Considering Charlotte - Fallout From a Sea Change Conference
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- Опубліковано 20 тра 2024
- A lot has happened in the weeks following the General Conference of the United Methodist Church held in Charlotte, NC. So much took place that still has to be reckoned with. Our United Methodist laity and clergy attached to this group have a lot of information to share. Each has his own area of insight. This session was a barrage of analysis and insight.
Links:
2019 Central Conference Membership - www.umnews.org/en/news/us-dip...
2024 Central Conference Membership - www.umc.org/en/content/united... - Розваги
I do love the input and discussions from this knowledgeable panel. Would love to hear from them again.
I agree.
Your panel was a great example of gracious behavior on the explanation of views those that attended this general conference. I would love to hear more from them in another segment.
Thank you for this series on the UMC. I would like to see this panel continue discussing the issues facing The UMC.
It was glaring at the GC that the UMC is no longer a global church but an American church.
These conversations are very helpful as many, like myself, are trying to navigate decisions after the general conference.
I have really enjoyed this group. All willing to address hard issues and not all in total agreement with one another.
Thank you. This conversation is helpful to understand nuances that were not obvious such as how confusing the process in the planery was for many of the delegates and how the African delegates were dissuaded from gathering with each other.
Yeah the controlling of the movement of Africans was quite unfortunate and, to my mind, scandalous...
I have really enjoyed this series and hope it continues.
The ripple effects of this GC have just barely started. Will be interesting to see what transpires in the months, perhaps years ahead
Can you imagine how the American church would be squealing if Portuguese or another language were being used to conduct business to their disadvantage.
Thank you for all your podcasts about the racist UMC against the African members. It is truly revolting how they were treated. Since the conference i have resigned from my local UMC and been attending a local Independent Methodist Church. Your podcasts have truly educationed me on the new racial new UMC.
The racial stuff isn't really fun for anyone to deal with, but if we don't proactively come to a shared understanding of how race should or shouldn't figure into our connexion, then it will continue to wreak havoc on us. The GMC is not obviously further ahead on these things than the UMC. I hope it will be by the close of this year. I should acknowledge it is a promising sign that the first General Conference will be held outside of the US.
Let Odell know that his speeches at General Conference were some of the most powerful and poignant during the whole thing (I watched all of it via your live stream and recordings).
I appreciate the commentary from this group a lot and find it very helpful and informative (as someone "stuck" in the UMC).
Another outstanding and informative panel discussion. Thank you to all the panelists and yes, please keep it going. The fallout from GC2020 has just begun from what I’m seeing.
It was actually the dean of the Indiana cabinet who said "nope" to another way out for churches. It was Illinois who said they would make a way out.
Thank you everyone for revealing disgraceful and underhanded ways of this GC.
GC means general conference
How are the delegates selected for the various committees? Is it possible that they are cherry picked to pack more items on consent calendar in a given committee?
I'm sure there is some biased selection going on, but the key things for this takeover already happened. Remember the jurisdictional conferences revealing that progressives had already taken over everything. There were very few delegates left in America who weren't already part of the program. Delegates get to sign up for the legislative committees that they want to serve on, and they generally get their way. They know what the overall agenda is before they serve in committee, and the committee chairs can be quite directive about their work. I would be more prone to be suspicious of heavy-handed chairs than I would to suspect that there was intentionally false representation of delegates on the committees. And it has to be repeatedly stated that the delegations selected from the across the US were not very representative of the grassroots level of the church.
The UMC is now a post-Christian sect.
All of it? Are you sure?
@@djwisdom7071 Effectively, yes. The truth is it has been apostate since the minute it allowed female pastors.
Beyond that, areas of it were certainly post-Christian prior to this latest conference insofar as it did not aggressively punish/eliminate bishops and congregations that did not adhere to the Book of Discipline as it pertains to homosexuality. Those people should have been unceremoniously drummed out of the UMC.
Now the inmates have overrun the asylum and are re-writing the Boof of Discipline to codify homosexuality as valid Christian Living. That means the guiding discipline of the sect itself undeniably post-Christian, biblically.
I understand where you're coming from. I would sincerely encourage you to pray for those of us who believe homosexuality is a sin yet are still called to work from within the UMC. I would also encourage you to consider how you and your local church can effectively minister to those who commit homosexual sin, especially if your church targets that one as the chief (most vile) among sins. I see this as a long-standing and convenient tact employed by Christians insofar as this type of sexual sin doesn't generally apply to us and deflects from our own unique temptations and sinful behaviors. May God bless you!
@@grackers7921 if allowing female pastors can make UMC apostate... I don't think the gospel has any effect on your ministry. The church that was birth at Pentecostal brings the good news to all humanity including the outcasts and the gentiles.
