Thank you for this, you've put into words how I've felt since I played this in 2013. Almost 8 years later and I'm still bitter about what they did with Penelope
I agree, sanzaru definitely made a mess of Penelope’s character. But I should remind you that in the end of thieves in time, Penelope broke out of Europe’s highest security prison, not caught, and sending Bentley postcards. So she may still have feelings for Bentley. I’ve seen my share of fallen friends and normally they end up returning later on. She has a good chance as any to return. Also given how she built LeParadox’s time machine, the one that sent Sly to Egypt, she may be the one to help rescue sly, once she comes to her senses.
@@0calliestar0 Well there are moments in stories when friends fight one another. Batman fought Superman, Ironman fought captain America, knuckles fought sonic. It could easily be one of those moments.
Penelope betraying the Cooper Gang for money makes even less sense when you remember that Sly left the entirety of the Cooper fortune for the rest of the gang at the end of Sly 3. Yeah it had to be split between 6 people but that’s still more money than she could ever want or need.
The saddest part is that when I looked at the early concept designs of the antagonists, there was no Penelope. Leading to think that she wasn't even supposed to appear as a villain in the game. The villain in the medieval part was initially supposed to be a brand new character.
True, but the good thing about knowing that is that it means that she was never originally meant to be bad and that the Penelope in Sly 3 was genuinely good, which meant that she had a good side to her from the beginning. It’s like suckerpunch never intended for her to be bad at the beginning.
12:50 And also the twist makes even less sense, because in Sly 3's ending Sly gave up his fortune to his gang as he said during his Character Growth moments in Chapter 6 He sees his teammates as more than just "a means to an end" Sly see them as Family and trust them to have his family's fortune as he found something better which is Carmelita's Love. Which Sly said in the Opening cinematic to the final chapter that he was inspired by Bentley & Penelope's love that made him realized that he was a coward who never took the next step to be with Carmelita And since it's an accumulated wealth build up for centuries in 1300 B.C. So That's gotta be like Beyond Trillions upon Trillions of money that Bentley & Penelope could ever want or need! The Sanzaru writers clearly didn't thought this plot twist through all the way and it was just for cheap "shock value" just to make a poor man's attempt at recreating The same type of Constable Neyla plot twist from Sly 2, done worst.
Honestly Penelope’s betrayal is the biggest misstep in the story I’d prefer if she was a double agent for us, or abducted by le paradox and forced to build his Time Machine and sir Raleigh returned as the black knight.
Stumbled on this now as I'm revisiting the Sly games, and thank you for reminding me why I love Penelope's character so much. I remember being excited to see her back with the gang when Thieves in Time was coming out, and seeing her become a cartoon villain for no reason was incredibly frustrating - especially given she was the only female member of the Cooper Gang.
I actually think there could have been a way for Penelope to be a villain and still have it work for her character. Le Paradox was only able to invent his time machine because Penelope helped him do it. But imagine if it went this way instead. Le Paradox was getting frustrated at the fact that he couldn't figure out time travel, so he uses his sources to find someone who could. He discovers that the son of his old rival has his own team, and learns that Bentley was able to invent time travel. So he plans to abduct Bentley and force him to build a time machine. However, Penelope finds out about his plans first and is obviously scared for Bentley's life. So she confronts Le Paradox and makes a deal with him. She agrees to help him build the time machine in exchange for Le Paradox leaving Bentley alone. Truthfully, this version of her reasoning isn't perfect, but I think it works way better than what we actually got, and this way, we could get a villain redemption arc with her and maybe she could have even helped in the ending by sabotaging Le Paradox's blimp.
Admittedly, I have yet to watch this video but considering the subject matter I would like to quickly share my thoughts as to how they could’ve fixed Penelope’s story arc within Thieves in Time. So in my opinion, there are 2 ways that they could’ve handled this differently: Option A - Better Pacing! One of the biggest complaints I have with this story arc is how Penelope just ups and vanishes near the beginning of the game for no apparent reason and then doesn’t reappear again until 3 episodes later with almost little to no mention of her prior to episode 4. I feel like if the writers REALLY wanted to sell the idea of Penelope becoming a villain in the story, perhaps they could’ve given her additional screen time to better explain her motives for wanting to betray the Cooper Gang. Her character transition comes out of nowhere and I find it hard to believe that the guy that she wants to kill the most…is also the same guy that she literally called her hero in Sly 3? Like what?! 😂 Option B - Have Penelope Remain a Member of the Cooper Gang and Appear as a Suitable Background Character! I feel like if the writers went in an entirely different direction and instead made Penelope a background character with a relatively smaller but similar role that she had in Sly 3, perhaps there wouldn’t have been too much outrage about her character in Thieves in Time? I mean, yeah she would’ve had a smaller role but *at least* they wouldn’t have ruined her character entirely lol. Let me know what you think…
I wanted Bently and Penelope together! T_T although i am younger than when the series was launched. Sly 2 and 3 have been my most favourite and give alot of Nostalgia. I didn't play Sly 4 cause I was happy with the ending on 3 than 4 haha
HUGE thanks for this! Felt this way for so long and I hate how they treated Penelope's character in sly 4 especially cause of not only how loyal she is to sly and the whole team but with Bentley and I guess sanzaru thought they did a villain twist in the last game with her and it worked so they figured they'd try again andddd it just did not work. Really hope if we ever get sly 5 she gets a redemption arc and sides with the gang again in the quest to find sly.
@@edmartinez925 yet the cooper gang showed that they were willing to trust Panda King, who took part in killing Sly’s dad, to be in the same room with them after ruining him. You’d be surprised how easy it is for fictional characters to regain trust for one another even after a betrayal.
@@TylerTheShepherd I've experienced traitors in real life. Back in middle school I had a friend who for no reason just teased me constantly like saying I suck. It really hurt me and I felt betrayed. We went separate ways by the time we started high school. Never forgave him ever since.
@@edmartinez925 sorry to hear that but that’s not really a traitor, that sounds more like a jerk. I don’t know the whole story about you guys, how close you were as friends, or whether or not you wished that you want to forgive your friend. But When it comes to friends, there’s always a moment where they have a fight. Some would indeed end it, but many times they end up reconciling. Most fictional series tend to promote friendship and forgiveness, some more discreetly than others, because it’s difficult in real life. The honorable cooper gang who basically prides themselves of friendship they consider themselves a family while most villains mock them for being sentimental and empathetic. So if Penelope does ends up regretting her actions and wants to come back, their going to end up taking her back because that’s the kind of characters they are.
But with a huge difference, Penelope was more honest in her betrayal than Neyla. Besides masquerading as a menacing knight, there was no deception in her act and she really did love Bentley.
Playing Thieves in Time the first time, I was hoping against hope that the 'twist' would be something else. I crossed my fingers and prayed "Please, please let this be a double fakeout. You can't seriously do this character assassination with a twist this fucking obvious." But alas, it was so. I could write a whole college thesis on why I hate Thieves in Time's story, with this moment being the focal point, but I'll leave it with this. I find it funny that Penelope suddenly hates Sly because he's a "no-good thief", when she originally met Bentley in a chatroom on fucking THIEFNET!
Fun Fact: Penelope wasn't supposed to be a villain in Sly 4. It was supposed to be a Gearheaded Mole. But instead they used Penelope, all just for the sake of a plot twist.
Right. They should've gone with the mole. In my _Sly Cooper_ fanfiction universe, he's also Dutch and his name is Wimhof, plus he's a robotics expert who manages to capture, brainwash, and indirectly break Penelope (who's shocked and devastated at her actions under that control before Bentley and the Guru free her and rendered unplayable for the next few missions in my headcanon, along with the Panda King who comforts her). As for his backstory, I imagine Wimhof was an excellent student at the Netherlands' famous international robotics academy before his expulsion (I'm still working out the reason why), which caused him to turn to a life of crime to get revenge (the headmaster being his first victim) and end up on a ton of Most Wanted lists including Interpol's and his home country's. The Cooper Gang would be tracking down his Interpol file to do some research on him, which would piece together their Black Knight puzzle. Then to defeat Wimhof in his huge Black Knight suit, Penelope and the Panda King would hijack a large prototype and land the final blows. As for where Wimhof ends up after he's in jail, I don't know yet. But regardless, Sanzaru still should've used the mole as the villain of the chapter.
@@jjtheraccoon61 Sounds interesting. Also why not make him a rival of Penelope? A robotics expert who has always been living under Penelope's shadow. Jealous of her success in the fields of engineering. Maybe they both attended the academy together. Maybe even as partners and friends. While secretly harboring jealousy. It could make his desire to capture and brainwash her more personal. I'm just spitballing here.
Despite the scene of Bentley overcoming his fears and doubts (Clockwerk representing what he lost due to the accident during Sly 2, and the ineptitudes which plagued him as a result: "COOPER! You will NEVER be rid of me!") being my favorite in the series, this is a perfect analysis of the disconnect between Sly 3 Penelope and... the person left in Sly 4. Not to mention hilarious-- your editing is GREAT. Cuts mid-sentence are gold lol. Bentley has always been my favorite character, and I always had the same connection with him you did with Penelope. Honestly, when he returned to fight her, I was ecstatic. A cheesy sequence, but he stood up to the person he thought loved him and came out on top, for himself and his friends. That little bit of the whole debacle has always resounded with me and demonstrated Bentley's growth over the years. So while it sucks to lose Penel in such a clunky, absurd way, at least Best Turtle Boi became stronger for it. Even if the lesson wasn't exactly deep or well-explored. I still remember when he first joined Sly and Murray in the field, then handed Jean Bison his ass on a platter with no weapons... That said, even if one were to give Penel the benefit of the doubt and insist she was always duplicitous, thanks to her Black Baron persona, it still doesn't add up. What would she really have experienced or thought that would have set her on the path to aligning with Le Paradox-- literally altering history-- and getting money?? True, we aren't given much of her early bio, so we don't know what may have happened to trigger such a shift, or incentivize her to wear a mask. Why play the intimate long game, only to turn on a dime FOR the dime? She wouldn't even have needed Bentley to assist her to make millions. Would've been fun had she been the actual final antagonist of Thieves in Time with this notion, albeit with much more characterization... or, y'know, just actually treated like a character to begin with. Thanks for the video and making it fun! Love seeing the Sly series still getting attention almost two decades after its release.
Indeed there is a disconnection between the Penelope’s between Sly 3 and 4. It’s like she became a completely different character. Then later on in the game it revealed that LeParadox also has a hypnotist, Miss Decibel, working for him as well. Ever since he was arrested, LeParadox vowed to wipe the Cooper name from history and Penelope had the answer to his prayers. There was no way he was going to let her go. I know it’s a crazy theory but personality changes are usually heavy indications that their minds were tampered with.
