The Story Of The Flower hits hard if you've spent decades in a lot of old corporate environments. There is so much crazy and stupid shit that gets enforced "because we've always done that this way". That story is totally believable in quite a few companies I've worked in!
I don't understand why it's so surprising and hard to accept that two young exciting and excited kids might suddenly get married and just as suddenly divorce or annul that marriage after a few weeks or months. Imagine young officers on shore leave at the New Vegas colony getting married on impulse and it's totally realistic.
I have a daughter who teaches cooperate courses on efficiency and she has a number of real stories that are like the whole guard and flower story. Some of the real stories she knows are just jaw dropping. That sort of thing happens, and far more often than you might think.
@@jonjohns8145 I thought it was, well, not the specific Russian element but I thought it was true, but I wasn't certain so I avoided stating it. I do know of a number such things, one with US military another with a Scottish law firm and a few others.
A comment on the alliance making things up as they go along. That's pretty much the birth of any Government. When the U.S. was formed, they created the Declaration of Independence in 1776, took about 5 years to put together the Articles of Confederation in 1781, but didn't finalize the Constitution until 13 years later until 1789, and didn't ratify the Bill of Rights until 1791. So I guess forming a Government is trial and error, and takes some time. Remember in B5 time, it's only been about 6 months or so. To use a United Nations type of example (which I thing the Alliance is more based on), it took from April 1945, when the first meeting took place, to June 1945 when the UN charter was created, to October 1945 for the charter to take effect, and the first general assembly wasn't until 1946. One thing that keeps coming up are why are the Earth and Minbari at the head table (The Narn and Centauri are also there) when everyone else is in the gallery. Looking at the UN model, Earth and Minbari are like the security council, and the other races are like the member nations. Just a thought. I think that the "we do things because we do," happens all the time. In America, we have ceremonies that we still conduct, that most people have forgotten the reason for. How many people know the origins of Memorial Day, in the U.S.?
Two types of dramatic tension, really: 1) When the audience is missing information, and has to try and figure out what's going on. 2) When the audience knows info the characters don't, and the tension of being unable to communicate to the characters YMMV on how well it works for you, but I think the scenario with the Centauri in Season 5 is FIRMLY in category 2. Regarding the Redemption of Londo Mollari, Lady Morella was quite clear.... ;)
Bester in this is exactly who Bester always has been - he has always seen Telepaths as "His People", and the rest of humanity as "The Old Guard" - Bester is the professional Bigot, He and his are simply genetically superior, no judgement on the rest of humanity, it isn't their fault they are inferiors, it's just the way it is. As for the thing about how the Alliance works - I took it as a simple idea that frankly, Sheridan and Delenn don't know how to set up and run this whole Alliance thing and they are just winging it and trying to make everyone think they know.
You guys really got to stop giving Bester credit for joining the fight against the shadows. He joined for selfish reasons because an alien race used his mistress as a weapon and that's it. He's whole heartedly aligned to the Psycorps, a fascist military organization that will force you to take drugs or kill you and terrorize your family unless you join. How quickly you forget the torture and abuse Garibaldi suffered at the hands of Bester. But hey he said the was with them in that one episode.
Brent's comment about how JMS wrote Londo and G'Kar at this point totally syncs with what JMS has said himself. He didn't tell Londo and G'Kar what to do , he watched what they did and just wrote it down.
When you're done enjoying Londo & G'kar in the window, go back and review your foot stomping and pontificating about G'kar going to CP as Londo's body guard. From time to time, consider the possibility that your knee-jerks are a failure of imagination on your end, not a weakness in storytelling on Joe's.
The history of Na'toth runs something like: First there was Ko'dath, the first Narn aide. IIRC, that actress backed out after a couple of episodes because of the makeup requirements (not sure if it was a time thing, reaction to the latex or contacts, or what). So instead of recasting, JMS created Na'toth and Julie Caitlin Brown agreed to take the role for a season. They didn't have her locked up long-term, and she left after season 1 because she had a budding film career and didn't want to be hidden under all of the prosthetics. But she did come back for a guest role late in season 2 as Sheridan's lawyer in There All The Honor Lies. But because of the season 1 cliffhanger and some information that Na'toth had (about what G'Kar was up to), JMS didn't want to just create a new aide; instead he re-cast the role. He didn't love the replacement actor's take on the character and I think Na'toth only appeared in 2 or 3 episodes in season 2. So she was "presumed dead" on Narn but Julie Caitlin Brown agreed to return in season 5 to give Na'toth's arc some closure.
40:23 Here in the UK, we spent the same amount of time studying both world wars. Purely on numbers, we had 888,000 military deaths in the first war and over 382,000 military deaths in the second. The numbers of survivors with life-changing injuries were also high. Both the immediate and longer term impacts on society were brutal, with almost every family losing someone. We study the hubris that caused the first one, how the war was fought, the amazing art produced by the traumatised soldiers (we spent at least one English class studying Wilfred Owen's "Dulce et Decorum est") and the home front before and after the war (both the jingoism of the early war with women accusing men on street for cowardice in not volunteering and the horror of a society watching the trickle of physically and mentally scarred survivors return). We then study a lot about the inter-war years. Many modern people are critical of the appeasement of Hitler, but the earlier study of the first war puts the issues into context. If I had lived through a time when close to a million of my people died (and where I may have spent time on the front lines) would I try every possible option I could think of to avert war? How far would I be willing to compromise my principles in order to avert death? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if you remove that, I am not sure where I would have drawn the line against Germany. Austria, the Sudetenland, Poland? We then moved on to the second war, analysing the use of propaganda by all sides, the key conflicts and the horrors inflicted on the civilian populace. Even after all that, The Great War and World War 2 channels on UA-cam show we barely scratched the surface.
