I love the fact that Vie doesn’t just give up. He knows his words come across as mere platitudes... and so he finds a way to do something meaningful to apologise - deeds not words. How do you apologise to the dead? By working to save what remains of their living. Sic Transit Vir.
I wish they had added a scene where Vir finds G'Kar in the elevator again after the centauri leave and G'Kar thanks & forgives Vir, explicitly mentioning that he learned of what he did for his people.
@@Diego-zz1df I think that would have been the wrong step. It's a nice idea maybe but ultimately it would taint the fact that Vir did it to do a good thing. If it becomes that it instead is either that he did it to appease G'kar but also implies that G'kar would be obligated to forgive Vir, which I don't think he was.
@@Ugh-Fudge_Bwana Not QUITE. He wasn't made liaison until Season 3, but this was no doubt on his mind as he made the choice. He would have done it regardless of what G'Kar said, though.
A lot is said about Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik as great actors on this show -- the best ever made, in my opinion -- and they deserve all the praise and then some. But Stephen Furst demonstrates in this scene -- and many others, by the way -- that he can stand toe to toe with such powerful actors; not only helping them deliver such amazing performances in scene after scene, but also holding his own as a truly sympathetic character with a quiet inner strength which can endure some truly limbic-system breaking moments and still remain on the path to greatness. Flounder is friggin' underrated.
Vir was a saint, but exactly because he was an assistant he didn't really have that many oportunities to show what he could do, he was mostly Londo's sidekick
In terms of professionalism I give S.F. points for the speech about how after jumping into a 5 mile chasm during a direct 30 megaton blast, they believe that Sheridan may not have survived -- and not losing his poker face.
You know the thing is, Vir could have simply kept his back turned and said nothing. He chose to face his people's sins and say something. And even at this point in his life when he's at his most pained and hopeless, G'Kar restrains his rage and pain and takes a second to, in his own way, teach the young man in a way he won't quickly forget. And to Vir's credit, he learned the lesson.
yeah, i'm pretty sure right after that is when he started looking for a way to do more than just say "i'm sorry", which led to his "abrahamo linconi" scheme..
kill3456 "He said…"We're wrong. The hatred between our people can never end until someone is willing to say, 'I'm sorry'. And try and find a way to make things right again, to atone for our actions."" - Dr. Franklin, relaying the final message of the Centauri Emperor Turhan to G'kar.
And that's part of why Vir wound up the Emperor. Sometimes you just have to stand up and try to make things right, even when it wasn't all your own fault.
Something I was trying to highlight when I posted this and am not sure I succeeded -- in this scene, both Vir and G'Kar transcend their primary flaws in subtle ways. Vir overcame his natural shyness, aversion of conflict, and reluctance to speak up. G'kar overcame his rage and grief. It was only a small step in the right direction in both cases, but the two racial enemies achieved a very brief meeting of the minds that began to send both men on a better path.
Just look at the expression on Vir's face right at the end of that scene. There's a determination there. G'kar just gave Vir a challenge, and that face is Vir accepting it.
Vir might have been the character in all of B5 with the strongest moral center. He's a retiring individual until the time came to do the right thing, and then he acted with a lot of determination and no regard for the personal cost. Good qualities for an Emperor.
Rewatching this scene -- the great thing about it is, I feel like there's a part of G'Kar that DOES want to forgive. He simply cannot. Yet he doesn't target Vir for revenge, either (though I'm sure there's also a part of him that's tempted) -- he uses the knife to cut his own hand, after all. As a result, this winds up as a confrontation between two genuinely decent men who are -- at least at this moment in time -- forced to be on opposite sides. Compelling stuff.
Well there is also the terms of the Narn surrender to the Centauri. If a Narn kills a Centauri 500 Narn are to be killed, starting with the Narn's family. But I also agree with you as well.
At this point, G'Kar realizes Vir is not responsible for the deeds of those higher up the Centauri hierarchy. But he also has to tell him Vir can't apologize on their behalf. While he couldn't forgive, Vir wasn't somebody to take revenge against either, because he had no power to cause or stop the massacre.
@@shadowpod13 Yeah, this too. But I like to think G'Kar would have still sustained from killing Vir. If not because of the inevitable organized retribution against other Narns, but also that if an Ambassador of Narn killed a Centauri on Babylon 5, it would have done nothing good for the Narns. Other races might have seen Narns as unstable and disrespectful to neutral territory and the Centauri would have gained a propaganda point. But I also like to think it's because G'Kar had grown as a person.
Rewatching old Vir scenes (for obvious reasons RIP Stephen) and I think this is probably the most important scene in his character arc. This is where he stops just quietly trying to talk people into doing the right thing and decides to actually start actively trying to make the galaxy a better place (in his own, quiet, unassuming way). Ultimately it leads to him becoming savior and leader of his people.
This scene is important to the "Journey of Vir," but I think his 'wish' to Mr. Morden was a bigger turning point for him. "... Can your associates do that for me, Mr. Morden?" LOL
His wish to Morden shows that Vir already has his eyes open. This scene with G'kar is him taking those open eyes and being forced to gaze into the cold abyss.
Every drop of blood was equal to a few thousand Narns. The gravity of that as he is forced to relive and recount the horror in front of someone who resembles the face of blame for the act. He was holding back his anger and his anguish.
The desire to change means nothing unless you're willing to create change. This is the moment Vir changes from being a good person who can see the world as it is to being a good person who tries to change the world to be a better place.
I think deep down G'Kar knows that Vir is a good man that means what he says, but at the same time a single apology from one Centauri doesn't even begin to redress the damage done to his people.
@@robertbusek30 A lot of water has passed under the bridge between the two events. Londo in that time has schemed to free Narn, and Vir had killed the worst offender (Cartagia) and helped to kill the second worst (Reefa). By the time G'Kar forgave Londo, he could easily see that there was nothing to forgive Vir for.
I have seen Andreas in many different productions.... if he is playing a bad guy, a good guy, or an alien.... he speaks with such confidence and authority, you buy everything he says.... exceptional actor. Everytime he talks, I am amazed that someone can portray that much emotion, with few words, and their entire face covered in rubber!
If G'kar would have had that "Oh they are all monsters so it's ok" excuse, he would have never been able to become basically the buddha of his people, he would have remained the bitter conniving ass we met when the show started.
