After hearing this, I wouldn't be surprised if the cloud-ark was a step to collect all the consciousness of the people in one place so the could be combined.
Wait, there's been a mission to do with the Veil EACH WEEK? I thought that was a one-off at the start of the season. I feel like that could have been better advertised.
@@Cony394 It's hard to categorize this as a "secret." It's a multi-stage weekly quest where the first part is made very obvious and then each subsequent week just isn't put on your quest log for uncertain reasons. This feels like something that everyone was supposed to know about but that wasn't clearly indicated, rather than something that was intentionally hidden for people to discover.
@@Cony394This shouldn’t be/isn’t meant to be a secret though. The entire point of the mission was to find out what the veil was. It’s literally just poor communication from Bungie.
@@Cony394he fact you skewed nearly 4 million players words just shows your intelligence... "We want more story in game" referring to the fact we have to READ everything. Oddly enough nobody ever said these give story at all. Had we known that, trust me, everyone would be doing it. We asked for more story in game, not a mini quest that doesn't show up anywhere on the map except neomuna. No quest, not a single marker. Only when you specifically open neomuna. And even then it's thrown out of focus by the massive vex incursion symbol. A more accurate way to have done this, would have been to fucking include all of this shit in the mission itself while exploring the place. But no, it's one time every week, in an obscured mission on a planet everyone's burnt out on.
To make people better understand. Think of the veil as something similar to the Artifact from Dead Space. Literally bring peace and "unity" across the galaxy.... in the most horrific way possible.
The cloud striders, their memories are all saved right in those lil pillars we see, what if thats just storage till enough have been "saved" to make a new witness. This would explain their short lifespan, shorter lives, saved memories, faster turn around in getting a larger pool to merge. What if the striders were meant to be the best humanity had to offer, those willing to die to protect life and this allows the forming of a new witness but the goal is to be a protector and hero.
We're proof though, that using the darkness doesn't make you evil, darkness isn't inherently evil, if it's the thing that governs the metaphysical, then it is emotions like anger and hatred, but it's also happiness and love. And I personally think it's VERY clear that the traveller and the light aren't inherently good either, as Osiris says in his analysis of our different powers, solar, the power of the sun, this absolute destructive force of hellfire, is also what we use to heal, and cure. The witness isn't some god, it's a race of alien beings using the darkness, yes it's got more mastery over the darkness than anything else, but it's using it as we use the light and dark.
Cloud Striders have "nanite colonies" so I would almost assume these were reversed engineered from radiolaria or it was directly used in their make up and the veil provided the "Clarity." Cloudstriders are basically bootleg Exos, hence the 10 year lifespan because their organic bodies can't keep up with the damage and don't have the durability of the Exo frames. Maya essentially tried to be Clovis and couldn't recreate what he perfected.
@@supercato9613 Each exo has a special ability to use, what those abilities are and what they can be is anyone's guess but there are so little exos from the golden age that are still alive which is why we don't see any besides guardians and vendors
Scientist and researchers being amoral in search of results. Sounds very human and from history as well, at got some on our own history who committed heinous acts upon their fellow human in search of results. Writing from humans will reference humanity. 🤷
What would be even scarier if Maya succeeded in creating another Witness. Also there was a lore card that mentioned that not all of the Witness' species may have agreed with, or were a willing part of, the rests plans of merging together.
Hear me out: the veil and the cloud ark are the end goal of what Clovis bray was trying to achieve. The reason that Maya sundaresh wasn't scared or shocked when that team went brain dead was because she was used to seeing it. The cloud ark, the ark striders, and the veil are the end that Clovis could never find. Think of Maya working backwards from where Clovis tried to get to, but she retrofitted things to achieve that. Both of them were spoken to by the whisper that told them what to do.
@@TheDarkMaster312 I wasn't suggesting that. The vex were trying to recreate the veil and Clovis got involved in that which eventually lead to the exo program which was a way of preserving your consciousness forever much in the same way the cloud ark works by way of the veil. (I understand there's probably more involved to this. It's a rough theory.) The vex, failing to recreate the veil helped Clovis create a micro cloud ark to upload a consciousness into. (the cloud ark may be based on vex tech as well, I've also considered that because of the way the vex exist as a body when really they are what's in the radiolarian fluid. I'm just throwing some fun speculation out there since we have to have a vex season coming soon.)
Nope, both Sundaresh and Bray were both led astray by whispers of Darkness that corrupt the mind of mortals. This should be evident as the people who became the Witness did the same and decided to take the Traveler power to remake the universe. You fall to the Darkness influence, you get a God complex. Look at the similarities, only difference is we have no idea how many epochs the people who became the Witness progressed before they encountered the Veil. If you think back to light and dark, they are called rules of the universe. They are usually not to far from one another. Witness people according to Ahsa lived in a City of Light, didn't say how big but they were blessed without reserve for who knows how long. No they didn't have Guardians (this is new), they were just like blessed humanity, they lived insanely long and knowledge moved forward at an amazing pace. One key thing Ahsa says, it never spoke to them. Light and Darkness speaks to no one, what you hear in the Darkness is your own desires and fears. The being who those powers belong to doesn't have those emotions because they aren't necessary as it has no life span nor fear of death. The Witness has found a way to use the Darkness to whisper what those seeking answers what they wish to hear. Clovis Bray says the Darkness told him to build the vex portal, like what? So he could create something to make himself be the hero, like I said darkness brings to the surface desires and you choose the path to accomplish it. The Witness is a victim of their own desires. I truly hope we get to see these malevolent asshats get their just desserts. For their goal, all other life are insignificant. I want to Thunder crash its face, because it's the equivalent of an immoral scientist. Just like Maya Sundaresh results, no matter the cost of lives.
I wonder if Maya was Savathun in disguise? Maybe creating her own "witness" and possibly trying to copy the power the witness possesses? They found the veil pretty quickly considering colony ships seemed to not go as far as Neptune. If Savathun was good enough to hide the Veil from an entity as powerful as the Witness, how could they have found it so easily? Maybe Savathun disguised herself as Maya when she hid the Veil in order to study it for herself. Grasping at straws here, but now that Savathun has the light, the only thing left would be to connect to the veil to obtain that power the society that the Witness was born from wanted. Maybe Savathuns plan was went as far as to study the veil to know everything about it before sacrificing herself to obtain the light, which was why it was so important for us to get Savathun to get her memories back... Plus she had the Traveler trapped in her throne world, just like the Witness had the Traveler trapped in the beginning of Lightfall? I see lots of connections.
