Combining Tai Chi and Wrestling: Ancient Wisdom Upgrades the Double Leg Defense

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  • Опубліковано 29 гру 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 28

  • @lsporter88
    @lsporter88 2 місяці тому +4

    That was an excellent demonstration. You're definitely moving in the right direction in my very humble opinion. This is exciting methinks. Great video.

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому

      Thank you! And it’s a really fun direction to research and train so that’s a plus too. I appreciate your kind comment! 😃🙏

  • @kingofaikido
    @kingofaikido 2 місяці тому +4

    Nice Chester..! Loved the cross-training application..!!

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому +1

      It’s fun to grow with your students and grow together with your training partner! My teacher told me, “the day that you think you know everything is the day that your martial arts starts dying.” And so this is my inverse corollary addendum. As long as you explore what you don’t know you will continue to find ways to grow! 😃🙏

    • @kingofaikido
      @kingofaikido 2 місяці тому +1

      @@phoenixmountaintaichi Chester, I know this thread might be too limited a forum to discuss this but, although I'm in alignment with your values (joyous, playful, learning environment), I still have half a foot in the 'traditional' mindset. Some teachers, including me at times, think that the higher levels of understanding may be potentially too dangerous to share. What would be your take on this question..? I also know 'life is short' and that martial arts teachers are not known to earn the highest incomes...the occupation tends towards doing it out of love. Indeed, among aikido teachers, there are many who would go out of pocket just to keep training. Like you, I seem to be a natural educator and it frustrates me when I discover something of quality but feel 'obliged' to keep my mouth shut. Half of me wants to teach but the other half knows human nature is not always sincere. There are students who appear to be loyal but who are actually hungry for power, for example, whereas the philosophies we want to embody are centered around harmonies at every level, right? Is it enough to exercise restraint in oneself and simply teach what we find to be good and not mention the possibilities of injury and death, the tension between the martial arts for life and social harmony vs. the martial arts for selfish ends..? In the West, we seem surrounded by selfish people and the only time this 'self' changes or begins to question itself is when words like 'healing' are used... I've often thought it might be better to offer a healing art rather than a martial art but then one might have far fewer students, such that one might not be able to support oneself on that. I'd appreciate any thoughts or tips you had on this matter.

