YES, 'they/them' can be misgendering!
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2024
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Pronouns: they/them/theirs
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✨Sections
00:00-04-04 Introduction
04:04-08:52 What is misgendering?
08:52-13:04 gender neutrality as gendering
13:04-19:16 calling strangers 'they/them'
19:16-23:01 degendering examples
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"What if we just got rid of gendered pronouns and called everyone 'they/them' all the time?"
A lot of people value being able to be referred to in a way that reflects their gender. Although that would be universalizing, a lot of folks enjoy the way that pronouns recognize their identity, and we shouldn't take that away from everyone. You can only make that decision for yourself! If you think they/them would feel ok for you, feel free to list it in your pronouns and ask people to call you 'they!" Here's a great article that talks about the topic: blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/actually-we-should-not-all-use-they-them-pronouns/
research is a lot of work so you can support me if you want to (uwu) at www.patreon.com/genderdeceriverclub?fan_landing=true
I feel like *eventually* (like probably hundreds of years from now) gender constructs will be gone entirely and that distinction between pronouns won't be a utility any longer. That doesn't mean pronouns have no utility in the moment; they absolutely do. If the world didn't rely on gender constructs, there would be no need to think about this stuff as much as people do.
Because, if everybody was trans-whatever, then how would we possibly know who Is male and who is female? So they can continue mankind.
@@cheesecakeburgler I think it's fair that if you have no way of knowing, they/them is the least likely to cause any harm.
if you have some way of knowing through a basic level of research like checking for pronouns in bio then it's best to take a quick peek.
@@cheesecakeburgler Yeh and I'm pretty sure that's what Milo is saying in their video as well. It's not just that using they/them is bad by default, but it's a good default only if you've taken the minimum effort to see if there's that info out there already.
@@cheesecakeburgler no, what you should do is use your initiative and look at the person. But, if you can't tell the difference between a man and a woman, then you can use your special pronouns.
I know both trans and cis GNC people who hate being called 'they/them' for that reason. If you know that they're a man or a woman (and want to be referred to as such), it hurts them to deny them that.
One of my best friends especially deals with this. She's a GNC cis woman who doesn't want to be referred to with gender-neutral pronouns. Being less feminine doesn't deny her womanhood.
I disagree on the stranger part. Part of it is likely because I come from a country where there are no gendered pronouns at all and so I feel comfortable using they/them on anyone I don't know, even the people I assume are cis. I view they/them like the one and only pronoun in my mother tongue that just means "that person". It frees me from having to gender strangers when I myself don't want to be gendered. Also saying that if I don't use gendered pronouns of someone who "I should see" is trying to be gendered in a certain way, saying it's transphobic is ridiculous. I don't see your gender and I definitely don't see your pronouns from the way you look, I use they/them unless I know otherwise
Really interesting thinking about how this functions in different languages! Re: the part about communicating gender linguistically v. via expression, I think it's only transphobic in that I witness times when people 'see' the gender of cis people but not of trans people who don't pass.
I'm the same. I'm so used to using just one pronoun for everyone, that I sometimes misgender even my closest friends, because their gender doesn't cross my mind. I just blurt out whatever pronoun comes out. Obviously I try to respect everyone's pronouns the best I can, but it is such a weird concept to me, that I would have to think about someone's gender to be able to refer to them. I'm cis and I have she/her in my bio, but in reality I don't care what pronoun people use of me, because to me they are all the same. In my mind they don't define my gender or how people see me. I'd be happy to see all languages switch to gender neutral pronouns.
For the record Vaush changed his mind on neopronouns and he’s the reason I found your channel, and I’m SUPER glad I did! Thanks for doing the things you do!
Basically they/them can be used for misgendering but only after you are to refrain from using they/them according to the referred person.
They/them is specifically for all gender inclusivity, its not new and is not inherently binary exclusionist, its like calling someone a person yes, it is possible to be used as a misgendering assistance label but if you void the all inclusive they/them usage you remove the ability to call everyone by one pronoun which fine, maybe with someone you know and asks you to specifically refrain from using they/them and use their chosen pronouns but in any other situation in which the person does not ask you to avoid they/them it is a must to be label with no ill effects, in these examples they/them can be switched with person/human/someone/adjective etc as examples for gender neutral non misgendering labels in the same sense they/them does.
*they/them is better than calling someone a person over and over again in the place of pronouns, I cannot understand why people want no all inclusive (unless specifically asked not to be used upon said person) pronouns.
The voice of reason.
Another great take, and helpful resource. I have absolutely experienced mispronouning/degendering as a binary trans man--these days only from people who knew me prior to transition and are unwilling to do the mental work to change their understanding of my identity. "They" is not a compromise between their incorrect view of my gender and who I am, because that's not something we can compromise on. You can't "kind of" respect someone's identity; you either do, or you don't.
Yes!! The idea that ‘they’ can be a stepping stone to using correct pronouns is so incorrect and harmful!
@@MiloStewart or your missing the point of what they said and took it personally simply because of your own preconceived idea of how things should work?
100%!!! Thank you so much for speaking out about this issue.
As a trans man that uses he/him, I noticed that as soon as fellow trans folk decided I was a "bad tran" based on pointless discourse, they referred to me as they/them. They ALWAYS would then say "you can use they/them for anyone" which of course is not the case for me. I am not they/them, I am he/him. They/them is only acceptable if someone doesn't know my pronouns yet.
