My problem with “transmasculine” (And can we talk about AFAB/AMAB, too?)
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- Опубліковано 19 чер 2024
- These labels are put onto me, and I think that causes harm. Let's talk about it!
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✨ Resources
VIn's article: / alternatives-to-afab-a...
Transmasc wiki: nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Transmasc...
Transmasc Healthline Article: www.healthline.com/health/tra...
Transfem wiki: nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Transfemi...
Transfem Healthline article: www.healthline.com/health/tra...
AFAB/AMAB wiki: nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Sexes#Ass...
"Transfeminine!!!" by Jane Nance: archive.org/details/tvtstapes...
✨Video Sections
Intro: 00:00-02:11
History and usage: 02:11-06:35
Criticisms: 06:35-12:47
My relationship to 'transmasc': 12:47-15:34
Alternatives and community: 15:34-21:56
Rainbow background: • 🌈 Rainbow Growing 💗 He...
I like identifying as transmasc because I'm trans and nonbinary and I'm moving closer to masculine. I don't know if I'll always identify with this label, but right now it works for me. I think we have a tendency to apply our identity labels to others who identify similarly without even realizing it. Its an interesting world to navigate, and I'm glad we are having this conversation.
Totally! I don’t want to take away from your experiences, and I’m glad you found a label that fits you!
Same
twinning 🎀
Trans masc is a label that fits for me, because I'm definitely masc, but not a man. This did give me a lot of food for thought though, and I hadn't thought about it this way before!
What makes someone “ not a man” what is man ?
Time Machine Kitten Wow, non-binary erasure at its finest
@@adk7165 Stop putting words in non-binary people's mouths through sassy commentary. We are not and never have been saying that a woman who is a little bit more masculine or a man who is a little bit more feminine must be non-binary. Of course there exist all sorts of people on all sorts of different spectrums. Someone's masculinity to femininity ratio doesn't determine their gender.
Non-binary people simply don't identify with the label man or women either fully or partially. That's it. Non-binary people can be completely feminine, completely masculine, a mix, or fall outside that spectrum entirely. Just like men and women can as well.
@@lorelei1350 non binary ideology completely erases trans people. Thanks for supporting that.
@@lorelei1350 there are male and female. That’s it. Get over it. Yes there are spectrums of each but a feminine male is still and male and a masculine female is still a female. Biology people. Science is here for a reason. I wonder do you argue about math with the same vigor
I'm a binary trans man and people referring to me as transmasc makes me feel uncomfortable cause it feels like they're saying I'm not a man I'm just "masculine" but that's just my personal experience. Also off topic but those earrings are super duper cool!
Oooh that’s a perspective I haven’t heard but I’m glad you shared this experience you’ve had! (Tho it sucks that happens to you and I hope language changes!) And thanks!!
I agree! I'm a binary trans man and unsure of why people try to push me outside of my own identity into a gray space that doesn't fit me personally.
Totally agree. I’m also a transman, and if someone were to say I’m transmasc, that would make me feel like I’m not “fully a man” and invalidate my identity
Yep, exactly. Not just "not a man" but like, you don't even count if you're gnc or feminine AND binary
I started saying "was AMAB", to show that the assigning **was** an action in the past done to me (a verb, not an adjective) & nothing more aside from the effects it had on my life without my consent.
Using AMAB and AFAB as an adjective doesn't sit right with me, and gets easily abused as a stand in for "biology".
oooh I like that!
@@MiloStewart Yes, and it functions as a red flag litmus test, because anyone who pushes back on the "was" part is probably using AMAB as a synonym for "male". They push back against the verb because they see it as an adjective that i can never escape.
Holy shit I like that
I understand your take on this but I think it really depends on age. I'm a 47 year old trans guy. My assigned gender at birth dictated the life I was allowed to live for decades. Growing up in the 80's gender was a binary (at least in how expression was permitted, not talking identity here) and based exclusively on your assigned gender at birth. Non-binary didn't even exist as a concept.
Things are radically different now. Even very young children are identifying and expressing gender in ways that have little to do with their assigned gender at birth. I can see a future (at least in some environments) where AGAB has little impact on how a person experiences gender.
I think it's important to acknowledge that a person's AGAB can absolutely define their gender experiences. I'm not saying that's a good thing but to say that it "was" and isn't still a big part of who I am is unfair to me and (usually) other older trans people who were forced to live lives based on that assigned gender for decades.
(Note: I have zero issues with you using AGAB as a verb and your point overall. I just want you to be aware that when talking about someone like me who lived life as my AGAB for over 4 decades, it makes me uncomfortable to have that erased, both the good and the bad.)
@@kerycktotebag8164Your sex was observed at birth. Nothing was done to you, you made your body yourself.
i personally use transmasc to label myself because i’m nonbinary and feel connected to masculinity but not manhood and being a man. i totally agree with what you said and you make great arguments! :D
12:13 "the binary between transmasculine and transfeminine is like the male/female binary but woke because we're including nonbinary people into the binary - which is not what I asked for!" EXACTLY!!!!! I've been feeling this for so long and never known how to put it into words but you got it so right. I feel like in the process of creating new, more intricate labels to describe different places on the trans spectrum, we've also ended up with a community (especially in online spaces) that is obsessed with labeling and categorizing the trans experience and assuming that all people who have the same label have the same experiences. It can be really exhausting sometimes.
+
Specific labels make some people feel more comfortable but you are right about people being obsessed with labeling and sterotypes
Wow I didn't even know some people just categorized all afab trans people as transmasc. That's very inaccurate. I'm transitioning away from femininity, not towards masculinity. I'm neither. That's the whole point of this 'agender' thing. I'm not 'masc' just because I'm afab. I don't feel included in 'transmasculine' and I never have.
Chopping off boobs is to make me look more neutral, not to look like a guy. (and yeah a whole lot could be said about sexism, defaults and why that is considered more neutral, but my dysphoria just is the way it is, no point intellectualizing it too much.)
yea, ive always been a bit of a tomboy but not really 'masculine'... not feminine either... definitely kinda rest somewhere in the middle and dont relate to being transmasc... i always assumed transmasc was essentially like more binary transgender male. or at least leaning that way as opposed to nonbinary or agender.
Fuck yes THANK YOU I also always get categorized as “femme” like in the grouping of “women and femmes” because I’m constantly perceived as a woman and I hate it so much
Oh my gosh, the phrase “women and femmes” as a way to talk about non-men bothers me so much! Ugh! Can totally considerate with you!