Yeah, WWI isn't that prominent in US History because the US didn't really do much or change much as a result of it. It had PROFOUND changes on everywhere else (Middle East, Russia, Central Europe) but not in the US. Party why there aren't many Hollywood WWI movies. WWII on the other hand marks the Debut of the US on the world stage as the New Superpower, so it is much more studied than WWI in US history classes.
All VERY good points. WWI had huge repercussions for those in Europe. For us in America, we were only involved in the final year of the war and lost a small fraction of what England and France lost in combat deaths. The US had no real big naval battles to speak of, nor did we have an airforce with US designed planes. We came to the party late and didn't stay long. Plus, WWI can be kind of hard to explain how it started.
47:09 - Brent: "Is there not a level of you've got to cast some vision to your soldiers and let them know why they're doing what they're doing and not just being these good little automatons?" Jeff: "Totally." Eh... no. Not really. In broad strokes this may be true among some militaries - Jeff certainly has some experience to speak to that from a US perspective - but it's often not the case, *ESPECIALLY* in old school monarchies like the Centauri is modeled after. In many of those situations soldiers are absolutely expected to behave as mindless automatons who do what they're told without question. There are countless examples of this sort of thing throughout history, where soldiers continued to man a post for literally *decades* after a war had ended - simply because they were forgotten about and nobody ordered them to stop. There are at least half a dozen examples of Japanese soldiers doing this some 30+ years after WW2 ended (some as many as 60+ years). There are stories of soldiers in both the American Revolutionary and Civil Wars doing the same. This is *not* uncommon.
Plus you have to remember The Centari are 'aliens' and how they regard this can be totally or slightly different from how we do. "Don't touch me like that! We may look like you but we are not you!"-Lennier to Marcus
You don't think so? I have to say that the message seems, to me, to be obviously exactly what JMS intended. It is totally consistent with everything JMS has shown us of his views. Why would you think that somehow this very powerful message was an accident?
@@jamesbell7696 I hear you, but honestly I think that over states it a bit - in fact I have heard JMS say that sometimes things fans see are just happenchance [he was actually talking about Crusades when he said that but I think it applies to everything he does] However in this case I think it is true. By this point in the series. I believe JMS has made it fairly clear what his view of things are and so when an episode aligns so well with that view, it seems unlikely it was an accident.
Gentlemen, at the risk of sounding snarky (which is not my intent), there is a term for "a clip show without being a clip show." It's called a montage. And when paired with a voice-over, it's a very effective narrative device. Can we use that term instead of "clip show" going forward?
I suspect the inside baseball of the 'wars are exciting' is actually JMS reacting to fans saying they are finding S5 boring because the war has finished.
Had Adira survived, Londo would be a completely different person. He probably would have left everything to live with her in some cabin in the woods away from everyone and everything. Morden getting her off the board was a master stroke of manipulation.
65! And also, to answer your question in the beginning, in our country, instead of barbeque we usually make shishlik. It's basically just meat, sometimes slightly marinated, fried on skewers on charcoals. It's really easy to cook and it's delicious when done right.
Everything revolves around the number 3. Being married to Lochley is important. Sheridan has been married three time: Lochley (Warrior caste), Anna (Worker caste) and Delenn (Religious caste).
Exactly! They are the only characters who changes. On a personal level, it is their story. And damn do they own it. I'm not a big fan of a reboot because they are irreplacable.
@@lollol35 to me, the only way a "reboot" would work is that it follows along Road Home and what it established as a foundation for it. But in general, I would prefer something in-universe
@@hornorsilk2901 I didn't like Road Home. The replacement actors simply didn't do it for me. And also there really was no story. Just revisiting old aquiantenses.
@@lollol35 there were things I liked about it, but as a whole, I am meh about it; my only point is that in and with it we have a way to do a "reboot" which still connects to the original -- Zathras knows how it is to be done, but will anyone listen to Zathras?
I'm from Switzerland and we totally grill. Some people do it the whole summer. For my birthday I always do a big grill party. My go to is chicken and zucchini and my newest discovery is asparagus, it tastes completly different grilled.
The Spanish American War, I would argue was the most important war in American History. It's when we grew up, when we became a global power, we took Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Guam. There's a reason it was called a splendid little war. It accomplished amazing things at almost. No cost or sacrifice. Without the Spanish American War no TR as President. Uncle Sam was created, why do we still wear straw hats on the 4th of July? All from that. It was a seminal event.
In Denmark we totally grill. I see both Gas and (65 pieces of) charcoal grills around. Good discussion. Yes, the Londo and G'Kar stuff outshines everything else, and I don't think I met anyone really liking Byron. Yes, season 5 is mixed, and you just wait... Be seeing you!
It was A. The fact that people think it's difficult to act, and there's nothing you can do, when actually there's always something you can do - is a recurring theme in all JMS's work. His comic "Midnight Nation" was entirely about this, but it comes up repeatedly in the rest of his writing.
