I suspect if Kes had remained along with Seven, they might have established a sister type relationship, with Kes being the older sister. A significant difference from Janeway and Seven's relationship of mother and daughter as well as mentor and pupil. Different also from Belana's and Seven's adversarial relationship. Both Kes and Seven possessed that child-like quality of wonder in discovery, learning, and exploring, that I think would have bonded them together, and brought a greater potential for both characters to grow, and mature emotionally for Seven and Kes equally. Both were outsiders brought into the Voyage fold and family and they also had this in common to connect to each other. Who knows what modified Borg nano-probes could have done to extend Kes' life span? Unfortunately we never got the chance to explore those story lines. It would have been fun to see an episode of an away mission where all the female characters were on the Delta Flyer. Janeway, Belana, Kes, Seven, and Ensign Wildman. Showing that professional and dedicated women to their jobs, do not become "Catty" when under stress, but pull together like any community or family when push cover to shove, even when there is some friction between some of the characters.
While I feel you have a point about some of the simulates between Kes and Seven. I don't think that one should consider them sisters. While seven was fully capable of warmth. ( see her relation ship with Naomi, ONE and the other Borg children) she was a bit willing to fall aback into her Borg shell and could be see as cold. Where Kes was almost always sunny and pleasant. Or at least seemed to be that Way though. Episodes such as cold fury and war Lord showed that she did have a darker side. Though I feel that Kes should have stayed around at lest to the end of season four. And that if not have the big sister little sister relationship you discriped. I do think they could have become friends much like seven and Be'lanna did....eventually. Also I love the idea of all the main lady's stuck in a shuttle together. That would make for a great episode
Yes the sister type relation ship would have had to develop over the next 4 seasons, not happen right awway, and yes like Belanna and Seven eventually got to respect each other as people if not care for one another, they had a more professional air between them. Kes and Seven could have developed more of a familial relationship between them given a season or two to start and mature their interactions.
It would have been wonderful to have Kes and Seven become family, and you could even have Seven struggle with Kes' limited lifespan and potential acceptance of her upcoming death.
"While you could have replaced Harry with just about anything". Janeway: "Crew - this is Ensign Brick. He is a brick. He'll take Harry's station. Welcome, Ensign Brick. Ah, you know what, I like you - you deserve a promotion. Lt. Brick - on your station!"
Janeway: "Harry you will be working for Lt. Brick. Follow his orders." Harry: "He doesn't say anything." Janeway: "You fail him just like you fail me."
One of the most disappointing aspects of Kes' departure was there could have been an interesting dynamic of her and Seven with the former as a formerly sheltered Ocompa embracing the freer life on Voyager vs. the latter as a former Borg drone reluctantly exploring her individuality as a member of Starfleet. There could have also be an exploration of Kes' involvement with helping her and the Doctor socialize as people, with perhaps conflict coming from how the he and Kes differ on to best mentor Seven in that role Not to mention the potential of how the she and the crew respond when she's getting closer to the end of her lifespan with maybe a story of Seven advocating the use of something like Borg technology to prolong her life. The pieces for some really solid episodes would be there, but we never got the chance to see it.
I didn’t like Kes at all either, in my opinion she was just as bad as Neelix. Everything about her character was so implausible, from the nine year life span to the utter absurdity of a pregnancy and birth happening out of a woman’s back (how does pregnancy even occur? How does the baby get out? How does a pregnant woman walk’ around like that), so stupid.
Kes really does represent the Voyager's overall wasted potential to me. They could have done so many things with her, instead they decided to do nothing with her. Yeah she had jobs, her relationships with Neelix and the rest of the crew, and they tired to give her powers. But overall she just didn't accomplish much of anything because the writing staff didn't have anything for her to actually do. She just felt static and flat as a result; and in the end she just became another deus ex machima to get Voyager out of Borg space. Followed by one final episode where she was basically the villain who just decided to give up before doing anything. The same thing happened with Seven, yeah she had better material to work with and there were good episodes. But good lord did they just keep rehashing them over and over again until it got tiring. But then again aside from Janeway, Seven, and the Doctor, I really don't think the writing staff cared that strongly about any of the cast of characters.
nunouno001 You failed to mention that she is a made up character and at age 2 she is a senior hence 9 years old for the character is the same as being 90 for the human kind. Dominatrix serve the customer's desires but 7 had no interest in men but it was the Doctor that taught her how to date and interact nicely with others. She is part BORG > another made up character. THE QUEEN is a different story though lol she pinned Data down and forced feelings on him that he never felt before.
Unlike DS9, Voyager had a huge problem in developing characters that were not Janeway, Doctor and Seven of Nine later on in the series. Harry, Neelix, and Chakotay were all pushed into the background and left to wither on the vine.
I loved Kes. I thought she was the sweetest, kindest person in any Star Trek series. The kind of person who should serve as an example to everyone regarding how to act toward others. I was very sad to see her go. By the time she came around again she'd completely lost her way, and the whole story arc with Janeway reminding her how to act was... stupid. But the message of that episode was good; to stay true to who you are, and never give up the best parts of yourself.
