To be fair the reason Janeway allied with the Borg rather than Species 8472 is because of the latters objective to purge all life in the galaxy. Seeing as how Species 8472 was an unknown and seemingly a more formidable opponent than the Borg she decided to ally with the devil she knew.
Janeway thinking it was OK to help the Borg assimilate Species 8472 was insane. It's like she suddenly forgot that when the Borg assimilates a species, they acquire the species' technology and knowledge. The Borg are already one of the biggest threats, if not the biggest, threat in the entire galaxy. If they learned all of Species 8472's secrets, there'd be nothing that could stop them.
This wasn't to have the Borg assimilate 8472. It was a WMD. 8472 are unable to be assimilated, quite clearly demonstrated by the doctor. 8472 was also worse then the borg as they make clear to Kes, "the weak will perish."
I don't think the bioweapon could assimilate Species 8472, I think the probes were only capable of kilingl the cells and they could barerly handle that. Besides given that Species 8472 desired to purge all life in the galaxy and how they were seemingly a more potent threat than the borg, due to the fact they were kicking the borgs collective ass, I think it was prudent to level the playingfield a little before the borg were wiped out, after all there are few other players in the galaxy capable of standing up to 8472 if left to their own devieces unless Q would decide to get involved but you can't count on that.
sfamerken12 Nope, the Doctor actually says that the modified nanoprobes do assimilate the Species 8472 cells but that they're programmed to deactivate and take the 8472 cell with it. So all the Borg have to do is modify the programming. Also, Chakotay specifically brings up the possibility that they could be helping the Borg to assimilate 8472. And Janeway's only response was to ask him to trust her.
So there is a full segment on the doctors presentation showing the assimilation type nanoprobes being destroyed by the 8472 cells. What Chakotay was saying was that it could open the door to the Borg finding a way to assimilate 8472, but the doctor found that highly unlikely due to the immense genome of 8472. So voyager still made a WMD.
sfamerken12 EMH: I hope to unleash an army of modified Borg nanoprobes into his bloodstream, designed to target and eradicate the infection. As you know, I've been analysing the nanoprobes. They're efficient little assimilators, one can't help but admire the workmanship. But they're no match for the alien cells. So I successfully dissected a nanoprobe and managed to access its re-coding mechanism. I reprogrammed the probe to emit the same electrochemical signatures as the alien cells. That way, the probe can do its work without being detected. EMH: I replicated nearly ten million Borg nanoprobes, each of them reprogrammed to my specifications, each capable of targeting the alien tissue. CHAKOTAY: Assimilating it. EMH: Just momentarily. The Borg technology will denaturate within seconds, taking the alien tissue along with it. Mister Kim, I'm about to inject your carotid artery. You'll feel a tingling sensation. Don't be alarmed. The Doctor made zero mentions that the Borg couldn't assimilate 8472 due to their genome. He outright says that the nanoprobes destroy the 8472 cells by assimilating them.
Look back at past comments of this two-parter episode from various videos/authors, some would think that Janeway committed genocide by helping the Borg defeat a more serious threat. She knew the Borg will try to assimilate Voyager anyways regardless of an alliance, but she had hope that she could see some good in the Borg. I agreed with Commander Chakotay 110% when he said, it is wrong to help an enemy who killed and assimilate people regardless of the rights of the individual(s), just to get themselves home. But when you're dealing with the devil, you better have a deceitful plan of your own because it is highly likely he will back stab you first.
Hey SFDebris! I'm glad I found your channel again. I used to follow you years ago, but got busy with life when Blip went down. Subbed & notifications activated again.
Janeway : so the only thing that can stop the Borg is this technology? Borg : We totally promise not to stab you in the back as we always do ha ha ha. Janeway : They seem like honest folk. Let's give our mortal enemies the ultimate weapon, why not?
Good to see you here again by the way. Was going to subscribe to you on Blip, but still waiting for my account confirmation e-mail. I wonder what's taking them so long ...