Wym they are trying to include more ppl who aren't women
Are u saying that being perceived as "femme" would also bother you?
But so you probably experienced trans misogyny so wouldn't trans women and trans femme people relate to that? I'm confused
i was afab and am not a girl, but i have never felt right calling myself “transmasc” because while i love to play around with masculine presentation i do not actually feel or identify with masculinity/anything “male” whatsoever
I like using transmasc for myself, because it feels masculine but not "manly". I identify as a demiboy, and while I'm comfortable with terms like guy, boy, or dude, I don't like calling myself a man (the slang way is fine) or male, they feel too "macho/manly" for me. For me, I associate words like "man" with aggressively cisnormative ideas of masculinity, like facial/body hair or muscles, things that I don't want. Maybe that's silly, makes me "not trans enough" or an "uwu softboi," but that's what makes me happy. Sorry for rambling, I just needed to let my feelings out I guess ^-^;
This is exactly how I feel. But I never considered myself trans. I don't mind people thinking I'm a guy or treating me like a guy but I definitely identify as female.
i'm nonbinary; and if i'm being unnecessarily specific: agender - and AFAB , i couldn't really care less about the pronouns people refer to me with. words like transmasculine and transfeminine don't really resonate with me because i don't resonate with the idea of wanting to be male or female, i'm just. a person, that's here.
As someone who id’s as transmasculine, I don’t think that those terms (and others) should be forced on trans people. Everyone has a specific and unique experience with their gender and should choose the language they use to describe themselves. Great video!
Exactly! There are so many labels and each one is a little more niche than the next. Everyone's experience is different and different labels fit different people
Ive been thinking about this recently, as someone who i dentified as a trans woman and then as a non binary person, i always felt uncomfortable with the term transfeminine, i even told someone that the point of my transition is to be more feminine.
But looking back that most certantly doesnt describe my experience, i dont like to be that feminine and i like to have a more masculine expression sometimes.
I even want bottom surgery and im currently on hrt but i never felt feminine for wanting those, im even uncomfortable with certain terms and descriptors of womanhood applied to me .
But i already came out as a trans woman and its been a while for everyone to get used to it, especially sonce where i live trans people arent well known so i know ill most likely be a lot of peoples first encounter with a trans person so i feel pressure to be a good feminine trans woman and defy their expectations about trans women but im not that, and im starting to realize that thats ok.
I relate to this so much! I call myself a trans woman usually for simplicity, but it definitely doesn't encompass my whole experience. One phrase I've heard is "I want to look masculine the way girls do" and it honestly fits pretty well.
Let's both buck the stereotypes and present the way we want to present! ❤️❤️❤️
@@lepannean4231 And thats on periodt.
You’ve got to first understand that “fee feminine “ is not an actual thing .. appearing feminine is .
For me, I don't describe myself as transmasc because it feels like I'm describing my gender as masculine when that's not necessarily the case. I can be pretty feminine with my long hair and dresses lol. I much rather just use the term "trans" or "nonbinary man" (I don't like the term trans man or ftm for myself) when I describe my gender. Nonbinary man is vauge enough for me and doesn't imply what my assigned sex is, and instead only describes just my gender
That’s awesome!
I like nonbinary man too! I'm glad to see more ppl using it!
Without ever having looked it up, I've been self-describing myself as "trans feminine" in the same way one might use "feminine." Feminine is an adjective, not a noun like an identity. You can't be "a feminine." You can only be "a feminine person." "Trans feminine" describes me. It's the type of gender that I have. Great video though! I might have to look into alternatives.
This, kinda complex relationship with the term "transmasc" really hits home for me.
I've been out for 4 years now as trans, but I've only recently realized how inaccurate the term is for me.
I'm a pangeder man, I'm AFAB. And most people assume because of that MAN part, I am a transmasc person.
Which is terrible for many reasons, one of them being: It automatically puts me in a box where, the Nonbinary (pangeder) part of my identity is ignored, in most social situations within the trans community. And it leads to instances where, I've been told that I didn't have the right to speak on issues affecting fem/femme presenting trans people, despite me very much being one.
(for me) transmasc wasn't a label I chose, it's a label people give me to understand what I am.
But, transmasc doesn't encompass everything I am. *And I am a lot.*
It encompasses some things, but if I were to use it to describe myself all together, I'd erase every other thing that I am.
perfectly said
As another pangender person, I feel like this hits home with how I feel a lot of trans language falls short in being able to articulate my experience, even though I am comfortable and appreciate the term "transmasc" for myself. Even when there is language you feel fits you in a certain way, it never really guarantees people don't come into it with their own assumptions or limitations in how they see you.
@@riversrhodell2359 Exactlyy.
The term helped me when I was still reluctant to label myself as a trans man because I was so scared of jumping from one suffocating gender corset to the next if I went "all the way" (that was my wording in my brain back then) to another binary gender. I also felt like i wasn't masculine enough in my presentation for that, even though I eventually learnt to separate between my identity and the way I present (which is, in fact, very masc, I just like metallic nail polish). However over time it gradually felt like it was always missing the mark and constantly had me rethinking my understanding of masculinity. Eventually, I realized that I am just a guy who likes nail polish and that gave me a lot of inner peace. One can be a trans man and still have some gender non confirming aspects in one's presentation. So basically all that held me back was some internalized toxic masculinity. As someone who went from "facts over feelings" nonsense all the way to listening to trans people and finally acknowledging my own trans identity at the age of 30 the term "transmasculine" did help me to dare step out of the cis-Box I had forced myself into because I thought I wasn't trans enough to actually transition. But at the same time it does have a strong "man light" vibe to it, depending on who is using it.
Your earrings are so cute! Another rigorously defended, cogent, and nuanced argument. Thank you for introducing me to another thought-provoking perspective. Your insight is constantly helping me grow into a more thoughtful and aware person that can more meaningfully serve as an advocate for those around me who struggle in ways that I could never comprehend. 👏💕 keep up the great work.
Thank you so much!!!
Top tier video!