As much as I'm not in the camp that mocks Harry at every turn, I do wonder what we would have gotten if Harry had died and Kes found herself replacing him on the Bridge and coupled with Seven's introduction. Her abilities could have been what was used to stop Seven from assimilating voyager instead of Chakotay, how Seven would resent her for severing her link to the collective but eventually developing mutual respect the same way she would with Torres. Kes and the other regulars could have replaced Harry in later episodes that he was the center of and we could have seen how they'd be in those situations. I could see Seven being the one in Timeless who made a mistake that got voyager destroyed (something her Borg ignorance would have caused as it made her too confident) and years later as a different person, prepared to do whatever it took to change the past and save them all. I can see Kes as the one the Doctor chooses to save when he had to let one of two equal chance patients die because of his bond with her. Really could have been a very different series.
There's just such a lack of imagination with Kes. They established that she had photographic memory and powerful telepathic abilities. She could have been contributed to the crew much like Seven did in the later seasons. Kes could have done so much to help Voyager with her abilities similar to how Seven was able to aid Voyager with her Borg knowledge and technology. Like when the Kazons took over the ship and stranded them on that hostile planet without their technology. Kes could have helped a lot there, using her telepathic powers to keep track of the crew and maintain contact, sense alien lifeforms to keep the crew safe, and communicate with the aliens they met on the planet. That could have been a huge character development arc for her with her coming into her own and realizing how much potential she really has but also having to deal with the stress of so much more responsibility.
In my opinion Seven became the new "Wesley Crusher, the boy wonder", in that she was the one who ended up saving the ship miraculously over and over again.
Imagine how great would it have been to explore her mental powers along with her personality or giving birth to a bunch of little Keses and then ageing towards the end of the series possibly even a powerful being becoming senile.
I always hated Kes when I watched Voyager as a kid, but as an adult going back and watching Voyager many times, I've really come to appreciate her character. Shame they had to let her go, but as I understand it, Jennifer Lien was beset by mental health issues and drug addiction, and wasn't able to keep performing the role.
I really liked Kes and felt that the writers just never quite got how to write her. But at least they gave her a great send off. Then they blew that out of the water with a story that didn't fit the larger story, the character, or even logic. That's _Voyager_ in a nutshell.
Jennifer Lien Wanted to leave... From what I had read she found the Trek universe and all its attendant attention to be more than she felt comfortable with
Trying to find the scene where Kess is in deep meditation trying to unify with the flame of a candle and actually accomplishes it temporarily? Tuvok is nearby. Thought this was a memorable, intriguing scene and I would love to find it again.
Grace Whitney from the original Star Trek had a drug and alcohol problem was why she was removed from show. Think things in her personal life was also reason character of Kes was removed from show not so much the character she played. Reports later she had gotten in trouble with the law might have had drug or alcohol problem although can't be sure several of her friends had died from drug abuse according to Wikipedia article about her.
Yes I think she is one of the character that never did get build up as a desirable. If the writing team gave the character a more interesting personality. She had some very good episode and could have been more.
Nice. It would be great if character arch and whom is assigned the role of permanent cast member were determined more by the balance of the story and very little by how many actors can be paid.
Imagine being a young actor, landing a role on star trek. You get the part of a newly thought of alien. With psychic abilities, a unique biology and a short lifespan. That sounds really cool! Something to really sink your teeth in as an actor. And then you just get to play a side character with boring stories. Shame on the writers and producers. So much more and better could have been done with her character. I would have loved to see Kes live just long enough to help Voyager get back home. Kes was not the only character that got the short end of the stick though. B´Ellana, Tom, Harry and Chakotay didn´t get many interesting stories either IMO. Most of the time they were ´just there´.
What was it the the Voyager writers? They invent characters - then can't think of anything to do with them. Kes, Harry, Chakotay - all empty spaces. Tuvok, Janeway - wildly inconsistent. Then they finally come up with something for Kes to do, and the result is ... "Fury".
I would really like if you covered seven of nine in a possible future video of this series. ( I would also like it if you didn't have a dig at her and Chakotay's unexpected romance. In that possible video) but I shant hold my breath
One of the problems with Voyager is that the show had too many characters at any given time. It was never possible to focus on them all, so some of them always ended up as background furniture.
Kes is Jean Grey and River Tam. It's a shame the showrunners and the writers didn't know what to do with the character. Maybe it was for the best Kes left the show because it made the way for Sexy of Nine (Seven of Nine). If Kes hadn't left and if they still brought Seven of Nine into the show, there could had been a real friendship between Kes and Seven of Nine. I was doing voluntary work today collecting people's rubbish and I thought who could play an alternate timeline version of Kes and only one name came to mind... 6:28 Natalie Dormer. Jennifer Lien played Kes to the best of her abilities and it's a shame Kes didn't get to further develop as a character and the showrunners and the writers couldn't do more with the character.
Kes and her powers could have been an excellent asset post-Scorpion, but I've watched a lot of Babylon 5 over the years so as much as I'd love to see her go all Vorlon on say Neelix, I doubt anything ideal would have gone with it. Trek's main psycik characters (Spock, Tuvok, and Troi), do use mild telepathy and such, nothing like full-blown telekinesis, or really explored what could be done with such abilities as I remember (again, I've watched B5 and even the occasional comments that the likes of Bester or Lyta make showcase just how scary they can be). Kes in the episode with the telepathic race that has a black market in violent memories could have been extremely dark if they used her in it. As an aside, I know there was thoughts of getting rid of Harry, but what about Neelix? I know SFDebris (and myself) find him insuffrable, but how was he seen by the viewers in general? Personally I'd have sacrificed him to the Borg and have them at least for a time have the conpulsion to put horrific textile patterns on their body suits.
