Everyone Is Debating 6v6 VS 5v5 In Overwatch 2 Again
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- Опубліковано 29 бер 2024
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First it was 6v6 then it was 5v5, I think it’s time we face the reality that neither work, and it’s time for 7v7 😎 2 tanks, 3 dps, and 2 supports for ULTIMATE MAYHEM!
Based tbh
9v9, 3 tank 3 DPS and 3 support
It would be aids but tbf it sounds balanced
Actually based tho
i remember someone said 37 vs 37 at the time lmao. now 39 vs 39 lol.
- Walks into the room in Joker paint, strikes a cigarette - "4v4?"
Nah 3vs3, everyone has 1 role. I'm not kidding when I say that I would actually like this
@@El_charaPoor tank players would be stuck 3rd wheeling with mercy pocket e-daters all day bro no way
@JustATypicalGinger not only that but the pace of the game would be awfully slow with only 3 players on such big maps
Overwatch 3
yeah. 2 supports and 2 tanks. dps can't have shit queue times if you can't play them
Some of the things I really miss are:
1. Post game lobbies-seeing my medals and talking to my team for 20s
2. Queuing with my tank friends
3. Seeing my rank icon in the bottom left while I play (Also my border)
Voting on the cards was so awesome
While I do miss those 20 seconds for when it was good you have to remember it was usually when people would be hyper toxic though their team or enemies
Not really, I bonded with my team and talked about things we did during the game etc. now when I try to speak I get cut off mid-sentence. @@XDPROWoNDeRz
@@XDPROWoNDeRz you're kidding right? That's the best fucking part, don't even have time to beef anymore
@@fuckitweball77 fr
5v5 will never be what 6v6 was because of its one major flaw; that being tank counterpicking. Its stupid that they ever thought this would be a good idea. 1 tank puts the pressure of tanking, blocking damage, denying value, taking space and peeling all on one person. In 6v6, some of this was offset onto a 2nd person, but in 5v5, that person isnt there to help.
this just means that the skill ceiling went up massively for tanks, 5v5 really exposed but practices, gamesense and positioning for tank players. Most of the tank players feel miserable because in 6v6 they were able to get away by playing badly most of the time without realising it.
@@georgioszampoukis1966 Wait, are you trying to argue that the tank counter-swap gameplay is a MASSIVE increase in the skill ceiling??You think it's harder to counter-swap then it was to figure out how to work synergistically with your 2nd tank in OW1? It didn't expose anything. It forced an entire role to shift to a terrible playstyle where they just pray that their team is better than the enemy team, and that they get to exist long enough in a team fight to get something done.
@@georgioszampoukis1966delusional
@@georgioszampoukis1966uh no.
Naw@@georgioszampoukis1966
I have 0 idea why 6V6 isnt just a staple gamemode in arcade, genuinely.
Only thing I can think of is the server pools would be smaller for quick play cause allot of people would just play that instead but idk I was thinking the same thing as you before i thought about it more
That's what I'm saying
It honestly feels like one of those things where they've stuck their heels so deep into the ground that they refuse to even budge an inch in fear that it MAY even ever so slightly prove them wrong for going with 5v5 as an absolute. It genuinely feels like how blizzard acted when they were like "no we wont make WOW classic". where they just pigheaded refused to even humor an idea that may have went against their grain. Really feels like they thought knew that what players say they want isnt what they actually want and that they know best. Blizzard's done this before, they can be REAL narrow minded about stuff like this honestly.
Not sure if it'd be balanced, but it would absolutely be really fun.
Probably because most of the people who want 6 v 6 play COMP, and want to see it back in comp because they've been playing since 6v6 WAS comp (probably, not saying I'm one of those Kappa😂)
Rein/Zarya duoing with my buddy is still peak 6v6 to me. Top tier gaming experience
It's hard to pick between rein/zarya and winston/zarya for me. Both are top tier gaming experiences.
Even I played tank occasionally for the Rein/Zarya duo, and I play supp/dps 99% of the time. It was just something special.
As someone who recently picked up doomfist, I’d love to have a zarya bubble me in when I’m diving. Having said that, I remember playing as rein and Winton back in the day with my mate on zarya, was peak gaming indeed
I was always Ball/Hog and it was so fun knowing my buddy would hold the front line whilst I went around being a little Gremlin. I'd love booping people out of their shields for my buddy to shatter them as soon as they were knocked out or something to that effect. Having another person on the team to synergise and combo with is the whole area of satisfaction in a team based game, and taking away a person just stifles that creativity, flexibility and fun imo
@PrimeKeroHS honestly, it's the macro interactions that come with tanks and supports that make the game for me. Without a second tank, overwatch feels too much like any other shooter, I miss the more rpg/moba feel that ow has since leaned away from.
One thing to keep in mind, no matter what side you are on, the 5v5 or 6v6 debate will not solve all of overwatch's problems. Like the lack of an oiled up Doomfist skin.
thugfist
Need a thugshake emote to go with it too or highlight intro
Everyone on the 5v5 side doesn’t even play tank. So many hero’s get crazy amounts of value for literally being afk in a corner or just switching to a crutch hero that’s op asf
I play tank, and have had much more fun in 5v5. That being said, I am curious how it would have looked if they just removed 2cp first.
@@Minotsu so you have fun with braindead counter swapping with hero's like mauga, orisa, and hog. that is hilarious. you must be bottom of bronze to find this fun unless your entire team plays perfectly always or always switches immediately to other braindead swaps.
@arbalest327 I am masters 3 currently. I don't usually have to swap too much unless multiple ppl counter me. I play a lot of Sigma, Orisa, and DVA with few issues. The one issue I have is that it is hard to deal with front line and flankers at the same time if my teammates cannot handle themselves, which having another tank would help with. It is still the funnest role, in my opinion. There are bad matches on any role. Truth is, though, I find that most tanks, even in low to mid masters, don't understand how to manage space correctly, which makes it easier for me to win matches. I mostly played dps in OW, but I think tank is the easiest to climb on in OW2. You just have to know when to be where.
@@Minotsuwell you play the three least counterable tanks so that makes sense. I main winston. Sigma and orisa are my choices when I go against hog bastion reaper every other game (it happens so fucking often man). Tank is absolutely not the easiest role to climb on. It has the lowest impact by far. I've had several games where I get around 50 elims, outdoing the rest of the lobby by at least 10, and still lose. The reason I lose those games is because my impact is reduced to nothing when I get countered.
To say it more concisely, tank is by far the most demanding role. I don't mind that by itself (otherwise I wouldn't main winston), but I do not feel rewarded for taking on the responsibility of playing such a tough role. High skill requirement, but low carry potential.
@abudgie6909 I find high value pretty consistently. The value of the tank is in making and taking space to make everyone else's job easier. If you understand how to manage cooldowns and space better than the other tank, you win a lot more team fights. Denying the enemy dps good positioning so your team can take or hold it gives a huge advantage. I think it is a hugely impactful role. With that being said, it feels a lot worse with the dps passive because now, if the entire enemy team decides to just hard focus you into oblivion, you melt as fast as a squishy.
If 6v6 comes back, I am playing tank again.
If 6v6 comes back I'll play the game again
@@nathancasey7712 agreed. 5v5 is ass
6v6 is coming back. ow2 was a colossal failure
As a former rank 1 support, if 6v6 comes back, me and the rest of the too500 community is coming back.
The top 500 community never left bud. Didn't you comment on a video two months ago that you're top 2? You're hard ego capping :)
tank being shit is a systemic 5v5 issue imo. Because you have to pick into the enemy tank if their dps + support are hard for you to deal with it can honestly feel like nothing is working. It used to be you would pick tanks for their synergy and strategy, now it's glorified paper scissors rock, especially for tanks like mauga and dva.
Congratulations! You’re cooking level has increased to level 92!
their was still a lot of counter picking in ow1
Yes but at least you had another tank to rely on to make it almost negligable.@@tesla6938
@@AimRobot they said in a dev blog directly that it was mainly because of queue times (caused by the lack of support in the later stages of ow1 and the fact ow1 wasn't f2p)
Good points on the 5v5, but can you explain why queue times were so high in Overwatch 1? Probably because tank was shit back then too; my guess was the double barrier meta, but even if that was fixed, I think people would still rather play DPS and Healer. Why is that, do you think?