Let’s not forget that the witness’s people were once blessed with the light. Most likely something like guardians. Imagine if all of us saw the same desires as the witness. Nothing could stop us from committing mass extinction to our self’s if we saw that the traveler never spoke to us and saw the light as a weekness and the veil the source of exsisting making us no different then the avatar of darkness
@@miniverse2002That's not it at all. The people who became the Witness, didn't experience anything like it brought upon everyone else. How did you people miss this fact?!? They were the first to be blessed by the Traveler and they got to the point, they lived too long and had no purpose. They went out to the stars and eventually found the device they called the Veil. It's obvious what happened to Sundaresh team, more than likely happened to some of them. I'm willing to bet before this they never experienced death. Ahsa said it was a City of Light. They chose to interfere with that device, hit corrupted by is power and then led by their own desires brought it back with the intention of connecting it to the Traveler (according to them was their Gardener). Apparently whatever they learned from the Darkness, yet we're afraid of it and saw the life giving universe shaping powers of the Traveler was the only way to change/prevent it. So they wanted to take power that didn't belong to them and remake the universe how they saw fit. Everyone else in Destiny were blessed, but got lost in their own entitlement and fought amongst each other. The Cabal, Eliskni, Humanity as well, everyone else got murdered into extinction by the same ones who didn't want to die. Kind of full of shit these first beings are. Then had the never to say that the Traveler is the one feeling pain and bringing life only brings more pain as death comes. Mind you the Witness is the one handing out death certificates. These cowards made themselves one being, killed billions all in the chase to gain power that didn't belong to it, to play God. There's no Good ending for Destiny, we're all gonna die. The order is what I'm interested in, I'm sure that the Witness connecting to the Traveler using the Veil set of events that will destroy all life including the Witness. Notice that even that it using darkness, it cannot leave the simulation, nor do I think it knows that the power does not give from within this universe, but it's from outside of it.
So the final shape is a final form of all life in a universe to become a god we don’t want to end up just like the witness like forgetting who we were and attacking worlds and species with no reason we don’t want to become a monster
And then do what? Create life in it's image? To what purpose? If all life is 'perfect' and the most 'perfect' expression is a single entity living that perfect life, without change ,without challenge for all of eternity, then that 'perfection' is best experienced alone, with none other to share it's glory. The simple reason being that "another" would not necessarily share the same perspective on that 'perfection' and dissention is chaos, and chaos is suffering, suffering is pain and pain marrs perfection.
@@DragonKnight90001 Honestly I think it's more that megalomaniacs are more likely to buy into the Witness' ideology. But Eramis has joined the Witness simply because she believes it is the only way to end the suffering of her people. I think the Witness doesn't see itself so much as a god and more of an answer to a problem.
@@reamoinmcdonachadh9519 exactly remember in the witnesses backs toward his people. Found the traveler and it gave them gifts knowledge technology to travel among the Stars to better themselves. And then eventually when you seen it all done it all solved every problem there's nothing for you to do. You start to lose meaning and purpose in your life and that's what happened to the witnesses. Race lost all meaning they lost all-purpose everything that they've done. they've already done it they probably even solved immortality. And then when they finally just turned to their God they're god. Remain silent The traveler didn't tell them what to do. What's next on the agenda we solve all of our problems what is there for us to do. The traveler is a terraformer more than anything he's not going to the traveler is not just going to tell you. Hey I want you to do XY and z and stop being stupid. No that's the thing about the traveler he gives you a choice. Freedom chaos to do whatever you please I mean look at the first generation of guardians. They practically did whatever they wanted killed a bunch of people and started making warlords. It was until years later that the killing and the violence needs to stop. And maybe there might be a better way of using your powers. But did The traveler tell them this no the traveler never told them. Anything in so many words it was just like a hint or a greater. understanding of maybe we should use these powers to fight against Darkness. But not Darkness itself but fight against the witness in so many ways. The traveler gives free will to all you can use your powers however you want. And the witness hated that life without no meaning no purpose life and death all that stuff. The witnesses people found that boring destructive chaotic and it needed to be controlled. Maybe their purpose was to give perfection to the entire universe everyone is perfect. Everyone is immortal no crime no envy hatred and bigotry all these Petty things are done away with and everyone is the same you know what your purpose is you know what the goal will be next time everyone knows everything you know your fate you know your destiny you know what you're supposed to do you know you're going to die and you make peace with that it's control on a global universal everything manufactured and controlled like an assembly line. They will be no surprises you'll know who you're going to get married to you know how many children you have and then you know how you'll die.
I wonder if it’s a coincidence that what’s happening with the Neomuni is the same as those who found the witness. They found it and learned from it, used it, then developed into a golden age. They talk about things like salvation. Could they be moving towards a similar fate as The Witness? Maybe eventually they come for the traveller and try to combine them themselves, sort of the opposite of the witness’s species. Also this is perfectly setting up another season with BrayTech and Clovis
These missions should've been compliments to the Season Pass, and advertised in such a way all players knew about it. It would've held back lots of the criticism Destiny has gotten lately.
This dialogue almost gives the idea that the vex are the original final shape or maybe just the prejenitor of witness was. The vex (Radiolaira) is a organism that is a hive mind of microorganisms driven by a single obsession ; curiosity.
The final shape is just a point where there is no more life in the universe. It's not some special thing. If it's final that means for the Gardener, the board is restarted and the Gardening starts anew.
I bet the Witness’s name has something to do with that quantum observer hypothesis. In quantum mechanics, things exist in flux until they’re observed (or witnessed) by a conscious viewer. What would the Witness want to do that to I wonder? Maybe something like the Awoken Distributary, but with the whole universe?
It may be that the Veil is the real mastermind despite doing nothing and that any species that comes across it is influenced in a subtle way to create a Witness.