Long time fan of your work and while it pains me a little to see you having to make some cuts adhere to youtube's standards your style, insight, and humor in these reviews is always welcome. :) I actually do remember catching this episode when it first aired and while it didn't quite reach Best of Both Worlds level of tension, surprise, or anticipation to see how the story played out it did come pretty damn close. And for Voyager that really is saying something. One of my long standing laments about the series is that while it started with a good premise and lots of potential it also seemed to constantly squander that potential in favor of constant reset button slamming and inexplicable character focus and arcs. Scorpion is indeed flawed but it did show what Voyager could do when it knuckled down and played to it's strengths. The set up is a good one: we need to get across this hostile area of space with no help, no backup, and with the very real possibility we will fail. The introduction of Species 8472, not only being so alien and strange they border on Lovecraftian but also able to handily thump the previously thought nigh unstoppable Borg, really upped the stakes and shook the status quo. That cold open of them just slapping down some cubes like they were made of tissue paper certainly grabs the attention. The gradual reveal of all of this does keep you involved, curious to see what direction the story was going next. We're as puzzled as the crew when all those cubes just fly by without so much as a word. Speaking of the crew this was one of the few times all get just enough focus to show them bringing each of their unique strengths to the table. Yeah, the transporter malfunction is cliched and "skeletal lock" is a little silly, but at least it showed them trying some creativity in facing a problem. Even the much hated Neelix is pretty tolerable. Janeway's choice to try to bargain with the Borg, and friction it brings with Chekotay, was indeed a well done character moment and only helped to raise the tension as the heads of the respective crew factions were at odds at a time when everyone REALLY needed to be on the same page. And the final cliffhanger does hook you and make you want to come back for more. As you yourself once opined, all of that was stuff Voyager should have been doing all along and to see them doing it here, and not doing more after, really does make the few flaws the episode has stick out all the more. Janeway's sudden willingness to strike a deal, even if it's with the devil, doesn't hit quite as hard or keep with her character as it probably should (i.e. like Sisko in In The Pale Moonlight) because her characterization had been so inconsistent up to that point. Chekotay's sudden resistance feels a little like it comes out of nowhere since he had seemed pretty happy to just nod and grunt along to her past plans. And for all their build up Species 8472 really would get a really disappointing follow up down the road. But if wishes were horses beggars would ride and for what it was Scorpion does indeed deserve some praise not only for what it was but for showing us, however briefly, how it all could have been.
I wonder, is this you trying the waters of UA-cam again? Given the number of video sites you've had to travel, I'm not too surprised your trying things out just in case again.
I don’t mind having new videos however as Linkara has noticed UA-cam isn’t super friendly with there monotization program. Anyways don’t forget about the main site cause I prefer an in-depth analysis.
This is actually an old video re-edited to be clipless and youtube-friendly. The actual script seems like it wasn't touched but the ending was new, and for some things, if he reviewed them 10 years ago, his opinion may have changed on them some over time He's also slowing down on doing a new Trek video every week because after 10 years he's done 2/3 of the episodes and basically all the interesting ones and will run out eventually, so now he's doing 3 Trek videos a month plus a revisit, instead of 4 new ones.
You forgot to mention how their Northwest "shortcut" has a bad habit of getting lots of explorers killed, like Franklin's Lost Expedition where everyone died in the cold.
Useful format, although I'd recommend leaving the pictures up until the next one is needed. Constantly going back to the background image is distracting, at least to me.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if the borg assimilate that species, then what could stop them? That species was capable of moon busting with what sounds like minimal effort, and in open combat were able to devastate what had been the most advanced species yet seen in direct battle.
I doubt I'm the only person to say this, but I wonder how much better this show would've gotten if Chakotay had taken advantage of Starfleet regulations to remove Janeway and just run the ship himself.
You keep saying that giving bio weapons to someone sounds more like the Maquis then it doe the Federation but, and corect me if I'm wrong, doesn't Sisko do just that? not to mention actually use such weapons against said Maquis?
Trying out a new, UA-cam-friendly format, I see. Well, can't speak for anyone else, but I like it. Just as entertaining as your regular videos, only without the strike-bait of video clips and music cues. Thumbs up. :)
What...why is this review here? Why is it happening? We already had a full Scorpion review, I'm so confused...Why did we even get a bunch of Star Trek reviews at once? I'm not in the know! What's going on???
With the show's 10th anniversary, I've reworked some of the classics so that they can return to UA-cam. You can expect these to be a monthly feature now!