Brent - about why we mark history by wars. Understand that I don't disagree with you on what you said, but the idea that wars represent change does suggest that we don't grow during times of peace ... and what does that say about us?
Well, think about this. Remember that scene in 'Deconstruction of Falling Stars' at the end of Season 4 -- the scene in the middle of a 'situation' in B5? With Garibaldi hostage? We're getting close to the moment in which that happens...
I think that the loss of the Ivanova storyline was really a death blow to the fifth season. There was a lot of foreshadowing going all all before. It would have been Ivanova's time to "shine" in the story. JMS himself said there would have some "interesting" developments with her.
We don't call it "Grilling" we call it "Barbecuing" in Australia. Yes we do it a lot. I live in Western Australia where we have outdoor fire bans for much of the year so it's usually Propane as that is still allowed. In fact this year, due to an excessively dry spell, our local fire bans have been extended to Mid May which is almost Winter. The rains have just started so I believe the bans will be lifted Mid May. I have been waiting for this as I am waiting to melt some Copper and Aluminium, which I have to do outside.
There are some places in the US that people call grilling or cooking out 'barbecuing' but there are also places in the US where barbecue is a specific type of sauce put on meat while grilling and to call anything else that's cooked outdoors but without barbecue sauce 'barbecue' is considered wrong.
@@jamesbell7696 I think we call it that because over here the thing you are cooking on is the Barbecue, we don't call it a grill unless it is inside our kitchen and is usually part of the stove or on the benchtop. I have seen a few American style Smoker Grills in recent times as the internet makes American Barbecue more popular. I still love a good old Aussie Barbie with Lamb Chops and Sausages and Steaks on it.
0:02 These things happen in a monarchy! It isnt a piss poor excuse, i believe JMS was using the exremes of the Roman Empire as a model. You might eant to read the story of how Caligula was going to invade Britain, took one look at the English Channel, got scared and ordered his troops to pick up seashells as the spoils of war! The Centauri are basically an unquestioning military.
When Londo was standing alone in the window, he was sending death on its way, now when Londo and G'Kar standing in the window they were sending life on its way.
32:00 That's a nice catch on the handshake, but -- just speculating here-- might it not go the other way? You speculated Lockley's detailed message to Bester might be because she wanted Byron to get wind of it. Now she goes in to see him in person when she really doesn't have to. Might that _also_ be putting some information in swiping distance if he chooses to scan her?
Mesquite? You do know that when the pioneers cooked over mesquite fires, it was because they had nothing else available - they wrote about how horrible it was! Hickory, maybe maple - or just plain charcoal. But Mesquite??? I feel like I don't know you guys at all.... Next thing you know, you'll start a new Star Trek Podcast where you look for Babylon 5 like messages.
Natural Gas is better than Propane, it burns hotter. Most gas grills can be converted. Trench a line from the grill to where the gas comes into the house, then have a plummer connect it, and your golden. Cheap gas without the need for tanks.
I believe Australia is into grilling, and I think a lot of South/ Central america cooks a lot of food along those lines. A lot of less developed countries thats fairly common just plain cooking. The ones I don't know is more developed cities and particularly Europe.
😢canadian here. If we can't use fire (campfire or backyard fire pit) then its the grill of your preferred type. There is no 'season' though. It could be snowing and -20 and someone will be outside with tongs 😂
Time to load up the grill for some slow cooked pulled pork BBQ. I have two uncles who have trailer grills that can handle a whole hog. One design change if I built one is place a box below the tanks. By the time the grill is done ice comes off those tanks in chunks and with the box below you could cool your drinks too.
Interesting how they showed the Centauri ship doing the attack. Old viewers of B5 would recognize them, but new TNT viewers wuoldn't. This is the same what JMS did in episode 1 where they blatantly showed the Narn ships, but the viewers wouldn't recognize them.
Garibaldi was correct about how we divide things up by wars, but not why. We don't mark wars because they're exciting; we mark wars because that's when things happen. Try to remember what significant happened between 1865 and 1898, that didn't involve westward expansion and Native American relocation; it was a very boring time for an American History book.
I have a theory that the reason Mac and Bo hated the taste of Spoo was that it's not meant to be served in a sandwich, which is reinforced by the presentation of it in this episode but they didn't know any better!
Hey, what happened to "I will never forgive Londo. I'm done with him" ? Also, Babylon 5 is not about "messages". That was the purpose of Star Trek. Babylon 5 is about telling an epic story.
Sure. But Babylon 5 For the First Time is a story unto itself. It’s about the journey of two Star Trek nerds discovering an entirely new series that has some bad history with trek.
Its so sad so many of the B5 actors have passed way. In b5 realtime Sheridan has gone by now also. Alot of them were the glue to that show. vere,dylan, Franklin,gkar,zack. Lyta and Lennier are MIA. Maybe they can a show were they Pull Susan Ivanova out Of early retirement and Lennier can be there too in some kind of futureistic buddy space cop thing. Oh...it would have to have JMS involved(uncomfortable for C.C. forget it.)
I really want to say something with the movies and the next season with Crusade but have to respect the no spoiler rule. If you know you know but there is more than they think. BTW I like a sweet and spicy tomato based BBQ sauce on that pulled pork but some Carolina vinegar based is good for a small amount. Save the grease for gravy in the morning too.