Telepathy is about minds connecting reading and communicating or sometimes controlling minds which is different than telekinesis which is moving objects with the mind.
It Came Down To Keep The Beautiful Lady Or Keep The Grown Dumpster Baby, And They Chose Dumpster Baby, I Think I Should Slow Clap That Kinda Ludicrous Decision Making. ....👏....👏....👏....👏....👏....👏....👏
When you think about it, the Ocampa might be Star Trek's most ridiculous species. Forget about the 9 year lifespan. The females can only give birth a grand total of 1 time... which means the entire population reduces by at least half, every generation. Even if the males could give birth too (which was never suggested, but never definitively ruled out), the species would still be doomed, just at a slower rate. Every time one of them died before reproducing or just decided not to (which apparently _was_ an option, according to Kes), the population would wither away. It makes no sense. They seem to be designed by nature to fail. They could've never even evolved to the state we meet them at, with those reproductive limitations. Plus there's the ridiculous logistics of them giving birth through their lower backs(?!) while standing up. The spine doesn't get in the way of that? None of the vertebrae? And what happens when there's nobody there to catch? Somehow this Darwinian catch-22 just never occurred to the writers.
I always thought that might have been part of the caretaker's doing. That in trying to fix the first problem, his kind might have tried to genetically modify the Ocampa to survive their new planet and it horribly backfired. (Sort of like SF Debris theory about the Breen). The result was their incredibly short life span and such. They had lived enough generations that the Ocampa had adjusted.
zardox78 I so completely agree with you. The absurdity of these women supposedly giving birth out of their backs was too much for me. I never heard anything so ridiculous. How does pregnancy even occur?
I think Sfdebris once suggested the possibility that the Oocampa had been genetically engineered to be a race of sex slaves, and that perhaps the Caretaker had rescued them from their degenerate creators.
The reason they didn't get rid of Garret Wang instead makes me so angry. Yes, handicap your show with an actor because he was in a glorified poll in Peoples magazine. Great idea.
y y It wasn’t his fault that his character was written so wooden and emotionless. His character became a running joke of how was he going to get hurt this week.
What a lovely summary of her, a character that I always felt got shortchanged by the proclivities of the powers that be, whom tossed her out like so much frumpy trash - to be replaced by a hotter, sexier model ; Seven whom someone like Trump would classify as a perfect 👌 "Ten" whilst Kes, he might ironically rate a "Seven". I always thought this choice beneath the ideals of Star Trek, which is supposed to be about something deeper than throwing out one "okay-lookin' chick" for a "bona-fide Betty". And if I am wrong about it being some sordid sexpot competition by the executives @ helm for Voyager, then why not just keep both? (or am I really supposed to believe that it's logical for a practical, efficient Borg woman with no initial interest in fraternizing with the crew to walk around in 6 inch stiletto 👠's? Is this really the most efficient way to get a work shift done?? Or does no one in the 24th century know improperly supporting shoes are bad for your back? 👟🤓!) 😜 😳
Characters that have god like potential aren't likely to stick around unless they want to play with the crew as toys the way Q does. Once you open the door to their potential they become the solution to every problem and the story would end up revolving around them. Every truly super human character I can think of on TNG disappeared pretty quick or lost their abilities.
I almost feel like Kess abilities is what got her kicked off the series because she could pretty much just do anything she was almost a que she was basically almost a q
I felt bad for the actress. She was given almost nothing for her character other than be a nurse and have telepathic powers when the plot demands it. Her “romance” with Neelix was poorly written and was better when it was completely dropped.
If she was meant to be eye-candy, they failed miserably with that awful wig! Jeri Ryan was certainly made to look a lot more sexy, the trouble is she was a married woman, so they shouldn't have been doing that to her!
colin Paterson Not to insult the actress but Kes was never eye candy between the awful wig and ridiculous clothes they had her wear. They only let her look attractive before she left.
Voyager Crew IS by far the least interesting to me, and kes IS the perfect embodiment of that. I was surprised to feel myself almost relieved when she's been written off the show.
7/9 was a thousand times more dynamic a character. Sorry but Kes was a was a warm fluffy snoozefest. Thank God they at least axed that bird's nest wig from her early episodes. Frankly that character made me think Ocampans lived far too long.
Kes was meh. Her voice was alright but it always sounded like it was a voice over and not actually coming from her mouth. If you want to think of how meh Kes was, imagine all the great 7 of 9 episodes and imagine them instead about Kes and looking for some caretaker or a way to live past 9 years old and how likely you would be to hit next on the playback.
The writers did some really stupid things with this character. For instance, the Ocampa women give birth out of their BACKS??? That's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
S1nwar the Kazon didn’t help either. It’s like they had a great premise, a lone starship on the other side of the galaxy, any help almost a century away at max warp, with completely new species, planets and weird space stuff to explore, and then phoned it in with a handful of poorly designed aliens, characters and plot lines until years into the run, and then after a promising start with the borg the writers went right back to being super safe and lazy.
