This is such a powerful scene, Babylon 5 calling out all those who think they can stand silently by while atrocities are committed and still claim their hands are clean. But I have to say, maybe it's because of modern visual fidelity, but the stark, intense lighting in the torture room scene really doesn't do any favours for the Narn prosthetic makeup.
"You were a witness It doesn't matter if they stop, it doesn't matter if they listen. You have an obligation to speak out." That line stuck me with me ever since, and though I've gotten into trouble for it, I'd rather be the person to say something or do something, than to just stand by and watch something I know is wrong take place. Your conscience isn't what you think, or what you say you think. It's what you do, when it needs to be done.
And yet how many speak out against the atrocities being done today accross the world and in the US today? They are building concentration camps in Australia, people are loosing their livelihoods here in the US if they don’t cow down to these illegals edicts. In some cities you can’t go into stores and buy food or anything else (NY for example) if you don’t have the “vaccine” tell me how it’s different from the mark of the beast? You can’t buy or sell without the mark. They say you are a science refuter if you don’t do it and you are endangering everyone’s lives, the vaccinated must be protected from the unvaccinated. If the vaccine works, how could that possibly be the case? In fact it’s not rare but common for a vaccinated person to get sick, and pass it along so why aren’t you following the facts and the science? Everyone needs to stand up and say no more!
@@bradarmstrong7467 Speaking does nothing. *Act.* Or, as the meme says, OBEY. But if you choose the latter, don't congratulate yourself for 'speaking.'
@@bradarmstrong7467 Let's not talk about the publicly-funded clinical trial data held under lock and key from independent scrutiny or the individual reports of fraud at some of the trial sites, m'kay. ...The shots save lives, that's all that matters.
2:05 I like how this scene really represents a lot of person from bystanders to soldiers to workers, and journalists most of them just remain silent. because of the fear or, loss of their wealth.
easy to say if you weren‘t in their shoes - people living in peaceful democracies today have nothing to lose and still don‘t protest important matters.
Its the path of least resistance. The hope that if you remain still and quiet, the danger will pass over you without noticing you. And you will be spared.
The fear is the loss of one's LIFE. Do you think the Emperor would not have whipped Mollari next, or have him killed outright? And if he DID speak out, would he have been around later to KILL the Emperor? Things worked out for the best the way they did.
The twist though is that Londo was plotting to assassinate Cartagia, and to do that he needed to play along with him, even in this. It really made for an interesting plot re-twist, character development, and pulling the audience back into sympathizing with Londo as he struggled to repent of his horrid mistakes that led him to this place, and a part of the brokenness that led him to not want the emperorship when it was given to him, but doing it because he had to.
@@ArcaneAzmadi Yes, I loved how Andreas Katsulas developed the character of G'Kar and how he developed the action of emoting through his costume. Most folks miss that. The very creaking of the leather of his costume is used to deliver powerful emotions and meanings.
Good. Holy heck, did that ever mess with my head! G'Kar as Cartagia! Seriously?!? The original scene was bad enough, but this one really did eff with me!
This bit, summing up all these parts of Londo's life always remind me of the Kosh line; "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
Even if you think your words will do nothing, if you want to say something but are afraid to do so you can be damned sure there are others like you. I can speak from experience that as soon as one person steps forward, as soon as one person 'breaks the ice', the rest will follow. Probably.
Remember what Kosh predicted: The Centauri and the Narn locked in their mutual vendetta are both headed for extinction, just as Molari and G'kar die with their hands around each other's throats.
@@Shintigercurl But in the dream, it isn't really G'kar accusing Londo, it is Londo's own guilty conscience. My point was that, regardless of these two individuals, the Narn hate the Centauri and the Centauri hate the Narn. That is why Kosh foresaw that neither race had a future, and they would both become extinct.
@@JK-Visions I saw that they're rebooting with JMS at the helm, but I am legitimately worried about modern identity politics getting in the way if good story telling. The story telling always made up for the CGI in my opinion.
This reminds me of something I read years ago written by an individual who had been in Germany during the rise of the NAZI party. "When they came for the Jews, I said nothing because I was not Jewish. When they came for the Gypsies, I said nothing because I was not a Gypsy. When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing because I was not a Catholic. When they came for me, there was no-one left to say anything." Sometimes, even if it will not make a difference, human dignity and self respect DEMANDS you say something, regardless of the outcome.