@@manuelaparcedo417 True, but at this time in his life he isn't thinking about enlightenment. So I think the statement still stands, the idea that any of the Centauri could be capable of compassion and yet are still allowing what is happening to his people is more painful to him than if they were all just sadistic monsters.
+WatcherOfShadows I particularly love the fact that Vir finds a way to respond in action and that further adds to his growth as a character. Probably the only way you can try to make amends for your world's mistreatment of another race... is to go against the grain try and make things better for those who remain. That's the only way you can apologise to the dead.... and I absolutely believe it's his scene that convicts him and moves him beyond being merely a person of good intention to a person who acts for good.
One thing I love about this scene is that when G'kar starts saying "dead" over and over, his voice changes. He starts out strong and angry and moves to pained and near tears. It's as if he wanted to say "Then I cannot forgive" as a scathing chastisement, and instead says it as a pained admission.
Very poignant when you look at Londo's very long night. "You said nothing. It didn't matter if they'd stopped. It didn't matter if they'd listened. You were a witness with an obligation to speak out". Vir tried telling them, he spoke out. That's why he deserves to be emporer. That's why he deserves to live. Damn this show is so good.
I love how JMS put his characters in these situations. I think he liked when they had no choice but to face up to the result of their decisions. So many of the best scenes are one on one.
Rest in heaven Andreas Katsulas. And thank you for giving us G'kar, by far the most powerful character I have the pleasure of watching, knowing, analyzing, and loving.
The Emperor and a holy man try to find a path to compassion and understanding. I like to imagine there's an unfilmed scene where Vir is in G'kar's quarters (maybe the meeting in "And the Rock Cried Out" where G'kar pulls out a sheaf of identity papers from some of the Narns rescued by Vir and places them, one by one, down on the table saying "Alive. All alive." "I heard what you said." Vir stammers. "I know it doesn't make things right." "No," replies G'kar. "Things are not right. But _you_ are. And I was wrong-- to tell you I can never forgive."
What really makes this scene so powerful is the underlying symbology involved. G'kar can't forgive Vir over all the "spilled blood" between their two planets. And yet, G'kar can't hold Vir responsible for that "spilled blood" either. So, he turns his back and walks away from him, leaving Vir to suffer alone in the silence that the now "spilled blood" of the Narn have left him in.
I was talking about the war that Londo started. I believe that if Turhan was still alive then he would have also apologized, given that he had intended to apologize to the Narn for similar previous actions by the Centauri. Unfortunately he died before all of this.
Daniel Haire Perhaps it was fortunate, for Turhan at least, that he did not live to see what he perceived as the greatest work of his life undone by his underlings. His last words to Londo were most telling.
Can't like that post, I'll just wanna start crying. Thankfully, I met Biggs briefly at a convention once, and also Andreas, sadly, all I was able to get signed was the con program, and that's long lost. But still, meeting him, and Peter Jurasik at times was epic.
@@JnEricsonx I met Michael O'Hare on a couple occasions, one with a local SF club (was with the group that brought him to dinner before the meeting) and once at a convention I worked on.
Has any show ever held such high quality performances as this one? G'Kar and Londo were brilliant but Vir was always my favourite character. How he, alone seemed uncorrupted by Mr. Morden is a measure of his soul. A truly mammoth performance
1:19 Vir wished that there was something he could do. Later, he was in a position where there was something he could do, and he did do it. I like to think G'Kar remembered this moment and had a new-found appreciation for Vir,. RIP Stephen and Andreas. Amazing actors taken before their time.
I'm watching Babylon 5 during the night bombing in Kyiv, Ukraine. It's still impossible to sleep. 25 years ago, when I watched it for the first time, I was struck by the acting and this scene in particular. But now it impresses me even more. Now it is not just an abstract good scene in the series, now I UNDERSTAND what it is about.
I did like the fact that, as much as G'Kar hated Centauri for a long time, he actually did seem to realize that Vir was not like the monsters he thought they all were. This is probably best shown when Londo wants to get rid of G'Kar (not really, but Vir doesn't know that) and tells Vir to go and give G'Kar some bogus information. I believe Londo says that Vir is the only Centauri who G'Kar will accept as doing a good deed just for the sake of it.
G'Kar really matured over the course of the show from the time when this scene was filmed. He still held onto a fundamental dislike of everything Centauri, but was willing to work with certain ones when the need arose like when Londo revealed Refa's schemes to G'Kar and he arranged to be there with a squad of Narn troopers to beat him to death.
Vir was taking hate for the deeds of his race. And he actually tried explaining to G'Kar how powerless he was to change anything, even though he wanted. But G'Kar is also right: even if you're not complicit or agreeing with something your people do, you can't apologize for them either.
It was sad that there wasn't more interaction between G'Kar and Vir. G'Kar never showed Vir anything but contempt; Londo claimed that G'Kar had grown to respect - even trust him after how Vir helped his people on Minbar, but there was never much evidence of it.
Luckily you can make it up by looking at it now. It's kind of scary how much it mirrors what's happening now in real life. Apparently with enough to wait 200 years to get to where they are
Thanks for telling me, I downloaded "Voices in the Dark" but I'll probably order it soon since I already have the B5 box sets. I'm so glad they paid tribute to those two great actors, it's really so sad they passed away at such a young age. On the bright side, JMS is involved (script) in a zombie movie, World War Z :D
It's a plain fact. Star Trek was more "episodic" and Bab 5 was serial. If you dropped in to season 4 of Bab 5 out of the blue, you wouldn't know what the heck was happening. But with Star Trek, it wouldn't be a problem.
sunnchilde My first exposure to B5 was in Season 4. The very first episode I saw was "Moments of Transition", and I was hooked immediately. I generally didn't have any problems understanding what was going on, although I didn't know who was right in the conflict between Sheridan and Garibaldi (the answer to that became obvious to me 3 episodes later when I saw "The Face of the Enemy"). The rest was simple enough to figure out, but I was dying to find out how the series got to where it was, so when TNT started showing B5, I made sure I watched the whole series :)
sunnchilde It's not really fair to generalise Star Trek. B5 is about the same length as any of the given Star Trek series, and since they're two very different franchises, it doesn't make much sense to compare apples to oranges. There were a great many equally dramatic and tense scenes in any of the Star Treks. But B5 *thrived,* on those types of scenes, and was as a rule, a far more dramatic series. (Don't get me wrong, I love both B5 and all of the Treks.)