You know what would make almost everyone happy?.... Just add a 6v6 queue to Quickplay only. keep Comp and tournaments 5v5, and just add a mode in QP. You can tweak tanks stats or abilities to work with 6v6 the same way they're tweaked for non-role queue modes like arcade. People who want to play with friends and tank duo can, plus its available for cross-platform users, unlike comp. Maybe if 6v6 takes off and trumps 5v5 numbers we can look at moving 6v6 to other modes.
Poor que times
Splitting people even more across comp, arcade and now two seperate main quick play modes is a nightmare for queue times lol
I called it like 3 or 4 months ago that eventually the discussion was gonna loop back around to bringing back 6v6.
Me too, man. I've been saying from the beginning that 5v5 is an atrocious idea.
It's going to take a massive amount of work to undo the damage it did.
I dont really have a dog in this fight but the anti 6v6 people ALWAYS pull up assuming that they wouldnt rebalance the tanks. And the "double shield!!!" as if Orisa didnt get hers removed which means at most it'd be Rein/Sig which aren't the most complimentary tank synergy anyways
though i dont care for the whole 6v6 or 5v5 argument, warning youre gonna get hit with people saying sigma rematra for the double shield
To be fair the 6v6ers always say there would be no double shields or tank queues if we went back so I think that evens it out.
@@Khawlins didnt bother including ram shield since it lasts like 5 seconds while hes in his subpar form
Honestly Orisa and Sigma would still be meta since Fortified, Kinetic Grasp, Accretion, and halt prevented anyone from breaking through especially if Baptiste and brig don’t have their aoe get nerfed; worse with kiriko. Now imagine that but two kinetic grasps but no shields. Oh god even worse javelin throw.
rein just stands there when his shield is up and hes currently terrible too the reason why sigma and orisa worked so well because they have longe range capabilities while having the shield active and orisa is reworked now and ramattra's shield would be a problem if rammatra doesnt do much at long range
Overwatch 2 meta
it's a 4V4 because the tanks are afk in spawn, always swapping for the enemy tank's pick so they can counter. Both tanks holding each other off by counter swapping in spawn.
Many points but I wanted to mention this quick as a game dev.
1. 6v6 would almost certainly be playable on the new engine. Two new players would be negligible on the network in terms of network performance. Next would be client side performance (how the game plays on your computer / console), the game is still very performant and if you remember Overwatch 1 was built around having 6 torbs on each team. The game can still run 10 torbs in the game and still playable as well as being performant enough to play on the switch, which would be the only place where adding two more players could potentially become a issue. But most likely it would still be possible even on the switch. Your point about server space is also moot as well, you are adding two players on each team per game, but the total number of players in all servers would not change, there would just be less games being played at one time. Actually have less servers needed because there would be less needed because there is less games going on at one time.
2. My opinion is pro 6v6 just because i think 5v5 is near impossible to balance. 5v5 is effectively balance like an upside-down pyramid, sure its possible to make the balanced in theory, but the slightest breeze would topple it down. (Tried to explain this in text but became a text wall)
2.1. Queue times are the biggest reason people don't want 6v6 back, but there are a couple reasons why this can be dismissed or at least reconsidered / tested. Tank being more fun would bring people to the role. If Ramattra / Mauga / Junkerqueen were in Overwatch 1, more people would of played tank, just because these characters are fun to play, many and I mean MANY people went to support the moment they brought fun support characters to the role. In overwatch 1 there just was never a time with many fun to play tanks for the majority of players, now there are a lot more. as a DPS player who swapped to support because i found there to be fun support characters. Illari / Kiriko for example. People want to have fun that's the biggest driver. Period. Overwatch 1 tank was boring. Period. Overwatch 2 Tanks is not boring because we don't have fun takes, Overwatch 2 Tanks sucks because you can't actually PLAY tanks without being countered. Two tanks offers more flexibility and POTENTIAL to play the tank you want. Another way to make tank fun is actually just having a second tank. Many of my low rank friends who just quit the game, quit because they loved rien / zarya, people loved playing with fun tank synergies, well now there would be even more with the new overwatch 2 tanks.
2.1.1. NOTE: Queue times were mostly a problem for high ranks, not low ranks, so we effectively made the role worse for the majority just to fix the problem the minority had. A problem more fun tanks and in general a fun role would of fixed. Most low ranks liked 6v6 from my experience.
2.2. "Overwatch 6v6 supporters forget how annoying 2 tanks sucks" for example people playing bad synergies vs good synergies is. My answer for this is that, no, no we don't. Lets talk about how often this happens compared to not being able to play the tank you want because of countering. In ranked its rare for you NOT to get counter picked in Overwatch 2. Rare. But in Overwatch 1 is was common to get bad vs good synergies, but it wasn't RARE!! Not Rare to get get good synergies vs good synergies or bad synergies vs bad synergies. but there is a more important fix to this, one that's impossible for Overwatch 2. Overwatch 1 you can queue WITH YOUR FRIENDS. you cannot queue with another tank player on overwatch 2. There is no way you get around the counter picking, no matter who you queue with, unlike Overwatch 1.
2.2.1 "Double Shield" - Double shield sucks, but it's almost a non issue with new tank design and it WAS balanceable in Overwatch 1. There is way less shield tanks now.
2.3 "Hard to rebalance the tanks back to 6v6" - This is kinda true, but at the same time not really, because the new tanks are more bruisers then tanks now, they are actually way easier to rebalance now, because actual "tanking" is not available it would be not that bad to just rebalance numbers and the majority of the tanks would still be effective and comparable. This could take a little bit to do, but not that much. The biggest thing to consider here actually would be the yet to be released tanks that may need a rework as they are designed for 5v5 but this is not much as most new tanks are again just bruisers.
CREDENTIALS: Engineer / Game Dev. Peak Top 500 (425) Overwatch Player.
Love this take, important note for 2.1.1. - DPS queue times were worse for us low ranks, but not by a lot. Mostly I got 5 minutes, which wasn't instant like tank but very acceptable. They fixed a problem for high tier players, and I wonder if the queue times could have been fixed by updating the game, 4 new tanks, and 2 reworks. I'm honestly not sure queue times would be a problem in 99% of cases
im stealing this as a full document of why 6v6 was better and can be added back. thank you, you are a saint man.
thank you SO much for this comment, we needed a hero like you lmao
@@arbalest327 LMAO FOR REAL DUDE
And don't forget the swap to free 2 play
How do people not get that when we say bring back 6v6 we obviously mean with some serious rebalancing???
I would unironically play this game again if they brought back 6v6
i would play tank alot more ngl
@@interdimensionalskirmisher1772same, tank is the worst pvp experience in the game if you arent playing the hard meta or ramattra perfectly.
@@arbalest327just jq it 😁
No you wouldn't. You would be the first to say this game is broken even if they did go back to 6v6
Propably played in every season of OW1 since S4 (where I started) more than in the last 3 Season combined
The issue with 5v5 is that the tank role is much more demanding in a very specific way, and thats area control. With two tanks the ability to be flexible was much easier simply because you had two characters worth of abilities and stats, with two players piloting those tools. Now, to be successful in the areas tanks are meant to be successful in, they are basically required to be stat walls to make up for the fact there is one character less worth of stats and abilitys. In overwatch 2 how the game is played for tanks is just fundamentally never gonna be what we had in overwatch 1, and I think what we are seeing is that the style of game play thats incentivized is just simply not as fun.
I wonder if giving tanks something like 3 abilities instead of two would give them the control tanks previously had (ofc removing some stats to compensate)
I agree, tanks definitely deserve to be made overpowered in a lot of ways. Give them more abilities, or more powerful abilities, and make the role easier to play (as in, having one tank makes the role stressful which I feel drives away people, whereas support is pretty easy but can also be impactful which attracts more people).
It is really tough designing tanks in a game like this but I don’t think it has much to do with 6v6 or 5v5. Rather, I think 6v6 makes the solution seem more simple.
you can play sub par as a dps or bot heal as lw and you will probably win. you cant phone in tank and not get called out immediately by everyone. its truly a miserable experience. i played a couple games as mauge this season, im support. never again, idk how people keep their sanity. unless you're some god doom that is top fraging, you're just a liability. and once the giant target dies, the fight is over. might as well walk to spawn or alt tab a minute.
