When Did LUFFY Surpass Ace? | ONE PIECE

[@ThatOnePieceTalk]

Full episode here: ua-cam.com/users/liverFLehQWLZA8?feature=share

[@Speez972]

What you think the one piece is I think it’s a prank

[@austindavis980]

Ur boy forgot Luffy was using gear 4 bounce man to fight the animals during time skip

[@austindavis980]

@@justindeliwe8065 how’s it not cannon r u slow do u know remember the time skip where Raleigh was training him which is cannon 🤡 u need help

[@justindeliwe8065]

@@austindavis980 Thank you I do need help. But not from a toxic OP fan because those people are trash.

[@MrSalt-rl7ii]

​@justindeliwe8065 but they talked about how proud he was of his Kong Gun when we saw a flashback to his training with Rayleigh you clown

[@kjk607]

I'd say it was UNDENIABLE when Luffy beat Katakuri. You could make a decent argument for earlier in the Fishmen arc and an even better one during Dressrosa, but it no longer even becomes a debate after the Katakuri fight.

[@Relax_Rombey]

Hell nah ace negs

[@giannialegeh9318]

@@Relax_Rombey didn't ace lose to ore quake blackbeard? The same person who got one shot by magellan. I don't know how you came to that conclusion, but magellan>ace

[@scleless1342]

​@@giannialegeh9318 Magellan > nearly everyone unless Oda blocks the plot armor, so not sure where youre going with that.
Pre-Quake fruit BB was strong enough to scar freaking Shanks! Which shows thay his haki isnt weak. This is farther shown when BB comments that Luffys "haki has grown stronger" proving his observation was already there on Jaya or else he couldnt have detected Luffy's haki levels in a before/after comparison.
BB is basically a Sabo type character: both were already low yonko commander tier fighters with haki alone (BB taking on Shanks and being offered 2nd division commander spot before Ace but turning it down essentially. Sabo having Dragon's "dragon claw" martial arts and haki strong enough to no diff a vice admiral.) then both get powerful Logia devil fruits on top of that propelling them to mid-high commander level (BB able to defeat Ace and Sabo able to stalemate a slightly holding back Fujitora with brand new control of his powers)
Then add the quake power on top of that? Dude aint worth 4 bil for nothin.

[@giannialegeh9318]

@@scleless1342 pre quake blackbeard still lost. Doesn't matter. The facts are the facts. Also, I don't get your point of " He scarred shanks" when that was shanks well before he became a yonko, or even have his battles with mihawk. At the end of the day, pre quake blackbeard still got one shot.

[@Relax_Rombey]

@@giannialegeh9318 magellan doesn’t scale over blackbeard, blackbeard was simply cocky af, even shanks would get packed up by that poison

[@HeyItsNate2]

As soon as Luffy used Red Hawk I knew it was a sign that Luffy is now carrying Ace’s torch

[@sapzicrag9573]

Well said

[@Killua_Uchiha1]

@@sapzicrag9573they said that in the aniem

[@alz397]

@@Killua_Uchiha1lol fr

[@Raine00]

Luffy developed gear 4 during the time skip 💀

[@lucielm]

I have to agree the fight with Doffy in Dresrossa is when Luffy had surpassed Ace in both greatness and strength "WITHIN The story as presented." Meaning, yes Luffy had already surpassed Ace when the timeskip had ended, but as far as the story goes he never showed it off till Dressrosa. So it was those later chapters that it became clear not only to the readers but the world government.

[@GrandMasterZo]

@@lucielmso knocking 50,000 fishmen out wasn’t showcasing his strength, what feat does ace have to compare to the 50,000 fishmen

[@lucielm]

@@GrandMasterZo Ace took out a fleet of ships AFTER doing a flip over them for style points.

[@GrandMasterZo]

@@lucielm that is a pretty great feat 5 boroque works ships yea, but come on 50,000 fishmen 😭

[@bonrick_0494]

@@GrandMasterZogoing toe to toe with yamato probably

[@martinalexander8921]

If you watched the flashback from the fight with doffy it was revealed that he did already have that form. He said he needed it to fight the larger monsters on the island like the giant gorilla and elephant.

[@darkstarplays6315]

I get what Lionel is saying, but I believe the majority is right here, just because we didn’t see Gear 4 doesn’t mean he didn’t have it, just means he didn’t have to use it
Edit: Thanks for the 2.9k likes guys! Really enjoyed the conversations we’ve had

[@Dctae95]

Facts he learned gear forth while training with Rayleigh just didn’t need it until he fought doffy

[@blxcklxffy]

Literally it’s so stupid to argue otherwise guys want him to use gear 4 on people who don’t even have haki

[@andrewstephenson5825]

I think its fair by the question being "at what point in the story" since Luffy having Gear 4 hadn't been revealed, although that might just be pointless nitpicking from me, who is just starting Skypeia (or however its spelled I forget)

[@darkstarplays6315]

@@andrewstephenson5825 I getcha, but if a fighter doesn’t have to use his most powerful move (you got a ways to go and probably shouldn’t be in this convo but I won’t tell ya to leave) does that make him weaker than when he shows it? How you liking One Piece so far?