The Long Twilight Struggle, S2E20. One of the best episodes of all IMO but the particular scene Jeff was on about was Londo looking down on the mass-drivering of Narn and realising what he'd done. Then there is G'Kar's speech at the end. Absolute classic episode. The no-context link ua-cam.com/video/hCk-12UtYEI/v-deo.html
He said it was in the freeing-Natoth story line, and wasn't when that story line got started or when they found out it was her, so it must have been when L&G were standing at the window together.
TNT did push some things on JMS in addition to having to pad the maybe a half to three quarters of a season of story left to tell. This is why some of it seems great and some of it is not as good to actually bad (Byron’s part). If the series was done today, they would have filmed 10 episodes and ended it, like the CW did with Arrow, but at the time that wan’t done. Funny thing is TNT picked this show up to bring in new viewers. It did, but they eventually discovered that their normal viewers changed the channel and the B5 fans tuned in. The reverse happened when B5 finished. BBQ: Texan here. Propane? Seriously? Charcoal is ok but wood is best. I use charcoal to maintain heat.
Yeah in the UK we do bbq and grill. But we are pretty bad at it. The reason is our weather while not bad is unreliable. So long cooks often end up with a lone chef standing in the rain. So we tend to quicker spontaneous bbq grilling with whatever we can grab short notice. I do smoke from time to time but it's really frustrating. I do however use real charcoal on a bbq and control temperature with oil or water spray with flavours infused.
Cartagia's body isn't even cold yet; Londo: "We must rectify the emperor's misjudgment and get the shadow ships off our planet!" Na'toth in the cell, Londo: "I can't change an emperor's order, that would be treason!" 🤨
It's very different _because_ Cartagia's body is still warm. There was chaos and Londo took charge. Now there is a Regent and regular order and the chain of command are back in force. Then there was very little risk of anyone asking "on whose orders?" But now, there is a very good chance and the emperor-in-waiting (who insulted the palace guard bringing his own, weird Narn bodyguard) jumping the gun and giving orders above his station, that really could blow up big time.
The thing about ratings - I think you are right, but honestly I wish the audience would be mature enough that a scene like that would not be a ratings grab because it makes things feel "real" - but unfortunately it is a rating grab.
@@_volder but once seen, word spreads and suddenly people who didn't watch start watching in hope that it will happen again. I'm not saying that it works, but studios did think that way. Keeping in mind that back then shows were not streamed so you couldn't log on somewhere and watch an episode over and if you didn't watch it, tough - it will appear in reruns at some point but for now you missed out, so fratings are not about what was just watched but rather about the expectation of what you will be watching. In fact, in a later show JMS worked on after B5 was ended, he had a studio executive tell him they wanted him to put a scantily dressed woman added into an episode because it would boost future ratings. JMS actually told them he would not add it because it did not fit the story and he wouldn't stick scenes in that lowered the quality of the show just to boost ratings. Which suggests to me that in this case, he may well have done it for some other reason, but it would still have been seen as a ratings grab ... or maybe he did it for that reason and regretted it and therefore swore he would never do it again, or he didn't feel strong enough to stand up to the studio at that point - lots of possibilities, but at that point in time, that sort of thing was often done by studios to boost ratings.
No, "we" are not. Some of us have no problem recognizing the impulsive train wrecks many people are in their 20s can grow into the kinds of strong and capable people we see in Lockley and Sheridan.
Like the 3rd season of StarTrek, B5 season 5 wasn't produced under the best conditions. You can really feel the loss of Claudia Christian. NDAs are total bullshit. Why did it have to take 25+ years for the truth to come out. Miss Christian in her own words explained what happened. Read up on it. If JMS had gotten what he wanted I'm sure it would have ended long ago. People can be great writers and lousy human beings or vice versa. Sad. I think season 5 like year 3 of Star Trek is very hot and miss. Maybe it's just the way it ended. I won't comment on until your done. This is not a spoiler but be aware that the final episode in season 5 was actually filmed a year earlier for what they thought at the time was gonna wrap up the show.
"Everything that wasn't Byron was awesome, actually." That just about sums up Season 5.
Made me laugh, because it's true.
The Story Of The Flower hits hard if you've spent decades in a lot of old corporate environments. There is so much crazy and stupid shit that gets enforced "because we've always done that this way". That story is totally believable in quite a few companies I've worked in!
Government bureacracy as well. Lots of laws that get put on the books and stay there forever, regardless of relevance.
I don't understand why it's so surprising and hard to accept that two young exciting and excited kids might suddenly get married and just as suddenly divorce or annul that marriage after a few weeks or months. Imagine young officers on shore leave at the New Vegas colony getting married on impulse and it's totally realistic.
These two have a real problem with women & basic hetero relationships. The bad takes are endless.
I have a daughter who teaches cooperate courses on efficiency and she has a number of real stories that are like the whole guard and flower story. Some of the real stories she knows are just jaw dropping. That sort of thing happens, and far more often than you might think.
The Story of the Solder and the Flower is actually true from the Russian Empire. JMS adapted it to the Centauri.
@@jonjohns8145 I thought it was, well, not the specific Russian element but I thought it was true, but I wasn't certain so I avoided stating it. I do know of a number such things, one with US military another with a Scottish law firm and a few others.