Von Neumann-wigner interpretation is not just about consciousness, with a thought experiment "Wigner's friend"(many videos on youtube) similar to "Schrodinger's cat" it proves and postulates that "Mind" is the true measurement apparatus and is non-physical i.e you can't measure it...
Those Ishtar fellas, ex Twitch employees I bet, couldn't get their hands on Savathun's bath water, so they had no other choice but to improvise. Baby Witness was almost born.
In case you wanted an easier way to to refer to what the witness is you can use the term gestalt entity gestalt entity is a being that is made up of more than one consciousness, blended together to become much greater than the sum of its parts.
I think Dr. Shonda rouse was good still and the reason why is because she accomplished her go and making another witness. All others are connected through a river, a river of souls. They may still possess individuality, but they are the witness too which is why we're able to use strand because she created this from darkness and the river are souls provided us with straind
Coming into contact with the Darkness brings out their desires that's why. The people who are the Witness underwent the same thing. Did you listen to each week of reveals from Ahsa? The second to last explained who the Witness once was and their desire to use the Traveler powers to shape the universe. Scientist were the ones who found and studied the Veil and then we got this madness.
I think the final shape is infinity. This is what happens when the veil connects to the traveler and makes the physical shape of infinity as well as combine their paracausal powers of light and dark to make time infinite. Constantly in both the last and the future. Time stoppage. No more chaos. No more death. No more anything.
Humans are machines, they'll collapse in the floor at that point you'll panic thinking they're having some sort of fainting spell. You watched too many futuristic movies, thinking people just stop moving and balance in a catatonic state. Naw, that isn't how reality works.
My personal theory about the Veil is as follows: As the Traveler used light to affect living creatures, giving them a golden age, The Veil created Radiolaria which eventually became the Vex. When the Witnesses race found the Veil, and gained access to the information/memories within, they learned of the Vex, and their shared mind. They came to the conclusion that a 'shared consciousness' was as close to perfection as the Veil could achieve. They planned to merge the Veils methods with the Travelers gifts to create perfection. When the Traveler fled their plans to merge it with the Veil, they incorporated the Veils design of a shared mind, and pushed it even further. They merged everyone into a 'near perfect being'. It also explains why the Vex followed the Veil to Neomuna. And many other things that will end up connected to the Veil.
And also, the only reason the Veil, and the darkness, has memories is because of the Veil's connection to the Vex, who's time travel and simulation allows them to witness and learn all that is recorded or remembered. They probably connect to the Veil through the eregore, so all their knowledge is shared with their 'God'. And it also explains their attempt to create the 'Black Heart', and why it was a failed attempt at re-creating the Veil, and why they worshipped it.
For context I was over exaggerating, any idea or theory always gets scrapped or merged into somebody’s post. Like at most I’ll get three comments then some jackass shows up, takes it and hundreds of people see it. I’ve said the Witness had overlapping voices, multiple heads, a flowing head that reminds of the ebb and flow of the water thanks to Nimbus’ story. The “We” is constantly emphasized, it moves as if it has to ask the multiple beings permission (Granted I said only 10 or 8 beings but new lore says otherwise) I’ve stated that the Witness may not be a singular entity but a sole product of manipulation by the Veil entity. They were trying to merge consciousness like Calus’ crown of sorrow and subsequently the Veil. I’ll say more later
I think a lot of people aren't even putting things together. After Ahsa's reveal, it's become clear that the people who are the Witness became corrupted after coming into contact with the 'Veil'. They detected a signal like the Traveler and went to it and then studied it, learned from it. Learned?!? How do you learn from something that doesn't speak? Their desires surfaced and I'm guessing they saw an end to their civilization and decided that they'll bring it back and connect it to the Traveler. For what purpose, they wanted to use it's power to shape the universe to their liking. Things aren't clear but it says the Traveler fled. Which to me doesn't make sense. These were the first creation or seems, the art had the Traveler covered in what looked like substrate, and as big as the Traveler is, that's freaking a lot of substrate. So I'll go with this was the place where it entered the universe and was deposited. Now let's get deep, how did a whole civilization flourish and no darkness arrive? Where we the Darkness?!? I'm here to say the Darkness was without consciousness. That Veil as they called it, is actually a conduit. The ending of Lightfall even showed it as such. It connected to the Traveler, this very same device was used to connect the Witness people to Darkness. So if it can do that, then it means the reason the Traveler is silent is because the consciousness is not there, so where is it? Not sure, but we've only ever seen the light from the Traveler. What if by connecting to the Traveler, the Witness set in motion the consciousness activating in the Darkness. This could be bad for everyone involved. Based on original lore, the Gardener and Winnower seemed like two beings but they are one but with two minds i guess you can say. Splitting their powers didn't split them, so for all this time the Witness has been using powers that don't belong to it. What if now that the consciousness has awakened in the Darkness with all that's happened wouldn't it be furious? I mean for eons someone else has been abusing your station while attempting to take your other power for itself. Cut to final shape, the Darkness now fueled by the consciousness that was within the Traveler decides to punish those who misused its power. The orb(Traveler) will be dormant now without a consciousness, but what if that Winnower isn't as easy going as the Gardener. Would be interesting if it starts doing things like depriving the Witness is Darkness or better yet setting up the who were harmed by the Witness BS to trample upon it. Ripping away the abilities derived from Darkness and left bare to pay for their sins against it. Think about it the universe is your garden and one of these dudes started using your tools on you whilst you are stuck with amnesia and one day it all comes back. I once blessed you and this is how you repay me. Time to revel in your despair, you're going to endure eons of torment. Lol
all of this crazy lore and seasonal missions and cutscenes should've been in the lightfall campaign but no what all companys think about is money and battle passes.
Good thing you don't run a company, you'd be in the red in less than 3 hours. All companies are here to make money, you think setting up a company, investing in ideas is free?
Didn't shunderesh put out a bunch of copies of herself into the vex network? Could they be combined into a witness like person? It would be interesting if that is who talked to and not the Witness.