Yeah, the Okampas were actually MORE boring than the Bajorans! (Quite an achievement.) Though thankfully, the Okampas turned out to be the equivalent of Betazoids - just a minor background race you never see. The trouble with the Kazons is that they were simply inferior to the Klingons, Cardassians, and Jem'Hadar. Not as threatening. Not as interesting. I had no respect for them.
After watching through the full series I've gotta disagree, Kes was DULL. Sure she had potential that was truely wasted, but she was yet another telepath in a show that was all too egar to just give any telepath superpowers on a whim. Kes' overly soft breathy voice actively dragged the show back the more she was there and the show was better for it when she was gone, even Neelix had a marked improvement in the show and Chuck knows it (even if he won't admit it), you watch any stupid neelix moment after kes leaves and it's usually something pety like "neelix said well done to the main character of the episode" or "neelix was in shot". The ONLY problem that came with Kes leaving was the 5 season long joke of Tom Paris having to spend equal time on the bridge and in sick bay. Which could easily have been fixed with a new alien character that was mute. give them an episode, let them join the crew, never pay for a speaking role.
Kes was a lame and super boring character - yikes. Some of Kes centric episodes are a tough pill to swallow. It was the right decision to write her character out.
Worst character after Seska. Dull and basically Wesley Crusher with deus ex psychic powers. Was so glad she left the shown for Seven, who is a better character in literally all aspects. The episode where Kes was possessed by a warlord was nothing but cringe.
The drugs and alcohol part is true at least, she's been arrested a few times, but I've heard nothing about her coming out as a transman, which, if true, would not be a shame at all. What would be a shame is if she (or he, as the case would be, I respect people's pronouns because it is so easy that anyone who isn't a hack Canadian professor can do it) weren't in a position to be allowed to live their truth.
jebes909090 And because you are a professional psychiatrist with decades in the field, having met hundreds of transsexuals, we shall of course defer to your judgement. Or, more likely, you’re passing on hearsay and don’t have a blessed clue what you’re talking about. It’s rather like a fisherman trying to criticise NASA’s landers on Mars. Judging from a position of ignorance is not something to be respected. Transsexuality is a complex thing that touches many people in different ways, but it is no more a “psychosis” than homosexuality.
except homosexuals dont want to mutilate thier perfectly fine bodies. I guess we should differ to you dr. griffin for your years of work with transexuals and hundreds of patients. Just remember that you aren't doing them any good by saying they are right. would you tell a depressed person that they are totally alright cutting themselves because its what they feel they should do?
Good video, but I never liked Kes. As for her being a "secondary" background character. Well, yes - that's the natural role of women, to help out and look pretty while the men lead and drive the drama. I liked Janeway (liked Torres even more), but female leadership is a novelty, not the norm, and the show would never have worked without a predominantly male cast.
I suspect if Kes had remained along with Seven, they might have established a sister type relationship, with Kes being the older sister. A significant difference from Janeway and Seven's relationship of mother and daughter as well as mentor and pupil. Different also from Belana's and Seven's adversarial relationship. Both Kes and Seven possessed that child-like quality of wonder in discovery, learning, and exploring, that I think would have bonded them together, and brought a greater potential for both characters to grow, and mature emotionally for Seven and Kes equally. Both were outsiders brought into the Voyage fold and family and they also had this in common to connect to each other. Who knows what modified Borg nano-probes could have done to extend Kes' life span? Unfortunately we never got the chance to explore those story lines. It would have been fun to see an episode of an away mission where all the female characters were on the Delta Flyer. Janeway, Belana, Kes, Seven, and Ensign Wildman. Showing that professional and dedicated women to their jobs, do not become "Catty" when under stress, but pull together like any community or family when push cover to shove, even when there is some friction between some of the characters.
I'm depressed after reading your comment... Because that would have been the best thing ever.
Why did they keep Neelix?!
While I feel you have a point about some of the simulates between Kes and Seven. I don't think that one should consider them sisters. While seven was fully capable of warmth. ( see her relation ship with Naomi, ONE and the other Borg children) she was a bit willing to fall aback into her Borg shell and could be see as cold. Where Kes was almost always sunny and pleasant. Or at least seemed to be that Way though. Episodes such as cold fury and war Lord showed that she did have a darker side. Though I feel that Kes should have stayed around at lest to the end of season four. And that if not have the big sister little sister relationship you discriped. I do think they could have become friends much like seven and Be'lanna did....eventually.
Also I love the idea of all the main lady's stuck in a shuttle together. That would make for a great episode
Yes the sister type relation ship would have had to develop over the next 4 seasons, not happen right awway, and yes like Belanna and Seven eventually got to respect each other as people if not care for one another, they had a more professional air between them. Kes and Seven could have developed more of a familial relationship between them given a season or two to start and mature their interactions.
It would have been wonderful to have Kes and Seven become family, and you could even have Seven struggle with Kes' limited lifespan and potential acceptance of her upcoming death.
@strontiumXnitrate Well sure, if you absolutely must have chauvinism, it should at least be BENEVOLENT!