Well, the asteroids used in both series are too small to do what they are supposed to do. The ones the Centauri use are under 50 meters across and the ones used in the Expanse are under 30 meters across. To do the damage they show in both shows you need asteroids that are 2,000 meters across. While Earth in the Expanse gets hit with 3 measly spit balls, at least Narn is being bombarded and its cities targeted with an unknown number of asteroids twice the size.
@@cadengrace5466 incidentally, it looks very much like the bombardment of Narn is resulting in airbursts rather than impacts which is both what we would likely expect from rocks that size and what we do with nukes to maximize their damage on cities.
@@dynamicworlds1 Finally, someone gets it. It is almost universally believed and in error that a future nuclear war would involve a ground burst over "Name your town" instead of the much more destructive air burst. The plus side is an airburst has almost no fall out as the fireball never reaches the ground and only that material in the air or irradiated by direct line of sight and then burned will fall out. Most of that will stay right at ground zero regardless of prevailing wind.
This episode in particular (and the conclusion of Londo's arc in general) is one of the few reasons that season 5 isn't a complete waste of potential. Powerful stuff.
Season 5 gets too much flak. Everything with Sheridan and Delenn is great. Everything with Londo and G'kar is great. Watching Garibaldi struggle through one last big hurdle before he gets a happy ending is great. Seeing everyone moving to their final resting places on the chess board is great. Yes, the telepath stuff is dull, but even there, I think there is some good. Watching Lyta fall into a pit of anger and frustration and seeing that culminate and the ultimate revelation of her power... It's all good stuff! The reason Season 5 doesn't sit well with most people is because it is all about picking up the pieces in the aftermath of all the war and action. It feels like Season One in reverse, in a way. Instead of the chess pieces being added to the board, they're slowly being put away. The game is done.
@@OpenMawProductions I don't hate it, and most of these points you mentioned are also pros in my book, but I can't love it either. Byron, no mather how sympathetic his cause may be, is just such a dull character compared to the much more nuanced cast we had grown used to. I think that once Lyta became the leader of the insurgence, the telepath stuff became more interesting, but the damage was already done. What they did to Lennier was unforgivable too. But since the Centauri are one of my favourite things about the show I'm glad that we got a nice conclusion to that, I don't think the finale with Vir becoming the Emperor would be as compelling if the series had ended by S4.
While it is true that the first half of season 5 is probably the weakest of all the show, there are some amazing gems in the season. For starters, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" might be the best epilogue of the series ever. A gem. This episode, the one Harlan Ellison Co-wrote, Neil Gaiman's Day of the Dead, the final 6 episodes are great. The other thing most people forget about season 5 is that this was as much about closing up shop with the characters that had been here. Sheridan was no longer really the lead. He became more the background. This season was about everyone leaving the roles they were in and moving on to whatever was next. In hindsight, there probably should have been a few more episodes focusing on Lochley. There was room for it. That said, it's not a terrible season. It's good, but not great.
I challenge anyone to give a better example of a truly moving scene in any TV show. It is a tragedy that we will never get to see chemistry between to characters like Londo and G'Kar. Peter and Andreas cannot be replicated
It was almost completely written by JMS. And yes I wonder what he’s been up to myself. I occasionally will check imdb or jms websites for news, but nothing.
Londo, someone who wanted what was best for his people and got tangled in a web that he had no idea how to get out of. I always thought it was unfair of G'Kar and others to really blame him for what happened to the Narn homeworld. Londo had zero say by then despite any power and allies he had. All that would have happened was he would have been replaced and he knew that.
@@ericpelote998 Evil was going to flourish anyway. If Londo had spoken up, then a good man would have been removed. By waiting, Londo was able to be in position at a later time, when he COULD do something. Short form.. he didn't throw his life away. He saved it, bore the burden of what had happened to G'Kar.. and was able to be an influence later, instead of having null effect.
@@hinoki01 you missed the point , the point was to say something !! Anything !! By not saying anything he was just as complicit !!! Stoffenburg and others said and did something though they were later executed , but did something nevertheless !! And you forgot one thing , he was told his future , i see your hand across the universe followed by the sounds of billion , my followers ? No your victim !!
@@ericpelote998 You missed the point. If he said -ANYTHING- at all, Cartasia would've had him killed too. So tell me, what would that have accomplished? By NOT getting killed then, he was able to play an integral part in getting the Narns freed and Cartasia killed, later on. Or, he could've said something.. died right then, right there, and done absolutely nothing at all.
