We are using the pin retention, this is mandatory for us. We are working on turbines and generators. Any foreign material left inside the machine after the maintenance can cause millions of dollars of damages. It happened before where a socket fall off in a place that is very hard/impossible to reach, hence the mandatory requirement for us to use the pin retention.
The pin and o-ring is a Japanese industrial standard they need to follow when using sockets on pneumatic and electric drives, it’s a safety feature to ensure the sockets don’t fly off and hurt someone. They also need to tether their hand tools to their belts when on ladders and scaffolding, you’ll see their hammers and other hand tools having lanyard holes a lot. That Proto Black Hawk ratchet is a Tone rebrand, Tone does have a good amount of their ratchets made in Taiwan.
The cross pin retention is required in many Asian countries. I had a neighbor that moved from Japan to the US and he was absolutely baffled by the hog ring style socket retention. He insisted the socket would fly off without cross pin retention.
The half bore in these sockets is actually for a pin detent, not a ball detent. The pin detent is not that common, but it exists. You have to use a small screwdriver to change your sockets, so it’s only useful when you want to permanently put a socket on. My father has an old Bosch impact with that o ring and pin fixiation. I think this is a relic from the past.
Interesting video. One of the fitment considerations is the ball and the ball holding groove. Shape, size, and design all play a factor. For example, my Koken sockets will not lock onto some cheaper quick release ratchets. Almost any socket will have very little play on a Wright ratchet because of how much the ball on the anvil protrudes and it has high spring tension. Originally their sockets didn't even have ball holding grooves. Just a couple factors to consider as you possibly extend your testing as you get in more product I really enjoy this kind of stuff and have enjoyed your channel for a while. I'd like to see more of the German ratchets. In my tinkering with this, the Hazet has had rock solid fitment almost as good as Koken. Their quick release HP ratchets do seam to have slightly more play in them though.
My main use of the pin and o ring is for work at height industries. To prevent falling object incidents. Typically on construction, offshore and marine use.
Many brands like Gedore use the pin lock style for their larger impact sockets and extension drives. My 1974 1inch drive imact sockets use the pin lock.
Love my Japanese tools. Koken, Nepros, Tone, Anex, Vessel etc. Never been dissatisfied with any of their products. Have multiple Koken Ratchets, they are my go to.
I can imagine many situations where a socket is ideal BUT dropping a socket inside something would be a massive problem. I suspect that cross-drilled hole, with a cross pin and O-ring cold make dropping a socket almost impossible. perhaps this is the application for it.
Hey Bzeug. I am the lead engineer for an industrial tool supplier in the United states. We supply everything from hand tools, to power tools, to extremely precise aerospace grade electronically controlled tools. We also supply custom sockets, torque tools, and countless other assembly tool related solutions. I would be more than happy to talk with you about all the different products and designs that are out there and answer any questions you may have about tools in general. This is in now way an attempt at promotion. I just like tools!
On production lines they use the pin as the socket never gets swapped as each "station" is for a specific task. Very interesting with the placement of the ball, I too always lined up the hole with the ball. Tested it and it does make the socket fit tighter. Think it goes to show that unless you really pay attention to it, it does not really matter.
The explosion in 1980 at Damascus Titan missile in Arkansas was initiated by the Air Force tech not reading the safety bulletin about securing a socket to the ratchet. using the cross bore. The socket fell off to the bottom of the missle silo, punching a hole int he missle releasing toxic and flammable gases
Wow! Ok, THIS is why they make cross bore socket retention! encyclopediaofarkansas.net/entries/titan-ii-missile-explosion-2543/#:~:text=The%20Titan%20II%20Launch%20Complex,duct%20on%20September%2019%2C%201980.
I would like to see Kijen go against its sister plant Nepros. I suspect Nepros will come out the winter. The quality they put into their tools is just four notches above what even Snap On does. However I place Koken ratchets far better than snap-on due to the near no back drag. Smooth as silk..