It seems all those who encounter the veil have a fanatical desire to seek salvation. Maya has never been shown to have talked to the witness, so she couldn't have talked to it. What if the veil is the true enemy of the destiny universe. The veil uses some cosmic manipulation that forces its victim to pursue the final shape fanatically, to the point they'd give up their own being. I feel like this could be a twist bungie pulls in the game
This could be their version of the old rumored and scrapped "the traveler is actually evil and the black garden is inside of the travler" plot that supposedly existed in an erarly stage of the development. Would be very inconvienient if the veil turned out to be evil since the cloud ark and the neomuna people kinda is inside the veil. But it would offer a kind of symmetry 2 last cities 2 slumbering god machines. Would majorly suck if we had to kill all the people in the cloud ark to save the world.
How can the entire research team die? Did they say, alright, on the count of 3, let's all touch it together. Nah... After the first one or 2 people died, someone had to say....Wait! Don't touch it. 😂. If not, they weren't very good at researching.
Nope, not Savathun. Clovis was just as bad and he wasn't impersonated. Clovis is the one who shot down all the ships contacting the Ishtar Collective who became the founders of Neomuna. Why does everyone try to blame Savathun as if humanity isn't just as bad. Warlords in Destiny were horrific, besides anyone who comes into direct contact with the Veil gets corrupted by their desires anyway.
[Big spoiler for people that didn't see The Witness's Origins] In the cinematic, the Veil was discovered by the Witness's people. Making a direct connection to it. Which means, wherever the Veil is, the Witness have a faint idea where its location is or its consciousness is directly connected to it. Savathûn was hiding the Veil to severe or weaken that connection or to corrupt the planet with its radiation ? I think Maya came too close to a Darkness artifact (Black Garden gate, Veiled statue or even maybe the Exos) that was emitting radiation (a bit like the Veil is doing, but less potent) and got corrupted by it, making a direct connection to the Witness. Knowing the Ishtar and its scientists, they came in contact with a lot of Darkness residue around Sol. Thus why the Witness came to know its location at a given time, through Maya. Stasis is doing the very same to our Ghost, since stasis is about control. A direct corruption. In Lightfall, the Witness is using our Ghost directly to create a link. What I think is, The Witness tried once with Maya to create that link, but couldn't because she probably died during the process.
What I’m most curious about is if the Witness is a collective of an alien race then would they also have individuals like murderers and mentally ill? And if so how has the witness been stable since D1 because that’s a lot voices to hear on the daily lol
Who said the Witness was stable? Stable individuals don't commit mass genocide my guy and before that it tells them that it is salvation. Wtf, you're definition of stable and The dictionary are miles apart.
Either maya becomes her own version of the witness(future raid boss?) or savathun was trying to see how the witness was created to maybe figure out how to kill him?
Makes me wonder if the collapse was caused by the Ishtar collective messing around with the Veil. Maybe the Traveler thought we starting to become like the race of the Witness and decided it was not going to happen.
I love how evaze's friends main objective during important dialogue is to mess up the recording by making as much noise as humanly possible.
I was gonna say 😂
I would expect no less from a guardian named DookieBootyFartWater
@@Ave_Echidna
How is that name not banned? Had a clan member named KanyeLuvsFstnFish & it got canned...🤣
@@KermitOfWarthere’s one named LoveCraft’s Cat so just think about that
@@darthraven9534elaborate?
After hearing this, I wouldn't be surprised if the cloud-ark was a step to collect all the consciousness of the people in one place so the could be combined.
I was thinking the same thing.
Interesting
!!!!!!!!! genius!!
Truly horrifying thought.
OMG! This theory could become a reality
Wait, there's been a mission to do with the Veil EACH WEEK? I thought that was a one-off at the start of the season. I feel like that could have been better advertised.
"We want more secrets ingame" - the community
@@Cony394 It's hard to categorize this as a "secret." It's a multi-stage weekly quest where the first part is made very obvious and then each subsequent week just isn't put on your quest log for uncertain reasons. This feels like something that everyone was supposed to know about but that wasn't clearly indicated, rather than something that was intentionally hidden for people to discover.
@@Cony394This shouldn’t be/isn’t meant to be a secret though. The entire point of the mission was to find out what the veil was. It’s literally just poor communication from Bungie.
@@Cony394this is different
@@Cony394he fact you skewed nearly 4 million players words just shows your intelligence...
"We want more story in game" referring to the fact we have to READ everything. Oddly enough nobody ever said these give story at all. Had we known that, trust me, everyone would be doing it.
We asked for more story in game, not a mini quest that doesn't show up anywhere on the map except neomuna. No quest, not a single marker. Only when you specifically open neomuna. And even then it's thrown out of focus by the massive vex incursion symbol.
A more accurate way to have done this, would have been to fucking include all of this shit in the mission itself while exploring the place. But no, it's one time every week, in an obscured mission on a planet everyone's burnt out on.
To make people better understand. Think of the veil as something similar to the Artifact from Dead Space. Literally bring peace and "unity" across the galaxy.... in the most horrific way possible.
Make Us Whole.
The Convergence
Altman be praised
The cloud striders, their memories are all saved right in those lil pillars we see, what if thats just storage till enough have been "saved" to make a new witness.
This would explain their short lifespan, shorter lives, saved memories, faster turn around in getting a larger pool to merge. What if the striders were meant to be the best humanity had to offer, those willing to die to protect life and this allows the forming of a new witness but the goal is to be a protector and hero.
We're proof though, that using the darkness doesn't make you evil, darkness isn't inherently evil, if it's the thing that governs the metaphysical, then it is emotions like anger and hatred, but it's also happiness and love. And I personally think it's VERY clear that the traveller and the light aren't inherently good either, as Osiris says in his analysis of our different powers, solar, the power of the sun, this absolute destructive force of hellfire, is also what we use to heal, and cure. The witness isn't some god, it's a race of alien beings using the darkness, yes it's got more mastery over the darkness than anything else, but it's using it as we use the light and dark.
Every time I hear about Maya Sunderesh I just hope that Praedyth pops up
Cloud Striders have "nanite colonies" so I would almost assume these were reversed engineered from radiolaria or it was directly used in their make up and the veil provided the "Clarity." Cloudstriders are basically bootleg Exos, hence the 10 year lifespan because their organic bodies can't keep up with the damage and don't have the durability of the Exo frames. Maya essentially tried to be Clovis and couldn't recreate what he perfected.