How quickly you forgot double shields!
@@KOL0125 thats just a balance issue and orisa doesnt have a shield any more. double shield problem was literally the devs refusing to change the numbers on the computer. it wasnt because 6v6 was broken. defending the current game state is not a brave take. it is a safe take and the game is not doing as well as ow1 did before double shield. so you gain nothing from defending this game state. no reason why we cant have both if we still have open queue just nerf the tanks and buff healing. should be fine.
i think the most frusterating thing is this debate would be so much easier if overwatch 1 still existed. then people could ACTUALLY compare the 2
Ngl, I'm waiting for Blizzard to pull an Overwatch 1 Classic gamemode/entire other server. They might do it.
This ^
@@tintopstudios3820 same dude, hoping so badly :/
@@tintopstudios3820they said a long time ago that there will probably never be a classic ow because they didn't prepare for it
@joannafakename I did not know that. But I do know that they had said a similar thing about old wow, that it was impossible to go back. But in August of 2019, they released Wow classic and claimed they figured out how to rebuild the old engine new and improved from old files.
So.... I mean, it might happen. And with how much people came back to relive the nostalgia of old wow. I don't see why Blizzard wouldn't seize the opportunity.
It might happen
For someone who spent alot of years in metal ranks during OW1, I find it interesting all these GM players claiming 6v6 doesn't help ladder because ladder never properly utilized the synergy of two tanks, but being completely oblivious to the fact that 6v6 DID help ladder because if at least 1 of your tanks was semi competent, the game was still playable. As it stands, if you're in a plat lobby or whatever and your tank is complete dogshit, you are absolutely doomed.
Moving away from team based mechanics was a fundamental slaughter of the entire premise of overwatch.
Removing the 2nd tank, and them trying to justify teamwork as having to depend on your supports and dps teamwork synergy omegle lul.....
Tank synergy was one of the most unique and integral Overwatch experiences to the game. It was one of the foundation pillars that made Overwatch , Overwatch.
Hate to be Captain Obvious but I'm pretty sure that by removing a player off your team, it has a negative impact on your teamwork aspect of the game.
@@IdLestat-jq2ci it definitely did. Absolutely an atrocious decision that they still have time to fix.
@@cabstevens But... But... then how are they going to turn it into a fortnite skinner box game?! /s
@@IdLestat-jq2ci THANK
YOU
HOLY SHIT I cannot believe the amount of people that completely miss this point, some people also just forgot cause it's been too long I think, I still remember though
This. It can't be overstated how important team interactions are in OW, and why those interactions are what made us love OW over games like CoD and Valorant.
I play all 3 roles and reached gm in 2, t500 in one -BUT having one tank only feels shitty in EVRY ROLE // as tank: in higher elo you are almost forced to swap alot or adapt hero choice to enemy team if you want a good winrate - if you get "counter"-picked you almost have no choice sometimes - also team flames and cries a lot when you dont // suppot: if there is a tank diff or one tank is a onetrick matches can feel like you have 0 impact, because teamfighting without a tank is almost impossible // on dps: its almost the same thing as support but you sometimes need to adapt ur hero pic to the tank or enemy tank to get an advantage
I had been rank 1 on support and support is just the worst. Me and the top500 community quit when overwatch 2 came out. It's not fun and not competitive. The game is practically communistic, ranks do not matter at all. Getting Grandmasters 1 is not even quivalent to 4400sr, it's actually pathetic how sad the game has gotten.
I really wish we could go back to 6v6 no Role Queue. That kind of free-for-all energy where you literally have some of the most wildly variable team comps would be so welcome after this annoying counter-pick meta. I'm genuinely tired of team comps always being the same and people swapping heroes just to shut another character down. It's become such a narrow range of viable picks, but with everything up in the air like Open Queue there's not really any meta to follow unless you run DIVE or something, but even that can be shut down if you strategize against it. I know Open Queue comes with its own set of problems, like not having certain roles filled, but I feel like that's changed enormously with how big the hero pool has become. DPS used to have the widest selection of heroes, and so people would gravitate to playing DPS characters for their variability, but now Support and Tank both have sizeable hero selections, and I feel like Open Queue might not suffer so much from the lack of interest, so people will be more willing to play support or tank without having to queue up for the role now that it's not just the same 5 heroes over and over.
With open que you could limit the role selection down to where it wouldnt be a huge problem. The max role heroes you could have would be 3. So if you ran 3 tanks you could only have two supports or two dps. This would keep one meta from going crazy. Than you drop the tanks health with how it is now, for instance Queen is 325 compared to 500+ in role que.
goats, thats why not
One thing is for sure, 5v5, 6v6, 8v8, they gotta figure out how to make tank not feel miserable. Maybe it’s impossible. But regardless, that’s the crux of everything.
Yeah I think the concept of tanks in a game like this is hard to design. To me, it should ideally be a power fantasy role where you are the raid boss, but tanks currently feel weak yet consequential
@@t.7124 yeah, if you don’t give them a ton of health or mitigation, they’re not a tank. If you don’t give them good damage, then you can just ignore them, same result. So they have to be raid bosses. But that means they draw all the agro which makes it miserable. There’s no winning.
A second tank may be what the game needs. Instead of all the aggro and miserable cds onto one person, it's spread across 2 and becomes more tolerable. This isn't exactly an endorsement of 6v6 though
@@diablotry5154 But the issue is how do we get people to queue for tank, given that even in 6v6 people didn't want to play tank.
@@t.7124 by making it more fun
said it since release 5v5 is a lazy excuse. 6v6 was abandoned, with the current patch cycle and the new devs different approach, 6v6 would be amazing and it would be much easier to balance the game and new heroes, especially tank and support.
there new approach is truly uniquely boring
When the devs went with 5v5, it wasn’t just to stop double shield. It’s crazy that people really forgot about the dps queue times. Going with 5v5 instantly fixed the dps queue times, which was something players were really complaining about after the switch to role queue.
Now, I’m not saying that OW2 would be better or worse if it the devs swapped to 6v6. There’s zero guarantee that’ll happen. However, we for sure now that dps queue times will skyrocket if Blizzard goes back to 6v6. There’s just too many dps players in this game dude.
@@nycempirestate4689 people completely forgetting about orisa hog meta too. remember shield then orisa pull over shield into a hook insta kill that literally had no counterplay? jeez that meta was horrendous too.
@@nycempirestate4689except they didn't actually address the issue, why do you think the DPS queue time was that long?
Why not just play open que if u want 2 tanks ?
As a tank main, bring back 6v6. Playing tank in 5V5 sucks ass
FR especially people who play dive tanks, you get fuckin flamed the whole game cause they want you to shield bot rein
Speak the truth my brother!!!!
I can’t stand loading in as Winston or Doom and getting insta counterpicked. Like I get getting dove isn’t fun but like damn it would be nice if the other tank helps me
@me playing Ball and killing a Widow once. Then she immediately swaps to Sombra
I left the game S1 of OW2 because I dont like playing dps and support. As a tank main I just hated it so much I couldnt stand it and quit while having played since Season 1 of OW
Flats wont admit he wants 6v6 back cause he’ll lose his ability to get interviews with blizzard employees and invites to blizzcon
It's been over a year and it still feels like a person on both sides is missing with there being one less tank
4:44 I am a DPS main. Cassidy, Reaper, Soldier. I want 6v6 back.
I'm a DPS main. Tracer, Ashe, Echo. I would stop playing if they brought 6v6 back, it's the reason I stopped playing OW1.
@@sublimedhaze7792 Good fucking riddance, bye.
@@sublimedhaze7792the reason you stopped playing overwatch 1? it isnt like they just randomly added it what
@@keeeet1796 double tank wasn't oppressive at launch, it was when I stopped playing. So yes, it was literally something they added.