He's still got at least a hundred or so episodes of Trek left to do, including the last two movies, plus a current ongoing series, not to mention The Orville and various other Trek tributes if he starts running low. And that's not even counting the hundreds of other properties he can tap into once the Trek well runs dry. He's got plenty of videos left in him, I'm sure.
It's called monetization. Despite the adpocalypse, UA-cam is still the best platform for monetizing videos with ads. It is also the only truly stable video host. He's just branching out to keep the show going. It's a good idea.
He's re-editing some videos to be clipless and thus youtube friendly. (And given how many times he's jumped hosts now, seems like a good future-proofing.) The actual script seems like it wasn't touched but the ending was new, and for some things, if he reviewed them 10 years ago, his opinion may have changed on them some over time He's also slowing down on doing a new Trek video every week because after 10 years he's done 2/3 of the episodes and basically all the interesting ones and will run out eventually, so now he's doing 3 Trek videos a month plus a revisit, instead of 4 new one.
IRONMANAustralia STD(how I didn't think of that myself is beyond me) really screwed up by trying to make the Klingons as different from humans as they possibility could. The entire reason the Romulans/Vulcans, Klingons, and Humans look similar is because we all shall a common ancestor and to make them look so different hurts that... They also look really stupid. Like, I'm watching that an like "I'm hearing Klingon & I see Klingon weapons, but I see no Klingons"
Huh, this is interesting. Trying out a new review format to make it YT-friendly because YT is unfriendly? Good idea, especially for those who for various reasons can't watch Vimeo. I will admit to a slight disappointment though that this is what ends the 10th anniversary celebration, even if your review of Discovery's Context is for Kings was great. With that whole theme of regrets and moving forward, plus having reviewed one episode from each of the previous shows alongside welcoming the new one with three reviews, I was half-expecting the 10th review to be the long-awaited look at Into Darkness. Ah well, this was still good. Into Darkness (and Beyond) will have its time on the show eventually.
Its only logical that you upload more on UA-cam to draw in new viewers. I do prefer the version on your site mostly because the jokes work better there but you'll probably improve you when you do these more frequently.
helping the borg in this story was illogical and idioctic. you have no way of knowing that species 8472 will attack the federation and if they do you have a weapon to defend yourself, where as the borg will continue to adapt to your weapons and will clearly turn against you, due to their need to assimilate (the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, especially after the enemy is defeated, plus species 8472 isn't your enemy in the first place). so logically the only approach is to use the distraction of a losing war to travel through borg space and in the process leave your greatest enermy, who can't be negotiated with, to be destoryed.
They straight up say they want to elimate all life in the galaxy and have the means to do so. Its a choice between a slowly expanding cancer and an omnicidal race.
This took me back to when I used to watch all your Trek reviews on UA-cam :-)
Welcome back to the Dark Side. We've missed you.
To be fair the reason Janeway allied with the Borg rather than Species 8472 is because of the latters objective to purge all life in the galaxy. Seeing as how Species 8472 was an unknown and seemingly a more formidable opponent than the Borg she decided to ally with the devil she knew.
Moardieb
It is deciding whether u want everyone to die or to get imprisoned.
Janeway thinking it was OK to help the Borg assimilate Species 8472 was insane. It's like she suddenly forgot that when the Borg assimilates a species, they acquire the species' technology and knowledge. The Borg are already one of the biggest threats, if not the biggest, threat in the entire galaxy. If they learned all of Species 8472's secrets, there'd be nothing that could stop them.
This wasn't to have the Borg assimilate 8472. It was a WMD. 8472 are unable to be assimilated, quite clearly demonstrated by the doctor.
8472 was also worse then the borg as they make clear to Kes, "the weak will perish."
I don't think the bioweapon could assimilate Species 8472, I think the probes were only capable of kilingl the cells and they could barerly handle that. Besides given that Species 8472 desired to purge all life in the galaxy and how they were seemingly a more potent threat than the borg, due to the fact they were kicking the borgs collective ass, I think it was prudent to level the playingfield a little before the borg were wiped out, after all there are few other players in the galaxy capable of standing up to 8472 if left to their own devieces unless Q would decide to get involved but you can't count on that.
sfamerken12 Nope, the Doctor actually says that the modified nanoprobes do assimilate the Species 8472 cells but that they're programmed to deactivate and take the 8472 cell with it. So all the Borg have to do is modify the programming.