They're not apples and oranges. They're apples and apples. They're both Scifi series. They both have humans and aliens working together. They're similar in nearly every way. You sure can compare them and B5 had much more hard drama than Star Trek. DS9, perhaps, moved more in the direction of "drama" but even they never achieved anything like this.
This what made B5 Epic, the fact that all the characters have a story arc, and how they all changed due to the circumstances of the surrounding activities. It is what makes the show multi watchable due to following each character individually to see the point of change. Watching Vir start out as a bumbling assistant to a failed ambassador (at his appointment) to the Emperor of Centauri within the story arc of the show, and the books "Legion of Fire" Trilogy is so great and inspiring to see.
I think what made G'kar appreciate Vir a lot more from his apology is that it MAY have reminded him of the late Centauri Emperor. They're both GOOD men, and it was a bittersweet reminder that there were more people like him in the Republic, maybe it made hating the Centauri for what they did to his world that much more difficult.
that was a quite hard episode.. when the Emperor comes to B5 to apologice personally to a Narm.. G'Kar acts resentfull at him until right about when the emperor is about to die and relays his apologies throught Franklin.. then G'Kar for some brief moments is literally lighted up with joy and hope.. like he can finally put the shit between them behind.. only for the other Centauris conspiring to utterly destroy that hope and thrust moments later.. Even the face of Londo when he sees how joyfull and forgiving G'Kar becames while knowing they are about to slain a Narn Colony is full of horror and realization of how much this is gonna suck
But in the end he did. At least Londo, if not the whole Centauri people. And he did it for the sake of what he had become, which is, in the end, what forgiveness is for. And the Centauri people ultimately paid the price for the things they had done, and were reborn out of the fires of the bombardment of Centauri Prime more in Vir's image (hopefully), and the wisdom he had gained from G'kar, Delenn, Lennier, Garibaldi, Sheridan, and, of course, Londo.
Vir was always caught in the middle, how many of us have been there and could do nothing cause everyone else is too bust being idiots. B-5 was one of the best series due to showing so many going thru the same crap we all do. Good sci-fi shows us at our best and worst and all the shades of grey between, it's all that that gives us grey hairs. Mom had her soap operas, always with more drama than realistic, I had Trek, Star Wars, B-5 and etc, between the CG and etc it's always humans trying to get somewhere wo going nuts. Even Stargate SG-1 showed this, dif environments and aliens but they were just representations of dif aspects of humanity, they did a great job in all the series, even the bad guy characters.
Katsulas set the bar really high from the very beginning, but by the end of it Jurasik was acting toe to toe with him. I think Boxleitner, Furst and Doyle actually improved their acting as the show progressed.
I think it was this confrontation with G'Kar that caused Vir's actions in a later episode. (JMS always had a long range view of the show.) Vir is later assigned to a post on Mimbarie as an attaché and he uses that post to falsify documents to save several thousand G'Narns by evacuating them from the war zone and getting them the medical treatment they need. "I'm sorry" wasn't enough for G'Kar, and I don't think it was enough for Vir either, so when given the chance Vir acted! IMHO Vir was one of the most underrated and yet one of the best characters in the show.
G'Kar did find out. Because Abrahamo Lincolni protected Narns by having them declared dead, making it look like Vir killed thousands of Narns until the deception was cleared up and it was clear that Vir was underground railroading them to safety. The Narns learned of this before the team had a chance to clean it up, and tried to kill Vir on multiple occasions.
Exactly! Yeah, Andreas always put everything he had into his scenes. I was so sad when I found out that he died :( Oh, if yoy get a hold of the newest B5 movie (I forget the name) they have tributes to Andreas Katsulas and Richard Biggs in the special features. Both are very well done :)
One of the great things about B5 is that you had a wealth of characters who were so fundamentally different in temperament, outlook, and ability; but then JMS would stir the pot and bring forth unexpected character combinations. Think: Vir and G'Kar together in an elevator, what can anyone do with that? But JMS, Katsulas, and Furst take that challenge and deliver.
That's something I want to do eventually, I've read the reviews for the various B5 books and everyone says that it fills in the gaps and answers lots of questions. Think I'm gonna start with "The Long Night of Centauri Prime", Mollari's story was so interesting. :)
there is no question B-5 still rocks! I got nostalgic the other day and found out I could B-5 episodes on the WB website, and I'll tell you the series is still just as good now as it was then. RIP Andres Katsulas
This is where Vir becomes the Centauri equivivalant of Scheindler. You can see the gears turning in Vir's head at the end. He would help thousands to escape.
Amen. I wish Andreas had been alive when Michael York played the role of King Arthur in the musical "Camelot," which I was privileged to see at Wolf Trap (an outdoor stage in northern Virginia) several years ago. I would have =loved= to have seen Andreas cast as Merlin or Pellinore. I realize the Playbill editors probably had space limitations, but I was disappointed to note that the B5 credit was left off Michael York's list of acting credits.
when they say "hard science fiction"... they don't always mean the advancement or level of the science ... the cost of humanity as the razor's edge between life and death becomes sharper and faster with each generation of science... that's hard too.
Yes. I would love to introduce the Jem'Hadar and the Borg to The Shadows. I would love to see a Shadow just cut in to the Borg like butter! Then they would scream and phase back in to hyperspace and everyone would be like "Where the hell did they go?"
Yeah, this is also a great set up for when it is later discovered that Vir has been helping Narns escape through an "underground railroad". You don't question Vir's sincerity or think of it as a hokey plot device because of this scene. Stracynzki is the master.
This is one of those scenes that shows how good the casting was, the cast loved their roles and treated eachother like family...in some scene you can almost see the actors trying to break their own acting barriers and limitations when playing off eachother, they strove to bring out the best in themselves, because their counterpart was doing the same tng was a great show but b5 was perfection every episode, the story the drama everything, i love this show so much
Although thus is a very emotionally powerful scene, I still have to wonder what B5's janitorial service people think finding random bodily fluids at elevator doors.
I like to think that what a lot went on in G'Kar's head while Vir was trying to find the words for the unspeakable. He saw Vir's earnestness and the good in his heart - but it wasn't anything more than a tiny drop onto the burning stove of hatred for the Centauri for what they, as a people, are responsible for. Enough, however, to convince him at the last second to allow Vir to peek into the full extent of his pain over the suffering of his people.