Exos don't have superhuman strength and agility.
@supercato9613 like shaxx's redjacks? Sure. But exo guardians kinda contradicts that.
@@likwid_smokeimagine reprised wrath with the enhanced siva 😳
@@likwid_smoke or you know, guardians of any race
@@supercato9613 Each exo has a special ability to use, what those abilities are and what they can be is anyone's guess but there are so little exos from the golden age that are still alive which is why we don't see any besides guardians and vendors
I didn’t know there was more recording after the hand cannon quest. But it was cool to know more.
Watch Mya be Savathun (shes the one who put it there after all)
THEY TRY TO DO WHAT NOW!!!
I read this in Tom the Fish voice from SpongeBob 😂😂😂
YOU WHAT !!!!!
Scientist and researchers being amoral in search of results. Sounds very human and from history as well, at got some on our own history who committed heinous acts upon their fellow human in search of results. Writing from humans will reference humanity. 🤷
What would be even scarier if Maya succeeded in creating another Witness.
Also there was a lore card that mentioned that not all of the Witness' species may have agreed with, or were a willing part of, the rests plans of merging together.
Maybe something will happen ,like few voices inside witness opposing his plans but majority silencing them,and we as a guardians will try to use that
@@Spr0ket some savathun type shit but for the witness 👁️👁️
Hear me out: the veil and the cloud ark are the end goal of what Clovis bray was trying to achieve. The reason that Maya sundaresh wasn't scared or shocked when that team went brain dead was because she was used to seeing it. The cloud ark, the ark striders, and the veil are the end that Clovis could never find. Think of Maya working backwards from where Clovis tried to get to, but she retrofitted things to achieve that. Both of them were spoken to by the whisper that told them what to do.
There always seems to be certain level of advantages when you have individuals operating in opposite extremes.
the veil is the travelers other half, it wasn't made by humans
@@TheDarkMaster312 I wasn't suggesting that. The vex were trying to recreate the veil and Clovis got involved in that which eventually lead to the exo program which was a way of preserving your consciousness forever much in the same way the cloud ark works by way of the veil. (I understand there's probably more involved to this. It's a rough theory.) The vex, failing to recreate the veil helped Clovis create a micro cloud ark to upload a consciousness into. (the cloud ark may be based on vex tech as well, I've also considered that because of the way the vex exist as a body when really they are what's in the radiolarian fluid. I'm just throwing some fun speculation out there since we have to have a vex season coming soon.)
Nope, both Sundaresh and Bray were both led astray by whispers of Darkness that corrupt the mind of mortals. This should be evident as the people who became the Witness did the same and decided to take the Traveler power to remake the universe. You fall to the Darkness influence, you get a God complex. Look at the similarities, only difference is we have no idea how many epochs the people who became the Witness progressed before they encountered the Veil.
If you think back to light and dark, they are called rules of the universe. They are usually not to far from one another. Witness people according to Ahsa lived in a City of Light, didn't say how big but they were blessed without reserve for who knows how long. No they didn't have Guardians (this is new), they were just like blessed humanity, they lived insanely long and knowledge moved forward at an amazing pace. One key thing Ahsa says, it never spoke to them. Light and Darkness speaks to no one, what you hear in the Darkness is your own desires and fears. The being who those powers belong to doesn't have those emotions because they aren't necessary as it has no life span nor fear of death.
The Witness has found a way to use the Darkness to whisper what those seeking answers what they wish to hear. Clovis Bray says the Darkness told him to build the vex portal, like what? So he could create something to make himself be the hero, like I said darkness brings to the surface desires and you choose the path to accomplish it.
The Witness is a victim of their own desires. I truly hope we get to see these malevolent asshats get their just desserts. For their goal, all other life are insignificant. I want to Thunder crash its face, because it's the equivalent of an immoral scientist. Just like Maya Sundaresh results, no matter the cost of lives.
I wonder if Maya was Savathun in disguise? Maybe creating her own "witness" and possibly trying to copy the power the witness possesses? They found the veil pretty quickly considering colony ships seemed to not go as far as Neptune. If Savathun was good enough to hide the Veil from an entity as powerful as the Witness, how could they have found it so easily? Maybe Savathun disguised herself as Maya when she hid the Veil in order to study it for herself.
Grasping at straws here, but now that Savathun has the light, the only thing left would be to connect to the veil to obtain that power the society that the Witness was born from wanted. Maybe Savathuns plan was went as far as to study the veil to know everything about it before sacrificing herself to obtain the light, which was why it was so important for us to get Savathun to get her memories back... Plus she had the Traveler trapped in her throne world, just like the Witness had the Traveler trapped in the beginning of Lightfall? I see lots of connections.
Man, I hope Calus' mind wasn't catalogued inside the veil when we killed him.
Everything that have ever lived and died is stored inside the Veil.
Either the Witness has a better connection to the Veil than we realize or the Veil itself was the one that influenced the Witness to fuse themselves.
Let’s not forget that the witness’s people were once blessed with the light. Most likely something like guardians. Imagine if all of us saw the same desires as the witness. Nothing could stop us from committing mass extinction to our self’s if we saw that the traveler never spoke to us and saw the light as a weekness and the veil the source of exsisting making us no different then the avatar of darkness
Seems like any species that lived under the Traveler would eventually become discontented.
@@miniverse2002 we even started to doubt it after it revived savathun and when it started to leave us. At some point something is gonna happen
@@miniverse2002That's not it at all. The people who became the Witness, didn't experience anything like it brought upon everyone else. How did you people miss this fact?!? They were the first to be blessed by the Traveler and they got to the point, they lived too long and had no purpose. They went out to the stars and eventually found the device they called the Veil. It's obvious what happened to Sundaresh team, more than likely happened to some of them. I'm willing to bet before this they never experienced death. Ahsa said it was a City of Light. They chose to interfere with that device, hit corrupted by is power and then led by their own desires brought it back with the intention of connecting it to the Traveler (according to them was their Gardener). Apparently whatever they learned from the Darkness, yet we're afraid of it and saw the life giving universe shaping powers of the Traveler was the only way to change/prevent it. So they wanted to take power that didn't belong to them and remake the universe how they saw fit.