Kes had the voice. THAT voice. One of the best female voices I have ever heard.
Indeed. And articulation. Warmth and gentleness.
She makes early VOY bearable for me.
Neelix’s little furballs really appreciated her voice
"While you could have replaced Harry with just about anything".
Janeway: "Crew - this is Ensign Brick. He is a brick. He'll take Harry's station. Welcome, Ensign Brick. Ah, you know what, I like you - you deserve a promotion. Lt. Brick - on your station!"
Janeway: "Harry you will be working for Lt. Brick. Follow his orders."
Harry: "He doesn't say anything."
Janeway: "You fail him just like you fail me."
Lt.Brick.. Voyager's new break out character!
Most notably that time the Lt. when though a window
@@OtakuboyT Time? Don't you mean times?
How come I feel like if Voyager was a family sitcom, poor Harry Kim would have been living under the stairs?
One of the most disappointing aspects of Kes' departure was there could have been an interesting dynamic of her and Seven with the former as a formerly sheltered Ocompa embracing the freer life on Voyager vs. the latter as a former Borg drone reluctantly exploring her individuality as a member of Starfleet. There could have also be an exploration of Kes' involvement with helping her and the Doctor socialize as people, with perhaps conflict coming from how the he and Kes differ on to best mentor Seven in that role
Not to mention the potential of how the she and the crew respond when she's getting closer to the end of her lifespan with maybe a story of Seven advocating the use of something like Borg technology to prolong her life. The pieces for some really solid episodes would be there, but we never got the chance to see it.
Think about how wonderful Voyager would have been if they had gotten rid of Neelix and kept Kes....
Maybe the actress wouldn't have gone crazy.
The actor who played Neelix was Ethan Phillips and he was on Benson. You cannot have a post-TNG spin-off without an actor from Benson.
I didn’t like Kes at all either, in my opinion she was just as bad as Neelix. Everything about her character was so implausible, from the nine year life span to the utter absurdity of a pregnancy and birth happening out of a woman’s back (how does pregnancy even occur? How does the baby get out? How does a pregnant woman walk’ around like that), so stupid.
@@8698gil Also, she said that they only have one chance of getting pregnant. How do you propagate a species like that?
@@Marchant2 Exactly. It was the stupidest alien species ever invented.
Kes really does represent the Voyager's overall wasted potential to me. They could have done so many things with her, instead they decided to do nothing with her. Yeah she had jobs, her relationships with Neelix and the rest of the crew, and they tired to give her powers. But overall she just didn't accomplish much of anything because the writing staff didn't have anything for her to actually do. She just felt static and flat as a result; and in the end she just became another deus ex machima to get Voyager out of Borg space. Followed by one final episode where she was basically the villain who just decided to give up before doing anything.
The same thing happened with Seven, yeah she had better material to work with and there were good episodes. But good lord did they just keep rehashing them over and over again until it got tiring. But then again aside from Janeway, Seven, and the Doctor, I really don't think the writing staff cared that strongly about any of the cast of characters.
nunouno001 You failed to mention that she is a made up character and at age 2 she is a senior hence 9 years old for the character is the same as being 90 for the human kind. Dominatrix serve the customer's desires but 7 had no interest in men but it was the Doctor that taught her how to date and interact nicely with others. She is part BORG > another made up character. THE QUEEN is a different story though lol she pinned Data down and forced feelings on him that he never felt before.
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Kes was such a beautiful character. I do not understand why the writers gave her and her people such short lifespans.
Unlike DS9, Voyager had a huge problem in developing characters that were not Janeway, Doctor and Seven of Nine later on in the series. Harry, Neelix, and Chakotay were all pushed into the background and left to wither on the vine.
I loved Kes. I thought she was the sweetest, kindest person in any Star Trek series. The kind of person who should serve as an example to everyone regarding how to act toward others. I was very sad to see her go. By the time she came around again she'd completely lost her way, and the whole story arc with Janeway reminding her how to act was... stupid. But the message of that episode was good; to stay true to who you are, and never give up the best parts of yourself.
I now wonder if Kes ended up as a Traveller, and bums around the space-time continuum with Wesley.
As much as I'm not in the camp that mocks Harry at every turn, I do wonder what we would have gotten if Harry had died and Kes found herself replacing him on the Bridge and coupled with Seven's introduction. Her abilities could have been what was used to stop Seven from assimilating voyager instead of Chakotay, how Seven would resent her for severing her link to the collective but eventually developing mutual respect the same way she would with Torres. Kes and the other regulars could have replaced Harry in later episodes that he was the center of and we could have seen how they'd be in those situations. I could see Seven being the one in Timeless who made a mistake that got voyager destroyed (something her Borg ignorance would have caused as it made her too confident) and years later as a different person, prepared to do whatever it took to change the past and save them all. I can see Kes as the one the Doctor chooses to save when he had to let one of two equal chance patients die because of his bond with her. Really could have been a very different series.
That’s have been awesome!
Kes was a great character she shouldn't have had to leave. I would like to seen her and seven as either friends or rivals.
