1) Before making a comment about the flammability of magnesium, watch the first video of the series. 2) A note on wheels and efficiency. I checked out dozens of articles, websites, UA-cam videos, and research papers: 1) For those that did real world testing, it doesn't appear that anyone has actually taken the same vehicle and tested efficiency using two sets of different weight wheels that have the same wheel diameter, same tires, similar design, and with relatively identical test conditions. If you've found test the was done with excellent methodology, let me know below! Not surprisingly, everyone came up with different results for the impact of wheel weight on efficiency and disagreed on what the variables where (like sprung vs unspring weight, etc). 2) For those that did calculations, the calculations make sense but also seem to leave out variables. For example, yes, at a constant speed on the highway it doesn't take additional energy to keep spinning the wheel (just the wheel, not drag, friction, etc). However, vehicles don't stay at a constant speed on the highway. During acceleratation and regenerative braking, energy is lost due to round trip inefficiencies due to resistance losses, etc. 3) Government reports are usually based on internal combustion vehicles. EVs are far more efficient so they are far more sensitive to changes in efficiency, so it's not a like for like comparison and not applicable. Indicative yes, but the effiency gains can't be cut and pasted. 4) Overall, the upper end figures I found for the impact of wheels on efficiency suggested ridiculously high efficiency gains for lighter weight wheels, like a 5% improvement for each 3 pound weight reduction per wheel. The lower end figures were also ridiculous, such as .35% efficiency gain for a 15 pound weight reduction on each wheel. 5) I picked the video that despite being imperfect, had the best overall test in the real world and not based on theory that can leave out variables. So, in the example I picked...Yes, the shape of the tires has an impact, along with the shape and size of the rims, etc. But, it was the best example I could find. Happy to run this test if people want to fund it! But, bear in mind that the forged magnesium rims with tires would cost about $13,500-$15,000... which explains why people haven't run the test 💰. 6) Lastly, all of this doesn't really matter for the purposes of the video above. Magnesium wheels would definitely increase efficiency. And, there's a very high likelihood that pound for pound, they would provide greater efficiency gains than using that magnesium in the vehicle structure - which was my point. 7) But, even if wheels didn't offer better efficiency per pound of magnesium than using it in the body, they would still be a great place to start with large magnesium castings because they're the right part size, have the potential to reduce costs, improve handling and ride quality, and reduce CO2 emissions.
An oversimplification has been done on the cost to strength issue of Mg: strong lightweight materials have higher structural bracing if higher stresses are to be applied. If not, then there are no savings. The relationship between material strength and volume usage (cost) is not linear.
@thelimitingfactor Do you know who I can contact regarding my availability of magnesium chips? I would like to part of this process and I have a good supply of chips.
First comment at: 20.49. Weigth of the wheels is not very important to the efficiency of the Electric vehicle based on my calculations and tests. If and when I get rid of 24kg of rotating weigth in Model Y. Energy savings in steady state speed is only 0,2% from what comes from weigth loss. What matters to consumption is the Aerodynamics and rolling resistance of the tires. 24kg rotating wheels and tires weigth loss impacts to acceleration is 3% in Model Y and little less for braking. Impact to drivability of the vehicle will be bigger. Where the energy savings in EVs wheels and tires can come from can be seen in this video: ua-cam.com/video/sRzaYvnW2JU/v-deo.htmlsi=-SSmFESp02tdgK4u you can find more videos on the topic on the channel. Here I am developing new wheels and tires to evs and this thixomolded magnesium is the top choice for material at the moment. So thanks for the videos you make on the topic. My current design is 8x18 and weigth under 7 kg if made from 6061-T6. Your questions rack at the pinned comment: 1) I have tested many wheels and a lot of videos on my channel. Its difficult to measure impact of only wheel weigth savings on road even to professional who has done it 15 years or so. Needs perfect conditions and good test methology. If you need help for the setup send me message and I can tell how I would do it depending where you live etc. 2) EV gather some of the potential energy back so savings are even less than in petrol car what comes to weigth savings. 5) if you want to test the weigth savings on wheels just pick a EV where you can fit steel wheels and wheelcovers. Then just add a 10mm thick layer of steel to the wheel to get enoguh weigth savings that can be measured. I would recommend that you actually put there 50kg extra to get so much weigth difference that you have any chance to measure it on the road. For city driving maybe 25kg is enough. Put ithe weigth on the barrel to get bigger impact on rotating weigths I could do also this test I have 2 sets of 195/60R18 tires, but sadly at the moment no steel wheels in that size. maybe I could use the 17" wheels and buy a second similar steel wheels that I have at the moment. But in short you dont need to buy any mag wheels to test weigth differences in wheels. It goes both ways in general the same way how it handles in the car. Of course it goes much worse when adding weigth compared to current desing. But on the other hand if go smaller diameter wheels and tires than oem you already have lighter basic set so impact is not so big. 7) I would like to go magnesium design because of the noise absorbing features of the magnesium. I already have the lightest design on chosen material. If anyone is interested to help me out I am trying to build a team to battle the challenges of a startup. Special needs will be in the sales and marketing side of things. If you are a manufacturer that already has purchased a magnesium thixomolding machine that can make parts that are under 10kg I think we should talk.
@@malax4013 Dillon's OK. Haven't seen his stuff in a while though. Don't know if he moved on to other things or the Algo doesn't send him my way anymore.
You've always been the master at presenting complex information. This video is so well though out and clear it's easy to understand and follow along. I really had no idea of the improvements in magnesium alloys. Nor was I aware of its cost coming down to be on par with aluminum.
You're basically getting a multidisciplinary engineering science degree with all of these topics you're producing! Very excited for Magnesium efficientcy improvements in the future. Great work man!
@@jamesdallas1493aluminum actually burns easier than magnesium, but we add things to it to stop it from happening, this is already been proven to work just as well from magnesium
Besides vibration damping and lower rotating mass, magnesium wheels provide lower *unsprung weight* , i.e. less mass that goes up/down on bumps. Lower unsprung weight means that the tires stay in better contact with the road, providing more traction in turns and acceleration/deceleration, and thus important to performance and safety. It also affords the use of smaller shock absorbers - making for a lighter vehicle as well.
In the Tesla Owners Silicon Valley test, they used different tires and even different tire sizes (smaller tires are more aerodynamic). This means that we cannot make valid conclusions about the effect of the weight reduction. However, it's clear that wheels are one of the best places to save mass, the lower moment of inertia makes the wheels spin up with less energy and it's a dream come true for the suspension engineers.
@@jamesengland7461 Quarter mile is pure acceleration, of course you're going to see a big difference. we're talking about energy consumption in real world driving here. put another way, no one would load up their car with an additional 500 lbs of weight for drag racing, but tests done by Byorn Nyland (Teslabjorn) show that it almost doesn't matter for highway consumption.
Just last month replaced my 17x7 stock wheels on the Subaru BRZ and got some Enkei RPF1 17.7.5's. Much lighter wheels and an eye opening difference in every way. Smoother ride, less effort accelerating and even more nimble handing. Fascinating watching EV's getting lighter over time and the downward impact on price as a result.