@@sublimedhaze7792 ramattra, jq, orisa doesnt have shield, shields explode now
I think slow queue times late into ow 1 were because there was like 2 years of content draught in-between the announcement of ow2 and its release, feels like the game died pretty heavy during that period but I do recognize that dps always had a ton more players than tank/support but I think this would change with all the new heroes added lately
6v6 is a better experience for tanks and team play because:
1. If the tank dies in 5v5, the push just stops until the tank comes back. This wasn't a problem with 6v6 as having a second tank to soak damage allows flexibility for the team to use.
2. Tanks are almost impossible to duel if they are on top of a dps. Every role should have the ability to outplay the other no matter the matchup. Tanks now are so high in health value that certain dive tanks landing on dps makes it an easy kill for the most part.
3. If a player wants to play a dive tank that can be able to jump into their back line for disruption against a rush front line, then they are throwing their team under the bus. The off tank allowed a peeling play style that worked. Without it, just diving to provide disruption is a High risk move when you don't try to match the other tank in space and positioning.
4. the use one only 1 tank per team forces a rock paper scissors meta in the role that makes playing whatever you want be considered a throw plan. With the off tank role you can at least help mitigate some of the weaknesses that certain tanks would have. Now there is no way to mitigate it which makes certain tanks just not viable to use without proper team coordination.
5. Some character's abilities have been super strong against certain roles making the use of them providing extra very high value than in the past. We are looking at you ana. In 6v6, if one tank was slept, there was at least another tank to help soak damage. Now with one tank getting most CC, the abilities that were not that strong from before have become a huge problem balancing wise.
It was a good try for them to make 5v5 but at this point, alot of the problems that is plaguing overwatch is due to the fact that the tank role is not balancable from a game play standpoint. They have a long way to go, or just revert. But they won't revert as at that point, the 2 on overwatch basically becomes a moot point. Might as well bring it back to Overwatch 1 since the only thing that changed was the monetization model. They are too prideful to revert. So they deserve all the criticism when they can't balance the game properly.
All great points
There's no debate if we're using logic. 6v6 allows for more diverse hero design for tanks and makes it easier to balance. It let's more playstyles/comps enter the meta as well. Allows for more diverse map design. Takes a ton of stress off the tank role.
The removal of 6v6 always felt like a lazy solution to a relatively simple problem that ended up creating much bigger and more complex set of problems. As miserable as it has felt to be a tank main the last couple years, I think I would be willing to forgive a lot of of blizzards mistakes for a chance to return to a updated overwatch 1 format.
Leave it to blizzard to rework the whole format of the game to fix a bad meta.
What was the relatively simple problem?
@@Herodotus888 Well the obvious one is double barrier. To build off that there were a few tank synergies that completely dominated the meta for years, which is boring for a lot of people but the bigger issue is how little counterplay was viable against a well coordinated tank duo.
@@Herodotus888 double shield and cc...which they nerf to hell and back in OW2. Keeping 6v6 in current ow would actually be better (they just need to get rid a lot of current bs buffs and changes)
Lazy no
The issue is the Game Balance
Tanks need to Be mildly Oppressive in some sense so they feel like an obstacle rather than an inconvenience
Taking Risk on Changing Heros entirely, and Prioritizing Certain Roles to Specialize in specific task to help the team is how games like these should work.
The argument feels more Like
Tanks suck so 6v6 will fix that instead of okay how can we fix tank.
Reverting a format, and characters in general is more problematic,and time consuming.
I don't want long Que times
Or the potential for messy Balances.
Or potential for New Versions of Old metas
as an OG OW player, I'm up for 6v6, but they need to produce more tanks and support heroes to fill the gap. But I definitely believe 6v6 brings more fun for the whole team because it won't rely on just one stubborn dude. Or, they can try to go more crazy, like 5v5 but 2 tanks, 2 dps, 1 stronger support. Whatever they'd do, I'd like to try instead of current format
I feel the same right now it feels like tank and support do nothing and it heavy relys on a actually good 2 dps to win and nobody else matters but in 6v6 tank and support were the carry and u could have a mid dps and a good dps and have a excellent chance to win
There's a reason why 2 1 2 is the open queue meta
It's almost like they should've tried updating OW1 regularly like they do now, instead of abandoning it for years. Literally no one had a problem with the 6v6 format until Blizz announced 5v5, blaming queue times. We all just wanted more content, new characters.
The reason 6v6 should come back is not because its better or worse than 5v5, but because the reasoning to switch to 5v5 is so incredibly flawed we need to go back in order to fix it.
The original swap to 5v5 is because of queue times, because there were more dps players than every other role, because dps is more FUN - to the average player - than tank or support. The fix to that is not reducing the number of players in roles until it matches the playrate, it is to make the other roles MORE FUN. The whole philosophy of lets fix q times problem by reducing the tanks required in a game compared to lets make more players want to play tank is so ass. Its a band aid on a more serious problem, which is STILL IN THE GAME to this day.
You don't need to revert to 6v6 in order to fix this problem.
yeah u right
The most beautiful thing about playing tank was tank synergy, I couldn't believe they just decided to forgo that
especially hearing 5v5 stuff out of flats who was a crazy rein main back in the day. Now rein is in the dirt because of 5v5 lol
Bring back #bringbackOW6v6
Just look at the stats people care about now 6v6 used to be damage is king because it showed you was helping to make space and make the other team re position now you can have 10k in 5 minutes but if you are going negative you’re throwing
@@UndyingNero Yep, and they were going to Kill off ReinHardt as a character, he was going to die. Pretty good reason to believe that's why he's the most sufferable painstaking Tank hero to play Right now, that they refuse to buff. Some SweetBaby fuck decided REIN was too manly and need to be Batman executed out of the game permanently, and they were going to Rachel Zeigler She-HULK Rein with Brig taking over his spot.
@@mrphish1318well you’re certainly not helping your team if you’re negative on top of not securing kills.
Flats has been saying it the entire time I’ve been watching his channel. There is far too much pressure on the tank to perform. If they don’t do exactly what their team needs, they get hated on if they do nothing happens because that’s what they’re supposed to do. Flats can attest to it, as can most other tank mains, it is simply not that fun to play tank anymore. From my own experience if I have a particularly good matches tank and the enemy team, can’t seem to deal with me most of the the end of enemy team will end up swapping heroes specifically to deal with me. That leaves me with two options. Switch to a different tank and hope that they don’t once again switch to counter me or continue to play the tank that every character on the enemy team is designed to counter. If we bring back the 66 counter swapping will become less prevalent, and on top of that, they will be significantly less presser on each tank to perform their absolute best even in unrated matches.
people don't talk about it enough - 6v6 greatly reduces counter-swapping and actually incentivizes taking the duels
@@alexanderwagner2580 The whole community wants this , its Blizzard(SweetBabyinc) and like 10 repeat 5v5 defenders actually forcing their will and way upon the majority of us. The large-vast majority want 6v6, hell we never even asked for 5v5. The only thing the last 2 years of OW 1 that we asked for was just for a hint of content updates, just for them to do their basic fucking jobs and add content to the game.
@@IdLestat-jq2ci its hilarious, what we asked for was stop stuns being so awful, stop double shield, and purge goats + long queue times. stuns got removed mostly thank god, orisa cant even do double shield anymore (bap and kiriko after dps passive is taken care off still need to be tweaked heavily), goats cant exist with roll lock, and queue times from the previous game were from cut off dev support, pay wall, and the fact everyone wanted to play dps instead of the "i get stunned" simulator that was tank in ow1 before stuns got removed going to ow2 (mostly).
@@arbalest327 I think you summed up everything pretty clearly, 100% this
@@IdLestat-jq2citheres no evidence that the whole community, or even the majority wants to go back to 6v6 lol. you guys are a vocal minority of eternal complainers who even if they do bring back 6v6 you will find 50 more things to complain about. the fact of the matter is that there was just too much going on at one time in 6v6, and too many ways to drag fights out, for it to be appealing to the average fps player. 5v5 is not perfect balance wise (6v6 never was either) but what it did do was bring in a lot of new players who enjoy the heroes of overwatch but dont like the overall playstyle of 6v6. i can attest to that personally, and i know many people who feel the same way.