@@gabrielbangamususwa420 Allowing women to be pastors does make ones sect of Christianity by definition apostate. The Bible is clear on this. I submit that anytime you see a sect allowing women to be pastors, priests, etc., heresy will follow. This is because women are ruled by emotion, which leads them to set aside facts, laws, etc., in the name of "compassion". Witness the UMC.
Yes it was very very fast and it was well prepared and planned.
“Fast and furious” makes for an interesting movie but is disgusting as a way to run a conference.
1,600 pages? We launched D-Day with less information.
So for decades the BoD has been ignored. Rest assured now it will be enforced ruthlessly.
Don’t get me started on the capricious and vindictive nature of Bishops of the UMC.
Thank you for providing this update - I am disappointed to hear about the treatment of delegates from the "global south", but have that glimmer of hope that regionalization still fails (although that seems to me to be a miracle if it fails, I don't know why). When the pastor at my current UMC church did a GC debrief it was incredibly one sided. staff at that church would frequently bemoan how the African delegates were bribed or tricked into voting with conservative American delegates, but the testimony hear contradicts that.
As much I want to hear more post GC analysis, I think after June, the issue is decided: progressives have seized control of the UMC, and what's happening in the PCUSA and TEC will come to the UMC.
In terms of Lonnie's comment that there isn't a "conspiracy" to manipulate the vote in the annual conferences regarding ratification of the Constitutional amendments any more than in the past, I would beg to differ: Historically, bishops (at the annual conference level on up to General Conference level) did pretty well at presiding, i.e. managing the process and allowing the conference members to deliberate, while remaining neutral on the issues. That changed in 2016 when the GC relinquished their role of deliberation and proposal of action by formally charging the Council of Bishops to create the Way Forward and actually bring legislation to the 2019 General Conference. This was unprecedented. And of course, since then with the continual postponement of the 2020 General Conference, the bishops continued to act beyond their role and to behave like cardinals or princes/princesses (or maybe I should say "princely persons"). And at the conclusion of this General Conference, they announced they intended to create a well-organized lobbying effort to persuade every conference delegate in every conference to vote to ratify the amendments. It is clear that they are "all in" to do all they can to make sure this is ratified at the annual conferences. It may very well result in the "institutional" African bishops manipulating who is eligible to vote as was seen regarding delegates to this General Conference. As a clergy member of an annual conference for 40 years, I participated a number of times in voting on constitutional amendments passed at GC, and NEVER have I witnessed a bishop weigh in to take a position on it; he or she stayed in their lane to manage the process so the body could rule. We are in completely different territory now on that front.
Can we get a citation or link for the stats from GCFA that Odell mentioned?
Hey John, I have the links for you if you want them. Send me your email address if you would like me to forward them to you. I'm at plainspokenpod@gmail.com. I have also put them in the show notes for this episode now. Thanks for engaging my stuff!
Can you provide a link to the article Joe DePaulo wrote that he speaks of. Also the I would like to know about the resolution on the Nicean Creed that Odel Horne helped remove... My worry is, is UMC moving toward becoming an Non Nicean denomination?
Add the Nicene Creed to the Doctrinal Standards was petition # 20159, Calendar Item # 544, ADCA page # 617, DCA page # 2236.
GCFA report.....mysterious loss of membership......Africa, just leave! Just leave with us, even if it's by your own feet??
United Methodists At-A-Glance
United Methodist Communications
Africa, Asia & Europe Central Conferences - 4,560,882
This content was published May 26, 2019, by United Methodist Communications.
Last update: April 16, 2024.
I heard that the African churches had more members than the American churches but the American churches had more delegates.
When you know the vote isn't going your way, you can vote in favor in order to give room for reconsider. GC is certainly not about discussion, you have to force the conversation.
If the regionalization plan fails then there is a good chance for the UMC in America to be saved by our overseas brothers and sisters. If it passes, it feels like the traditional churches will be forced out of their buildings in a few years if they don't leave on their own here. Perhaps the central conferences will defect leaving the UMC as just the United States jurisdiction.
Yeah with the GCFA count being what it is, it seems the US will continue to dominate General Conference for at least another quadrennium.
I've just started watching and will try to finish later and share clarification if needed. Odel mentioned bundling - this was necessary at points because a rule was passed in 2016 that required an up or down vote on every petition. Accomplishing that is simply not possible in the time constraints we have without bundling. There was definitely no plan or organizing to bundle certain petitions. In fact, many of us were frustrated on the last day with Lonnie Chafin trying to bundle stuff with nobody knowing what was being bundled together.