I agree that Penelope was done a SERIOUS injustice by Thieves in Time. I mean, I’m one of those fans who thinks the idea had merit, but man, oh man, was the execution way off! Not does it just happen with no real build-up, but it doesn’t really add anything of substance to the overall story; it just... happens. Maybe Sanzaru was planning to expand on this in the planned Sly 5, but since that’s been shelved indefinitely, we may never know what they had planned, if indeed there was anything planned...
I've never played Sly 4 -- and after watching what Sanzaru did with Penelope's character, I know I certainly don't plan to. I love the sweet, caring, intelligent Penelope we got back in Sly 3! So I just pretend Sly 4 doesn't exist and that the story ended with the third game. Everyone gets their happy endings. Sly retires to be with Carmelita (even though he had to fake amnesia to do so), Bentley got to be with Penelope, Murray got to finish his training with the Guru and go racing with the van.... Seriously -- why couldn't the series end with THAT?! It might've ended on a bittersweet note, but I would've been FAR happier with that than what we got with Sly 4.
Same. It's bad enough that the cooper gang had to deal with one female traitor (who turned out to be a manipulative double crossing liar) and with Penelope becoming from being a kind sweet girl to a jealous greedy selfish brat who is being used by the main villain of Sly 4, that's just too much for the cooper gang to handle.
@@edmartinez925 That’s exactly how I feel about Toy Story 4, believe it or not. As a kid, I love how the trilogy ended the way it did - but nine years later, some punk just had to wreck it all by ruining the characters and giving all sorts of terrible messages to younger audiences. (There’s a video series by GamingMagic13 that helps explain all of that and why it’s such a disaster.)
I think what made the twist worse for me was how the game tried to be ''meta'' about it. Like, it's self aware that Penelope turning into a villain doesn't make sense, so, they had Bentley roast her for that, like saying, ''Wow... and here I thought you were smart.'' But what the writers seem to forget is that pointing out your problems doesn't make them go away, and in fact, makes them worse. It's also not funny either, especially since the writers are basically making the audience go like, ''Yeah. And? Aren't you gonna fix that problem?''
I really think that if they wanted to keep Penelope as the villain in the medieval world, they should’ve just have her mind controlled by mrs. Decibel which leads to the cooper gang freeing her from the mind control and have her join them for the rest of the game. It would’ve set up mrs decibel and it wouldn’t have ruined Penelope and kept her character in tact plus Penelope could’ve helped out in decibels boss fight to get revenge or something. In my opinion, that option was the best one they could’ve taken if they wanted her as an antagonist in the game and it’s weird that they didn’t take it Also since sly 4 was my first sly game and I played it as a child, I was said dumb kid that was shocked by the reveal and wanted to beat up Penelope because Bentley was my favorite character (and still is) In the series but when I played sly 3 on the sly collection a year later after 4, I then thought why they chose to have Penelope as a villain in the way they did
I agree, if there was some level of Penelope being tricked or not knowing what she was really doing as a villain, then the Cooper gang shows her the truth and she gets to redeem herself, I think it would’ve been a lot better. Also it’s okay if you did get tricked, I just remember feeling super intelligent when I figured out the twist as a kid lol
@@0calliestar0 Yeah or instead of Bentley just giving her the whole "Once you've done your job, your boss is going to throw you in the garage" spiel, he tries to warn her that once Le Paradox succeeds in rewriting history, it will be the end of the Cooper Gang's very existence, including hers. Thus, betraying the Gang and trying to unlock Bentley's "potential" is utterly pointless. Because if it weren't for the Cooper Clan, there would be no Sly Cooper. No Coopers, no Sly. No Sly, no Gang. No Gang, no Bentley. No Bentley, NO PENELOPE.
This is a great video, and I agree with pretty much everything you said here. Honestly, Sly 4 is good as a game, but Sanzaru's writing was not up to par whatsoever. When you mention the fact that Bentley's arc felt unfulfilling and bare, it reminded me of Murray's character arc in the episode prior. Murray manages to train Bob back up from nothing, and then feels useless to the team when the only thing against him was that he couldn't climb a vertical wall of ice. It led into a whole thing about making mistakes and moving past them, but Murray never actually made a single mistake, so it doesn't make sense. The writers wanted things to happen to the gang to try and squeeze out arcs and plot twists, but didn't substantiate them with anything meaningful. It really upset me how full of holes everything with Penelope is: "Sly is holding you back" How? He's been out of the picture since Sly 3, and it's just been Bentley and Penelope together working on the time machine. In fact, the only thing that brought Sly back into Bentley's life at all was Penelope and her actions, which makes this rationale make even LESS sense. "The most valuable thing he ever stole is your potential." They both literally made the pinnacle of technology in the form of a time machine. He has more than reached his potential. "We could've made millions in weapon design" First off, Weapon design doesn't fit her character, and the two would likely instead focus on humanitarian projects if anything, like water filters or clean energy. Secondly, she literally owned Sly's cane which is the key to the cooper vault, made the new door to the cooper vault, and knows the location. If she wanted money, she could have just made off with that fortune. It was clear they wanted a big shocker but didn't give it any of the time and attention it needed. One thing I noticed in the video was confusion at the inclusion of clockwerk in that one cutscene. It seems clear to me that the idea of the cutscene is Bentley breaking through his insecurities, and Clockwerk is there because he's the one who paralyzed Bentley, confining him to the wheelchair. Breaking through Clockwerk in that cutscene was intended to be him overcoming his insecurities around his paraplegic status which were explored a bit in Sly 3. The only problem is that they're never brought up at all in Sly 4, so idk why they're referencing it there.
If I were in charge of writing the TIT script, in addition to good writing, here’s how penelope’s inclusion should’ve gone. She would’ve been kidnapped by le paradox because he knew she held on to the blueprints to Bentley’s time machine and miss decibel would try to hypnotize her, but it doesn’t effect Penelope because she’s too smart to fall for that. So le paradox enlists in the help of Sir Raleigh the frog, who is a better choice for medieval England’s villain, who holds Penelope hostage and threatens/blackmails her into building Raleigh’s mech and robot army, or else her friends would be hurt or worse, starting with Bentley. With no choice, Penelope complied with Raleigh’s demands. But she purposely made some “mistakes and flaws” in them, like making some weak points on the giant mech suit for the boss battle, unknown to Raleigh, but not to sly. Whenever Raleigh was busy, Penelope would try to send help messages to Bentley and the gang, but with them traveling through different timelines, and the messages only reaching the emails in present day which dimitri would be too busy to check on, Penelope was left to fend for herself. When Bentley discovered that Raleigh was the black knight and holding Penelope hostage, he vowed to get back at him and rescue her. During operation FROG trap, Bentley and Raleigh duke it out in a mech battle, only for Raleigh to get back up and knock Bentley down! Before he could deliver the final blow, Penelope swoops in to the rescue! She managed to escape from the workshop and she and Raleigh engage in a sword fight. After the battle and Raleigh is defeated, Penelope helps Bentley back onto his wheelchair and hugs him tight, tears running down her face as she apologizes to the gang for what happened and blames herself for everything that’s happened. Bentley calms her down and tells her that the only one to blame is le paradox. After that, Penelope rejoins the gang for the rest of the game, she and Bentley are still together and becomes a playable character on the field and in missions. (She even has some interactions with Carmelita, the two of them becoming gal pals)
I fell the same on what they did to Penelope, I hope some day when a Sly 5 game came out, she can return to the gang in some redeemable arc or maybe a retcon.
What they did to Penelope in Sly Cooper Thieves in Time I think it's stupid. Neyla is fine because we all didn't see that coming but here they turned the girl Bentley will get after saving her into a backstabber which Sanzaru ruined the lore. Either they never or did little research into Penelope in Sly 3. And the main antagonist Le Paradox he's the most hated Sly Cooper villain because he didn't have much of a reason to hate Sly and instead cause so many problems including having Penelope on his side which he indirectly destroyed Bentley's relationship with Penelope.
Sly 2's chapter 4 area freaked me out as a kid. In the earlier chapters, I didn't feel very safe playing as Bentley, but it was just a concern about his fragility. I could avoid most things with Sly's mobility, and brute force through things with Murray's brawn. But to rob all you of the more athletic characters, and leave you with Bentley alone really made the chapter feel scary and isolating, at a depressing prison. Plus Contessa's whole hypnotism and mind-control deal is a personal fear of mine. I'm sure that even if it was a prison block on an isolated island, without a "spooky" theme, it would still creep everyone out. I eventually pushed through and got to chapter 5, and even though it was more spookiness, I was fine because it was just the usual Scooby-Doo haunted house type of spookiness.
I recently looked into previous sanzaru games in order to get a better understanding of their game developing style. Two of their games “Secret agent Clank” and “Sonic Boom Shattered Crystal” both featured mind controlled protagonists, Ratchet from SAC by Clunk and Shadow and Amy in SBSC by Lyric. It’s starting to sound like the Penelope being brainwashed by Decibel theory may be what sanzaru was actually going for.
it would have made a lot more sense if Penelope was forced to work for Le Paradox against her will, even go as far as to have Miss Decibel hypnotize her and forcibly drug her with the spice from Sly 2 since the spice makes you both angry and susceptible to hypnosis. Arpeggio's whole plan was to drug Paris and hypnotize it into a hate frenzy to power Clockwerks body so Arpeggio could achieve immortality. the boss fight itself was great, though that one change I said could've made the whole thing perfect. plus in the second phase of the fight, when Bentley confronts Penelope, her love for him causes her to resist the hypnosis and her Sly 3 personality resurfaces. but Le paradox planned for that and activated a failsafe in her Black Knight Mech, sealing her inside and locking out her controls so that the mech runs on auto-pilot and is programmed to not stop until the cooper gang is dead. so Bentley is forced to fight Penelope until the Mech is destroyed and she's knocked unconscious. Sly and the others pull her out of the wreckage, and when Penelope comes to, she's back to normal and tearfully apologizes to them for the things she said and did, blaming herself for everything that's happened, she wasn't in control of her actions but she was still aware of it all. Bentley and the Cooper gang forgive her and tell her that the only one to blame is Le Paradox. after that, Penelope rejoins the gang for the rest of the game and she and Bentley are still together.
That sounds like it could really improve her role in the game! I also think it would be interesting to give Penelope her own mini character arc where she learns that she cares more about Bentley and the Cooper gang than growing her own power, and that change could accomplish that.