I think the reason queue times were so long at the end of OW1 was because the game had been openly abandoned for years
As a tank main since ow1 s1, i stopped playing tank this last season. i tried to push through the toxicity and ganging up on the only tank on your team, i tried to push through the annoying rock paper scissors, i tried to push through the counters, and i just cant. I literally can’t anymore and its so depressing playing tank now. I can’t do it alone, i need another tank that realizes what im going through so it doesnt feel like a 1v4v5, it used to be that you listen to your tank and their game plan. Now it feels like theres almost no teamwork anymore, and the dps are team captain. Tank is just there to be used, not lead or do anything meaningful. Respect to the ow1 s1 tanks that are still pushing through, i just really cant anymore…
I feel you. I had to take a break from tank. The role just feels horrible. Personally I think tanks should have 30% CC reduction and mitigating damage gives ult charge.
Worse part your not the leader or captain until the team starts losing then everything is your fault lol
It’s also interesting to note that Aaron Keller admitted that when the game was in a good balance state during 6v6, masters and up queue times were across the board fairly similar
Just for accuracy’s sake: he said that queue times were skewed across the entire competitive ladder, but strangely enough there was a single goldilocks-zone in high Masters where all three roles had the same queue rate.
GM did not have equal pick rates, only the tiny window in high Masters.
I rewatched it and you’re correct. Not sure how I missed that
To have good queue times for 6v6 we need open queue with smart balancing(heal debuffs for multiple supports, less health for multiple tanks, etc.) or we need an autofill system. Games like League of Legends are 5v5 but still rely on choosing multiple roles AND having autofill.
I know it may sound weird, but anyone else noticed that with extra players on the field (6v6) the game looks way more organized and less like a TDM (5v5)
Maybe if you know what's going on. I've never in my life shown someone an OW1 fight and not had to explain every little thing that happened, and if multiple ults were used good luck to them understanding at all. A huge gripe about 6v6 (probably the game in general honestly) was that the viewer experience was garbage. They had to create a lot of tools for OWL announcers to decipher what's going on in the game themselves and relay it effectively to the audience
I think with 6v6 there was a more established frontline, so people stayed in a better formation. But with 1 tank if you’re playing JQ it’s just like wild, everyone everywhere, feeling way more TDM
No, since it's not true, peeps just had less kill potential depending on the hero they were playing with and against.
My main reason for wanting 6v6 is having 5 other friends who want to consistently play and someone ends up left out.
Him saying that low level players didnt use synergy in tank is a fucking lie. It was usedand so many ways. From Rein Zarya to Hog and Orissa.
Most didn't though, and even when the tanks synergies were there it wasn't played correctly. Especially Wisnton Dva.
As someone who played from bronze to diamond in OW1, we absolutely did. It definitely wasn't every game, and if you got a bad comp it was really hard to win. But if I have to compare the percent of games with a bad comp in OW1 and the percent of games where I'm hard countered and have to swap in OW2, it's no contest. My guess? 40% good comps in OW1, 5% not instantly countered and swapping 4 times in OW2
Low rank GROUPED UP games did more synergies, I never played a game without finding a group
Taking out find a group basically confirmed their bad take that synergies didn’t happen often
What a terrible mentality. Most players don't consistently use tank synergies to their fullest so let's remove those synergies altogether? You know what, most players don't play Widow, Tracer, or any other high skill character to their fullest, so let's just remove them. Hell, most players don't shoot heads to the fullest, so let's remove headshots. Most players don't position very well, so let's remove the need to position altogether.
Knowing what hero's had synergy is one thing but actually executing it beyond basic shit like rein go In I bubble basically never happened in low ranks whatsoever you only really started to see it in diamond
I think there might be a point where the devs need to look at what they want tank to do. The beefy dps part feels very true for characters. If the dps tanks are strong it seems more often then not its a problem for the meta. If its the shield tanks people feel good but the tanks feel bad. 5v5 or 6v6 I think we just need a tank rework in general, like a change and more defined role in what tank should be.
I agree. Before balance changes, they need to look at making the role fun to draw people to the role. It’s currently very frustrating to play with low value, and having only one tank on a team makes the role more demanding.
Tanks in a game like this seem difficult to design, so I don’t think it’s only a 5v5 vs 6v6 issue. I think 5v5 could work if the tank role was more fun to play.
@@t.7124 I don't see a way they could make it fun to play in 5v5, because of counter picking. So it is still a 6v6 issue, where counter picking was much harder
@@alexanderwagner2580 this, counter swapping will always make tank unfun for 50% of players who try tank or more and turn them away from it.
5v5 with 2 tanks is the ideal.
I might be biased because it is the best team configuration on Paladins
6 separate roles. Main Tank, Off Tank, Hitscan, Projectile, Main Heals, Off Heals.
The queue time problems were because tank felt shit. They made it feel more shit and abandoned the game. If they made tanks feel good, people would play it and solve our queue time issues. The way to make it feel good is to separate out main/off tank, because they work together to survive and make space, and you don't get stuck "having to go shield hero" because your team is afk getting headshot. Additionally, separate the other roles. You have a support who is responsible for your health, another one responsible for gameplay speed/style. A hitscan dps to get picks, a projectile dps for follow-up. Each of the role duos work together and are responsible for their own part in the game.
The downside is you don't get every comp combo in the game. But everyone has a role, and nearly every combo you can do should be viable. No more bad team comps, just bad game design.
It would be a cool mode to try. And maybe a few other variations too. Plus they could try scenario missions were they pick the teams and people slot in but it's regular overwatch not bots.
Yeah, lets make the problems with certain roles being extremely unfun by making even more of them. We literally went from 4 roles to 3 because one of the roles was basically either unfun to play as or against. The roles being this restrictive is the problem we had in OW1 and continue in OW2.
@AimbotFreak we didn't go from 4 to 3... if u mean defense and attack they were both dps they just were geared to be better for those situations. But they were dps. The problem with your hypothesis is that tank doesn't have to be unfun. The tank role hasn't always been unfun. If they make the role fun people will play it.
@@AimbotFreak Well I don't know how you could come to the conclusion that 4 roles were restrictive because at the time there were 4 roles it was open queue. Meaning that there was no 222 or 122 and you could play whatever.
@@ApieceofBloonBQ Because the restriction is bound within how the class is intended to function not how it used to function. Pigeonholing heroes in the name of some synergy is bad.
I've been realizing this the more I played ranked recently: The complete lack and even discouragement of communication in ranked games is a BIG issue. Playing a comp game where we just get rolled trying the same thing over and over with no attempt to change anything. Sure, you would probably lose that game regardless, but at least if you're comming it's as if everyone is trying their hardest? Idk if 5v5 caused that, but the changes to default settings, making you not join voice chat by default, etc, has only made it worse.
This problem, and 5v5 in general, exacerbated the growing issue of OW becoming a glorified TDM. There's 0 coordination outside of t500, the meta is dive comps, and dive characters are the best at 1v1ing and ignoring team play. Venture also furthered this issue.
And quite frankly, the levels of coordination from ow1 days (mainly tank duos) will NEVER be replicated in a 5v5 format.
Also, the whole "people just want the feeling of old overwatch back!" argument is so lame. I totally agree that COULD be the factor. You know what we should do? PROVE IT. Quickplay hacked 6v6. They literally have started a series of making drastic changes to the core game to see how they feel. Let's see how "old overwatch" would feel. Is it nostalgia? Or is two tanks just more functional?
Good Observation, when it was Dual Tanks they actually provided the team with a lot more communication. Everyone likes to identify the tank as a unique role in which only a small percentage of the population can understand, which is why it was extremely important for the 2 tanks to communicate and coordinate as leaders. Rarley do you see the other roles being able to understand Tanking on the level of IQ that tanks need.
I'm done being silent about this: Dps has always been and will always be the decider of a match in 5v5. Which is exactly why they like it, while tank and support are faces of ”impact” dps are doing the real work until something changes.
If you ignore the fact that DPS has been the least important role up until this season, yes you’re absolutely correct!
