I don't care what it takes but keep rolling these videos, and don't go behind chasing the algorithm these long format deep dive videos are simply amazing and are seen to be nowhere soo this channel is like a heavenly source of raw data...
Thoroughly professional research & presentation, much appreciated. Keep us armchair technologists up to date. Knowledge is good antidote to fear, FUD & superstition.
Very informative! The helicopter I worked in in the army had magnesium in it and we had a special class just about it… the item was covered in differing colored paint layers, so you could see how warm thru the layers you were and after so many layers, you knew it had to be removed and checked. Sounds like these new alloys would eliminate those layers or lessen them.
Magnesium is good Lightweight metal , IMPOSSIBLE to repair and Difficult to Recycle @ end of LIFE. AL is even Lighter , its Possible to repair Gigacastings as TESLA has already shown us (TESLA Asia). AL Gigacastings are easy to Recycle , just shred and melt down, use again. the Cybertruck 3mm Stainless Steel is extremely Durable , does not RUST , chip, dent or scratch. its Bullet proof to .45 Tommy gun (Full Drum) , 9mm FMJ, Shotgun, and other small arms. can be Wrapped or Mirror polished. very Easy to repair.
@@rubenayla I don't think it's hard to recycle, other than the obvious safety concerns you have to take when melting it. I think the market for recycling Mg just isn't there because there isn't the Mg scrap out there. My local metal recycling company won't take Mg. But I can sneak it in with the Al.😉
Personally I would be curious if magnasium from seawater would be more efficient if it used the brine wastewater from water distillation. I'm always looking for a way to combine resource extraction to use the "waste" of one product as feedstock for another.
@@bernhardleopold6702 Frankly I would love it if we could use the brine from ocean desalination to feed mineral extraction instead of digging more mines on land. I'd also like to see mine tailings used as feed stock for other materials. Often mines have multiple minerals, but only one is actively extracted.
@@NickGobin i have no idea how to extract uranium, but depending on the process it could be potentially economical if it was combined with extraction of various other elements. But likely the chemistries involved would make this not workout how I am imagining.
The material will always be aluminum for Tesla until magnesium expands its capabilities. The aluminum used in the giga casting is designed to be able to be laser welded to aluminum sheetmetal, ultra sonically welded, tig welded, or using recycled scrap cutoff aluminum from the Stamping’s process. Your points about magnesium are all correct and notable but magnesium Stamping’s crack and break easily and welding it is risky. The giga press material is designed to have very similar nickel and titanium alloys so material bonding and recycling of scrap can be factored into the whole process. I appreciate that they didn’t just try to match a material to a part, or engendering problem without factoring in the larger process and the environmental impact of the product. I can’t think of another company that does this on such a broad spectrum.
@@thelimitingfactor being able to weld stamped sheetmetal panels directly to the casting out weighs the benefits of thixomolded and forged magnesium. Casting allows for part reduction and labor reduction, but welding parts together allows for simpler molds and more features. When you look at the parts impact on the factory’s impact as well as the additional problems you incurred (or don’t know you will create) against the material cost savings on a larger scale it becomes clear. KIS (keep it simple) is what is killing the automotive industry by not following. Monroe blasts them for this. Or, to put it another way, if Tesla could giga cast the whole car, they would still cover it in stamped parts and still weld on brackets and details that are too small to flow. Die cast parts take way to much time and labor to finish. It’s actually cheaper to attach a stamped part that doesn’t need finishing than a perfect Diecasting. The finish is the voice of the value of the object. The simplicity is the ugly bones and heart which are necessary and concealed. If you can make magnesium look pretty, I’ll change my argument.
This comment is based on skimming one recent survey paper titled _Solid-State Welding of Aluminum to Magnesium Alloys: A Review._ Any errors in this comment were probably introduced by me, and likely aren't in the original article be H. Chen and collaborators. It takes special techniques to make a strong weld between an aluminum alloy and a magnesium alloy. In this case "special" doesn't always mean expensive. With pure metals, when molten aluminum mixes with molten magnesium, they produce some very brittle _Inter Metallic Compounds_ or IMC. Although, just as this video mentioned that a little calcium in an alloy can dramatically reduce flammability, other additives can interfere with the production of those IMC. Various flavors of solid phase welding also avoid forming the dreaded IMC. My inner twelve year old, was particularly amused when I learned that you can weld two metals simply by slamming them together really fast, using explosives or huge magnetic fields. Although ultrasonic welding does seem like it would take up much less space on the factory floor.
@@thelimitingfactor the three main options for getting aluminum to fuse are tig, ultrasonic, and laser. Tesla isn’t the only one doing this. BMW uses ultrasonic wire bonding instead of solder. Laser can fuse copper, brass and aluminum and can weld under water eliminating the warping and heat issues as well as tig. You can also spot weld aluminum if you put steel plates between the electrodes to localize the heat source. I learned about all this by working directly with the people that fabricate the products you see everywhere. The rest of the world has been doing this kind of welding for quite a while. You really should go go to the factory to see what they are doing. Cyber truck will likely glue the stainless to the stamped and cast parts and I bet there are hundreds of other different bonding techniques in a single vehicle. All of which are reviewed and evaluated for the best combination of labor, speed, and reliability. I’m continually amazed at how much there is to learn about making and fabricating things. There is a massive amount of work that goes into making something simple. You have to weed through all this to find the right combination to achieve simplicity.
Great video! LFP batteries are great to mention too! As they don't contain any cobalt, which is what provides the oxygen that enables the fires to sustain themselves in the flrst place. They are in about 1/3rd of all new EVs, including all standard-range Teslas.
Thixo/rheo-cast metal is so awesome. First you start with an alloy that transitions from liquid to solid over a range of temperatures, so neither pure nor eutectic. as you cool it to a temperature in the middle of it's melting range so that there is some solid and some liquid, you agitate it to break up the solid grains that are forming so they can't interlock. done right, you basically end up with a liquid metal full of dust of the same metal. The biggest advantage of semi-solid metal, and what makes it almost as good as forged parts, is that when you fully solidify it, you get a crystal grain around every one of those "dust" particles. That gives you a very similar structure to when you heat-treat forged parts, and therefore very similar properties. Thixo-casting is also less prone to cracking as it solidifies so you can cast thinner walls than with traditional casting. Thixo-forming, which is the word he used, generally refers to starting with metal that already has the right crystal structure and partially melting it before forming it. Rheo-casting is when you start with molten metal and agitate it as it cools before pouring it straight into the mold. Rheo-casting is gaining traction with lots of different metals because it's relatively easy to retrofit and gives much higher quality parts as long as they're not too big. From what I know, Chip-casting is specific to magnesium and refers to semisolid casting using a reciprocating screw (as pictured in the video) like in plastic injection molding with magnesium chips as the feedstock. I don't know exactly how it works, but I think it requires the low melting point and low enthalpy of melting of magnesium to work or we would do it with other metals.
Wait - what is a reciprocating screw? That seems like the material would go... nowhere? Or is it just used to achieve the agitation as it cools for rheo-casting?
@@NickGobin It's a cool device invented for thermoplastic injection molding. The screw part is that the main body is basically an auger that pushes material towards the front and melts and mixes the plastic by sheering it between the auger and the outside wall (basically friction). The reciprocating part is that the screw can also move back to make a chamber in front which it fills up with a "shot" of material, then push forward to inject that "shot" into the mold. It was revolutionary for injection molding because it keeps the plastic at a much more uniform and consistent temperature with a smaller machine than what came before.
In the 1970's I once witnessed a Porsche 914 on fire. In those days, German cars were known for catching fire. It was an ordinary fire for a while. I remember the driver freaking out massively as he watched his car burn. When the magnesium aluminum alloy crankcase finally got hot enough to ignite, it was pretty spectacular. Magnesium doesn't make a car more likely to burn, but if it does manage to catch fire, things will be a lot more interesting.
Magnesium has a lot of potential. Although compared to high performance aluminum alloys, that are surprising cheap due to scale, Magnesium alloys have much worse specific strength. The big advantage when my company was doing trade studies on magnesium is that it has much better relative stiffness (stiffness of comparable weight parts with optimized geometry) compared to aluminum. The strength to stiffness design balance for a car can be difficult. For mass produced low cost vehicles often times manufacturers are fine with a less stiff car, that handles worse and has slightly worse efficiency, so long as it has the strength and factor of safety to reasonable be on the road. Sometimes the lower stiffness can help for crash absorption as well. I know Tesla is using a custom aluminum alloy that doesn't require heat treating and is easy to cast. As far as I know there aren't any online details about that specific alloy's strength, but it could potentially have comparable strength to the magnesium alloys you discussed depending on how the Tesla engineers made the aluminum blend. I'm not sure if the magnesium alloys you mentioned require heat treatment or not, but I know that would definitely be a no-go for Tesla.