I think something that would work too is if she was still herself had less evil reasons for hiding her identity from her Bently. Maybe Leparadox pretended to be an investor in Bentley’s inventions and so Penelope showed him the blueprints for the time machine. After she realized what she did, she felt guilty and worried Bently would hate her, so she tried to fix what she did on her own by going undercover as the Black Knight and tried to sabotage Leparadox’s plans. In the Middle Ages she tries to secretly help the Cooper gang without revealing her identity. But Le Paradox is onto her, so she has to keep following his orders and fight her friends just to keep her secret. In the end the truth is revealed and Bently forgives her and she learns she can be open with Bently and whatever struggles she has her friends will help her.
My favorite character is Bentley with Penelope being a close second. You perfectly explained why this twist doesn't work. I do need to mention that the "arc" Bentley goes through is also supposed to tie into confidence. Which was his arc throughout Sly 2 especially in chapter 4. As he needs to break Sly and Murray out of a very high security prison. All by himself. Which he does and by the end he becomes more confident and both Sly and Murray show him more respect. I feel like this could work if say Penelope was revealed as the black knight much earlier and you had to go on most of the chapter without him. Maybe have Carmelita try to take charge, but of course while she is a great inspector and was able to lead in Sly 3. This doesn't translate into taking down Penelope. This would help set up Carmelita realizing the whole working on different sides of the law and respecting the cooper gang more (which the game tries to do, but doesn't do enough to really show it). Throughout the chapter I would put in small hints such as guards humming classical music or Penelope's ears being hidden. Then at the boss fight after all is said and done ear buds fall out of her ears. Revealing that the real twist of the chapter was Miss Decibel hypnotizing Penelope. Also how her robots look different in style to her inventions in 3. This would hint at Miss Decibel on top of making you hate her and Le Paradoux. You could maybe even add in a reference to the spice in Sly 2 explaining her aggression (Le Paradoux has connections to various criminals and lives in paris. So that could explain how he got his hands on the stuff) and have Penelope be an ally in the next chapter. Maybe even in the next chapter Bentley makes a lot less jokes and is far more serious as he feels this is even more personal due to the whole situation. You can especially show this in his scenes with Salim where Salim is complaining while Bentley is taking none of it because he wants Miss Decibel down. Maybe an arc about emotions taking the better of him or something. You do have multiple routes to really go if this one change was made.
Penelope was a simp for sly in the 3rd game, now she’s saying he’s essentially a dishonest, no-good, lying thief? I feel like she’s tryna cosplay as Carmelita rn man, we don’t need another lady cop- I genuinely hope that if and when they create a 5th game in the series considering the hinting and large cliffhanger in Sly 4, they at LEAST try and bring the old Penelope back in some way- maybe SHE was brainwashed or something, but in this game she’s just a sad plot device-
Bentley won't join her on the dark side because of Sly and the gang. She blames Sly for Bentley's morality. She and Ventley could do anything but for Bentley's conscience
There are a few theories. One would be: the Contessa decided to hypnotize Penelope to be evil just to spite the Cooper Gang for putting her in prison. Le Paradox had Miss Decibel hypnotize her, or Clockwerk’s soul was survived in the remaining clockwerk eye since not all of Clockwerk was destroyed when Carmelita crushed the Hate Chip
Wow this is great you did a fantastic job explaining this issue Penelope was done so dirty and it’s sad especially because she was a great character that we could of seen more of probably Like I like thieves in time (heck it was my first sly cooper game) but man was it a missed opportunity in so many ways
New developers can come in and improve a game series that has been left in the wind, but it is *very* rare that they understand the characters they're *writing* for. This was one of those times where the writing was just plain bad.
Wonderful video, what they did to Penelope was a crime. Penelope had two separate secret identities in two different games. The Black Baron was a really clever twist and Penelope's reason for the identity were good. The Black Knight is the polar opposite. Let's start with the designs. The Black Baron has a nice unique design and don't suspect to be a big twist or reveal. The Black Knight is a mech and thanks to the insignia you pretty much figured out whose in it and what the reveal is going be. The Black Baron has a good backstory. Penelope wanted to test the Cooper Gang and see if they were worth doing by giving them a challenge. She also needed someone to beat the Black Baron, so she could finally retire the identity. The Black Knight was just a way for Penelope to destroy her former friends and get money. The motivation makes no sense and the whole reveal and conflict is a cheap stab at drama. If they honestly wanted to make Penelope a enemy, they could have had the villains kidnap her and have Miss Decibel hynoptize her. Would have made a whole lot more sense and wouldn't have ruined People's character.
@@majormccoy2659 true that would make things a lot easier. But they also wanted to make another game or dlc to go with this game and they also never disproved it either making it possible to used as a reveal in their future works that they weren’t able to do. Which is extremely annoying since they were just a dialogue away from vindicating Penelope. So far the main support for this hypnosis theory is original villain concept art that showed that Penelope was never planned to be an antagonist along with Miss decibel never planned to be a hypnotist, and that we never really get to see Miss decibel display any of her hypnotic abilities in her level that justifies her character redesign to be a hypnotist.
Totally agree, it seemed so out of character for her to end up the way she did in Sly 4, though some of her dialogue in the boss fight did make me chuckle a bit. ^^
Nice video. It really shows how this is a good example of a poorly written corruption arc in fiction. Penelope did nothing in _Sly 3_ hinting at her butchered version's (whom I'll call Peonlpe, the name used by a UA-camr who made a review of _Thieves in Time_ I watched in 2021; I can't remember exactly who but I give this person their due credit) betrayal of the Cooper Gang and any hints that did occur in _Thieves in Time_ were either weak, insufficient, or hard to see. Though I haven't actually played any of the _Sly Cooper_ games (which I would like to do in the future once I get the means to do so), I can feel the anger at having one of their favorite characters ruined for no good reason other than shock value, like Peonlpe's presence in _Thieves in Time_ was, and I wish Sanzaru had studied up more on the stories of the previous three games (I consider the story to have equal importance to the gameplay and visuals in making a good video game, though the gameplay seems to be good in this one and I give Sanzaru credit in that area, some players may lose incentive to continue once this plot twist comes RIGHT OUT OF NOWHERE despite the gameplay aspects). While yes, they were trying to develop Bentley's character, I don't see this as reason enough to derail Penelope's and recycle the arc from _Sly 2_ and _Sly 3_ to do so (they could've also developed Penelope's character as well rather than flanderize her into Peonlpe and make her a carbon copy of the former game's main villain Neyla, whose betrayal was much better written and foreshadowed). _Thieves in Time_ also piles on a mountain of despicable actions and traits onto Peonlpe to make the player hate her even more, which can come off as desperate to make them buy the plot twist. I also think this demonstrates why we shouldn't hold corruption arcs to a lower standard than redemption arcs-they can also be poorly written, and honestly Sanzaru should have gone with the mole as the villain of "Of Mice and Mechs." I hope in the future, _Thieves in Time_ can be decanonized and Sucker Punch can develop a better _Sly 4_ even if they won't do it for years and they're currently focusing on the _Ghost of Tsushima_ franchise. And while they're at it, they should also do a remaster of _Rocket: Robot on Wheels_ (their first-ever game, for the Nintendo 64). Great analysis of Penelope and Peonlpe!
Your right about one thing, Penelope’s reason for going bad isn’t a good one, at least on its own. She could of had those thoughts at some point but didn’t act out because they weren’t good enough reasons to turn on friends, until LeParadox came. LeParadox is a mastermind who convinces others to do his work, a talent he specializes in, which means he probably took those poor reasons and made them sound good. Like a shady salesman type of villain. It’s also possible that he convinced her about other things like honor was a hindrance and that her friends were not as special as she thought. Since he needed her time machine there was no way he was going to let her go.
@@edmartinez925 People assumed that their the same just because it was a betrayal, except the method of Penelope’s betrayal is different from Neyla’s betrayal. Penelope was too straight forward and honest to be a proper betrayal. Neyla deceived and successfully led the gang into a trap while Penelope left and told Bentley them the honest truth which we know is true because we’re hearing it a second time with more clarity after hearing it secretly. As for why she was acting that way, it could also have been the result caused by LeParadox’s elaborate scheme just to make it even easier to manipulate her. Of course we shouldn’t forget he had the hypnotist Miss Decibel at his disposal.
@@edmartinez925 of course, the real reason this Penelope betrayal doesn’t make sense is because Sanzaru didn’t give us the whole story about it, only pieces of it. They were wanting to create a sequel to thieves in time which meant they they intended to fully explain the full story in the sequel, since they made it to where Penelope was the only antagonist to escape police custody at the end of the game.
yea because it was out of the blue. she went from just wanting to prove herself and be a great scientist/engineer to like I WANT MONEYYYYYYYYY like out of the blue then sounds like she feels bad until she meets bently in person then shes like imaa fuck ya up! like it sounds like they were probably debating while writing her character whether to redeem or not but like come on.
the Penelope thing overshadows the few positive things about Thieves In Time. They destroyed the only female member of the Cooper Gang and ripped away Bentley's happy ending from the third game. And for what? So they could do a poor man's recreation of the Neyla twist? What's worse is that it has no impact. The characters show no signs that they give a damn about her disappearance until five minutes before she's found. So it has no impact when Bentley acts all mopey after discovering her secret. also, I hate how the game framed Bentley beating his girlfriend unconscious as a moment of "empowerment" for him. As if he was a sad sack before and just needed a round of domestic violence to boost his confidence back up Thieves In Time had an....uncomfortable approach to its female characters that made me feel gross when playing it. I'm glad it bombed and Sony is ignoring its existence.
I agree, both Penelope and Carmelita were a disappointment in this game. Admittedly, Sly has always been a male dominated franchise, but the messages of friendship and teamwork were universal so it didn’t really matter what gender the characters were, at least to me. But it was annoying to see Carmelita and Penelope reduced to female stereotypes. Penelope was just a crazy ex and Carmelita spent the whole game whining about Sly, as if all of her independence from the past games disappeared. Not to mention her over-sexualized outfit and the multiple missions that involve creepy men harassing her. The original Carmelita would be ashamed lol (Now I’m starting to think about this topic so much I might make a video about it haha)
@@0calliestar0 I hope you do make a video about it because this video was really good. 🙂 The game even treated Miss Decibel like garbage. She was the only female character in the game that wasn't ridiculously sexualized. And the game made sure to constantly remind us how gross, fat, and undesirable she is. And don't even get me started on the lack of female ancestors! Though that was probably a blessing. I'd hate to see what Sanzaru would have done to Henriette Cooper
That last paragraph you've mentioned, I have a feeling that after what Penelope did to the Cooper Gang, especially Bentley, the Cooper Gang are done trusting female characters (excluding Carmelita).
