We Need to Talk About This...
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- Опубліковано 10 бер 2023
- Not everyone back in medieval times was highly proficient in all kinds of fancy techniques, and on the battlefield there was likely at least some brute force involved... but applying the label "master of historical fencing" to a slugfest of the same downward chop over and over with zero defense? Ahem...
This is a pet peeve of mine. It's also why the stereotype of the lumbering brute with max armor but no skill is still around, even though we have plenty of sources to debunk that myth. We know a lot about medieval and renaissance martial arts, although there are also plenty of things we can't say for sure, especially when it comes to fighting on the battlefield.
The video I'm reacting to here:
“SAMURAI VS KNIGHT! Epic fight of master of historical fencing! Sword vs katana battle!” by MMA Global World
• SAMURAI VS KNIGHT! Epi...
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#skallagrim #swords #history - Розваги
Ah yes an masterfully done move in fencing the "Spamming the up attack in Mount and Blade" technique.
while walking back, so all enemies would strech in line in front of you. Also FOUR
LOL XD
It also works in Kingdom Come: Deliverance if you take the Headcracker perk. Although, there's a decent chance the opponent will parry and stab you in the eye.
at least in Mount and Blade it makes sense and is somewhat realistic
With a Swadian great-sword, while wearing no armor for speed, of course.
And this is why stamina as a mechanic is important in games. So, you can't just spam heavy attacks all day. Cheering all the enemies.
Mount and blade warband
Stamina?
@@TailcoatGames exactly my thoughts.
I swear to god, those hammer mains in deathmatches...
I only play the base game I don’t play multiplayer
@@pug-aloentertainment3801 mount and blade has multiplayer?
@@moosiemoose1337 yeah, since Warband
Just because you can afford the kit doesn't mean you know how to use it.
This fits so well considering the context and applied skill between the two in full sets of armor. The Samurai at least has some skill but the knight is less than a novice
@@marakalos3838Both are pretty much amateurs, but one is at least _trying_ some stuff while the other is just garbage. =__= Put a club in his hand, that will be more beneficial.
@@MrDibara You are quite right! He’s suited for a club, the knight. The samurai definitely needs more practice and maybe some lighter sparring
And most of the equipment you see in these events is shit-tier in quality and fit because it costs an obscene amount of money to buy a properly fitting, properly made plate harness
This has been true for all of history. If you don't train & practice it doesn't matter how good your equipment is. 🤙
He's a master of medieval fencing, he sells excellent hazel hurdle panels and he uses the profits to buy suits of armour and play whack-a-samurai
I prefer more modern fencing styles and techniques, myself. For example, I'm highly experienced in the art of chippendale... if you know what I mean.
Ha
He even looks like he's trying to hammer a fence pole in to the ground
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA😂 I laughed so hard at this)
Ah yes the art of the good old In and out
My Polish hearth always gets so warm when people mention our noble national sport of "beating the shit out of opponent with stick"
Love from Kalisz
You may like the game hellish quart
It's a time-honored tradition 🙏
It's a tradition that's still alive and well in some communities
Is there a name for this sport?
@@MrByakkoneko Palcaty
as a chiv 2 player who spams heavy overheads, i approve of his master technique. fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 moves - fear the man who has practiced 1 move 10,000 times.
As a Chivalry 2 player who dies to easily telegraphed and repeated spams, I fear this master swordsman
I do not fear the man who has been heavy attacked 1000 times
By the second overhead swing I would have stomped on the side of his knee or possibly just locked blades and given him a hip throw. I don't know what the rules are for these wannabe tough guys, but fighting for real has no rules. Stupidity should be punished with knee damage and concussions.
If that’s the Master of Historical Fencing, then I hate to see what the Novice version is.
If that's what a master looks like then I must be a god of fencing 🤣
Actually I want to see that.
Novice Fencing is where you hit yourself with the sword. Mastery is learning you're supposed to bonk the other guy.
@@inurokuwarz that's way to complicated :(
@@inurokuwarz Ahhh yes, the first and last rule of sword fighting. Stick um with the pointy end.
That's a master of fencing...for Morrowind. He's not whiffing his attacks, so his Long Blade skill must be pretty high.
It's not Morrowind Martial Arts unless you shout "You N'Wah!" at the start of the match, otherwise it's just sparkling frustration.
@@jimbob3332 youuu SWIT
Just throw a fireball ... or two
Best game ever, I will die on this hill
@@diomedes39 I'll die with you. Skyrim can suck my taint.
Reminds me of Age of Empires lumberjacks
This actually gave me such a good laugh thank you!
Hey they're no joke, they can take down a whole tree in like, 3 swings.
@@TheWildManEnkidu or a whole forest nothing map with one man
@@HistoricalWeapons They're just built different.
If he hit a castle a couple of times with the blade he would set it on fire
I believe the I.33 manuscript refers to the "guards of the common fencer." This would at least show that common folk had some kind of working knowledge of how to use a sword/sword and buckler. On a separate note, I have a Battle of the nation's guy as a customer. He tried to tell me that there aren't any sources for historical fencing, armored or unarmored. I just smiled and nodded because he's a lot bigger than me lol.
Exactly. Bashing amour with a sword simply doesn’t work
You have to be careful with historical sources like that referring "common" techniques, as in the incredibly class conscious thinking of the time "common" or "vulgar" can have similar connotations to "noob" or "dumb." For example, Fiore refers to "la botta del pesante" (peasant strike) in his book as being a downwards chop like you're trying to split a log. There is also a 17th century French smallsword treatise that refers to a "peasant strike" that consists of grabbing the hilt in two hands and trying to beat the other fencers sword down to stab them. These are not techniques that are part of a dedicated lower class martial system, they're just things people do when they don't know how to fight. Its like a modern martial arts instructor showing a wild haymaker right as a "street" technique, it's not part of a martial art called "street fighting," it's just what people do when they don't know how to throw a punch.