Nice, I look forward to the next parts of the series. I've studied PEO processes for structural magnesium parts as a university assignment just 3 years ago. At that time magnesium was still considered to expensive for most products outside of sports equipments, prostheses and other relatively niche products alike. Will be fun to see wether or not magnesium parts will become mainstream automotive parts.
@@iandavies4853Something I learned long ago helps me remember the difference in spelling: "It's not well known whether or not the weather caused the shepherd to depend on his bellwether to lead the flock in the fog." Trained wethers (castrated goats, sheep) with a bell on it's neck were used to lead the sheep and these were called a "bellwether".
@@user-vp1sc7tt4m that spelling gets me too - despite inflicting this change on many sheep. I won’t mention what the Chinese / Italians used to do, just to keep soprano or get a job in harem.
Wellgo has been making magnesium bicycle pedals for 15+ years. The weight-to-strength ratio is just great! Also having cool sparks when you hit something with it is a bonus :D
Thanks, Jordan. Looking forward to the next videos on this topic. I have a small business card printing die, made from Magnesium alloy. It's tough and fairly resistant to corrosion, despite it being an older alloy. The block had been used to print more than 1,000 business cards, and showed no real signs of wear. I tried igniting a piece of another die over a gas flame years ago and can confirm that it's a very good heat conductor which is surprisingly difficult to ignite by that method. That sample melted without igniting.
Bro I can't wait until I afford to give you money. Your analysis is a fucking public service it's like being on the receiving end of a Killer Instinct combo of useful information.
I second that! You bring some awesome sauce to top of the meat n potatoes with Jordan. 👍🏻😎 Wish I could spare some spice to kick your way and help keep it flowing. Damn economy. 😑
Nice one! My first reaction was: "Yeah, combine magnesium with Lithium Ion batteries, prone to burning like thermite!🙈", but if it can be alloyed in a way that prevents that bright white flame, then perhaps it has a potential anyway. 😄
Aluminum’s head start over magnesium reminds me of how they got vacuum tubes working before transistors. Once vaccuum tubes worked, the impetus for making transistors work weakened quite a bit. But they did eventually make transistors work and they literally changed everything. And will doing that for decades to come.
Once I had a small Puch/AT motorbike where I remember the gearbox was made of Magnesium. Also the rims. The Volkswagen Beetle had 30kg Magnesium in the Gearbox.
In my spare time, I rebuild VW Beetle gearboxes. The entire completed gearbox weighs 30kg, and most of that is steel. I would estimate the Mg castings for the trans weigh less than 10kg in total.
@@e-curb Should we investigate further, as both of us say its 30kg. But you say its steel where what I found its said its Magnesium? A magnet should tell us.
@@klauszinser There's no need to test anything. I'm actively working on them. It could be that the reference you found meant 30kg in the whole car. The engine case is Mg, and it weighs more than the trans case.
The "torch on magnesium" is interesting. Note that many B-29s were lost during WW II due to inflight fires, caused by burning crankcases (made from magnesium)
A few notes here: First, as I pointed out, alloys now are better. WWII was the dawn of magnesium. Second, your car won't be taking anti-aircraft fire. Third, you can stop your car and get out of it if it starts on fire. The burning plastic, batteries, and/or oil and gas will kill you long before the magnesium ignites.
@@thelimitingfactor If the car is an EV and the battery catches fire spontaneously, you can say goodbye to the rest of the car too now. Lots of fun for the fire department that has to deal with it.
@@aftonline Well to be fair, if an ICE car catches on fire it's going to be scrapped too. Gas fires and battery fires are both catastrophic, but battery fires take longer (and different methods) to put out.
Correct, @@tysonn4736. I watched our local fire brigade trying to extinguish a gasoline-fuelled car fire on our street, about an decade ago. Long story short, they dowsed the surrounding property's fences and the road surface with water, and essentially let most of the car burn itself out, before starting to tackle the fire itself. It's rare that a road vehicle can be saved from an established fire, whatever material it is made from or whatever power source it uses.
@@thelimitingfactor To nitpick, a lot of those B-29 fires were because the engines overheated. But that was kind of a problem that doesn't really generalize to cars, with tightly cowled (to minimize drag) four row air cooled radial engines putting out thousands of hp. All rushed into production as there was a major war going on.
OK, so I was very suprised to know that Mg is so very dense in seawater. Therefore, where there are desalinations plants (with their asociated brine disposal issues) there is already a place to pull Mg and spread the cost across two goals. This also will help reduce the brine density volume at the end of the combined process.
Considering the fact that there is 1.3g of Mg in seawater on average means that even if we used 100 million tonnes of it per year, all from seawater, we'd be set forever (17.4 billion years).
Magnesium has an elastic modulus of 45 GPa vs 70 GPa for aluminium. Also thixotropic casting is much slower than die casting which significantly increases the cost, particular for larger castings. Adding another metal to a structure adds additional galvanic corrosion problems. The aluminum Gigacasting does result in a manufacturing advantage that may not be available for magnesium.
I've watched side by side comparisons of thixomolding and regular high pressure diecasting and the thixo was faster. Thixomolding is only slightly more expensive, but you get a much higher quality product. But if magnesium gets cheaper than aluminum, that changes. Galvanic corrosion isn't a problem. People said the same thing about Tesla using aluminum but it was simply a matter of joining the metals.
Thixotropic casting requires higher injection pressures and has lower injection speeds than die casting. This is because the metal is in a semi solid state for thixotropic casting while it is in a liquid state for die casting. Thixotropic casting can have an advantage over die casting because it tends to allow a wider range of alloys options as well as giving some additional heat treatment options.
I went out shooting practice once with some friends. One of the guys set a magnesium wheel rim out amongst the targets. It was memorable for several reasons. One of my friends handed me his 4570 falling block heavy barrel. I fell in love. I just couldn't miss. The amusing thing, was watching the sparks fly from that mag rim... shortly after I pulled the trigger... and even longer to hear the "ding".
More flammable fun for me! Air cooled VW blocks were great fun to toss in camp fires (NOT near anything you care about burning). Repair of automotive magnesium castings is more difficult but repair is no longer a consideration by OEMs other than by replacing parts. If a large casting is damaged the vehicle can be written off as that's what insurance is for. (If you've a new vehicle that's damaged you're better off not getting that one back anyway and buying a replacement with your payout.)
Even if they use only a small amount, Apple's impact on the production of Aluminum was significant because it promoted cooperation among production giants. This anecdote is important because it illustrates a key point: Aluminum can not only be cast but also machined. Steel is a good example of a material that can be worked in many ways, casting, sand casting, machining, laser cutting, forged, etc. Aluminum and steel have a diverse ecosystem around them, with soldering tutorials and techniques, glues (mostly for Al) a wide variety of alloys, etc. Finally, there is the issue of fine characterization of the degrading of parts, like fatigue under stress and/or thermal loads. I see a future for Magnesium but it will take a while if we want to do it responsibly.
Based on data on your site one can conclude that thixomolded magnesiun would be great material for fishing reel frames providing it is coated to protect frame from salt.
Magnesium is a light and strong material that has been used in the manufacturing of bicycle frames and many other items in the past. However, it was eventually phased out in many areas due to several important reasons. First, magnesium is an extremely reactive metal that can corrode and degrade quickly when exposed to moisture, salt, and other environmental factors. This made it a less durable and reliable option for items such as bike frames compared to other materials such as aluminium and carbon fibre. Second, magnesium is also relatively expensive to produce and machine, which made it more costly for manufacturers and less appealing to consumers. Finally, other materials such as aluminium and carbon fibre have continued to improve in strength and durability, making them more viable options for bike frames and other uses. As a result, magnesium is now rarely used in mass production of these types of products. Alloys of Magnesium as being discussed here offer some hope of a renaissance, but it may turn into another false dawn as other material sciences advance.