Everyone else in Destiny were blessed, but got lost in their own entitlement and fought amongst each other. The Cabal, Eliskni, Humanity as well, everyone else got murdered into extinction by the same ones who didn't want to die. Kind of full of shit these first beings are. Then had the never to say that the Traveler is the one feeling pain and bringing life only brings more pain as death comes. Mind you the Witness is the one handing out death certificates. These cowards made themselves one being, killed billions all in the chase to gain power that didn't belong to it, to play God.
There's no Good ending for Destiny, we're all gonna die. The order is what I'm interested in, I'm sure that the Witness connecting to the Traveler using the Veil set of events that will destroy all life including the Witness. Notice that even that it using darkness, it cannot leave the simulation, nor do I think it knows that the power does not give from within this universe, but it's from outside of it.
Maybe the final shape is the witness. Maybe the veil is the winnower and it’s goal is to merge all life into a single god like entity
So the final shape is a final form of all life in a universe to become a god we don’t want to end up just like the witness like forgetting who we were and attacking worlds and species with no reason we don’t want to become a monster
And then do what? Create life in it's image? To what purpose? If all life is 'perfect' and the most 'perfect' expression is a single entity living that perfect life, without change ,without challenge for all of eternity, then that 'perfection' is best experienced alone, with none other to share it's glory. The simple reason being that "another" would not necessarily share the same perspective on that 'perfection' and dissention is chaos, and chaos is suffering, suffering is pain and pain marrs perfection.
But the disciples see themselves more than gods so doesn’t the witness also think that way too? So my question is what’s above a god?
@@DragonKnight90001 Honestly I think it's more that megalomaniacs are more likely to buy into the Witness' ideology. But Eramis has joined the Witness simply because she believes it is the only way to end the suffering of her people. I think the Witness doesn't see itself so much as a god and more of an answer to a problem.
@@reamoinmcdonachadh9519 exactly remember in the witnesses backs toward his people. Found the traveler and it gave them gifts knowledge technology to travel among the Stars to better themselves. And then eventually when you seen it all done it all solved every problem there's nothing for you to do.
You start to lose meaning and purpose in your life and that's what happened to the witnesses. Race lost all meaning they lost all-purpose everything that they've done. they've already done it they probably even solved immortality.
And then when they finally just turned to their God they're god. Remain silent The traveler didn't tell them what to do. What's next on the agenda we solve all of our problems what is there for us to do.
The traveler is a terraformer more than anything he's not going to the traveler is not just going to tell you. Hey I want you to do XY and z and stop being stupid.
No that's the thing about the traveler he gives you a choice. Freedom chaos to do whatever you please I mean look at the first generation of guardians. They practically did whatever they wanted killed a bunch of people and started making warlords.
It was until years later that the killing and the violence needs to stop. And maybe there might be a better way of using your powers. But did The traveler tell them this no the traveler never told them.
Anything in so many words it was just like a hint or a greater. understanding of maybe we should use these powers to fight against Darkness. But not Darkness itself but fight against the witness in so many ways.
The traveler gives free will to all you can use your powers however you want. And the witness hated that life without no meaning no purpose life and death all that stuff.
The witnesses people found that boring destructive chaotic and it needed to be controlled. Maybe their purpose was to give perfection to the entire universe everyone is perfect. Everyone is immortal no crime no envy hatred and bigotry all these Petty things are done away with and everyone is the same you know what your purpose is you know what the goal will be next time everyone knows everything you know your fate you know your destiny you know what you're supposed to do you know you're going to die and you make peace with that it's control on a global universal everything manufactured and controlled like an assembly line.
They will be no surprises you'll know who you're going to get married to you know how many children you have and then you know how you'll die.
I wonder if it’s a coincidence that what’s happening with the Neomuni is the same as those who found the witness. They found it and learned from it, used it, then developed into a golden age. They talk about things like salvation. Could they be moving towards a similar fate as The Witness? Maybe eventually they come for the traveller and try to combine them themselves, sort of the opposite of the witness’s species.
Also this is perfectly setting up another season with BrayTech and Clovis
These missions should've been compliments to the Season Pass, and advertised in such a way all players knew about it. It would've held back lots of the criticism Destiny has gotten lately.
This dialogue almost gives the idea that the vex are the original final shape or maybe just the prejenitor of witness was. The vex (Radiolaira) is a organism that is a hive mind of microorganisms driven by a single obsession ; curiosity.
The final shape is just a point where there is no more life in the universe. It's not some special thing. If it's final that means for the Gardener, the board is restarted and the Gardening starts anew.
I bet the Witness’s name has something to do with that quantum observer hypothesis. In quantum mechanics, things exist in flux until they’re observed (or witnessed) by a conscious viewer. What would the Witness want to do that to I wonder? Maybe something like the Awoken Distributary, but with the whole universe?
Nimbus asking if he could time travel after learning he could be part Vex is probably the only funny thing he's said
You must have been waiting months up come out with that zinger. 🤔
They, Nimbus is non-binary.
The witness spoke to us in our own voice as well. In our own image even
It may be that the Veil is the real mastermind despite doing nothing and that any species that comes across it is influenced in a subtle way to create a Witness.
@@miniverse2002 it’s definitely starting to look that way. Love the more drip in Veil Containment
Von Neumann-wigner interpretation is not just about consciousness, with a thought experiment "Wigner's friend"(many videos on youtube) similar to "Schrodinger's cat" it proves and postulates that "Mind" is the true measurement apparatus and is non-physical i.e you can't measure it...
i think this might be hinting to how cayde might come back and why he looks kinda supercharged !!
The place where cayde is it's like a memory of everything that's ever happened. He's not really there, just a memory so to speak
Those Ishtar fellas, ex Twitch employees I bet, couldn't get their hands on Savathun's bath water, so they had no other choice but to improvise. Baby Witness was almost born.