I resonate with a lot of the things you talked about here - I've always felt a lot of resonance with the term 'transmasc' despite being AMAB. And even though I've never seriously used the word to describe myself, theres a lot of connotations behind the word that I at the time felt some connection to. And it definitely comes from this binary-ification of the terms transfemme and transmasc as seemingly the only ways someone can identify as nonbinary, which as you mention is super ironic. But a lot of it also comes from the fact that it reinforces that being AMAB, presenting masculine, and being nonbinary aren't all possible at the same time. Also I feel that sheer validation of being read by someone transitioning the other way as One Of Them 🤣
Also you should make "tell a cis person they're brave" coupons! Ive been needing me an entire booklet of them recently-
It's such an odd place when 'masculine' and 'feminine' are used to replace 'man' and 'woman' when we also know that gender expression and gender aren't synonymous, so of course people will identify with transmasc/fem who aren't AFAB or AMAB respectively!!!!
omg i used that rainbow background thing in one of my videos too!! great video!
I'm okay being called AFAB, but I don't feel like "transmasculine" describes me well at all. I'm agender and for me, the concepts of feminine and masculine aren't really relevant to my sense of self. So... using "masculine" to describe a part of my identity seems wrong, and more of an outside judgement than something that truly resonates with me (similar to how I feel about the concept of gender itself).
I'm medically transitioning with the goal of a more androgynous body, so I suppose "trans-androgynous" or "trans-neutral" might be accurate in a physical sense? But even then, they don't resonate. I think less of myself as androgynous or gender-neutral, and more like gender is just not applicable to me. I'm not sure there's really any sort of equivalent term I'd want to use for myself.
i am not intersex but i have alot of "manly features" like big hands, or facial hair and they help me alot with my gender dysphoria, i feel euphoric about these parts of me in private. but im also expected to remove my facial hair bc that's what society expects a woman to do and as much as i hate it, im still perceived as a woman....and it just makes it difficult 4 me to navigate through my dysphoria and being trans in general bc for the longest time i was taught to feel negatively about these parts of my body that i admired in private and now my relationship with my body is more confusing than ever bc some things about my body that i like, i feel deeply embarrassed about in public and the things im dysphoric about, im supposed to like ??? anyways my point is gender binary sucks and it's uncomfortable
Hopefully things will shift to be more open to you, you deserve gender euphoria!
I'm a cis woman I think, who has many typically masculine traits in my build (tall, broad shouldered, big hands and feet, angular nose bridge) that are weirdly very comfortable to embrace, along with some very high femme details (high voice, curvy, v round features) that together lead to some indecisive fluidity to my internal expression.
It functionally makes me comfortable with just about any identity but high-masc, but leaves my goals somewhere in the fluidity area where ocassionally I want to be very femme, and ocassionally indeterminate.
Milo, this is such an affirming and thought-provoking video! You are saying a lot of what I have thought and said to people!
I struggled with my trans identity for a long time - mostly because the only trans person I knew personally was a transmed, but also because I knew that even though I didn't align with my assigned sex at birth, I didn't want to be a boy or a man, so I figured that must mean I was just a very masculine woman. A lot of factors went into me finally realizing who I am, but one of them was discovering the term "transmasculine." I remember feeling like I had finally found a word that described me in a way I was comfortable with, without calling me a boy or a girl it acknowledged that I wanted to dress like a man and masculinize my body.
That said, I went into this video trying very hard not to feel defensive, and I feel like you worded this wonderfully. I'm still struggling to understand, but in my limited understanding I feel like I'm more aware of other's experiences. I don't live around a lot of other trans people. It's mostly just me and my girlfriend. (I no longer speak with that transmed friend of mine. I did get him to question his stance tho, so I guess that's positive!)
Since most of my community is online, it's easy to filter out those whose experiences differ from mine. That can lead to a tunnel vision sort of view on the community as a whole. Sometimes you just gotta bonk yourself on the head and remember how fluid humanity really is, especially in terms of sexuality and gender.
Another great video, Milo!! You put into words a lot of things I've felt about being a nonbinary person who does not fall under the categories of "transmasculine" or "transfeminine". It sucks that even within trans spaces there is this binary characterization of people, and the assumption that there is an "afab trans experience" or an "amab trans experience". When it's like, the very thing we're trying to escape is being labeled by our sex assigned at birth. Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic, I think it's something that's not talked about enough.
great video!
i remember an instance a few months ago, when i identified as a trans guy (i don't really like using labels anymore but im leaning towards agender but thats a Whole different story) where i decided to search up the "transfem" and "transmasc" terms, because i wanted to see different experiences in the spectrum i suppose.
cause at the time, even tho i like presenting more masculine i still liked feminine things lol.
and i was a bit confused when i searched them up and found only trans men in "transmasc" and only trans women in "transfem", cause at the time (and note: english ain't my first language) i thought those terms where used to describe trans people who were more leaning towards femininity/masculinity, so like i thought a trans men who presented more feminine could describe themselves as transfeminine if they desired to.
i just found it odd that you Had to label your gender with your presentation for some reason? (but ofc i don't villainize people for using those labels bc it's not my experience to talk on)
I'm bigender and AFAB and although I do wish to masculinize parts of my body and to present masculine, I just don't feel like transmasculine suits me as it ignores the female-aligned part of my gender identity. For me, transitioning is for feeling more comfortable in my body and not for going from one side of the binary to the other. I feel like the label transmasculine implies that in order to medically transition in a masculinizing way, I must have a male-aligned gender identity, but this does not describe my experience of being trans, at least not as I know it right now.
First of all, I love your outfit, you look great!
You wonderfully expressed a lot of feelings I've been having about 'transfeminine'. It does kind of work as a label for me - I'd call myself 'trans-femme' or 'non-binary woman' - but it definitely seems to make an unnecessary division at times. I have friends who would also call themselves non-binary women or 'woman light' and their genderfeels are really relatable to me regardless of their assigned-at-birth gender (and of course there's a lot of experiences I relate to across the trans and non-binary spectrum!) I'll probably keep using trans-femme for myself, but it's nice to hear someone clearly articulate some of the weirdness around using trans-masc or trans-femme as group terms. ❤️
I really learnt something from this and it shifted my perspective a bit. thank you!
you put all of my thoughts and feelings into words wow!! im so glad i came across your channel again
Holy shit, what you said about 'my body might be perceived as androgynous but as a person I am feminine'.... that lit up a lot of things for me. Through hormones I definitely feel like my body is androgynous but I've stopped trying to be a binary trans woman and am pretty damn butch now and like, you perfectly encapsulated my feels but from the opposite direction.