All of that said, lower class martial arts did and do exist and can be remarkably complex. Examples include: southern Italian knife fighting, Jogo do Pau, Glíma (as mentioned by Skall), Catch Wrestling, Wing Chun, Kali, Capoeira, Savate, and Tahtib.
"Common fencer" refers to "the average, inexperienced fencers", NOT common folk.
@@andrewk.5575 Pesante means heavy. That's just a really heavy strike. You're referring to the Colpo del villano (villain's/peasant's strike) which is literally just a two handed strike that uses all the force and weight you can put behind it
@@Sammysapphira do you have a source for that? I was using it as an example that lay people at least knew how to use a sword, if not having their own martial traditions. Scott Brown and Matt Easton talk about this in a video as well.
Medieval combat probably wasn't as flashy as we see in movies but it definitely wasn't what this knight was doing. I'd imagine they had more control and precision with their weapons they didn't just hit people like a kid would with a stick.
I love your videos medieval times as brutal as they were are my favorite part of history and I'd love to see more factual conversations about it and less Hollywood. Tho Hollywood is entertaining sometimes.
I wish more movies showed brutal fighting techniques. Like the sword bind. Have that happen but step close and punch the guy in the face with your guard. Stuff like that
@@nickbutler9831 Dude, same. I understand why that kind of thing isn't allowed in HEMA, but in a film setting it makes so much sense because (hopefully) nobody is getting hurt.
Reality's probably in between. No, you aren't cutting through plate, but a solid hit to the head still sucks a bit through armor, and can give that opening to find the gaps needed to subdue/kill.
I was thinking the same thing. Duels are one thing, but when you are exhausted, injured and half mad from adrenaline, caught in the middle of a battle field, I can absolutely imagine even a highly trained fighter might start just wildly smashing his sword against anything in front of him until he regains control of himself.
Especially if he is suffering from a concussion.
But this scenario seems more like a "smash your way to safety and immediately collapse" sort of situation and not the average combat experience.
would be flashy in tournament since that's what its supposed to in a friendly competition setting tbh
Thinking about how quickly elite boxers and MMA fighter get exhausted wearing nothing, I can't imagine this being a viable tactic, especially while wearing armor and or in battle facing multiple opponents
Well if you just swing your sword randomly like a baseball bat as you stumble forward you can probably do it for a while.
Have you seen people who aren’t good at kendo spar?
From a different group- SCA has melees that run around an hour. I've run tournament with my WMA school that lasted most of a day, including 20 minutes straight with spear in armor (bad idea, much regret) as a rank test. It's about how you condition, not just being in good condition. Compare the boxer/MMA to someone who's done the 100-man kumite- they aren't really doing anything different, just training to a different mentality.
MMA fighters are not the only ones getting exhausted wearing nothing.
@@astranix0198 Giggity.
When I was in college, there was a guy in our dorms who would argue till he was red in the face that historical swords were never sharpened -- it was all about brute strength bludgeoning of your opponent. I would have zero surprise if that was him in the knight armor :P
There was this AWFUL "Castaways in Time" novel series called _The Crosstime Engineer_ by the late not great Leo Frankowski, where in book one of the series, a fully trained medieval knight has to break the neck of a pig with his sword because medieval swords were of course dull iron clubs that did their damage by impact, not cutting. Frankowski was apparently a SCA fringe member who not only repeated the sword myths endemic in that subculture in the 80s, he created new garbage of his own making so he could project his sexual and combat fantasies into written form.
@@robertlehnert4148 Ah yes historically inncurate and that one meme of "The Writer's Barely Disgusted Fetish" that's fuckin hilrious
@@robertlehnert4148 Y'know it's now making me wonder when this myth of dull ass swords began since you stated "80's" which means it began a long time ago
Like weren't there movies that depicted swords to be instant cut or something during that era? I remember movies had a shots of a sword comming down then next shot an entire arm is just thrown to the ground
@@CrystallizedBlackSkull In an influential but flawed article, "On Blud and Thunder", SCA co-founder Poul Anderson discussed bad tropes of fantasy fiction, especially combat. Apparently some Society members had done some test-cutting "experiments" with reproduction medieval swords, which Anderson as an engineer should have seen was extremely faulty methodology, including free hanging pork roast cuts swinging away from sword strokes with only superficial cuts because the roasts were not tied down top AND bottom. Especially with SCA style wrap shots, the meat got knocked away before significant damage could be done, and the idea spread throughout the SCA that European swords were "dull iron clubs" but Japanese swords were the real world equivalent of a Star Wars lightsaber.
What makes this trope even more ridiculous is that the archaeological excavation of the Battle of Wisby (Coast of Sweden, 14th Century) was well known in the SCA, including the skeletal evidence of limb shearing, skull splitting, and decapitation capacity of medieval swords.
The dumbest myth i still hear around where i live ...is that ALL Real Swords used in combat were at least 15-20lbs.
There is a surviving, battlefield-based, Japanese sword school called Jigen-ryū that is purely about brute force chopping (and at maximum repeat rate). They are also known for screaming the whole time the chopping. They most typically just use simple tree branches for this practice (no point in using a finely crafted wooden sword if frequent breakage is expected).
While I haven't seen any clips of any work done in fighting formation, I suspect the idea was to have tight formation of warriors all chopping at at the same time, with no room in the formation for anything deflectional.
Against unarmored peasants that would definitely work. Then again, pretty much anything works against unarmored peasants.
I watched a video and it all looks like kidai kiyishi, which is something we just did for practice in Kendo to improve our stamina. Trying that in a real match would get you a quick suki straight to your throat.
They use it in Bosnian war,right? Shock value for first contact, so you just act more crazily than your enemies, must work half the time. Remembering there statements from the samurai during saying it’s pretty scaring at first contact but easy to deal with after that. Maybe for warfare value that’s enough and easy for training, after all the edo era samurais were a long way from previous all out war. Also, the Jigen ryu users mainly from Satsuma had history of acting like mad dogs during Sekigahara war by retreating into enemies and cut through for escape. A local culture plus easy to train sword drills., maybe?