It did 100% feel like because they felt I had a bad take, I was no longer allowed to be treated as masculine. They also used phrases like "uwu" when mocking me, which I felt meant that "lack of masculinity" was the joke - which I strongly feel is transphobic.
Ironically, of course the same people would then accuse me of misgendering by using they/them in a hypothetical about an anonymous person!
Hearing this meant a lot, thanks Milo. Once again you've been an amazing friend to EVERYONE in the community.
P.s. if you made it this far in my long ass comment - may I suggest "catby" or "nyanby"?
It makes me mad how you've been treated. That is so ridiculously hypocritical.
I love your non-binary suggestions for cat person btw.
Hi! I’m a trans/nonbinary person (xe/he) and I am also intersex. I totally agree with you, but I also raise the concept of how degendering/misgendering/mispronouning also affects intersex people, trans or not. A lot of intersex people get degendered due to a lot of the reasons a binary trans person would (perceived gender neutrality, some “contradicting” bodily presentations such as facial hair and having a chest, etc). This has always had both societal and medical affect on intersex people across the board. Even before I started T, my testosterone level was higher, so I grew facial hair, but I also had a chest. So people never knew what to call me. It was very strange as a trans individual whose pronouns include he/him, and people hesitated due to my perceived anatomy. Due to my intersexuality my gender was taken away from me. Even now, on Twitter, I have conversations on how intersectionality between trans and intersex experiences are incredibly important to point out, and how nuance is necessary, but that they are also different. I made a thread about a week ago about how they/them is misgendering. Someone replied after I went into extreme detail about it, and said “the only reason people do this is because they don’t know your pronouns”. Well, you see, I’m on twitter writing this, and my pronouns are right in my bio. There is no room for error.
A conversation too needs to be had about the ways we can have conversations about people who we may or may not know the pronouns of, without using any sort of pronouns at all to avoid misgendering “that person”, “prn/pronoun” in replace of pronouns to account for twitter’s character limit, the person’s name, that person’s username, even with saying things like “the blond haired individual” are all things to consider.
When you think about what a pronoun is, it’s just a form of address that is synonymous with a noun, where if the noun is animate and can express, gets to choose which pronoun is their synonym. Pronouns were created to make languages and such easier to use, making speech easier. With that in mind, there was a time before pronouns existed in the way they do now. Not to say they aren’t important, but it’s unfair to act like there aren’t ramifications to assuming people are ok with certain pronouns, and that there are ways to make your language avoid pronouns entirely in regards to people whose pronouns you don’t know.
TLDR; I really enjoyed your video and I 100% agree with you on everything you said
Thanks so much for your comment and bringing in the importance of intersectionality and solidarity with the intersex community!
Interesting, thanks for talking about this.
Even as a gender fluid nonbinary person, I can't use they/them pronouns for myself because of my past trauma with others using them to only degender me when I still thought I was cis. So now I ether go by he/him or neopronouns (faye/feyem)
Edited for spelling
What is “gender fluid non binary”? What is “faye/feyem”?
@@norman3888 genderfluid means that I feel like my gender fluctuates, nonbinary meaning I don't identify as male nor female, and faye/feyem are the pronouns I am comfortable using.
@@sooweedoopie7613 so how does your gender fluctuate, if you’re not male or female? What does it fluctuate between? Also those pronouns are the stupidest thing I’ve ever seen
@Torbie bruh emoji pronouns💀
@@norman3888 It feels like a part of you does want to learn and be more open minded, but as soon as you stop understanding, or someone doesn't give the response you wanted, you default back to being offensive and belittling because that's "easier". This isn't a healthy approach. People probably aren't going to answer your questions when you've just invalidated them or called part of their identity stupid.
Contrapoints talked about this too in Cancelling. 🙂 As a transgender and non-binary woman who goes by she her and it its for this reason, thank you. 🙂
Another aspect of this I've just realised is that the requirements to communicate all genderedness linguistically rather than through gender expression is quite ableist to people like me who finds language quite a barrier, not only me as well but also people for whom for whatever reason the dominant the dominant language they are required to use is not one they feel familiar with.
Contrapoints was the first person who came to my mind when I saw the title of this video. She was hyper specific in her example, even mentioned that asking for pronouns can be important for binary trans and nonbinary people and that she was speaking from her own personal experience. The backlash took some of those tweets out of context and was disproportionate.
@@hq4287 Thanks for bringing up the point about ableism!
"Non-binary woman"
@@blake6380 "I am qualified to talk about logic"
catgirl, catboy and nyanbinary
Top-comment material
flawless response
How do we make statistics when genders are involved?
New genders appear everyday it seems and that creates a problem if we are to address a statistic where gender is applied. An example could be a statistic covering Covid-19 cases involving gender. How will these be done now that we keep getting more and more genders?
Or are everyone, when it comes to a statistic where gender is a factor still putting themselves into a male or female category based on the fact if the have a uterus or not?