I agreed Sanzaru had really messed up with Penelope. It just doesn't make sense for her to betray the cooper gang after what they've done for her. In Sly 3 she was kidnapped twice, first by a Chinese dragon and then by a group of pirates that Bentley put his own life on the line for her. She would've been a goner had it not been for the cooper gang. Anyways Sanzaru had really messed up her character and I hope, if there's ever a new Sly Cooper game with the original creator Sucker Punch involve, they fix the character.
This. This was the first betrayal of my life... when it comes to fictional media, lmao. The Sly Cooper series was my favorite childhood video game series, and I still annually play it each year and enjoy it, even more so from when I was a kid. I can still remember looking forward to Sly 4 in 2012, asking for it for Christmas, and getting upset when I was told that the game was coming out after December. When I played Sly 4 for the first time and finished it, I was very mixed on it. First off, I wasn't a fan of how the older characters (Sly, Bentley, and Murray, Dimitri, and Penelope, and Carmelita looked) And the characterization of the older characters, particularly Sly. How the game ended with Sly disappearing, and etc. But my biggest problem was Penelope's betrayal. I was a tween when Sly 4 came out, and I was oblivious to the hints in Episode 4 about Penelope's betrayal. It was either because I didn't put much thought into foreshadowing and hints about stuff like that back then, or I was busy debating on my feelings about the game to pay attention to details. When it was revealed that Penelope was The Black Knight, I wasn't initially shocked. For the first few seconds, I was relieved and happy to see that Penelope was okay and thought that there had to be a reasonable explanation for her being The Black Knight, like with The Black Baron. But then, as it became obvious that Penelope had changed for the worse, I felt as betrayed and as hurt as Bentley himself. After I wrapped up the game, I got more angry about how Penelope's character was screwed over. Penelope wasn't ever my favorite or anything, but I always appreciated her as a character. Regardless of Penelope's betrayal and "character development" being not so well handled, it still was the first betrayal in fictional media that stung me. Still to this day 10 years later, it hurts. And no other fictional media betrayal has matched it. And whenever I replay Sly 3 and Penelope shows up, knowing what is to come for Penelope's character, it is painful. Then whenever I replay Sly 4, reliving Penelope's betrayal always my least favorite part. Thanks for validating my feelings on Penelope and her betrayal. Back in 2013, I complained about it two people; my friend and my dad. My friend didn't care. He wasn't really into Penelope's character. My dad simply said "things like that can happen in a game."
Your not the only one who felt betrayed, sly’s voice actor Kevin miller in an interview also stated how betrayed he felt when sanzaru made Penelope go bad. He also stated that all Penelope really needed was a hug.
The problem was execution; her actions in Episode 3 (killing traitorous thugs, cheating etc) show that she has a somewhat ruthless streak. If they'd built it up it would have been a lot less irritating
I agree, while I still wouldn’t have loved it if the writers had used her philosophy of “the ends justify the means” to be her motivation instead of just being power hungry, it would have been more interesting. Maybe they could have played it like Le Paradox tricked her into thinking she was helping the Cooper Gang and this was the only way, then the episode could end with Bentley helping her realize the truth and giving her a redemption arc, which would be interesting.
That ruthless streak was more associated with the Black Baron than her. She got an opportunity to be herself when she helped the Cooper Gang defend their hangar, feeling the obligation to uphold the disguise's reputation no matter the cost as it was subsuming her. In the case this game absolutely must be considered canon (which isn't the case in my mind), I also think it might've been interesting had it been Miss Decibel hypnotizing Penelope to strengthen Le Paradox's control. To further cement Penelope's redemption, I think she would don her old overalls and throw the catsuit in the trash (that could've also maintained this control), and she would use the sword she used to beat LeFwee in their duel, as well as her RC vehicles. I think she also could've helped free Sly after a much more climactic battle against Le Paradox by grabbing him with her RC chopper and yanking him away from the blimp wreckage that ends up in ancient Egypt. Then with the rest of the ancestors, the four active Cooper Gang members (Sly, Bentley, Penelope, and Murray) go back to where the wreckage ends up (recruiting the Guru, Dimitri, and the Panda King beforehand), with Carmelita and her new Interpol partner Constable Roger St. Shepard (a German Shepherd) after them in pursuit. The two parties reluctantly work together again (much less so than previously) to help Slytunkhamen II Cooper, Slaigh MacCooper, Henriette "One-Eyed" Cooper, Thaddeus Winslow Cooper III, Otto van Cooper, and of course Conner (and Jim McSweeney and Dr. M) get their canes back from the members of Le Paradox's gang who have captured them (and have much better backstories that aren't carbon copies of other villains'). Then they face off with Le Paradox again (this time in the future), who has broken out of jail, and as per the _Sly Cooper_ tradition the skunk is killed off. The gang goes their separate ways again. But still, in my fanfiction universe, _Thieves in Time_ is NOT CANON, and Penelope is still the sweet-natured mouse we all know from the third game.
The level design was a dead giveaway for Penelope as well. Same sky color and feel. If I were to remake Sly 4… Penelope would have disappeared because she was kidnapped. We literally already have betrayal from Dr. M. I’d completely rewrite her to you know… her original Sly 3 self 🤷🏿♂️ see, I think the Black Knight should have actually been an old enemy of Penelope. The Cooper tie in was just a means to an end
GOD YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! I agree with almost everything you said here 🙏 Penelope deserved so much better than this and the twist wasn't even good. The only thing I disagree with is not hating Thieves in time, while you're obviously entitled to your opinion and obviously don't care too much about it, I personally think that TiT is an absolute embarrassment to the series, it's story was awful, it's characters we're either flanderized like Murray or absolutely destroyed like Carmelita (that belly dance minigame still makes me sick) and the villans are so ungodly shit, yeah the gameplay is fine, the music is nice and graphics were a pretty decent upgrade but man I hate TiT with a burning passion, I refuse to call this game Sly 4 and Penelope is a perfect showcase of everything wrong with this game.
Thank you for the video I wasn’t even born or too young to play the previous 3 episodes I had no idea about the story and lore Even tho I wasn’t able see through the dumb plot I felt like the twist to be too forced and weird which is why I decided to look up this video thanks 🙏🏻
Even if you wanna explain how she was playing the long con, I still call that character backtracking, and I don't like. Besides, seriously? You thought Bentley would be ok with that, Penelope? He knew Sly all his life; of course he is gonna stick by him! Though I find it interesting how in the "where are they now" segment she is the only one to escape and even travel the world. Please let Sly 5 redeem her.
I’m think they got a little lazy on the writing. Penelope does have a history as a minor villain with the Black Baron that could foreshadow a heel turn in the right circumstances. I don’t hate Sanzaru trying to do more with her character. It just needed better writing. Off the top of my head if Le Paradox was related to Penelope or working with a member of her family that would make the turn more justifiable. As it adds a family aspect Bentley couldn’t relate to as an orphan that challenges his dynamic with Sly and Murray his adoptive family. That makes Penelope a more reluctant villain and adds to the Sly series overall theme of family and legacy. Sanzaru just wanted the cheap twist but didn’t want to work for it.
Sometimes I think maybe Dr. M tried to change Penelope's point of view the same as he did Bently but was more successful with her, so after Kaine Island she believed Dr. M was right and Sly was holding Bently back. But that's just a theory.
I cannot believe Sanzaru games would make a plot twist this stupid, rushed and assassinate Penelope’s character that was perfectly fine in Sly 3. Why have Bentley fight his girlfriend at all, for a stupid plot twist and character growth? His character is already at its peak, why make this choice at all when it does absolutely nothing with his character!? she gave good reasons why she had to betray her friends because she wanted Bentley to see his potential, even though it was completely sloppy and rushed but why have her betray her friends at all when she help them, joined the Cooper Gang and risked her life to save Bentley from Lefree? Why couldn’t they have her and Bentley apologize to one another and she would go with them and help them take down Leparadox and save the rest of the Cooper timeline? Question mark involved, WHY!?😢😱🤬😫 I really like this game despite some of its flaws but this is one thing I cannot forgive the game for and that’s trashing Penelope’s character, the same thing happened to Discord from My Little Pony G4 and it’s plot twist with him pretending to be Grogar and almost got his friends and especially Fluttershy killed still angers me to this day.🤦🏾♂️ I still have hope for the Sly Cooper franchise though, maybe soon they’ll probably be able to fix these issues in Sly 5 next year maybe.
Thank you for this, you've put into words how I've felt since I played this in 2013. Almost 8 years later and I'm still bitter about what they did with Penelope
I agree, sanzaru definitely made a mess of Penelope’s character. But I should remind you that in the end of thieves in time, Penelope broke out of Europe’s highest security prison, not caught, and sending Bentley postcards. So she may still have feelings for Bentley. I’ve seen my share of fallen friends and normally they end up returning later on. She has a good chance as any to return. Also given how she built LeParadox’s time machine, the one that sent Sly to Egypt, she may be the one to help rescue sly, once she comes to her senses.
That’s true, if we ever got another Sly game I hope they’d make her an anti hero or something similar to that
@@0calliestar0 Well there are moments in stories when friends fight one another. Batman fought Superman, Ironman fought captain America, knuckles fought sonic. It could easily be one of those moments.
It may be too late for her to regain the Cooper gang's trust but it's never too late for her to set things right.
I could see a redemption arc for Penelope if that’s the case, but with no announcement of a sequel in years, I doubt it.
I think they planned a redemption for her and Bentley to make up and to help save sly in a sequel we just never got it
Penelope betraying the Cooper Gang for money makes even less sense when you remember that Sly left the entirety of the Cooper fortune for the rest of the gang at the end of Sly 3. Yeah it had to be split between 6 people but that’s still more money than she could ever want or need.
They really do hate Bentley… first his legs get paralyzed and then his girlfriend turns evil
The saddest part is that when I looked at the early concept designs of the antagonists, there was no Penelope. Leading to think that she wasn't even supposed to appear as a villain in the game. The villain in the medieval part was initially supposed to be a brand new character.
True, but the good thing about knowing that is that it means that she was never originally meant to be bad and that the Penelope in Sly 3 was genuinely good, which meant that she had a good side to her from the beginning. It’s like suckerpunch never intended for her to be bad at the beginning.