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому

      ⁠@@kingofaikidoLots of great topics. Let’s discuss them one by one!
      About are some things too dangerous to teach? Yes. In some martial arts there are definitely techniques with high risks of irreversibly injuring people, even training partners. Ankle locks, finger breaks, fragile targets. I would teach them specifically to let people know to not do them. I don’t really think we can keep people from finding out. They’re gonna learn it on the internet or someone else will tell them. So if they have the intelligence and empathy to understand the gravity I think you might as well be the one to explain it right? And if they don’t, hopefully you can be the one to guide them to grow.
      As a child I learned praying mantis style Kungfu and there is a concept called the Eight Hits and Eight Don’t Hits. The former are incapacitating targets and the latter are irreversibly crippling or worse targets. In retrospect I see the wisdom of teaching people what to avoid but also offering what to do instead.
      One special quality about Tai Chi is that the higher skills such as Qi, Neijin and Yi require a genuine level of empathy and compassion. So the “bad guys” will not be able to make these skills work. In that way there’s a natural morality and wisdom filter. And when you look, you will see that charlatans and people with bad intentions do not demonstrate the higher skills of Tai Chi, just Fascia and Song, the first two levels of our five levels of internal skills.
      About teaching things that traditions don’t want you to teach: I struggled with this one as many of my teachers are traditionalists that rather knowledge not be passed on than to be passed on to unworthy people. While honoring these traditions I watched, as you have, the knowledge and skill decline, tai chi becoming more of a joke, charlatans filling the void peddling low or fake skill to real lovers of the arts desperate for any source of knowledge. I decided eventually that the art itself deserves better even if it means upsetting some of my teachers. I began to teach openly, even online obviously, and some of my teachers are deeply upset. My favorite and closest teachers have supported me, but often with the caveat to not mention their names as they don’t want to get dragged into any martial political drama lol.
      About teaching students who may have selfish desires: well we all have selfish desires to some extent. I hope in the course of learning, we grow together and I hope as they learn the deeper aspects of the art including compassion and empathy that their perspective and heart grows along with their skill. Their skill won’t grow without their inner self growing first and I do think the desire for skill may inadvertently but necessarily improve their heart, if the right teachings and guidance are provided. When I was a child I enjoyed fighting and all that and as it turns out the more my skill grew the less I cared about that kind of thing. The more calm I became. Isn’t that funny?
      About people who are selfish and insincere who won’t change: if there are such persons, I think the best thing to do is to make everyone else just as skilled and knowledgeable, if not more so. As we discussed earlier, in the absence of helpful and abundant knowledge, in that scarcity, charlatans who have learned a few tricks hold themselves up as the wizard of Oz and command the attention of the students starved for teachings. I’m not saying I’m Gandalf but I know there is more to the internal arts than what the con man have shared. And I will share all of that because when you democratize that, we even the playing field. It’s like the value and power of free speech, but in regards to knowledge that everyone can benefit from so that bad people don’t have an informational advantage.
      About martial art teachers not making money: I think many teachers don’t make money and I think they can. Rather than all of us fighting for food in a little pond we should grow the pond. Right now there are a lot of BJJ schools charging high tuition and doing successfully because there is a lot of interest in BJJ. I think if more people understood how wonderful other traditional martial arts can be, if there were as many people wanting to learn Tai Chi or Aikido as there is wanting to learn BJJ, we can easily have 10x or 50x more teachers and all of us making a nice living. And how do we do that? Not by keeping secrets while watching con man lure all the nice students away. We do it by showing how wonderful the art is, how viable it can be to learn it, by elevating the skill, the reputation, and the system of teaching it.
      About healing arts: yes tai chi kind of has a reputation of being healing so that does help. In Phoenix Mountain Shendao, the root of our practice, we say there are three branches of developing this harmony of body, spirit, and consciousness. When we use it to influence the body, energy, and consciousness of an opponent, that is our martial art. When we use it to positively influence the body, energy, and consciousness of someone else, that is our healing art. When we use it to positively influence the body, energy, and consciousness of ourself, that is our spiritual art. It’s the same principles and techniques in each of the triangle vertices, just with different targets. All my students are taught this way and if you see the testimonials from people who visit our school they usually note that our students are very pleasant to be around while being able to demonstrate the skills I show here. So I think you’re totally right about healing and teaching and martial arts and I am glad my students can modify that. Please forgive my proud bragging grandpa moment ha ha.
      Thanks for opening up this nice discussion. I’ll probably transcribe this onto our website’s internal forum. If you sign up for any of our online courses you’ll get access to it! Don’t be a stranger. And thanks again! 😃🙏🙌

  • @ragemydream
    @ragemydream 2 місяці тому +2

    Love this series. It's like the Tai Chi version of Huo Yuanjia :D

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому +1

      Haha hopefully without the poisoned tea! Or hopefully Moe’s tea shop will supply me with all the healthy antidotes 😆🙏

    • @ragemydream
      @ragemydream 2 місяці тому

      @@phoenixmountaintaichi 😅😅

  • @clementray1410
    @clementray1410 2 місяці тому +3

    Good stuff

  • @robertjordon1984
    @robertjordon1984 2 місяці тому +1

    good demo Master Chester. It was interesting when you applied the hard, sinking force and he was able able to somehow 'power out' of it due to his prior training. Is there a way to not allow him to power out or no way around it if the opponent is trained like the wrestler appears to be?

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому +2

      If you apply hard force then he will be familiar with how to respond to it and it will be very challenging to stop a skilled wrestler with that method. There is a saying called “don’t release don’t resist” (不丟不頂), meaning you don’t run from the contact but you also don’t fight their force. So if you want to apply sinking you should lead their force while applying sinking.
      When it comes to who is going to be more effective applying their skill, it comes down to our relative levels of Zhongding (中定), Centered Equillibrium.
      What that means is that the person who best maintains their mental centering will have the advantage. Will I be more able to remain calm and Song while applying the fascia control and or float or sink, or will he be more able to remain calm and balanced as he experiences my disruption while he adjusts his technique to catch me? So it will come down to who is the more skilled and more mentally calm and focused fighter. Does that make sense? This is something that is crucial in the 4th and 5th stage of internal skills mastery, Neijin and Yi Mastery. Thanks for your keen observations and great questions! 😃🙌