I have so many feelings about this and I totally agree with you on this. I'm like 8 years into my medical transition and so at this point, I don't automatically assume people are clocking me or are deliberately misgendering me because they think I'm trans when they use they/them for me...but when I was like 5 months on T and newly stealth, I DEFINITELY felt that way. For context, before I started uni I was closeted at an all-girls Christian boarding school (super great and fun! 🙃), So when I finished school I moved state to start uni with the sole reason being I could be stealth and get away from the transphobia I was experiencing once people from my old city worked out I was transitioning. Being stealth was my top priority, and something I wanted to maintain both for my comfort, as well as my safety. I went to a few queer events at my uni's LGBT lounge because I had no support network and I wanted to meet people and have a community. After going to a few different events I found I was having people use they/them to refer to me, and I was being asked for my pronouns incessantly. I was new to town, and this town was more progressive, so I didn't know if that was just how the space was and that it was a lot more understanding than I expected and that they referred to everyone like that, or if it was because they could see I was trans. Every time it happened I felt insecure and uncomfortable, and very afraid that I was going to be outed or that I wasn't passing, and it was really distressing. I had literally picked up and moved my entire life to somewhere new so I could start fresh, and I felt like it was all for nothing and that I was just going to be hit with transphobia all over again once I was outed. Before this, I was feeling really confident and was passing pretty much all the time, but every time I went to an event or group there I was being reminded that that might not be the case. I never was able to get over that, and that is probably part of the reason why I separated myself from those spaces IRL. I knew that even in the best-case scenario, that this is just the culture in these spaces and how everyone is treated was true, I would always feel insecure and unsure and second guess myself about whether or not I was passing or being clocked by everyone around me forever, or worse, would realise that I actually didn't pass and everyone could tell I was trans from a mile away, or that I was gonna be outed. I have NO idea which one of those two options it was, and that stressed me out so much that I didn't enjoy being there. I never wanted it to change or anything because I could tell the intention was good (and potentially not even different to how everyone else there was treated), so my choices were to suck it up and work through it or to just not go to those spaces, and I chose the latter.
I think it is interesting that there was so much backlash to this take, and I think it goes to show that sometimes we can be guilty of assuming that the things we might feel are 100% the right direction for the trans community might not be universal and that sometimes we forget that progress for the collective community sometimes comes with a cost for some individuals. I know and feel strongly that trying to encourage society as a whole to not assume gender can have a huge positive impact on the lives of so many trans people, particularly people who are GNC, don't pass or don't identify as binary. At the same time, I have worked hard and put up with a lot of shit to be seen as male, and I like feeling that my gender is recognised without me stating it, I like people defaulting to he/him. I know that moving towards not assuming gender will come at the (admittedly fairly minor) cost of the comfort and euphoria that being assumed correctly provides for me and the other trans people who feel similarly. Although I personally would rather lose that comfort if it means trans people in general are benefitted, that doesn't mean that this is a trade-off with no negatives at all, and imo that loss and discomfort is very valid and real, and is something that several trans people might end up feeling. I wish that these conversations could be talked about more openly, because tbh there isn't really a solution, and either way, trans people are harmed (even if the harm is more significant one way over the other). I think it can be really dismissive when the nuances and complexity surrounding these conversations aren't acknowledged or discussed, and I think it hinders and divides us more than it helps us. There might not be an easy solution, but I think acknowledging that sometimes we have conflicting needs and desires is a good first step.
Thank you for addressing this in such a compassionate, nuanced way. I've had similar thoughts for a while and you articulated them better than I could have.
Damn, Ohio did something right for trans people! It’s unthinkable that this was a controversial take, but it’s really nice to see you talk more on the topic! It’s something I feel like cis allies don’t realize, so this is a really good resource! You explained this phenomenally!
Thank you!
The “laws” of the trans community feel like they change every day. Can we please make this easier to understand? It’s quite annoying because no matter what i do or say or breathe; simply my existence as a cis gay man pisses people off
Wholeheartedly agree! I wonder if it also takes away from non binary identities to think that they/them are just those neutral ones, the ones that aren't gendered. As if they aren't as important as binary pronouns, if that makes sense. I think I'm wording it very poorly but I don't know how else to describe it. I'm a non binary guy who uses he/they so I don't know if what I said rings true for people who use they/them exclusively.
This is such a nuanced and beautifully put video.
I went into this video thinking I wouldn't learn much, that it would just be confirming review...
"yeah I know that they/them isn't suitable for all people too"
But not only is this take so perfectly said, but you also helped me answer some of the personal questions I had for myself and how I view the wider question of gender and how to make people comfortable.
Thank you, so much.
Ahh I’m so glad!
A very interesting discussion! I found the best way to ask for someone's pronouns without making them feel uncomfortable is to say what pronouns I go by first. I have found that if I say my pronouns first, the other person will do the same, not all the time though. But I find it's a good way to show the person that I am receptive to other people's pronouns and to prompt them to tell me theirs without making them feel uncomfortable.
But I agree that the best way to do this is to universally ask people their pronouns. I feel like it's easier to ask people their pronouns online than IRL, because online not everyone shows their face. And since not everyone shows their face, it's quite a reasonable question as to what pronouns they go by (if they don't already have them in their bio).
It's really difficult, how to gender binary trans people who haven't medically transitioned vs gendering gender non-conforming people. But I believe if it looks like someone is intentionally presenting a certain gender (even if they don't 'pass') it might be better to gender them that way then neutrally. But also this concept would lead to me personally getting misgendered more, Im a (trans) demi-guy who uses he/they pronouns but enjoys wearing skirts, and I would very much prefer people don't use she for me.
It's important to bare in mind that many trans people are unable to medically transition even if they wanted to do so. I'm struggling just to get on insurance for the hopes I can get started on T, but I have very little money and can't do it. I don't want people to call me she just because I haven't been able to medically transition.