I feel like sanzaru never played Sly 3…
12:50 And also the twist makes even less sense, because in Sly 3's ending Sly gave up his fortune to his gang as he said during his Character Growth moments in Chapter 6 He sees his teammates as more than just "a means to an end" Sly see them as Family and trust them to have his family's fortune as he found something better which is Carmelita's Love. Which Sly said in the Opening cinematic to the final chapter that he was inspired by Bentley & Penelope's love that made him realized that he was a coward who never took the next step to be with Carmelita And since it's an accumulated wealth build up for centuries in 1300 B.C. So That's gotta be like Beyond Trillions upon Trillions of money that Bentley & Penelope could ever want or need! The Sanzaru writers clearly didn't thought this plot twist through all the way and it was just for cheap "shock value" just to make a poor man's attempt at recreating The same type of Constable Neyla plot twist from Sly 2, done worst.
Honestly Penelope’s betrayal is the biggest misstep in the story I’d prefer if she was a double agent for us, or abducted by le paradox and forced to build his Time Machine and sir Raleigh returned as the black knight.
Stumbled on this now as I'm revisiting the Sly games, and thank you for reminding me why I love Penelope's character so much. I remember being excited to see her back with the gang when Thieves in Time was coming out, and seeing her become a cartoon villain for no reason was incredibly frustrating - especially given she was the only female member of the Cooper Gang.
I actually think there could have been a way for Penelope to be a villain and still have it work for her character.
Le Paradox was only able to invent his time machine because Penelope helped him do it. But imagine if it went this way instead. Le Paradox was getting frustrated at the fact that he couldn't figure out time travel, so he uses his sources to find someone who could. He discovers that the son of his old rival has his own team, and learns that Bentley was able to invent time travel. So he plans to abduct Bentley and force him to build a time machine. However, Penelope finds out about his plans first and is obviously scared for Bentley's life. So she confronts Le Paradox and makes a deal with him. She agrees to help him build the time machine in exchange for Le Paradox leaving Bentley alone.
Truthfully, this version of her reasoning isn't perfect, but I think it works way better than what we actually got, and this way, we could get a villain redemption arc with her and maybe she could have even helped in the ending by sabotaging Le Paradox's blimp.
Admittedly, I have yet to watch this video but considering the subject matter I would like to quickly share my thoughts as to how they could’ve fixed Penelope’s story arc within Thieves in Time.
So in my opinion, there are 2 ways that they could’ve handled this differently:
Option A - Better Pacing!
One of the biggest complaints I have with this story arc is how Penelope just ups and vanishes near the beginning of the game for no apparent reason and then doesn’t reappear again until 3 episodes later with almost little to no mention of her prior to episode 4. I feel like if the writers REALLY wanted to sell the idea of Penelope becoming a villain in the story, perhaps they could’ve given her additional screen time to better explain her motives for wanting to betray the Cooper Gang. Her character transition comes out of nowhere and I find it hard to believe that the guy that she wants to kill the most…is also the same guy that she literally called her hero in Sly 3? Like what?! 😂
Option B - Have Penelope Remain a Member of the Cooper Gang and Appear as a Suitable Background Character!
I feel like if the writers went in an entirely different direction and instead made Penelope a background character with a relatively smaller but similar role that she had in Sly 3, perhaps there wouldn’t have been too much outrage about her character in Thieves in Time? I mean, yeah she would’ve had a smaller role but *at least* they wouldn’t have ruined her character entirely lol.
Let me know what you think…
I prefer to imagine TiT was nothing but an alternate universe “what-if” type deal, not a real sequel.
Too bad. The Plot was actually quite decent until that twist, so I'm still inclined to give that an 8/10.
I wanted Bently and Penelope together! T_T although i am younger than when the series was launched. Sly 2 and 3 have been my most favourite and give alot of Nostalgia. I didn't play Sly 4 cause I was happy with the ending on 3 than 4 haha
HUGE thanks for this! Felt this way for so long and I hate how they treated Penelope's character in sly 4 especially cause of not only how loyal she is to sly and the whole team but with Bentley and I guess sanzaru thought they did a villain twist in the last game with her and it worked so they figured they'd try again andddd it just did not work. Really hope if we ever get sly 5 she gets a redemption arc and sides with the gang again in the quest to find sly.
The Cooper Gang wouldn't ever trust Penelope again, even if she's remorseful about her betrayal, but it's never too late for her to set things right.
@@edmartinez925 yet the cooper gang showed that they were willing to trust Panda King, who took part in killing Sly’s dad, to be in the same room with them after ruining him. You’d be surprised how easy it is for fictional characters to regain trust for one another even after a betrayal.
@@TylerTheShepherd I've experienced traitors in real life. Back in middle school I had a friend who for no reason just teased me constantly like saying I suck. It really hurt me and I felt betrayed. We went separate ways by the time we started high school. Never forgave him ever since.
@@edmartinez925 sorry to hear that but that’s not really a traitor, that sounds more like a jerk. I don’t know the whole story about you guys, how close you were as friends, or whether or not you wished that you want to forgive your friend. But When it comes to friends, there’s always a moment where they have a fight. Some would indeed end it, but many times they end up reconciling. Most fictional series tend to promote friendship and forgiveness, some more discreetly than others, because it’s difficult in real life. The honorable cooper gang who basically prides themselves of friendship they consider themselves a family while most villains mock them for being sentimental and empathetic. So if Penelope does ends up regretting her actions and wants to come back, their going to end up taking her back because that’s the kind of characters they are.
I hate how they just reused the Neyla plotline with Penelope in Sky 4.
also no bond is stronger than a man and his van
But with a huge difference, Penelope was more honest in her betrayal than Neyla. Besides masquerading as a menacing knight, there was no deception in her act and she really did love Bentley.
Well Nayla wanted power. Penelope just wanted money and rule the world for no reason. An ambition that she never displayed in the 3rd game.
Honestly I kind of feel like maybe they should have had la paradox kidnap Penelope and force her to help him
Playing Thieves in Time the first time, I was hoping against hope that the 'twist' would be something else. I crossed my fingers and prayed "Please, please let this be a double fakeout. You can't seriously do this character assassination with a twist this fucking obvious." But alas, it was so. I could write a whole college thesis on why I hate Thieves in Time's story, with this moment being the focal point, but I'll leave it with this. I find it funny that Penelope suddenly hates Sly because he's a "no-good thief", when she originally met Bentley in a chatroom on fucking THIEFNET!
Fun Fact: Penelope wasn't supposed to be a villain in Sly 4. It was supposed to be a Gearheaded Mole. But instead they used Penelope, all just for the sake of a plot twist.
I know and that was the worst mistake that Sanzaru had ever made.
Right. They should've gone with the mole. In my _Sly Cooper_ fanfiction universe, he's also Dutch and his name is Wimhof, plus he's a robotics expert who manages to capture, brainwash, and indirectly break Penelope (who's shocked and devastated at her actions under that control before Bentley and the Guru free her and rendered unplayable for the next few missions in my headcanon, along with the Panda King who comforts her). As for his backstory, I imagine Wimhof was an excellent student at the Netherlands' famous international robotics academy before his expulsion (I'm still working out the reason why), which caused him to turn to a life of crime to get revenge (the headmaster being his first victim) and end up on a ton of Most Wanted lists including Interpol's and his home country's. The Cooper Gang would be tracking down his Interpol file to do some research on him, which would piece together their Black Knight puzzle. Then to defeat Wimhof in his huge Black Knight suit, Penelope and the Panda King would hijack a large prototype and land the final blows. As for where Wimhof ends up after he's in jail, I don't know yet. But regardless, Sanzaru still should've used the mole as the villain of the chapter.
@@jjtheraccoon61 Sounds interesting. Also why not make him a rival of Penelope? A robotics expert who has always been living under Penelope's shadow. Jealous of her success in the fields of engineering. Maybe they both attended the academy together. Maybe even as partners and friends. While secretly harboring jealousy. It could make his desire to capture and brainwash her more personal. I'm just spitballing here.
Despite the scene of Bentley overcoming his fears and doubts (Clockwerk representing what he lost due to the accident during Sly 2, and the ineptitudes which plagued him as a result: "COOPER! You will NEVER be rid of me!") being my favorite in the series, this is a perfect analysis of the disconnect between Sly 3 Penelope and... the person left in Sly 4. Not to mention hilarious-- your editing is GREAT. Cuts mid-sentence are gold lol.
Bentley has always been my favorite character, and I always had the same connection with him you did with Penelope. Honestly, when he returned to fight her, I was ecstatic. A cheesy sequence, but he stood up to the person he thought loved him and came out on top, for himself and his friends. That little bit of the whole debacle has always resounded with me and demonstrated Bentley's growth over the years. So while it sucks to lose Penel in such a clunky, absurd way, at least Best Turtle Boi became stronger for it. Even if the lesson wasn't exactly deep or well-explored. I still remember when he first joined Sly and Murray in the field, then handed Jean Bison his ass on a platter with no weapons...
That said, even if one were to give Penel the benefit of the doubt and insist she was always duplicitous, thanks to her Black Baron persona, it still doesn't add up. What would she really have experienced or thought that would have set her on the path to aligning with Le Paradox-- literally altering history-- and getting money?? True, we aren't given much of her early bio, so we don't know what may have happened to trigger such a shift, or incentivize her to wear a mask. Why play the intimate long game, only to turn on a dime FOR the dime? She wouldn't even have needed Bentley to assist her to make millions. Would've been fun had she been the actual final antagonist of Thieves in Time with this notion, albeit with much more characterization... or, y'know, just actually treated like a character to begin with.
Thanks for the video and making it fun! Love seeing the Sly series still getting attention almost two decades after its release.
Indeed there is a disconnection between the Penelope’s between Sly 3 and 4. It’s like she became a completely different character. Then later on in the game it revealed that LeParadox also has a hypnotist, Miss Decibel, working for him as well. Ever since he was arrested, LeParadox vowed to wipe the Cooper name from history and Penelope had the answer to his prayers. There was no way he was going to let her go. I know it’s a crazy theory but personality changes are usually heavy indications that their minds were tampered with.
“Sly has Carmelita. Bentley has Penelope. And Murray has...The Van.” 😂
I agree that Penelope was done a SERIOUS injustice by Thieves in Time. I mean, I’m one of those fans who thinks the idea had merit, but man, oh man, was the execution way off! Not does it just happen with no real build-up, but it doesn’t really add anything of substance to the overall story; it just... happens.
Maybe Sanzaru was planning to expand on this in the planned Sly 5, but since that’s been shelved indefinitely, we may never know what they had planned, if indeed there was anything planned...
I never played Thieves in Time all the way though and I'm just finding this out. I think this genuinely ruined my day lmao
I've never played Sly 4 -- and after watching what Sanzaru did with Penelope's character, I know I certainly don't plan to. I love the sweet, caring, intelligent Penelope we got back in Sly 3! So I just pretend Sly 4 doesn't exist and that the story ended with the third game. Everyone gets their happy endings. Sly retires to be with Carmelita (even though he had to fake amnesia to do so), Bentley got to be with Penelope, Murray got to finish his training with the Guru and go racing with the van.... Seriously -- why couldn't the series end with THAT?! It might've ended on a bittersweet note, but I would've been FAR happier with that than what we got with Sly 4.