Good to see all the character looks back up. Hope the throat & voice are doin' well. Lookin' forward to more Kino's Journey. ^_^ \m/
There's just such a lack of imagination with Kes. They established that she had photographic memory and powerful telepathic abilities. She could have been contributed to the crew much like Seven did in the later seasons. Kes could have done so much to help Voyager with her abilities similar to how Seven was able to aid Voyager with her Borg knowledge and technology.
Like when the Kazons took over the ship and stranded them on that hostile planet without their technology. Kes could have helped a lot there, using her telepathic powers to keep track of the crew and maintain contact, sense alien lifeforms to keep the crew safe, and communicate with the aliens they met on the planet. That could have been a huge character development arc for her with her coming into her own and realizing how much potential she really has but also having to deal with the stress of so much more responsibility.
In my opinion Seven became the new "Wesley Crusher, the boy wonder", in that she was the one who ended up saving the ship miraculously over and over again.
Imagine how great would it have been to explore her mental powers along with her personality or giving birth to a bunch of little Keses and then ageing towards the end of the series possibly even a powerful being becoming senile.
I always hated Kes when I watched Voyager as a kid, but as an adult going back and watching Voyager many times, I've really come to appreciate her character. Shame they had to let her go, but as I understand it, Jennifer Lien was beset by mental health issues and drug addiction, and wasn't able to keep performing the role.
I really liked Kes and felt that the writers just never quite got how to write her. But at least they gave her a great send off.
Then they blew that out of the water with a story that didn't fit the larger story, the character, or even logic. That's _Voyager_ in a nutshell.
She was beautiful with a gorgeous smile
Jennifer Lien Wanted to leave... From what I had read she found the Trek universe and all its attendant attention to be more than she felt comfortable with
She was battling depression and was arrested for indecent exposure in 2015
she was beautiful back in the day. just saw her mugshot.
I still can't believe they got rid of Kes for Double DDs of Nine.
only could go so far with character
@@sausage6984 Season 3 showed there was potential for her character to continue on that's why I said that.
Trying to find the scene where Kess is in deep meditation trying to unify with the flame of a candle and actually accomplishes it temporarily? Tuvok is nearby. Thought this was a memorable, intriguing scene and I would love to find it again.
Grace Whitney from the original Star Trek had a drug and alcohol problem was why she was removed from show. Think things in her personal life was also reason character of Kes was removed from show not so much the character she played. Reports later she had gotten in trouble with the law might have had drug or alcohol problem although can't be sure several of her friends had died from drug abuse according to Wikipedia article about her.
I like Kes. It’s a shame what happened to her not only in this series but also in her life.
What happened to her life?
@@Evenflow-cf2fs drink, drugs and criminal shenanigans if I recall correctly. I'm just about to look it up.
@Eobard Thawne I wish I was one of those lucky kids
@@sausage6984 Also she had a horrible childhood
Chuck, I didn't think you could post on UA-cam.
Yes I think she is one of the character that never did get build up as a desirable. If the writing team gave the character a more interesting personality. She had some very good episode and could have been more.
Nice. It would be great if character arch and whom is assigned the role of permanent cast member were determined more by the balance of the story and very little by how many actors can be paid.
Imagine being a young actor, landing a role on star trek. You get the part of a newly thought of alien. With psychic abilities, a unique biology and a short lifespan. That sounds really cool! Something to really sink your teeth in as an actor. And then you just get to play a side character with boring stories. Shame on the writers and producers. So much more and better could have been done with her character. I would have loved to see Kes live just long enough to help Voyager get back home.
Kes was not the only character that got the short end of the stick though. B´Ellana, Tom, Harry and Chakotay didn´t get many interesting stories either IMO. Most of the time they were ´just there´.
Good run down as usual , it's really sad what going on with Jennifer Lien in her lif right now
Really after all this time no A Look at KIRA
What was it the the Voyager writers? They invent characters - then can't think of anything to do with them. Kes, Harry, Chakotay - all empty spaces. Tuvok, Janeway - wildly inconsistent.
Then they finally come up with something for Kes to do, and the result is ... "Fury".
I would really like if you covered seven of nine in a possible future video of this series. ( I would also like it if you didn't have a dig at her and Chakotay's unexpected romance. In that possible video) but I shant hold my breath
One of the problems with Voyager is that the show had too many characters at any given time. It was never possible to focus on them all, so some of them always ended up as background furniture.
Also she donated a lung to Neelix
I always wondered about that. Wouldn't her lung be useless in 9 years?
Kes is Jean Grey and River Tam. It's a shame the showrunners and the writers didn't know what to do with the character. Maybe it was for the best Kes left the show because it made the way for Sexy of Nine (Seven of Nine). If Kes hadn't left and if they still brought Seven of Nine into the show, there could had been a real friendship between Kes and Seven of Nine. I was doing voluntary work today collecting people's rubbish and I thought who could play an alternate timeline version of Kes and only one name came to mind... 6:28 Natalie Dormer. Jennifer Lien played Kes to the best of her abilities and it's a shame Kes didn't get to further develop as a character and the showrunners and the writers couldn't do more with the character.
So...how many of you would burn as many orphanages as you could find for a shot at getting Kes her own show?
Why encourage Horrible behavior in people?
Did Kes turn into a Q?