Let’s don’t forget the time Jigen ryu made it’s fame was 19th, guns were already popular then even in feudal Japan.
Consider hoplite combat in Greece. It was a pushing match until one side broke. Army combat has as many variations in history as fencing styles.
It's the training so just a part of the ryu. There is demonstrations of Jigen-ryu which are not very battlefield based and/or with a lot of screamings.
For warrior formation they still use the yari, not just slay high with a contact weapon.
Yeah this is essentially the sword version of a revolutionary war - civil war era firing line. Learn a SPECIFIC but narrowly defined and easily trainable set of skills. Repeat at a high rate of fire. advance in formation.
This kind of system (whether its archers, crossbows, swordsman, riflemen), makes the battlefield equations quick for commanding officers. "all other factors being equal, we outnumber them 2 to 1. So.. we should win this engagement.... with 25-50% losses."
what are u on about Skall, this is master technique!
the repeated chop is still a proudly held and widely honoured tradition, passed down through the ages, between all by master chefs and lumber jacks around the world!
Truly too behold such... majesty, such profound...skill
Its the one technique that we can trace it's roots all the way back to the first of men.. ;)
"I SHALL CHOP YOU GOOD SIRE!!!"
"NOT IF I CHOP YOU EVEN MORE CHOPPILY, GOOD SIRE-SAN!"
The samurai culture has it's roots run deep in japanese history like an old trees roots run through most of the forest.
The knight in this scenario took this too literally and took the lumberjack fighting stance against him, quite literally treated the fight as if he were cutting down a tree.
And the knight still won lol
Samurai would've won if he used his actual weapon, the naginata
@@badbuddha93 Because the 'samurai' didn't or couldn't do a cut to the knight's wrists or armpit with his big ol baseball bat swings. Because the samurai guy didn't know what he was doing either.
"When all you ever use is an axe, every problem will look like a lumber."
--idk who
@@boid9761 the knight would have won if he used his actual foot combat weapon, the poleaxe
Watching that "master of historical fencing" reminds me of some fighting games I would play as a kid. I would find one button combo that worked and keep mashing it.
I like Matt Easton's take that these kinds of armoured fighting sports should aim to recreate historical tournament fighting if they want to call their sport "historical". The equipment (e.g. thicker armour) is already closer to what was used in tournaments than what was used on the battlefield, as you pointed out.
Ironically, they do recreate a type of historical tournament, as detailed in King Rene's Livre du Turnois, which is meant to bring back the tournament of old with current armor, rather than keeping the joust in primacy, as the joust is the least applicable to war, a sentiment which shows in de Charney's book of chivalry. The only thing missing is the horses, though for reasons of cost and preventing animal cruelty, I think we can agree to move on from.
most battle training is a one attack. Most battle training is "move forward" and "strike" . the reality is you get really pressured in battle,, so moving at all is hard. Knowing your move is even harder, so if you train a move, it's likely to come out (if you try hard enough). That means ,, lunge and stab, lunge and stab, lunge and stab
Well, most people in the sport will tell you that bouhurt represents a tournament
The event's were people fight are called tournaments, the problem is we don't have great content creatots in the sport yet
And yes , the technique in these video isn't great, but i will say that performing complex movements in armor with gauntlets is not easily done
I will add that the fighter in the video is using a two handed falchion, big cuts are to be expected, granted he could afford to mix it up a little. But I grantee he didn't choose the title of the video
@@brunocerra1850 having good form for fencing in armor is hard, but that guy isn't even trying. And that falchion, if the goal is to score point, seems like the worst possible choice
@@Grouuumpf I don't know the rules in these particular event
Some events require the valance or wheit of the weapons to be in a specific range ( to specifically avoid the use of the lightest possible "weapon" )
Anyway, technique in the video isn't great but you have to judge it in the context of the sport
Medieval tournaments like the ones from Buhurt and HMB are actually pretty entertaining. 5 vs 5 matches are my favorite to watch because teamwork and individual skill are equally important when working in that small of a team.
Yes but it is martial sport.
If the guy is, in his own time, an actual instructor in historical fencing, then at least the caption would still be *technically* correct. But if this guy were an instructor, and his students saw that this is what his performance looks like when he's actually called on to demonstrate his techniques, I think they'd probably all start reevaluating whether he's someone it makes any sense to try to learn from.
He's what Liechtenauer called a buffalo, who only know to use brute force to bash people; or a false master under the eyes of Fiore, who called himself a fencing master that later on will get brutally murderer by Fiore himself, and became an example in his manuscripts of what not to do
Maybe he's a drunken master, on a level we cannot comprehend.
Even in the SCA we try to parry and attack from different angles...
Folks with even a little SCA experience tend to do well in Buhurt duels. Buhurt dueling is young enough that there are a lot of folks with very little instruction or experience. Since their melee's are basically armored judo, the skills don't transfer much.
Yeah it definetly a problem I have with some videos like that. Its just big guys whacking each other and throwing each other around in armour.
Would be great if Skall could interview these guys... seriously.
@@martine3214 As a fighter in this sport (not from this guy's team mind you) I know several people in the community who would be fantastic to interview.
As someone who has held tournaments like this for the Buhurt League or Duel's League that's forming now there are definitely people who actually work on doing Parrys for duels and then there are those who just chop chop chop. It often comes down to how long they've been in the sport etc.
And just to mention, stabbing ist not allowed in hmb
4:30 that’s something I’ve always wondered about HEMA or any of these particular martial arts, is that “Does this actually accurately convey what you’re feeling or doing in a legit, kill or be killed situation?” Because if you’re a legit, kill or be killed situation, are you really going to act and particularly move in a way we see in sterile situations wherein there is practically no threat of death.
