one would associate with them, to open an album that greatly departs their earlier work that they knew people would be turned off by.
The sad part is that Fenriz is partially responsible with that bullshit "true black" that he came up with...he said many times that he regrets it somehow
Basically to summarize it
Take Motörheads speed and more rhythmic playing
Then take Sabbaths level of heaviness and doom/distortion
And combine it with a bunch of Punk and you got 1st Wave Black Metal or basically just early Extreme Metal (Thrash)
The gothic rock band Feilds of the Nephilim had a clear influnce on the 2nd and third wave Black Metal bands
Does anyone realize that he’s taking black metal with a Madonna record behind his left shoulder……
Classic!!!!!
Interesting to hear a perspective from a person who didnt live through the 80-00's procession of metal. Black metal is the most punk of the metal family tree.
Really? What about thrash? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@Hell-Awaits You think thrash is more punk? Naw, disagree totally. The essense, the spirit of punk lies within black metal!
Well, punk was always there in black metal, obviously. And no need to take so long journeys to prove the point, I mean just play any riff of Hellhammer a bit slower and ask a noobie who's riff is that and he'll guess any hard rock or 70s punk band, but not a metal name. Also untill "Possessed" Venom barely had metal riffs, these were punk riffs just played so harshly and dirty they became heavy. Early Sodom drew obvious influences from the West-German HC scene of the time. It was just the fact that subcultures didn't cross until the 90s that stopped them from openly playing together and mix the genres.