I can certainly vouch for the importance of weight reduction in wheels. For bicycles, the adage is “ 1 pound saved on the wheels is like 4 pounds on the rest of the bike”
First comment at: 20.49. Weigth of the wheels is not very important to the efficiency of the Electric vehicle based on my calculations and tests. If and when I get rid of 24kg of rotating weigth in Model Y. Energy savings in steady state speed is only 0,2% from what comes from weigth loss. What matters to consumption is the Aerodynamics and rolling resistance of the tires. 24kg rotating wheels and tires weigth loss impacts to acceleration is 3% in Model Y and little less for braking. Impact to drivability of the vehicle will be bigger. Where the energy savings in EVs wheels and tires can come from can be seen in this video: ua-cam.com/video/sRzaYvnW2JU/v-deo.htmlsi=-SSmFESp02tdgK4u Here I am developing new wheels and tires to evs and this thixomolded magnesium is the top choice for material at the moment. So thanks for the videos you make on the topic. My current design is 8x18 and weigth under 7 kg if made from 6061-T6. Your questions rack at the pinned comment: 1) I have tested many wheels and a lot of videos on my channel. Its difficult to measure impact of only wheel weigth savings on road even to professional who has done it 15 years or so. Needs perfect conditions and good test methology. If you need help for the setup send me message and I can tell how I would do it depending where you live etc. 2) EV gather some of the potential energy back so savings are even less than in petrol car what comes to weigth savings. 5) if you want to test the weigth savings on wheels just pick a EV where you can fit steel wheels and wheelcovers. Then just add a 10mm thick layer of steel to the wheel to get enoguh weigth savings that can be measured. I would recommend that you actually put there 50kg extra to get so much weigth difference that you have any chance to measure it on the road. For city driving maybe 25kg is engouh. I could do also this test I have 2 sets of 195/60R18 tires, but sadly at the moment no steel wheels in that size. maybe I could use the 17" wheels and buy a second similar steel wheels that I have at the moment. But in short you dont need to buy any mag wheels to test weigth differences in wheels. It goes both ways in general the same way how it handles in the car. Of course it goes much worse when adding weigth compared to current desing. But on the other hand if go smaller diameter wheels and tires than oem you already have lighter basic set so impact is not so big. 7) I would like to go magnesium design because of the noise absorbing features of the magnesium. I already have the lightest design on chosen material. If anyone is interested to help me out I am trying to build a team to battle the challenges of a startup. Special needs will be in the sales and marketing side of things. If you are a manufacturer that already has purchased a magnesium thixomolding machine that can make parts that are under 10kg I think we should talk.
Dude! I just checked out the video that you linked - You're doing really great and thorough work, I love it 🔥 Are you on X? Because if you are, I'll repost some of your work and get some eyes on it. The type of testing and videos you do would be great for content there.
This is why I support Jordan, it's facts it's information, no opinion but if opinion it's related to the facts about Tesla and their processes. Very well done again
When I was in the USAF, I spent many hours in a firetruck on the flight line watching Magnesium wheels on fighter planes in case they caught on fire, since you probably could not put the fire out if they caught on fire. (The idea was to save the pilot). Good luck convincing anybody to buy these.
They already do buy vehicles with magnesium castings in them. That is, it's pretty much pushing through an open door in the market. Yeah, it looks scary, but that doesn't stop people from carrying, for example, a phone in their pocket all day that could permanently disable and scar them if it explodes. At least with the Mg casting, it's all the plastic and batteries that will kill you before the magnesium even ignites.
Thanks Jordan. This is really fascinating. I have an interest in both the vintage and new tech subjects and your automotive video is very exciting and mind expanding
Impressive work Jordan - shared on X - I just wait for the video with extracting magnesium from sea water - I would say that for Tesla the best economic and easy to implement scenario at the moment is to offer magnesium wheels as a standard to counteract the new range estimations. Thank you for your work on this video and ATB to your team / collaborators.
It seems the lighter the car , and assuming the same tires are used, the less wear and tear to road surfaces. It would be interesting to tumble the numbers on vehicle weight in relation to road and bridge longevity, maintenance costs and public safety if those cost savings could be put in to improving roads.
@@musaran2 Thanks for your comment. I looked up the fourth power of axle load and you are correct. This now has me wondering what proportion of road maintenance the heavy transport industry pays.
Very interesting, I love Mg. Mass begets mass. The reduction in weight has a strong trend to continue doing so. I do not like 2 tonne family cars. One material I have a strong interest in is Titanium and its alloys. Light, strong as steel, very corrosion resistant, and its ore is very plentiful. The limiting factors are cost and workability. The Kroll process is very old and energy intensive, leading to the high cost. The Cambridge FFC process is in its infancy and much more cost effective. I would love to see a video on the current state of play for Titanium, and what is in motion to bring down costs, allowing for its mass incorporation into cars, trucks, buildings, infrastructure, etc..
Where is the ore for titanium plentiful. The last I looked most titanium in industrial use goes to make white paint and it was sourced from sand mining which was very environmentally destructive and uncommon.🤔
I am not sure if you can extrapolate some weight savings on castings directly to savings on other components such as battery, propulsion, brakes.... Those have to be designed to match the maximum allowed gross weight, which remains unchanged.
@@thelimitingfactor That would be great. There's lot of confusion about aluminium alloys not having fatigue limit (unlike steels). It be interesting to see the comparison and similarities between aluminium and magnesium alloys. It's probably more important in aerospace, but I guess if magnesium is gaining popularity aerospace industries will also be interested in lighter and cheaper materials and processes.
Another excellent video Jordan. Your well thought out presentations are great. These are not easy topics to go through, but for anyone truly interested in the world shifting to electric vehicles, your videos hit on some the foundations for making the change happen. Do you have any engineers who have any idea how big the castings can get? I know many people have a goal of building full scale cars the ways small toy cars are made, basically a couple of castings would make 85% of the vehicle. Keep up the great work and I hope 2024 is your best year yet.
Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it. As for Al gigacastings - I've heard rumors that the limits are far beyound where we currently are. As for Mg thixo - it sounds like everyone is assuming that 20 kg shots is just the very beginning. That is, it doesn't sound like there's a physics limit that's been found yet...it's just a matter of engineering and the learning curve, step by step.
given the pressure required to make the castings larger with current machines and tesla basically maxing out the aluminum alloy design at this point, that seems challenging and very expensive. I think making the castings bigger would probably require looking into things like multi-point injection to reduce the travel distance and therefore the required pressure. I think another potential solution would be designing a few separate castings at the current size that socket together and are joined using a few large magnetic pulse welds.
Great analysis! One thing I noticed was the reports referenced compare magnesium in 2030 with aluminum in 2020. I’m sure aluminum isn’t standing still, what would it be like in 2030? Maybe the decision between the two will be more difficult!
Curious if any one has thoughts on Mg wheels, their weight reduction and combining this with hub motors. Many point to unsprung weight issues for not using Hub motors and this could be the answer in my opinion.
Bit doesn't Thixomolded Magnesium ignite at 900 degrees Fahrenheit? That could be a problem in EVs since Lithium Batteries burn a twice that temperature. At least according to the MSDS.
supply chain safety is most important, if the USA can make enough to supply itself there is a major risk in moving! Aluminum is super common, magnesium not so much. The micro chip shortage showed us you can not make cars without key components.
I am an EV skeptic because of battery problems. But, many of the advances in Magnesium thixomolding could benefit ICE vehicles as well. For both, It seems as though the 'low hanging fruit', is wheels. However, I am again reminded of previous experience with magnesium fracturing, rather than deforming, when strength limits are exceeded.