@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain the forced starvation of Ukrainians by the USSR in the early 30s; some 3 to 12 million people starved to death as the soviets confiscated all food
STOP! Stop now! No more! Can't you see what you're doing!? Millions will look back on this day...knowing...understanding...here, now is when it all started. Millions of people buying the series Babylon 5...at the same time.
So, Mollari, who liberated the Narn, who never approved of mass drivers, who couldn't stop Cartagia except in the one way he ended up doing it.....is the bad guy here? No.
Also yes! It was he who called for and helped enslave Narn in the first place. It was he who assisted Reefa to the position of power where he was able to use mass drivers It was he who plotted to put cartagia on the throne. The good done at the end does not remove the stain it just helps make it less
@@nostrus6500 - LOL, no. Please remember that it was the Narn who for YEARS had conducted attack after attack against the Centauri - unprovoked, because the occupation had been over for decades by the show's start. And the Narn who declared war on the Centauri. When Mr. Morden's "associates" went way too far, he was absolutely horrified. And replacing Turhan with Cartagia made sense, because by that point no one knew what a nutcase Cartagia was, only that he wasn't a pushover who'd let the Narn do whatever they wanted without consequences. Npr could he possibly have forseen the use of mass drivers.
@@Mark-xh8md and yet yes. Not saying the Narn government were innocents but that doesn't detract from what was done. And as far as arguing that Cartagia was better because no one knew he was a nutter c'mon the only reason Turhan was being got rid of was because he wanted to create peace with the Narn
@@nostrus6500 - And yet, no. Not saying that Cartagia WAS better because no one knew he was insane, but he SEEMED better to any reasonable observer because no one knew he was insane. Turhan more than wanted peace. He was a pushover. He let the Narn attack and seize Centauri territory with impunity. Yes, Cartagia was a madman. But Turhan was a weakling. What was done, was that the Centauri ended the war the Narn declared. Yes, they ended it in an unacceptable way (which cannot be laid at Mollari's feet), but that doesn't take away from the fact that the war was of the Narns' choosing, and they had spent the past many years attacking the Centauri, constantly and unprovoked.
But remember, Londo didn’t know anything about the mass drivers and when he found out he was mortified. But Refa said as the PM +/- the next emperor that he needed to go to show the centauri people that he approved. So he knew exactly what was at stake by going along.
Just another of the many powerful episodes in this fantastic series
Emperor G’kartagia isn’t real, he can’t hurt you.
Emperor G’kartagia:
Okay, who made this into an actual image on Reddit?
I was wondering why views of my few B5 clips were suddenly jumping up, then yesterday I find that Mira Furlan (Delenn) died last week.
I didn't know. Sad. I rather liked her in this series.
💔💔💔😭😭😭😭 RiP Entil'Zah 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Did she have any last words on B5?
Mira died of West Nile virus complications although that virus has an overall very low mortality rate in people.
Babylon 5 remastered is on HBO MAX
This is such a powerful scene, Babylon 5 calling out all those who think they can stand silently by while atrocities are committed and still claim their hands are clean. But I have to say, maybe it's because of modern visual fidelity, but the stark, intense lighting in the torture room scene really doesn't do any favours for the Narn prosthetic makeup.
"You were a witness It doesn't matter if they stop, it doesn't matter if they listen. You have an obligation to speak out."
That line stuck me with me ever since, and though I've gotten into trouble for it, I'd rather be the person to say something or do something, than to just stand by and watch something I know is wrong take place. Your conscience isn't what you think, or what you say you think. It's what you do, when it needs to be done.
Yeah, but some people have kids.
And yet how many speak out against the atrocities being done today accross the world and in the US today? They are building concentration camps in Australia, people are loosing their livelihoods here in the US if they don’t cow down to these illegals edicts. In some cities you can’t go into stores and buy food or anything else (NY for example) if you don’t have the “vaccine” tell me how it’s different from the mark of the beast? You can’t buy or sell without the mark. They say you are a science refuter if you don’t do it and you are endangering everyone’s lives, the vaccinated must be protected from the unvaccinated. If the vaccine works, how could that possibly be the case? In fact it’s not rare but common for a vaccinated person to get sick, and pass it along so why aren’t you following the facts and the science? Everyone needs to stand up and say no more!
@@bradarmstrong7467 You're not arguing in good faith.
You're making mouth noises to make people dance to your tune.
You're Mr. Morden.