A comment on the alliance making things up as they go along. That's pretty much the birth of any Government. When the U.S. was formed, they created the Declaration of Independence in 1776, took about 5 years to put together the Articles of Confederation in 1781, but didn't finalize the Constitution until 13 years later until 1789, and didn't ratify the Bill of Rights until 1791. So I guess forming a Government is trial and error, and takes some time. Remember in B5 time, it's only been about 6 months or so.
To use a United Nations type of example (which I thing the Alliance is more based on), it took from April 1945, when the first meeting took place, to June 1945 when the UN charter was created, to October 1945 for the charter to take effect, and the first general assembly wasn't until 1946. One thing that keeps coming up are why are the Earth and Minbari at the head table (The Narn and Centauri are also there) when everyone else is in the gallery. Looking at the UN model, Earth and Minbari are like the security council, and the other races are like the member nations. Just a thought.
I think that the "we do things because we do," happens all the time. In America, we have ceremonies that we still conduct, that most people have forgotten the reason for. How many people know the origins of Memorial Day, in the U.S.?
Two types of dramatic tension, really:
1) When the audience is missing information, and has to try and figure out what's going on.
2) When the audience knows info the characters don't, and the tension of being unable to communicate to the characters
YMMV on how well it works for you, but I think the scenario with the Centauri in Season 5 is FIRMLY in category 2.
Regarding the Redemption of Londo Mollari, Lady Morella was quite clear.... ;)
Bester in this is exactly who Bester always has been - he has always seen Telepaths as "His People", and the rest of humanity as "The Old Guard" - Bester is the professional Bigot, He and his are simply genetically superior, no judgement on the rest of humanity, it isn't their fault they are inferiors, it's just the way it is.
As for the thing about how the Alliance works - I took it as a simple idea that frankly, Sheridan and Delenn don't know how to set up and run this whole Alliance thing and they are just winging it and trying to make everyone think they know.
You guys really got to stop giving Bester credit for joining the fight against the shadows. He joined for selfish reasons because an alien race used his mistress as a weapon and that's it. He's whole heartedly aligned to the Psycorps, a fascist military organization that will force you to take drugs or kill you and terrorize your family unless you join. How quickly you forget the torture and abuse Garibaldi suffered at the hands of Bester. But hey he said the was with them in that one episode.
Brent will just not let this go. He misunderstood the statement and has stuck with it ever since.
Yeah. Bester has proven he will tell whatever lie will further his agenda to whoever he has to. His goals have never changed.
Next episode: and we all come together in a better place... a better place... :)
agreed. At least the real 'Byron' did a lot of screaming and was a 'Lord'. ;)
Brent's comment about how JMS wrote Londo and G'Kar at this point totally syncs with what JMS has said himself. He didn't tell Londo and G'Kar what to do , he watched what they did and just wrote it down.
When you're done enjoying Londo & G'kar in the window, go back and review your foot stomping and pontificating about G'kar going to CP as Londo's body guard. From time to time, consider the possibility that your knee-jerks are a failure of imagination on your end, not a weakness in storytelling on Joe's.
The history of Na'toth runs something like:
First there was Ko'dath, the first Narn aide. IIRC, that actress backed out after a couple of episodes because of the makeup requirements (not sure if it was a time thing, reaction to the latex or contacts, or what). So instead of recasting, JMS created Na'toth and Julie Caitlin Brown agreed to take the role for a season. They didn't have her locked up long-term, and she left after season 1 because she had a budding film career and didn't want to be hidden under all of the prosthetics. But she did come back for a guest role late in season 2 as Sheridan's lawyer in There All The Honor Lies. But because of the season 1 cliffhanger and some information that Na'toth had (about what G'Kar was up to), JMS didn't want to just create a new aide; instead he re-cast the role. He didn't love the replacement actor's take on the character and I think Na'toth only appeared in 2 or 3 episodes in season 2. So she was "presumed dead" on Narn but Julie Caitlin Brown agreed to return in season 5 to give Na'toth's arc some closure.
40:23 Here in the UK, we spent the same amount of time studying both world wars.
Purely on numbers, we had 888,000 military deaths in the first war and over 382,000 military deaths in the second. The numbers of survivors with life-changing injuries were also high.
Both the immediate and longer term impacts on society were brutal, with almost every family losing someone.
We study the hubris that caused the first one, how the war was fought, the amazing art produced by the traumatised soldiers (we spent at least one English class studying Wilfred Owen's "Dulce et Decorum est") and the home front before and after the war (both the jingoism of the early war with women accusing men on street for cowardice in not volunteering and the horror of a society watching the trickle of physically and mentally scarred survivors return).
We then study a lot about the inter-war years. Many modern people are critical of the appeasement of Hitler, but the earlier study of the first war puts the issues into context. If I had lived through a time when close to a million of my people died (and where I may have spent time on the front lines) would I try every possible option I could think of to avert war? How far would I be willing to compromise my principles in order to avert death? Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if you remove that, I am not sure where I would have drawn the line against Germany. Austria, the Sudetenland, Poland?
We then moved on to the second war, analysing the use of propaganda by all sides, the key conflicts and the horrors inflicted on the civilian populace.
Even after all that, The Great War and World War 2 channels on UA-cam show we barely scratched the surface.