[@blxcklxffy]

@@andrewstephenson5825 ah I’m so jealous 😂😂 we’re waiting for you in Wano come at any cost!

[@bossrangoon3711]

Ace was a 2nd Commander, like the guys said fighting people like Yamato. While an argument could be made for earlier, a definitive point where Luffy surpassed Ace would be WCI where he defeated Katakuri. While bounties aren’t an indicator of strength, this is also the point where Luffy’s bounty surpassed Ace going from 500mil to 1.5bil, surpassing Ace’s 550mil.

[@charlescooks9360]

The commander numbers weren't a indicator of strength

[@bossrangoon3711]

@@charlescooks9360 Sure, Ace was the 2nd Division Commander and that doesn't necessarily translate from crew to crew directly to something like lets say Queen? However, we saw Ace going toe-to-toe with Aokiji, Yamato, Jinbei, and was clearly on the same tier as Marco, Jozu, and Vista at least, which were 3 of the strongest in Whitebeards Crew. If we take that and say Ace was at least Mid-High Commander level, Luffy after the Katakuri fight still tracks as the point he surpassed Ace.

[@insight1239]

@@bossrangoon3711I’m pretty sure Ace wasn’t the 2nd strongest commander
I’d put Jody, Vista and BB over him

[@insight1239]

⁠​⁠@@bossrangoon3711btw Yamato was wearing sea stone prism and was about 3 years ago from current Yamato and toe to toe with Aokiji is a stretch
Only Jimbei was a toe to toe fight, And gear 4 Luffy vs doflamingo would win against Jimbei and Ace

[@chrisiendo]

@@insight1239i think ace could be doflammingo

[@hypershadic1151]

Imo, for this argument, it doesn't matter where Luffy surpasses Ace in strength, it matters when he obtained the means to defeat him. Pre-time skip Luffy stood 0 chance, as it's stated that the only reason Luffy was able to beat Crocodile, another logia user, was because water turned crocodiles sand into mud, and not because water works on every fruit user. Even if the water trick *did* work, it still wouldn't have mattered as Ace's fire could evaporate any water Luffy had on him in an instant. I think that the earliest Luffy has a chance is when he mastered haki during the timeskip, but the moment that he surpassed Ace was when he acquired Gear 4, as Ace not only loses his advantage of invulnerability, but also loses his advantage of being the only one out of the two who can fly. It's honestly arguable whos flight is faster, but I'd like to place my bets on Luffy for that one as well. The man found a way to take soru to the level BEYOND the next level with bound man, so I don't feel there's a way for Ace to out speed Gear 4.
Before haki, Ace takes it. After haki, it's a relatively fair fight. After Gear 4, Ace gets folded like an omelet.

[@soundaholixx]

I really like the idea of the aspect of "Greatness" because let's be honest, main crew or not, The Straw Hats have left a very important mark ever since the VERY START of their journey, and i'd wager to say that Enies Lobby Alone puts them in a position of power towards the Government that VEEERY few Pirates can even imagine having

[@SenatiaA]

I agree with you. Enies Lobby showed that Straw Hats were a real threat, and what happened at Sabody cemented it.

[@Orion_44]

Late, but I'd argue Luffy surpassed Ace in greatness after the breakout of Impel Down, considering Ace was the Second Division Captain of Whitebeard's crew, at least Top 5 on a Yonko crew

[@Kevin-qp6ow]

@@Orion_44 Second D commander of the strongest pirate crew, offered an invitation to the Warlords within his first 3 years of being a pirate, literally beat most of the important new world pirates that we saw at marineford. Ace was also that guy.

[@Kevin-qp6ow]

@@Orion_44 Didn't someone say that he was the strongest person in Impel Down?

[@indebtfolife]

​@@Kevin-qp6ow Also a big push for his greatness is him being the only son of Gol D. Roger the Pirate King.

[@vu1ture668]

Y'all are downplaying Ace. Dressrosa Luffy was YC3 at best, while the Ace Light Novels showed that Ace was a high YC2 or low YC1. Luffy surpassed Ace in strength when he activated Snakeman for the first time against Katakuri, becoming a YC1.