Like, what the hell would an knight or samurai flush with adrenaline in his muscles and movements, whose been training literally their entire lives, with their minds and bodies forged to perfection, look like on the battlefield or any situation of life or death. What would they look like, how would they move? Be it a spear, a halberd or sword, I imagine an absolutely terrifying and formidable opponent no matter what.
It depends. The training absolutely helps. The conditioning alone would put that individual above most other people, and they are more likely to utilize the skills that they were taught.
That being said, sometimes, shit happens. There are stories where blind judoka beat up people trying to rob them, then you get 20+ year combat veterans who get killed in a knife attack. It happens, but training and conditioning (as well as mindset) can make the difference.
@@redundantfridge9764 In a Battlefield situation, armour also is huge, tactics that would be extremely dangerous otherwise now become far more viable. I’m glad you touched on mindset too. I’ve always wondered, particularly with weapons what mindset are you in when holding them. Like if you’re holding a sword, I’ve always noticed that in re-enactments and mock battles, whenever the swordsmen are able to knock, turn aside or even notice something small that draws the spearmen’s focus or attention, they immediately charge and close the distance before the spearmen know it, and suddenly they’re at a huge advantage with their shorter weapon.
And this was fairly success and done several times, and these were in re-enactments wherein the rules stipulated that one light poke could take you out. I always imagined this is because their weapon forces them to be aggressive, and due to the fact they’re wearing armour and a holding a shield, suddenly it becomes actually a very much viable strategy.
HEMA study reveals to you real, effective, efficient techniques for fighting and killing.
But sparring practice and tournaments have rules in place to prevent you from using lots of those techniques--because the study and sport sides of the hobby don't want you to really kill anyone.
That lethality gap between theory and practice needs to be stressed and appreciated. Tourneys with video footage shared with and marketed to the masses have a major need to point this out to people.
Not to mention the over-hyping by indicating this Euro fighter's technique represents HEMA mastery. That's just lazy and dishonest.
Your training, no matter how rigorous, is likely to fail you your first time seeing the elephant. Don’t get me wrong, it certainly will help. There is a reason that in historic record of the difference between knights and conscripts is so large. The lion hart on crusade comes to mind.
@@texasbeast239 definitely HEMA shows you how you’d effectively kill someone in a real fight, no doubt about that, but have you ever gotten into a fight with swords wherein the other guy is legit trying to kill you, not just sparring? That’s essentially what I’m asking.
The first thing attached to HEMA I saw was two guys in full plate "dagger fighting"; IE jumping each other and violently hugging while flailing with rattan sticks like a badly-executed prison shanking.
It colored my impression of the whole group for years. People have this weird impression that wild swinging is legit swordfighting as long as you're wearing 60 pounds of gear.
Anything is ‘real swordfighting’ if you’re fighting with a sword, even if it’s exceptionally shitty swordfighting
Honestly that's my current perception of HEMA. It honestly looks little better then watching a bunch of brutish thugs flail about wildly
This is literally arnis (escrima) in a nutshell we got the same problem over here,
@@PoshBeard Anything is 'real basketball' as long as you have a basketball in your hands, even if you're just sitting on the toilet.
@aaaaaaaaaaaa1aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Honestly the more I look into hema the less respect I have for it. Largely because a lot of hema practitioners have a "go for the throat" mentality and generally scoff at any fight that doesn't end in like 2 seconds.
So honestly as sloppy as the knight is, he symbolizes the HEMA mindset perfectly. "Go hyper aggressive and make sure they can never get back up. Do your best to make sure its as one sided and brutal as humanly possible for extra points."
Thank you for creating consistently good content like this.
Reminds me of mortal kombat 1 with my brother. I had all sorts of cool abilities and skills I could do and he just spammed that stupid punch or low kick over and over especially when I was against the wall.
Yup.
My brother did the same thing in every fighting game.
and he whooped your ass and won every match. sucks to be on the receiving end, but it works nearly every time once you get that first stunning hit
@bastiat wrong thread?
@bastiat what does your comment have to do with this comment thread?
I am glad how the armor and padding is heavier was mentioned. Often those details are missed. Guessing like the SCA your not seeing leg strikes because knee and below are not valid targets in the system to prevent more injuries.
I thought you could strike the legs but then you have to walk on your knees? Or am I thinking of a different rule set?
@@chaos_omega You can hit the thigh. If I remeber correctly you also are not supposed to thrust hard at the face cage of a helm to lessen neck injury. It has been a few years.
@@lunchboxcomiks I see. One of the reasons why I never pursued SCA is because of the odd combat rules. Same with LARP. As a martial artist (barely), I think I would feel too restricted. I wish there was a LARP or something similar where my in-game skills were based on my real-life skills.
@Chaos Omega I'll admit on the martial training side im limited but what little ive done and the people I've talked to there are always safety constraints, game like rules, and preferred techniques. So im not sure what you mean by real life skills. Even MMA don't get in real life fights. Its a far more intense sporting match but it has its own ruleset.
@@lunchboxcomiks MMA doesn't get in real life fights? I don't know how you got that impression. In my youth I was training to be a pro MMA fighter. Since then, I've been in 4 fights (unfortunately... 2 of those were my own fault, but I've learned since then.) I've been in dozens of altercations as a security guard. There's footage of MMA fighters using their skills to defend themselves, break up a robberies, etc... Anyway, what I mean by real life skills, is if I have training in HEMA longsword, I would want my character to have that equivalent skill, and no skills that I don't have in real life. That way I won't be beat up in LARP by people that can't actually fight. The only thing that would need to be simulated is magic, but that doesn't necessarily need to be included. It could even be a post-apoc setting.
You upload so frequently, it's awesome! These videos are incredibly entertaining.
I'm very happy you mentioned the SCA Skall, as someone who has taken part in events myself (though I never became a member, I just tagged along with my best friend and always had a blast) it's nice to see it brought up.