What sucks is G'kar's unknowingly ripping on probably the most decent and moral Centauri there is. But of course, thats the irony for the audience to appreciate.
+Jon Ericson No I think that was the kindest thing G'kar could do at the time for a Centauri and he gave Virr the best answer he could for the time. I say "at the time" because this was before G'kar's spiritual awakening.
+Jon Ericson He's explaining his people's plight in a way that a conflict-avoider like Vir can't avoid. Vir can't avoid the fact that there is now blood on the floor. Saying sorry while avoiding the ongoing problem is not an answer -- Vir had to learn that before he could evolve.
+Alex S The kindest thing -- I think G'Kar only did this because he didn't want to lose sympathy with the free peoples. And it was a spiritual awakening that was manipulated by Kosh; I always wondered if G'Kar ever realized that, and if he did, would it have affected his said awakening.
+Jon Ericson I think, deep down, G'kar was perfectly aware that Vir had absolutely nothing to do with the killing and that he totally meant it when he said that he was sorry.
Andreas Katsulas was absolutely stunning in this role. He forever makes a fool of actors who complain that they can't act "under all those prosthetics." Boy, HE did.
Now I'm thinking of the episode "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" where G'Kar tells Londo he had an obligation to speak out even if nobody would listen (Vir did!) and all he has to do to survive the heart attack is to apologize (Vir did!). Talk about Vir being Londo's conscious! Not sure if this episode counts as foreshadowing, it seems too far removed to have been planned that way, but I wonder if JMS was thinking of this episode when he wrote TVLNoLM episode.
It is amazing how many of the actors from this 1990s TV show have died. I think Stephen Furst was the sixth cast member to pass away. Even the actor who played Zathras died!
I watched the whole series again this summer, I already want to watch it again. The racial tension between the Centauri and Narn was incredibly powerful and really driven by the amazing performances of Andreas Katsulas(RIP) and Peter Jurasik (I think that's how you spell it) My favorite show of all time.
+Paul Wartenberg And yet G'kar understands that well enough despite the depths of his own unconquered rage, that he turns his anger into a teaching moment and rather than lashing out, challenges Vir. And rather than flinching away, Vir accepts the challenge.
that is why he is not raging at Vir but the Centauri in general. G'kar is most certainly aware that little Vir ain't really responsible nor much involved in the misery against his people.
Was there ever a follow up scene between these two, after Vir saved the Narns with the "...Abrahamo Lincolni..." trick? I don't remember one, and if there wasn't, it was a huge, missed opportunity.
The rage....and sadness in G'kar's eyes. Such a wonderful actor. RIP Andreas Katsulas. And RIP Stephen Furst.
On the page, I bet it looked like nothing, but in the hands of two great actors - wow!
I'd forgotten they were both gone. Alas, such a wonderful scene, such brilliant performances. So much said in so few seconds.
I love the fact that Vie doesn’t just give up. He knows his words come across as mere platitudes... and so he finds a way to do something meaningful to apologise - deeds not words. How do you apologise to the dead? By working to save what remains of their living. Sic Transit Vir.
Yeah, pretty sure this was the moment that motivated Vir to start his narn underground railroad.
I wish they had added a scene where Vir finds G'Kar in the elevator again after the centauri leave and G'Kar thanks & forgives Vir, explicitly mentioning that he learned of what he did for his people.
@@Diego-zz1df I think that would have been the wrong step. It's a nice idea maybe but ultimately it would taint the fact that Vir did it to do a good thing. If it becomes that it instead is either that he did it to appease G'kar but also implies that G'kar would be obligated to forgive Vir, which I don't think he was.
@@Ugh-Fudge_Bwana I clicked on this thinking this was that scene.
@@Ugh-Fudge_Bwana Not QUITE. He wasn't made liaison until Season 3, but this was no doubt on his mind as he made the choice. He would have done it regardless of what G'Kar said, though.
The tears at the end of this scene are genuine, and Stephen continued bawling after the cut, stopping production for at least 10 minutes.
And he said he ran after Andreas crying, "I'm sorry! I'm so sorry, Andreas!" The scene is heartbreaking but, I'm sorry, that story is funny.
A lot is said about Andreas Katsulas and Peter Jurasik as great actors on this show -- the best ever made, in my opinion -- and they deserve all the praise and then some. But Stephen Furst demonstrates in this scene -- and many others, by the way -- that he can stand toe to toe with such powerful actors; not only helping them deliver such amazing performances in scene after scene, but also holding his own as a truly sympathetic character with a quiet inner strength which can endure some truly limbic-system breaking moments and still remain on the path to greatness. Flounder is friggin' underrated.
Amen
+kurtjk01 So true.
Vir was a saint, but exactly because he was an assistant he didn't really have that many oportunities to show what he could do, he was mostly Londo's sidekick
Compare that to Londo getting forgiveness from G'Kar later.
In terms of professionalism I give S.F. points for the speech about how after jumping into a 5 mile chasm during a direct 30 megaton blast, they believe that Sheridan may not have survived -- and not losing his poker face.
You know the thing is, Vir could have simply kept his back turned and said nothing. He chose to face his people's sins and say something. And even at this point in his life when he's at his most pained and hopeless, G'Kar restrains his rage and pain and takes a second to, in his own way, teach the young man in a way he won't quickly forget.
And to Vir's credit, he learned the lesson.
yeah, i'm pretty sure right after that is when he started looking for a way to do more than just say "i'm sorry", which led to his "abrahamo linconi" scheme..
Except that Vir is part of the government and a junior delegate for his people.
kill3456 "He said…"We're wrong. The hatred between our people can never end until someone is willing to say, 'I'm sorry'. And try and find a way to make things right again, to atone for our actions."" - Dr. Franklin, relaying the final message of the Centauri Emperor Turhan to G'kar.
And that's part of why Vir wound up the Emperor. Sometimes you just have to stand up and try to make things right, even when it wasn't all your own fault.
Something I was trying to highlight when I posted this and am not sure I succeeded -- in this scene, both Vir and G'Kar transcend their primary flaws in subtle ways. Vir overcame his natural shyness, aversion of conflict, and reluctance to speak up. G'kar overcame his rage and grief. It was only a small step in the right direction in both cases, but the two racial enemies achieved a very brief meeting of the minds that began to send both men on a better path.