Magnesium becoming cheaper will be a welcomed development for lightweight camping gear; it's wild out there right now, very pricey! I'm about 1/3 of the way into the video, so perhaps you cover this later, but I can imagine there will be some alignment from Tesla with SpaceX on commoditizing the magnesium market. Cheaper, lighter parts for space craft and materials for the Moon and Mars settlements would certainly be useful. Thanks for the video - stoked about the future!
OOoooh, I didn't think much about Spacex. Good point. The rockets will be primarily stainless steel due to their strength to weight ratio and thermal tolerances. So, I'm not sure where that Mg could be used except in like vehicles, satellites, doors assemblies, etc.
Thixomoulding technology has been around for about 40 years. So far it has had less impact than was originally envisioned. The reasons for its lack of success are probably quite complex. It remains to be seen whether or not it can obtain the status of its original promise.
The reason why it didn't take hold for the first 20 years it because it was under patent and Thixomat did a poor job of commercializing it. Check out the headline article on Light Metal Age today.
@@thelimitingfactorThe patent issues in the light metal industry from the mid 1980s through to about 2010 has been a can of worms, however I doubt that is a factor that held back the adoption of thixomoulding. There are some definite theoretical advantages of thixomoulding over die casting so there may still be a bright future for the technology. The S&P global analysis does not appear to me to be of much value. Predicting the future prices of commodities is a game for the brave.
Fair enough, but you've effectively said nothing other than "I disagree, I'm cynical, and it's hard to predict the future" Great, but that doesn't add to the conversation and I haven't learned anything from this discourse.
Thixomolding might also better preserve homogeneity for composite alloy where components tend to separate when fully melted. There are many technology the are used to form metal while they are in a plastic or semi-molten state. Another factor is how quick the metal can be pushed into form as not to solidify on the way.
Jordan, I was curious if commercial planes used magnesium and they use only 1% on commercial planes. The FAA is now considering allowing more magnesium to be used now that fire issues are reduced by using Magnesium alloys. So if the airplanes can be made lighter, tons of fuel would be saved. I spent a number of years as crew chief for a person that raced a super fast Formula type car. I never forget the time I grab the tire and wheel with the magnesium wheels and was so surprised how light the wheels were. My friend the race car driver said back then exactly what you said today that a lighter wheel increase the speed and one thing he mention was "unsprung weight" is less. Thus increasing suspension handling and less weight of the wheel keeps the tire on the ground and that means more tire on the road going around turns meaning better tire to road contact. I would love Elon to start providing magnesium wheels on all Tesla cars first to increase the speed of the car and save on battery energy use. That really would be cool. Now that Magnesium Alloy can lower the the chance of fire that is great. Tesla should give customer an option to install magnesium wheels. I am sure Tesla can buy the magnesium cheaper if enough volume is used. How cool would it be to own magnesium wheels. I want it for sure. Very informative video, love it and learn so much. I looked up wheels for a Tesla and found they make carbon fiber wheels and guess what they cost ===> 20 inch wheel Model 3 Forged Carbon Fiber ---> $6,995.00. for a set of 4 ----->weighing in at 14.2 lbs each wheel----> Better keep car in a garage and within sight I couldn't find any Magnesium Wheels for a Tesla, but I found some information that may make you think twice, It says that Magnesium wheels get brittle with age. Jordan is this something you would consider researching as far as the longevity of the formed Magnesium over time. Jordan I did find a place that makes or sell magnesium wheels for Tesla. The brand is called "HALIBRAND ENGINEERING". the wheels for the Model 3 is called Hyperkinetic HB003 -----> price is $409.95. Not bad if you can save fuel over time. The HB003 wheels are 5 lbs lighter than factory stock forged wheels. The factory forged wheels for a Tesla is about 32-38 lbs. ---> double the weight of a forged carbon fiber wheel not sure on the magnesium wheels cause they didn't give me weight. Can look it up in a racing catalog. Thanks Jordan
Planes have very different economics than vehicles, with different requirements, and use much more advanced alloys with different metal working techniques. That is, it's not in my wheelhouse. Glad you enjoyed the video! Lol, yes, carbon fibre wheels and forged mag wheels are very dear. $ Hoping that changes with thixo
I'm not really sure assosciating porosity with low quality is a good expression. What you probably mean is the 'random porosity'. When it is not controled it creates unpredictable weak points. If one could make uniform porosity high strengh steel casting that would probably be extremely good quality but right now it is not possible :-)
not an expert at all, but I would worry that magnesium will corrode a lot more than Aluminum, and one should paint it. Also Galvanic corrosion when next to aluminum is a worry. I love aluminum for the corrosion resistance.
ONLY PROBLEM I SEE , Magnesium is highly flammable, especially when powdered or shaved into thin strips, though it is difficult to ignite in mass or bulk. Flame temperatures of magnesium and magnesium alloys can reach 3,100 °C (5,610 °F) add a lithium battery to this, AND IT WILL BE QUITE A SHOW WHEN IT LIGHTS UP !
I don't know how mag rims would do on a semi, but that's potentially a big opportunity. Each semi rim can weigh 50-80 pounds depending if it's aluminum or steel. 10 rims on the trick = potentially 150 to 300 pounds.
In bicycle riding most riders prefer carbon over magnesium not because it is much lighter but also because it is much stiffer. Magnesium dampens and that loses energy in Parts that need to be stiff. So I dont know if this applies to car wheels but its probably different.
Your vids are great, love the detail...however I'm wondering if Mg is made obsolete by carbon fiber which is about as light, very strong and replacing Al? Not sure if you did a vid on it...might be worth comparing. Also I hope one day to break into the vehicle field where weight is everything...seems it'd be easier to stick with Al and CF which are established industries...though Al is easier to form.
Likely different products with different use cases, properties, and cost structures. That is, much like there is no wonder battery, there is no wonder material. There are always first principles trade-offs. However, I don't know what those specific trade-offs are for carbon fiber. It's something I'd have to do a deep dive on.
@@thelimitingfactor ya true, Mg might have its niche...only worry I have for CF is that is breaks/brittle fracture...no smooth deformation, but the aerospace industry trusts it so it should be safe enough. Ya if you do a vid on this I'd look forward to seeing it.
Since they would be making both the mag and al dies, I left it out. I wanted to make it like for like as possible for a given manufacturer. If it was non tesla, then they wouldn't make either die in house.
I would think that the aerospace industry would probably become a large consumer of magnesium to replace some of the aluminum parts if it can be vetted for safety and the costs come down. The weight savings alone would make it attractive.
Would have expected aeronautics to be the 1st application for thixo mag, as weight is even more critical there. And the manufacturing cost savings over traditional mag substractive machining would seem substantial. Though the same arguments should apply to aluminum gigacasting as well. Is there a GC trend in aero ?
I’m so impatient for this change. Anything to get more cars in on the virtuous cycle of weight reduction. “Simplify and add lightness” is a mantra to live by.
Generally agree and enjoy the videos. Thank You. Comparing a 2020 Aluminum alloy to a future 2030 Magnesium should come with a cautionary note. Giga casting scrap can be remelted and reused in the car factory. With Thixomold the scrap can not be recycled in this way. These do not outweigh the advantages of Thixomold casting.