    • @robertjordon1984
      @robertjordon1984 2 місяці тому

      @@phoenixmountaintaichi Thanks Master. I agree with you in that whoever is more mentally centered will ultimately have the upperhand. But in our internal martial do you think the 're-wiring' of the body by developing the dantien and doing the associated tendon-neikung work is a pre-requisite for this mental-centeredness. The tendon neikung work I have seen espoused by the likes of Mantak Chia sppears to be very relevant in mastering because ultimately the stability in the body is ultimately what provides mental centeredness? I mean if we developed say, a taichi or bagua body then ended up in an accident where we broke a limb would we still be able to retain the mental-centeredness now that the body is no longer centered? Just some processes your reply got me rummaging over, got me rather perplexed.

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому +1

      @@robertjordon1984Improving your body and improving your tendon fascia network are indeed helpful because it makes you more comfortable and more balanced. In our first two stages of training, Fascia and Song Mastery, you develop a balanced fascia and the skill of releasing tension and attachment, starting from physical and on to emotional and mental. I think it is more challenging to reach and mental and spiritual centeredness if you are physically tense and uncomfortable so we might as well do it the easy way!
      However once you know your Zhongding you do not have to remain physically perfect or comfortable. Sometimes my cat sleeps on my face and I wake up with a sore neck or my legs are sore from having hiked a long hike or I got kicked by someone powerful. Or it’s just a really hot or cold day! I can be physically uncomfortable while being mentally centered. Because beyond being uncomfortable we can find a sense of being unbothered. Buddha reached enlightenment after maintaining a meditative mind even while all his enemies bother, harass, try to scare or distract him. That is the type of centeredness that matters and that we can all reach for. Thanks for your comment and discussion, this is a very interesting topic! 😃🙏

    • @robertjordon1984
      @robertjordon1984 2 місяці тому

      @@phoenixmountaintaichi Thanks Master. I must the idea of zhong ding really is a fascinating area along with meditation and the ideas you mentioned concerning the Buddah's own practice.
      Unfortunately I have no real world experience of meditation except when doing zhang zhuang postures in the past where you need to go inside your body and constantly song while paying attention to keeping the structure aligned and let the 'strings' do their thing - unless this could be considered a form of meditation elbeit superfical and nothing like the deep, complex process that the Buddah underwent.
      Would really love to hear more about this idea of zong ding and meditation to facilitate this process. Fascinating Stuff!

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому

      @@robertjordon1984your experience is a valid form of meditation as is stationary meditation sitting meditation. Breath counting and awareness is the classic Buddhist meditation. My favorite meditation is simply doing the Tai Chi form while being completely aware of how the Neijin flows around and through my body, to move my body through all the movements of the form. As you let go of thoughts and worries to experience the float and sink of your body completely, and as you totally allow the body to move with the Yi and Neijin, you feel as if you are totally aware of the inside of your body while also feeling as if you are not your body. This is a powerful meditation that anyone that knows a few Tai Chi movement can begin to experience. Try my 3 Moves of the Tao for this! 😃🙌

  • @volatileepiphanies5547
    @volatileepiphanies5547 2 місяці тому

    I think its valuable to keep an open mind and try new things. There is merit to experimenting within a style to try to discover new ways to do something.
    That said, the double leg takedown is one of the highest percentage techniques in existence. People have spent millions of man hours pressure testing it against wrestlers that know how to defend it. I have my doubts one or two people working in isolation will find a high percentage defense to the double leg. Also what looks good with low energy might not be work that great against someone doing a full speed takedown.
    At the end of the day, experimentation is great, but at a certain point we need to respect the abilty and knowledge people have in their domain. If you want to learn how to stop a double leg, learn to wrestle. At a certain point we need to expect that other people may know what they are doing, and we can benefit to learn form them. Wrestlers REALLY know what they are doing, so they best way to learn how to defend wrestling is to learn wrestling.
    If you go into a boxing gym and ask how to defend a takedown, a god trainer will tell you to go learn to wrestle. They won't show you some theoretical move and present it as a way to stop a takedown. The same way you don't go to a wrestling gym to learn to throw a right cross. At a certain point we all need to admit sometimes someone might actually know what they are doing.