@@--Glory-- No DPS always has been the most impactful, just because it has the highest skill cap of any role, so if the DPS aren’t good it doesn’t matter, since they rarely hard carry
@@James-fs4wrhave you seen the state of the DPS' that hea- I mean supports? Baptiste, kiriko, Moira, and ana can secure kills or have more offensive pressure then half or more of the balanced DPS cast at a time. Unless you are talking about the characters that are unfun and terribly designed that are for idiots, i.e. mei, symmetra, Sombra, and Moira. Oh sorry I mean mei, symmetra, and sombruh
@@James-fs4wr Skill has nothing to do with it, there are some supports and tanks with extremely high skill caps and some DPS with extremely low ones. Think about it this way, prior to season 9 if you had to play a 4v5 which role on your team would you want the missing player to be on? I feel like the obvious answer is DPS. Tank is inherently a stronger role since the power of two players has now been put into one, and supports provide overall way more value because they can heal AND damage while providing literal game defining utility. The role of DPS is extremely replaceable and metas like goats have shown that.
@@--Glory-- this is funny had a qp game just the other day lost the tank and we started winning. Currently tank is the least important role by a mile, but yes previously I would've preferred to lose a dps.
46:07 very true, i have this issue playing doomfist.
I set up kills, get people to low health, and often my team is shooting the enemy tank, often hog or orisa, instead of following up on kills.
the removal of 6v6 did detrimental harm to this game and I will forever stand by that
why do we have an open queue instead of 6v6?
fr who unironically plays open queue
@@D00MFISTI play open que because you can play two tanks and it's the most fun you can play tank in this game. I mostly play tank and you always see people changing and switching with no complaints. It's definitely less toxic. For instance if the tank or tanks are getting destroyed or someone is dominating there's no to city and people would just switch throughout the team for the whole match. Also less steam roll. You still get them, but its more of their playing good than one person playing bad because theres no one to blame.
They should bring back 6v6 open que with limitations. Example not having more than three character per roles. Make off tanks and main tanks. Have off tanks with slightly less health.
@@D00MFIST you are get gm in open queue if you are a gold in role queue
Open queue is so good that’s what original overwatch was. You can pick any character at any time and crazy team comps.
Hi, I have a group of people who play 6v6 for several hours a week since overwatch 2 came out, it works pretty well as long as you modify the tanks health and some of the passives up a little bit. It really is still fun as heck to just sit down and play 6v6 chaotic overwatch, a break from the snorewatch that QP has become. we even have the new heros and make new metas like rein and mauga and counters to that as well.
How do you play it I need to know as a tank main who’s only played overwatch 2 I never got to enjoy 6v6
@@micahbell3075 you poor thing, that's the most tragic thing I've ever heard. How did you join with 5v5 and become a tank main anyways?
@@micahbell3075 usually we play via discord while drunk on Tuesdays and sometimes Wednesdays
March 2024 6v6 Code: HQBX8
I can shoot ya an inv to the server if needed as well
@alexanderwagner2580 this is where you hate me, I started on rein but quickly started playing hog before everyone realised he was meta so I got to enjoy the one shot for a long time, but now I will play other tanks but hog is still my main
I think the way to do it is like paladins with role lock where u can request to switch roles with another person so if ur healer u could request to switch character lock with ur dps/tank to play the other roles while forcing them into urs so u can still be guaranteed a stable team format
The only thing I can think of for the ultimate problem is a systematic way to reduce ults throughout the game like capping point gives a team buff or debuff to charge rate making it so u can make it less stomp or get stomped so u can have a comeback and whatnot while still being fair or just tweaking it based on gamemode alone so if a mode is fast paced like push u can make it faster pace where as flash point is a slower mode and you could dial it back so a character like sombra doesnt just farm ult charge on ppl in spawn in metal ranks
PLEASE 6V6 AND UNVAULT ALL MAPS
Might as well. Ever since the cancellation of single player missions there is literally no point for overwatch 2 to even exist
unvault all maps but Paris and HLC
We can lock Havana and Circuit Royale though
6v6 and vault havana and circuit royal
No
Reasons why 6v6 (2-2-2) is better than 5v5 (1-2-2):
- In 5v5, you're too vulnerable to instant death from spam or 2+ players shooting at you. An extra tank helped to reduce concentrated fire onto the DPS and Supports.
- 1 tank to create space for 4 players is so inconsistent, and depending on the tank, is impossible to pull off; compared to 2-2-2 where each tank could create space for 2 DPS/Support. Tanks with little to no team protection in 5v5 get countered so hard by Snipers and abilities that would normally be potentially stopped by some kind of mitigation tool. It is so bad that we have some tanks that have literally no team protection whatsoever. Not playing the right tank for the right map puts your team at a significant disadvantage in 5v5, and synergistic team comps matter more in 5v5 because getting space from your tank line is harder, so you can't play heroes as effectively without the right hero picks alongside them.
- Having a 2nd tank allows players to have more freedom in how they move without getting picked off. In 5v5, you need to follow 1 player (your tank) around the whole match in order to be effective.
- Longer fights in 6v6 are more fun because you don't spend as much time walking back from spawn. 2 tanks on a team much more reliably takes the aggro at the beginning of fights, which improves the DPS and Support experience because it's less likely they will get picked off at the beginning of a fight.
- Having a 2nd tank to shoot means it is easier to get hit markers, which means more satisfying game play for your average player.
- 2-2-2 has less targeted toxicity towards any one player, whereas in 5v5, the lone tank is likely to be blamed for a loss.
- The game is too 1-dimentional with only 1 tank per team. Having 2 tanks per team made for more different, interesting interactions by being able to combo Tank abilities together. And this only becomes better over time as more new tank heroes are released. This is a significant reason why 6v6 is more replayable than 5v5. Boring tank mirrors are more rampant in 5v5 with 12 tanks in the roster than they were in 6v6 with 8 tanks in the roster.
- Rock-Paper-Scissors tank meta is mitigated in 2-2-2 because there are multiple tanks; in 5v5 the tank match-up is a 1v1, whereas in 6v6 it's a 2v2, meaning the 2nd tank choice can help off-set the weakness of a tank match-up, making it a more fair fight so you don't have to switch. People are tired of having to constantly swap to a different tank in 5v5. Having a 2nd tank also helps off-set DPS & Support counters to said tank.
- The game-play was not too hard to keep track of in 6v6. It actually was easier to see and respond to what was going on since you had more time to access the situation before you got eliminated. They can also just reduce the visual clutter that some abilities cause. Less frequent ultimates already reduces visual clutter.
- Queue times would be totally fine in 2-2-2 because of the free to play model, regular updates happening again, the increased replayability of 2-2-2 PvP, the reduction of CC from OW1 to OW2, more tanks & supports being added to catch up to the number of DPS heroes (at end of OW1, we had 8 tanks, 17 damage, and 7 Supports, which definitely was hurting queue times; the last new hero we got was Echo, another DPS), and the OW2 matchmaker seems to lead to faster queue times as well. What people have to realize is that queues will generally be shorter in 5v5, but since there are 2 less players per match, those 2 players have to then queue for a match, so needing less players for a match is not reducing overall queue times for all players to be in a match.
I didnt read this but great points!
(Short attention span)
All this proof and the 5v5 glazers still say "YoUrE jUsT bLinDeD bY nOstAlgiA"
@@cheeseballs4551"Proof" lol, these are his fucking opinions and the last point is objectively false.
@@andreamicheli2575 He is on your side He is saying everyone who likes 5v5 is saying, your just blinded by nostalgia even though its just better
You do have a good point since its free more people would be able to play the game than overwatch 1 since it costed money and its a free game or ideally they make 6v6 a game mode you can play or just 5v5 but I highly doubt that to be completely honest but yeah i see points on both sides of the coin we just have to wait and see what happens for the future of overwatch 2 and I think if 6v6 does come back the main reason people like dps is most of the cast is pretty vast and if they make tank and support as appealing to casuals while also keeping the game competitive I believe it would be good for overwatch time to have fans and creators at next blizcon to have people test out the 6v6 format and see how it is or hacked qp but these are just some ideas to put out there
Grouping up before queueing is how i met at least 4 of my OW mates. Genuinely i enjoyed it.
Started playing OW in late 2017. Until overwatch 2, I played about 50% DPS, 35% Tank and 15% support.
Overwatch 2 launches, and I played a bit of all 3 roles at first. As of now, I only play support and DPS because it SERIOUSLY blows playing Tank in 5v5.