Rule of thumb: if they tell you call them a certain pronoun, you just do it and don't use they/them instead of the pronouns they want to be referred to.
Thank you! I really appreciated this video. I remember as a fledgling transman, just beginning to transition, I felt unseen and very much so diminished when others would continuously say "they/them" for me, even when I specified I'm binary. I am now treating clients who are binary trans, and I see all of them go through the same thing. However, when I posted this question, I get a BUNCH of invalidating comments from trans and cis people alike (and nonbinary). It's very frustrating to have to defend your OWN experiences. I validate and use the correct pronouns for everyone, and I push for my nonbinary clients to be seen as well. I understand as a society we continue to have the "is it okay to use they/them for an individual?" discussion. But for whatever reason, which makes me want to bash my head against a wall, it is like pulling teeth to say, "Hey, I'm happy finally being a man, please respect that. I worked hard for my gender, please don't take it away." Why can't people within the community see that??? Thank you, thank you again.
Typically I default to they/them for everyone until told otherwise.
Which in my opinion and of many is not misgendering yeah, Milo said that using that to a cis female ( 0:57 ) is misgendering as that person said she uses she/her pronouns in an example.
Basically I am with you and deinclusiding they/them as Milo argues just generates more hate (as as of now there is no other all inclusive unless asked to be refrained of pronoun so they/them is that).
@@natebailey1122 how so, I just do it because with some people I literally can't tell so I just default to the neutral option until I'm corrected.
@@vampyr.cryptid it is a form of degendering
@@baconmacon5553 it's degrading to not assume anything about someone you've just met? Ok then, and we're supposed to be the weird ones
Great video, as always! Love the pink cat ears! I agree that "they" is not a safe default. I've noticed that a lot of cis people seem to want some rule for pronouns that they can apply in all situations, but they don't want the rule to be "ask everyone." In one of my most memorable examples, a cis woman got very angry with me once because her daughter told her that using "they" for everyone was ok, and when I told her that wasn't necessarily true and she should ask for pronouns, she said if "they" wasn't good enough, then I needed to give her an alternative. She was very upset that I was "criticizing" her, but not telling her what she should do instead. It was weird because I did tell her. I said, "Ask people," but, somehow ... that didn't register? She didn't reject the idea. It was more like she didn't even hear it. She kept demanding I tell her what she was supposed to do, like I wasn't saying repeatedly, "You're supposed to ask people for their pronouns." I thought I was being polite and reasonable, but she was acting like I'd accused her of murder. Very strange.
I feel as though I use they/them as an instinctual reflex for everyone for the explicit purpose that it was neutral and therefore I would be less damaging if I slip up. However, I never considered the othering implication.
if people are REFUSING to use someone's preferred binary pronouns then yeah it could be considered erasure or invalidating. but if you don't know them, then it should be harmless. just be polite yall
@@justinbailey5467 no one is dictating my speech. it's being polite and respectful of the other person
I loved this. I’m a trans man and I work in customer service. I notice that customers will either see me as a man or woman and use she/her or he/him accordingly or they read me as queer and call me they. Which at first they was good because it’s better than she but now that I’ve been out for four years and also pass a good amount of time, i really don’t like they and wish people would just ask, I feel like if we’re interacting for even a few minutes it’s better to just ask, I do feel like using they is good if your not sure but it’s also misgendering and also I’m like great I don’t pass today. I’d also feel that if they asked but at least they’d use he/him for the rest of the interaction. I also notice that sometimes people will initially read me as a man then decide they were wrong and start using she/her or they’re just confused and go from he/him to they/them either way is weird. It’s like wow I guess I’m masc at first glance then there must be something about me that screams woman? It just sucks. Sometimes I correct them and say it’s sir but a lot of times it’s just akward. Or I’m helping a couple and they’re arguing about my pronouns and I’m like I’m right here?? Just ask?? Sometimes I’m like no he’s right I’m a guy but it’s just weird. But yeah I think it should be the norm to just ask and not assume they/them is okay because it does feel like my manhood is being denied. Also people who know me and knew me before I came out and I guess aren’t comfortable with using my correct pronouns but also don’t want to hear jerk I guess? Will use they/them?? I’m like it’s better than she but it’s still misgendering you can’t compromise and respect who i am
There’s nothing wrong with asking someone their pronouns if you’re not sure! And if they react hostile they’re probably not the person you want to talk to anyhow
I think it’s fine to introduce your own pronouns, but you should not put someone on the spot for theirs. They might not be comfortable with their identity yet, or they might be in the closet for any number of reasons.
There is, especially for a stranger. There is no way a stranger is meant to know that you use a different pronoun out of everyone else in the area, therefore isn't meant to ask this question specifically to you. It's really hard to keep track of that because we can't go and ask this question to every person we meet in our day just to make sure who uses a pronoun or who doesn't. We cannot break English's default rules for the comfort of an individual. Using "They/Them" is used when one is not sure of the gender of a third person.