Buhurt looks fun, and is definetly athletic, but I don't consider it actual, historical armored combat.
We all know that you just wouldn't fight a dude in armor like that, whether its medieval styled armor, or modern riot armor; unless using a poleaxe or warhammer etc.
Yeah, buhurt is all about having fun and beating the shit out of each other while in armor. At least the buhurt people I know are very open about the "historical accuracy" of their sport, some also do HEMA and reenactment and differentiate heavily between those things.
@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei oh yeah, no shame in that. LOOKS fun as hell. Just like Skall, I get a little bugged when people assume it's very historical
I also fight in buhurts and those dudes on this video are not even fighting like they would fight in buhurts, I'm quite a novice in buhurt but I fight with 2 handed axe and we are told to targed vulnerable places, that are less protected or aren't protected at all, there are few exceptions like back of head and back of knees or frontal strikes in knees, but you can targed such a places like armpit or tailbone (imagine getting hit with 2 handed axe in tailbone when its not protected by armour :D ) its not just smashing anywhere in the armour, in buhurt you should hit to cause pain, the more pain opponent feel the better (like for example strikes under armpit, such a strikes with 2 handed axes would probably remove you from tournament, its painfull as heck).
@kpakalski The reason they are fighting so weird is because it's a duel scored by how many hits you can get on the opponent without getting hit yourself, which is why the person in the samurai armor is trying to parry.
Buhurt is based on a medieval tournament format. Its counted blows over a set period of time not about landing real killing blows or fighting as if it was a real fight to the death. You parry just to deny points to your opponent but if you think you can get more points in you dont have to worry about defense. It is true to the examples of some medieval tournaments.
I'll add one more thing to this, especially concerning "master" part. Those two are clearly guys from Polish IMCF/Battle of Nations circle and since I'm into it for more than 10 years I feel competent in this. Those two are, well, I don't wanna say "nobodies", but I haven't seen their names anywhere prominently. In contrast one of the Polish fencers/fighters from the same circle - Marcin Waszkielis - remains as almost (sans one time) undefeated world champion of IMCF sword and shield dueling since 2014. If you wanna see truely masterful fencing in late medieval plate armor, go watch him. I don't know how much are his moves historical, but he surely is effective and it looks good too!
”I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” - Bruce Lee
10 seconds in and I….well….sigh goddamnit
The guy in the Samurai armour is really impressive, the brute force factor is very real and it takes immense skill to consistantly counter like that
This knight is like the guy who keeps sweeping or jump kicking in Mortal Kombat because it's easy.
Knight? Not even
I don't actually know anything about HEMA, but this just looks *wrong* based on common sense. Knights were professional soldiers, right? Even I can imagine better ways to use a sword against someone wearing armor, and I'm just some guy.
Yeah. This Chop chop Knight is the equivalent of imagining a modern soldier running into a building rambo-style, hip fire unloading whole magazine.
Knights were not pro soldiers.. they were more like managers with fancy cars and hired security bouncers
@@martine3214 Knights were the bouncers. Managers were the high nobility.
You aren't actually trying to kill the other fighter in this duel. Sad truth, I know.
@@BigBossTussBall Even more reason to fight properly.
First, I agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here.
I fight in Buhurts as well as duels. Always happy to send you some decent videos that aren’t just choppy boi chops🤗
Master of historical beeg bonk
Me no dex, me only BONK! ME. ONLY. BONK!!
@@zzodysseuszz This is the way
@@zzodysseuszz chadicus maximus . Thour't a true chad indeed
That’s the thing that needs to be considered, in an ACTUAL fight to the death, you’re trying to kill eachother. Going for gaps, etc. as Skall mentioned. But in these spars, they’re not actually trying to kill. I think it would be really hard to replicate what an actual fight would have looked like. You can get close, but there’s always going to be an impotence to it.
*Unless we get a crazy ass LiveLeak-esque video someday of an armored melee fight to the death. You never know, stranger things have happened 😂
You can still clinch, sweep throws, disarms in the clinch in armoured fighting. Throwing the opponent down to the ground when both ended up in a close bind means they are already in a dead position in the battlefield. Multiple ways to make things more realistic and safe than just mindlessly bashing each other in the head over and over
@@babysealsareyummyDo not forget, we have current ongoing fights between people using the best modern armor and weapons they can get to kill each other. We also have equally brutal fights elsewhere with less armor available.
ua-cam.com/video/yHw5yz4uRa8/v-deo.html this guy has some good fights and also them of course youtube.com/@AdoreaOlomouc
Y'all must've missed the antifa riots and their penchant for killing people guarding store fronts with swords.... real sword couldn't stand against a mob of people! One vs a hundred...
That psychological aspect of combat is not much well covered I guess. I mean, having the ability to properly reason in the midst of a fight is very important. You need to be tough with your body and techniques, but also with your mind as well. Specially in large, asymmetric battles. There are many things which can get in your way. You can scary yourself. You can end up in a deep complex situation lacking broad oversight of what is going on around you, thus this could also bring fear altogether. In some battles you can already start it tired if you have been running towards a position and such. So, except for the duels, of course, I think the mistakes much like would prevail instead of getting the thing properly right, which is sort of an exception. Or perhaps those who mistake the least win, or something like that.
@bastiat4855 Well, people used to say it isn't good to lose your temper in a fight. Those who keep their cool usually win.
If you're able to pull off some karate move and manage to strike first with force and surprise, you may be able to keep on going, but this isn't always possible, specially when it comes to sword action, when people wear armor already, and they can not only parry your blows but also use shields.
What you can see and take from it matters a lot in combat. If you simply go by your feelings and stop paying attention to things, ignoring the adversary weak spots and moves, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.
You can perhaps train yourself, however, to think more quickly and get used to some expected moves from the adversary and act fast in response to them. But as far as I understand from war, the goal is always to surprise the other part. So, going to a fight expecting the enemy to behave always in accordance with your expectations is a little bit reckless, in my opinion.