Just look at the expression on Vir's face right at the end of that scene. There's a determination there. G'kar just gave Vir a challenge, and that face is Vir accepting it.
+hagamapama Which eventually led to his smuggling Narns to freedom.
Vir might have been the character in all of B5 with the strongest moral center. He's a retiring individual until the time came to do the right thing, and then he acted with a lot of determination and no regard for the personal cost. Good qualities for an Emperor.
This scene is burned into my memory. The power of the acting, the dialogue, chills me all these years later.
Rewatching this scene -- the great thing about it is, I feel like there's a part of G'Kar that DOES want to forgive. He simply cannot. Yet he doesn't target Vir for revenge, either (though I'm sure there's also a part of him that's tempted) -- he uses the knife to cut his own hand, after all. As a result, this winds up as a confrontation between two genuinely decent men who are -- at least at this moment in time -- forced to be on opposite sides. Compelling stuff.
Well there is also the terms of the Narn surrender to the Centauri. If a Narn kills a Centauri 500 Narn are to be killed, starting with the Narn's family. But I also agree with you as well.
Now check out the elevator scene... "I can hear you." LOL
At this point, G'Kar realizes Vir is not responsible for the deeds of those higher up the Centauri hierarchy. But he also has to tell him Vir can't apologize on their behalf. While he couldn't forgive, Vir wasn't somebody to take revenge against either, because he had no power to cause or stop the massacre.
@@shadowpod13
Yeah, this too. But I like to think G'Kar would have still sustained from killing Vir. If not because of the inevitable organized retribution against other Narns, but also that if an Ambassador of Narn killed a Centauri on Babylon 5, it would have done nothing good for the Narns. Other races might have seen Narns as unstable and disrespectful to neutral territory and the Centauri would have gained a propaganda point.
But I also like to think it's because G'Kar had grown as a person.
@@Aivottaja yeah... the last one...
Rewatching old Vir scenes (for obvious reasons RIP Stephen) and I think this is probably the most important scene in his character arc. This is where he stops just quietly trying to talk people into doing the right thing and decides to actually start actively trying to make the galaxy a better place (in his own, quiet, unassuming way). Ultimately it leads to him becoming savior and leader of his people.
This scene is important to the "Journey of Vir," but I think his 'wish' to Mr. Morden was a bigger turning point for him. "... Can your associates do that for me, Mr. Morden?" LOL
@@jedironin380 his wish was a badass moment, but THIS is a turning point.
His wish to Morden shows that Vir already has his eyes open. This scene with G'kar is him taking those open eyes and being forced to gaze into the cold abyss.
G'Kar really sounds like he's barely able to hold it together.
I love how his voice changes as he is saying "Dead" again and again.
Every drop of blood was equal to a few thousand Narns. The gravity of that as he is forced to relive and recount the horror in front of someone who resembles the face of blame for the act. He was holding back his anger and his anguish.
Only a few thousand after using mass drivers on the planet?, man that's not a very large population then.
This show had no shortage of great actors.
Andras Katsulas was one hell of an actor he and Steven Furst knock this scene out of the park. May they rest in peace. - Six
The desire to change means nothing unless you're willing to create change. This is the moment Vir changes from being a good person who can see the world as it is to being a good person who tries to change the world to be a better place.
I think deep down G'Kar knows that Vir is a good man that means what he says, but at the same time a single apology from one Centauri doesn't even begin to redress the damage done to his people.
+SirCraigius No, but it's a start. Vir showed an open mind. He can be taught, so G'kar teaches him. And Vir learned the lesson.
@Mikkel The Red. Indeed. G'Kar's demonstration made Vir stop drifting and realized that he has to act, not simply disagree.
And yet, a few seasons later, he can forgive Londo...
@@robertbusek30 A lot of water has passed under the bridge between the two events. Londo in that time has schemed to free Narn, and Vir had killed the worst offender (Cartagia) and helped to kill the second worst (Reefa). By the time G'Kar forgave Londo, he could easily see that there was nothing to forgive Vir for.
I have seen Andreas in many different productions.... if he is playing a bad guy, a good guy, or an alien.... he speaks with such confidence and authority, you buy everything he says.... exceptional actor.
Everytime he talks, I am amazed that someone can portray that much emotion, with few words, and their entire face covered in rubber!
I think it hurts g'kar more that their are centari like veer, if they were all just monsters it'd make what's happening make more sense.
You mean make it easier for him to hate them if they were all just monsters.
If G'kar would have had that "Oh they are all monsters so it's ok" excuse, he would have never been able to become basically the buddha of his people, he would have remained the bitter conniving ass we met when the show started.
@@manuelaparcedo417 True, but at this time in his life he isn't thinking about enlightenment. So I think the statement still stands, the idea that any of the Centauri could be capable of compassion and yet are still allowing what is happening to his people is more painful to him than if they were all just sadistic monsters.
"I wish there was something I could do" says the future Abrahamo Lincolni.
This was a great character growth moment for Vir.
WatcherOfShadows I wish I could say that Vir is my favourite character from the show. Unfortunately they are ALL my favourite characters.
Belz Zebuth They all are, but G'Kar especially for me
+WatcherOfShadows I particularly love the fact that Vir finds a way to respond in action and that further adds to his growth as a character. Probably the only way you can try to make amends for your world's mistreatment of another race... is to go against the grain try and make things better for those who remain. That's the only way you can apologise to the dead.... and I absolutely believe it's his scene that convicts him and moves him beyond being merely a person of good intention to a person who acts for good.
@@andyk3817 You and Garibaldi.
One thing I love about this scene is that when G'kar starts saying "dead" over and over, his voice changes. He starts out strong and angry and moves to pained and near tears. It's as if he wanted to say "Then I cannot forgive" as a scathing chastisement, and instead says it as a pained admission.
He wants to forgive Vir. But...
You can't. Not genocide.
This scene breaks my heart every time I watch it. Outstanding performances by both actors.
I feel like G'Kar did appreciate Vir's sentiment, but quite understandably could not simply toss him some token absolution...so we get this instead.
Yes, and what "this" is is a lesson that Vir learned from and became a better person. Probably better than an insipidly false absolution.
"All of it Mollari...ALL OF IT!!"
Very poignant when you look at Londo's very long night. "You said nothing. It didn't matter if they'd stopped. It didn't matter if they'd listened. You were a witness with an obligation to speak out". Vir tried telling them, he spoke out. That's why he deserves to be emporer. That's why he deserves to live. Damn this show is so good.