The cross pin feature is good for big heavy industrial 3/4 sockets and above where you might be pushing a long ratchet (with 2 hands and another person holding the socket side onto the bolt) and you have a higher chance of deviating the pushing or pulling forces in the z direction. Direction that could pop the socket out. But for smaller ratchet its probably for use in factories where the workers are doing bolts in repetition and they rarely had to change socket size.
Just pined my 1 3/8” 3/4” drive socket on a couple days ago. 3/4” and 1” sockets super common when the sockets get that big and heavy and you are doing stuff like replacing and torquing 32 1” bolts upside down in a boom lift pedestal. The last thing you need is to worry about the damn socket falling off especially if you are under it or even your helper is under it.
Likewise had always thought and done the same as you. I can only assume the fixed-to-anvil sockets are for industrial use (as I'd seen them described in Ko-ken's industrial catalog), where you don't want employees changing sockets anyway (one fitting-type to a single assembly station), but sure, I guess I could also imagine it in aerospace? Curious to see what comments are left, and if you make yet another follow-up on the topic.
Love all your videos. My Koken and Stahlwille are my favorites ratchets. They seem to have a “soul” of some sort, lol. Still use my Tekton and USA Craftsman ratchets, but they are pretty sloppy. Starting to move them from the workshop to car kits and such.
The few Koken tools I've bought I've been extremely impressed with the fit and finish. Definitely plan on getting more. Btw can you do a comparison video on different brands wobble fix extension bars? I know you have some Wera ones
There's only one thing I don't like about my new Tone ratchet. Is the quick release function on a you have to press it very hard and almost countersink it before it will release the socket or extension bar you have on it. Outside of that it's a very good ratchet but it does take a little extra time to switch out sockets. A problem I've never come across with on my Koken ratchets. However I do want to get one of these Wera Cyclops ratchets. I've been looking at them for over a year now and just haven't gone ahead and bought one I do like the way that the head spins all the way around earn it. However I don't like to play between the socket and the bolt that you just exposed from it
As a heavy duesel mechanic japanese imoact sockets largely use those locking pins and also impact sockets use them it's basically just to prevent it falling off.. Also hydraulic spanners also known as hi torque wrenches have nothing to hold a socket on the anvil so you use a pin and oring
Hey Bzueg, what’s the best T25 for using with my JDM Makita? Vessels are very disappointing with the slop. I love Makita Gold T25, but want a slim 3-4 inch T25
I would assume that the pin system is only good to "semi-permanently" affix the socket into the wrench (good if you only want to use 1 socket frequently?) or is a hold over for people who still use vintage tools where pin retention is still used in which case it might be an interesting to look at into pneumatic torque guns and lo behold a quick search of pneumatic torque guns they still use the pin style retention system as ball ditents arent actually useful for their usecase
As far i as i know its saftey feature, i guess in industrial aplication when you not changing sockets constantly is valid to use pins, so you dont get hit with them at 2k rpm in the face :) Ball detent tend to bind sockets on impacts and pins are annoying to use so everyone just stick them on guns and hope for the best....
Battery impacts are VERY slow in comparison to pneumatics, I've got small 3/8 & 1/2 drive impact wrenches that turn 9500-11000rpm. Even full size 1/2" guns will be 5-7k rpm.
I think the tolerances for Japanese sockets are smaller than everyone else, which is why sockets always fit better….minutely bigger where socket meets anvil.
Precision is both tuned intentionally and unintentionally, so fitment between brands will be rather unintentional because most brands don't care about if their products work good nor bad together with other brands. From a consumer aspect you just have to try for yourself and see what suits you. Some like this, others like that... I get that a 1/2" socket is a standard, but brand A would like X amount of play and brand B may not even care about precision. You have to understand that you both need precision at the male *_and_* female side of the aspect, and the only viable way of measuring precision is between prducts from the same company that they claim should work together. If there's lots of slop between a socket from company X and a ratchet from company Y that doesn't really come as a surprise to me. If the fit is good then good but if it's sloppy then tough luck. I get that some would want to use a certain socket from brand X together with their favorite ratchet from brand Y, but just keep your expectations low because there's no guarantee that will be a good match nor is it something you should expect simply because companies don't care much about how the other companies make their shit.