@bastiat you just did it yourself. If you don't think about how you're going to fight while fighting you're just a dumb fighter.
Good video its something that annoys me as well. No problem if they have fun but to depict it as histoical accurate and then seen by thousands of people just gives a even wronger impression of the middle ages, renaissance etc. Wildly chopping would be often quite deadly for the guy doing it since hes showing weaknesses(armpits) in his armor and its stated that it was quite dangerous to attack more than once or twice in a row. Monte talks about it and rather advises to be safer than sorry and to displace the body to attack once or twice etc and immediately recover to protect the body. Contionously attacking is rarely advised by him and he says it opens up the body for counter blows.
What you said about entire own class of martial arts for normal folks this seems to be true. There is wrestling, stone throwing and some implications of fencing and other things. Some masters also assume you already know those techniques so they dont tell you about this but rather just tell you their counters. Sometimes when they refer to peasant strikes etc its more likely imo(and beccause of the wording in the text) that its just not elegant or the best solution. Giganti much later notes that two time parry- attacks are ugly and inelegant /not noble but much more efficient and safer. But still not really bashing. Another problem with the video is that both armors are not really adequate to represent historical "battle" same goes for the weapons. They would also probably go much more for half swording than bashing which is quite possible with tachi/katana as well.
But nonetheless respect where respect is due, they have good stamina and strenght.
I actually do bohurt, and I'm with you. Most guys in the sport like to wrestle in armour and swing around big choppy things (not to mention wear extremely sketchy armour, both in historiosity and safety), which is fine (except the unsafe armour). However, I agree that it shouldn't be considered an accurate representation of historical combat.
There are some really talented fighters that do justice to the tradition of tournament fighting, but largely our sport is just "haha metal thing go bonk bonk clang".
Also, do keep in mind bohurt is kind of limited in its technicality. It prohibits pretty much everything that would actually counters armour (hammers, thrusting, grappling, etc), since we're not trying to kill each other.
It works on a point system, where solid strikes to legal zones count for points, which is supposed to emulate "working around an opponent's defense and striking a vital area".
well vast majority of combatants were low level trained so historical fencing can be aplied to bunch of dudes mashing eachother with clubs
Umm.. if your conscripts were laborers used to working together in work parties with polearms... do you not think they would be dangerouse when team work is there best factor?
Great video as always
I really appreciate the insert about commoners having potentially entirely separate traditions of fencing. I'd argue that some of what we see in Thalhoffers fencing manual is taken from that, as he would have taught people from different parts of society.
What bothers me in buhurt that it's just dudes chopping people as long as their stamina lasts..
Check out the rules on pulling an opponent to the ground... there is a wrestling component too.
Oh look! A knight of the holy order of left mouse klick!
That video was recommended to me, and now you react to it. UA-cam recommendation circle.
Glad you acknowledged the nuance of the SCA as I belong to. And hats off for how you stated that. Also this reminds me of "prize fights" of steel fighting versus historical sword fighting
well done
My favorite lazy depiction of sword fighting is the *alternates bashing each others swords left and right* one. It blows my mind when they repeat it 8.. 10.. 12.. 14 times and try to act like "holy crap! that was crazy!'
I like the wording in the title "sword vs katana!" And here I thought a katana was a sword all along. I guess that's why I'm not a master of historical fencing.
Your technique has improved!
Always love when you wear the Skallbeaver shirts.
The main difference between Historical and "It most likely happened this way because it makes sense" is that Historical means it was recorded.
"That's not historical" doesn't mean "it never happened". It just means nobody ever wrote it down.
Yeah, but nobody ever spent massive amounts of time and money to train knights - who were not only professional warriors but were also noblemen, part of the ruling class - to just W+M1 at their opponent. We know it didn't happen because anyone stupid enough to do that would have been written about, made fun of by everyone!
@@bloodleader5 so you're telling me that in the entirety of armoured combat in history not a single 1v1 duel went like this, the people taking part in these duels were human, its safe to assume that this has happened many times and probably often enough that there is no reason to speak of it, maybe they did it because it was funny and they were performing to a crowd, maybe they were a foot taller and 100lbs heavier than their opponent or even the rules of the specific fight meant that this was effective, the likelihood is that hitting someone repeatedly in the same motion with a long iron bar in a fight between two people using long iron bars to fight with probably happened at some point
@@lemmingsftw2480 You clearly can't read. I said that no professional warrior was TRAINED to behave like that, because it is not effective and would get them killed. Learn to read.
"Knight banned for R1 spamming."
I completely agree that some things we just can't know keeping with the battlefield example ...I have always wondered what it felt like being there at the start then at the end and we can guess but unless we get there we will never truly know
I'm glad i found your videos. They are really fun. My question is would be willing to do a video talking about the effectiveness of darts and arrows being fired from a slingshot against of ancient armor, and how would thy stack up with bows?l as far as accuracy etc....
Cant believe that Knight is just spamming R1, what a casual.
Samurai shouldve just fist parried smh
Lord have mercy 🤦🏾♂️🤣⚔️
He’s using that “sword” as an axe!
That's a mlabajowski (ik I spelled that wrong sorry) falchion as seen in the majalboski bible. It's un proven whether it existed or not, but due to its design it's very popular in bashing armor clubs
@@randomsketchystuff5572 maciejowski*
More like a club.
There so much more things you can do with an axe than CHOP CHOP CHOP.
Like hooking, parrying, minding your distance, etc.
@@randomsketchystuff5572 Maciejowski* bible
Loved the chat. we should do this more often. histori caly speaking on a few decades or so to speak dueling and fencing had the best rep of none worlds. a true swordman such as yourself. I can tell .of course. I pride just a bit myself to point the obvious. Cunado. my dad says. when is the wedding? by the way. historic battles and the latest beach course scenography bring me to the now historic moment. theeeee. Hola Mathison Brother. a very big find of ass wooping material to explore. guns aside and the travel vs economic power nations to end of course. I thank you for this my brothers. real good work
Love that saber-lookin' thang in the back.