Not to mention that Vir unknowingly echoed the words of emperor Turhan.
I love how JMS put his characters in these situations. I think he liked when they had no choice but to face up to the result of their decisions. So many of the best scenes are one on one.
Rest in heaven Andreas Katsulas. And thank you for giving us G'kar, by far the most powerful character I have the pleasure of watching, knowing, analyzing, and loving.
The Emperor and a holy man try to find a path to compassion and understanding.
I like to imagine there's an unfilmed scene where Vir is in G'kar's quarters (maybe the meeting in "And the Rock Cried Out" where G'kar pulls out a sheaf of identity papers from some of the Narns rescued by Vir and places them, one by one, down on the table saying "Alive. All alive."
"I heard what you said." Vir stammers. "I know it doesn't make things right."
"No," replies G'kar. "Things are not right. But _you_ are. And I was wrong-- to tell you I can never forgive."
Poor Vir ... if all Centauri were like him, none of that would have happened! "I tried telling them but they wouldn't listen ... they never listen!"
I thought I had some awkward elevator rides, but that takes the cake.
What really makes this scene so powerful is the underlying symbology involved. G'kar can't forgive Vir over all the "spilled blood" between their two planets. And yet, G'kar can't hold Vir responsible for that "spilled blood" either. So, he turns his back and walks away from him, leaving Vir to suffer alone in the silence that the now "spilled blood" of the Narn have left him in.
This scene chokes me up EVERY time...G'Kar's rage is a righteous one. Also probably a key lesson for Vir as well.
What's sad about the Centauri is that only Vir realized that someone had to say sorry.
And that's why Vir eventually rose to Emperor.
What about Emperor Turhan?
I was talking about the war that Londo started. I believe that if Turhan was still alive then he would have also apologized, given that he had intended to apologize to the Narn for similar previous actions by the Centauri. Unfortunately he died before all of this.
Daniel Haire Perhaps it was fortunate, for Turhan at least, that he did not live to see what he perceived as the greatest work of his life undone by his underlings. His last words to Londo were most telling.
@@danielhaire6677 None of this would have happened if Turhan was still alive.
Geeze, it also sums up what has happened to the main cast.
Biggs...dead
O'Hare...dead
Conaway...dead
Doyle...dead
Katsulas...dead
Furst...dead
Can't like that post, I'll just wanna start crying. Thankfully, I met Biggs briefly at a convention once, and also Andreas, sadly, all I was able to get signed was the con program, and that's long lost. But still, meeting him, and Peter Jurasik at times was epic.
They have gone to whatever lies between galaxies, beyond the rim...
You forgot:
Tim Choate (Zathras)... dead
@@JnEricsonx I met Michael O'Hare on a couple occasions, one with a local SF club (was with the group that brought him to dinner before the meeting) and once at a convention I worked on.
And now Mira Furlan... so very sad :(
Has any show ever held such high quality performances as this one? G'Kar and Londo were brilliant but Vir was always my favourite character. How he, alone seemed uncorrupted by Mr. Morden is a measure of his soul. A truly mammoth performance
Even in his decency, Vir is still Centauri.
vir coto was such a good soul
1:19 Vir wished that there was something he could do. Later, he was in a position where there was something he could do, and he did do it. I like to think G'Kar remembered this moment and had a new-found appreciation for Vir,.
RIP Stephen and Andreas. Amazing actors taken before their time.
I'm watching Babylon 5 during the night bombing in Kyiv, Ukraine. It's still impossible to sleep.
25 years ago, when I watched it for the first time, I was struck by the acting and this scene in particular. But now it impresses me even more. Now it is not just an abstract good scene in the series, now I UNDERSTAND what it is about.
I did like the fact that, as much as G'Kar hated Centauri for a long time, he actually did seem to realize that Vir was not like the monsters he thought they all were. This is probably best shown when Londo wants to get rid of G'Kar (not really, but Vir doesn't know that) and tells Vir to go and give G'Kar some bogus information. I believe Londo says that Vir is the only Centauri who G'Kar will accept as doing a good deed just for the sake of it.
G'Kar really matured over the course of the show from the time when this scene was filmed. He still held onto a fundamental dislike of everything Centauri, but was willing to work with certain ones when the need arose like when Londo revealed Refa's schemes to G'Kar and he arranged to be there with a squad of Narn troopers to beat him to death.
Vir was taking hate for the deeds of his race. And he actually tried explaining to G'Kar how powerless he was to change anything, even though he wanted. But G'Kar is also right: even if you're not complicit or agreeing with something your people do, you can't apologize for them either.
It was sad that there wasn't more interaction between G'Kar and Vir. G'Kar never showed Vir anything but contempt; Londo claimed that G'Kar had grown to respect - even trust him after how Vir helped his people on Minbar, but there was never much evidence of it.
In universe, I think Londo tried to keep Vir away from G'Kar to protect him.
This is one of my favorite scenes in all of Babylon 5
At the period when Babylon 5 was first airing, l never had time to watch it.
Scenes like this lead me to believe l was really missing out.
Luckily you can make it up by looking at it now. It's kind of scary how much it mirrors what's happening now in real life. Apparently with enough to wait 200 years to get to where they are
This scene's been on my mind a lot the past few days...
Andreas Katsulas' acting is superb, it was emotionally moving as I saw G'Kar's desperation as the war escalated.
Thanks for telling me, I downloaded "Voices in the Dark" but I'll probably order it soon since I already have the B5 box sets. I'm so glad they paid tribute to those two great actors, it's really so sad they passed away at such a young age.
On the bright side, JMS is involved (script) in a zombie movie, World War Z :D
Heck yes!!!! And Vir's hesitation/discomfort is always VERY well done.
This is such a powerful scene! It makes me shake to watch it. Tell me one scene in Star Trek that ever had THIS.
It's a plain fact. Star Trek was more "episodic" and Bab 5 was serial. If you dropped in to season 4 of Bab 5 out of the blue, you wouldn't know what the heck was happening. But with Star Trek, it wouldn't be a problem.
you have that right omigo
sunnchilde My first exposure to B5 was in Season 4. The very first episode I saw was "Moments of Transition", and I was hooked immediately. I generally didn't have any problems understanding what was going on, although I didn't know who was right in the conflict between Sheridan and Garibaldi (the answer to that became obvious to me 3 episodes later when I saw "The Face of the Enemy"). The rest was simple enough to figure out, but I was dying to find out how the series got to where it was, so when TNT started showing B5, I made sure I watched the whole series :)
sunnchilde It's not really fair to generalise Star Trek. B5 is about the same length as any of the given Star Trek series, and since they're two very different franchises, it doesn't make much sense to compare apples to oranges.