[@arberx5728]

Yeah for sure.
ACE Flucht Akoji, many people forget that

[@jukethebox6879]

id say after dofy, ace already had a reputation of setting a whole island on fire

[@Ra-pc9we]

Fire spreads

[@Big_Dude1]

​@Ra-pc9we so? Ace just being at the island where chopper lived stopped the snow from snowing and ace created an infinite fire ( this might be cap I forgor),but ace just starting a fire that could light the entire place on fur is crazy.

[@shemz244]

Bro was waffling.

[@Ohmylanta686]

It happened while training with Rayleigh.

[@hunbi1875]

Yall are high

[@ImOnGelato]

Ace had all 3 haki types

[@ryanhickson6399]

​@@ImOnGelatoso did luffy

[@ImOnGelato]

@@ryanhickson6399 yes but we're talking about ace who has way more mastery over them, he has way more experience which would win him the fight

[@kflow250]

​@@ImOnGelatohe didn't have more experience anymore

[@kevo973]

As soon as ACE died , he passed em

[@enumaelish4]

Facts

[@lonelyskull194]

THATS WHAT IM saying

[@cnovajr]

Bruh hn

[@tonymoore6438]

True facts lol all his feats are irrelevant now that he’s dead lol

[@imamfproblem1320]

Thank you! Luffy was holding his own more then him with no hali at the marine war in my opinion 💯

[@asmrzarr]

Yall are such a classy group talkin bout one piece im dead but i love it

[@_Kurumi_Tokisaki_]

I 100% agree that Fishman Island Luffy surpassed Ace for 2 reasons. Number 1: When Luffy used Red Hawk against Hody, you saw Ace's silhouette using Fire Fist. It was obviously conveyed that Luffy acquired Ace's fire & that his brother was always with him, but I also think that was Ace literally passing the torch to him.
2. An exhausted Luffy ANNIHILATED half of the Noah which is the size of an entire CITY. Luffy would've destroyed the entire thing had the Sea Kings not interfered to preserve JoyBoy's Prophecy.

[@Reesemike]

Bro just constricted his whole argument in 3 words

[@smittypwnz]

I would either after the Doflamingo fight or after the Cracker fight. Those battles were integral to Luffys growth and experience using G4. He would often run out of steam and if the opponent tanked or evaded him he was prone to being defeated after exerting himself through G4.
Ace was able to go the distance with Yamato, Jinbei, Pre-timeskip Blackbeard. Fought with Whitebeard and not get one-shot. Not to mention he was able to stalemate admirals in Marineford after being exhausted and starved in prison. He has pretty good stamina.

[@clintgahm1495]

He literally trained G4 while getting absolutely bodied by Rayleigh exposing all of it's flaws and weaknesses. That's quite the headcannon assuming that Luffy's entire two years devoted to improve or die levels of Rayleigh training was somehow insignificant compared to twenty minutes of one sided gorilla beat down showing how strong he already was.

[@allmightygod100]

When the giant fist blew a hole into ace and he died, i think thats when he surpassed his brother

[@wadeseba6637]

I have a fun one for this. In an sbs oda implied that a move ace used once was one you could only use if awakened. Because of what we know about awakening being your body catching up to your df, I think it would be cool to try to consider luffy wasn’t even nearly as powerful as ace until the fight with kaido!

[@jorgitosilva]

Luffy fighting during dressrosa is the same strength as in Fishmen island, and punk hazard... neither of those challenged him strength wise... so yeah, IF we can assume hear 4th luffy beats ace... he became stronger during the time skip...

[@luk4s56]

i dont think so, i believe it would had been same as the fight with doffy, but without whole squad to carry him while he took couple of naps

[@smokemidigofoolish5797]

Agreed. People gotta remember pre time skip there were barely any strength increases for Luffy, he was just a monster and a battle genius who was good at analyzing first fights then countering during second fights. I’d say only times he had actual strength increases instead of just battle experience was Ennies Lobby, the Timeskip, Whole Cake, and Wano

[@BigJC777]

if you read the light novel and inform yourself a bit on ace you could see he was a top tier who could just raze an island just like he almost did against blackbeard. ace would rawdog doffy, hody and probably also cracker. katakuri tho would probably beat him but it would be close

[@fly2dope702]

When Luffy pulled up to the 3 admirals 😏 used his battle smarts.