In case you wanted an easier way to to refer to what the witness is you can use the term gestalt entity
gestalt entity is a being that is made up of more than one consciousness,
blended together to become much greater than the sum of its parts.
Dig up homie. Get clarity from the giant veiled statue, the one that moves. Blend in some vex juice and hand him Ace. We get our boy back.
I told everyone that exos were made from collecting knowledge on the vex and possibly created in a similar way with similar pieces.
Seems like Nimbus and Osiris are getting along
Plot twist we have to fight the cloudstrider as a boss
'Member when the FWC was making vex goggles and saying shit like this was gonna happen but they called us crazy???
Pepperidge Farms 'Member's
by the way, Ishtar symbol reminds me of the traveler surrounded by the pyramids
I feel like maybe that's savathun doing these experiments.
I think Dr. Shonda rouse was good still and the reason why is because she accomplished her go and making another witness. All others are connected through a river, a river of souls. They may still possess individuality, but they are the witness too which is why we're able to use strand because she created this from darkness and the river are souls provided us with straind
So fighting a vex squadron is like fighting a pacific ring mech full of frat bros?
This dialogue reminds me of that recording of the female scientist on Miranda at the end of Serenity.
why is it all the scientists we have encountered in d2 from the golden age are absolutely crazy? First Clovis Bray and now this...
Coming into contact with the Darkness brings out their desires that's why. The people who are the Witness underwent the same thing. Did you listen to each week of reveals from Ahsa? The second to last explained who the Witness once was and their desire to use the Traveler powers to shape the universe. Scientist were the ones who found and studied the Veil and then we got this madness.
What if Mya was savathun?
That's what I believe
It seems like Dr Sundaresh was a lot like Clovis Bray
I think the final shape is infinity. This is what happens when the veil connects to the traveler and makes the physical shape of infinity as well as combine their paracausal powers of light and dark to make time infinite. Constantly in both the last and the future. Time stoppage. No more chaos. No more death. No more anything.
Kind of makes sense when you draw the infinity symbol with the Veil and the Traveler together.
Sounds very familiar.
Similar to the creation of the philosopher's stone in Fullmetal Alchemist.
10:17 DookieBootyFartWater ??? 😂😂😂
Crazy how scary Billboarding would be to actually see happen. Person could be talking to you then they just become a mannequin.
Humans are machines, they'll collapse in the floor at that point you'll panic thinking they're having some sort of fainting spell. You watched too many futuristic movies, thinking people just stop moving and balance in a catatonic state. Naw, that isn't how reality works.
"DookyBootyFartWater" what a username 9:50
My personal theory about the Veil is as follows:
As the Traveler used light to affect living creatures, giving them a golden age, The Veil created Radiolaria which eventually became the Vex.
When the Witnesses race found the Veil, and gained access to the information/memories within, they learned of the Vex, and their shared mind. They came to the conclusion that a 'shared consciousness' was as close to perfection as the Veil could achieve. They planned to merge the Veils methods with the Travelers gifts to create perfection. When the Traveler fled their plans to merge it with the Veil, they incorporated the Veils design of a shared mind, and pushed it even further. They merged everyone into a 'near perfect being'.
It also explains why the Vex followed the Veil to Neomuna. And many other things that will end up connected to the Veil.
And also, the only reason the Veil, and the darkness, has memories is because of the Veil's connection to the Vex, who's time travel and simulation allows them to witness and learn all that is recorded or remembered. They probably connect to the Veil through the eregore, so all their knowledge is shared with their 'God'.
And it also explains their attempt to create the 'Black Heart', and why it was a failed attempt at re-creating the Veil, and why they worshipped it.
That’s what I’ve been SAYING FOR A MONTH NOW!!
Makes sense actually
You sound crazy, who have you been saying this to and what have you been saying? Your comment looks crazy because you fall to give context.
For context I was over exaggerating, any idea or theory always gets scrapped or merged into somebody’s post. Like at most I’ll get three comments then some jackass shows up, takes it and hundreds of people see it. I’ve said the Witness had overlapping voices, multiple heads, a flowing head that reminds of the ebb and flow of the water thanks to Nimbus’ story. The “We” is constantly emphasized, it moves as if it has to ask the multiple beings permission (Granted I said only 10 or 8 beings but new lore says otherwise) I’ve stated that the Witness may not be a singular entity but a sole product of manipulation by the Veil entity. They were trying to merge consciousness like Calus’ crown of sorrow and subsequently the Veil. I’ll say more later
Don’t forget savathun did know about the veil. Maybe she was behind this in some way
And beyond light-
They didn't pronounce Von Neumann correctly. Not a big issue but still drives me crazy.
I think a lot of people aren't even putting things together. After Ahsa's reveal, it's become clear that the people who are the Witness became corrupted after coming into contact with the 'Veil'. They detected a signal like the Traveler and went to it and then studied it, learned from it. Learned?!? How do you learn from something that doesn't speak? Their desires surfaced and I'm guessing they saw an end to their civilization and decided that they'll bring it back and connect it to the Traveler. For what purpose, they wanted to use it's power to shape the universe to their liking.
Things aren't clear but it says the Traveler fled. Which to me doesn't make sense. These were the first creation or seems, the art had the Traveler covered in what looked like substrate, and as big as the Traveler is, that's freaking a lot of substrate. So I'll go with this was the place where it entered the universe and was deposited. Now let's get deep, how did a whole civilization flourish and no darkness arrive? Where we the Darkness?!?
I'm here to say the Darkness was without consciousness. That Veil as they called it, is actually a conduit. The ending of Lightfall even showed it as such. It connected to the Traveler, this very same device was used to connect the Witness people to Darkness. So if it can do that, then it means the reason the Traveler is silent is because the consciousness is not there, so where is it?
Not sure, but we've only ever seen the light from the Traveler. What if by connecting to the Traveler, the Witness set in motion the consciousness activating in the Darkness. This could be bad for everyone involved. Based on original lore, the Gardener and Winnower seemed like two beings but they are one but with two minds i guess you can say. Splitting their powers didn't split them, so for all this time the Witness has been using powers that don't belong to it. What if now that the consciousness has awakened in the Darkness with all that's happened wouldn't it be furious? I mean for eons someone else has been abusing your station while attempting to take your other power for itself.