Same. It's bad enough that the cooper gang had to deal with one female traitor (who turned out to be a manipulative double crossing liar) and with Penelope becoming from being a kind sweet girl to a jealous greedy selfish brat who is being used by the main villain of Sly 4, that's just too much for the cooper gang to handle.
I hate it when a fourth installment of a franchise from movies or games had to ruin a perfect trilogy.
@@edmartinez925 That’s exactly how I feel about Toy Story 4, believe it or not. As a kid, I love how the trilogy ended the way it did - but nine years later, some punk just had to wreck it all by ruining the characters and giving all sorts of terrible messages to younger audiences. (There’s a video series by GamingMagic13 that helps explain all of that and why it’s such a disaster.)
I think what made the twist worse for me was how the game tried to be ''meta'' about it. Like, it's self aware that Penelope turning into a villain doesn't make sense, so, they had Bentley roast her for that, like saying, ''Wow... and here I thought you were smart.'' But what the writers seem to forget is that pointing out your problems doesn't make them go away, and in fact, makes them worse. It's also not funny either, especially since the writers are basically making the audience go like, ''Yeah. And? Aren't you gonna fix that problem?''
THIS! THIS WHOLE VIDEO, ALL OF IT! Thank You!!!
I really think that if they wanted to keep Penelope as the villain in the medieval world, they should’ve just have her mind controlled by mrs. Decibel which leads to the cooper gang freeing her from the mind control and have her join them for the rest of the game. It would’ve set up mrs decibel and it wouldn’t have ruined Penelope and kept her character in tact plus Penelope could’ve helped out in decibels boss fight to get revenge or something. In my opinion, that option was the best one they could’ve taken if they wanted her as an antagonist in the game and it’s weird that they didn’t take it
Also since sly 4 was my first sly game and I played it as a child, I was said dumb kid that was shocked by the reveal and wanted to beat up Penelope because Bentley was my favorite character (and still is) In the series but when I played sly 3 on the sly collection a year later after 4, I then thought why they chose to have Penelope as a villain in the way they did
I agree, if there was some level of Penelope being tricked or not knowing what she was really doing as a villain, then the Cooper gang shows her the truth and she gets to redeem herself, I think it would’ve been a lot better. Also it’s okay if you did get tricked, I just remember feeling super intelligent when I figured out the twist as a kid lol
@@0calliestar0 Yeah or instead of Bentley just giving her the whole "Once you've done your job, your boss is going to throw you in the garage" spiel, he tries to warn her that once Le Paradox succeeds in rewriting history, it will be the end of the Cooper Gang's very existence, including hers.
Thus, betraying the Gang and trying to unlock Bentley's "potential" is utterly pointless. Because if it weren't for the Cooper Clan, there would be no Sly Cooper. No Coopers, no Sly. No Sly, no Gang. No Gang, no Bentley. No Bentley, NO PENELOPE.
This is a great video, and I agree with pretty much everything you said here.
Honestly, Sly 4 is good as a game, but Sanzaru's writing was not up to par whatsoever. When you mention the fact that Bentley's arc felt unfulfilling and bare, it reminded me of Murray's character arc in the episode prior. Murray manages to train Bob back up from nothing, and then feels useless to the team when the only thing against him was that he couldn't climb a vertical wall of ice. It led into a whole thing about making mistakes and moving past them, but Murray never actually made a single mistake, so it doesn't make sense. The writers wanted things to happen to the gang to try and squeeze out arcs and plot twists, but didn't substantiate them with anything meaningful.
It really upset me how full of holes everything with Penelope is:
"Sly is holding you back" How? He's been out of the picture since Sly 3, and it's just been Bentley and Penelope together working on the time machine. In fact, the only thing that brought Sly back into Bentley's life at all was Penelope and her actions, which makes this rationale make even LESS sense.
"The most valuable thing he ever stole is your potential." They both literally made the pinnacle of technology in the form of a time machine. He has more than reached his potential.
"We could've made millions in weapon design" First off, Weapon design doesn't fit her character, and the two would likely instead focus on humanitarian projects if anything, like water filters or clean energy. Secondly, she literally owned Sly's cane which is the key to the cooper vault, made the new door to the cooper vault, and knows the location. If she wanted money, she could have just made off with that fortune.
It was clear they wanted a big shocker but didn't give it any of the time and attention it needed.
One thing I noticed in the video was confusion at the inclusion of clockwerk in that one cutscene. It seems clear to me that the idea of the cutscene is Bentley breaking through his insecurities, and Clockwerk is there because he's the one who paralyzed Bentley, confining him to the wheelchair. Breaking through Clockwerk in that cutscene was intended to be him overcoming his insecurities around his paraplegic status which were explored a bit in Sly 3. The only problem is that they're never brought up at all in Sly 4, so idk why they're referencing it there.
If I were in charge of writing the TIT script, in addition to good writing, here’s how penelope’s inclusion should’ve gone.
She would’ve been kidnapped by le paradox because he knew she held on to the blueprints to Bentley’s time machine and miss decibel would try to hypnotize her, but it doesn’t effect Penelope because she’s too smart to fall for that. So le paradox enlists in the help of Sir Raleigh the frog, who is a better choice for medieval England’s villain, who holds Penelope hostage and threatens/blackmails her into building Raleigh’s mech and robot army, or else her friends would be hurt or worse, starting with Bentley.
With no choice, Penelope complied with Raleigh’s demands. But she purposely made some “mistakes and flaws” in them, like making some weak points on the giant mech suit for the boss battle, unknown to Raleigh, but not to sly. Whenever Raleigh was busy, Penelope would try to send help messages to Bentley and the gang, but with them traveling through different timelines, and the messages only reaching the emails in present day which dimitri would be too busy to check on, Penelope was left to fend for herself.
When Bentley discovered that Raleigh was the black knight and holding Penelope hostage, he vowed to get back at him and rescue her. During operation FROG trap, Bentley and Raleigh duke it out in a mech battle, only for Raleigh to get back up and knock Bentley down! Before he could deliver the final blow, Penelope swoops in to the rescue! She managed to escape from the workshop and she and Raleigh engage in a sword fight.
After the battle and Raleigh is defeated, Penelope helps Bentley back onto his wheelchair and hugs him tight, tears running down her face as she apologizes to the gang for what happened and blames herself for everything that’s happened. Bentley calms her down and tells her that the only one to blame is le paradox. After that, Penelope rejoins the gang for the rest of the game, she and Bentley are still together and becomes a playable character on the field and in missions.
(She even has some interactions with Carmelita, the two of them becoming gal pals)
WOW! That's actually way better than what the writers did. Bravo, sir!. :)
@@raven3067 I’m a lady, but thanks!
@@montanajackson3713 oops! My apologies. 😅
I fell the same on what they did to Penelope, I hope some day when a Sly 5 game came out, she can return to the gang in some redeemable arc or maybe a retcon.
The series is pretty much dead for now, unless they bring it back somehow but i hgly doubt this will happen.
What they did to Penelope in Sly Cooper Thieves in Time I think it's stupid.
Neyla is fine because we all didn't see that coming but here they turned the girl Bentley will get after saving her into a backstabber which Sanzaru ruined the lore. Either they never or did little research into Penelope in Sly 3. And the main antagonist Le Paradox he's the most hated Sly Cooper villain because he didn't have much of a reason to hate Sly and instead cause so many problems including having Penelope on his side which he indirectly destroyed Bentley's relationship with Penelope.
Le Paradox is already on my list of most hated video game villains in history.
I felt that Contessa bit so much 😭
I’m glad someone else knows my pain ;-;
It's not everyday you see a Drider or a Jorogumo in a franchise like this.
That whole portion of the game is very hard to get through, not least of which because of how creepy the place is.
Sly 2's chapter 4 area freaked me out as a kid. In the earlier chapters, I didn't feel very safe playing as Bentley, but it was just a concern about his fragility. I could avoid most things with Sly's mobility, and brute force through things with Murray's brawn. But to rob all you of the more athletic characters, and leave you with Bentley alone really made the chapter feel scary and isolating, at a depressing prison. Plus Contessa's whole hypnotism and mind-control deal is a personal fear of mine. I'm sure that even if it was a prison block on an isolated island, without a "spooky" theme, it would still creep everyone out. I eventually pushed through and got to chapter 5, and even though it was more spookiness, I was fine because it was just the usual Scooby-Doo haunted house type of spookiness.
I recently looked into previous sanzaru games in order to get a better understanding of their game developing style. Two of their games “Secret agent Clank” and “Sonic Boom Shattered Crystal” both featured mind controlled protagonists, Ratchet from SAC by Clunk and Shadow and Amy in SBSC by Lyric. It’s starting to sound like the Penelope being brainwashed by Decibel theory may be what sanzaru was actually going for.
I actually did like Sly 4 as an overall game, but I agree the story was VERY flawed, and I did NOT like what they did to Penelope AT ALL.
Story: 8/10. Character Models: 1/10. Gameplay: 10/10. Episode 4's Plot Twist: 0.1/10. Load Times: 2/10. Cinematics: 3.5/10. Potential to fix this Episode 4's Plot twist in a fifth game: 10/10.
Ah, my favorite video genre: video essays about games I’ve never heard of! (Also I liked the editing of this video, good job.)
Haha thank you :)
it would have made a lot more sense if Penelope was forced to work for Le Paradox against her will, even go as far as to have Miss Decibel hypnotize her and forcibly drug her with the spice from Sly 2 since the spice makes you both angry and susceptible to hypnosis. Arpeggio's whole plan was to drug Paris and hypnotize it into a hate frenzy to power Clockwerks body so Arpeggio could achieve immortality.
the boss fight itself was great, though that one change I said could've made the whole thing perfect. plus in the second phase of the fight, when Bentley confronts Penelope, her love for him causes her to resist the hypnosis and her Sly 3 personality resurfaces. but Le paradox planned for that and activated a failsafe in her Black Knight Mech, sealing her inside and locking out her controls so that the mech runs on auto-pilot and is programmed to not stop until the cooper gang is dead. so Bentley is forced to fight Penelope until the Mech is destroyed and she's knocked unconscious. Sly and the others pull her out of the wreckage, and when Penelope comes to, she's back to normal and tearfully apologizes to them for the things she said and did, blaming herself for everything that's happened, she wasn't in control of her actions but she was still aware of it all. Bentley and the Cooper gang forgive her and tell her that the only one to blame is Le Paradox. after that, Penelope rejoins the gang for the rest of the game and she and Bentley are still together.