There were a great many equally dramatic and tense scenes in any of the Star Treks. But B5 *thrived,* on those types of scenes, and was as a rule, a far more dramatic series.
(Don't get me wrong, I love both B5 and all of the Treks.)
They're not apples and oranges. They're apples and apples. They're both Scifi series. They both have humans and aliens working together. They're similar in nearly every way. You sure can compare them and B5 had much more hard drama than Star Trek. DS9, perhaps, moved more in the direction of "drama" but even they never achieved anything like this.
Great and sad scene, made even sadder knowing both these wonderful actors are no longer with us.
G'kar knows that he is on a different level than Vir, so instead of taking revenge he teaches him a lesson instead.
I loved B5 as a kid. And now watching this scene as an adult, I understand this was more than some somewhat cheesy 90's sci-fi. It was art.
One of the reasons why Babylon 5 was just such an excellent show.
R.I.P. Andreas Katsulas.
This what made B5 Epic, the fact that all the characters have a story arc, and how they all changed due to the circumstances of the surrounding activities.
It is what makes the show multi watchable due to following each character individually to see the point of change.
Watching Vir start out as a bumbling assistant to a failed ambassador (at his appointment) to the Emperor of Centauri within the story arc of the show, and the books "Legion of Fire" Trilogy is so great and inspiring to see.
vir was the centauri the empire needed
The old Republic had to be wiped out first. The noble houses had to be decimated for Vir to lead the survivors to glory.
An EPIC performance from both actors in one of the greatest scenes of this awesome series!
I always come back to this video. Best scene in Babylon 5. Best scene in scifi. Hell... best scene in drama I have ever seen. Bravo.
I think what made G'kar appreciate Vir a lot more from his apology is that it MAY have reminded him of the late Centauri Emperor. They're both GOOD men, and it was a bittersweet reminder that there were more people like him in the Republic, maybe it made hating the Centauri for what they did to his world that much more difficult.
that was a quite hard episode.. when the Emperor comes to B5 to apologice personally to a Narm.. G'Kar acts resentfull at him until right about when the emperor is about to die and relays his apologies throught Franklin.. then G'Kar for some brief moments is literally lighted up with joy and hope.. like he can finally put the shit between them behind.. only for the other Centauris conspiring to utterly destroy that hope and thrust moments later.. Even the face of Londo when he sees how joyfull and forgiving G'Kar becames while knowing they are about to slain a Narn Colony is full of horror and realization of how much this is gonna suck
And thus Abrahamo Lincolni was born.
"...how do you apologize to them?"
"I can't"
"Then i cannot forgive"
Gotta love G'Kar. RIP Andreas Katsulas
But in the end he did. At least Londo, if not the whole Centauri people. And he did it for the sake of what he had become, which is, in the end, what forgiveness is for. And the Centauri people ultimately paid the price for the things they had done, and were reborn out of the fires of the bombardment of Centauri Prime more in Vir's image (hopefully), and the wisdom he had gained from G'kar, Delenn, Lennier, Garibaldi, Sheridan, and, of course, Londo.
It's amazing that G'Kar is able to speak volumes without uttering a word
January 24, 2021. Delenn is sleeping in light. Farewell Mira Furlan, RIP.
WHAT, REALLY?! 😢
Acting and script like this made B5 the best series of all time. This is my fave scene as well. RIP Andreas :(
Thanks for the upload!
Andreas Katsulas does such an excellent performance as G'Kar! So much emotion emulating from under that make-up!
Absolutely heart-wrenching. I literally cry whenever I see that scene.
this show had some of the best scenes and great writting
Vir was always caught in the middle, how many of us have been there and could do nothing cause everyone else is too bust being idiots. B-5 was one of the best series due to showing so many going thru the same crap we all do. Good sci-fi shows us at our best and worst and all the shades of grey between, it's all that that gives us grey hairs. Mom had her soap operas, always with more drama than realistic, I had Trek, Star Wars, B-5 and etc, between the CG and etc it's always humans trying to get somewhere wo going nuts. Even Stargate SG-1 showed this, dif environments and aliens but they were just representations of dif aspects of humanity, they did a great job in all the series, even the bad guy characters.
Katsulas set the bar really high from the very beginning, but by the end of it Jurasik was acting toe to toe with him.
I think Boxleitner, Furst and Doyle actually improved their acting as the show progressed.
I think it was this confrontation with G'Kar that caused Vir's actions in a later episode. (JMS always had a long range view of the show.) Vir is later assigned to a post on Mimbarie as an attaché and he uses that post to falsify documents to save several thousand G'Narns by evacuating them from the war zone and getting them the medical treatment they need. "I'm sorry" wasn't enough for G'Kar, and I don't think it was enough for Vir either, so when given the chance Vir acted! IMHO Vir was one of the most underrated and yet one of the best characters in the show.
I wonder if G'Kar ever found out about Abraham Lincolni....
I bet Abraham Lincolni came about on account of this confrontation
G'Kar did find out. Because Abrahamo Lincolni protected Narns by having them declared dead, making it look like Vir killed thousands of Narns until the deception was cleared up and it was clear that Vir was underground railroading them to safety. The Narns learned of this before the team had a chance to clean it up, and tried to kill Vir on multiple occasions.
Exactly! Yeah, Andreas always put everything he had into his scenes. I was so sad when I found out that he died :( Oh, if yoy get a hold of the newest B5 movie (I forget the name) they have tributes to Andreas Katsulas and Richard Biggs in the special features. Both are very well done :)
One of the great things about B5 is that you had a wealth of characters who were so fundamentally different in temperament, outlook, and ability; but then JMS would stir the pot and bring forth unexpected character combinations.
Think: Vir and G'Kar together in an elevator, what can anyone do with that? But JMS, Katsulas, and Furst take that challenge and deliver.