We are using the pin retention, this is mandatory for us. We are working on turbines and generators. Any foreign material left inside the machine after the maintenance can cause millions of dollars of damages. It happened before where a socket fall off in a place that is very hard/impossible to reach, hence the mandatory requirement for us to use the pin retention.
One time a guy dropped a socket while working on a Titan II nuclear missile and almost destroyed the state of Arkansas.
The level of details we are watching and talking about is actually crazy. But, we alle love snappy tools 😅
Once you have all the snappys you start getting picky lol
Could you add Hazet und Stahlwille in a future comparison? TIA
The pin and o-ring is a Japanese industrial standard they need to follow when using sockets on pneumatic and electric drives, it’s a safety feature to ensure the sockets don’t fly off and hurt someone. They also need to tether their hand tools to their belts when on ladders and scaffolding, you’ll see their hammers and other hand tools having lanyard holes a lot. That Proto Black Hawk ratchet is a Tone rebrand, Tone does have a good amount of their ratchets made in Taiwan.
Great vid. Nice job of the clear-up on the Wera at the beginning.
Steel erector from the UK,we use pin and rubber on all socket and rattler guns to keep the socket on at hight.
The cross pin retention is required in many Asian countries. I had a neighbor that moved from Japan to the US and he was absolutely baffled by the hog ring style socket retention. He insisted the socket would fly off without cross pin retention.
to be fair, that happened to me 2 times.... in 20+ years
The half bore in these sockets is actually for a pin detent, not a ball detent. The pin detent is not that common, but it exists. You have to use a small screwdriver to change your sockets, so it’s only useful when you want to permanently put a socket on. My father has an old Bosch impact with that o ring and pin fixiation. I think this is a relic from the past.
Japan has different standards for 'impact socket retention'. These standards do not apply in the US/Europe.
Interesting video. One of the fitment considerations is the ball and the ball holding groove. Shape, size, and design all play a factor. For example, my Koken sockets will not lock onto some cheaper quick release ratchets. Almost any socket will have very little play on a Wright ratchet because of how much the ball on the anvil protrudes and it has high spring tension. Originally their sockets didn't even have ball holding grooves. Just a couple factors to consider as you possibly extend your testing as you get in more product I really enjoy this kind of stuff and have enjoyed your channel for a while. I'd like to see more of the German ratchets. In my tinkering with this, the Hazet has had rock solid fitment almost as good as Koken. Their quick release HP ratchets do seam to have slightly more play in them though.
we use the cross bore and pin on heavy duty applications. mainly 3/4 inch and larger impact wrenches which dont have a ball detent mostly
The cross-bore and pin is VERY common on 1" drive sockets. I have never seen it personally on a 3/8" drive.
In Japan all impact wrenches and sockets use this system. From 1/4 and up.
Thanks for the quick video. I was looking at the last videos comment section and was thinking the same thing. 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
Ko-ken Z-EAL sockets are the best because of there patented detent in the socket. It's tapered to push play out.
My main use of the pin and o ring is for work at height industries. To prevent falling object incidents. Typically on construction, offshore and marine use.
Many brands like Gedore use the pin lock style for their larger impact sockets and extension drives. My 1974 1inch drive imact sockets use the pin lock.
Yup, he can google: "ring and pin for impact nut"
Then he'll see it 👍
Facom ratchets are often made by USAG in Italy. They're also sold under the Würth brand.
Love my Japanese tools. Koken, Nepros, Tone, Anex, Vessel etc. Never been dissatisfied with any of their products. Have multiple Koken Ratchets, they are my go to.
I can imagine many situations where a socket is ideal BUT dropping a socket inside something would be a massive problem. I suspect that cross-drilled hole, with a cross pin and O-ring cold make dropping a socket almost impossible. perhaps this is the application for it.
I like this level of attention to detail, but I think how the socket fits on a bolt is much more important than how it fits onto the ratchet.