[@david95ms]

To think that luffy with gear 4 would barely put luffy on par with the whute beard crew, he was truly an ant in the middle of a storm

[@monke1419]

Ya’ll… like in wano lol. Ace clashed with admirals and yonko throughout his life. While having his own crew he already had armament and observation, and it’s stated he had been using conquerors the most because he already awakened it when he was 10. This same non whitebeard crew ace made his way to wano and was equal to base Yamato. Ace also has really good stamina since he and jinbe fought for like almost a week straight prior to him joining to whitebeard pirates even despite jinbe stating to have an elemental advantage over ace. By the time he had been on the whitebeard crew for only 100 days, he had already developed advanced observation haki future sight, and yet he was stated by thatch (who trained him the most at the time) to be best at conquerors haki, which just puts into perspective how good his conquerors was.
He humbled a vice admiral, and on his 100th sparring match with a medicated whitebeard where they needed to be clashing on an empty island because they’d destroy the ship, ace knocked whitebeard’s weapon out of his hands during one of their clashes. This was all only after 100 days, and ace continued to be on this crew for years. The commander ranks are stated to have nothing to do with strength, so ace should likely be able to scale to any of Marcos feats for whatever they’re worth.
Ace losing to black beard with one fruit just goes to show how powerful black beard was, and how much stronger he is now with two fruits and two years to learn how to use them better. The Blackbeard fight isn’t an anti-feat, because we later see ace clash equally with aokiji, and later clash with akainu. It’s literally stated that the main reason he was overpowered by akainu when they clashed was due to the elemental devil fruit counter that akainu had over ace. Meaning if not for that elemental counter, ace’s clash with akainu would look more similar to his equal clash with aokiji since the admirals back then were relative. Especially akainu and aokiji, who fought for 10 days. He didn’t even die as a result of his fight with akainu. He died because luffy tripped while running away and akainu decided to go for luffy, so ace saved him. The admirals themselves have advanced observation haki future sight and advanced armament haki as shown in marineford, so ace clashing with them like he did makes ace having advanced armament very possible since he could already match the observation haki side of things with his own future sight. We’ve even seen recently that aokiji has advanced conquerors, and that means akainu obviously should as well. Ace being shown to be capable of clashing equal blows with both of these characters is saying a lot. I think he’d lose against aokiji and akainu in a 1v1, it’d still be a close fight since we never saw a full fight between them. Probably not unlike what we saw from garp recently.
Ace is him. He was also implied to eventually reach near these top tier level characters back in his wano flashbacks where a way weaker ace was mouthing off about being there to kill kaido which he obviously couldn’t do at the time and still wouldn’t be able to do in marineford lol. But he clashed with similar top tiers in marineford through the admirals, a medicated whitebeard during sparring matches, and he scales at least to Marco, and Marco had some notable feats in wano like clashing with big mom (who I believe is weaker than the admirals) who was fighting base kaido. Listen, Ace isn’t beating big mom, he’s not beating the admirals, and he’s not beating base kaido, but he could definitely clash and fight them. Wano luffy is when he surpassed ace. Prolly like around when he figured out conquerors coating or some time around there when he was fighting kaido. Quite playin with ace. Ace > sabo for now too btw.

[@hungrynibba4152]

What is bro on abt 💀

[@theroseproject9681]

If you watched the show you’d know

[@dphantom1314]

Ima defend Lynel here. He's saying that he doesn't believe the Luffy only using the techniques and abilities he showcased at Fishman Island could beat Ace. I personally disagree. I think Luffy doesn't need Gear 4 to beat Ace. Maybe he might use Snake Man if Ace plays the fight more evasively but that's about it.

[@Xarxes104]

Not until he plot armored Katakuri and asspull learned advanced observation haki.

[@nexist__fade9143]

tbh i think it was right after dressrosa when he fought katakuri that kind of solidified it cause during his fight with doflamingo he had help from law and def struggled a bit

[@zombieprodigyz]

Luffy on fishman island had access to gear 4 bouncy man and snake man. He simply didnt have to use it. But I do think Ace would have had the ability to beat luffy at this stage. The turning points were either during the fight with katakuri where luffy honed his observation haki, OR when luffy trained in wano unlocking ryuo. But honestly arguements like these cant be made because we simply did not see enough of ace,s combat strength. We only know the titles he was given while on whitebeards crew and the flashbacks to his past battles (which were not in much detail.)

[@Mwuff7775]

Just because he had access to Gear 4, does /not/ mean he knew how to fully utilize it, thats why in the Dofy fight he didn't win immediately after pulling out Gear 4. Its iterative yall, growth doesn't happen in steps, its a curve.

[@curtmc]

I personally believe he truly surpassed Ace in Wano.
Maybe he would’ve put up a good fight etc post time skip etc with his Gear 4, but Whole Cake Island + Wano was where he truly evolved.
Timeskip just got him to the starting point towards where Ace was.