No need to get personal, my comment was not a criticism of you or any of your facts. Surely you should be able to take some contrasting comments@@thelimitingfactor
@@mrpaul5726 Bad attitude? Super sensitive? Attacking...? Your response resembles magnesium... "extremely reactive". lolz Can we just focus on your point, "Alloys of Magnesium as being discussed here offer some hope of a renaissance" and encourage the content creator to continue providing the YT community with quality content?
@@mrpaul5726 You need to calm down. TLF's reply was reasonable as he DID review the issue you bring up early in the video. Your "bad" should be self-directed.
Thanks for your video. Looking forward to viewing the entire series. Erik Buell's next entry into the motorcycle market, the all electric Fuell Fllow, is going to have a magnesium monocoque.
Magenium is something like 8th most common element. China dominate because they co-locate with coal burning power plants and get heat for free. I do see it having a presence but not to the point where you think they will go. Obvious low hanging fruit is knocking about 2 or 3 kg off each corner of a car by going to magneium alloy wheels which are milled/forged. It is either going to be that or going to milled/forged aluminium or else to plastic compounds from BASF and others as carbon fibre wheels are too expensive for mass market. After that the unsprung weight can move over to Magnesium in part. Magnesium is not fireproof so it won't be in battery enclosures. Performance cars needed lightness and the customer would pay. For mass market it will have to be lightness but profitable lightness. I don't see Magnesium going in to the chassis in great quantity as if it touches off aluminium castings elsewhere you have galvanic issues.
The cost/unit strength slide really tells the tale here. Aluminium and Magnesium just are not good solutions unless the logistics and assembly considerations are providing the cost effectiveness. Steel is clearly the way to go to get weight savings in a cost per unit strength sense so it would be interesting to understand why it is being ignored for EV's. I can vaguely understand some of the benefits of these mega castings in terms of simplification/reduction in part count and potentail load path optimisation factors but that totally ignores the impact of weight, particularly in the EV sector. What am I missing here because Magnesium and Aluminium just do not add up for the end users and the planet.
During viet nam airborne had a minature jeep and a go cart type all terrain , both were magnesium Both for light weight but also destroyed with an incinerator genade But no special handling day to day
The burning lithium creates a metal fire existing at temperatures of 2,000 degrees Celsius/3632 degrees Fahrenheit. Attempting to douse the fire with water is inadvisable since this could lead to a hydrogen gas explosion! I guess we will see if that will light off magnesium alloy ? We use to burn holes in concrete with magnesium shavings . Glad they figured how to prevent it catching fire !
Even if they didn't solve it, it's still not a problem for commercialization. It's no threat to passengers, because whether you'll be out of the vehicle by the time it ignites, and if you aren't, you'll be baked by the plastics in the car first. As for the firefighters, they have training, suits, and they've been dealing with this for 100 years. Millions of cars use/have use magnesium.
magnesium can be a byproduct of lithium brines. when i read sf as a kid it was generally assumed spaceships would be built from an aluminum-titanium-magnesium alloy, perhaps mined from the moon.
Corvettes used to come from the factory with magnesium valve covers, 1984 to around 1993 I believe then they went to composite valve covers until 1996.
I coat magnesium often, but the pitting from pre existing corrosion takes a lot of work to straighten out. I skin the part with high temp jb weld. Then I sand the crap out of it. Off gas, blow down, reheat, then hot flock
About the flammability of materials in cars: we once set a car on fire for training at our fire department. We lit one of the headrests, which caused the fabric under the roof to ignite. In no time at all the fabric came down and the whole interior was set on fire. The passenger compartment burned out completely, although we started to put it out immediately.
I wonder how PEEK & PEKK polymers compares?? "Compared to metals such as aluminum and steel, PEEK has greater tensile strength and can withstand prolonged exposure to high temperatures, harsh chemicals, and moisture. PEEK is also considerably lighter than steel or aluminum but does not sacrifice strength in any way."
@@thelimitingfactormy understanding is there's a lot of Peek now being used in aviation, aerospace etc. Lots of 3d printing startups using it etc. And there are other high performance polymers too like Ultem. Would be a fascinating to see a video on the potential for these in vehicle manufacturing.
Great video Jordan! Looking forward to the series. As a fire protection engineer, I winced a bit when you said "thermal runaway" at 5:16 - that's a term for batteries and is not correct to use on a chemical fire. Also, I would say your background in batteries is biasing how you look at magnesium. The issue with magnesium has never been spontaneous combustion (or increasing the risk of a fire), which is one of the main discussion points on lithium ion. So "addressing" that concern is irrelevant. The issue has always been increasing the consequence of a fire. And a test with a torch to one portion of a magnesium block or casting is not comparable to a vehicle fire - the torch test allows the block to conduct the heat away, whereas a vehicle fire that is surrounded by flames for an hour can raise the whole part's temperature high enough to burn, even with alloys that raise the ignition temp by 100C. The ignition temp isn't relevant for evacuation since the vehicle occupants will be long-gone as you point out, but we do tend to parks cars indoors in parking garages and in our houses that raises the stakes if it ever does get going. Anyways, I don't mean to nitpick or criticize - overall a great video and I actually agree with your conclusion that magnesium has a bright future (no pun intended!). We Just have to make sure we're countering the factual arguments as we advance magnesium technology and adoption!
Thanks Nick! 1) Understandable. Fair point on terminology. 2) You and I understand that, but a lot of people seriously believe that magnesium is a spontaneous combustion risk. So I had to address it. 3) Same on this one. Yes, I realize the blowtorch is not comparable to a vehicle fire, but the reasoning here is the same as #2. Some people are concerned about magnesium's flammability, but by the time the magnesium would ignite, they'd be dead from everything else that would already be burning. But, you acknowledged that in your comment so we're in a agreement on the reality of it - again, scripting choice to address all the B.S. out there. 4) I agree, it does matter in specific situations. That's why the FAA has stricter criteria than a vehicle does. But, to cover all the angles would be another video. 4) Not taken as nitpicking 😉. But I do need to respond because you have credentials. People will notice that and may wonder why I made the narrative choices that I did. So, no disagreement on your points, but context was required.
Magnesium accident I am aware of: One person sands a magnesium part on a floor mounted belt sander in a lab. The next user sands steel and the residual magnesium in the belt goes on fire and burns the second user. This occurred at least 40 years ago at the Materials Lab in the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
The tiny amount of Mg caught in the belt won't do anything. What probably happened is that there was a lot of Mg dust on the floor around the belt sander, then as soon as the sparks from the steel grinding hit the Mg, Poof, it explodes.
VW used Magnesium alloy for their engine and transmission case,. I have seen these vehicles burn very energetically, water was ineffective in extinguishing and actually accelerated combusfion.
Yup, and lots of modern day cars use a lot of magnesium still (cross car beams, etc). But, you don't hear about it anymore because magnesium fires are pretty routine.
@@thelimitingfactor thanks 🙏 From the name alone Elon should buy them and user their IP like from Maxwell, Hibar and Grohmann 👍 Someone should tell him 😅
Magnesium machines quite well, and part of the reason of using it is it requires less because you can make more detailed parts. Beyond that, it diffuses heat rapidly so I'm not sure what you're on about.
@@thelimitingfactor He's correct to a degree - I'm a machinist, and made magnesium parts for spacecraft long ago. I did have one fire, but mitigation by ensuring good practices (sharp tools (low friction), limiting chip volumes and isolation in steel storage barrels) made the overall process pretty safe. This was with older Mg alloys, newer ones are more stable and less likely to combust, as shown in the video. Near-net castings mean less machining for the completed part.
I've seen a lot about automakers using large castings for EVs but so far I haven't seen anyone talking about using them in ICE cars. Is there a reason?
we will be using carbon-carbon and graphene before we use something as expensive and limited as magnesium like you suggest... but these metals will likely end up being used with these carbon materiels.. nearly all parts can now be made easily out of forged carbon - graphene fiber alloys
Magnesium is one of the most common elements. The only reason it's limited is because there hasn't been a forcing function to scale it. Carbon is more common, but carbon also requires complex manufacturing processes to turn it into a high strength material. Magnesium is magnesium and can be cast. Casting is about the fastest and cheapest way to manufacture something.
Extracting Magnesium from Seawater is like extracting Sodium from Seawater, because both are combined with Cloride to make the plentiful salt in seawater so I am not the least surprized that this has been done profitably.
Imagine a car with Magnesium frame and Sodium-Sulfur battey packs, you could be looking at half the vehicles mass being derived from SeaWater, wild. Now just figure out how to make the apolstry from Kelp.
