Na'Toth is played in this episode by Julie Caitlin Brown, who played her for five episodes in Season 1. Mary Kay Adams took over the role in Season 2 when Brown left it.
LOL at Brent's predictions. He is so good at having his predictions a moving target. Oh, it didn't happen this episode. It has to be next episode then. Unless it is the episode after that. So funny.
You nailed it with Lochley calling Bester, but you didn't see Na'Toth coming. JMS is still able to surprise people, even after four and a half seasons.
Yeah, Na'Toth just kind of went away and the last we hear of her is that she *may* have been on Narn during the Centauri occupation, way back on Episode 20 of Season 3. No mention ever after that... until now. And honestly, I'm glad we got Caitlin Brown back as Na'Toth. She really had the presense that Mary Kay Adams seemed to lack.
My father used to make dozen of predictions. When he got one right, he would "wear the crown". When most of them didn't come true, they just lay there, forgotten. But he still "wore his crown".
I mostly agree that Lockley is a stand in for Ivonova except in this instance. Can you really see a world where Ivonova willingly agrees to call Alfred Bester, of all people, for help? Pretty sure Susan would rather slather her arm in vegemite and savor each bite before calling Bester without a cannon at the ready. Oh and just in case I was somehow unclear, not even Narns will eat vegemite at any stage. It is 65,000% worse than Spoo.
I want to point out one more bit of world-building, even near the midpoint of season 5. Londo’s tale of the guard in the garden is another horrifying example of just how much power the Centauri emperors have. And yet even Londo sees how awful that power is.
Its an example of the nature of big government. Once something is law, its tough to find the willpower to get rid of it. There are all manor federal, state, and local laws that exist on the books today that were put in place that simply have never been reviewed because they became largely irrelevant to a changing world. (Early auto safety laws, extreme penalties for stealing horses from when they were a primary method of transportation)
Agreed. The Londo G'Kar is by far better than the Byron telepath arc. We shall see when that ends. Maybe sooner, maybe later. Na'Toth ... you didn't see that coming, great reaction! Be seeing you!
You see, I think JMS meant for Byron to be annoying, and for his logics to have big holes in it. And he also meant for Sheridan not to give his best perspective and reaction. This was probably meant to be a situation in which people do less well then they otherwise could. I think Lochley is actually the one who comes out better -- she follows her nature, does her best, does what she promises and what the circumstances let her. The others ... have imperfections.
Well i think bringing in the Psi Corps which is bound to cause bloodshed is not one of her finer moments. I find her a pretty poor station Commander to be honest.
It's painfully obvious that JMS had to stretch the Byron stuff beyond its breaking point to make up enough material to replace the S4 stuff that was meant for S5. It's made all the more obvious whenever they have Byron and Londo/G'kar in the same episode; when you have an interesting and compelling B story in the same ep with a boring, plodding and paper-thin A story it just makes it that much more dissonant and noticeable.
JMS had also produced several B5 movies at this point and was probably planning out Crusade. If you watch the DVD interviews, he had visibly aged about 20 years. It’s quite stark. He was worn out.
I don't think the Telepath arc is boring. I will agree that it is stretched out too far in many A plots. What I don't know is if any hints of the Telepath story arc would have been B plots in some of the later Season 4 episodes had JMS known he had a 5th season guaranteed. I really think that the A plot of the episode, "The Long Night of Londo Mollari" would have been a late season 4 episode had JMS known he had the 5th season to extend the end of season 4 into. We will never know the truth.
It couldn't have helped that JMS lost a lot of season 5's notes at a convention. Apparently, the hotel changed his room without telling him, and the cleaner threw the notes out so he had to do a lot at the 11th hour from memory
Indeed. We toss around the word "war" as hyperbole. But you would think when we just had the Narn-Centauri, the Shadow War, and the Earth and Mimbari civil wars, that there would be a tad more comprehension. When both sides are actively trying to kill as many of the enemy as they can, that's a war.
I find it interesting to think about how the telepath story would have gone had Ivanova still been in the show, given she’s a latent telepath. I think it would have been a pretty compelling story for her.
Brace yourself: I recall hearing that she was supposed to be Byron's lover, with Lyta being sort of a sad admiring-from-afar. Now, Ivanova's love life was loss after loss. She's grieving for Marcus and realizing that was a good guy who she never gave a chance. And suddenly: Byron. Gives him the benefit of the doubt when she shouldn't. The conflict of the situation is much more interesting with her commanding the station. It also would have taken the pressure off Byron to anchor the story arc. We'd be going through it with Ivanova who we're invested in.
Yep! Most of that is my understanding, too (though later JMS publications give a different interpretation of Marcus’ character). I was trying to be kinda vague in order to not accidentally spoil a bit of what’s coming up both in the short and long terms.
The notion that Lochley should end up being a telepath because it was Susan's arc to play this role: Yeah, but as with Lyta and Talia or Sheridan and Sinclair, we're really talking about how a different character is similar but brings out new thoughts through their differences. But... does she? Does she end up making Byron or the situation more interesting or sympathetic? I dunno. I fully believe Ivanova would have. It's so clearly her planned shining star of a finale season storyline.