@@bradarmstrong7467 Speaking does nothing.
*Act.* Or, as the meme says, OBEY. But if you choose the latter, don't congratulate yourself for 'speaking.'
@@bradarmstrong7467 Let's not talk about the publicly-funded clinical trial data held under lock and key from independent scrutiny or the individual reports of fraud at some of the trial sites, m'kay. ...The shots save lives, that's all that matters.
2:05 I like how this scene really represents a lot of person from bystanders to soldiers to workers, and journalists most of them just remain silent. because of the fear or, loss of their wealth.
In some cases it's the fear of being next.
easy to say if you weren‘t in their shoes - people living in peaceful democracies today have nothing to lose and still don‘t protest important matters.
Its the path of least resistance. The hope that if you remain still and quiet, the danger will pass over you without noticing you. And you will be spared.
The fear is the loss of one's LIFE. Do you think the Emperor would not have whipped Mollari next, or have him killed outright? And if he DID speak out, would he have been around later to KILL the Emperor? Things worked out for the best the way they did.
The twist though is that Londo was plotting to assassinate Cartagia, and to do that he needed to play along with him, even in this. It really made for an interesting plot re-twist, character development, and pulling the audience back into sympathizing with Londo as he struggled to repent of his horrid mistakes that led him to this place, and a part of the brokenness that led him to not want the emperorship when it was given to him, but doing it because he had to.
All that is required for evil to triumph good is for good men to do nothing.
the 90s scifi,jms ur a legend,it was like watching starwars as a 7 yr old,but i was 23,i named my 1st born delenn
By far the best scenes of this entire series were those between Londo and G'Kar.
In a series with such a fantastic cast, Peter Jurasik and Andreas Katsulas were the clear MVPs.
@@ArcaneAzmadi Yes, I loved how Andreas Katsulas developed the character of G'Kar and how he developed the action of emoting through his costume. Most folks miss that. The very creaking of the leather of his costume is used to deliver powerful emotions and meanings.
G’kar, the haunting conscience that follows Molari through his lifetime and his series arc.
B5 had such incredible acting and stories. I still love it very much.
The greatest thing here is that Londo speaks with himself in this scene
Cuts off just as it gets to the good part, G'Kar as Cartagia
Seriously, the way he counted.
Good. Holy heck, did that ever mess with my head! G'Kar as Cartagia! Seriously?!? The original scene was bad enough, but this one really did eff with me!
I always feel that this version of 'Christmas Past' was the better one!
Peter Jurasik would play an excellent Mr. Scrooge
Hands down the greatest television series of all time. I'm so thankful that I was able to see this when it first aired as a kid
This bit, summing up all these parts of Londo's life always remind me of the Kosh line; "The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
My favorite Koshism!
Babylon 5 had some of the best dialog of any show, Sci-fi or otherwise.
Wish I could write like this.
Even if you think your words will do nothing, if you want to say something but are afraid to do so you can be damned sure there are others like you. I can speak from experience that as soon as one person steps forward, as soon as one person 'breaks the ice', the rest will follow. Probably.
This was one of the most powerful scenes in television. Sadly its message fell on deaf ears.
I still think Londo and GKar sitting in a strip bar agreeing that women are the finest part of the universe was quite touching in its own way.
I doubt many, if any, of the people the message would have been meant for were part of the audience, to be fair.
Remember what Kosh predicted: The Centauri and the Narn locked in their mutual vendetta are both headed for extinction, just as Molari and G'kar die with their hands around each other's throats.
G'Kar literally did it as a favor because Londo was a slave in his own body. They were close friends and allies before Londo was taken over.
it really changes how that dream played out once you know the full context of it. they died not as enemies but as friends.
@@Shintigercurl But in the dream, it isn't really G'kar accusing Londo, it is Londo's own guilty conscience.
My point was that, regardless of these two individuals, the Narn hate the Centauri and the Centauri hate the Narn. That is why Kosh foresaw that neither race had a future, and they would both become extinct.
@@hisxmark i was referring to the vision that londo had years ago.
@@hisxmark and Kosh tried to give future to Narn... trough Gkar... and well it somehow worked for Centauri in the end with Vir...
2:27-the ultimate sin of the human race in a nutshell.
This series still doesn't get the credit it deserves.
I think it does. They are planning a reboot with JMS at the helm so great expectations. We however never forget the original crew. Miss them always.