Nah, we would have to increase our consumption by 100,000x for it to have an even a small percentage impact in the course of our lives. There's quadrillions of tonnes of magnesium in the ocean.
I ride electric unicycles and one of the constraints is weight so the manufacturers are starting to use magnesium alloy wherever possible and feasible.
@@thelimitingfactor from an engineering perspective I agree. But insurance lobbies, and governments with agendas are known to disregard facts to pursue interests. Respectfully. 👍
Yes and no. Depends on the concentration and the value of the metal. It can be done for every metal, but it has to be commercially viable is probably the best way to put it
Tesla used magnesium for the original Model S structural front carrier/radiator support. I thought it was a terrible idea, as it was highly susceptible to corrosion and very difficult/costly to replace. Mine was replaced (fortunately under warranty) twice, when I pointed out how badly it was corroding. They obviously abandoned magnesium and went to a polymer construction in/around 2014.
You didn't discuss fatigue properties. Yes, the poor fatigue props could be due to casting porosity, but Magnesium alloys themselves, do have lower fatigue properties due to its reduced atomic weight and density. Generally fatigue strength is proportional to Ultimate Tensile Strength, which is lower in Magnesium compared to Aluminium.
I do make a point in the video series that carbon fiber is increasingly competitive, but I also say that it's for different parts. But, I'd have to do a deep dive on carbon fiber too
I'd be curious if both Magnesium and Lithium can be extracted from sea water as part of the same process. And maybe sourcing from the brine waste stream of a desalinization plant.
Great video as usual! Just a suggestion, when listening with a home theater audio system there is a lot of puffing on the microphone happening through my subwoofer, you might want to get one of those screens in front of your mic if you don't have one already :)
There already is a screen in front of it. I can either back up from the mic and reduce the quality of the overall sound, or speak closely and have it impact subwoofers for the 1% of people who listen to it with subwoofers. That is, it was a deliberate choice. Bear in mind that I spent an hour cleaning up the plosives. So it is something I tried to reduce, but it's just how it goes. Unless somebody wants to volunteer to clean all of them up? 😁
@@thelimitingfactor hey no worries, it's not that bad, I just thought I'd let you know :) it's definitely higher quality than most videos. Curious, is your pop filter far enough back from your mic to work effectively?
Move the mike to the side of your mouth and not directly centered in front of you. Point the mic at your mouth. Don't point your mouth at the mic. You don't have to "talk into" the mic for it to hear you. If you hold your hands in front of your face and say "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers" you will feel puffs of air straight in front of your mouth and slightly down. Don't put the mic there. Put it to one side where there is no air puffing. This also looks better on camera because the mic isn't blocking your face. You can still be close to the mic so proximity effect boosts your bass. Be sure to aim the mic at your mouth. Don't think bad audio is OK because most people don't have subwoofers. You can have good audio. You don't need a blast screen in front of the mic if you just position it correctly. I've been doing audio for over 50 years. Try this.
@@jackwickman2403 I often find that when people do things that long they get arrogant and presumptious. There's only one place I have to record audio. If I move the microphone off centre then it creates terrible echo and acoustics. That's because I'm recording in front of a 3 foot wide curved screen. Yes, I could change the set up, but I have other priorities at the moment. As for the rest, I learned it in the first day of recording. You're not dishing out insider knowledge here, it's all available on YT. But, if you think you can do my job better - I welcome it. I've long encouraged other people to replicate what I do with this channel.
Most of the Magnesium will go to bikes seeing how more and more people are done with the insane traffic in the city everyday. A lot of the people commuting by bikes will still buy cars but a lot more people will save that money since 99% of their time is spent in the city.
This video didn't explain away the concerns. It presented potential mitigations as bulletproof points. For example, stamped parts will have less thermally conductive geometry than a cylindrical ingot, that test is not a complete solution to the concern.
It doesn't have to be. It only needs to be commercially viable. There is no wonder material. If you find it, let us all know and make yourself a trillionaire.
Sounds like a feathwr mechant to me. I have seen aircraft damage due to fire involving magnesium, and it can't be put out. Also recognizing corosion is a problem. Inner granular corrosion can hardly be known until failure is imminent.
I did watch it Mr limited. But I also happen to spend my entire work in aviation, repair, manyfactruing, and test. I know what you are saying is half true, but the other half is wish. @@thelimitingfactor
It seems we get a lot of press about light weighting vehicles and you see a lot of parts that have been made lighter that are being incorporated into production vehicles. Unfortunately, overall vehicle weights are just going up, so obviously there is just not the return on making things lighter. It's a pity, as I'm not interested in cars over 2,500lb. I would prefer we skip all the batteries and just drive light weight, nimble vehicles. It's just more fun!
The heat dissipation is keeping it from igniting. ......wrong The guy constantly moving the blowtorch is the reason it didn't burn down that building. Imho
I don't care what it takes but keep rolling these videos, and don't go behind chasing the algorithm these long format deep dive videos are simply amazing and are seen to be nowhere soo this channel is like a heavenly source of raw data...
🤜🤛🤠
Thoroughly professional research & presentation, much appreciated.
Keep us armchair technologists up to date.
Knowledge is good antidote to fear, FUD & superstition.
Lol for the guy sitting in an office, holding in his hand a big chunk of magnesium while heating it with a blowtorch.
😁
@@thelimitingfactorHe heated his lunch with a blow torch?
. . . and the nonchalance of his co-workers. . .
The emitted magnesium vapors relax everyone 🤣
(pure engineering sarcasm)
What could possibly go wrong? 😮
Very informative!
The helicopter I worked in in the army had magnesium in it and we had a special class just about it… the item was covered in differing colored paint layers, so you could see how warm thru the layers you were and after so many layers, you knew it had to be removed and checked.
Sounds like these new alloys would eliminate those layers or lessen them.
Magnesium is good Lightweight metal , IMPOSSIBLE to repair and Difficult to Recycle @ end of LIFE.
AL is even Lighter , its Possible to repair Gigacastings as TESLA has already shown us (TESLA Asia).
AL Gigacastings are easy to Recycle , just shred and melt down, use again.
the Cybertruck 3mm Stainless Steel is extremely Durable , does not RUST , chip, dent or scratch.
its Bullet proof to .45 Tommy gun (Full Drum) , 9mm FMJ, Shotgun, and other small arms.
can be Wrapped or Mirror polished. very Easy to repair.
@jonsmith2088 - the same thing that happens to Powdered Mg.......lol.
thats why AL is better.
@jonsmith2088 - in this I Agree.
the Model S/X cast Aluminum front & rear axles are already pretty good.
Legacy auto should COPY.
@@markplott4820why is magnesium hard to recycle?
@@rubenayla I don't think it's hard to recycle, other than the obvious safety concerns you have to take when melting it. I think the market for recycling Mg just isn't there because there isn't the Mg scrap out there. My local metal recycling company won't take Mg. But I can sneak it in with the Al.😉
Outstanding. I’ve wondered for years about the future of magnesium as a structural material.
Magnesium is IMPOSSIBLE to repair , Difficult to Recycle.
Material science . Truly the base that a development stands on .
🎯
Personally I would be curious if magnasium from seawater would be more efficient if it used the brine wastewater from water distillation. I'm always looking for a way to combine resource extraction to use the "waste" of one product as feedstock for another.
Yes! There are a few places to extract it from
Additionally one could also source lithium from the same brine...
@@bernhardleopold6702 Frankly I would love it if we could use the brine from ocean desalination to feed mineral extraction instead of digging more mines on land. I'd also like to see mine tailings used as feed stock for other materials. Often mines have multiple minerals, but only one is actively extracted.
@@bernhardleopold6702 Theoretically uranium too - mining-free fuel for a nuclear powered future! (caveat: it's never been done economically...)
@@NickGobin i have no idea how to extract uranium, but depending on the process it could be potentially economical if it was combined with extraction of various other elements. But likely the chemistries involved would make this not workout how I am imagining.
The material will always be aluminum for Tesla until magnesium expands its capabilities. The aluminum used in the giga casting is designed to be able to be laser welded to aluminum sheetmetal, ultra sonically welded, tig welded, or using recycled scrap cutoff aluminum from the Stamping’s process. Your points about magnesium are all correct and notable but magnesium Stamping’s crack and break easily and welding it is risky. The giga press material is designed to have very similar nickel and titanium alloys so material bonding and recycling of scrap can be factored into the whole process. I appreciate that they didn’t just try to match a material to a part, or engendering problem without factoring in the larger process and the environmental impact of the product. I can’t think of another company that does this on such a broad spectrum.