Londo and G'Kar, and a few other things, are the best part of the first half of S5. It's why it should not be skipped. And even though the telepath story goes on too long, imo, there is still a fair story in it all, just it needed to be shortened.
I always thought they could have sent them to the Markab homeworld. All the Markab are dead, so it’s really the perfect place. The local jumpgate was destroyed so less chance of unwanted company dropping by, and they should have adequate vaccines should the Draffa plague come back.
Hm. I had commented that humans are immune to the drafa and for some reason my comment was removed. I wonder why. It's not a spoiler, this was well-established in "Confessions"
You keep missing the point behind Byron. Byron is a Horrible human being who is cosplaying as Jesus. He is a Cult leader, and like All cult leaders they make better symbols than Actual leaders. I can go on, but I don't want to get into spoilers.
It's amazing to me how so many people think the telepaths are a cult and Bryon is a cult leader - I'd suggest reading up on the behaviour of proper cults and their leaders sometime.
To me the 5th season in very much like the 3rd season of Star Trek tos. A few diamonds in the rough but mostly forgettable Don't get me wrong they're good episodes coming up. I ended up not liking Lyta at the end. I always thought she was one of 'us'. Oh well.
And when at last Byron does something to reach out, it's… nothing. Just say goodbye. Nothing tangible. That whole storyle with Lochley climbing in? That went nowhere. Byron had a chance to do something reasonable, make himself a tiny bit likeable, but even like that he used it to make himself seem above it all, better than thou.
Bryon really had no choice thanks to Lochley bringing in the Psi Corps. What kind of future did he and his people who were going to be arrested face anyway? Death or experimentation.
Na'Toth is played in this episode by Julie Caitlin Brown, who played her for five episodes in Season 1. Mary Kay Adams took over the role in Season 2 when Brown left it.
Yeah, was that a tired of mackup issue? The original Na'Toth was tall and strong, the replacement sounded like a child.
People assumed Ivanova inherited Laurel Takashima's story arc as the mole. She didn't, because that's not how it works.
LOL at Brent's predictions. He is so good at having his predictions a moving target. Oh, it didn't happen this episode. It has to be next episode then. Unless it is the episode after that. So funny.
You nailed it with Lochley calling Bester, but you didn't see Na'Toth coming. JMS is still able to surprise people, even after four and a half seasons.
Bester was a good call, but definitely doesn't rate a crown. Maybe a headband.
Yeah, Na'Toth just kind of went away and the last we hear of her is that she *may* have been on Narn during the Centauri occupation, way back on Episode 20 of Season 3. No mention ever after that... until now. And honestly, I'm glad we got Caitlin Brown back as Na'Toth. She really had the presense that Mary Kay Adams seemed to lack.
No spoilers, but you close to where Mega was when he proclaimed " YEAH, BABYLON 5 IS BACK!"
My father used to make dozen of predictions. When he got one right, he would "wear the crown". When most of them didn't come true, they just lay there, forgotten. But he still "wore his crown".
I mostly agree that Lockley is a stand in for Ivonova except in this instance. Can you really see a world where Ivonova willingly agrees to call Alfred Bester, of all people, for help? Pretty sure Susan would rather slather her arm in vegemite and savor each bite before calling Bester without a cannon at the ready. Oh and just in case I was somehow unclear, not even Narns will eat vegemite at any stage. It is 65,000% worse than Spoo.
I like vegemite.
@@loopslytle The unwritten rule in the Constitution allows for everyone to be wrong. You do you.
Also in the original plan for this story Ivannova would have been lovers with Byron.
I want to point out one more bit of world-building, even near the midpoint of season 5. Londo’s tale of the guard in the garden is another horrifying example of just how much power the Centauri emperors have. And yet even Londo sees how awful that power is.
Its an example of the nature of big government. Once something is law, its tough to find the willpower to get rid of it. There are all manor federal, state, and local laws that exist on the books today that were put in place that simply have never been reviewed because they became largely irrelevant to a changing world. (Early auto safety laws, extreme penalties for stealing horses from when they were a primary method of transportation)
Agreed. The Londo G'Kar is by far better than the Byron telepath arc. We shall see when that ends. Maybe sooner, maybe later.
Na'Toth ... you didn't see that coming, great reaction!
Be seeing you!
It is old Na'Toth.
You see, I think JMS meant for Byron to be annoying, and for his logics to have big holes in it. And he also meant for Sheridan not to give his best perspective and reaction. This was probably meant to be a situation in which people do less well then they otherwise could. I think Lochley is actually the one who comes out better -- she follows her nature, does her best, does what she promises and what the circumstances let her. The others ... have imperfections.
Well i think bringing in the Psi Corps which is bound to cause bloodshed is not one of her finer moments. I find her a pretty poor station Commander to be honest.
It's painfully obvious that JMS had to stretch the Byron stuff beyond its breaking point to make up enough material to replace the S4 stuff that was meant for S5. It's made all the more obvious whenever they have Byron and Londo/G'kar in the same episode; when you have an interesting and compelling B story in the same ep with a boring, plodding and paper-thin A story it just makes it that much more dissonant and noticeable.