Yoo I remember your vids from the dark days of 2016, glad to see you doing well. Much love
Your videos always give me so much to think about! I loved this
Aw thank you!
Hey Milo! great video! I don't personally see myself as transmasc in any close capacity really, because I don't see my transness/transition fitting that definition. It's a very personal thing for me because even if I may look masculine on the outside, the term transmasc just doesn't fit how I see my own transness/who I am. I know the term transmasc is a good way to connect communities of trans people together, but I sometimes feel isolated because I don't see myself within that term. I personally see my own gender in a very neutral way (I am agender/also love the term gendervoid) and with that (for me personally) I kind of just think of myself as agender, trans, and nonbinary, while also acknowledging that I do not experience transmisogyny because I'm afab. I hope that makes sense and if there's any clarification needed please let me know.
I have always felt a little weird about the term trans masc. I think part of it is that I am binary- I'm a man, and I like to be referred to as such. I understand that the trans masc is used as an umbrella term to characterise experiences of AFAB trans people, including trans men (and those who aren't) but idk. When I was first introduced to the term it was not used as an umbrella term,, but was used as an identity (like trans man is), so even though the language changed from it being more of an identity to an umbrella term I still feel a little ehh about it. I'm not gonna be mad if I'm referred to as trans masc or anything, but I definitely don't consider myself such.
Aside from that though, I don't really think the term itself is very good tbh. 1) I don't like the focus on masculine- I feel that this is too often associated with gender expression, and so using it as a catch-all term to describe AFAB trans people would be very confusing to people unfamiliar with trans language. Maybe I'm being pedantic, but I feel trans masculine is a little too close to a masculine AFAB person....which isn't at all the same thing and could slip into misgendering pretty easily. 2) I think this association with expression makes inferences about an individual's gender expression, implying that if you are AFAB and trans you are by default masculine, which is definitely not true, so then you'd be a feminine trans masculine person? idk, to me this is unnecessarily confusing and clunky, or could be taken as a person is transitioning to be more masculine, which isn't accurate either. 3) I understand that having a way to include and differentiate between the experiences of non binary AFAB people and trans men and AMAB people and trans women, as our experiences are all different... but....don't these terms inadvertently just create another binary?!? My understanding is that people are non binary as they don't fit into the gender binary, but instead of dismantling the binary/respecting that, we've just created a more broad/encompassing binary in its place? Obviously, this doesn't apply to people who identify with the terms, but I feel that if someone were to use the term trans masc for someone else who is non binary, they'd be both assuming their AGAB and inadvertently highlighting/differentiating that? I feel it can kinda carry an implication that implies a person is 'male-lite' in some circumstances which I think is a little strange to put on someone else. (edit- you mentioned most of this in the video- this is what I get for getting too keen and starting to write before I've finished watching lmaoooo)
In saying this though, I have no solution lmao. Like AMAB/AFAB, it's better than biological sex, but it's still not perfect, but idk what to propose instead. At the end of the day language is weird and there won't ever be a general consensus, and even 'problematic' language today originated as the norm. For example, when I realised I was trans over a decade ago, FTM and MTF were used all the time, whereas now they've kinda faded away. As much as I can understand that FTM isn't an accurate term, I still prefer it to trans masc because it meant something to me all those years ago, even though I'd probably not use it if I was starting to understand my gender nowadays. Same with transsexual/transvestite. It can be easy to dismiss and demonise language from before, but I think that it's important to respect that people have history and identity with these terms, even if they are problematic/not accepted now.
Maybe in 20 years time, people will see trans masc/AFAB/whatever the same way and there will be some new term that is more inclusive/appropriate that doesn't even exist yet lol. Until then, I guess we just need to acknowledge the differences in perspectives and nuance surrounding how we describe/categorise others/the community.
p.s.: I love the shirt/earings!
Thanks for this really thoughtful comment!
I honestly really needed this video, this definitely explained better than anybody else could have the issues lots of trans people have with these terms? I have a hard time trying to explain my experience in relation to how cis people see me and because of that I tend to use AFAB to describe that? I haven’t ever used these terms on other people but it felt like the best way to describe public perception vs my own personal identity as a non-binary person who is masc leaning. Like I’m not a woman but I’m certainly seen as one by 99% of people and because of that I am treated a certain way that I want to be able to discuss, but you’re 100% right about it not being a universal term anyway. I definitely understood how these terms could be used to force trans people into certain expectations based on what other people told me, but I was really afraid of basically not being able to use these terms that seemed to be my only way to explain how I experienced cis public perception being forced on me my entire life. I’m gonna incorporate new language now that I’ve seen this and hopefully I can eventually do better! I figure maybe some of what I’ve said has to do with internalized transphobia but I still struggle I guess. Thank you for the video Milo, it was genuinely very very helpful
Love this vid! Thanks Milo :)
I think it's important to talk about the experience of being essentialled as "female" for all of us for whom it's relevant and I think it's important to talk about how those and other experiences trend differently and are unique to so called "afab" people. Not because the binary actually exists but because some of us had to/have to live in it and it effects everyone differently. For example, the trans women/transfemmes (you're right about this limiting language!) I know tend not to couch their observations with devaluing phrases like, "I think," "I guess," while a lot of "afab" people do. I think it's cause a lot of these women didn't experience the same overt, constant conditioning to question the value of their ideas or hesitate to take up space with them, which is awesome! And is not is any way to essentialize anyone by their assigned gender or undercut the validity of any trans identity in ANY way, wish I didn't have to say that. Just to reflect how we can be shaped by our experiences. I think little things like this are important to talk about for many reasons, one of them being the invisibility of my experience where it can be unique to being "afab" has left me open to harm in the community.
Would love anyone's thoughts or suggestions as to safe spaces to unpack stuff like this. Thanks!
I agree with everything you have said here, yet I feel like I have learned many new things that I wasn't aware of before, so for that I am thankful. You explained everything so well. I am very happy that this topic is getting talked about and recognized. I love what you said about how not all transition paths of people who had the same sex assigned to them at birth unfolds identically, because it's so true. I also completely agree that we shouldn't assume sex characteristics to be inherently masculine or feminine. I am someone who feels uncomfortable with the label transmasculine being put onto them as well, because I don't consider myself to be masculine, and my goal isn't to become masculine. So what you said in the video regarding it resonated a lot with me as well. I transitioned to move away from the parts that made me dysphoric, and move towards parts that make me euphoric. I did not transition away from femininity towards masculinity.