It doesn't look like you're taking into account to thixomolded magnesium which is comparable to forged magnesium
@@thelimitingfactor being able to weld stamped sheetmetal panels directly to the casting out weighs the benefits of thixomolded and forged magnesium. Casting allows for part reduction and labor reduction, but welding parts together allows for simpler molds and more features. When you look at the parts impact on the factory’s impact as well as the additional problems you incurred (or don’t know you will create) against the material cost savings on a larger scale it becomes clear. KIS (keep it simple) is what is killing the automotive industry by not following. Monroe blasts them for this. Or, to put it another way, if Tesla could giga cast the whole car, they would still cover it in stamped parts and still weld on brackets and details that are too small to flow. Die cast parts take way to much time and labor to finish. It’s actually cheaper to attach a stamped part that doesn’t need finishing than a perfect Diecasting. The finish is the voice of the value of the object. The simplicity is the ugly bones and heart which are necessary and concealed. If you can make magnesium look pretty, I’ll change my argument.
This comment is based on skimming one recent survey paper titled _Solid-State Welding of Aluminum to Magnesium Alloys: A Review._ Any errors in this comment were probably introduced by me, and likely aren't in the original article be H. Chen and collaborators.
It takes special techniques to make a strong weld between an aluminum alloy and a magnesium alloy. In this case "special" doesn't always mean expensive.
With pure metals, when molten aluminum mixes with molten magnesium, they produce some very brittle _Inter Metallic Compounds_ or IMC. Although, just as this video mentioned that a little calcium in an alloy can dramatically reduce flammability, other additives can interfere with the production of those IMC.
Various flavors of solid phase welding also avoid forming the dreaded IMC.
My inner twelve year old, was particularly amused when I learned that you can weld two metals simply by slamming them together really fast, using explosives or huge magnetic fields. Although ultrasonic welding does seem like it would take up much less space on the factory floor.
As far as I'm aware Tesla bond different metals together rather than welding them.
@@thelimitingfactor the three main options for getting aluminum to fuse are tig, ultrasonic, and laser. Tesla isn’t the only one doing this. BMW uses ultrasonic wire bonding instead of solder. Laser can fuse copper, brass and aluminum and can weld under water eliminating the warping and heat issues as well as tig. You can also spot weld aluminum if you put steel plates between the electrodes to localize the heat source. I learned about all this by working directly with the people that fabricate the products you see everywhere. The rest of the world has been doing this kind of welding for quite a while. You really should go go to the factory to see what they are doing. Cyber truck will likely glue the stainless to the stamped and cast parts and I bet there are hundreds of other different bonding techniques in a single vehicle. All of which are reviewed and evaluated for the best combination of labor, speed, and reliability. I’m continually amazed at how much there is to learn about making and fabricating things. There is a massive amount of work that goes into making something simple. You have to weed through all this to find the right combination to achieve simplicity.
Great video! LFP batteries are great to mention too! As they don't contain any cobalt, which is what provides the oxygen that enables the fires to sustain themselves in the flrst place. They are in about 1/3rd of all new EVs, including all standard-range Teslas.
Thixo/rheo-cast metal is so awesome.
First you start with an alloy that transitions from liquid to solid over a range of temperatures, so neither pure nor eutectic. as you cool it to a temperature in the middle of it's melting range so that there is some solid and some liquid, you agitate it to break up the solid grains that are forming so they can't interlock. done right, you basically end up with a liquid metal full of dust of the same metal.
The biggest advantage of semi-solid metal, and what makes it almost as good as forged parts, is that when you fully solidify it, you get a crystal grain around every one of those "dust" particles. That gives you a very similar structure to when you heat-treat forged parts, and therefore very similar properties. Thixo-casting is also less prone to cracking as it solidifies so you can cast thinner walls than with traditional casting.
Thixo-forming, which is the word he used, generally refers to starting with metal that already has the right crystal structure and partially melting it before forming it. Rheo-casting is when you start with molten metal and agitate it as it cools before pouring it straight into the mold. Rheo-casting is gaining traction with lots of different metals because it's relatively easy to retrofit and gives much higher quality parts as long as they're not too big. From what I know, Chip-casting is specific to magnesium and refers to semisolid casting using a reciprocating screw (as pictured in the video) like in plastic injection molding with magnesium chips as the feedstock. I don't know exactly how it works, but I think it requires the low melting point and low enthalpy of melting of magnesium to work or we would do it with other metals.
Yes, I'm excited about it!
Wait - what is a reciprocating screw? That seems like the material would go... nowhere? Or is it just used to achieve the agitation as it cools for rheo-casting?
@@NickGobin It's a cool device invented for thermoplastic injection molding.
The screw part is that the main body is basically an auger that pushes material towards the front and melts and mixes the plastic by sheering it between the auger and the outside wall (basically friction).
The reciprocating part is that the screw can also move back to make a chamber in front which it fills up with a "shot" of material, then push forward to inject that "shot" into the mold.
It was revolutionary for injection molding because it keeps the plastic at a much more uniform and consistent temperature with a smaller machine than what came before.
Professional and well done. I like how you went down the checklist.
🤜🤛🤠
In the 1970's I once witnessed a Porsche 914 on fire. In those days, German cars were known for catching fire. It was an ordinary fire for a while. I remember the driver freaking out massively as he watched his car burn. When the magnesium aluminum alloy crankcase finally got hot enough to ignite, it was pretty spectacular. Magnesium doesn't make a car more likely to burn, but if it does manage to catch fire, things will be a lot more interesting.
I covered that in the video.
Magnesium has a lot of potential. Although compared to high performance aluminum alloys, that are surprising cheap due to scale, Magnesium alloys have much worse specific strength. The big advantage when my company was doing trade studies on magnesium is that it has much better relative stiffness (stiffness of comparable weight parts with optimized geometry) compared to aluminum.
The strength to stiffness design balance for a car can be difficult. For mass produced low cost vehicles often times manufacturers are fine with a less stiff car, that handles worse and has slightly worse efficiency, so long as it has the strength and factor of safety to reasonable be on the road. Sometimes the lower stiffness can help for crash absorption as well.
I know Tesla is using a custom aluminum alloy that doesn't require heat treating and is easy to cast. As far as I know there aren't any online details about that specific alloy's strength, but it could potentially have comparable strength to the magnesium alloys you discussed depending on how the Tesla engineers made the aluminum blend. I'm not sure if the magnesium alloys you mentioned require heat treatment or not, but I know that would definitely be a no-go for Tesla.
There's some details about it in their patent and I did a video on it
Better and better every time
Nice, I look forward to the next parts of the series. I've studied PEO processes for structural magnesium parts as a university assignment just 3 years ago. At that time magnesium was still considered to expensive for most products outside of sports equipments, prostheses and other relatively niche products alike. Will be fun to see wether or not magnesium parts will become mainstream automotive parts.
Interestingly, I have spider chart assessments for 2020 and 2030.
The landscape for magnesium will change dramatically 🤠
"Wether" is a castrated ram (sheep). Ouch. ;-)
(No offence intended)
@@iandavies4853Something I learned long ago helps me remember the difference in spelling: "It's not well known whether or not the weather caused the shepherd to depend on his bellwether to lead the flock in the fog." Trained wethers (castrated goats, sheep) with a bell on it's neck were used to lead the sheep and these were called a "bellwether".
@@user-vp1sc7tt4m that spelling gets me too - despite inflicting this change on many sheep.
I won’t mention what the Chinese / Italians used to do, just to keep soprano or get a job in harem.
its Better to Gigacast AL parts , the Entire model S cradles are Intergrated cast Modules.
Wellgo has been making magnesium bicycle pedals for 15+ years. The weight-to-strength ratio is just great! Also having cool sparks when you hit something with it is a bonus :D
😁💯
Striking Mg doesn't cause sparks. You're thinking of Ti.
Good vid. I had a motorbike with many magnesium castings decades ago. My current bicycle has a magnesium front fork.
Long awaited Chapter. Thanks JordanG.
Thanks, Jordan. Looking forward to the next videos on this topic.
I have a small business card printing die, made from Magnesium alloy. It's tough and fairly resistant to corrosion, despite it being an older alloy. The block had been used to print more than 1,000 business cards, and showed no real signs of wear. I tried igniting a piece of another die over a gas flame years ago and can confirm that it's a very good heat conductor which is surprisingly difficult to ignite by that method. That sample melted without igniting.