Hey Bzeug. I am the lead engineer for an industrial tool supplier in the United states. We supply everything from hand tools, to power tools, to extremely precise aerospace grade electronically controlled tools. We also supply custom sockets, torque tools, and countless other assembly tool related solutions. I would be more than happy to talk with you about all the different products and designs that are out there and answer any questions you may have about tools in general. This is in now way an attempt at promotion. I just like tools!
On production lines they use the pin as the socket never gets swapped as each "station" is for a specific task. Very interesting with the placement of the ball, I too always lined up the hole with the ball. Tested it and it does make the socket fit tighter. Think it goes to show that unless you really pay attention to it, it does not really matter.
The explosion in 1980 at Damascus Titan missile in Arkansas was initiated by the Air Force tech not reading the safety bulletin about securing a socket to the ratchet. using the cross bore. The socket fell off to the bottom of the missle silo, punching a hole int he missle releasing toxic and flammable gases
Wow! Ok, THIS is why they make cross bore socket retention! encyclopediaofarkansas.net/entries/titan-ii-missile-explosion-2543/#:~:text=The%20Titan%20II%20Launch%20Complex,duct%20on%20September%2019%2C%201980.
I would like to see Kijen go against its sister plant Nepros. I suspect Nepros will come out the winter. The quality they put into their tools is just four notches above what even Snap On does. However I place Koken ratchets far better than snap-on due to the near no back drag. Smooth as silk..
The cross pin feature is good for big heavy industrial 3/4 sockets and above where you might be pushing a long ratchet (with 2 hands and another person holding the socket side onto the bolt) and you have a higher chance of deviating the pushing or pulling forces in the z direction. Direction that could pop the socket out. But for smaller ratchet its probably for use in factories where the workers are doing bolts in repetition and they rarely had to change socket size.
Just pined my 1 3/8” 3/4” drive socket on a couple days ago. 3/4” and 1” sockets super common when the sockets get that big and heavy and you are doing stuff like replacing and torquing 32 1” bolts upside down in a boom lift pedestal. The last thing you need is to worry about the damn socket falling off especially if you are under it or even your helper is under it.
Likewise had always thought and done the same as you. I can only assume the fixed-to-anvil sockets are for industrial use (as I'd seen them described in Ko-ken's industrial catalog), where you don't want employees changing sockets anyway (one fitting-type to a single assembly station), but sure, I guess I could also imagine it in aerospace? Curious to see what comments are left, and if you make yet another follow-up on the topic.
That Blackhawk ratchet looks very much like something from TONE, IIRC??
great video, thank you! 😊 Do you have Hazet HiPer ratchet, because I would like to see comparision with KoKen?
Love all your videos. My Koken and Stahlwille are my favorites ratchets. They seem to have a “soul” of some sort, lol. Still use my Tekton and USA Craftsman ratchets, but they are pretty sloppy. Starting to move them from the workshop to car kits and such.
The few Koken tools I've bought I've been extremely impressed with the fit and finish. Definitely plan on getting more.
Btw can you do a comparison video on different brands wobble fix extension bars? I know you have some Wera ones
Hi, great content as usual. Could you tell me what the little socket set you s on the right, looks like a tidy bit of kit. Cheers 🇬🇧
Pin is used on bigger 3/4 an 1 inch stuff but I have a set of tone 3/8 impact that have a pin a oring on every socket.
I've been wanting a Koken ratchet for so long also Nepros
Buy all possible variations of koken z-eal ratchets and you won't be disappointed 😊
Nepros are too good looking to be used tho :) 😊
I have a 1/2" nepros but it doesnt hold sockets very well. I prefer koken or snapon ratchets
Started with nepros and ended up with koken. Nepros got sloppy after a year of abuse. The koken has been rock solid for over a year now.