Thanks! The cautionary note was that I stated what the comparison was explicitly. And, I left everything on screen so people can make their own comparisons and come to their own conclusions. A good point on scrap, I did cover that in the last video but I could have touched on it again here
Biggest problem with Magnesium is it's flamability. Even the magnesium alloys that mitigate this will still burn at the temperatures NMC batteries produce during thermal runaway. The battery flamability problem will probably have to be solved first before Magnesium or Carbon fiber become common in automotive.
@thelimitingfactor I saw in the series where you showed silicon and calcium can raise the combustion temperature of a magnesium alloy. But none of those alloys raise above the temperature lithium battery fires will easily pass at 800 C and can go as high 2000 C. Then you also didn't show that fire resistant magnesium alloys have all the other benefits of magnesium.
When you show strength to weight (4:40), that's not really the whole story. often the design specification is for pannel stiffness both for durability and to handle compressive loads without buckling. Given that, a lower-density material is generally more efficient even if it has identical strength-to-weight and stiffness-to-weight ratios. I think it might be useful to show stiffness/denisty^3 in addition to the strength-to-weight ratios. it would do a lot to explain why aluminum and steel are about the same total cost even for traditional car manufacturing. Magnesium is a really interesting material and I'm curious where it goes once it's more available since it is so lightweight.
Correct, that's why I said that it would require another entire video to cover material properties. I deleted a full page of script just on buckling alone after I realized that it would turn the video into a >1 hour video.
@@thelimitingfactor I can see why that would happen. buckling isn't very intuitive if you haven't done any structural engineering (I just got my undergrad in aerospace engineering from Purdue), so I get why it wasn't included. A lot of the car, including a lot of the heavy energy-absorbing components, are stiffness-driven, not strength-driven, and some parts like paneling would probably use thinner metal if the tooling allowed. Given that, I think your strength only estimates probably undersell the potential weight savings with magnesium. On the other hand, as an engineer, I do appreciate conservative estimates.
Interesting video as always. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the CO2 footprint of Mg vs Aluminum as well as the fact that most Mg comes from China.
Hi Jordan, excellent work here. Question: did you consider any possible advances in aluminum by 2030? If aluminum also advances it could offset magnesium's increased advantages.
There's crush cans at the front and rear. Those can just be unbolted and a new one bolted on. Any damage beyond that would normally be a write-off for any car, and the same is true with giga castings
Thanks, Jordan. One thing you didn't discuss (or if you did, I missed it) is Mg's propensity to react with water, even water vapor. In your opinion, do you think this will be an issue if Mg is used for structural components?
Sure thing... Molten magnesium reacts with water, but that's really only an issue for the firefighters, and it's something they've been dealing with for about 100 years. Solid magnesium metal does have corrosion issues but... That's a solved problem. For references, check out the first video of the series.
It looked like your solution still used a gigapress... but with the addition of a device injecting into the mold at the same time. If it was you and you were Tesla, would you switch post haste? Are you confident the magnesium from sea water can be brought on line soon enough?
Sorry, didn't specify. I meant that since we're usingprogressively lighter casting metals, one day we could make car bodies out of lithium or hydrogen. Of course, we can't even make the latter yet. But do you know if it's possible to use lithium? I feel like it would be explosive, but then again I didn't imagine magnesium could be used either. @@thelimitingfactor
Your "back of the napkin math" about removing one 4680 cell per 2.2kg removed doesn't take into account aerodynamic drag which accounts for a significant amount of energy use 🧐 Depends on speed² so highly dependent on usage so difficult to precisely say how much it matters overall, but I'm guessing between 40-60%.
That's why it's called "back of the napkin math" You're bringing physics into it, which can be a 20 minute video in and of itself. I simply looked at the number of cells per a given weight, completely independent of any physics calculations, trim level, or conditions.
1) Before making a comment about the flammability of magnesium, watch the first video of the series.
2) A note on wheels and efficiency.
I checked out dozens of articles, websites, UA-cam videos, and research papers:
1) For those that did real world testing, it doesn't appear that anyone has actually taken the same vehicle and tested efficiency using two sets of different weight wheels that have the same wheel diameter, same tires, similar design, and with relatively identical test conditions. If you've found test the was done with excellent methodology, let me know below!
Not surprisingly, everyone came up with different results for the impact of wheel weight on efficiency and disagreed on what the variables where (like sprung vs unspring weight, etc).
2) For those that did calculations, the calculations make sense but also seem to leave out variables. For example, yes, at a constant speed on the highway it doesn't take additional energy to keep spinning the wheel (just the wheel, not drag, friction, etc). However, vehicles don't stay at a constant speed on the highway. During acceleratation and regenerative braking, energy is lost due to round trip inefficiencies due to resistance losses, etc.
3) Government reports are usually based on internal combustion vehicles. EVs are far more efficient so they are far more sensitive to changes in efficiency, so it's not a like for like comparison and not applicable. Indicative yes, but the effiency gains can't be cut and pasted.
4) Overall, the upper end figures I found for the impact of wheels on efficiency suggested ridiculously high efficiency gains for lighter weight wheels, like a 5% improvement for each 3 pound weight reduction per wheel. The lower end figures were also ridiculous, such as .35% efficiency gain for a 15 pound weight reduction on each wheel.
5) I picked the video that despite being imperfect, had the best overall test in the real world and not based on theory that can leave out variables. So, in the example I picked...Yes, the shape of the tires has an impact, along with the shape and size of the rims, etc. But, it was the best example I could find. Happy to run this test if people want to fund it! But, bear in mind that the forged magnesium rims with tires would cost about $13,500-$15,000... which explains why people haven't run the test 💰.
6) Lastly, all of this doesn't really matter for the purposes of the video above. Magnesium wheels would definitely increase efficiency. And, there's a very high likelihood that pound for pound, they would provide greater efficiency gains than using that magnesium in the vehicle structure - which was my point.
7) But, even if wheels didn't offer better efficiency per pound of magnesium than using it in the body, they would still be a great place to start with large magnesium castings because they're the right part size, have the potential to reduce costs, improve handling and ride quality, and reduce CO2 emissions.
An oversimplification has been done on the cost to strength issue of Mg: strong lightweight materials have higher structural bracing if higher stresses are to be applied. If not, then there are no savings. The relationship between material strength and volume usage (cost) is not linear.
@@ptviwatcherI took that into account. That's why I said I could do another video entirely on material properties.
@@thelimitingfactorawesome, thanks for the feedback!
@thelimitingfactor Do you know who I can contact regarding my availability of magnesium chips? I would like to part of this process and I have a good supply of chips.
First comment at: 20.49. Weigth of the wheels is not very important to the efficiency of the Electric vehicle based on my calculations and tests.
If and when I get rid of 24kg of rotating weigth in Model Y. Energy savings in steady state speed is only 0,2% from what comes from weigth loss. What matters to consumption is the Aerodynamics and rolling resistance of the tires.
24kg rotating wheels and tires weigth loss impacts to acceleration is 3% in Model Y and little less for braking.
Impact to drivability of the vehicle will be bigger.
Where the energy savings in EVs wheels and tires can come from can be seen in this video: ua-cam.com/video/sRzaYvnW2JU/v-deo.htmlsi=-SSmFESp02tdgK4u you can find more videos on the topic on the channel.