Also, Chakotay specifically brings up the possibility that they could be helping the Borg to assimilate 8472. And Janeway's only response was to ask him to trust her.
So there is a full segment on the doctors presentation showing the assimilation type nanoprobes being destroyed by the 8472 cells. What Chakotay was saying was that it could open the door to the Borg finding a way to assimilate 8472, but the doctor found that highly unlikely due to the immense genome of 8472.
So voyager still made a WMD.
sfamerken12 EMH: I hope to unleash an army of modified Borg nanoprobes into his bloodstream, designed to target and eradicate the infection. As you know, I've been analysing the nanoprobes. They're efficient little assimilators, one can't help but admire the workmanship. But they're no match for the alien cells. So I successfully dissected a nanoprobe and managed to access its re-coding mechanism. I reprogrammed the probe to emit the same electrochemical signatures as the alien cells. That way, the probe can do its work without being detected.
EMH: I replicated nearly ten million Borg nanoprobes, each of them reprogrammed to my specifications, each capable of targeting the alien tissue.
CHAKOTAY: Assimilating it.
EMH: Just momentarily. The Borg technology will denaturate within seconds, taking the alien tissue along with it. Mister Kim, I'm about to inject your carotid artery. You'll feel a tingling sensation. Don't be alarmed.
The Doctor made zero mentions that the Borg couldn't assimilate 8472 due to their genome. He outright says that the nanoprobes destroy the 8472 cells by assimilating them.
At this point I only consume these reviews in audio form on my phone with the screen off, so having them on UA-cam simplifies that experience.
It's like the old days again!
Great to see your stuff in my feed again
I'd suggest putting your site in the description. May even add something like: For a full review of this episode, check out sfdebris.com.
It's pronounced hen-tie.
Like formal wear for chickens.
Peteman12 😺😸😹😸😹
Love the Janeway impersonation. Her voice always grated with me.
Glad you are back!
he hasn't gone anywhere just doesn't post on youtube. sfdebris.com for all his videos.
Look back at past comments of this two-parter episode from various videos/authors, some would think that Janeway committed genocide by helping the Borg defeat a more serious threat. She knew the Borg will try to assimilate Voyager anyways regardless of an alliance, but she had hope that she could see some good in the Borg. I agreed with Commander Chakotay 110% when he said, it is wrong to help an enemy who killed and assimilate people regardless of the rights of the individual(s), just to get themselves home. But when you're dealing with the devil, you better have a deceitful plan of your own because it is highly likely he will back stab you first.
Hey SFDebris! I'm glad I found your channel again. I used to follow you years ago, but got busy with life when Blip went down. Subbed & notifications activated again.
Janeway : so the only thing that can stop the Borg is this technology?
Borg : We totally promise not to stab you in the back as we always do ha ha ha.
Janeway : They seem like honest folk. Let's give our mortal enemies the ultimate weapon, why not?
Good to see you here again by the way. Was going to subscribe to you on Blip, but still waiting for my account confirmation e-mail.
I wonder what's taking them so long ...
ah, that makes me laugh more than it hsould
Just subscribe to the sfdebris.com feed.
Long time fan of your work and while it pains me a little to see you having to make some cuts adhere to youtube's standards your style, insight, and humor in these reviews is always welcome. :)
I actually do remember catching this episode when it first aired and while it didn't quite reach Best of Both Worlds level of tension, surprise, or anticipation to see how the story played out it did come pretty damn close. And for Voyager that really is saying something. One of my long standing laments about the series is that while it started with a good premise and lots of potential it also seemed to constantly squander that potential in favor of constant reset button slamming and inexplicable character focus and arcs. Scorpion is indeed flawed but it did show what Voyager could do when it knuckled down and played to it's strengths.