Kes and her powers could have been an excellent asset post-Scorpion, but I've watched a lot of Babylon 5 over the years so as much as I'd love to see her go all Vorlon on say Neelix, I doubt anything ideal would have gone with it. Trek's main psycik characters (Spock, Tuvok, and Troi), do use mild telepathy and such, nothing like full-blown telekinesis, or really explored what could be done with such abilities as I remember (again, I've watched B5 and even the occasional comments that the likes of Bester or Lyta make showcase just how scary they can be). Kes in the episode with the telepathic race that has a black market in violent memories could have been extremely dark if they used her in it.
As an aside, I know there was thoughts of getting rid of Harry, but what about Neelix? I know SFDebris (and myself) find him insuffrable, but how was he seen by the viewers in general? Personally I'd have sacrificed him to the Borg and have them at least for a time have the conpulsion to put horrific textile patterns on their body suits.
Telepathy is about minds connecting reading and communicating or sometimes controlling minds which is different than telekinesis which is moving objects with the mind.
I agree Neelix death now that could have been something. After a point Neelix didn't add much other then being a baby sitter.
You meant, "Small Wessels".
You? Saying something positive? About Voyager? Who are you and what have you done with SF?
Maybe Nelix could have tripled teamed with Kes and Seven
Tom Tom that would have only worked with Tuvix and his two...torpedo launchers. Theoretically.
That would have made Kes fairly uncomfortable if Seven gave Nelix the brush off
It Came Down To Keep The Beautiful Lady Or Keep The Grown Dumpster Baby, And They Chose Dumpster Baby, I Think I Should Slow Clap That Kinda Ludicrous Decision Making.
....👏....👏....👏....👏....👏....👏....👏
When you think about it, the Ocampa might be Star Trek's most ridiculous species.
Forget about the 9 year lifespan. The females can only give birth a grand total of 1 time... which means the entire population reduces by at least half, every generation. Even if the males could give birth too (which was never suggested, but never definitively ruled out), the species would still be doomed, just at a slower rate. Every time one of them died before reproducing or just decided not to (which apparently _was_ an option, according to Kes), the population would wither away.
It makes no sense. They seem to be designed by nature to fail. They could've never even evolved to the state we meet them at, with those reproductive limitations. Plus there's the ridiculous logistics of them giving birth through their lower backs(?!) while standing up. The spine doesn't get in the way of that? None of the vertebrae? And what happens when there's nobody there to catch? Somehow this Darwinian catch-22 just never occurred to the writers.
I always thought that might have been part of the caretaker's doing. That in trying to fix the first problem, his kind might have tried to genetically modify the Ocampa to survive their new planet and it horribly backfired. (Sort of like SF Debris theory about the Breen). The result was their incredibly short life span and such. They had lived enough generations that the Ocampa had adjusted.
Star Trek always had a lot of nonsense, but Voyager was totally shameless about it.
zardox78 I so completely agree with you. The absurdity of these women supposedly giving birth out of their backs was too much for me. I never heard anything so ridiculous. How does pregnancy even occur?
the 9 years was only about that planet.
I think Sfdebris once suggested the possibility that the Oocampa had been genetically engineered to be a race of sex slaves, and that perhaps the Caretaker had rescued them from their degenerate creators.
The reason they didn't get rid of Garret Wang instead makes me so angry. Yes, handicap your show with an actor because he was in a glorified poll in Peoples magazine. Great idea.
y y It wasn’t his fault that his character was written so wooden and emotionless. His character became a running joke of how was he going to get hurt this week.
I'll say it's a real shame about Jennifer Lien IRL
I kinda liked her, even though she's a pretty boring character sometimes.
What a lovely summary of her, a character that I always felt got shortchanged by the proclivities of the powers that be, whom tossed her out like so much frumpy trash - to be replaced by a hotter, sexier model ; Seven whom someone like Trump would classify as a perfect 👌 "Ten" whilst Kes, he might ironically rate a "Seven". I always thought this choice beneath the ideals of Star Trek, which is supposed to be about something deeper than throwing out one "okay-lookin' chick" for a "bona-fide Betty". And if I am wrong about it being some sordid sexpot competition by the executives @ helm for Voyager, then why not just keep both? (or am I really supposed to believe that it's logical for a practical, efficient Borg woman with no initial interest in fraternizing with the crew to walk around in 6 inch stiletto 👠's? Is this really the most efficient way to get a work shift done?? Or does no one in the 24th century know improperly supporting shoes are bad for your back? 👟🤓!) 😜 😳
I heard half the they let her go was she got caught smoking weed on set.
I'm wondering if art is imitating life with the Kes found on the planet to Kes' future self from "Fury". Maybe just a coincidence.
Characters that have god like potential aren't likely to stick around unless they want to play with the crew as toys the way Q does. Once you open the door to their potential they become the solution to every problem and the story would end up revolving around them. Every truly super human character I can think of on TNG disappeared pretty quick or lost their abilities.
I almost feel like Kess abilities is what got her kicked off the series because she could pretty much just do anything she was almost a que she was basically almost a q
They could just...not give her godlike powers.
I felt bad for the actress. She was given almost nothing for her character other than be a nurse and have telepathic powers when the plot demands it. Her “romance” with Neelix was poorly written and was better when it was completely dropped.