@@JK-Visions I saw that they're rebooting with JMS at the helm, but I am legitimately worried about modern identity politics getting in the way if good story telling. The story telling always made up for the CGI in my opinion.
Great actors, great scene.
This reminds me of something I read years ago written by an individual who had been in Germany during the rise of the NAZI party. "When they came for the Jews, I said nothing because I was not Jewish. When they came for the Gypsies, I said nothing because I was not a Gypsy. When they came for the Catholics, I said nothing because I was not a Catholic. When they came for me, there was no-one left to say anything." Sometimes, even if it will not make a difference, human dignity and self respect DEMANDS you say something, regardless of the outcome.
Can't run from your conscience.
After the expanse showing what a few asteroids could do...then compare this to the numerous asteroids the Centari used...yikes.
Well, the asteroids used in both series are too small to do what they are supposed to do. The ones the Centauri use are under 50 meters across and the ones used in the Expanse are under 30 meters across. To do the damage they show in both shows you need asteroids that are 2,000 meters across. While Earth in the Expanse gets hit with 3 measly spit balls, at least Narn is being bombarded and its cities targeted with an unknown number of asteroids twice the size.
@@cadengrace5466 incidentally, it looks very much like the bombardment of Narn is resulting in airbursts rather than impacts which is both what we would likely expect from rocks that size and what we do with nukes to maximize their damage on cities.
@@dynamicworlds1 Finally, someone gets it. It is almost universally believed and in error that a future nuclear war would involve a ground burst over "Name your town" instead of the much more destructive air burst. The plus side is an airburst has almost no fall out as the fireball never reaches the ground and only that material in the air or irradiated by direct line of sight and then burned will fall out. Most of that will stay right at ground zero regardless of prevailing wind.
Still powerful
I watch all scifi, but I still think B5 was the deepest, most well acted, and certainly best written of any series ever to Grace TV.
Thanks! I'd forgotten there are some good episodes from season 5!
this is my 1st b5 episode..this is what made me fall in love with this show
This episode in particular (and the conclusion of Londo's arc in general) is one of the few reasons that season 5 isn't a complete waste of potential. Powerful stuff.
Season 5 gets too much flak. Everything with Sheridan and Delenn is great. Everything with Londo and G'kar is great. Watching Garibaldi struggle through one last big hurdle before he gets a happy ending is great. Seeing everyone moving to their final resting places on the chess board is great. Yes, the telepath stuff is dull, but even there, I think there is some good. Watching Lyta fall into a pit of anger and frustration and seeing that culminate and the ultimate revelation of her power... It's all good stuff! The reason Season 5 doesn't sit well with most people is because it is all about picking up the pieces in the aftermath of all the war and action. It feels like Season One in reverse, in a way. Instead of the chess pieces being added to the board, they're slowly being put away. The game is done.
@@OpenMawProductions I don't hate it, and most of these points you mentioned are also pros in my book, but I can't love it either. Byron, no mather how sympathetic his cause may be, is just such a dull character compared to the much more nuanced cast we had grown used to. I think that once Lyta became the leader of the insurgence, the telepath stuff became more interesting, but the damage was already done. What they did to Lennier was unforgivable too. But since the Centauri are one of my favourite things about the show I'm glad that we got a nice conclusion to that, I don't think the finale with Vir becoming the Emperor would be as compelling if the series had ended by S4.
While it is true that the first half of season 5 is probably the weakest of all the show, there are some amazing gems in the season. For starters, "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" might be the best epilogue of the series ever. A gem. This episode, the one Harlan Ellison Co-wrote, Neil Gaiman's Day of the Dead, the final 6 episodes are great. The other thing most people forget about season 5 is that this was as much about closing up shop with the characters that had been here. Sheridan was no longer really the lead. He became more the background. This season was about everyone leaving the roles they were in and moving on to whatever was next. In hindsight, there probably should have been a few more episodes focusing on Lochley. There was room for it. That said, it's not a terrible season. It's good, but not great.
Without the uncertainty caused by the studio heads,
season 5 could have been so much more.
I challenge anyone to give a better example of a truly moving scene in any TV show. It is a tragedy that we will never get to see chemistry between to characters like Londo and G'Kar. Peter and Andreas cannot be replicated
At the time, would G'kar have spoken out?
Sometimes I sing. "Molari, whoa oh."
Man I miss this show...
Powerful scene. First of this show I've ever seen.
What happened to the writers of this show? Were they killed off? Why can't we have this level of entertainment today?