Yeah, WWI isn't that prominent in US History because the US didn't really do much or change much as a result of it. It had PROFOUND changes on everywhere else (Middle East, Russia, Central Europe) but not in the US. Party why there aren't many Hollywood WWI movies. WWII on the other hand marks the Debut of the US on the world stage as the New Superpower, so it is much more studied than WWI in US history classes.
All VERY good points. WWI had huge repercussions for those in Europe. For us in America, we were only involved in the final year of the war and lost a small fraction of what England and France lost in combat deaths. The US had no real big naval battles to speak of, nor did we have an airforce with US designed planes. We came to the party late and didn't stay long. Plus, WWI can be kind of hard to explain how it started.
47:09 - Brent: "Is there not a level of you've got to cast some vision to your soldiers and let them know why they're doing what they're doing and not just being these good little automatons?"
Jeff: "Totally."
Eh... no. Not really. In broad strokes this may be true among some militaries - Jeff certainly has some experience to speak to that from a US perspective - but it's often not the case, *ESPECIALLY* in old school monarchies like the Centauri is modeled after. In many of those situations soldiers are absolutely expected to behave as mindless automatons who do what they're told without question. There are countless examples of this sort of thing throughout history, where soldiers continued to man a post for literally *decades* after a war had ended - simply because they were forgotten about and nobody ordered them to stop. There are at least half a dozen examples of Japanese soldiers doing this some 30+ years after WW2 ended (some as many as 60+ years). There are stories of soldiers in both the American Revolutionary and Civil Wars doing the same. This is *not* uncommon.
Plus you have to remember The Centari are 'aliens' and how they regard this can be totally or slightly different from how we do.
"Don't touch me like that! We may look like you but we are not you!"-Lennier to Marcus
You don't think so? I have to say that the message seems, to me, to be obviously exactly what JMS intended. It is totally consistent with everything JMS has shown us of his views. Why would you think that somehow this very powerful message was an accident?
Nothing is accidental in JMS' writing.
@@jamesbell7696 I hear you, but honestly I think that over states it a bit - in fact I have heard JMS say that sometimes things fans see are just happenchance [he was actually talking about Crusades when he said that but I think it applies to everything he does] However in this case I think it is true. By this point in the series. I believe JMS has made it fairly clear what his view of things are and so when an episode aligns so well with that view, it seems unlikely it was an accident.
Gentlemen, at the risk of sounding snarky (which is not my intent), there is a term for "a clip show without being a clip show." It's called a montage. And when paired with a voice-over, it's a very effective narrative device. Can we use that term instead of "clip show" going forward?
I suspect the inside baseball of the 'wars are exciting' is actually JMS reacting to fans saying they are finding S5 boring because the war has finished.
Had Adira survived, Londo would be a completely different person. He probably would have left everything to live with her in some cabin in the woods away from everyone and everything. Morden getting her off the board was a master stroke of manipulation.
65! And also, to answer your question in the beginning, in our country, instead of barbeque we usually make shishlik. It's basically just meat, sometimes slightly marinated, fried on skewers on charcoals. It's really easy to cook and it's delicious when done right.
65. "Six Words of Death" so very accurate in too many groups/organizations.
Everything revolves around the number 3. Being married to Lochley is important. Sheridan has been married three time: Lochley (Warrior caste), Anna (Worker caste) and Delenn (Religious caste).
Londo and G'Kar still prove they are what make B5.
Exactly! They are the only characters who changes. On a personal level, it is their story. And damn do they own it. I'm not a big fan of a reboot because they are irreplacable.
@@lollol35 to me, the only way a "reboot" would work is that it follows along Road Home and what it established as a foundation for it. But in general, I would prefer something in-universe
@@hornorsilk2901 I didn't like Road Home. The replacement actors simply didn't do it for me. And also there really was no story. Just revisiting old aquiantenses.
@@lollol35 there were things I liked about it, but as a whole, I am meh about it; my only point is that in and with it we have a way to do a "reboot" which still connects to the original -- Zathras knows how it is to be done, but will anyone listen to Zathras?
@@hornorsilk2901 Zathras listens to Zathras. Also maybe Draal ❤
I'm from Switzerland and we totally grill. Some people do it the whole summer. For my birthday I always do a big grill party. My go to is chicken and zucchini and my newest discovery is asparagus, it tastes completly different grilled.
The Spanish American War, I would argue was the most important war in American History. It's when we grew up, when we became a global power, we took Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Guam. There's a reason it was called a splendid little war. It accomplished amazing things at almost. No cost or sacrifice. Without the Spanish American War no TR as President. Uncle Sam was created, why do we still wear straw hats on the 4th of July? All from that. It was a seminal event.
This is how the spoo is aged
In Denmark we totally grill. I see both Gas and (65 pieces of) charcoal grills around.
Good discussion. Yes, the Londo and G'Kar stuff outshines everything else, and I don't think I met anyone really liking Byron.
Yes, season 5 is mixed, and you just wait...
Be seeing you!
We have an outdoor gas grill, for the rare hot weekends in the UK summer. Thinking of getting a smoker too.
It was A. The fact that people think it's difficult to act, and there's nothing you can do, when actually there's always something you can do - is a recurring theme in all JMS's work.
His comic "Midnight Nation" was entirely about this, but it comes up repeatedly in the rest of his writing.
Brent - about why we mark history by wars. Understand that I don't disagree with you on what you said, but the idea that wars represent change does suggest that we don't grow during times of peace ... and what does that say about us?