[@afrothunder1082]

It’s not debatable luffy was stronger before, Luffy is just the main character and we follow his entire journey, we didn’t follow Ace for all that long

[@Eggwastaken969]

Whole cake island specifically after he beat katakuri

[@sleepykami6566]

It’s a weird debate because if we really break it down, Ace went all the way to Wano where Ryuo Haki is and was a division commander in a Yonkos crew. If We were introduced to ace even just 1 year ago he for sure would’ve been shown to have haki. Instead we got the version of Ace that, while powerful, was incredibly weak compared to even Doflamingo based off the fact that the advanced stages in haki were introduced so much later in the series.
And I’m not saying this because Ace is weak. I’m saying that Ace by all rights should’ve had a bounty rivaling Katakuri outright. He should’ve had Armament, he should’ve had Conquerors. Instead we got an over reliant devil fruit user who lost to Blackbeard because he had no Armament to counter BB. Ace was someone that was supposed to be the benchmark for Luffys progress. We got the main character wanting to be the Pirate King but here’s a guy casually destroying marine ships with a Hiken.
I remember seeing someone say that If Ace were still alive he’d be much stronger than Current Luffy and I just can’t see that. He was designed to be so reliant on his devil fruit power that he grew incredibly stagnant. He was useless against Blackbeards Vortex, and then they slapped seastone cuffs on him and he immediately became a normal human crying and screaming.

[@405Fattz]

That friend who just likes to hear themselves talk😂😂

[@Tako101]

When Ace died Luffy became both greater and stronger.

[@NotMadA47.1]

Ace’s death. A baby is more powerful than a corpse.

[@Aizen.Sousuke686]

A corpse can still suffocate a baby

[@Mrtshirt891]

​@@Aizen.Sousuke686Cap cus:
Strength:baby>corpse(it can't move)
Speed:baby>corpse(it can't move)
IQ:baby>corpse(it can't think)
Battle IQ:baby>corpse(it can't think)
Durability:baby>corpse(it's already dead)
Endurance:baby>corpse(can't endure much as it's dead)
Winner:baby(6:0)

[@julien156]

It’s Fishman Island. When he used Conquerers Haki on thousands of Fishmen, I knew Ace wasn’t on his level.

[@dawkins2101]

When ace got that fist through his chest😂

[@roberteospeedwagon44]

I’d say it happened during the timeskip when he was training with Rayliegh.

[@t-money24]

He surpassed him in impel down-marine ford 😂

[@karriemramzy9256]

Nah​@@t-money24

[@sneakyonthebeat]

@@t-money24????????????????

[@adolphgracius9996]

Luffy had gear 4 fishman island my boyyy

[@Shabazz117]

The ace novel states that ace actually had advanced observation haki taught to him by thatch and he was naturally talented with armament haki. He nearly fought a medicated white beard to a standstill. Having to dodge attacks that future sight told ace he'd die from if they connected so white beard wasn't holding back at all. In fact he said he had to fight ace at his strongest so ace wouldn't get himself killed in the new world. Ace was probably relevant to wano arc imo

[@BigJC777]

id say wano is a stretch but katakuri level is an argument to be made

[@anmolt3840051]

Yamato had those cuffs on while fighting Ace

[@juanfisi]

He had g4 back then too, its the same luffy

[@queenthinng4822]

I’d say Luffy surpassed Ace in greatness and in strength at around Dressrosa. Considering Luffy had gear 4 in his pocket before then it’s fair to say that he was stronger before then, but I think that moment, and specifically liberating Dressrosa in that way is a very similar thing to what Whitebeard did in his time.

[@kjk607]

I can understand an argument for Luffy surpassing Ace in greatness when he became the "5th Yonko" but imo he surpassed Ace after escaping Impel Down and even earlier after beating Moriah (his 2nd warlord).

[@Relax_Rombey]

@@kjk607 what are you smoking?😂😂😂😂

[@Relax_Rombey]

@@kjk607 pre ts luffy is an ant to ace

[@Relax_Rombey]

@@kjk607 Base kaido destroyed wano act 1 luffy neg diff. Oldbeard was stated to be the strongest pirate and ace was actually pushing him, 1 and a half year later he fought a Yami blackbeard to extreme diff, while fruitless blackbeard already scarred on guard shanks and instilled fear into him.

[@kjk607]

@@Relax_Rombey you sucking on Ace's meat way too hard lil bro. Get you a donut and chill out.

[@ismaelmartinez3687]

Im his head it made sense. When he started talking he knew there was no argument 😂

[@fake_robin9045]

Not a lot of people know this but ace was a top tier who had really good haki he would fight whitebeard almost everyday to try to beat him

[@clintgahm1495]

It was also stated that if he had actually been strong enough to be a real threat they wouldn't have kept him alive and taken on board. Ace tried fighting Whitebeard 100 times and after all that the closest he ever came to winning was inflicting a minor burn.