That's something I want to do eventually, I've read the reviews for the various B5 books and everyone says that it fills in the gaps and answers lots of questions. Think I'm gonna start with "The Long Night of Centauri Prime", Mollari's story was so interesting. :)
there is no question B-5 still rocks! I got nostalgic the other day and found out I could B-5 episodes on the WB website, and I'll tell you the series is still just as good now as it was then.
RIP Andres Katsulas
This is where Vir becomes the Centauri equivivalant of Scheindler. You can see the gears turning in Vir's head at the end. He would help thousands to escape.
R.I.P Andreas. A wonderful actor. I never get tired of watching the man work, especially this character. The excellence is unparalleled.
Amen. I wish Andreas had been alive when Michael York played the role of King Arthur in the musical "Camelot," which I was privileged to see at Wolf Trap (an outdoor stage in northern Virginia) several years ago. I would have =loved= to have seen Andreas cast as Merlin or Pellinore. I realize the Playbill editors probably had space limitations, but I was disappointed to note that the B5 credit was left off Michael York's list of acting credits.
After this moment I knew there was more to Vir than meets the eye.
G'Kar (well, the Narn in general) sure went through a lot of gloves....
when they say "hard science fiction"... they don't always mean the advancement or level of the science ... the cost of humanity as the razor's edge between life and death becomes sharper and faster with each generation of science... that's hard too.
God how much I have missed this serie, G'kar allways has been one of my favourite characters during the whole series, allways such powerfull lines.
Yes. I would love to introduce the Jem'Hadar and the Borg to The Shadows. I would love to see a Shadow just cut in to the Borg like butter! Then they would scream and phase back in to hyperspace and everyone would be like "Where the hell did they go?"
What amazing scene i loved G'Kar he had such amazing place in the b5 world. Andreas amazing job u are greatly missed
Yeah, this is also a great set up for when it is later discovered that Vir has been helping Narns escape through an "underground railroad". You don't question Vir's sincerity or think of it as a hokey plot device because of this scene. Stracynzki is the master.
Vir cried himself to sleep that day.
would love to see the upload to where everyone finds out Vir was helping Narns Escape the episode of his marriage.
This is one of those scenes that shows how good the casting was, the cast loved their roles and treated eachother like family...in some scene you can almost see the actors trying to break their own acting barriers and limitations when playing off eachother, they strove to bring out the best in themselves, because their counterpart was doing the same tng was a great show but b5 was perfection every episode, the story the drama everything, i love this show so much
And this is why you don't offer platitudes to a people being exterminated.
Great scene. I wish you had let it run for a few more seconds; Vir's reaction is the best part of the scene.
This was also one of my favorite B5 scenes. Some great writing in this show and Andreas Kastulas IMHO was a excellent actor in the role of G'Kar.
Although thus is a very emotionally powerful scene, I still have to wonder what B5's janitorial service people think finding random bodily fluids at elevator doors.
well you do see a day of them in S5....
I like to think that what a lot went on in G'Kar's head while Vir was trying to find the words for the unspeakable. He saw Vir's earnestness and the good in his heart - but it wasn't anything more than a tiny drop onto the burning stove of hatred for the Centauri for what they, as a people, are responsible for. Enough, however, to convince him at the last second to allow Vir to peek into the full extent of his pain over the suffering of his people.
What sucks is G'kar's unknowingly ripping on probably the most decent and moral Centauri there is. But of course, thats the irony for the audience to appreciate.
+Jon Ericson No I think that was the kindest thing G'kar could do at the time for a Centauri and he gave Virr the best answer he could for the time. I say "at the time" because this was before G'kar's spiritual awakening.
+Jon Ericson He's explaining his people's plight in a way that a conflict-avoider like Vir can't avoid. Vir can't avoid the fact that there is now blood on the floor. Saying sorry while avoiding the ongoing problem is not an answer -- Vir had to learn that before he could evolve.
+Alex S The kindest thing -- I think G'Kar only did this because he didn't want to lose sympathy with the free peoples. And it was a spiritual awakening that was manipulated by Kosh; I always wondered if G'Kar ever realized that, and if he did, would it have affected his said awakening.
+Jon Ericson I think, deep down, G'kar was perfectly aware that Vir had absolutely nothing to do with the killing and that he totally meant it when he said that he was sorry.
Of course. That's why he said anything, instead of simply keeping his own back turned.
Andreas Katsulas was absolutely stunning in this role. He forever makes a fool of actors who complain that they can't act "under all those prosthetics."
Boy, HE did.
This scene still gets me.
Now I'm thinking of the episode "The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari" where G'Kar tells Londo he had an obligation to speak out even if nobody would listen (Vir did!) and all he has to do to survive the heart attack is to apologize (Vir did!). Talk about Vir being Londo's conscious! Not sure if this episode counts as foreshadowing, it seems too far removed to have been planned that way, but I wonder if JMS was thinking of this episode when he wrote TVLNoLM episode.
Indeed. And that is why he was often considered to be "weird" by Londo and other Centauri...
really? Awesome! Yeah, he's such a talented writer. I've been debating whether I should read some of his B5 books.
Andreas played Tomalok in TNG so when i first started watching B5 as soon as i saw G'Kar i thought "what the hell is Tomalok doin here HAHA
It is amazing how many of the actors from this 1990s TV show have died. I think Stephen Furst was the sixth cast member to pass away. Even the actor who played Zathras died!
I watched the whole series again this summer, I already want to watch it again.
The racial tension between the Centauri and Narn was incredibly powerful and really driven by the amazing performances of Andreas Katsulas(RIP) and Peter Jurasik (I think that's how you spell it)
My favorite show of all time.
the pity is that G'Kar is raging against the one decent Centauri in Vir. The only one who doesn't deserve that rage.
+Paul Wartenberg And yet G'kar understands that well enough despite the depths of his own unconquered rage, that he turns his anger into a teaching moment and rather than lashing out, challenges Vir. And rather than flinching away, Vir accepts the challenge.
that is why he is not raging at Vir but the Centauri in general. G'kar is most certainly aware that little Vir ain't really responsible nor much involved in the misery against his people.
G'Kar KNOWS that Vir doesn't deserve his rage. That's what kept G'Kar from throttling Vir on the spot
And it was this that led Vir to doing something.
Oddly so much more instructive today.
Was there ever a follow up scene between these two, after Vir saved the Narns with the "...Abrahamo Lincolni..." trick? I don't remember one, and if there wasn't, it was a huge, missed opportunity.