FWIW, the Death tarot card signifies change too.
@la_scrittice_vita change takes many forms but if we don't have change during peace, we have a serious situation.
“The avalanche has already begun, it is too late for the pebbles to vote. “
Well, think about this. Remember that scene in 'Deconstruction of Falling Stars' at the end of Season 4 -- the scene in the middle of a 'situation' in B5? With Garibaldi hostage? We're getting close to the moment in which that happens...
Spoilers
I think that the loss of the Ivanova storyline was really a death blow to the fifth season. There was a lot of foreshadowing going all all before. It would have been Ivanova's time to "shine" in the story. JMS himself said there would have some "interesting" developments with her.
And she didn’t even choose to leave. It was her agent that messed up.
We don't call it "Grilling" we call it "Barbecuing" in Australia. Yes we do it a lot. I live in Western Australia where we have outdoor fire bans for much of the year so it's usually Propane as that is still allowed. In fact this year, due to an excessively dry spell, our local fire bans have been extended to Mid May which is almost Winter. The rains have just started so I believe the bans will be lifted Mid May. I have been waiting for this as I am waiting to melt some Copper and Aluminium, which I have to do outside.
There are some places in the US that people call grilling or cooking out 'barbecuing' but there are also places in the US where barbecue is a specific type of sauce put on meat while grilling and to call anything else that's cooked outdoors but without barbecue sauce 'barbecue' is considered wrong.
@@jamesbell7696 I think we call it that because over here the thing you are cooking on is the Barbecue, we don't call it a grill unless it is inside our kitchen and is usually part of the stove or on the benchtop. I have seen a few American style Smoker Grills in recent times as the internet makes American Barbecue more popular. I still love a good old Aussie Barbie with Lamb Chops and Sausages and Steaks on it.
0:02 These things happen in a monarchy! It isnt a piss poor excuse, i believe JMS was using the exremes of the Roman Empire as a model. You might eant to read the story of how Caligula was going to invade Britain, took one look at the English Channel, got scared and ordered his troops to pick up seashells as the spoils of war!
The Centauri are basically an unquestioning military.
Re: grilling, check out the Stanley Tucci Searching for Italy episode on Florence and you'll witness the best steak preparation you will ever see.
When Londo was standing alone in the window, he was sending death on its way, now when Londo and G'Kar standing in the window they were sending life on its way.
32:00 That's a nice catch on the handshake, but -- just speculating here-- might it not go the other way? You speculated Lockley's detailed message to Bester might be because she wanted Byron to get wind of it. Now she goes in to see him in person when she really doesn't have to. Might that _also_ be putting some information in swiping distance if he chooses to scan her?
Mesquite? You do know that when the pioneers cooked over mesquite fires, it was because they had nothing else available - they wrote about how horrible it was! Hickory, maybe maple - or just plain charcoal. But Mesquite??? I feel like I don't know you guys at all....
Next thing you know, you'll start a new Star Trek Podcast where you look for Babylon 5 like messages.
Natural Gas is better than Propane, it burns hotter. Most gas grills can be converted. Trench a line from the grill to where the gas comes into the house, then have a plummer connect it, and your golden. Cheap gas without the need for tanks.
I believe Australia is into grilling, and I think a lot of South/ Central america cooks a lot of food along those lines. A lot of less developed countries thats fairly common just plain cooking. The ones I don't know is more developed cities and particularly Europe.
😢canadian here. If we can't use fire (campfire or backyard fire pit) then its the grill of your preferred type. There is no 'season' though. It could be snowing and -20 and someone will be outside with tongs 😂
This was Londo's shoes being too tight and him learning to dance again. And Brent said it before I could post.
Time to load up the grill for some slow cooked pulled pork BBQ. I have two uncles who have trailer grills that can handle a whole hog. One design change if I built one is place a box below the tanks. By the time the grill is done ice comes off those tanks in chunks and with the box below you could cool your drinks too.
Interesting how they showed the Centauri ship doing the attack. Old viewers of B5 would recognize them, but new TNT viewers wuoldn't. This is the same what JMS did in episode 1 where they blatantly showed the Narn ships, but the viewers wouldn't recognize them.
Garibaldi was correct about how we divide things up by wars, but not why. We don't mark wars because they're exciting; we mark wars because that's when things happen. Try to remember what significant happened between 1865 and 1898, that didn't involve westward expansion and Native American relocation; it was a very boring time for an American History book.
I have a theory that the reason Mac and Bo hated the taste of Spoo was that it's not meant to be served in a sandwich, which is reinforced by the presentation of it in this episode but they didn't know any better!
'We have always done it that way' is seven words, not six.
Hey, what happened to "I will never forgive Londo. I'm done with him" ?
Also, Babylon 5 is not about "messages". That was the purpose of Star Trek. Babylon 5 is about telling an epic story.
Sure. But Babylon 5 For the First Time is a story unto itself. It’s about the journey of two Star Trek nerds discovering an entirely new series that has some bad history with trek.
I just rewatched that. "There can be no redemption for Londo now. He is dead to me. He must die before the series is over."
We learn, we grow.
Its so sad so many of the B5 actors have passed way.
In b5 realtime Sheridan has gone by now also.
Alot of them were the glue to that show.
vere,dylan, Franklin,gkar,zack.
Lyta and Lennier are MIA.