Here I am developing new wheels and tires to evs and this thixomolded magnesium is the top choice for material at the moment. So thanks for the videos you make on the topic. My current design is 8x18 and weigth under 7 kg if made from 6061-T6.
Your questions rack at the pinned comment:
1) I have tested many wheels and a lot of videos on my channel. Its difficult to measure impact of only wheel weigth savings on road even to professional who has done it 15 years or so. Needs perfect conditions and good test methology. If you need help for the setup send me message and I can tell how I would do it depending where you live etc.
2) EV gather some of the potential energy back so savings are even less than in petrol car what comes to weigth savings.
5) if you want to test the weigth savings on wheels just pick a EV where you can fit steel wheels and wheelcovers.
Then just add a 10mm thick layer of steel to the wheel to get enoguh weigth savings that can be measured. I would recommend that you actually put there 50kg extra to get so much weigth difference that you have any chance to measure it on the road. For city driving maybe 25kg is enough. Put ithe weigth on the barrel to get bigger impact on rotating weigths
I could do also this test I have 2 sets of 195/60R18 tires, but sadly at the moment no steel wheels in that size. maybe I could use the 17" wheels and buy a second similar steel wheels that I have at the moment.
But in short you dont need to buy any mag wheels to test weigth differences in wheels. It goes both ways in general the same way how it handles in the car. Of course it goes much worse when adding weigth compared to current desing. But on the other hand if go smaller diameter wheels and tires than oem you already have lighter basic set so impact is not so big.
7) I would like to go magnesium design because of the noise absorbing features of the magnesium. I already have the lightest design on chosen material.
If anyone is interested to help me out I am trying to build a team to battle the challenges of a startup. Special needs will be in the sales and marketing side of things.
If you are a manufacturer that already has purchased a magnesium thixomolding machine that can make parts that are under 10kg I think we should talk.
with Rob Maur taking a bow and exiting stage left, you're the only calm, soothing voice left in the Tesla community. You have a lot to live up to.
♥
You should check Dillon Loomis aka Electrified. He is calm and objective.
@@malax4013 Dillon's OK. Haven't seen his stuff in a while though. Don't know if he moved on to other things or the Algo doesn't send him my way anymore.
Dillon is reliably positive about everything Elon says and does. I agree he is calming. I disagree he is objective.
Agree!!!!
You've always been the master at presenting complex information. This video is so well though out and clear it's easy to understand and follow along. I really had no idea of the improvements in magnesium alloys. Nor was I aware of its cost coming down to
be on par with aluminum.
Thanks for watching! yes, it's exciting stuff 😁
Jordan, you are killing it with this magnesium series. Making it easy for a pleb like me. Thank you
🙌🏼🤠
Yep loved it. 🤠👍@thelimitingfactor
You're basically getting a multidisciplinary engineering science degree with all of these topics you're producing! Very excited for Magnesium efficientcy improvements in the future. Great work man!
Great way to put it! That's kind of what I'm going for
Does magnesium burn easily?
@@jamesdallas1493aluminum actually burns easier than magnesium, but we add things to it to stop it from happening, this is already been proven to work just as well from magnesium
Besides vibration damping and lower rotating mass, magnesium wheels provide lower *unsprung weight* , i.e. less mass that goes up/down on bumps.
Lower unsprung weight means that the tires stay in better contact with the road, providing more traction in turns and acceleration/deceleration,
and thus important to performance and safety. It also affords the use of smaller shock absorbers - making for a lighter vehicle as well.
♥
In the Tesla Owners Silicon Valley test, they used different tires and even different tire sizes (smaller tires are more aerodynamic). This means that we cannot make valid conclusions about the effect of the weight reduction.
However, it's clear that wheels are one of the best places to save mass, the lower moment of inertia makes the wheels spin up with less energy and it's a dream come true for the suspension engineers.
I've made a pinned comment.
Tesla Plaid Channel has done extensive drag racing and shows significant improvements in quarter more times on lighter wheels.
@@jamesengland7461 Quarter mile is pure acceleration, of course you're going to see a big difference. we're talking about energy consumption in real world driving here.
put another way, no one would load up their car with an additional 500 lbs of weight for drag racing, but tests done by Byorn Nyland (Teslabjorn) show that it almost doesn't matter for highway consumption.
Just last month replaced my 17x7 stock wheels on the Subaru BRZ and got some Enkei RPF1 17.7.5's. Much lighter wheels and an eye opening difference in every way. Smoother ride, less effort accelerating and even more nimble handing. Fascinating watching EV's getting lighter over time and the downward impact on price as a result.
That's really great to hear! Thanks for sharing, I like insights like this
The best part is no part.
The best wheel is no wheel,
The 2nd best wheel is an ultralight wheel
I can certainly vouch for the importance of weight reduction in wheels. For bicycles, the adage is “ 1 pound saved on the wheels is like 4 pounds on the rest of the bike”
@dewiz9596 Oh definitely. You not only have to move the mass along, you have to spin it up! Therefore weight at the rim is more important at the hub.
porsche and other manufacturers have been making magnesium wheels for decades, offering carbon fiber seats, roof, hood...........
First comment at: 20.49. Weigth of the wheels is not very important to the efficiency of the Electric vehicle based on my calculations and tests.
If and when I get rid of 24kg of rotating weigth in Model Y. Energy savings in steady state speed is only 0,2% from what comes from weigth loss. What matters to consumption is the Aerodynamics and rolling resistance of the tires.
24kg rotating wheels and tires weigth loss impacts to acceleration is 3% in Model Y and little less for braking.
Impact to drivability of the vehicle will be bigger.
Where the energy savings in EVs wheels and tires can come from can be seen in this video: ua-cam.com/video/sRzaYvnW2JU/v-deo.htmlsi=-SSmFESp02tdgK4u
Here I am developing new wheels and tires to evs and this thixomolded magnesium is the top choice for material at the moment. So thanks for the videos you make on the topic. My current design is 8x18 and weigth under 7 kg if made from 6061-T6.
Your questions rack at the pinned comment:
1) I have tested many wheels and a lot of videos on my channel. Its difficult to measure impact of only wheel weigth savings on road even to professional who has done it 15 years or so. Needs perfect conditions and good test methology. If you need help for the setup send me message and I can tell how I would do it depending where you live etc.
2) EV gather some of the potential energy back so savings are even less than in petrol car what comes to weigth savings.
5) if you want to test the weigth savings on wheels just pick a EV where you can fit steel wheels and wheelcovers.
Then just add a 10mm thick layer of steel to the wheel to get enoguh weigth savings that can be measured. I would recommend that you actually put there 50kg extra to get so much weigth difference that you have any chance to measure it on the road. For city driving maybe 25kg is engouh.
I could do also this test I have 2 sets of 195/60R18 tires, but sadly at the moment no steel wheels in that size. maybe I could use the 17" wheels and buy a second similar steel wheels that I have at the moment.
But in short you dont need to buy any mag wheels to test weigth differences in wheels. It goes both ways in general the same way how it handles in the car. Of course it goes much worse when adding weigth compared to current desing. But on the other hand if go smaller diameter wheels and tires than oem you already have lighter basic set so impact is not so big.
7) I would like to go magnesium design because of the noise absorbing features of the magnesium. I already have the lightest design on chosen material.
If anyone is interested to help me out I am trying to build a team to battle the challenges of a startup. Special needs will be in the sales and marketing side of things.