That sounds like it could really improve her role in the game! I also think it would be interesting to give Penelope her own mini character arc where she learns that she cares more about Bentley and the Cooper gang than growing her own power, and that change could accomplish that.
@@0calliestar0 Hell, you could even fit Clockwerk's Eye into the brainwashing bit.
I think something that would work too is if she was still herself had less evil reasons for hiding her identity from her Bently. Maybe Leparadox pretended to be an investor in Bentley’s inventions and so Penelope showed him the blueprints for the time machine. After she realized what she did, she felt guilty and worried Bently would hate her, so she tried to fix what she did on her own by going undercover as the Black Knight and tried to sabotage Leparadox’s plans. In the Middle Ages she tries to secretly help the Cooper gang without revealing her identity. But Le Paradox is onto her, so she has to keep following his orders and fight her friends just to keep her secret. In the end the truth is revealed and Bently forgives her and she learns she can be open with Bently and whatever struggles she has her friends will help her.
I don't think the Cooper Gang will ever trust any female characters (excluding Carmelita) again.
This is a good analysis of Penelope. This video is really underrated
My favorite character is Bentley with Penelope being a close second. You perfectly explained why this twist doesn't work. I do need to mention that the "arc" Bentley goes through is also supposed to tie into confidence. Which was his arc throughout Sly 2 especially in chapter 4. As he needs to break Sly and Murray out of a very high security prison. All by himself. Which he does and by the end he becomes more confident and both Sly and Murray show him more respect. I feel like this could work if say Penelope was revealed as the black knight much earlier and you had to go on most of the chapter without him. Maybe have Carmelita try to take charge, but of course while she is a great inspector and was able to lead in Sly 3. This doesn't translate into taking down Penelope. This would help set up Carmelita realizing the whole working on different sides of the law and respecting the cooper gang more (which the game tries to do, but doesn't do enough to really show it). Throughout the chapter I would put in small hints such as guards humming classical music or Penelope's ears being hidden. Then at the boss fight after all is said and done ear buds fall out of her ears. Revealing that the real twist of the chapter was Miss Decibel hypnotizing Penelope. Also how her robots look different in style to her inventions in 3. This would hint at Miss Decibel on top of making you hate her and Le Paradoux. You could maybe even add in a reference to the spice in Sly 2 explaining her aggression (Le Paradoux has connections to various criminals and lives in paris. So that could explain how he got his hands on the stuff) and have Penelope be an ally in the next chapter. Maybe even in the next chapter Bentley makes a lot less jokes and is far more serious as he feels this is even more personal due to the whole situation. You can especially show this in his scenes with Salim where Salim is complaining while Bentley is taking none of it because he wants Miss Decibel down. Maybe an arc about emotions taking the better of him or something. You do have multiple routes to really go if this one change was made.
Penelope was a simp for sly in the 3rd game, now she’s saying he’s essentially a dishonest, no-good, lying thief? I feel like she’s tryna cosplay as Carmelita rn man, we don’t need another lady cop- I genuinely hope that if and when they create a 5th game in the series considering the hinting and large cliffhanger in Sly 4, they at LEAST try and bring the old Penelope back in some way- maybe SHE was brainwashed or something, but in this game she’s just a sad plot device-
Well, the Sly that Sanzaru wrote for *is* a dishonest, no-good lying thief, because they don't get *that* character at all, either.
Bentley won't join her on the dark side because of Sly and the gang. She blames Sly for Bentley's morality. She and Ventley could do anything but for Bentley's conscience
There are a few theories. One would be: the Contessa decided to hypnotize Penelope to be evil just to spite the Cooper Gang for putting her in prison. Le Paradox had Miss Decibel hypnotize her, or Clockwerk’s soul was survived in the remaining clockwerk eye since not all of Clockwerk was destroyed when Carmelita crushed the Hate Chip
Wow this is great you did a fantastic job explaining this issue
Penelope was done so dirty and it’s sad especially because she was a great character that we could of seen more of probably
Like I like thieves in time (heck it was my first sly cooper game) but man was it a missed opportunity in so many ways
New developers can come in and improve a game series that has been left in the wind, but it is *very* rare that they understand the characters they're *writing* for.
This was one of those times where the writing was just plain bad.
I never realised until now that the first time we see Sly wearing pants is probably in those cutscenes in TiT...
Bentley is paralyzed and she's horn-knee and that's why she betrayed them
Wonderful video, what they did to Penelope was a crime. Penelope had two separate secret identities in two different games. The Black Baron was a really clever twist and Penelope's reason for the identity were good. The Black Knight is the polar opposite.
Let's start with the designs. The Black Baron has a nice unique design and don't suspect to be a big twist or reveal.
The Black Knight is a mech and thanks to the insignia you pretty much figured out whose in it and what the reveal is going be.
The Black Baron has a good backstory. Penelope wanted to test the Cooper Gang and see if they were worth doing by giving them a challenge. She also needed someone to beat the Black Baron, so she could finally retire the identity.
The Black Knight was just a way for Penelope to destroy her former friends and get money. The motivation makes no sense and the whole reveal and conflict is a cheap stab at drama.
If they honestly wanted to make Penelope a enemy, they could have had the villains kidnap her and have Miss Decibel hynoptize her. Would have made a whole lot more sense and wouldn't have ruined People's character.
Maybe they did use mrs decibel to make Penelope go bad.
@@TylerTheShepherd Maybe, but they never show or clarify it.
@@majormccoy2659 true that would make things a lot easier. But they also wanted to make another game or dlc to go with this game and they also never disproved it either making it possible to used as a reveal in their future works that they weren’t able to do. Which is extremely annoying since they were just a dialogue away from vindicating Penelope.
So far the main support for this hypnosis theory is original villain concept art that showed that Penelope was never planned to be an antagonist along with Miss decibel never planned to be a hypnotist, and that we never really get to see Miss decibel display any of her hypnotic abilities in her level that justifies her character redesign to be a hypnotist.
Totally agree, it seemed so out of character for her to end up the way she did in Sly 4, though some of her dialogue in the boss fight did make me chuckle a bit. ^^
Nice video. It really shows how this is a good example of a poorly written corruption arc in fiction. Penelope did nothing in _Sly 3_ hinting at her butchered version's (whom I'll call Peonlpe, the name used by a UA-camr who made a review of _Thieves in Time_ I watched in 2021; I can't remember exactly who but I give this person their due credit) betrayal of the Cooper Gang and any hints that did occur in _Thieves in Time_ were either weak, insufficient, or hard to see. Though I haven't actually played any of the _Sly Cooper_ games (which I would like to do in the future once I get the means to do so), I can feel the anger at having one of their favorite characters ruined for no good reason other than shock value, like Peonlpe's presence in _Thieves in Time_ was, and I wish Sanzaru had studied up more on the stories of the previous three games (I consider the story to have equal importance to the gameplay and visuals in making a good video game, though the gameplay seems to be good in this one and I give Sanzaru credit in that area, some players may lose incentive to continue once this plot twist comes RIGHT OUT OF NOWHERE despite the gameplay aspects). While yes, they were trying to develop Bentley's character, I don't see this as reason enough to derail Penelope's and recycle the arc from _Sly 2_ and _Sly 3_ to do so (they could've also developed Penelope's character as well rather than flanderize her into Peonlpe and make her a carbon copy of the former game's main villain Neyla, whose betrayal was much better written and foreshadowed). _Thieves in Time_ also piles on a mountain of despicable actions and traits onto Peonlpe to make the player hate her even more, which can come off as desperate to make them buy the plot twist. I also think this demonstrates why we shouldn't hold corruption arcs to a lower standard than redemption arcs-they can also be poorly written, and honestly Sanzaru should have gone with the mole as the villain of "Of Mice and Mechs." I hope in the future, _Thieves in Time_ can be decanonized and Sucker Punch can develop a better _Sly 4_ even if they won't do it for years and they're currently focusing on the _Ghost of Tsushima_ franchise. And while they're at it, they should also do a remaster of _Rocket: Robot on Wheels_ (their first-ever game, for the Nintendo 64). Great analysis of Penelope and Peonlpe!
Your right about one thing, Penelope’s reason for going bad isn’t a good one, at least on its own. She could of had those thoughts at some point but didn’t act out because they weren’t good enough reasons to turn on friends, until LeParadox came. LeParadox is a mastermind who convinces others to do his work, a talent he specializes in, which means he probably took those poor reasons and made them sound good. Like a shady salesman type of villain. It’s also possible that he convinced her about other things like honor was a hindrance and that her friends were not as special as she thought. Since he needed her time machine there was no way he was going to let her go.
Penelope was planning to betray Le Paradox before he got the chance to do the same with her.
@@edmartinez925 that could be what LeParadox wanted her to believe just to lower her guard and making it easier to manipulate her.
@@TylerTheShepherd But still, it doesn't make any sense for her to become a "New Neyla".
@@edmartinez925 People assumed that their the same just because it was a betrayal, except the method of Penelope’s betrayal is different from Neyla’s betrayal. Penelope was too straight forward and honest to be a proper betrayal. Neyla deceived and successfully led the gang into a trap while Penelope left and told Bentley them the honest truth which we know is true because we’re hearing it a second time with more clarity after hearing it secretly.
As for why she was acting that way, it could also have been the result caused by LeParadox’s elaborate scheme just to make it even easier to manipulate her. Of course we shouldn’t forget he had the hypnotist Miss Decibel at his disposal.
@@edmartinez925 of course, the real reason this Penelope betrayal doesn’t make sense is because Sanzaru didn’t give us the whole story about it, only pieces of it. They were wanting to create a sequel to thieves in time which meant they they intended to fully explain the full story in the sequel, since they made it to where Penelope was the only antagonist to escape police custody at the end of the game.
yea because it was out of the blue. she went from just wanting to prove herself and be a great scientist/engineer to like I WANT MONEYYYYYYYYY like out of the blue then sounds like she feels bad until she meets bently in person then shes like imaa fuck ya up! like it sounds like they were probably debating while writing her character whether to redeem or not but like come on.
the Penelope thing overshadows the few positive things about Thieves In Time. They destroyed the only female member of the Cooper Gang and ripped away Bentley's happy ending from the third game. And for what? So they could do a poor man's recreation of the Neyla twist?
What's worse is that it has no impact. The characters show no signs that they give a damn about her disappearance until five minutes before she's found. So it has no impact when Bentley acts all mopey after discovering her secret.
also, I hate how the game framed Bentley beating his girlfriend unconscious as a moment of "empowerment" for him. As if he was a sad sack before and just needed a round of domestic violence to boost his confidence back up
Thieves In Time had an....uncomfortable approach to its female characters that made me feel gross when playing it. I'm glad it bombed and Sony is ignoring its existence.