Thanks for the anecdote! It's helpful when people chime in like this.
Bro I can't wait until I afford to give you money. Your analysis is a fucking public service it's like being on the receiving end of a Killer Instinct combo of useful information.
I really appreciate hearing that today 🔥
I second that! You bring some awesome sauce to top of the meat n potatoes with Jordan. 👍🏻😎
Wish I could spare some spice to kick your way and help keep it flowing. Damn economy. 😑
Thanks Jordan. As always a great video, I always look forward to your deep presentations.
I owned a VW Beetle in the 60's that had a magnesium/aluminium alloy engine block!
Incredible work Jordon! Thanks so much for doing this. It looks like you've struck another topic that will be well worth diving into for us!
Thanks man!
Nice one!
My first reaction was: "Yeah, combine magnesium with Lithium Ion batteries, prone to burning like thermite!🙈", but if it can be alloyed in a way that prevents that bright white flame, then perhaps it has a potential anyway. 😄
Mind Blown 🤯 who knew, Mg from sea water
Blew my mind! I didn't know we did that for so long profitably.
American chemical wizardry dates back to the du Ponts, c. 1800
Aluminum’s head start over magnesium reminds me of how they got vacuum tubes working before transistors. Once vaccuum tubes worked, the impetus for making transistors work weakened quite a bit.
But they did eventually make transistors work and they literally changed everything. And will doing that for decades to come.
Once I had a small Puch/AT motorbike where I remember the gearbox was made of Magnesium. Also the rims. The Volkswagen Beetle had 30kg Magnesium in the Gearbox.
In my spare time, I rebuild VW Beetle gearboxes. The entire completed gearbox weighs 30kg, and most of that is steel. I would estimate the Mg castings for the trans weigh less than 10kg in total.
@@e-curb Should we investigate further, as both of us say its 30kg. But you say its steel where what I found its said its Magnesium? A magnet should tell us.
@@klauszinser There's no need to test anything. I'm actively working on them.
It could be that the reference you found meant 30kg in the whole car. The engine case is Mg, and it weighs more than the trans case.
@@e-curbThank you for clarifying. Yes, 30kg magnesium in total thats realistic.
And, I agree, the gears have to be steel the cover magnesium.
I'd imagine that extracting magnesium from brine output from a desalination plant would be a match made in heaven.
The "torch on magnesium" is interesting. Note that many B-29s were lost during WW II due to inflight fires, caused by burning crankcases (made from magnesium)
A few notes here:
First, as I pointed out, alloys now are better. WWII was the dawn of magnesium.
Second, your car won't be taking anti-aircraft fire.
Third, you can stop your car and get out of it if it starts on fire. The burning plastic, batteries, and/or oil and gas will kill you long before the magnesium ignites.
@@thelimitingfactor If the car is an EV and the battery catches fire spontaneously, you can say goodbye to the rest of the car too now. Lots of fun for the fire department that has to deal with it.
@@aftonline Well to be fair, if an ICE car catches on fire it's going to be scrapped too. Gas fires and battery fires are both catastrophic, but battery fires take longer (and different methods) to put out.
Correct, @@tysonn4736. I watched our local fire brigade trying to extinguish a gasoline-fuelled car fire on our street, about an decade ago. Long story short, they dowsed the surrounding property's fences and the road surface with water, and essentially let most of the car burn itself out, before starting to tackle the fire itself. It's rare that a road vehicle can be saved from an established fire, whatever material it is made from or whatever power source it uses.
@@thelimitingfactor To nitpick, a lot of those B-29 fires were because the engines overheated. But that was kind of a problem that doesn't really generalize to cars, with tightly cowled (to minimize drag) four row air cooled radial engines putting out thousands of hp. All rushed into production as there was a major war going on.
OK, so I was very suprised to know that Mg is so very dense in seawater. Therefore, where there are desalinations plants (with their asociated brine disposal issues) there is already a place to pull Mg and spread the cost across two goals. This also will help reduce the brine density volume at the end of the combined process.
Considering the fact that there is 1.3g of Mg in seawater on average means that even if we used 100 million tonnes of it per year, all from seawater, we'd be set forever (17.4 billion years).
Wow! Thanks for tackling this topic from all 5 of those perspectives! Very hopeful.
Magnesium has an elastic modulus of 45 GPa vs 70 GPa for aluminium.
Also thixotropic casting is much slower than die casting which significantly increases the cost, particular for larger castings.
Adding another metal to a structure adds additional galvanic corrosion problems. The aluminum Gigacasting does result in a manufacturing advantage that may not be available for magnesium.
I've watched side by side comparisons of thixomolding and regular high pressure diecasting and the thixo was faster.
Thixomolding is only slightly more expensive, but you get a much higher quality product.
But if magnesium gets cheaper than aluminum, that changes.
Galvanic corrosion isn't a problem. People said the same thing about Tesla using aluminum but it was simply a matter of joining the metals.
Thixotropic casting requires higher injection pressures and has lower injection speeds than die casting. This is because the metal is in a semi solid state for thixotropic casting while it is in a liquid state for die casting.
Thixotropic casting can have an advantage over die casting because it tends to allow a wider range of alloys options as well as giving some additional heat treatment options.
I went out shooting practice once with some friends. One of the guys set a magnesium wheel rim out amongst the targets.
It was memorable for several reasons. One of my friends handed me his 4570 falling block heavy barrel. I fell in love. I just couldn't miss.
The amusing thing, was watching the sparks fly from that mag rim... shortly after I pulled the trigger... and even longer to hear the "ding".
Thanks!
You're most welcome!
Great video Gordon. Thanks for sharing
I miss the "toss a coin to your Witcher" line at the end 😂 Great video as always, thank you!
that awesome what a way to encourage a lithium thermal runway
The Pontiac Fiero had a thick magnesium ventilation screen right on top of the engine. That car had a bad rap for catching fire.
...but not because of the magnesium. Google it
More flammable fun for me! Air cooled VW blocks were great fun to toss in camp fires (NOT near anything you care about burning).
Repair of automotive magnesium castings is more difficult but repair is no longer a consideration by OEMs other than by replacing parts. If a large casting is damaged the vehicle can be written off as that's what insurance is for. (If you've a new vehicle that's damaged you're better off not getting that one back anyway and buying a replacement with your payout.)
😁
Excellent information and presentation.
Awesome video, thanks for updating us on where the tech is headed!
Excellent episode!
As usual, excellent work buddy! Thank you for the legit infotainment.
amazing as always - thank you, sir!
Even if they use only a small amount, Apple's impact on the production of Aluminum was significant because it promoted cooperation among production giants. This anecdote is important because it illustrates a key point: Aluminum can not only be cast but also machined. Steel is a good example of a material that can be worked in many ways, casting, sand casting, machining, laser cutting, forged, etc. Aluminum and steel have a diverse ecosystem around them, with soldering tutorials and techniques, glues (mostly for Al) a wide variety of alloys, etc. Finally, there is the issue of fine characterization of the degrading of parts, like fatigue under stress and/or thermal loads. I see a future for Magnesium but it will take a while if we want to do it responsibly.
Based on data on your site one can conclude that thixomolded magnesiun would be great material for fishing reel frames providing it is coated to protect frame from salt.
Magnesium is a light and strong material that has been used in the manufacturing of bicycle frames and many other items in the past. However, it was eventually phased out in many areas due to several important reasons.
First, magnesium is an extremely reactive metal that can corrode and degrade quickly when exposed to moisture, salt, and other environmental factors. This made it a less durable and reliable option for items such as bike frames compared to other materials such as aluminium and carbon fibre.
Second, magnesium is also relatively expensive to produce and machine, which made it more costly for manufacturers and less appealing to consumers.
Finally, other materials such as aluminium and carbon fibre have continued to improve in strength and durability, making them more viable options for bike frames and other uses.
As a result, magnesium is now rarely used in mass production of these types of products. Alloys of Magnesium as being discussed here offer some hope of a renaissance, but it may turn into another false dawn as other material sciences advance.
That's why I'm doing a whole series on it.