If you are a manufacturer that already has purchased a magnesium thixomolding machine that can make parts that are under 10kg I think we should talk.
Dude! I just checked out the video that you linked - You're doing really great and thorough work, I love it 🔥
Are you on X? Because if you are, I'll repost some of your work and get some eyes on it.
The type of testing and videos you do would be great for content there.
Well done sir. Appreciate you. happy 2024!
This video is quite epic and it's definitely highlighting more benefits than I have been able to find
This is why I support Jordan, it's facts it's information, no opinion but if opinion it's related to the facts about Tesla and their processes. Very well done again
🙌
Thanks to Jordan for helping us to keep an eye on key technologies that’s out there.
When I was in the USAF, I spent many hours in a firetruck on the flight line watching Magnesium wheels on fighter planes in case they caught on fire, since you probably could not put the fire out if they caught on fire. (The idea was to save the pilot). Good luck convincing anybody to buy these.
They already do buy vehicles with magnesium castings in them.
That is, it's pretty much pushing through an open door in the market.
Yeah, it looks scary, but that doesn't stop people from carrying, for example, a phone in their pocket all day that could permanently disable and scar them if it explodes.
At least with the Mg casting, it's all the plastic and batteries that will kill you before the magnesium even ignites.
Thanks Jordan. This is really fascinating.
I have an interest in both the vintage and new tech subjects and your automotive video is very exciting and mind expanding
Love to hear it!
Don't know if anyone is talking about this. Very intriguing!
Impressive work Jordan - shared on X - I just wait for the video with extracting magnesium from sea water - I would say that for Tesla the best economic and easy to implement scenario at the moment is to offer magnesium wheels as a standard to counteract the new range estimations. Thank you for your work on this video and ATB to your team / collaborators.
🙏🏼🤠
My time with magnesium was fire that consumed the vehicle , 1/2 ton mule USMC beautiful fire . Drilling holes to mount weapon and poof .
Good info. I wish you had touched on the time required to fill and cool the cast.
It was covered in the last video briefly...the cycle time is the same as al gigacasting
I LOVE YOUR QUANTIFING EVERYTHING ! TO ME NUMBERS CLARIFY EVERYTHING
As always, great video!
Glad to hear it Eduardo!
So much information I can use, thanks all of your work is appreciated
It seems the lighter the car , and assuming the same tires are used, the less wear and tear to road surfaces. It would be interesting to tumble the numbers on vehicle weight in relation to road and bridge longevity, maintenance costs and public safety if those cost savings could be put in to improving roads.
Road wear is proportional to the *fourth* power of axle load.
That makes cars negligible. Only trucks matter.
@@musaran2 Thanks for your comment. I looked up the fourth power of axle load and you are correct. This now has me wondering what proportion of road maintenance the heavy transport industry pays.
@@markumbers5362That's a great question, we should find out
Very interesting, I love Mg. Mass begets mass. The reduction in weight has a strong trend to continue doing so. I do not like 2 tonne family cars.
One material I have a strong interest in is Titanium and its alloys. Light, strong as steel, very corrosion resistant, and its ore is very plentiful. The limiting factors are cost and workability.
The Kroll process is very old and energy intensive, leading to the high cost. The Cambridge FFC process is in its infancy and much more cost effective.
I would love to see a video on the current state of play for Titanium, and what is in motion to bring down costs, allowing for its mass incorporation into cars, trucks, buildings, infrastructure, etc..
Where is the ore for titanium plentiful. The last I looked most titanium in industrial use goes to make white paint and it was sourced from sand mining which was very environmentally destructive and uncommon.🤔
Amen!
I am not sure if you can extrapolate some weight savings on castings directly to savings on other components such as battery, propulsion, brakes....
Those have to be designed to match the maximum allowed gross weight, which remains unchanged.
If you're starting with a clean sheet design or a remodel you can.
Lighter wheels would also improve the ride and handling as the sprung to unsprung mass ratio would be better.
🎯
I'd be really interested in comparison of fatigue (limit) characteristics of aluminum and magnesium alloys.
I may do a video on that, but it'll be a while, in the meantime at 27:43 I included the title of a paper that covers this.
@@thelimitingfactor That would be great. There's lot of confusion about aluminium alloys not having fatigue limit (unlike steels). It be interesting to see the comparison and similarities between aluminium and magnesium alloys. It's probably more important in aerospace, but I guess if magnesium is gaining popularity aerospace industries will also be interested in lighter and cheaper materials and processes.
Super excellent - as usual. Thank you
Another excellent video Jordan. Your well thought out presentations are great. These are not easy topics to go through, but for anyone truly interested in the world shifting to electric vehicles, your videos hit on some the foundations for making the change happen.
Do you have any engineers who have any idea how big the castings can get? I know many people have a goal of building full scale cars the ways small toy cars are made, basically a couple of castings would make 85% of the vehicle.
Keep up the great work and I hope 2024 is your best year yet.
Thanks man! Glad you enjoyed it.
As for Al gigacastings - I've heard rumors that the limits are far beyound where we currently are.
As for Mg thixo - it sounds like everyone is assuming that 20 kg shots is just the very beginning.
That is, it doesn't sound like there's a physics limit that's been found yet...it's just a matter of engineering and the learning curve, step by step.
given the pressure required to make the castings larger with current machines and tesla basically maxing out the aluminum alloy design at this point, that seems challenging and very expensive. I think making the castings bigger would probably require looking into things like multi-point injection to reduce the travel distance and therefore the required pressure.
I think another potential solution would be designing a few separate castings at the current size that socket together and are joined using a few large magnetic pulse welds.
Great analysis! One thing I noticed was the reports referenced compare magnesium in 2030 with aluminum in 2020. I’m sure aluminum isn’t standing still, what would it be like in 2030? Maybe the decision between the two will be more difficult!
Look closer at the spider charts. The information is on the screen.
@@thelimitingfactor thanks! I tent to listen to your videos as audio podcasts on the road. I’ll revisit!
🙋♂️THX JORDAN ,AND YOUR SUPPORTERS FOR THE EDUCATION 🧐 IN LAYPEOPLE TERMS 🤗💚💚💚
Sure thing 😀
Comment for the algorithm
You do a grate job!!! Thank you for making this set of videos
Hey thanks man, suer thing! 🤠
I liked before I even watched, I know this is gonna be good
I enjoyed making this one 😊
Thanks!
As an engineer that was top notch👍
Excellent! Glad to hear it 🤠
Curious if any one has thoughts on Mg wheels, their weight reduction and combining this with hub motors. Many point to unsprung weight issues for not using Hub motors and this could be the answer in my opinion.
You have no idea of the improvements in electric propulsion. Hub motors are a thing of the past.
Bit doesn't Thixomolded Magnesium ignite at 900 degrees Fahrenheit? That could be a problem in EVs since Lithium Batteries burn a twice that temperature. At least according to the MSDS.
Why does nobody read the pin comment 😂
Amazing content. Good detail and easy explanations for any level of education to understand.
🤜🤛🤠
Another great video
Very well done episode. THanks - keep up your good work.
Who else remembers Slartibartfast every time Magrathea is spoken?
supply chain safety is most important, if the USA can make enough to supply itself there is a major risk in moving! Aluminum is super common, magnesium not so much. The micro chip shortage showed us you can not make cars without key components.
Amen!