The set up is a good one: we need to get across this hostile area of space with no help, no backup, and with the very real possibility we will fail. The introduction of Species 8472, not only being so alien and strange they border on Lovecraftian but also able to handily thump the previously thought nigh unstoppable Borg, really upped the stakes and shook the status quo. That cold open of them just slapping down some cubes like they were made of tissue paper certainly grabs the attention. The gradual reveal of all of this does keep you involved, curious to see what direction the story was going next. We're as puzzled as the crew when all those cubes just fly by without so much as a word. Speaking of the crew this was one of the few times all get just enough focus to show them bringing each of their unique strengths to the table. Yeah, the transporter malfunction is cliched and "skeletal lock" is a little silly, but at least it showed them trying some creativity in facing a problem. Even the much hated Neelix is pretty tolerable. Janeway's choice to try to bargain with the Borg, and friction it brings with Chekotay, was indeed a well done character moment and only helped to raise the tension as the heads of the respective crew factions were at odds at a time when everyone REALLY needed to be on the same page. And the final cliffhanger does hook you and make you want to come back for more.
As you yourself once opined, all of that was stuff Voyager should have been doing all along and to see them doing it here, and not doing more after, really does make the few flaws the episode has stick out all the more. Janeway's sudden willingness to strike a deal, even if it's with the devil, doesn't hit quite as hard or keep with her character as it probably should (i.e. like Sisko in In The Pale Moonlight) because her characterization had been so inconsistent up to that point. Chekotay's sudden resistance feels a little like it comes out of nowhere since he had seemed pretty happy to just nod and grunt along to her past plans. And for all their build up Species 8472 really would get a really disappointing follow up down the road.
But if wishes were horses beggars would ride and for what it was Scorpion does indeed deserve some praise not only for what it was but for showing us, however briefly, how it all could have been.
check out his website, and he has allot of extras for patreon subscribers. all his old (and new) videos are posted on his website, sfdebris.com
Good thing Harry didn't get a compound fracture from that alien attack.
That skeletal lock could have been messy.
This is great! I love how you've made a youtube friendly version of a "normal" review, and hope you can eventually do this for all your reviews!
teddy boragina That's alot of work.
I wonder, is this you trying the waters of UA-cam again? Given the number of video sites you've had to travel, I'm not too surprised your trying things out just in case again.
Voltron Weapon , loved it.
Just finishing the 3rd time I've watched voyager in the past 20 years
I don’t mind having new videos however as Linkara has noticed UA-cam isn’t super friendly with there monotization program.
Anyways don’t forget about the main site cause I prefer an in-depth analysis.
This is actually an old video re-edited to be clipless and youtube-friendly. The actual script seems like it wasn't touched but the ending was new, and for some things, if he reviewed them 10 years ago, his opinion may have changed on them some over time
He's also slowing down on doing a new Trek video every week because after 10 years he's done 2/3 of the episodes and basically all the interesting ones and will run out eventually, so now he's doing 3 Trek videos a month plus a revisit, instead of 4 new ones.
I cannot fault your trek logic. You rock.
You forgot to mention how their Northwest "shortcut" has a bad habit of getting lots of explorers killed, like Franklin's Lost Expedition where everyone died in the cold.
I don't think he forgot. I think he kept it short for the sake of flow.
agentm31 Ah
That observation is in the full review.
It's cool that you're trying youtube friendly versions out. Especially with the recent move and everything
Until all the reviews R fixed, this is a good sub.
This episode had one of the most effective cold opens in all of Voyager. Maybe all of Trek. From someone who is generally not much of a Voyager fan.
Love the Ross's Game Dungeon style awards!
Useful format, although I'd recommend leaving the pictures up until the next one is needed. Constantly going back to the background image is distracting, at least to me.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if the borg assimilate that species, then what could stop them? That species was capable of moon busting with what sounds like minimal effort, and in open combat were able to devastate what had been the most advanced species yet seen in direct battle.
"Hope your good looks save you"...funny thing about that....
I doubt I'm the only person to say this, but I wonder how much better this show would've gotten if Chakotay had taken advantage of Starfleet regulations to remove Janeway and just run the ship himself.
😂😂
8:39 its two far more advanced alien species and one side is willing to talk?????????????
Well done!
I liked it! Room for refinement but that'll come with practice.
Is this the one where Tom Paris perfects his quiche
That a way to do UA-cam but I like them movin' pictures more.
You keep saying that giving bio weapons to someone sounds more like the Maquis then it doe the Federation but, and corect me if I'm wrong, doesn't Sisko do just that? not to mention actually use such weapons against said Maquis?