It kinda reminds me of some examples of point sparring I've seen where one of the practitioners just makes use of blitzing, throwing reverse punch after reverse punch after reverse punch while stepping forward all the time, with the aim of either forcing their opponent out of the ring, or to keep them so occupied they can get a sneaky kick in.
reverse punch?
@@fluffypinkpandas Means the cross in boxing. The karate blitz is basically you throw 2 crosses while stepping forward into southpaw and back to orthodox instead of jab cross like in boxing.
Once in a while there'll be a guy like this who takes full advantage of the sport being just a sport, not a real fight, and define a new meta. Soon after this everyone is going to follow due to how efficient it is, and the sport is going to get boring fast unless the rulemakers do something about it.
What sort of rule? You can only use the same Chop ten times? You have to try to parry at least five times? You lose points if your technique cannot be found in a book?
If there is a flaw or a weakness in a fighter's style, the skill will be developed to beat it.
@bastiat I have been fighting in the Society for Creative Anachronism for over 35 years. I have fought with the USA team at the Battle of the Nations and the IMCF world championships three years (until I was injured) and have kept active in training, refereeing, and making videos about the sport of full-contact medieval armored combat for the past 11 years. So the number of armored combat fights, between the two different styles, cannot easily be counted.
I have also had 50 competitive matches in BJJ/submission grappling. so I am not strictly an armored combat guy.
So I know that when someone uses a technique that works, other people will copy it, and still other people will try to figure out how to beat it.
You don't have to be an expert to realize that. What is your expertise?
@@captainzorikh huzzaaaam! (medieval mic drop) Yeah for all my love/hate of sports like Buhurt.. if the rules are "until he gives up or falls down" then.. yeah.. this is what you get. But as you say, the technique to beat him ALREADY exists. The samurai guy probably should have gotten in close and gone for grapples / wrestling / disarming. You have to force the opponent to disrupt their pattern. I dunno how to accomplish that when both parties are using two-handed weapons brute force style though.
@bastiat You asked a specific question, I gave you a specific answer. Enjoy the company of your keyboard.
@bastiat Believe what you want to believe. What is your experience in this field?
JEEZ, I saw bits of metal flying from that sparring footage. What the heck, that guy's going just completely full-send.
Thanks for the video skall
They are fighting like Barbarians in Clash of Clans.
If that's a master then I'd hate to see how skilled his students are
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 cuts once, but I fear the man who has practiced one chop 10,000 times. "
-Sir Brucelot
man the moment Skall talked about "knowing what style counters another" i couldn't help but think of the princess bride fight.
I'm an absolute novice - but I'm 6 3" and 110kg..... So in a life and death full harness fight I'd probably be like choppy chop man.....I'd have no choice.
But in a sporting arena I'd like to think I'd try my best to actually fence / use technique.... otherwise how would I improve???
I think in a life or death situation, wherein you’re becoming flush with adrenaline, I feel someone like a Knight or a Samurai who’ve trained their entire lives for this, with every part of their body honed to a razors edge, I believe no matter the weapon they’d become a terrifying opponent.
@@pyrrhusofepirus8491 Oh god yes, my best chance would be to unbalance them and run away.
@@daemonharper3928 One attack to get their wrists where you can grab them, then do that and turn it into a wrestling match.
I asked this question awhile ago In one of your q&a so happy to see you cover it in a whole video
Has it ever occurred to anyone that despite all the chopping and lack of defensive maneuvers, that this guy could actually be a fencing master? He could be building fences everyday for clients and he could be great at it!! You can't judge a guys fence building prowess based on his sword wielding skills, just like you can't judge a chefs cooking by watching him play tennis.🤣
That's his patented "drive post into ground" hammer strike. Works every time until he hits a rock or root.
I wish a video with an "accurate" fight between two duelers (not fencers) fighting with big swords and armor had been included too.
It would be nice to not only say "don't do that" but also "do this instead"
You know, this thought never yet crossed my mind, but that beck de corbin you have on the wall is super stylish, but can be even funnier with a proper upward spike. That way you'll not only be splitting heads, but will add insult to injurie, literally xD
The "knight" guy doesn't even use a sword. It's a two handed cleaver, something often used in multiple opponent fights. Think 12, 16, 25 people teams going against each other. And in that setting both the weapon and, let's say, "technique" of its use do work.
Dude... Hat's off. The balls on you, as THEE premiere "sword guy" of youtube for actually admitting that we did not know what ancient battlefields looked like. It always throws me for a bit of a loop when someone calls themself a master of swordsmanship etc. for participating in these fake mock battles where usually no one is very seriously hurt let alone killed. Whenever I hear someone is a master of the blade my first thought is - "Okay, how many people have you killed with a sword?"
Always something of interest!
Pretty sure this is a demo of buhurt (or bohurt /armored combat ) where the knight fighter is using a weapon he is unfamiliar with and is doing what seems to be working in his mind but is just flailing . Having said that buhurt is a recreation of tournament foot combat and where thrusting or doing a lethal move was frowned upon or forbidden altogether as the point was to get as many solid hits to the others body for a point system....could be wrong but that's what it seems like to me
Just push the other over and they cant get back up. Mastered 😹😹
So hit him in the head enough to disable, doing something like repeated overhead strikes while relying on armor to protect you from katana.... but don't do what that guy does
I thought they weren't trying to kill eachother
@@Archimedes.5000 No, they must fight to the death, otherwise it wouldn't be Master of Historical Fencing.
Just find it funny he says it's not the way to fight ... but also he should do what he's doing to win a fight
@@gabrielvanderschmidt2301you (and them) just got it backwards, you are supposed to use real, deadly historical techniques with modern safety gear, not "historical" safety gear with whatever the fuck techniques
Would love to see some "content" about how historically men at arms trained to be mutually supporting. And if any customs sprang from it.. such as African dance to Maurice dancing? There is a whole aspect missing in this interest community.