Anyhow, I'm not sure if you even watched the video because I covered you first point
No need to get personal, my comment was not a criticism of you or any of your facts. Surely you should be able to take some contrasting comments@@thelimitingfactor
@@mrpaul5726 Bad attitude? Super sensitive? Attacking...? Your response resembles magnesium... "extremely reactive". lolz Can we just focus on your point, "Alloys of Magnesium as being discussed here offer some hope of a renaissance" and encourage the content creator to continue providing the YT community with quality content?
@@emc4TW Appreciate the humour my friend, point taken, as is mine I hope .
@@mrpaul5726 You need to calm down. TLF's reply was reasonable as he DID review the issue you bring up early in the video. Your "bad" should be self-directed.
Thanks for your video. Looking forward to viewing the entire series. Erik Buell's next entry into the motorcycle market, the all electric Fuell Fllow, is going to have a magnesium monocoque.
the engine casing of honda dirtbike, 3 wheelers, and 4 wheelers in the 80s were magnesium alloy
Magenium is something like 8th most common element. China dominate because they co-locate with coal burning power plants and get heat for free. I do see it having a presence but not to the point where you think they will go. Obvious low hanging fruit is knocking about 2 or 3 kg off each corner of a car by going to magneium alloy wheels which are milled/forged. It is either going to be that or going to milled/forged aluminium or else to plastic compounds from BASF and others as carbon fibre wheels are too expensive for mass market. After that the unsprung weight can move over to Magnesium in part. Magnesium is not fireproof so it won't be in battery enclosures. Performance cars needed lightness and the customer would pay. For mass market it will have to be lightness but profitable lightness. I don't see Magnesium going in to the chassis in great quantity as if it touches off aluminium castings elsewhere you have galvanic issues.
One of those points I already covered and some I'll cover in future videos.
The cost/unit strength slide really tells the tale here. Aluminium and Magnesium just are not good solutions unless the logistics and assembly considerations are providing the cost effectiveness. Steel is clearly the way to go to get weight savings in a cost per unit strength sense so it would be interesting to understand why it is being ignored for EV's. I can vaguely understand some of the benefits of these mega castings in terms of simplification/reduction in part count and potentail load path optimisation factors but that totally ignores the impact of weight, particularly in the EV sector. What am I missing here because Magnesium and Aluminium just do not add up for the end users and the planet.
Incorrect. Steel is so dense that a thin part is heavy, and stiffness is mostly a side affect of thickness. Watch my gigacasting series.
Great job!
During viet nam airborne had a minature jeep and a go cart type all terrain , both were magnesium
Both for light weight but also destroyed with an incinerator genade
But no special handling day to day
That firefighter standing his ground facing the explosion close-up is a fucking beast.
AMEN! I'm glad someone finally commented on that.
Absolute G😎
Awesome review, thanks.
The burning lithium creates a metal fire existing at temperatures of 2,000 degrees Celsius/3632 degrees Fahrenheit. Attempting to douse the fire with water is inadvisable since this could lead to a hydrogen gas explosion! I guess we will see if that will light off magnesium alloy ? We use to burn holes in concrete with magnesium shavings . Glad they figured how to prevent it catching fire !
Covered in the first video
Even if they didn't solve it, it's still not a problem for commercialization.
It's no threat to passengers, because whether you'll be out of the vehicle by the time it ignites, and if you aren't, you'll be baked by the plastics in the car first. As for the firefighters, they have training, suits, and they've been dealing with this for 100 years. Millions of cars use/have use magnesium.
true , we will see how it works out !@@thelimitingfactor
magnesium can be a byproduct of lithium brines. when i read sf as a kid it was generally assumed spaceships would be built from an aluminum-titanium-magnesium alloy, perhaps mined from the moon.
Corvettes used to come from the factory with magnesium valve covers, 1984 to around 1993 I believe then they went to composite valve covers until 1996.
Interesting, that's about the same time that Dow shut down their magnesium production facility in Texas.
I coat magnesium often, but the pitting from pre existing corrosion takes a lot of work to straighten out. I skin the part with high temp jb weld. Then I sand the crap out of it. Off gas, blow down, reheat, then hot flock
About the flammability of materials in cars: we once set a car on fire for training at our fire department. We lit one of the headrests, which caused the fabric under the roof to ignite. In no time at all the fabric came down and the whole interior was set on fire. The passenger compartment burned out completely, although we started to put it out immediately.
Amen, about the only thing that's not a fuel source in the vehicle is the steel.
I wonder how PEEK & PEKK polymers compares??
"Compared to metals such as aluminum and steel, PEEK has greater tensile strength and can withstand prolonged exposure to high temperatures, harsh chemicals, and moisture. PEEK is also considerably lighter than steel or aluminum but does not sacrifice strength in any way."
Not sure, there are half a dozen different variables. For example, ductility for wrecks and durability to vibration/shocks, etc.
@@thelimitingfactormy understanding is there's a lot of Peek now being used in aviation, aerospace etc.
Lots of 3d printing startups using it etc. And there are other high performance polymers too like Ultem.
Would be a fascinating to see a video on the potential for these in vehicle manufacturing.
You, Sir, are a rock star!
😎
Insightful
Super content. Thank you
Great video Jordan! Looking forward to the series.
As a fire protection engineer, I winced a bit when you said "thermal runaway" at 5:16 - that's a term for batteries and is not correct to use on a chemical fire. Also, I would say your background in batteries is biasing how you look at magnesium. The issue with magnesium has never been spontaneous combustion (or increasing the risk of a fire), which is one of the main discussion points on lithium ion. So "addressing" that concern is irrelevant. The issue has always been increasing the consequence of a fire. And a test with a torch to one portion of a magnesium block or casting is not comparable to a vehicle fire - the torch test allows the block to conduct the heat away, whereas a vehicle fire that is surrounded by flames for an hour can raise the whole part's temperature high enough to burn, even with alloys that raise the ignition temp by 100C. The ignition temp isn't relevant for evacuation since the vehicle occupants will be long-gone as you point out, but we do tend to parks cars indoors in parking garages and in our houses that raises the stakes if it ever does get going.
Anyways, I don't mean to nitpick or criticize - overall a great video and I actually agree with your conclusion that magnesium has a bright future (no pun intended!). We Just have to make sure we're countering the factual arguments as we advance magnesium technology and adoption!
Thanks Nick!
1) Understandable. Fair point on terminology.
2) You and I understand that, but a lot of people seriously believe that magnesium is a spontaneous combustion risk. So I had to address it.
3) Same on this one. Yes, I realize the blowtorch is not comparable to a vehicle fire, but the reasoning here is the same as #2. Some people are concerned about magnesium's flammability, but by the time the magnesium would ignite, they'd be dead from everything else that would already be burning. But, you acknowledged that in your comment so we're in a agreement on the reality of it - again, scripting choice to address all the B.S. out there.
4) I agree, it does matter in specific situations. That's why the FAA has stricter criteria than a vehicle does. But, to cover all the angles would be another video.
4) Not taken as nitpicking 😉. But I do need to respond because you have credentials. People will notice that and may wonder why I made the narrative choices that I did. So, no disagreement on your points, but context was required.
Thank you!
Magnesium accident I am aware of: One person sands a magnesium part on a floor mounted belt sander in a lab. The next user sands steel and the residual magnesium in the belt goes on fire and burns the second user. This occurred at least 40 years ago at the Materials Lab in the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
The tiny amount of Mg caught in the belt won't do anything. What probably happened is that there was a lot of Mg dust on the floor around the belt sander, then as soon as the sparks from the steel grinding hit the Mg, Poof, it explodes.
VW used Magnesium alloy for their engine and transmission case,. I have seen these vehicles burn very energetically, water was ineffective in extinguishing and actually accelerated combusfion.
Yup, and lots of modern day cars use a lot of magnesium still (cross car beams, etc). But, you don't hear about it anymore because magnesium fires are pretty routine.
How is this startup called? Magrophia?
Couldn’t find it on any of your slides.
As always a awesome video.
Got it Arkieva
Magrathea Metals 🤠
It's not a public company yet.
(Magrathea is from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)
Yup. Came here for this. 😎
@@thelimitingfactor Magrathea is one more HHGG referent. No. Not MAGA For Frunk’s Sake!
@@thelimitingfactor thanks 🙏
From the name alone Elon should buy them and user their IP like from Maxwell, Hibar and Grohmann 👍
Someone should tell him 😅
Its the flammability DURRING MANUFACTURING (CNC machining) , not so much after the part is made.
Magnesium machines quite well, and part of the reason of using it is it requires less because you can make more detailed parts.
Beyond that, it diffuses heat rapidly so I'm not sure what you're on about.