Trying out a new, UA-cam-friendly format, I see. Well, can't speak for anyone else, but I like it. Just as entertaining as your regular videos, only without the strike-bait of video clips and music cues. Thumbs up. :)
What...why is this review here? Why is it happening? We already had a full Scorpion review, I'm so confused...Why did we even get a bunch of Star Trek reviews at once? I'm not in the know! What's going on???
With the show's 10th anniversary, I've reworked some of the classics so that they can return to UA-cam. You can expect these to be a monthly feature now!
Ohh, so that's what's going on.
He's still got at least a hundred or so episodes of Trek left to do, including the last two movies, plus a current ongoing series, not to mention The Orville and various other Trek tributes if he starts running low. And that's not even counting the hundreds of other properties he can tap into once the Trek well runs dry. He's got plenty of videos left in him, I'm sure.
I'm glad we can get some videos on youtube as it broadens the options for viewers, but I'm definitely gonna keep hitting up the main site.
It's called monetization. Despite the adpocalypse, UA-cam is still the best platform for monetizing videos with ads. It is also the only truly stable video host.
He's just branching out to keep the show going. It's a good idea.
you already did this one, whats with the mini reviews?
He's re-editing some videos to be clipless and thus youtube friendly. (And given how many times he's jumped hosts now, seems like a good future-proofing.) The actual script seems like it wasn't touched but the ending was new, and for some things, if he reviewed them 10 years ago, his opinion may have changed on them some over time
He's also slowing down on doing a new Trek video every week because after 10 years he's done 2/3 of the episodes and basically all the interesting ones and will run out eventually, so now he's doing 3 Trek videos a month plus a revisit, instead of 4 new one.
Still waiting for that Star Trek Into Darkness review
Star Trek went into darkness, then some talentless idiots created STD and it never came out again. It's gone.
He's doing it some time this year
IRONMANAustralia STD(how I didn't think of that myself is beyond me) really screwed up by trying to make the Klingons as different from humans as they possibility could. The entire reason the Romulans/Vulcans, Klingons, and Humans look similar is because we all shall a common ancestor and to make them look so different hurts that... They also look really stupid. Like, I'm watching that an like "I'm hearing Klingon & I see Klingon weapons, but I see no Klingons"
Chuck has said both Darkness and Beyond will be getting reviews this year.
Huh, this is interesting. Trying out a new review format to make it YT-friendly because YT is unfriendly? Good idea, especially for those who for various reasons can't watch Vimeo.
I will admit to a slight disappointment though that this is what ends the 10th anniversary celebration, even if your review of Discovery's Context is for Kings was great. With that whole theme of regrets and moving forward, plus having reviewed one episode from each of the previous shows alongside welcoming the new one with three reviews, I was half-expecting the 10th review to be the long-awaited look at Into Darkness.
Ah well, this was still good. Into Darkness (and Beyond) will have its time on the show eventually.
CHuck has said Darkness and Beyond are both on the schedule for this year.
only sfdebris could have a "Mini-Review" thats 2 parts long
welp, now we know why it was ok to form an alliance with the Borg. they are a creation of Section 31 after all...
Its only logical that you upload more on UA-cam to draw in new viewers. I do prefer the version on your site mostly because the jokes work better there but you'll probably improve you when you do these more frequently.
Hentay?
Was waiting for "I'm afraid" and Janeway's "I know." Disappointed...
helping the borg in this story was illogical and idioctic. you have no way of knowing that species 8472 will attack the federation and if they do you have a weapon to defend yourself, where as the borg will continue to adapt to your weapons and will clearly turn against you, due to their need to assimilate (the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend, especially after the enemy is defeated, plus species 8472 isn't your enemy in the first place). so logically the only approach is to use the distraction of a losing war to travel through borg space and in the process leave your greatest enermy, who can't be negotiated with, to be destoryed.
They straight up say they want to elimate all life in the galaxy and have the means to do so. Its a choice between a slowly expanding cancer and an omnicidal race.
Voyager was my least favorite I don't know why I guess Janway and all the chances she had to being her crew home is crazy and she took none of them
Fuck being cautious with the content. Nobody else cares and gets away with it...
So YouTbe is assimilating you SF!?
This sucks.