Now, as a DPS main, having only 1 enemy tank to track and deal with is so much easier and makes my value shoot up as a result, so of course 5v5 favors that. The few games that I do play tank (just for placements generally) I hate my life and want the game just to end. I miss being in a tank duo (my fav tank is Zarya).
I realize that no matter the format, there’s going to be a trade-off of which role is going to like it or not. I hope that there comes a solution that makes playing tank more fun, and if I had to vote, I think 6v6 does have the edge in creating the best environment for the most roles.
It’s a tough discussion because both parties have good points, but with 5v5 I will not play more tank than my placements ever again.
No matter what kind of Overwatch we get, not everyone is going to like it. The Overwatch community doesn't know what it wants.
we wouldnt be having this discussion if they didnt sell us a dream about OW2 and just balanced their damn game
@ahmad2itani maybe that's true, but even when Overwatch 1 dropped after a few weeks, the community started asking for changes. How different things may have been if we maybe just trusted the game the devs we're making to begin with.
Mind you most of the problems listed for 6v6 were solely caused by lose of dev support because of overwatch 2. So saying those were an unfixable problem that is too hard is just lying.
It's really easy, 6v6, less uncounterable negation abilities, and skill expression characters being the best at the skill peak as it naturally should be.
Nah we do. We want 6v6, unvault all maps, and do map voting every game based off the 3 they put in the pool
6v6 was better. I wish every day that it will come back.
I wish ow1 would just not be gone
@@D00MFISTbiggest scam in gaming history
I think I see both sides quite clearly:
First 5v5, I think the main reason for it, is queue times since dps is the most popular role. That said we need to remember why there even is role queue to begin with, it's to make sure our games even has tanks and supports in them at all, because nobody likes playing a full team of dps.
The other major reason I can see is for balance reasons. I think it is probably way easier to balance a single tank vs another single tank than tank duos that can be whatever.
Second 6v6, it removes a lot of the pressure on the tank, because you have the other tank to cover for you if you mess up.
From my own point of view I would also just simply argue that I have more fun playing as 2 tanks, this is why I play open queue.
Ow2 seams to cater to the majority of players (witch is obviously good) by doing steps to reduce dps queue times. However if tank continues feeling like shit, the majority of tank players might quit the game or the role leading to longer queue times after all. I feel it is time for the tank duo to return so the tank role does not feel so miserable, lonely and preassured.
In my opinion, the best compromise between 5v5, 6v6 & roll lock is...
5v5 with 1 tank, 1 support, 1 dps and 2 flex rolls.
The 2 flex rolls can pick any character however when they pick a 2nd or 3rd tank, the max HP of each tank is reduced by a percentage, and that percentage stacks for 3 tank picks.
Similarly if you only end up with 1 support then that support has a percentage buff to their healing and if you have 3 supports then all 3 supports have a percentage debuff to their healing.
I'm not sure what the exact buff/debuff percentages would be (maybe around 15-20% ish), that would take practice to figure out.
The benefits of this is...
you get to experiment with more comps which 6v6 used to provide.
you get the faster que times that 5v5 provides.
you get to continue to que for the rolls you intend to play, allowing hyper flex people to que for the flex roll.
counter picking becomes less a problem just for the tanks, since now the flex rolls can lend more of a hand.
Hopefully with the buff/debuff system games won't feel too unplayable based on team composition, and the guaranteed 1 tank, 1 support, 1 dps will add some stability.
The downside is though that balancing is harder to figure out, since maybe some combinations will be too strong and the buff/debuff system wouldn't be a good fix all solution to some broken comps.
I miss double tank, me and one of my friends always played tank and had a blast doing it.
Constant counter switching is now a huge problem. Makes my tank games boring to play now.
The problem is the communities response to there being 1 tank, It abandoned the NEED to learn main tank and forced this Off-tank dive playstyle because of how fast you get blown up if you sit still. So if you arent hugging natural cover, on ANY role you will have a bad time even in plastic ranks. 6v6 is king bc it gave your team structure, without it the skill based algorithm scalping will constantly places you against top 500. Every game will be tooth and nail.
LFG was a great way to coordinate groups with the purpose of playing characters or roles that were out of your wheelhouse. I did this a ton and people liked it and didn't leave after every game because we kind of expected to lose. We would TRY to win but we would all intentionally play things we were bad at and it took all the pressure off doing so with a qp game where people start to tilt. Was basically just QP without tilting, it was great.
13:41
proud to say that i was one of the 10 main tanks at the end of Overwatch 1, Reinhardt main forever.
Live with honor
Die with glory
@@xlizerd damn it I'll go watch the short again...
Glad to know i found one of the others. Rein till i die! For honor and glory!!
The fact that a lot more characters “need” a rework in ow2 should let you know 5v5 is the issue. I’m not saying all the issues are fixed with 6v6 but there’s way less
Maybe instead of going back to 6v6 you have a more flexible 5v5 like instead of what we have now you can go 2 tanks 2 DPS and one support or 2 tanks one DPS and 2 supports.
Watching this video seeing the discussions around 5v5 vs 6v6, makes me really glad I’m a casual player
Changing from 6v6 to 5v5 solely for queue times is completely moronic.
It's not, its a better thing for everyone to try and find games, im sure nobody wants to wait more than what they should be waiting for
Agreed @dogeboy2467
@@Ajaylix_history_shorts It's moronic because queue times were only shit since they abandoned the game and refused to fix/rework annoying heroes. I never had queue time issues (dps main here) until the later seasons of ow1. anyway my queue times are still shit lol. nothings changed for me in that regard except that I'm playing a worse game overall xd
@@blind-harper yeah ppl forgot that Blizzard stop supporting the game to focus OW2 and the supposed PVE aspect of the game but if they didnt they would have tried to fix que times better
@@blind-harperThe queue times were bad right after tjey intoduced role lock and at tje time tje game was still supported.
I just want 6v6 so I can play with the boys on Friday and Saturday nights
I'm currently at 8:23 where he meant the experimental card. There was another for 2 tanks, 2 dps or 3 dps ( I don't remember if it was 2 or 3) and 1 support hero as well
This is an unrelated question but what’s the background music he uses?
As a tank main I miss working with another tank soooo much
i dont think overwatch queue times would've beem as egregious if they allowed stacking in ow1
Flats, at 7:01 you said you agree with her on the point of "infinite queue times" but if I remember correctly, long queue times were due to not enough tank players. Anyone complaining about queue times, therefor, aren't picking tank to queue for, furthermore, they should have no right to complain about long queue times that they themselves are contributing to.
They act like the long queue times wernt just because the game was abandoned for 4 years
@@mryellow6918 Because it wasn't. The long queue times became a problem once role queue was introduced. Blizzard never managed to convince more people to play support or tank. The problem got worse as people started to quit because they had to play something they didn't enjoy in order to play games.
the biggest reason tank feels bad is because your the only tank
I feel like the main problem is the lack of commitment into 5v5 we need more reworks
No you'll just end up making most heroes feel the same. Why even have a favorite hero at that point if they all basically play the same.
@@CROSSFADE69What a stupid ass comment, Pharah got reworked and is still a completely different hero than anyone else.
@@CROSSFADE69exactly, heroes still need to be niche and not generalists. I would like to see zarya, queen, and doom put in dps role, but they would still have higher hp pools.
Then they will rework old loved tanks which people will hate.
Hog rework was complete trash
Yes remove more character identity and agency all because they chose to ruin a crucial element of their game for an excuse to put a 2 at the end of the name.
I want 2 tanks again, one to hold the frontline, and one to protect your backline or dive forward to disrupt enemies
so I imagine there would be two separate queue-able tank roles (tank and support tank)
some tanks would only be able to queue as one or the other, while others can queue as either
That would be interesting, I still think it should just be 6 completely separate roles, with the possibility to flex queue into as many as you like
@@alexanderwagner2580oh man those queues would be atrocious
@justindemont6062 probably lol, but when you did get a game it would be guaranteed not to suck
Queue times would be 30+ mins, game dies because people don't want to wait 30 mins
*best Amanda waller voice *I call this my suicide squad *puts 3v3 up to bat*
The End cards screen should DEFINETIVELY come back. It was also a way to perceive appreciation from the opponents.