Totally agree with what you’re saying, but I have a question. If someone uses neopronouns (and not they/them), calling them they/them is obviously misgendering them. But, if you’re talking about them in a language that doesn’t have neopronouns, can you call them that language’s set of gender neutral pronouns? For example, in Swedish we have three sets of pronouns, han/honom, hon/henne and hen/henom. Hen is the gender neutral one. So say someone is using neopronouns in English, and I have to talk about them in Swedish, can I call them hen/henom? I know ideally I would ask them if they’re okay with it, but if I don’t personally know the person and have never talked to them, that’s not really an option
I think that falls into the same category of “use gender neutral pronouns for someone but you should ask if that’s ok as soon as you get the chance,” which I think is usually the least harmful thing to do! If you can’t ask the person, gender neutral pronouns is probably the best bet! But also I don’t use neopronouns, so I’d be interested in hearing the opinions of someone who does.
@@MiloStewart You let me know when a gender pronoun causes a person harm. I'll wait. In 48 years I've never seen a pronoun do damage to a human body. And if your mental fortitude is so fragile that a pronoun will cause IT damage, than transitioning and gender identity is the least of your issues.
incredibly glad ur talking about this thank u
I’m so confused. Is there any formalised policy on this that I (and others) can refer to? Opinions aside, is there any impartial legislation or guidance on what is acceptable? I don’t want 50 opinions, I want clarity. Thanks 👍
No, there is not. Hence these discussions.
It's become really obvious to me that a lot of people don't actually universally ask for pronouns, they just do it when they think you look trans. Like, I never got asked for my pronouns before I came out, when I was presenting as my AGAB, but it happens constantly now. Idk, in general I think asking for pronouns is good, but it'd be a whole lot better if it really was universal
Can you explain one thing. Why do people ask you for pronouns when they're speaking to you? I mean they don't need them because the only pronoun they will ever use with you is just "you". So it's simple.
And also, why would you want every single person in the world asking for pronouns if they're not gonna be used in a conversation anyway, cos it's all just "you"? I think many people would find it offensive if you asked them their pronouns when it's obvious what they are.
Good to know!! I sort of though they/them was the "default". I am recently coming to terms with being genderqueer so am grateful for this info. :)
For some reason I was surprised to hear you bring up Vaush idk why lol
I like his content for the most part but I absolutely agree with your take about him and neo pronouns. Do I understand neo pronouns? No, I don't, and I don't need to in order to use them and no one is asking me to understand them on that level, but it also doesn't mean I shouldn't refer to that person with those pronouns. He's usually *okay* with trans topics, but he does get pretty bull headed about some things and that's definitely one of them.
I find this really interesting and tough to navigate because of the ways different opinions on they/them reflect in how people handle the issue. Obviously trans people are a diverse group, including on this topic. Everyone engaging in trying to correctly pronoun people wants to respect others and be respected in return. I know of trans people who try to use they/them for everyone, regardless of if they know the correct pronouns. The logic being, they/them is neutral and should be the norm for people who haven't specified their pronouns. I understand their way of thinking, but I also see the problematic result of not linguistically affirming anyone who doesn't use they/them. It's over-correcting on the issue of mispronouning people to the point that they're doing it sometimes, just in the opposite direction.
I never even concidered that when I use they them mixed with binary pronouns as I do this all the time with cos or trans people I dunno some sentences just sound right with they but if someone was explicit that it made them uncomfortable I’d try my beat not to do this
Thanks for making this video Milo :D
This was a good take!!
I use it it's And a few neo pronouns and if you don't use my pronouns I don't talk to you so this is a good video thanks 🌺💜
I don't know why I feel the need to state that I am definitely an adult but adult representation of exclusive neo-pronouns is important
I really do have to disagree with the notion that only the people who use they them before asking pronouns are putting a biologically essentialist notion of gender on things because I try so hard to get away from that binary presentation that binary trans people who might want to have that gendering me Like her in the tiktok describing is putting that biological essentialism right back on me. So I'm not really sure what anybody wants because everybody's being transphobic to each other. If you assume that I use she or he pronouns you are being Just as transphobic. You should be using they pronouns until you ask me. I do not know based on your physical characteristics whether you use she or he or they pronouns and I must ask you. I do not see any of your traits as woman or man I do not see you as "trying to look like a woman", You look like you do and I don't know what pronouns I should use and I'm going to damn well ask! If you were not wearing a pronoun button I simply don't know. There are a lot more sides to this argument than anybody is looking at both sides have excellent points. But I think bringing up bioessentialism was a big mess up. Because that makes the binary trans people just as bioessentialist for wanting to use specific pronouns for hiding specific traits and emphasizing specific traits.
I have to do this with cis people too so maybe it's just me but this argument only holds so much water when you go deeper into the fact that cis people don't have as much visual variance unless you look at people who pancake on makeup to look a particular way. Which is what she's talking about but that is not the majority of society that I've run into. And I really think that's a flaw in the argument.
I'm giving thoughts as we go along which I really like to do.
It does frustrate me when people say this gives gender categories a more rigid definition. Again because I work so hard to get people to ask me my pronouns. So to hear people say dear God don't ask me my pronouns I don't want to be asked just because I look masculine or androgynous or feminine and your rigidifying gender categories, It's incredibly painful and honestly kind of triggering. The video isn't figuring don't worry but I do think it can be harmful to perpetuate that idea as well and they need to be just as careful as we are as non-binary people.
I'm using speech to text please be kind about how things look in the paragraph
A term I've heard for non binary cat folks is nyan binary. Cat boys, cat girls, and nyan binary.
Or you could instead lose all attachment to the words people choose to associate with you.