[@Mr-bp8ef]

My guy doesn't know that luffy had gear4 up his sleeve way before don flamingo and fishman island😂😂😂

[@quatelquandor4803]

I would say Whole Cake island 💯

[@paulhobbs2467]

When luffy lived and ace got game overed

[@theeasypeasysquad4169]

Second commander of whitebeard pirates. So i would say as soon as Luffy defeated katakuri, first commander, he definitely surpassed Ace. Maybe he did before but after wci he was definitely stronger. Problem is they didn't show ace with haki as much pre timeskip.

[@mobkun3316]

Whole Cake Island

[@EddieGengar94]

I think before the timeskip Luffy and Ace are at least close in strength but in power Ace takes the win you need haki to damage your logia

[@Relax_Rombey]

Nope ace literally showed relativity to admirals while luffy was fodder af

[@giannialegeh9318]

​@@Relax_Rombeyhow did ace show relativity to the admirals? That's like saying marco showed relativity to the admirals. Does that make sense to you?

[@EddieGengar94]

@@giannialegeh9318 bro i think his bain is busted lol

[@EddieGengar94]

@@Relax_Rombey wend?

[@Buggy_DClown]

@@Relax_Rombeyclashing with someone doesn’t mean you are even close to being relative + none of the admirals were trying a bit
When an admiral semi-tried against ace he got one shot 🤷‍♂️

[@apindakut]

He literally surpassed him at fishmsn island due to haki being learnt. Now it was stated in a vivre card that ace had possessed all 3 types of haki but he never used them on screen in a fight so his feats are toppled by luffy’s in fishman island

[@cmrasavong]

Man really tried to get gear 4th outta the picture

[@EddieGengar94]

Luffy surpass Ace as soon ashe learned basic Armament haki

[@Relax_Rombey]

Nah lmao, ace scales above katakuri

[@EddieGengar94]

@@Relax_Rombey HE WHAT?! Bro what are you smoking, No

[@theofantaye7503]

​@@EddieGengar94 he does dude

[@Relax_Rombey]

@@EddieGengar94 why are you downplaying ace? Base kaido destroyed wano act 1 luffy neg diff. Oldbeard was stated to be the strongest pirate and ace was actually pushing him, 1 and a half year later he fought a Yami blackbeard to extreme diff, while fruitless blackbeard already scarred on guard shanks and instilled fear into him.

[@giannialegeh9318]

​@@Relax_Rombey😂. Ace lost to pre quake blackbeard, who got one shot by magellan. So is magellan stronger than katakuri?

[@alexg6849]

Bro ace would’ve scaled up 😅 lol

[@tidul8726]

The 2nd commander of the wb pirates is being slept on

[@randomromantic7462]

For both STRENGTH & GREATNESS, then Dressrosa at the earliest. For just STRENGTH, you could argue Fishman Island

[@dre5229]

I think the real problem is the way Oda is inconsistent with his portrayals of strength from characters. Right now he should be taking out everyone on egghead pretty easily after his fight with Kaido but he’s going into gear 5 and exhausting himself for no reason.

[@Takt.mp4]

What is blud chatting bout 😭

[@theofantaye7503]

He's right though

[@theburgerking1236]

@@theofantaye7503I can kinda see what he’s talking about but regardless Luffy had access to all of the techniques he just didn’t use them because no one was strong enough at that point to force him to

[@czar17_28]

@@theburgerking1236I mean Ace vs Yamato was pretty even. Luffy was struggling to some degree against Doffy.

[@stratosm3154]

​@@czar17_28can't take this seriously. Yamato was weaker and barely showed her full strength.
Plus luffy gear 4 didn't got a single hit from doffy

[@czar17_28]

@@stratosm3154 Gear 4 didn’t take a single hit, sure but Luffy literally couldn’t beat Doffy in an adequate time. Again its simply up in the air.
It’s really Yamato from 4( i believe ) years ago or Dressrossa Doffy. It’s not worth arguing about.

[@myrionrivera2458]

Luffy arrives at final island, looks up at a writing on a wall: "Ace wuz here!"

[@blackrikudoentertainment7689]

You could argue dressrosa for sure but it’s WCI, people are forgetting that ace also had all 3 types of haki and was able to create an island sized attack when fighting against whitebeard too and the affinity matchup would be against luffy.

[@claytondavis6835]

I mean, even if we only use what we saw on Fishman island and don’t include gear four even then that Luffy would likely body ace

[@MaxBlight]

Definitely after katakuri.

[@stratosm3154]

you think ace =katakuri?

[@stevensolitaria8062]

​@@stratosm3154nah but Ace was able to fight toe to toe with Aokiji so Ace is close to Katakuri and I'd definitely scale him above Doffy. I'd say Luffy Surpassed Ace when he was Fighting Katakuri.