I wonder how 5v5 would play with 2 tank, 2 dps, and 1 support? Adjust support so they could sustain the team on their own. Maybe a dumb idea but I’m curious
This idea sounds ridiculous. Yet people say 1 tank is a great idea.
This would be more functional, however the problem is people don't like playing tanks.
this is wayyy better, damage taken shouldn't be easily reset with "heals". , havin 2 tanks is just more stable.
@@AimbotFreak people don't like playing tanks because playing tank is miserable
there is no way Eskay is giving the double shield argument like omg, people are so oblivious that these things are easy to fix, they'd rather rework the entire game than fix old problems
remember that the reason why double shield meta lasted so long is because blizzard stopped updating overwatch 1 to focus on overwatch 2 as if double shield wouldnt been nerfed after a couple of weeks I cant believe eskay forgot that
its truly counterwatch now
@@madara992counterwatch will not truly ever effect 99.99% of players and it will only really matter even at high levels (gm1 top 500 minimum) if the whole enemy team hard counters and yet still all these years yzn is rank 1 basically 1 trick pharah even into several "counters" every game. you guys just aren't good and want a reason to feel validated for being bad
And she’s a support main. Anyone who played tank in ow wants 6v6 back. I hate that I cant play tank anymore, I loved playing off tank. There’s no synergy anymore as well, regardless of role. The game it’s a glorified cod/mw game at this point. All the team elements are dead. People are oblivious. I think she just doesn’t want to be dived by two tanks anymore, the only people I see wanting 5v5 to stay are support mains. Or no one who had ever played seriously outside of that role.
@@lostmycat5671bro i literally go to silver or gold and guess what, everyone counter swaps their too, a lot LMAO.
Counter swaps isnt that bad
At least not as bad as having to play rock paper scissors black hole
what's the song playing at the start?
There needs to be 2 different roles for Tanks. Tank Damage & Tank Defense.
DPS Tanks- Roadhog, junkerqueen, wreckingball, mauga, Doomfist
Shield tanks - DVA, Rein, Winston, Sigma, Rammatra,Zarya
A DPS Tank will give that freedom to play dps. Shield tanks will be what effect que times but Winston, Zarya and DVA are fun characters even as shield.
hear me out, 7v7
HE FIXED OVERWATCH GET THIS MAN ON THE DEV TEAM IMMEDIATLY
😂@@lucashodges5134
Return to tradition
12v12
Nah make it 32v32 battlefield style
Fuck it.
Make it a 50V50 Battle royale
The dude from their little 4 way debate a couple of weeks ago said it best imo. 5v5 issues are systematic, 6v6 issues were balance issues.
No, people not wanting to play tank wasn’t a balance issue
@@RD-um9dyjust add more incentives and more tanks to the game and people will play the role OW is f2p now people are gonna fill the queues
Queue wasn't the only issue genius. @@RD-um9dy
6v6 has systematic issues as well, Tank queues being the biggest one and something that you cannot simply change with balance.
@@andreamicheli2575 i mean if we had more tanks more players would pixk tank tbh people just didnt likr fighting double shield wich was a balancing issue
iim from the SA server and after role queue, i used to get 40min plus queues for DPS. A lot of times i gave up playing because of it.
Im a mainly dps/off tank player. Right now open queue is where i live. Tank in role queue is miserable where as the combos and the communication is super fun when you have multiple tanks. 5v5 is fine with open queue with the dps passive and 1 less option for a tank and support goats doesnt have the same impact. However 6v6 was only bad when you have dlc tanks with 2 different damage reduction abilities that can cycle and if they kept it at 1 reduction ability per character it wouldnt feel like shooting tanks 24/7 and nothing dying.
From a purely game design perspective, I've maintained since it was first announced that 5v5 has a role balancing problem. Tank as a role can't be balanced properly versus the other roles when the number of players in each role is imbalanced. I _do_ prefer 6v6, but 5v5 is fixable by _removing_ tank as a role. Maybe replacing with a new role such as a Controller role that has all the CC in the game but is DPS levels of health and damage. Or even just going 3 DPS and 2 Supports.
Really they shouldn't have killed OW1 for OW2 and we wouldn't even be having to have these arguments, but since they did I expect there's no going back so I look forward to them fixing the role problem that is tank.
So we had that it didn't work, we merged them with DPS role. The problem isn't balance it's that tank is just not a fun role to play. It was a huge problem in OW1 it continued into OW2.
Yes please bring this debate back relying on 1 tank is TRASH. U rarely see a tank v tank that is around the same skill level.
75% of the Win conditions of matches solely relies on which team has the more skilled tank, rarely do you see an even tank match showdown.
Nowadays, the verbal abuse for loosing matches you'll see almost all the time "tank diff", guess it's much easier to throw the blame on the single person.
Thanks blizzard for further screwing up the teamwork aspect of overwatch by removing the 2nd tank and creating a shitty overall experience.
How would adding an extra tank fix this? 2 bad tanks aren't better than 1.
@@AimbotFreak Who says the 2nd tank must be bad? With 2 tanks the margin for error is lower on every other role. Everything from CC or any debuff isn’t just focused on one tank. It’s better to 5v6 in OW1 than to 4v5 in OW2. They buffed tanks so much if it dies you basically lose a fight. Besides most tank players will agree that SOLO tanking is stressful.
I prefer 5v5 over 6v6 by a long shot, and I play all roles pretty evenly. Genuinely couldn't bring myself to play or want to play the game when it was 6v6, but since the 5v5 was introduced it definitely made me want to play more, and made the game seem more manageable. Also was a lot easier for new players to get into, i feel like most people that want 6v6 want it for the nostalgia
This may come off as a weird idea but I think a way to "fix" 5v5 is to change the way we classify roles. So instead of having the roles, tank, dps, support. We look at doing 5 roles, something like tank, dps support, healer, and dive/bruiser or smthn. The only issue is I think certain roles, especially healer would have way too small a roster, so it would take some serious consideration when choosing what characters can be selected for each role, also if they do a bad job at setting role rosters and one role just lacks fun/interesting characters ques will suffer.
The main point is to free characters from roles that feel too restrained, for ex. Ball often feels like he's not really a tank, the only thing that makes him a tank is that he's just got a fat hp pool. Similarly sombra (at least maybe b4 the changes) often felt like more of a support someone who can setup the team for a push or kill. I also don't think that characters would necessarily need to be locked to one role. Whilst Mauga is tanky he could definitely slide into a dps/bruiser type role.
IDK obviously this wouldn't be an easy change, there is a lot of balance to look at and a lot of consideration required in deciding what the 5 roles should be as well as who can be played in those roles.
To say dva being in your face in 6v6 would be a problem is insane. With this roster of supports there’s no chance. It’s probably because Ana was so good for years which dva is very strong into
I miss having to use myself as a bubble for saving people, core zarya memory unlocked holy
When Zaria bubbled one person it would spread
Que Splatoon 1 war flashbacks
"The game is growing now" yeah, no shit, the game is free and get updates now
no, no, it's 5v5 and nothing else, trust me.
Idk, every time I play 6v6 skrims with friends on occassion, it just feels entirely too chaotic
Cuz it is and there really was a lot of good that happened with 5v5 that helped reduce that chaos and clutter and some of the immortality issues with teams basically never dying cuz of tanks cycling cooldowns
I'd much rather take ow2 where things actually die instead of ow1 where some games nothing died even with obscene amounts of damage
@@sebastianrodriguez8992you realize it's just al.ost the same minus a single zaryas bubble on the screen LOL
@@arbalest327 You realize how big of an impact a zarya bubble can be in the lifespan of a match? On top of a secondary tank?
And yes having a full charge zarya beaming me does add a lot to the clutter of already getting shot by so much already
@@sebastianrodriguez8992 no, I'm saying visual clutter wise. And tbh I'd take a little more screen clutter over tank counter swapping with braindead characters like orisa, hog, and sigma any day.
I’d argue sine the game has been balancing around one tank (via gigabuffed tanks/supports) your 6v6 matches probably would be chaotic but I’d prefer that to the overly sweaty format of 5v5