A question I often ask myself...
It was almost completely written by JMS. And yes I wonder what he’s been up to myself. I occasionally will check imdb or jms websites for news, but nothing.
Londo, someone who wanted what was best for his people and got tangled in a web that he had no idea how to get out of. I always thought it was unfair of G'Kar and others to really blame him for what happened to the Narn homeworld. Londo had zero say by then despite any power and allies he had. All that would have happened was he would have been replaced and he knew that.
All evil needs to flourish is good people or man to say and do nothing !!
@@ericpelote998 Evil was going to flourish anyway. If Londo had spoken up, then a good man would have been removed. By waiting, Londo was able to be in position at a later time, when he COULD do something.
Short form.. he didn't throw his life away. He saved it, bore the burden of what had happened to G'Kar.. and was able to be an influence later, instead of having null effect.
@@hinoki01 you missed the point , the point was to say something !! Anything !! By not saying anything he was just as complicit !!! Stoffenburg and others said and did something though they were later executed , but did something nevertheless !! And you forgot one thing , he was told his future , i see your hand across the universe followed by the sounds of billion , my followers ? No your victim !!
@@ericpelote998 You missed the point.
If he said -ANYTHING- at all, Cartasia would've had him killed too.
So tell me, what would that have accomplished?
By NOT getting killed then, he was able to play an integral part in getting the Narns freed and Cartasia killed, later on.
Or, he could've said something.. died right then, right there, and done absolutely nothing at all.
@@hinoki01 That's why it's important to speak up BEFORE things can get to such a point, but few if any ever do.
I don't remember this scene. I think it's time for a rewatch of the show.
very shakespeare
G'kar is better than ever kilngon in existence.
I don't count crazy eyes Klingons.
So well writen serie.
One
CRACK!!!
2:25 powerful! kind of harkens back to the holocaust.
*holodomor
????
Holodomor
I don't know that term.
@@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain the forced starvation of Ukrainians by the USSR in the early 30s; some 3 to 12 million people starved to death as the soviets confiscated all food
And people say Season 5 was bad...
it had its hits and misses, and it had a lot of misses
But when it hit, it *hit*
STOP! Stop now! No more! Can't you see what you're doing!? Millions will look back on this day...knowing...understanding...here, now is when it all started. Millions of people buying the series Babylon 5...at the same time.
Pov: Zelenskyj
So, Mollari, who liberated the Narn, who never approved of mass drivers, who couldn't stop Cartagia except in the one way he ended up doing it.....is the bad guy here?
No.
Also yes!
It was he who called for and helped enslave Narn in the first place.
It was he who assisted Reefa to the position of power where he was able to use mass drivers
It was he who plotted to put cartagia on the throne.
The good done at the end does not remove the stain it just helps make it less
@@nostrus6500 - LOL, no. Please remember that it was the Narn who for YEARS had conducted attack after attack against the Centauri - unprovoked, because the occupation had been over for decades by the show's start. And the Narn who declared war on the Centauri.
When Mr. Morden's "associates" went way too far, he was absolutely horrified.
And replacing Turhan with Cartagia made sense, because by that point no one knew what a nutcase Cartagia was, only that he wasn't a pushover who'd let the Narn do whatever they wanted without consequences.
Npr could he possibly have forseen the use of mass drivers.
@@Mark-xh8md and yet yes. Not saying the Narn government were innocents but that doesn't detract from what was done.
And as far as arguing that Cartagia was better because no one knew he was a nutter c'mon the only reason Turhan was being got rid of was because he wanted to create peace with the Narn
@@nostrus6500 - And yet, no. Not saying that Cartagia WAS better because no one knew he was insane, but he SEEMED better to any reasonable observer because no one knew he was insane.
Turhan more than wanted peace. He was a pushover. He let the Narn attack and seize Centauri territory with impunity. Yes, Cartagia was a madman. But Turhan was a weakling.
What was done, was that the Centauri ended the war the Narn declared.
Yes, they ended it in an unacceptable way (which cannot be laid at Mollari's feet), but that doesn't take away from the fact that the war was of the Narns' choosing, and they had spent the past many years attacking the Centauri, constantly and unprovoked.
But remember, Londo didn’t know anything about the mass drivers and when he found out he was mortified. But Refa said as the PM +/- the next emperor that he needed to go to show the centauri people that he approved. So he knew exactly what was at stake by going along.