@@privateunknown9440 ok thx :) I'm going for the Koken I think
@@picnicsinspace198smart choice
I love my Koken and Williams even though koken has no qc issues on mine sockets and ratchets
I use the pin when i use my 1000Nm impact driver when i work on hight 👍
There's only one thing I don't like about my new Tone ratchet. Is the quick release function on a you have to press it very hard and almost countersink it before it will release the socket or extension bar you have on it. Outside of that it's a very good ratchet but it does take a little extra time to switch out sockets. A problem I've never come across with on my Koken ratchets. However I do want to get one of these Wera Cyclops ratchets. I've been looking at them for over a year now and just haven't gone ahead and bought one I do like the way that the head spins all the way around earn it. However I don't like to play between the socket and the bolt that you just exposed from it
As a heavy duesel mechanic japanese imoact sockets largely use those locking pins and also impact sockets use them it's basically just to prevent it falling off..
Also hydraulic spanners also known as hi torque wrenches have nothing to hold a socket on the anvil so you use a pin and oring
Cross bore is used in automatic nutrunner in industry ( diffirent locking system , by pin, ) safety rule
Hey Bzueg, what’s the best T25 for using with my JDM Makita? Vessels are very disappointing with the slop. I love Makita Gold T25, but want a slim 3-4 inch T25
anex
I would assume that the pin system is only good to "semi-permanently" affix the socket into the wrench (good if you only want to use 1 socket frequently?) or is a hold over for people who still use vintage tools where pin retention is still used in which case it might be an interesting to look at into pneumatic torque guns
and lo behold a quick search of pneumatic torque guns they still use the pin style retention system as ball ditents arent actually useful for their usecase
Cross bar is most useful for 1/2 and 3/4 impacts.
I've been using ko-ken for over 20 years, they have been nothing short of exemplary.
I really wish they made spanners.
I thought everyone knew 😂
I think pin and o ring is just the old school way, have a look at the Impact Wrench GDS 18V-300
What are the best ones for the Wera wrench?
Sir, have you seen the Vessel 900ALWC bit holder handle?
That Blackhawk ratchet sure looks another like a tone .
All Japanese Makita impact wrenches use the through hole anvils.
Great video!...thank you!
As far i as i know its saftey feature, i guess in industrial aplication when you not changing sockets constantly is valid to use pins, so you dont get hit with them at 2k rpm in the face :)
Ball detent tend to bind sockets on impacts and pins are annoying to use so everyone just stick them on guns and hope for the best....
Battery impacts are VERY slow in comparison to pneumatics, I've got small 3/8 & 1/2 drive impact wrenches that turn 9500-11000rpm. Even full size 1/2" guns will be 5-7k rpm.
I think the tolerances for Japanese sockets are smaller than everyone else, which is why sockets always fit better….minutely bigger where socket meets anvil.
Does the fit youre going over here really matter? I don't think it does.
Taiwan make alot of the European companies tools to European spec but its cheaper to be made there.
Precision is both tuned intentionally and unintentionally, so fitment between brands will be rather unintentional because most brands don't care about if their products work good nor bad together with other brands. From a consumer aspect you just have to try for yourself and see what suits you. Some like this, others like that...
I get that a 1/2" socket is a standard, but brand A would like X amount of play and brand B may not even care about precision. You have to understand that you both need precision at the male *_and_* female side of the aspect, and the only viable way of measuring precision is between prducts from the same company that they claim should work together. If there's lots of slop between a socket from company X and a ratchet from company Y that doesn't really come as a surprise to me. If the fit is good then good but if it's sloppy then tough luck.
I get that some would want to use a certain socket from brand X together with their favorite ratchet from brand Y, but just keep your expectations low because there's no guarantee that will be a good match nor is it something you should expect simply because companies don't care much about how the other companies make their shit.
No snap on?
You don't need a Japaness ratchet to not have much slack. My zyklop has huge slack compered to my Gearwrench rachets.
The Blackhawk looks like a rebranded Tone ratchet.
Ironworkers use it so you don’t drop sockets
Wera❤❤❤
The play in the ratchet is no good.. why are we just skipping that
Tone are made in taiwan😊
100% people working at the top of missile silo's don't drop your tools lol
0:20.. and, has zero effect on the ability to break a bolt or nut...
Snap on are the best not even close
What makes Snap-On better than, for example, Koken, Stahlwille or Hazet in your opinion?
It would be nice if he didn't speak like a drunk. 1.25% speed for the win.