She was really there to be the eye candy and when itwas decided that they needed someone with a bit more
sex appeal wlcome Seven bye-bye Kes.
If she was meant to be eye-candy, they failed miserably with that awful wig! Jeri Ryan was certainly made to look a lot more sexy, the trouble is she was a married woman, so they shouldn't have been doing that to her!
colin Paterson Not to insult the actress but Kes was never eye candy between the awful wig and ridiculous clothes they had her wear. They only let her look attractive before she left.
I did not like that Kes, as far as we know, never saw Earth.
Voyager Crew IS by far the least interesting to me, and kes IS the perfect embodiment of that. I was surprised to feel myself almost relieved when she's been written off the show.
7/9 was a thousand times more dynamic a character. Sorry but Kes was a was a warm fluffy snoozefest. Thank God they at least axed that bird's nest wig from her early episodes. Frankly that character made me think Ocampans lived far too long.
Kes was meh. Her voice was alright but it always sounded like it was a voice over and not actually coming from her mouth. If you want to think of how meh Kes was, imagine all the great 7 of 9 episodes and imagine them instead about Kes and looking for some caretaker or a way to live past 9 years old and how likely you would be to hit next on the playback.
Kes and Neelix were incredibly pointless characters...
Was a bit weird. She was literally a child dating a space rodent.
The writers did some really stupid things with this character. For instance, the Ocampa women give birth out of their BACKS??? That's got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Never cared for her.
Kes was pointless. At anytime you could have remove her from the show and hardly anyone would have noticed.
the whole okampa arc was a pretty boring start for the series
S1nwar the Kazon didn’t help either. It’s like they had a great premise, a lone starship on the other side of the galaxy, any help almost a century away at max warp, with completely new species, planets and weird space stuff to explore, and then phoned it in with a handful of poorly designed aliens, characters and plot lines until years into the run, and then after a promising start with the borg the writers went right back to being super safe and lazy.
Yeah, the Okampas were actually MORE boring than the Bajorans! (Quite an achievement.) Though thankfully, the Okampas turned out to be the equivalent of Betazoids - just a minor background race you never see.
The trouble with the Kazons is that they were simply inferior to the Klingons, Cardassians, and Jem'Hadar. Not as threatening. Not as interesting. I had no respect for them.
Lee Bee the Kazon, the Rodney Dangerfield of aliens.
After watching through the full series I've gotta disagree, Kes was DULL. Sure she had potential that was truely wasted, but she was yet another telepath in a show that was all too egar to just give any telepath superpowers on a whim.
Kes' overly soft breathy voice actively dragged the show back the more she was there and the show was better for it when she was gone, even Neelix had a marked improvement in the show and Chuck knows it (even if he won't admit it), you watch any stupid neelix moment after kes leaves and it's usually something pety like "neelix said well done to the main character of the episode" or "neelix was in shot".
The ONLY problem that came with Kes leaving was the 5 season long joke of Tom Paris having to spend equal time on the bridge and in sick bay. Which could easily have been fixed with a new alien character that was mute. give them an episode, let them join the crew, never pay for a speaking role.
I really did not care one bit for Kes. I thought she was just, soo bad.
And this view has only gotten worse with the stuff the actress has done.
Kes likes to expose herself to children
That might happen when you date Neelix when you are five years old.
Kes was a lame and super boring character - yikes. Some of Kes centric episodes are a tough pill to swallow. It was the right decision to write her character out.
Worst character after Seska. Dull and basically Wesley Crusher with deus ex psychic powers. Was so glad she left the shown for Seven, who is a better character in literally all aspects. The episode where Kes was possessed by a warlord was nothing but cringe.
Kes was an empty meaningless character.
It's a shame the actor does drugs and sexually identifies as a boy
Even if that's true what does one have to do with the other?
The drugs and alcohol part is true at least, she's been arrested a few times, but I've heard nothing about her coming out as a transman, which, if true, would not be a shame at all. What would be a shame is if she (or he, as the case would be, I respect people's pronouns because it is so easy that anyone who isn't a hack Canadian professor can do it) weren't in a position to be allowed to live their truth.
The drugs may be a shame. Their sexual identity, wherever it is, certainly isn't.
jebes909090 And because you are a professional psychiatrist with decades in the field, having met hundreds of transsexuals, we shall of course defer to your judgement.
Or, more likely, you’re passing on hearsay and don’t have a blessed clue what you’re talking about. It’s rather like a fisherman trying to criticise NASA’s landers on Mars. Judging from a position of ignorance is not something to be respected. Transsexuality is a complex thing that touches many people in different ways, but it is no more a “psychosis” than homosexuality.
except homosexuals dont want to mutilate thier perfectly fine bodies. I guess we should differ to you dr. griffin for your years of work with transexuals and hundreds of patients.
Just remember that you aren't doing them any good by saying they are right. would you tell a depressed person that they are totally alright cutting themselves because its what they feel they should do?
Good video, but I never liked Kes. As for her being a "secondary" background character. Well, yes - that's the natural role of women, to help out and look pretty while the men lead and drive the drama. I liked Janeway (liked Torres even more), but female leadership is a novelty, not the norm, and the show would never have worked without a predominantly male cast.