[@theeasypeasysquad4169]

Definitely after katakuri. With snakeman and future sight, luffy would finally have an edge over Ace.

[@radicalcomposer8833]

Luffy canonically had up to snake man when the time skip hit but for some reason didn’t use gear 4 at all in the first couple post time skip arcs

[@slenda8205]

When his bounty eclipsed his easy, bounty is a combination of strength infamy and capacity to cause problems

[@dingleberry3458]

Ace couldn’t even beat smoker 💀

[@Julesthemaster]

Fire nor smoke can’t win in a clash

[@Rinkachichirikumei]

​@@JulesthemasterHe should of been able to beat him with his haki is the point. But he did'nt. And we all know how trash Smoker is.

[@ArthurPrince03]

@@Rinkachichirikumei Its just bad writing in terms of power scaling lol. Unless we try to defend oda by saying ace purposely didn't use haki.

[@dataroaming7512]

To be honest I’m pretty sure Oda was still conceptualising haki at that point, I know we saw Zoro use something akin the observation haki in the same arc, but I think he hadn’t fully planned out the whole system and who’d actually have haki.

[@sammy.m1235]

Bro wasn’t even trying with smoker though😭😭😭

[@MZeora]

if not Fishman Island. Post-Dressrosa certainly.

[@Thejigholeman]

i'd say it's the moment he got armament haki.
once he got that, ace's logia defense (being made of fire) became useless.
70% of a logia's power comes from the fact that you can't touch them. once you get past that, it's just a fancy paramecia.

[@johansno5019]

One of the few things that irks me in OP are the strength inconsistencies. Ace was a yonko commander who fought some strong guys but still couldnt beat Smoker pre skip

[@CallMeWoodstock]

Wild takes. He surpassed him at the war. We all knew what we saw coming in the future from the way he moved and pulled opposing forces together.

[@basedslugma3752]

Your crazy saying marineford luffy is stronger than ace 😂

[@CallMeWoodstock]

@basedslugma3752 said he surpassed him. Never said he was physically stronger lol

[@nathanialb9115]

We talking about the same ace that clashed with a admiral 💀

[@CallMeWoodstock]

@@nathanialb9115 the one and only

[@theroseproject9681]

You a clown

[@vergil4dlc]

Ace fought jimbei for 5 days as well

[@johnnyblaze9217]

So what? Luffy in fishman island would one shot jinbei with g4 Kong gun

[@stefanotoms2727]

​He wouldn't 1 shot him

[@rejdisndoka3986]

That was before he even joined wb

[@vergil4dlc]

@@johnnyblaze9217 cap jinbe is tanking hits from Akainu in marineford don’t sleep

[@Babylauncher3000]

When was this stated?

[@bruhmoment8624]

Right after ace died....that was the turning point

[@gladesucks7907]

Dressrosa was when it was confirmed, when he beat Katakuri it was undeniable

[@genkoti]

We won't truly know for certain when Luffy surpassed Ace until we see him do something we know Ace couldn't do-
Beat Blackbeard.

[@saadfarouk713]

Bro ace is not beating katakuri

[@HK-sg8wg]

Would be cool to see a “what if Ace survived?” How strong would he be? How would the story change?

[@bored_boar]

He did something Ace couldn't do. Live.

[@layfonalsief7083]

Yeah immediately after time skip. gotta remember the straw hats essentially steamrolled fishman island and didn’t have to fully exert themselves until Dressrosa.

[@mattyb9708]

Luffy using advanced conquer’s Haki in his clash with doffy is when he surpasses ace.

[@pandoraspixel3367]

The point where Luffy surpassed ace was DRESSROSA for me, when he defeated and finally put down doflamingo.
Ace was the second division commander of the WB pirates, if he had lived and trained for a few more years then I could see him rise up to emperor status legitimately, gear 4th was the culmination of Luffy's training at the time during the past 2 years and he used that strength to take down an awakened df user with all types of haki.

[@FG-lp1gr]

after he unlocks ryuo, ace doesn't have many feats but i think he was a lot stronger than people give him credit for .

[@just_tagan0718]

BRO HAD EVERY LANGUAGE IN TJE WORLD TO SPEAK AND SPOKE GIBBERISH 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥

[@EasternDeath]

After whole cake bruh. Ace's bounty being 550 makes you forget that he was the 3rd in command of the strongest pirate crew in the world.