Simon's comments - I can't dispute any of the opinion's he shared about confusion, etc. I can say that the sense in years past has been the same, except in the opposite direction. That is, confusion created by U.S. traditionalists and/or traditionalist leadership "solving" the confusion issues with micromanaging votes. When we have said in the past that African delegates were somewhat controlled by U.S. traditionalists, that's what we mean - they have framed votes in a way that leads to a chosen form of clarity. I.e., we would say a vote for regionalization helps keep the church together; they would say it is a vote for LGBT+ acceptance. The framing matters a lot.
With respect to Simon's comments, what you highlight as conservative 'control' might more properly be seen as interpretive work. What we just saw was a conference in which that interpretive work was not done, both because conservative caucus groups didn't do it, and because African delegates' movements and interactions were so controlled. Africans and, more broadly, majority world believers, share a similar worldview to American conservatives. When Africans wanted to know the real world implications of petitions to the GC, conservative caucus groups could do that interpretive work. Because confusion entered the picture so greatly this time, many people bought the language that regionalization would somehow keep the church together. Delegates are now going back, humiliated and frustrated that they passed a great deal of legislation undoing what they had understood to be a biblical approach to human sexuality. While progressive votes still would have prevailed, a more informed African delegation would not have voted the way that it did a few weeks ago. The voting created a false impression of more unanimity than there actually was. I say this while also acknowledging that more African delegates than usual were genuinely on board with the institutional/leftist agenda.
@@plainspokenpod interpretation is a better word than control. But interpretation is still a very subjective word. Is the U.S. traditionalist interpretation the correct one? You suggest that they alone know the real world implications. I disagree.
US dips below majority of membership
By Heather Hahn
Nov. 25, 2019 | NASHVILLE, Tenn. (UM News)
A little more, I am baffled at Joe's complaint about the consent calendar. It functioned in the exact same way as always. Items go on the consent calendar by virtue of how many votes are in opposition to the majority. That's it. It's a formula. There were items that I was surprised ended up on the consent calendar, but they were there because of how people were voting.
Such momentous changes should not be on a consent calendar. You can manipulate the contents of a consent calendar by packing the committee that is guiding that piece of legislation. The consent calendar as in continues to function the same way, that's not the problem. The problem is what you put on the consent calendar.
It felt new, I'm sure. The new part, however, was the dominance of the progressive worldview on those legislative committees, which resulted in the high approval margin of so much legislation, which resulted in so many items being placed on the consent calendar. In previous sessions, they would not have met those high marginal standards and would have come to the plenary floor. And the disorganized or inactive nature of right-leaning opposition meant that many/most items that came on the consent calendar were almost entirely unknown by those who approved them.
GCFA numbers for CC membership. This is the first I've heard of that. If that is correct, One explanation for a small fraction of the reduction is that there have been disaffiliations in central conferences, just like I've been saying for months now, including a few entire conferences. I know there has been question about the record keeping. Comparing United Methodist numbers to Southern Baptist numbers, for example, is not entirely apples to apples because Southern Baptists tend to hold on to membership longer and we are more prone to cleaning the rolls. So maybe some of that has happened. I'm just speculating.
Just stop paying your apportionments. “If we can’t disaffiliate then we will not pay our apportionments. Period.
8:30'ish......The WCA DID make an effort to stand against regionalization......
Yes. Sorry if I said anything to indicate otherwise.
@@plainspokenpod you're good....we did make an effort.....it's just that we failed collosally!
I don't see how you could have possibly won. The Mainstream UMC voting bloc was unstoppable.
The UMC is a slowly-dying organization so I find it difficult to get engaged in any discussion of what happened at the General Conference. It is even difficult to consider the UMC to still be a Christian organization. It is time for those UMC members with strong moral values to move forward and leave the UMC.
Whether or not they are still Christian, or are dying, they continue to wield a great deal of worldly power and influence. If the truth is not spoken and known about them, they will continue to do a great deal of harm to the Methodist heritage and to American and global Christianity more broadly.
Your graceful conversation in light of the gross deception and dishonesty by the Conference leadership is commendable. I know you know that God will not be mocked. To borrow a quote from a famous sermon; “O sinner! consider the fearful danger you are in! It is a great furnace of wrath, a wide and bottomless pit, full of the fire of wrath that you are held over in the hand of that God whose wrath is provoked and incensed as much against you as against many of the damned in hell”.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Hi Gabriel. You're welcome to offer substantive feedback. If you're here to troll again, I think we have reached the end of your access to this channel. Let me know how you want to move forward.
@@plainspokenpod my brother this is a very friendly and brotherly advise without being emotional or bias , as we labor together in God's vineyard work on your audience especially those who comes from Africa, don't get people like me already have side worse getting the Africa Initiative who darlings of the WCA/GMC to speak on behalf Africa.
Try to engage the neutral members and you will have a variety of news Worth from the deepest breath of Africa.
This has been my words to you brother sometime back. Don't even invite people like . Sample the clergy or laity who are the cameras, you will appreciate the insights from the neutrality.