JMS had also produced several B5 movies at this point and was probably planning out Crusade.
If you watch the DVD interviews, he had visibly aged about 20 years. It’s quite stark.
He was worn out.
I don't think the Telepath arc is boring. I will agree that it is stretched out too far in many A plots. What I don't know is if any hints of the Telepath story arc would have been B plots in some of the later Season 4 episodes had JMS known he had a 5th season guaranteed. I really think that the A plot of the episode, "The Long Night of Londo Mollari" would have been a late season 4 episode had JMS known he had the 5th season to extend the end of season 4 into.
We will never know the truth.
It couldn't have helped that JMS lost a lot of season 5's notes at a convention. Apparently, the hotel changed his room without telling him, and the cleaner threw the notes out so he had to do a lot at the 11th hour from memory
@@chrism7395 oh shit
@@kirishima638 Indeed! ...
Sine you mention you want the telepath war to stop, I'm curious as to what makes you think the telepath war has even started yet.
Indeed. We toss around the word "war" as hyperbole. But you would think when we just had the Narn-Centauri, the Shadow War, and the Earth and Mimbari civil wars, that there would be a tad more comprehension. When both sides are actively trying to kill as many of the enemy as they can, that's a war.
We haven't seen Julie Caitlin Brown on the show since Season 2.
I find it interesting to think about how the telepath story would have gone had Ivanova still been in the show, given she’s a latent telepath. I think it would have been a pretty compelling story for her.
Brace yourself: I recall hearing that she was supposed to be Byron's lover, with Lyta being sort of a sad admiring-from-afar.
Now, Ivanova's love life was loss after loss. She's grieving for Marcus and realizing that was a good guy who she never gave a chance. And suddenly: Byron. Gives him the benefit of the doubt when she shouldn't.
The conflict of the situation is much more interesting with her commanding the station. It also would have taken the pressure off Byron to anchor the story arc. We'd be going through it with Ivanova who we're invested in.
Yep! Most of that is my understanding, too (though later JMS publications give a different interpretation of Marcus’ character). I was trying to be kinda vague in order to not accidentally spoil a bit of what’s coming up both in the short and long terms.
The thing is, Byron knows how to lord it over everyone.
The notion that Lochley should end up being a telepath because it was Susan's arc to play this role: Yeah, but as with Lyta and Talia or Sheridan and Sinclair, we're really talking about how a different character is similar but brings out new thoughts through their differences. But... does she? Does she end up making Byron or the situation more interesting or sympathetic? I dunno. I fully believe Ivanova would have. It's so clearly her planned shining star of a finale season storyline.
Londo and G'Kar, and a few other things, are the best part of the first half of S5. It's why it should not be skipped. And even though the telepath story goes on too long, imo, there is still a fair story in it all, just it needed to be shortened.
Did the American revolution end right after the Bostin Massacre?
I am confused.
Is it possible I got another version AppleTV and DVD?
The DVD is a completely different version. It's all cropped and low res and badly transferred.
@@algi1 I am talking a different storyline. Not quality or crop. Or did I miss the part, where they was passing the palace with Na‘Toth
@@BernhardHujer You cannot watch the episode on UA-cam.
I always thought they could have sent them to the Markab homeworld. All the Markab are dead, so it’s really the perfect place. The local jumpgate was destroyed so less chance of unwanted company dropping by, and they should have adequate vaccines should the Draffa plague come back.
Humans are immune to the drafa virus
Is it the Alliance's to give?
@@simongiles9749 I assume it doesn’t belong to anyone at this point which kinda makes it free game
Hm. I had commented that humans are immune to the drafa and for some reason my comment was removed. I wonder why. It's not a spoiler, this was well-established in "Confessions"
gaaaaah you guys are so close to the last episode...........
Lots of spoilery comments in here about where the telepath story arc is going. Let's wait until they see it unfold on the show.
Hear hear!
You keep missing the point behind Byron. Byron is a Horrible human being who is cosplaying as Jesus. He is a Cult leader, and like All cult leaders they make better symbols than Actual leaders. I can go on, but I don't want to get into spoilers.
There's an Orange Man watching you, be careful!
It's amazing to me how so many people think the telepaths are a cult and Bryon is a cult leader - I'd suggest reading up on the behaviour of proper cults and their leaders sometime.
@@tjtenser7828 Yes it would have been more convincing if they'd had some Kool-Aid
To me the 5th season in very much like the 3rd season of Star Trek tos.
A few diamonds in the rough but mostly forgettable
Don't get me wrong they're good episodes coming up.
I ended up not liking Lyta at the end. I always thought she was one of 'us'. Oh well.
And when at last Byron does something to reach out, it's… nothing. Just say goodbye. Nothing tangible. That whole storyle with Lochley climbing in? That went nowhere. Byron had a chance to do something reasonable, make himself a tiny bit likeable, but even like that he used it to make himself seem above it all, better than thou.
Bryon really had no choice thanks to Lochley bringing in the Psi Corps. What kind of future did he and his people who were going to be arrested face anyway? Death or experimentation.
I vote for Brent to be crowned as one of the First Ones! 🙂
I always liked you