@@thelimitingfactor He's correct to a degree - I'm a machinist, and made magnesium parts for spacecraft long ago. I did have one fire, but mitigation by ensuring good practices (sharp tools (low friction), limiting chip volumes and isolation in steel storage barrels) made the overall process pretty safe.
This was with older Mg alloys, newer ones are more stable and less likely to combust, as shown in the video. Near-net castings mean less machining for the completed part.
@@thelimitingfactor It isn't the Mg parts that are dangerous in the machine shop, it's the chips.
Great video
I've seen a lot about automakers using large castings for EVs but so far I haven't seen anyone talking about using them in ICE cars. Is there a reason?
I only follow EVs, so I'm not sure.
we will be using carbon-carbon and graphene before we use something as expensive and limited as magnesium like you suggest... but these metals will likely end up being used with these carbon materiels..
nearly all parts can now be made easily out of forged carbon - graphene fiber alloys
Magnesium is one of the most common elements.
The only reason it's limited is because there hasn't been a forcing function to scale it.
Carbon is more common, but carbon also requires complex manufacturing processes to turn it into a high strength material.
Magnesium is magnesium and can be cast.
Casting is about the fastest and cheapest way to manufacture something.
Extracting Magnesium from Seawater is like extracting Sodium from Seawater, because both are combined with Cloride to make the plentiful salt in seawater so I am not the least surprized that this has been done profitably.
Imagine a car with Magnesium frame and Sodium-Sulfur battey packs, you could be looking at half the vehicles mass being derived from SeaWater, wild. Now just figure out how to make the apolstry from Kelp.
I wonder if there is a detrimental effect on ocean life when you remove magnesium at a massive rate.
Nah, we would have to increase our consumption by 100,000x for it to have an even a small percentage impact in the course of our lives. There's quadrillions of tonnes of magnesium in the ocean.
I ride electric unicycles and one of the constraints is weight so the manufacturers are starting to use magnesium alloy wherever possible and feasible.
🙌
Material sciences seem to have caught their stride.
Is there benefits to collocating a magnesium extraction with desalination plants? Jordan Thanks, again for the informative and interesting content .
Potentially. The process can be used for a number of feed stocks like brines
Perhaps the rise of magnesium part will also bring cheap, reliable, fire detection sensors to mass produced cars.
No more than plastic, oil, and gasoline did
@@thelimitingfactor from an engineering perspective I agree. But insurance lobbies, and governments with agendas are known to disregard facts to pursue interests.
Respectfully. 👍
Mg parts in a car do not increase the risk of fire.
Is a 20kg part big enough to be a structural member of a car? Maybe the original Model Y with the split rear casting could be under 20kg per side.
I'll cover than in the next two videos 🤠
I seem to recall that a major problem for magnesium components is creep when under chronic stress.
Thixomolding helps
🤔 interesting
if a company is going to extract magnesium from seawater, they can also extract other elements such as bromine.
Yes and no. Depends on the concentration and the value of the metal.
It can be done for every metal, but it has to be commercially viable is probably the best way to put it
I am looking for post part production heat treating information for magnesium
magnesium alloys rock.
Make mags magnesium again.
Tesla used magnesium for the original Model S structural front carrier/radiator support. I thought it was a terrible idea, as it was highly susceptible to corrosion and very difficult/costly to replace. Mine was replaced (fortunately under warranty) twice, when I pointed out how badly it was corroding. They obviously abandoned magnesium and went to a polymer construction in/around 2014.
the corosion aspect seems to be the most concerning. Would magnesium be enough corrosion resistant for a 15-20 year life span for an outside vehicle?
Depends on the environment, but one of these new alloys is as resilient as marine aluminum
You didn't discuss fatigue properties. Yes, the poor fatigue props could be due to casting porosity, but Magnesium alloys themselves, do have lower fatigue properties due to its reduced atomic weight and density. Generally fatigue strength is proportional to Ultimate Tensile Strength, which is lower in Magnesium compared to Aluminium.
That's becaues this wasn't a deep dive, it was the an overview to kick off the series.
Fatigue properties can be handled with thixo.
I haven't finished the video, but I'm guessing the main reasons magnesium doesn't see as much use is cost and competition from CF composites
I do make a point in the video series that carbon fiber is increasingly competitive, but I also say that it's for different parts.
But, I'd have to do a deep dive on carbon fiber too
I'd be curious if both Magnesium and Lithium can be extracted from sea water as part of the same process. And maybe sourcing from the brine waste stream of a desalinization plant.
Lithium is a much lower concentration so it wouldn't be profitable
@@thelimitingfactor Kind of what I expected.
Great video as usual! Just a suggestion, when listening with a home theater audio system there is a lot of puffing on the microphone happening through my subwoofer, you might want to get one of those screens in front of your mic if you don't have one already :)
There already is a screen in front of it.
I can either back up from the mic and reduce the quality of the overall sound, or speak closely and have it impact subwoofers for the 1% of people who listen to it with subwoofers.
That is, it was a deliberate choice.
Bear in mind that I spent an hour cleaning up the plosives. So it is something I tried to reduce, but it's just how it goes.
Unless somebody wants to volunteer to clean all of them up? 😁
@@thelimitingfactor hey no worries, it's not that bad, I just thought I'd let you know :) it's definitely higher quality than most videos. Curious, is your pop filter far enough back from your mic to work effectively?
Yes, and as soon as I move back from the mic all the bass drops out of my voice, so I don't move back any further.
Move the mike to the side of your mouth and not directly centered in front of you. Point the mic at your mouth. Don't point your mouth at the mic. You don't have to "talk into" the mic for it to hear you. If you hold your hands in front of your face and say "Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers" you will feel puffs of air straight in front of your mouth and slightly down. Don't put the mic there. Put it to one side where there is no air puffing. This also looks better on camera because the mic isn't blocking your face. You can still be close to the mic so proximity effect boosts your bass. Be sure to aim the mic at your mouth. Don't think bad audio is OK because most people don't have subwoofers. You can have good audio. You don't need a blast screen in front of the mic if you just position it correctly. I've been doing audio for over 50 years. Try this.
@@jackwickman2403 I often find that when people do things that long they get arrogant and presumptious.
There's only one place I have to record audio. If I move the microphone off centre then it creates terrible echo and acoustics. That's because I'm recording in front of a 3 foot wide curved screen.
Yes, I could change the set up, but I have other priorities at the moment.
As for the rest, I learned it in the first day of recording. You're not dishing out insider knowledge here, it's all available on YT.
But, if you think you can do my job better - I welcome it. I've long encouraged other people to replicate what I do with this channel.
Most of the Magnesium will go to bikes seeing how more and more people are done with the insane traffic in the city everyday. A lot of the people commuting by bikes will still buy cars but a lot more people will save that money since 99% of their time is spent in the city.
A Mg frame is such a great idea, its likely IDRA and Tesla are working on it now.
Nah, do the entire body and gas tank in ultralight Magnesium. Even better if it's the next Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR!
This video didn't explain away the concerns. It presented potential mitigations as bulletproof points.
For example, stamped parts will have less thermally conductive geometry than a cylindrical ingot, that test is not a complete solution to the concern.
It doesn't have to be. It only needs to be commercially viable. There is no wonder material. If you find it, let us all know and make yourself a trillionaire.
お疲れ様でした
14:35 - I'm surprised how low Nickel is on the charts, especially considering that Cr and Ti are higher up.
Sounds like a feathwr mechant to me. I have seen aircraft damage due to fire involving magnesium, and it can't be put out. Also recognizing corosion is a problem. Inner granular corrosion can hardly be known until failure is imminent.
It looks like you didn't watch the video.
But thanks for commenting, it helps the channel
I did watch it Mr limited. But I also happen to spend my entire work in aviation, repair, manyfactruing, and test. I know what you are saying is half true, but the other half is wish. @@thelimitingfactor
It seems we get a lot of press about light weighting vehicles and you see a lot of parts that have been made lighter that are being incorporated into production vehicles. Unfortunately, overall vehicle weights are just going up, so obviously there is just not the return on making things lighter. It's a pity, as I'm not interested in cars over 2,500lb. I would prefer we skip all the batteries and just drive light weight, nimble vehicles. It's just more fun!
The heat dissipation is keeping it from igniting. ......wrong
The guy constantly moving the blowtorch is the reason it didn't burn down that building.
Imho
Wrong!
Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.