Superb presentation
If this process is better, Tesla is already on it, they are a generation ahead of any competition.
I am an EV skeptic because of battery problems. But, many of the advances in Magnesium thixomolding could benefit ICE vehicles as well. For both, It seems as though the 'low hanging fruit', is wheels. However, I am again reminded of previous experience with magnesium fracturing, rather than deforming, when strength limits are exceeded.
Stagnation fallacy
Super video Jordan
Thanks man! 🤜🤛🤠
Magnesium becoming cheaper will be a welcomed development for lightweight camping gear; it's wild out there right now, very pricey! I'm about 1/3 of the way into the video, so perhaps you cover this later, but I can imagine there will be some alignment from Tesla with SpaceX on commoditizing the magnesium market. Cheaper, lighter parts for space craft and materials for the Moon and Mars settlements would certainly be useful. Thanks for the video - stoked about the future!
OOoooh, I didn't think much about Spacex. Good point.
The rockets will be primarily stainless steel due to their strength to weight ratio and thermal tolerances.
So, I'm not sure where that Mg could be used except in like vehicles, satellites, doors assemblies, etc.
@@thelimitingfactor Good point, I'm learning about all of this now but it's a fun material science journey to be on.
Thixomoulding technology has been around for about 40 years. So far it has had less impact than was originally envisioned. The reasons for its lack of success are probably quite complex. It remains to be seen whether or not it can obtain the status of its original promise.
The reason why it didn't take hold for the first 20 years it because it was under patent and Thixomat did a poor job of commercializing it. Check out the headline article on Light Metal Age today.
@@thelimitingfactorThe patent issues in the light metal industry from the mid 1980s through to about 2010 has been a can of worms, however I doubt that is a factor that held back the adoption of thixomoulding.
There are some definite theoretical advantages of thixomoulding over die casting so there may still be a bright future for the technology.
The S&P global analysis does not appear to me to be of much value.
Predicting the future prices of commodities is a game for the brave.
Fair enough, but you've effectively said nothing other than "I disagree, I'm cynical, and it's hard to predict the future"
Great, but that doesn't add to the conversation and I haven't learned anything from this discourse.
Thixomolding might also better preserve homogeneity for composite alloy where components tend to separate when fully melted. There are many technology the are used to form metal while they are in a plastic or semi-molten state. Another factor is how quick the metal can be pushed into form as not to solidify on the way.
Excellent video.
At our lunar base we use electrical charge to drive the molding instead of pressure, which works way better!
Jordan, I was curious if commercial planes used magnesium and they use only 1% on commercial planes. The FAA is now considering allowing more magnesium to be used now that fire issues are reduced by using Magnesium alloys. So if the airplanes can be made lighter, tons of fuel would be saved.
I spent a number of years as crew chief for a person that raced a super fast Formula type car. I never forget the time I grab the tire and wheel with the magnesium wheels and was so surprised how light the wheels were. My friend the race car driver said back then exactly what you said today that a lighter wheel increase the speed and one thing he mention was "unsprung weight" is less. Thus increasing suspension handling and less weight of the wheel keeps the tire on the ground and that means more tire on the road going around turns meaning better tire to road contact.
I would love Elon to start providing magnesium wheels on all Tesla cars first to increase the speed of the car and save on battery energy use.
That really would be cool. Now that Magnesium Alloy can lower the the chance of fire that is great.
Tesla should give customer an option to install magnesium wheels. I am sure Tesla can buy the magnesium cheaper if enough volume is used. How cool would it be to own magnesium wheels. I want it for sure.
Very informative video, love it and learn so much.
I looked up wheels for a Tesla and found they make carbon fiber wheels and guess what they cost ===> 20 inch wheel Model 3 Forged Carbon Fiber ---> $6,995.00. for a set of 4 ----->weighing in at 14.2 lbs each wheel----> Better keep car in a garage and within sight
I couldn't find any Magnesium Wheels for a Tesla, but I found some information that may make you think twice, It says that Magnesium wheels get brittle with age. Jordan is this something you would consider researching as far as the longevity of the formed Magnesium over time.
Jordan I did find a place that makes or sell magnesium wheels for Tesla. The brand is called "HALIBRAND ENGINEERING". the wheels for the Model 3 is called Hyperkinetic HB003 -----> price is $409.95. Not bad if you can save fuel over time. The HB003 wheels are 5 lbs lighter than factory stock forged wheels.
The factory forged wheels for a Tesla is about 32-38 lbs. ---> double the weight of a forged carbon fiber wheel not sure on the magnesium wheels cause they didn't give me weight. Can look it up in a racing catalog.
Thanks Jordan
Planes have very different economics than vehicles, with different requirements, and use much more advanced alloys with different metal working techniques. That is, it's not in my wheelhouse.
Glad you enjoyed the video!
Lol, yes, carbon fibre wheels and forged mag wheels are very dear. $
Hoping that changes with thixo
I'm not really sure assosciating porosity with low quality is a good expression. What you probably mean is the 'random porosity'. When it is not controled it creates unpredictable weak points. If one could make uniform porosity high strengh steel casting that would probably be extremely good quality but right now it is not possible :-)
Good point! Metal foam has porosity, lol
Great video. Well done. Thank you.
not an expert at all, but I would worry that magnesium will corrode a lot more than Aluminum, and one should paint it. Also Galvanic corrosion when next to aluminum is a worry. I love aluminum for the corrosion resistance.
I covered that in the video, and joining materials with different galvanic properties is a solved problem. Tesla does it all the time.
He covered that at 19:00. Basically, different alloys of magnesium and coating can address this issue.
Love this channel...☺️
ONLY PROBLEM I SEE , Magnesium is highly flammable, especially when powdered or shaved into thin strips, though it is difficult to ignite in mass or bulk. Flame temperatures of magnesium and magnesium alloys can reach 3,100 °C (5,610 °F) add a lithium battery to this, AND IT WILL BE QUITE A SHOW WHEN IT LIGHTS UP !
Already covered in the first video the series
Please direct to coverage thanks @@thelimitingfactor
found it thanks @@thelimitingfactor
I tried to put out a magnesium fire it's not worth the trouble
I wonder how this would apply to the Tesla Semi.
I don't know how mag rims would do on a semi, but that's potentially a big opportunity. Each semi rim can weigh 50-80 pounds depending if it's aluminum or steel. 10 rims on the trick = potentially 150 to 300 pounds.
In bicycle riding most riders prefer carbon over magnesium not because it is much lighter but also because it is much stiffer.
Magnesium dampens and that loses energy in Parts that need to be stiff.
So I dont know if this applies to car wheels but its probably different.
How about the *repairability* of magnesium vs. aluminum vs. steel?
That will be a major factor in insurance prices and thus the cost of ownership.
Covered in my crashworthiness video. They use sacrificial extensions.
Love your videos 🎉
Your vids are great, love the detail...however I'm wondering if Mg is made obsolete by carbon fiber which is about as light, very strong and replacing Al? Not sure if you did a vid on it...might be worth comparing. Also I hope one day to break into the vehicle field where weight is everything...seems it'd be easier to stick with Al and CF which are established industries...though Al is easier to form.
Likely different products with different use cases, properties, and cost structures. That is, much like there is no wonder battery, there is no wonder material. There are always first principles trade-offs.
However, I don't know what those specific trade-offs are for carbon fiber. It's something I'd have to do a deep dive on.