I agree, both Penelope and Carmelita were a disappointment in this game. Admittedly, Sly has always been a male dominated franchise, but the messages of friendship and teamwork were universal so it didn’t really matter what gender the characters were, at least to me. But it was annoying to see Carmelita and Penelope reduced to female stereotypes. Penelope was just a crazy ex and Carmelita spent the whole game whining about Sly, as if all of her independence from the past games disappeared. Not to mention her over-sexualized outfit and the multiple missions that involve creepy men harassing her. The original Carmelita would be ashamed lol
(Now I’m starting to think about this topic so much I might make a video about it haha)
@@0calliestar0
I hope you do make a video about it because this video was really good. 🙂
The game even treated Miss Decibel like garbage. She was the only female character in the game that wasn't ridiculously sexualized. And the game made sure to constantly remind us how gross, fat, and undesirable she is.
And don't even get me started on the lack of female ancestors! Though that was probably a blessing. I'd hate to see what Sanzaru would have done to Henriette Cooper
That last paragraph you've mentioned, I have a feeling that after what Penelope did to the Cooper Gang, especially Bentley, the Cooper Gang are done trusting female characters (excluding Carmelita).
I agreed Sanzaru had really messed up with Penelope. It just doesn't make sense for her to betray the cooper gang after what they've done for her. In Sly 3 she was kidnapped twice, first by a Chinese dragon and then by a group of pirates that Bentley put his own life on the line for her. She would've been a goner had it not been for the cooper gang. Anyways Sanzaru had really messed up her character and I hope, if there's ever a new Sly Cooper game with the original creator Sucker Punch involve, they fix the character.
Well if it was not for the gang she would not have been in those situations
Here's an idea: Why not make the Black Knight Sir Raleigh the Frog from Sly 1?
That’s exactly what I was thinking! I wrote a fanfic about it too.
This. This was the first betrayal of my life... when it comes to fictional media, lmao.
The Sly Cooper series was my favorite childhood video game series, and I still annually play it each year and enjoy it, even more so from when I was a kid. I can still remember looking forward to Sly 4 in 2012, asking for it for Christmas, and getting upset when I was told that the game was coming out after December.
When I played Sly 4 for the first time and finished it, I was very mixed on it. First off, I wasn't a fan of how the older characters (Sly, Bentley, and Murray, Dimitri, and Penelope, and Carmelita looked) And the characterization of the older characters, particularly Sly. How the game ended with Sly disappearing, and etc.
But my biggest problem was Penelope's betrayal. I was a tween when Sly 4 came out, and I was oblivious to the hints in Episode 4 about Penelope's betrayal. It was either because I didn't put much thought into foreshadowing and hints about stuff like that back then, or I was busy debating on my feelings about the game to pay attention to details.
When it was revealed that Penelope was The Black Knight, I wasn't initially shocked. For the first few seconds, I was relieved and happy to see that Penelope was okay and thought that there had to be a reasonable explanation for her being The Black Knight, like with The Black Baron. But then, as it became obvious that Penelope had changed for the worse, I felt as betrayed and as hurt as Bentley himself. After I wrapped up the game, I got more angry about how Penelope's character was screwed over. Penelope wasn't ever my favorite or anything, but I always appreciated her as a character.
Regardless of Penelope's betrayal and "character development" being not so well handled, it still was the first betrayal in fictional media that stung me. Still to this day 10 years later, it hurts. And no other fictional media betrayal has matched it.
And whenever I replay Sly 3 and Penelope shows up, knowing what is to come for Penelope's character, it is painful. Then whenever I replay Sly 4, reliving Penelope's betrayal always my least favorite part.
Thanks for validating my feelings on Penelope and her betrayal. Back in 2013, I complained about it two people; my friend and my dad. My friend didn't care. He wasn't really into Penelope's character. My dad simply said "things like that can happen in a game."
Your not the only one who felt betrayed, sly’s voice actor Kevin miller in an interview also stated how betrayed he felt when sanzaru made Penelope go bad. He also stated that all Penelope really needed was a hug.
The problem was execution; her actions in Episode 3 (killing traitorous thugs, cheating etc) show that she has a somewhat ruthless streak. If they'd built it up it would have been a lot less irritating
I agree, while I still wouldn’t have loved it if the writers had used her philosophy of “the ends justify the means” to be her motivation instead of just being power hungry, it would have been more interesting. Maybe they could have played it like Le Paradox tricked her into thinking she was helping the Cooper Gang and this was the only way, then the episode could end with Bentley helping her realize the truth and giving her a redemption arc, which would be interesting.
That ruthless streak was more associated with the Black Baron than her. She got an opportunity to be herself when she helped the Cooper Gang defend their hangar, feeling the obligation to uphold the disguise's reputation no matter the cost as it was subsuming her. In the case this game absolutely must be considered canon (which isn't the case in my mind), I also think it might've been interesting had it been Miss Decibel hypnotizing Penelope to strengthen Le Paradox's control. To further cement Penelope's redemption, I think she would don her old overalls and throw the catsuit in the trash (that could've also maintained this control), and she would use the sword she used to beat LeFwee in their duel, as well as her RC vehicles. I think she also could've helped free Sly after a much more climactic battle against Le Paradox by grabbing him with her RC chopper and yanking him away from the blimp wreckage that ends up in ancient Egypt. Then with the rest of the ancestors, the four active Cooper Gang members (Sly, Bentley, Penelope, and Murray) go back to where the wreckage ends up (recruiting the Guru, Dimitri, and the Panda King beforehand), with Carmelita and her new Interpol partner Constable Roger St. Shepard (a German Shepherd) after them in pursuit. The two parties reluctantly work together again (much less so than previously) to help Slytunkhamen II Cooper, Slaigh MacCooper, Henriette "One-Eyed" Cooper, Thaddeus Winslow Cooper III, Otto van Cooper, and of course Conner (and Jim McSweeney and Dr. M) get their canes back from the members of Le Paradox's gang who have captured them (and have much better backstories that aren't carbon copies of other villains'). Then they face off with Le Paradox again (this time in the future), who has broken out of jail, and as per the _Sly Cooper_ tradition the skunk is killed off. The gang goes their separate ways again.
But still, in my fanfiction universe, _Thieves in Time_ is NOT CANON, and Penelope is still the sweet-natured mouse we all know from the third game.
The level design was a dead giveaway for Penelope as well. Same sky color and feel. If I were to remake Sly 4…
Penelope would have disappeared because she was kidnapped. We literally already have betrayal from Dr. M. I’d completely rewrite her to you know… her original Sly 3 self 🤷🏿♂️ see, I think the Black Knight should have actually been an old enemy of Penelope. The Cooper tie in was just a means to an end
After playing this particular part i turned off my play station the game doesn't even go with the others it's so mixed it's driving me nuts.
GOD YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD!
I agree with almost everything you said here 🙏 Penelope deserved so much better than this and the twist wasn't even good.
The only thing I disagree with is not hating Thieves in time, while you're obviously entitled to your opinion and obviously don't care too much about it, I personally think that TiT is an absolute embarrassment to the series, it's story was awful, it's characters we're either flanderized like Murray or absolutely destroyed like Carmelita (that belly dance minigame still makes me sick) and the villans are so ungodly shit, yeah the gameplay is fine, the music is nice and graphics were a pretty decent upgrade but man I hate TiT with a burning passion, I refuse to call this game Sly 4 and Penelope is a perfect showcase of everything wrong with this game.
Penelope without a doubt is top 10# best female characters made imo , the utility she brought to the team!! I don’t count 4 tho
Thank you for the video
I wasn’t even born or too young to play the previous 3 episodes
I had no idea about the story and lore
Even tho I wasn’t able see through the dumb plot
I felt like the twist to be too forced and weird which is why I decided to look up this video thanks 🙏🏻
Well said 🤙🏻
i wish we couldve played as penelope in 4. too bad they botched her.
There's a difference between character change and "acting out of character".
Too bad it's probably the end of the series
Even if you wanna explain how she was playing the long con, I still call that character backtracking, and I don't like. Besides, seriously? You thought Bentley would be ok with that, Penelope? He knew Sly all his life; of course he is gonna stick by him! Though I find it interesting how in the "where are they now" segment she is the only one to escape and even travel the world. Please let Sly 5 redeem her.
I’m think they got a little lazy on the writing. Penelope does have a history as a minor villain with the Black Baron that could foreshadow a heel turn in the right circumstances. I don’t hate Sanzaru trying to do more with her character. It just needed better writing. Off the top of my head if Le Paradox was related to Penelope or working with a member of her family that would make the turn more justifiable. As it adds a family aspect Bentley couldn’t relate to as an orphan that challenges his dynamic with Sly and Murray his adoptive family. That makes Penelope a more reluctant villain and adds to the Sly series overall theme of family and legacy. Sanzaru just wanted the cheap twist but didn’t want to work for it.
All they needed to do was build it up properly to make sense. Also not redesigning her ridiculously would have helped
Sometimes I think maybe Dr. M tried to change Penelope's point of view the same as he did Bently but was more successful with her, so after Kaine Island she believed Dr. M was right and Sly was holding Bently back. But that's just a theory.
Not sure that's the case. Dr. M never encountered Penelope, and if he tried doing it, I think it would've failed just like with Bentley and Dimitri.
Penelope is So Sexy in Sly 4
I cannot believe Sanzaru games would make a plot twist this stupid, rushed and assassinate Penelope’s character that was perfectly fine in Sly 3. Why have Bentley fight his girlfriend at all, for a stupid plot twist and character growth? His character is already at its peak, why make this choice at all when it does absolutely nothing with his character!? she gave good reasons why she had to betray her friends because she wanted Bentley to see his potential, even though it was completely sloppy and rushed but why have her betray her friends at all when she help them, joined the Cooper Gang and risked her life to save Bentley from Lefree? Why couldn’t they have her and Bentley apologize to one another and she would go with them and help them take down Leparadox and save the rest of the Cooper timeline? Question mark involved, WHY!?😢😱🤬😫 I really like this game despite some of its flaws but this is one thing I cannot forgive the game for and that’s trashing Penelope’s character, the same thing happened to Discord from My Little Pony G4 and it’s plot twist with him pretending to be Grogar and almost got his friends and especially Fluttershy killed still angers me to this day.🤦🏾♂️ I still have hope for the Sly Cooper franchise though, maybe soon they’ll probably be able to fix these issues in Sly 5 next year maybe.