My mom does this with a specific trans guy friend of mine, i tryed and failed to explain thats not ok
Hey, love your videos, it's always mindblowing even tho I'm enby. Just want to talk about the part where you said something like "I'm not saying it is tranphobic or racist to do X", I'm POC and this felt weird and with a little bit of time to think I discovered why, so, if you are a white person you kinda don't get to say what is racism and what is not, and I'm trying to say this in the gentlest way possible 'cause it's a sensitive subject (and also clarifying because I don't want anyone to see me as aggressive, but I also hate having to do this 'cause that's also a racism tool, anyway) instead I would suggest for you to put it like this "Oh, I don't think that's a racist thing, but I'm white, so Idk if people of color would disagree with that" dunno if that's perfect, English is not my first language, but if makes it easier just think about how you would like cis people talking about not thinking something is transphobic whether it is or not
I totally get that! My bad! Thanks for the comment and the suggestions!
@@MiloStewart 💜
I found this video a little confusing. I clicked on it thinking I’d agree bc the title made sense, but I think the message you were trying to convey got a little muddled. For instance, I wasn’t sure if you were saying it was ok to assume someone’s pronouns based off of non verbal cues or if that was something to avoid. I think the vid could have benefited from a short, summary at the end. Like I get that the whole point of the vid was to introduce nuance that couldn’t be expressed via Twitter, but it still felt a little confusing.
I did appreciate what you said at the end about learning neo-pronouns, and about not misgendering trans people you disagree with.
Also, I’ve heard some folks online call themselves nyan-binary, if you were still looking for the NB cat people, lol.
Thanks for the criticism! I definitely struggle with knowing how to put things simply so I end up not directly stating some points. I brought up assuming gender as a way to contrast how trans people are read vs. cis people, but I don't think there's a way to stop assuming everyone's genders mentally in entitreity (we can stop ourselves from voicing that assumption even if we can't stop the mental connections that happen automatically - though the way we assume genders deserved more scrutiny). The only way I can see that disparity being closed while doing the least amount of harm is to ask everyone for their pronouns universally, even for people who you would feel 'safe' in your assumption of their gender.
An interesting and contraversal things to talk about. That is not a problem that has a solution, more just one to think about. Is that you can misgender people completely unintentionally, even if you try your hardest not to. The most polar example of this is when a trans person isn't out to you and introducing themself with the wrong pronouns, using those pronouns is the most correct and safest thing for them that you can do, but they are still being misgendered. Just to think about how most of the time misgendering is hostile and is always when it is intentionally going against what you know the person you're talking to wants. Buy there are also times where misgendering is unavoidable, and while still hurting the person, trans people have the agency to choose what situations they want/need to be misgendered in.
Sorry but I'm absolutely against universally asking people for their pronouns, especially people you've just met. I'm semi-closeted, and really not looking forward to having to make a snap decision on whether to A. lie and misgender myself (which, ow) but being safe or B. correctly gender myself but feeling unsafe for as long as I am in that situation, and then possibly having the people I just told my pronouns to out me to a whole bunch of other people. Just hell no. Telling people you're a they/them puts a huge target on your back. You of all people should know that.
The issue I'm bringing up about asking for pronouns is that whether or not you do it hurts one group of people regardless. I'm sorry for the ways asking for pronouns hurts you. A separate topic that I didn't want to group in with this video is how to reduce harm when asking for pronouns. For example, I think introduction circles could do less harm if they prompt people to share pronouns but only if they want to. I don't think anyone should be forced to share pronouns, and finding ways to leave that option open might be the best middle ground.
@@MiloStewart Right, yeah. It's a very complicated issue with no easy answers.
In my opinion, asking for pronouns should be done one on one, not in a group. It's much easier to guesstimate one person's acceptance level than 15, and it's easier to take some time to explain in detail and ask not to be outed, and if you decide not to share your pronouns, then that's only going to affect how one person sees you, not 15.
This video reminds me of the time when my sister had me meet her girlfriend. She was super androgynous looking like every other nb person I’d met, so I immediately defaulted to they/them. She looked at me super confusedly, and I asked my sister about it. Turns out, she was just a very androgynous-presenting cis woman. And there id been thinking I was getting ahead of the pronoun game lol.
Interesting video, thanks for this!
as a nonbinary person who doesn't use they/them, (he/him/it + neos) thank you for talking about this!!
binary trans guy, but hey! same pronouns (same hat.meme)
If there are nonbinary people and they're shouldn't be any labels and everyone is equal then we can and should completely eradicate political correctness and feminism. Just saying.
@@terryknight5869 yes, we wouldn’t have the need for feminism and other pro equality movements if there was equality. I don’t think you’re making the point you think you’re making.
Like I get where this video is coming from but I just don’t know. I’m a woman and I don’t mind being referred to in a gender-neutral way. In fact sometimes I kinda like it 🤷🏻♀️ maybe I just don’t care as much about my gender as so many seem to. Is that a thing? I’m not “gender neutral” I’m just “gender indifferent”.
I don’t think this has to do with you then. I go by she they so I think that this video isn’t about people like us; it’s about people who use only one set of pronouns that aren’t they them
@@elishevaw.4158 my point was that I don’t use “They/them” but am not bothered by being they/them’d. Not everyone who “goes by” a certain set of pronouns puts the same level of importance on said pronouns, that’s all I’m saying. When someone says that “they/theming people who identify within the gender binary IS misgendering”, they’re framing the conversation in an abstract, open forum-topic sort of way, the conversation doesn’t have anything to do with anyone in particular, it’s an abstract discussion - it’s not the same as saying “I know people within the gender binary who feel uncomfortable being they/them’d”, no one’s arguing against the fact that this experience happens. But when you assert something like “it IS misgendering”, there’s a universality to that assertion which is what is contentious here. I’m sure there are a lot more gender indifferent people then most people are made to believe. I they/them people all day long and no one out in the wild seems to care.