[@philburdell9235]

I think the assumption that Ace is Doflamingo-level is fair. If this premise is wrong, the rest of this argument is wrong:
Doffy was the first actually challenging opponent post-timeskip that Luffy fought and beat. Neither Hody nor Caesar were enough of a problem where Luffy needed to whip out Gear 4, a technique he developed during the timeskip.
Either Luffy was right at Ace/Doffy-level during the timeskip, or Luffy surpassed Ace during the timeskip.
The only instance of growth since was at the end of Whole Cake Island, where he's fighting Katakuri in the Mirroworld and unlocks G4: Snakeman.
Luffy either surpassed Ace during the Timeskip, or during Whole Cake Island.

[@t5hammer871]

I think people overestimate Ace a bit. We saw his power capped at Island level (against Blackbeard) and Luffy beat Enel already who was gonna blow up a bigger island with enough electricity to overcome Luffy’s natural immunity to it. Blackbeard wasn’t using haki so he wasn’t using his full ability and Luffy also fought Blackbeard too in Impel Down

[@JustN0tMe]

After unlocking Advanced Observation
...
Luffy had to pull Gear 4 to overwhelm Doffy(someone that isn't able to win against any 2nd Yonko Commander... which was Ace's position)
That same Luffy needed massive help to defeat a 4th Yonko Commander(Cracker)
After doing toe to toe with a 1st Commander and winning(I believe that was a draw tho)... it's safe to assume that he surpassed Ace during this fight

[@FordeMax92]

in Strength: after timeskip,
But as for greatnes there's 2
1: After fighting Lucci
2:After revealing he's Dragon's son

[@littica]

It depends on if the Ace novel is Canon. If it is, Luffy doesn't surpass Ace until third arc of Wano. If it's not, then they're right.

[@kemj9]

He’s trying to say the level of power shown in Fishman island isn’t the same as what was shown against Doffy. Even though it is, Luffy wasn’t in his bag as yet.

[@Monaco90]

They don’t do training arcs in one piece because the theme of the story is growth through experience. Luffy didn’t develop gear 4th immediately after the time skip.

[@treymtz]

I feel like he was around equal to ace at fishman island, not yet passed. Dressrosa was the tip that pushed him over the edge, specifically during doflamingo's fight which was really the first struggle post time skip. At some point during those trades, he took that extra centimeter of a step where he would be classified as being "past" him.

[@aetherblackbolt1301]

As soon as Luffy learned future sight, he surpassed Ace. Future Sight + Snake Man would mean none of Ace's Fire attacks could catch Luffy, and Luffy could catch out Ace easily. If Ace had future sight then I think that changes a lot, since he can do the body-morph thing that Katakuri did but even better - maybe Luffy would need Ryou to beat out the future sight and body-morph (since it extends out and to the sides).
What's weird is that Ace seemed shocked about Conquerer's, and didnt use it to save himself, so Luffy probably surpassed him in using that during the timeskip as well.
Outside of 1v1, Luffy would generally be stronger in all ways except mass AoE damage - Ace wins out due to the fire logia. But once Luffy got Gear 5 he has just as much AoE due to Toon Force shenanigans.

[@lazylenni1017]

It's a bit frustrating how they all agree and yet are still talking past each other.😅
Well, I agree with them.

[@thottydagod457]

Idk who need to hear this but Ace was near Yonko level. Which is why they had to give a whole explanation for why Akainu was able to beat him.

[@FreemodeVillain]

The moment luffy Doflamingo and Katakuri he surpassed Ace in every way strength, greatness, reputation, bounty, clout, rizz, and as a character🗣️🗣️💯💯💯

[@kikunn7347]

for me i think its the whole cake island arc where he was fighting katakuri

[@G.A.M.E.R.-]

I would say Dressrosa personally, especially with the reintroduction of Sabo they really seemed to be at similar leveos

[@user-vl8ck4gz6w]

I'd say when he beat Katakuri he was on the same level. Then surpassed after defeating Kaido. Problem is we never really saw how strong Ace was in comparison. He was so early in the story and we never sae him fighting anyone except Blackbeard. And me personally Blackbeard doesnt look strong but we have nothing to compare to. Genius writing by Oda.

[@codenamegamma7989]

I mean we haven’t seen much of ace outside him being vastly injured and fighting an admiral that was his direct counter

[@parthsarthi2630]

Ace fought Haki people with his DF so it is safe to say that he had pretty much mastered his DF.
Luffy (after time-skip) had the same level of mastery of his DF, but also had a much better mastery of Haki. He knocked down 50,000 fishmen (who are stronger than humans on basic level) in just one go.

[@STNDakidd954]

He's speaking fax yall should of let him Cook I feel like Luffy and Ace were definitely on the same Level But usually in anime's Our Star Main Character Usually Powers up by Experience and fighting and i think he definitely surpassed Ace after beating Dohflamingo.