I ID as transmasc because I'm still trying to figure out what I am & I'll never REALLY see myself as just a binary man bc gender is fake, and I agree with you on this :) I couldn't put it into words but I did find it weird how transmasc and transfemme are being used as binary labels, and this has helped me realise why that felt off to me :)
I've definitely heard the discourse that afab/amab and transmasc/transfem was just Binary Two: Now With More Transgender but this was a much more nuanced take on the issue.
For me, I gravitate towards the "transmasc" label but I think that's because I'm nonbinary with a masculine lean, and don't identify with "demiboy" because it feels infantilizing. But that's personal identity, not group/community identity. Lumping all afab/amab trans people under singular labels as if they have a consistent, unified identity does end up sort of recreating the gender binary, even as it performatively "includes" nonbinary people (while also ignoring similarities between some afab and amab people's experiences!). I think people always want to try to categorize groups, especially "confusing" ones like the trans community, into easy-to-digest labels, but we're just way too complicated and diverse for these labels to have any meaningful function. The solution you gave at the end, tailoring language to whatever specific situation is being described without trying to ascribe it to a singular, consistent, external, definable group, is going to be the best way to respect that diversity rather than trying to boil it down to make it more digestible.
If demiboy feels initializing, there are also alternatives like demiguy or demiman, maybe those are more suitable for you?
there was a book written by an author from my home province here in canada, titled 'like a boy but not a boy' dealing with experiences being a non-binary parent, and includes interviews of others with adjacent experiences in this world (yes that includes me)
Woah, you’re growing facial hair!
its drawn on >
I have very light facial hair that I put mascara over! 😊
@@customfantasyhotwheels they use they/them pronouns by the way.
Very nice video! Can’t think of a lot to add since working got my brain friend but really enjoyed listening to the information.
Awesome video. Love your style. Thank you Milo!
Im very late to this video but I just gotta say, Ive had these thoughts stewing in my brain for a bit, and your video was able to exactly put into words WHY the label transmasculine bothers me in relation to my identity. So thank you a lot. Great points were made.
Thank you so much for putting these complex feelings into words. As someone who is also non-binary and presents femininely, I deeply appreciate this video
You're great, this is a great take. I relate so much. Trying to navigate to my home in the non-binary space is complicated enough without the path I'm on being dictated by the conception of gender of a doctor from 30 years ago.
Also, I've been here for ages, and may I just say once again, you are great. I always get excited when I see you've posted
Aw thank you!
You've grown so much milo. I'm glad ur so happy in ue body . You seem happier
This video definitely gave me a lot to think about. Despite being agender, as someone who was afab I feel the transmasc community is the only one with experiences I can turn to for mutual understanding or guidance but I wouldn't describe myself as masculine or feminine at all. I really hope the trans community can break out of this sort of binary they've sorted nonbinary identities into. It may be seen as inclusive but only to a certain extent.
Also with you seeing yourself as more feminine but not wanting to use transfem as a label to take away from transmisogyny makes me wonder what you think about trans people in similar positions using labels like contrafem/contramasc for this reason.
I think my relationship with the term transmasc is also pretty complicated- I really love it in some ways and I especially think it helps me to talk about some experiences I as a nonbinary person share with trans men, which I really appreciate, but I’ve also noticed the same kind of thing you were talking about at some points in the video where (especially in online spaces where people can’t see/hear me) I feel like it places an uncomfortable emphasis on my birth sex. Like when I’m talking about shared experiences with trans men it doesn’t really bother me to use a term that specifically designates me as AFAB (which in most circumstances transmasculine absolutely does) because the shared experiences we’re discussing usually relate to that in an important way, but if I’m just discussing my nonbinary identity in a broader context I don’t really want to make it easier for the people around me to recognize me as AFAB if that makes sense.
Anyways I think a lot of the points in this video are very interesting and some of them aren’t things I’ve thought about before which is cool, it’s nice to see that other people also have a kind of confusing relationship with the term transmasculine 💗🤍💙
I don't have much of a say in this discussion because I consider myself to be cis-adjacent rather than trans. Most of my non-binary identity is defined by a variation from masculine into feminine, which includes roots in my AGAB. What I am interested, though, is how we can continue to evolve language to be more inclusive of trans and non-binary identities, as I frequently ask myself "Just what does it mean to be masculine or feminine anyway"?
I find that the binary constructs of masculinity and femininity are useful reference points. By using this cultural concept, we can then consider how we relate our own gender(s) to them, and label ourselves accordingly. After all, labels aren't meant to be boxes, they're just adjectives. They are descriptive of a person's unique experiences, rather than a binding contract to any set of behaviours. AMAB people can be feminine without being trans, vice versa, and so on.
By expanding our pool of language to summarise and understand these broad concepts of gender experience, we can better find ways to highlight our position(s) on the gender spectrum :).
your earrings !!!!!!!! i love them :)))
Thank you!!
I think that transmasc and transfem are labels for people which align with either and identify as trans (as in trans+fem/masc) or at least I use them so.
An AMAB non-binary or trans woman person could definitely be transmasc as an example yeah.
AFAB and AMAB are for me terms used by people who want to express the part of their lives in childhood, more of a how someone was raised less so than "biologically defined as male/female/intersex" stuff which is probably technically wrong but for me this definition is way better as it lets me focus on the important part of one's life if they want to over the "what body were you borne with" question etc etc
I don’t see tranmasc being used to refer to AMAB people or vise verse, but I definitely think that use would make the terms more helpful, less harmful
Oh man I would absolutely love if the terms could evolve to mean that, right now in most spaces I think they imply someone’s birth sex and that can be a little uncomfortable so if more people used them in the ways you’re describing I think that would make them infinitely better descriptors
Totally unrelated but I love your outfit in this vid, so so cute 🥺
OMG your experience is like the same as mine. i am really lacking in language to use for myself. I'm AFAB, but I have to call myself transmasc because I have dysphoria? like, I don't identify with 'man' OR 'woman but consider myself a feminine trans.. dude? there's just something that bothers me about the fact that if I was born AMAB with the same gender expression, people would call me feminine, not masculine. I'm not really that masculine at all, to be honest, I just have gender dysphoria - and I hate having to call myself 'masculine' so people will accept me and use he/him for me. The word just reminds me I have dysphoria, and that I feel alienated from being trans and having major impostor syndrome because I'm not 'masc' enough.