  • @igorkiselev1936
    @igorkiselev1936 2 місяці тому +2

    Пэн и люй это хорошо , но ...если борец высокого уровня , это может не сработать , да укоренение и структура необходимые условия , но самое главное это НЕЙ ЛИ .

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому +2

      Very good points! We must train to be as skillful and strong as possible, whether that’s external or internal strength. Be higher level than your opponent and be stronger than them. Thank you for your comment! 😃🙏

    • @dontbehavewithstevemarshal7352
      @dontbehavewithstevemarshal7352 2 місяці тому +2

      I’ve sparred with many wrestlers.
      The fact that you are even addressing this with tai chi is amazing.
      We must face what is really going to happen in a fight
      Again thank you so much for these videos

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому +4

      @@dontbehavewithstevemarshal7352Good point! I’ve sparred with many grapplers too and after getting taken down 100 times I also realized we must understand how to deal with this!
      And the interesting history and reality that some people know is that Yang Luchan, the founder of Yang Style Tai Chi, made his fame by defeating numerous martial artists in Beijing, in a time where many many of them were skilled wrestlers. So inherent to Tai Chi is an understanding of working with and against wrestling techniques. Although many have forgotten or neglected that aspect of the art.
      I’m grateful for having good wrestlers and grapplers to work out with to help me understand the principles proven in modern combat and to rediscover the wisdom in the ancient teachings that are relevant still today. Thank you for your comment! 😃🙌

  • @chrisbera7952
    @chrisbera7952 2 місяці тому

    Hard to say if that would effective. He was doing the double leg with no force or follow through. I don’t think it would work with a fully committed take down

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому

      Thank you for thinking about it and your thoughtful comment! I respect your opinion and appreciate the comment. 😃🙏

    • @chrisbera7952
      @chrisbera7952 2 місяці тому

      @@phoenixmountaintaichi Thanks. Try it in a general sparring situation with the guy going full speed. that's the only way to know for sure if it will work.

  • @qp9259
    @qp9259 2 місяці тому +1

    I generally support cross polination in martial arts, but this shit aint gonna work. The functional premise of a sprawl is turning the body vertically so that your center of gravity (the hips) is placed too far away for them to manipulate it.
    What you're showing is conceptually similar to an aditional form of movement present in many sprawls, and thats circling away from the incoming force.
    But what you show here often is essentially just... shoving them off of your still very grab-able legs. It's headed in the right direction in the sense that often you dont meet the force as much as attempt to redirect it, but I think you're going to have to concede the necessity of changing your level to better protect your pegs at the very least.
    I think you may also be underestimatibg the level of pgysicality and explosiveness involved in a good wrestling shot as well.
    Ultimately, I have a hard time fully describing it. But I see good ideas at work here, I just think you might find better success adding these ideas into the mix of the standard wrestling defense formula.
    If youre not involved in BJJ already I wpuld do that as well. Theres already some push hands people in the sport. Like Andrew Warzinscki. Might be able to pull some interesting stuff from watching them as well.

    • @phoenixmountaintaichi
      @phoenixmountaintaichi  2 місяці тому

      Thank you for your thoughtful and respectful comment! I quite agree with a lot of what you say. Putting your center of gravity away from them is very advantageous, as is rotating away from them. Leaving your legs within grabbing range is a liability. As even a grabbed ankle can turn into an inversion and a leg lock attack. These are complexities of combat that all have to be prepared for and dealt with!
      You are right about physicality and explosiveness. And an explosive blast double is a different beast and that would be dealt in its own way. I do not underestimate the physicality and explosiveness in a good wrestling shot, and practice with skilled grapplers whenever possible.
      I do incorporate a lot of Tai Chi into standard wrestling techniques and standard BJJ techniques. It’s very related to the roots of Tai Chi itself. I’ll be presenting more of it in the future as I accrue useful footage of it in resisted training and in tournaments! I’ll watch more of Andrew, thank you for the tip! And if you give my techniques a try I would love that as well! The key is that you have to apply the force tangential to the surface, like a rubbing, and not like a push or levering into their center of gravity. As you try it let me know what questions or comments comes up. Thanks again for your long and thoughtful comment. I appreciate it! 😃🙏