I've played enough turn-based RPG games to know standing still and taking turns to bash each other is exactly how historic combat works.
For the Love of Steel !
The fist rule of HEMA is to have fun
I mean no one is forcing people to not have fun. Just don't go to the internet and spread misinformations for click baits and create unnecessary arguments
HEMA is supposed to be fun but it's also supposed to follow realistic historical techniques (even when that boils down to a lot of hand sniping)
Otherwise it isn't HEMA it's just sword fighting.
Those guys weren't doing HEMA from the looks of it anyway, looks like it was probably an HMB duel, which has a wildly different rule set from HEMA tournaments.
Well you could describe their mindset being "bashing your opponent into submission".
I don't know if you ever read comments, but an idea for a video you could do is prolonged fighting. We have a test in our group called the 20min non stop ((Steel and wood versions)) people need to do for rank tests and I feel like lots of people don't understand that even 5 minutes of uninterrupted combat can really take it out of you. people have this view of picking up a sword and fighting in a restrictive helmet and full armor for hours. But I feel like most people wouldn't last five minutes before they became too tired. Also I'm not talking about normal matches or duels where you get those moments of rest here and there. Our non stops are literally a line of people waiting to fight and the objective is the person testing does not get to stop fighting or take a rest for 20 minutes. By the end of it most end up fighting from the ground on their knees lol... Also you get hit in the head a lot -_- Even the 5 mins are brutal to be honest.
Hehe button mashing, r1 r1 r1 r1 r1 r1 r1
I have taken to calling HEMA “armored body slamming.” I wish they used their weapons more lol
Thats not HEMA thoe dummy.
He mastered the blade to the point where he only needs one move to dominate now.
love u skall u are the sweetest little boy with swords on the internet
Yeah guy with the Katana had dozens of openings from the beginning of the match, legs, under arms i mean dude looked like a loose fridge door with all that flopping about
If you're both in armor it was more about trying to throw each other on the ground, than anything.
All joking about Poles aside, this is probably just something that works in the context of this competition. In tabletop games like Warhammer 40k you don't win games by playing "realistic" armies that try to mirror what real armies in reality look like. You win by playing what works in "the Meta" of the game and it is the same with competitions like this.
He probably won before doing that, or he saw someone else win by doing that and realistically, in a game where you can't stab someone through the gaps in their armor, this might very well be the most effective strategy. What is the other guy gaining by trying to parry every 3rd strike? Unless there are lots of "style" points being given for doing it, he is probably just wasting his time and energy.
Okay, allow me to clarify about this video, Skall.
This is from (orginally) a Polish Buhurt YT channel, which was then picked by this MMA channel who used the title to get clicks. This is a "Longsword" duel.
Yes the method of the red armored fighter is atrocious (As my beginner Buhurt Longsword duelists opinion) while the samurai armored duelist is very good.
I'm guessing your gripe is, besides the title, why there are no thrusts?
Safety. It is against the rules in Buhurt to thrust due to safety worries. Buhurt is a historically inspired sport dating back to the 14th century. Buhurt means in (medieval) french "to wallop" and was used as a means to keep knights and men at arms up to skill during times of peace. Buhurt consists of striking and grappling during melees, but this is a duel, so striking, and no thrusting, is pretty much the only way to score "points" during the duel (you can do pummel strikes though).
I understand that from a HEMA standpoint, this is very cringy, watching a person with no skill just mount and blade down attack over and over and I can agree. Please note that this doesn't reflect all duelists of the sport.
I know you touched on some of these points, and I hope that maybe I can get to you to have a honest discussion and olive branch between HEMA and Buhurt communities.
Thank you! I was afraid I was the only one, I thought I was going crazy!
I'm a Buhurt athlete, and I should say this guy is the exact opposite of a "master".... he's just a lame fighter with zero strategy for scoring points in a duel.
That said, people shouldn't expect full HEMA techniques here, such as stabbing, half-swording, pommel strikes etc. because they are totally forbidden in HMB for a simple reason: they're just TOO LETHAL even with full plate on.
For instance, one of my teammates almost lost an eye when my sword guard accidentaly entered his helmet while we were sparring. Now imagine if I was actually trying to stab him...
If Meyer was still alive today,he'd probably foam in the mouth at that knight which resembles what he described as a "Mindless Peasant Brawler". Haha. Great video as always,Skall.
I hear not every group is like this & I think they've improved as a group but in the early 2000s the local SCA used to stand still & bash tactics. They taught that one should squat, place bottom of shield on one's knee m, pivot around the shield leg & rain blows down. No active attempt to not get hit really just hit until a hit is good enough to kill or be killed by. But when I'd point to the manuals to show the variety of techniques & more active fighting these same people would tell me they didn't need the manuals as they already knew how to "fight medieval " & the SCA had been doing so for decades.
Back in the day I was wanting to start a HEMA club as I wanted to take my swordplay to a more serious level. So I figured SCA folks might be interested. But the above is what I observed from them. Additionally they told me if I really wanted to learn swordplay I could come to their practice & learn from them but I would be treated as a beginner & had to fight as they told me to!
I did manage to get a few if their fighters to soar with me including one who I was told was their best. It was more like repeating a drill than sparring as all I did was repeatedly displace their bashy attacks to create openings & then cut. I beat 5 of them with little effort & only recieved 3 or 4 glancing blows in 2 hours. After which they said things like "no real knight/fighter could move that fast in medieval times", "we held back so as not to hurt you as you're a beginner." & "You may have gotten a few hits in but your style wouldn't work in real life."
I was unimpressed with their bashy bashy swordplay. But their bad attitudes left such a bad taste in my mouth that I still get irritated seeing bashy bashy swordplay.