This video was so good! I've also found in progressive spaces cis people will imply that being non-binary is its own gender with universal experiences, like dressing a certain way, liking frogs for whatever reason? It's super weird
I needed this video. Thank you so much.
I totally understand what you’re talking about. Transmasculine doesn’t really fit me. I’m nonbinary and I might be feminine presenting one day and masculine the next, some days I’ll be a mix of both or neither. I feel like transmasculine puts my gender in box because my gender is not within the binary of masculine or feminine.
Yes!! I super don't identify with the term transmasc and I honestly feel pretty uncomfortable when people try to label me that way. I remember listening to an episode of the Gender Reveal podcast a while ago and the person who was being interview was a trans man and a drag queen and they used the term transfeminine to describe themself. I remember feeling so liberated because it helped me realise that there were other options beyond transmasculine. Like I'd genuinely felt as though my options were cis or transmasc before hearing that. I'm not agender but I don't feel connected to the ideas of masculinity and femininity at all so describing myself in those terms just doesn't fit.
Thank you for this bc it put into words a weird feeling I've had. I'm genderqueer, and feel both attached and detached to femininity and masculinity, but I've been using the term transmasc for myself because I felt like I had to for other people's sake. I still feel like in some situations, I need to, but tbh I hate it. In my irl life too, I let most people think I'm a trans man or transmasc nonbinary bc I don't want to be invalidated. I don't want to be read as a cis woman. I feel like I need to identify as trans masc to be taken seriously irl. I'm hoping that as I take T and transition my appearance will change to be absolutely incomprehensible from a binary perspective, so that anyone who looks at me will know I'm trans, but not whether I was amab or afab.
You've made some very good points in the video, and I definitely agree that these labels should be for personal use rather than to encompass the entire trans experience, which is frankly useless because at the end of the day we all experience it differently.
That said, for me saying I am trans masc non binary is a way to distance myself from my agab and to describe where I'm trying to go transition-wise, both socially and (hopefully someday) medically. I know people who refer to themselves as non binary trans men/women and while that might work for them, it wouldn't work for me as I am leaning more towards a traditionally masculine expression and appearance but not quite there, and trans masculine seemed to click with me much better than any other identity I've tried on.
It's also (and I think this is quite common unfortunately) a term i use to avoid being read as a woman, which i am not. I shouldn't have to, but unfortunately more often than not it's the only way to make people understand. It's becoming less necessary the more I masculinise my expression, but it still happens.
Absolutely loved this and so much resonated with me. Out of interest, what sort of descriptor would you recommend using for a trans person who doesn’t identify as female yet experiences misogyny because they are read as female? I’ve always used AFAB for this but have been told this is transphobic. I don’t agree that it’s transphobic, partly because I’m trans, but also because I’m doing my best with the limited language we’ve got, but if there is a better descriptor I’d love to use it. Thank you!
Have you tried the phrase 'percieved as a woman' or 'read as a woman'? It isn't quite as efficient as a single word but I think it works well. It also doesn't assume all AFAB people have that experience or exclude AMAB people who are also read as women but aren't women. That's what I use when I describe my own experiences, and I find it works well because it doesn't necessarily assume my own gender identity, just how other people percieve me.
@@Lisa_Flowers thank you, great idea!
I have a hard time discribing myself with just a few words. I feel both like a man and a woman at the same time but I both look like a woman and am fine with appearing as a woman. So many people assume I'm a demigirl and it's annoying. Idk being nonbinary is confusing
maybe you could be bigender? choose whatever labels you resonate with and don't let other ppl tell you who you are based on presentation.
Or you could be genderfluid, just another idea
I use transneutral and transmasc (sometimes put together like transneumasc) because i feel like im connected to/moving towards neutrality and masculinity in my gender and presentation. Finding the label trans masculine (transneutral came after) worked for me because while i was connected to some feelings of masculinity , i wasn't a man at all, and it was a descriptor that fit me in a way that was comfortable without labeling me as a man.
Ive heard people start talking abt transmasc and transfem from this perspective and i didn't really understand but this video explained it really well and was some nice food for thought. 😊
Y not just say nonbinary
I've found that as nonbinary (mostly masculine presenting) person I've never felt welcomed in transmasculine spaces and always get the feeling they don't see me as either; not trans enough, not nonbinary enough, or they simply see a man, it's so frustrating and isolating that besides feeling I have to prove myself to cis people I also have to prove myself to other trans people. I feel invalidated by my own people just because they assume I'm AMAB which it really doesn't matter if I am or not.
The beginning is so spot on. I'm bigender which is already quite un-welcomed in some parts of the trans community, and my expieriences definitely overlap with being transmasc, but at the same time I always feel like I use 'transmasc' simply validate me being trans because I feel like being non-binary/bigender isn't "trans enough." Recently I've just called myself 'Masc-aligned' because while what I expeirence and struggle with overlaps with being transmasc, I feel like an imposter calling myself that. I want to medically transition and all, but its still a different feeling. This video helped me a lot and made me realize that I don't need to call myself transmasc to be valid!
I think in general we all need to realize that, in general, most people are NOT going to have the exact same experiences. no matter how you define something or label yourself, there are always going to be differences and its silly to hold that against others for putting themselves into a category where someone else might relate to the category but not the experience. Everyone is going to have a way that THEY feel comfortable identifying and when they put themselves in that box its usually because they ARE trying to find others that can relate but thats not saying that everyone who also puts themselves in that category (or similar categories) is going to. or that we should hold it against them for WANTING to single themselves out into a certain category of people that might relate. I think if you CAN relate to the experience but not the label, then a better thing to do instead of changing the language is just to share your experiences and relate to that person on that level instead of trying to get them to change the way they label themselves, since usually its just about how people feel comfortable identifying, etc. (Like i identify with 'nonbinary' but ive never really called myself 'trans' even though i know i guess they fall under the same umbrella now, but I'm a little older and to me, growing up being 'trans' was always a very different and more binary thing that i never related to. It wasnt until the word 'nonbinary' became a thing within this kinda millenial generation that I finally had a way of understanding myself... so i feel comfortable with THAT label but not really with the 'trans' label. in my posts i will generally tag nonbinary/agender stuff but not trans-specific related tags.
thank you ! i don't really like when people describe me as transmasculine, it feels very similar to when people une he/him pronous for me even though my pronouns are exclusively they/them.