Maybe they can a show were they Pull Susan Ivanova out
Of early retirement and Lennier can be there too in some kind of futureistic buddy space cop thing.
Oh...it would have to have JMS involved(uncomfortable for
C.C. forget it.)
Spoilers
How did the telepaths get to be better shots than Zack's security folks?
My country has had five coups in the past 150 years, so that's how we divide our history.
Club 65! What am I saying? I don’t know, because if I told myself then I’d have to shoot myself.
I really want to say something with the movies and the next season with Crusade but have to respect the no spoiler rule. If you know you know but there is more than they think. BTW I like a sweet and spicy tomato based BBQ sauce on that pulled pork but some Carolina vinegar based is good for a small amount. Save the grease for gravy in the morning too.
yeah, I had to avoid such things too......
So whats that scene that Jeff mentioned thats one of the best in Babylon 5?
The Long Twilight Struggle, S2E20. One of the best episodes of all IMO but the particular scene Jeff was on about was Londo looking down on the mass-drivering of Narn and realising what he'd done. Then there is G'Kar's speech at the end. Absolute classic episode. The no-context link ua-cam.com/video/hCk-12UtYEI/v-deo.html
He said it was in the freeing-Natoth story line, and wasn't when that story line got started or when they found out it was her, so it must have been when L&G were standing at the window together.
That was 7 words 😂
When you are finished with the series, you will find you had 65 red threads
Bester is the bestest 😂
Club 65!!
TNT did push some things on JMS in addition to having to pad the maybe a half to three quarters of a season of story left to tell. This is why some of it seems great and some of it is not as good to actually bad (Byron’s part). If the series was done today, they would have filmed 10 episodes and ended it, like the CW did with Arrow, but at the time that wan’t done. Funny thing is TNT picked this show up to bring in new viewers. It did, but they eventually discovered that their normal viewers changed the channel and the B5 fans tuned in. The reverse happened when B5 finished.
BBQ: Texan here. Propane? Seriously? Charcoal is ok but wood is best. I use charcoal to maintain heat.
65!
TNT asked for the show to up its sex appeal....
Yeah in the UK we do bbq and grill. But we are pretty bad at it. The reason is our weather while not bad is unreliable. So long cooks often end up with a lone chef standing in the rain. So we tend to quicker spontaneous bbq grilling with whatever we can grab short notice. I do smoke from time to time but it's really frustrating. I do however use real charcoal on a bbq and control temperature with oil or water spray with flavours infused.
In my family it was one person to cook in the rain & one to hold the brolly
So no more Stargate?
Cartagia's body isn't even cold yet; Londo: "We must rectify the emperor's misjudgment and get the shadow ships off our planet!"
Na'toth in the cell, Londo: "I can't change an emperor's order, that would be treason!"
🤨
It's very different _because_ Cartagia's body is still warm. There was chaos and Londo took charge. Now there is a Regent and regular order and the chain of command are back in force. Then there was very little risk of anyone asking "on whose orders?" But now, there is a very good chance and the emperor-in-waiting (who insulted the palace guard bringing his own, weird Narn bodyguard) jumping the gun and giving orders above his station, that really could blow up big time.
65
65 and beyond....
The thing about ratings - I think you are right, but honestly I wish the audience would be mature enough that a scene like that would not be a ratings grab because it makes things feel "real" - but unfortunately it is a rating grab.
A scene that nobody knew would be there before they watched can't possibly be the reason why they watched.
@@_volder but once seen, word spreads and suddenly people who didn't watch start watching in hope that it will happen again.
I'm not saying that it works, but studios did think that way. Keeping in mind that back then shows were not streamed so you couldn't log on somewhere and watch an episode over and if you didn't watch it, tough - it will appear in reruns at some point but for now you missed out, so fratings are not about what was just watched but rather about the expectation of what you will be watching.
In fact, in a later show JMS worked on after B5 was ended, he had a studio executive tell him they wanted him to put a scantily dressed woman added into an episode because it would boost future ratings. JMS actually told them he would not add it because it did not fit the story and he wouldn't stick scenes in that lowered the quality of the show just to boost ratings.
Which suggests to me that in this case, he may well have done it for some other reason, but it would still have been seen as a ratings grab ... or maybe he did it for that reason and regretted it and therefore swore he would never do it again, or he didn't feel strong enough to stand up to the studio at that point - lots of possibilities, but at that point in time, that sort of thing was often done by studios to boost ratings.
"In my head canon, [Sheridan and Lockley being married] never happened" Same, brother. Same. We're all there with you
No, "we" are not. Some of us have no problem recognizing the impulsive train wrecks many people are in their 20s can grow into the kinds of strong and capable people we see in Lockley and Sheridan.
Like the 3rd season of StarTrek, B5 season 5 wasn't produced under the best conditions.
You can really feel the loss of Claudia Christian.
NDAs are total bullshit. Why did it have to take 25+ years for the truth to come out.
Miss Christian in her own words explained what happened. Read up on it.
If JMS had gotten what he wanted I'm sure it would have ended long ago.
People can be great writers and lousy human beings or vice versa.
Sad.
I think season 5 like year 3 of Star Trek is very hot and miss. Maybe it's just the way it ended. I won't comment on until your done.
This is not a spoiler but be aware that the final episode in season 5 was actually filmed a year earlier for what they thought at the time was gonna wrap up the show.
65!
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