@@zenleeparadise I feel the exact same way as you, but I'm a cis guy. In my actual experience, I much prefer people who refer to me with "they/them" before they know what my pronouns are, because those people tend to make the least assumptions about other parts of my identity. People who automatically call me "he" without asking also tend to wrongly assume my personality, my hobbies and my sexuality, because I'm not the stereotypical cis guy that they imagine when they hear "he/him".
And when people realize that I'm not the stereotypical cis man they have in their heads, they automatically assume I'm the "opposite" of that, which in their minds is a feminine-presenting gay man, which is not true either. I've had people assume my sexuality countless times, and not a single one of them has ever done it correctly, even though bi people are not exactly uncommon.
I thought this was a normal take, I have a friend who uses it/its pronouns, so I make sure to call it "it" and never "they" but use they to refer to its whole plural system it is part of.
I'm blind, I ask anyone their pronouns if I'm gonna talk with them much and it's not made clear through context. (how the person introduces themself or is introduced by a friend/family member.)
2:28 what about nyanbinary?
Yes. Thank you.
How is it that the cat ears make them look more masculine?
solid video. you hit every nail on the head. I feel like in terms of denotation, they/them is neutral, but connotation is everything. ppl often default to they/them pronouns if they see a visibly queer person or clockable trans person as means of ‘othering’ them. it’s rarely a true gesture of gender neutrality as it’s conditional upon how they perceive you.
I think using they/them in this context is acceptable in two scenarios: when you don’t know someone’s gender (in a hypothetical, or in reference to a person whose presentation you haven’t seen); and when you see a person whose pronouns you’re unsure of and you’re unable to find out (like if they’re in a video, a stranger, busy, etc.).
ik transmed youtubers back in the day often resorted to ‘they’ for ppl they deemed transtrenders, even if they opt for binary pronouns. it also seems to be the default choice when certain left wing ppl discuss trans ppl they don’t respect/disagree with, like you said w/vaush. it’s the ‘woke’ equivalent of calling caitlyn jenner a man/he bc she’s a shitty person. much like terf rhetoric (both the ‘trans women are invasive predators’ and ‘trans men are our lost lesbian sisters’ narratives), though less extreme, it’s just another way transphobia can be packaged in a more acceptable way. don’t get me wrong, I hate conservatives, but at least they’re upfront about their bigotry.
see, i completely understand your points and the point of every trans person affected by the transphobic parts of someone calling you "they", like lena said about preferring if someone assumed she was a "he", because then they don't have to stop and think about how she might identify. but for me, calling people "they" unless told otherwise is something i do for EVERYONE. literally every person i meet, i never assume anyone's gender and as a person on the MOGAI spectrum, also expect everyone will do the same for me.
of course if someone tells me they strictly use one set of pronouns, or neopronouns, i will use those strictly for that person because that's just common decency. i just think assuming that everyone who uses they/them for strangers has to stop and wonder "what" you are, is a bad .. mindset? i get that it can come from trauma, but i don't enforce gender stereotypes on anyone, i don't even enforce neutral stereotypes on anyone, i just call EVERYONE an unharmful set of pronouns until i know what they use.
just thought i'd give a different perspective!
completely irrelevant to the actual point of the video (which is very good), but... 4:19 /mis'jendər/? you're telling me it's pronounced meesyender?? I've been saying /mɪsˈdʒɛndə/ all my life like a fool!
Yay cat boy! I love your outfits so much. I gotta take notes.
I personally would feel fine being called they/them by someone who for their own ideological reasons doesn't want to use gendered pronouns for other people, or being labelled as not truly male or female in a sense that all of humanity is nonbinary and the gender binary doesn't exist.
As long as the pronoun isn't a statement about *me* it can't really be misgendering, I can just misinterpret it as such and still be hurt by it.
But the moment a cis person makes a distinction between the "binary"ness of cis people and trans people, and refers to me as they/them simply because I am trans, I consider that misgendering, because it is actively failing to acknowledge my gender identity after I have told you a set of pronouns I would prefer.
Going around using the correct pronoun sets for all cis people, and then using they/them for all trans people regardless of their identity, is problematic, because it implies a negative distinction between the total set of gender identities trans people can assume and the total set of gender identities cis people can assume, and it bars being part of a binaristic category from trans people who may want or need that choice. In that way, they/them can and has been actively invalidating to be in a way that struck exactly the same chord as more apparently widely agreed upon definitions of "misgendering".
I do think that they/them occupies a different space in actual common use than he/him or she/her and shouldn't be barred from being used in rigorously defined categories of usage on pain of death by cancelling for any person in any context that uses it that way, because they/them is flexible and doesn't assume a lot about the person in question. Language is a fluid thing, and just like how they/them can facilitate fluidity of gender roles it can also facilitate fluidity of language.