This is a really interesting video! I disagree with the bit at the end tho with regards to labeling “transmasc” or “trans femme” spaces. I do think there is some value in having some spaces dedicated to afab trans people because historically it has been more difficult in some ways to access information with regards to transition and finding community to the point where a lot of people still don’t know we exist. I also understand wanting spaces where we don’t have to worry about hate directed at us, like how phalloplasty is often derided or how some members of the trans community are bigoted towards trans men. Implying that there are some trans femme experiences that don’t have overlap with other communities but no transmasc experiences apply that way is a bit odd, because some parts of transmisogyny can be misdirected towards afab people; the farther I get in my transition the more dangerous it becomes to present femininely because I might face homophobia or be assumed to be a trans woman. There should be less division among the community but I think we can still have specific spaces for common experiences within different parts of the community.
Interesting! I'm definitely not saying we should get rid of transmasc spaces, but I wonder if a space that is transmasc-exclusive actually solves the problems you're talking about. Like, a lot of hate towards phallo and bigotry towards trans men is also perpetrated within communities of transmasc-identified folks.
@@MiloStewart While I think there can be some value in at least some temporary spaces for people to exclusively reside in, I personally feel there should be less of a focus on exclusive spaces and more about insuring inclusive spaces. I don't wish to invalidate anyone who wants those spaces and I'm still fairly new to exploring these ideas myself so take what I say with potential ignorance in mind.
I understand that's not perfect, but I feel like exclusive spaces are the bandaid to a much bigger problem that's not being addressed.
If I say anything untoward I'm happy to learn and reflect on it and change my views. Like I said I'm still quite new to a lot of these ideas. It's crazy to think that I've been married to my wife for five years (I'm non binary who at one time suppressed myself into thinking I was a cis woman) and only now do I feel comfortable enough to really explore these ideas. I'm so thankful to have a loving and supportive spouse through all this too, but at that point I think I'm rambling lol
Misogyny isn't about femininity though- it's about female sexed people experiencing oppression as a class, and, with transwomen, gender experiences. Sex may not tell you anything about the gender identity of a person (or whether they have a gender identity at all), but it does tell you about similar physiological features which have historically been at the root of male/ female power imbalances and the perpetuation of patriarchal society. I appreciate your videos Milo and really love your honesty. I just disagree about biological sex, as it is important to acknowledge that female sexed bodies are oppressed on that basis- eg reproductive labour, domestic and sexual violence which is perpetuated overwhelmingly by male bodied people (not masculine people), and unpaid emotional and domestic labour worldwide. I feel that this is important as masculine women experience sex based oppression too- and the spectrum or category of sex is the best way to be able to talk and address sex based oppression and misogyny. That doesn't invalidate the discussion of experiences of trans-misogyny, they are just different and both need the correct language to identify and refer to them with. Though I disagree about the realities of sex and believe on the importance of organising around sex as a class, I really appreciate your openness and willingness to be real and vulnerable and have alot of respect for you overcoming the trolls 💜
I always thought it was it was for nonbinary people (or anyone really!) that specifically want to transition to masculinity or femininity and not transition to man or woman (at least that’s how I’ve been using it)! You have amazing points and I think people should be mindful that not everyone will identify the same as you even if you share things in common (like gender presentation, pronouns, etc.)
Beautifully stated! Unfortunately, I think the only way to get rid of all these uncomfortable labels and boxes is to dismantle the Patriarchal system from which it came. But due to this dogma being intertwined with societal views & monotheistic religion, coming up with neutral alternatives that pull away from, "What's between your legs..." (I'm sorry for the triggering expression, but this is ultimately what they are asking us) is probably the best way to go to sustain your own sanity, personal/mental health, and control dysphoria.
I have heard of 'transneutral', which is a label for nonbinary trans people (of any AGAB), but I don't think that's entirely accurate either. It's kind of like when cis people try to be inclusive of n-b people by asking people if they're a man, a woman, or neither - while some n-b people identify as neither, it's not accurate for *every* n-b person. I think adding transneutral to the transfeminine and transmasculine terms is just turning a binary into a 'trinary'.
The biggest reason why I often don't feel as if transmasculine describes my identity and experiences is because I don't *always* identify as masculine - in fact, my identity can sometimes be feminine in a sense. Sometimes I am comfortable with 'transneutral' but not always. Sometimes my gender identity is not neutral but feminine and/or masculine, and sometimes I don't have a gender, and saying that my gender is neutral implies that I have one.
Instead of automatically labelling trans people as transmasc or transfem (or transneutral if you're *extra woke*), people should be allowed to identify for themselves what is accurate to them.
Oh I'd never heard of transneutral before. That would very much fit me. Thanks :)
Agreed on not forcing these things on people though.
I personally call myself trans neutral as it describes me best and my transition as a Nonbinary person. I’m not trying to be masculine, I’m transitioning to be neutral (and my version of it is androgynous in terms of looking masculine and feminine at the same time but also neither)
This was a very informative video. Thank you!
I'm back to compliment your cute earrings! Excited for another video to get me thinking too.
Yay! Thank you!
This all makes sense. Thank you!
I say I’m trans masc but it’s bc im more masc leaning (im genderfluid) but i wouldn’t describe my nonbinary friend as trans fem bc they don’t lean to one way or another even though they could experience trans misogyny
What I’m saying is that it the labels describe the way someone may lean but it’s not for everyone! Love ur vids
9:42 well yeah and because those doctors based their decision on genitals, it tells you about a person's approximate genitals at birth (phallo-meter style). Which is not majorly helpful information. But yeah no it tells you nothing about chromosomes, hormones, gonads etc. That is true.
i have so many mixed feelings related to the term transmasc tbh, i hate that it centers gender presentation rather than gender identity and just,,,, idk i dont vibe with it. so thanks for this video :') i like to see other people who also have opinions on this topic
I think trans masc and trans fem implies that you have to present masc or fem which is not the case for many even if their gender is more masc or fem. It's again putting ppl into binaries and excluding many trans experiences from the conversation.