Cut to final shape, the Darkness now fueled by the consciousness that was within the Traveler decides to punish those who misused its power. The orb(Traveler) will be dormant now without a consciousness, but what if that Winnower isn't as easy going as the Gardener. Would be interesting if it starts doing things like depriving the Witness is Darkness or better yet setting up the who were harmed by the Witness BS to trample upon it. Ripping away the abilities derived from Darkness and left bare to pay for their sins against it. Think about it the universe is your garden and one of these dudes started using your tools on you whilst you are stuck with amnesia and one day it all comes back. I once blessed you and this is how you repay me. Time to revel in your despair, you're going to endure eons of torment. Lol
Good job bro
Could the result of Maya’s research be the baby vex mind in the Vex Network?
Pretty sure that's just the remaining fragment of Soteria.
We need golden age Destiny.
I saw how you looked at your friend. I hate when people can’t sit still during dialogue.
ADHD is a big problem in human society. Some people simply can't sit still, always fidgeting and the noise always happens when everyone else is quiet.
all of this crazy lore and seasonal missions and cutscenes should've been in the lightfall campaign but no what all companys think about is money and battle passes.
Good thing you don't run a company, you'd be in the red in less than 3 hours. All companies are here to make money, you think setting up a company, investing in ideas is free?
Didn't shunderesh put out a bunch of copies of herself into the vex network? Could they be combined into a witness like person? It would be interesting if that is who talked to and not the Witness.
That was on Venus, when they first encountered the vex. This stuff is long after that time.
It seems all those who encounter the veil have a fanatical desire to seek salvation. Maya has never been shown to have talked to the witness, so she couldn't have talked to it. What if the veil is the true enemy of the destiny universe. The veil uses some cosmic manipulation that forces its victim to pursue the final shape fanatically, to the point they'd give up their own being. I feel like this could be a twist bungie pulls in the game
This could be their version of the old rumored and scrapped "the traveler is actually evil and the black garden is inside of the travler" plot that supposedly existed in an erarly stage of the development. Would be very inconvienient if the veil turned out to be evil since the cloud ark and the neomuna people kinda is inside the veil. But it would offer a kind of symmetry 2 last cities 2 slumbering god machines. Would majorly suck if we had to kill all the people in the cloud ark to save the world.
I do hope its more of an blue and orange morality thing. The Veil may influence people but it doesn't have a will or mind of its own.
What if they created "THE NINE" which ARE beings of higher plane like witness!!!
Dookiebootyfartwater is an amazing name lol
You can't help but laugh every time you see the name lol 😂
Wish Quinn had speaking parts throughout the veil containment… rather hear more of her as… well this is more her field than Nimbus
More we know of Ishtar more we learn horrible things they did or wanted to do 😂
How can the entire research team die? Did they say, alright, on the count of 3, let's all touch it together. Nah... After the first one or 2 people died, someone had to say....Wait! Don't touch it. 😂. If not, they weren't very good at researching.
I need a fireteam
Where are these conversations coming from in the game? I haven't seen anything new pop-up in awhile since the light fall campaign
Is this the way we gonna "resurrect" Cayde 6 (an exo)?
Mia sounds possessed
Maya parallels Clovis
I told you puck nenomoona people
What if the veil turned them into radiolaria
What if it was savathun impersonating maya? Just thought thatd be interesting as a little point because maya seemed to be unbothered
Nope, not Savathun. Clovis was just as bad and he wasn't impersonated. Clovis is the one who shot down all the ships contacting the Ishtar Collective who became the founders of Neomuna. Why does everyone try to blame Savathun as if humanity isn't just as bad. Warlords in Destiny were horrific, besides anyone who comes into direct contact with the Veil gets corrupted by their desires anyway.
]]]Judgement. Death. Perfection.[[[
---⅄on ɐɹǝ ʇɥǝ pooɹ---
What if Clovis gains access to this tech?
Dead men can't do anything.
where is this weekly dialogue coming from?
[Big spoiler for people that didn't see The Witness's Origins]
In the cinematic, the Veil was discovered by the Witness's people. Making a direct connection to it.
Which means, wherever the Veil is, the Witness have a faint idea where its location is or its consciousness is directly connected to it.
Savathûn was hiding the Veil to severe or weaken that connection or to corrupt the planet with its radiation ?
I think Maya came too close to a Darkness artifact (Black Garden gate, Veiled statue or even maybe the Exos) that was emitting radiation (a bit like the Veil is doing, but less potent) and got corrupted by it, making a direct connection to the Witness. Knowing the Ishtar and its scientists, they came in contact with a lot of Darkness residue around Sol.
Thus why the Witness came to know its location at a given time, through Maya.
Stasis is doing the very same to our Ghost, since stasis is about control. A direct corruption.
In Lightfall, the Witness is using our Ghost directly to create a link. What I think is, The Witness tried once with Maya to create that link, but couldn't because she probably died during the process.
Guys, what if The Witness isn't the big bad after all? What if it's literally been *The Veil* this whole time?
What I’m most curious about is if the Witness is a collective of an alien race then would they also have individuals like murderers and mentally ill? And if so how has the witness been stable since D1 because that’s a lot voices to hear on the daily lol
I assume the majority would overpower the minority.
Who said the Witness was stable? Stable individuals don't commit mass genocide my guy and before that it tells them that it is salvation. Wtf, you're definition of stable and The dictionary are miles apart.
Either maya becomes her own version of the witness(future raid boss?) or savathun was trying to see how the witness was created to maybe figure out how to kill him?
Or become the Hive in a very literal sense.
Makes me wonder if the collapse was caused by the Ishtar collective messing around with the Veil. Maybe the Traveler thought we starting to become like the race of the Witness and decided it was not going to happen.
DookieBootyFartWater 😂😂😂
Honest question but is everyone in the destiny universe apart of the lgbtq+ community 🤔
100th like
Almost every relationship reflected on in Destiny 2 is a gay relationship...... just an observation
Eh, good thing the Yuri is ded in destiny.
Dookiebootyfartwater