In the age of neopronouns, pronouns in English has become artful and practical in use, and I think that theoretically can be done in good faith towards other people as well as yourself. If you want to use they/them for literally everyone until they state their gender or pronouns to you, it becomes less "on you" if binary trans people take offense at having they/them used for them at first. At some point, the fact that English has gendered pronouns and it's kind of impossible to actually consistently discern someone's preferred pronouns from their appearance becomes a logistical problem that there are multiple possible solutions to that isn't really anyone's fault.
literally this. i use ve/ver/vis only and people keep calling me they/them and don't understand how that's a problem. i have a similar thing when people just avoid using any pronouns for me too. it just feels icky.
Hello one that is worthy. What sounds are sounds that make you vibe?
so in love with this take as well as the cat trans representation
if youre not able to apply this universally to cis/straight people too, then yes. I agree. But if you are able to throw a they at everyone in all spaces for folks of all genders and presentations - it breaks down transphobia in non-queer spaces
i find it weird that this is a controversial take? purposefully using incorrect pronouns is a shit thing?
Neutral to Cat girl or boy could be cat pal!
I've also heard nyanbinary and I made up kittenby. Cat pal is a good one :)
what stream did Vaush misgender someone?
He was reacting to Blaire White’s video on neopronouns
2:24 nyanbinary
Nyanbinary
This seems confusing and unnecessary, in my opinion. Like, initially people’s issue with they/them singular being used was the claim that they’re being asked to speak in a “grammatically incorrect” way, and rightly so this argument was pushed back against by pointing out that we use they/them singular all the time, and it’s not always nor has it ever always been used for the explicit purpose of being gender neutral, it just happens to be gender neutral. If you call a woman by a gender neutral pronoun you’re not stripping them of their womanhood, you’re in fact not commenting on their womanhood at all.
And I do think it can be done maliciously or as a way to intentionally avoid gendering someone properly (the way streamer Destiny only refers to streamer Demonmama (twitch drama lol) in a gender-neutral way like 90% of the time sits weird with me). But sometimes language sincerely just naturally comes out in a gender-neutral way and nothing is meant by it. I think intent is very important with this matter in particular but idk.
bs. i don't use they/them and calling me they/them is misgendering because it feels shitty.
@@misfitrmdiqpiq why does everyone on the internet come into every interaction so freakin heated? Honestly they’re like “share your opinions below” and so I worked through them, even admitted uncertainty in them, and your first response to me, a person you don’t even know, is “bullshit”, indicating that I’m being in some way dishonest or insincere?
You don’t even know me. I’m sorry if you feel shitty, I wouldn’t use they/them for someone who explicitly says they don’t like it, but the notion that we should go through life assuming everyone feels this way about these things is unfair given the mixed responses this video has already received - plenty of people think nothing of being they/them’d. Not everyone who has a different experience of the world or a different perspective from you is bullshitting you.
Its only kisgendering when its intentional. They/them are gender neutral pronouns and are safe to use as a default for anyone, unless they tell you they dont identify with those pronouns. Then you are intentionally misgendering them
Thank you. My mom would purposely not use my pronouns (he/him) and use they/them for me anyways.
Milo was riiiiiiiight~! Trans Catgirl solidarity. I use “nyanbie”.
you have a distinctive misunderstanding of the usage of they/them, as such I have a hard tie following your non existing logic. your ideas are definitely not realistic, and it is laughable to listen to them. not everyone cares about your misgendering ideology, or your belief that everyone is a racist because of biases which is nonsense. also no one has to be political to void being part of the problem as you see it, doing so is an even worse problem and you might want to stop doing it. no I won't shame you, abuse you or threaten you, just appeal to your efforts to wake up and sop being an sjw who fails to follow facts properly. anyone who feels misgendered is simply projecting themselves into situations that are created by themselves.
I’m at the age where I forget people’s names, let alone their pronouns. Are you saying that forgetting and accidentally “misgendering” is on the same egregious level of transphobia as speaking up against trans people’s human rights? If so, a) I envy your comfortable life, but b) I’m worried about your inability to handle the disappointment, disrespect and trauma that life brings you as a human being. Good luck to you 😬
I explicitly state in the video that I’m not calling all misgendering transphobia
The non binary form of cat girl/boy is nyaanby
My dad keeps calling my brother they/them even though he is a boy and wants he/him. So frustrating!
My mom does this to me, my dad uses no pronouns (I use he/him too). It can be amazing the extent in which "allies" will go to misgender you!
Hi
I use the same neutral system for maga-tall mustachio, but they usually get offended that I don't assume he him or treat them like a "normal guy" like they want me to. They know that engaging with the language a little pulls them a little bit closer our way, that's why they retreat into jokes if you ask them their pronouns. Metaphorically hiding in their rooms because the trans are dominating the living room. They too scared to join the world as it really is. They keep popping those jokes off like they will outlast a passing fad if they just ignore it enough. They are mistaken. They are being dragged.
Cis people can take different pronouns too if they want. Asking cis people their pronouns can remind them that they have power over their pronouns, and that power is being offered to them right then and there.
It's a way of saying " You decide how I treat you". It's glorious.
Oh okay I was worried that if I called someone they/them if I didn’t know their gender I was misgendering them. I understand now lol.
Thank you for talking about degendering! I'm an autigender transmasc (he/him and xe/xem) but don't use they/them because it doesn't mesh with my sense of gender. I find being called they/them glosses over my gender/attempts to nullify it rather than acknowledging it.
They mean there are multiple people. If it's a girl just use she, lol
THIS was a controversial take? Damn
🙄
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