Totally!
big mood!! i am nonbinary (agender in particular) and just because i am an AFAB person whose is trans doesn't mean I'm transmasc
You mentioned how bio sex is seen as important in western medicine. Do you have any sources that speak of how it’s looked at in other cultures and other types of medicine?? Because that’s something I would love to read on but I can’t find many online 😭
I'm reading Decolonizing Trans/gender 101 by B/ Binaohan rn and I can't say if it covers that exact topic, but I feel like it might! That's definitely going to be a source for others videos
@@MiloStewart Awesome, thank you! I’ll check it out, it sounds good
I definitely remember a brief period on Tumblr when it was dmab and dfab so maybe it evolved from "designated ____ at birth"
im transmasc, and i really enjoy the label because i'm nonbinary but i also identify as a man, so i feel that the term transmasc reflects both. i do think that people who dont experience tranmisogyny can have common experiences when it comes to discrimination because anyone who isnt a transwoman who identifies as transgender, gnc, nonbinary, etc, often deals with erasure and infantalization, and instead of being viewed as a predator is often viewed as a victim, as someone who has been deceived and (where applicable) has had their womanhood taken by the "trans cult". i dont know the best way to talk about that dichotomy without using transmasc/transfem terms but i do get what you are saying about how it basically recreates an artificial binary referring to all trans people with those terms, or referring to the experience of being erased and infantalized in that way as a transmasculine experience.
Im born "afab", I'm considered trans masc
if I was born "amab", and I expressed my gender in the same way I do now, I'd be considered trans feminine
the only reason I'm considered "trans masculine" is because I'm not as feminine as I'm supposed to be
if I was born expected to be masculine, I'd be labeled trans feminine, because I still would not live up to the worlds expectations of "men" and "masculinity"
I don't like these labels to describe me as a person or my personality, because, in my opinion, they are based more on my anatomy than who I actually am, which I don't like.
talking about my struggles as a "trans masculine" person, as someone who, for example needs access to birth control, health care, etc, but might be more at risk due to my trans status, I'm okay with that because that is a specific situation that DOES apply to my anatomy
but more and more frequently I'm meeting people who equate "trans masculine" (an anatomical term, to me) with "Masculine (man or man adjacent)". or also awful: "One Of The Girls (Butch)"
This is... uncomfortable for me. In general, I get a few red flags when people talk about "trans masc" and "trans fem" often in social terms rather than anatomical. trans masc and trans feminine, I feel, could be helpful in situations where anatomy and social issues are being discussed, but I agree it is an overused terms that seems to be forcing another binary on people who don't want it
i love this !! thank u so much
I'm kind of new to my trans journey. I'd suspected I'm nonbinary for years but only this year did insert using he they pronouns and really identifying as trans nonbinary (which feels late cause I'm in my 20s & my little bro has always known he's trans). Anyway, I appreciated your vid cause i always feel like in order to really be trans I need to be transmasc and get top surgery. And I know your vvid wasn't about race but as a no white trans person it's always a red flag for me when white trans people havec no friends of color, cis or trans
15:55 "People who experience transmisogyny" something i've seen proposed is tma/tme for transmisogyny affected / transmisogyny excluded. It's not perfect because many tme people are somewhat affected by transmisogyny, but it does highlight the categorical difference of being the target, or simply caught in the splashfire.
I love this explanation!
I use the term Cenitidal(for a folk like me who is a labelfree-zero-label-unlabeled self-sex-gender-assigned-at-birth androgynous teresex xencat agender-abinary/ad-non-binary/trans-a-non-binary afro-indigenous person,in my culture sex-traits and genders are described as natural things like : ''you're gracefull as the wind or you're are unstable like tides'',so I liked the term because isn't related to eurocentrist socially constructed terms like masculinity or femininity,etc,it's a gender neutral term ! ).
This is completely unrelated to the discussion, but where did you get your shirt? It’s really cute!
It’s from ThredUP but I don’t know the original brand
@@MiloStewart thank you!
wow i never really thought about the terms transmasc and transfem like that
I was afab and I kind of identify with transmasc. But that is mostly because I'm a nonbinary lesbian and nonbinary lesbians are often seen as women-lite🤢
I also sometimes feel like I can't use transmasc for me because I'm not currently medically transitioning and I don't know if I ever can because of the very binary few of trans people in my country. But that is my own internalized transphobia I have to work through.
I see very often that terms describing trans people start out with many trans people identifying in that way and having fun with them until cis people find them. Then cis people use them in a way to group in trans people in a way that makes them comfortable. I just see cis people (and some trans people) describing trans people in ways they wouldn't describe themselves, mostly to push them into a binary.
I feel so trapped between transmasculine communities and transfemme communities sometimes when there is disagreements between the two.
It feels like that one john mulaney bit where he is going "Okay! OKAY! Okay ! Okay!" Trying to keep people calm.
Like I was afab, but possibly corrosively due to the as of yet undefined intersex condition, and growing up as a fat autistic kid, my experiences of isolation from my female peers matches a lot closer to transfemme experiences.
But I also was viewed as hannah gadsby puts it "incorrectly female", and pressured to perform femininity alot.
Like I get really heated when people insist that dude is gender neutral, bc it used to give me dysphoria when I was younger.
But I also get really pissed when people continously think that transwomen are the ones mainly wanting access to the kind of care in women's centers.
I'm nonbinary and I'm interested in packing and possibly phalloplasty. When I try looking for videos and resources about it I tend to get ones that group me as a trans man and it can feel uncomfortable and makes me feel like I'm experiencing a dysphoria that doesn't belong to me. It's really discouraging sometimes. I used to identify as transmasculine but now I'm starting to question if I'm actually transneutral. I like transexual too.
what if someone uses they them but wants top surgery does that mean they could be trans ?
I find it helpful to use the terms trans neutral or trans nonbinary in place of trans fem or trans masc for myself.
I’m AMAB, nonbinary and trans. I don’t like saying transmasc because my gender identity is squarely in the middle, or I guess equally masc and feminine. Even though I want top surgery and getting on t, I’ve never liked using transmasc to describe myself. Not sure why, but I think it’s because it doesn’t capture my inbetweenness.
Just wanted to say your shirt is really neat :D
Thanks!!
I personally like using the label transmasc for myself, but forcing others to use the label isn't cool. Labels should be something for personal use/comfort, NOT for others to put onto you/to put you into a box. I'm sorry for everyone who has pushed labels on you/others. Thank you for your insight Milo!