@@thelimitingfactor ya true, Mg might have its niche...only worry I have for CF is that is breaks/brittle fracture...no smooth deformation, but the aerospace industry trusts it so it should be safe enough. Ya if you do a vid on this I'd look forward to seeing it.
Great Show
Did you take into account Tesla making their own dies on site into the cost per die you estimated?
Since they would be making both the mag and al dies, I left it out. I wanted to make it like for like as possible for a given manufacturer. If it was non tesla, then they wouldn't make either die in house.
I would think that the aerospace industry would probably become a large consumer of magnesium to replace some of the aluminum parts if it can be vetted for safety and the costs come down. The weight savings alone would make it attractive.
Thank you!
Drink whenever Jason says "limiting factor" in his own videos. 😂
Take a bow. This is a masterpiece
🙏
What is your thoughts on carbon fiber composite for structural use
I would have to do a deep dive
Nice presentation. I probably missed it, but did you mention recyclability for gigacast aluminum and thixomolded magnesium?
Equal recyclability, but as I covered in the last video, there's just another step for thixo
Would have expected aeronautics to be the 1st application for thixo mag, as weight is even more critical there. And the manufacturing cost savings over traditional mag substractive machining would seem substantial.
Though the same arguments should apply to aluminum gigacasting as well. Is there a GC trend in aero ?
This series is just focusing on automotive. Aeronautics is another kettle of fish.
I’m so impatient for this change. Anything to get more cars in on the virtuous cycle of weight reduction. “Simplify and add lightness” is a mantra to live by.
Generally agree and enjoy the videos. Thank You. Comparing a 2020 Aluminum alloy to a future 2030 Magnesium should come with a cautionary note. Giga casting scrap can be remelted and reused in the car factory. With Thixomold the scrap can not be recycled in this way. These do not outweigh the advantages of Thixomold casting.
Thanks!
The cautionary note was that I stated what the comparison was explicitly. And, I left everything on screen so people can make their own comparisons and come to their own conclusions.
A good point on scrap, I did cover that in the last video but I could have touched on it again here
@@thelimitingfactor Ah. should watch again from the start when the series is complete. Memory is not what it used to be.
How do you know all this? Great series. Keep it up
I don't/didn't. I have a magical network of elves who's brains I pick 😁
6:12 thanks for the hard work! Is the $8/each of savings assuming cargo weight or dry weight?
That's just the cost of the cell and the battery pack and nothing else
So many insights😮❤
🤜🤛🤠
I'd love a lightweight magnesium spare tire that wasn't obscenely expensive
Biggest problem with Magnesium is it's flamability. Even the magnesium alloys that mitigate this will still burn at the temperatures NMC batteries produce during thermal runaway. The battery flamability problem will probably have to be solved first before Magnesium or Carbon fiber become common in automotive.
Covered extensively in the series. Red herring
@thelimitingfactor I saw in the series where you showed silicon and calcium can raise the combustion temperature of a magnesium alloy. But none of those alloys raise above the temperature lithium battery fires will easily pass at 800 C and can go as high 2000 C. Then you also didn't show that fire resistant magnesium alloys have all the other benefits of magnesium.
When you show strength to weight (4:40), that's not really the whole story. often the design specification is for pannel stiffness both for durability and to handle compressive loads without buckling. Given that, a lower-density material is generally more efficient even if it has identical strength-to-weight and stiffness-to-weight ratios. I think it might be useful to show stiffness/denisty^3 in addition to the strength-to-weight ratios. it would do a lot to explain why aluminum and steel are about the same total cost even for traditional car manufacturing.
Magnesium is a really interesting material and I'm curious where it goes once it's more available since it is so lightweight.
Correct, that's why I said that it would require another entire video to cover material properties. I deleted a full page of script just on buckling alone after I realized that it would turn the video into a >1 hour video.
@@thelimitingfactor I can see why that would happen. buckling isn't very intuitive if you haven't done any structural engineering (I just got my undergrad in aerospace engineering from Purdue), so I get why it wasn't included.
A lot of the car, including a lot of the heavy energy-absorbing components, are stiffness-driven, not strength-driven, and some parts like paneling would probably use thinner metal if the tooling allowed. Given that, I think your strength only estimates probably undersell the potential weight savings with magnesium. On the other hand, as an engineer, I do appreciate conservative estimates.
Interesting video as always. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the CO2 footprint of Mg vs Aluminum as well as the fact that most Mg comes from China.
Next video
Hi Jordan, excellent work here. Question: did you consider any possible advances in aluminum by 2030? If aluminum also advances it could offset magnesium's increased advantages.
If you look at the spider chart, you can see that the Al characteristics improve as well from 2020-2030...so yes
Light EV vans (the
Isn't magnesium extraordinarily flamable?
yes and no. Watch the first vide of the series
What about the welding capability MG versus AL ?
thixo welds better - less porosity
What about the repair industry, how will they go removing damaged sections and welding new magnesium frame parts?
There's crush cans at the front and rear.
Those can just be unbolted and a new one bolted on.
Any damage beyond that would normally be a write-off for any car, and the same is true with giga castings
@thelimitingfactor Yeah, I realise that officially, they are written off, but you can still weld in new parts. Can magnesium be welded?
Thanks, Jordan.
One thing you didn't discuss (or if you did, I missed it) is Mg's propensity to react with water, even water vapor. In your opinion, do you think this will be an issue if Mg is used for structural components?
Sure thing...
Molten magnesium reacts with water, but that's really only an issue for the firefighters, and it's something they've been dealing with for about 100 years. Solid magnesium metal does have corrosion issues but...
That's a solved problem. For references, check out the first video of the series.
You had me at Thixomolding !
🤣
Are there any Al alloys that could benefit from increased availablility of Mg?
Almost all aluminum alloys contain magnesium
I want a one pice heavy truck body, when van i get that?
Is the flammability of Magnesium a concern?
See the first video. No
It looked like your solution still used a gigapress... but with the addition of a device injecting into the mold at the same time. If it was you and you were Tesla, would you switch post haste? Are you confident the magnesium from sea water can be brought on line soon enough?
I explicitly said this was years away and it depended on magnesium scaling, and I'll cover that in the next video.
@@thelimitingfactor Yes you did. And I was left feeling that was a long lead time yet necessary component. As to the rest of my question(s)....?
How about coating magnesium with Thermal-XR graphene?
For a vehicle that wouldn't be necessary and what add cost
Can we use lithium or metallic hydrogen one day?
Depends for what
Sorry, didn't specify. I meant that since we're usingprogressively lighter casting metals, one day we could make car bodies out of lithium or hydrogen. Of course, we can't even make the latter yet. But do you know if it's possible to use lithium? I feel like it would be explosive, but then again I didn't imagine magnesium could be used either. @@thelimitingfactor
Magnesium in aviation VS carbon fibre might make a good video
4680 sounds like a nvidia graphics card.
Are you taking into consideration that the cost of aluminum may change because of improved technology also?
Yep, I even put it on screen if you look closely at the spider charts
Ahh thanks, excellent video. Great things to come with magnesium it appears.
Your "back of the napkin math" about removing one 4680 cell per 2.2kg removed doesn't take into account aerodynamic drag which accounts for a significant amount of energy use 🧐 Depends on speed² so highly dependent on usage so difficult to precisely say how much it matters overall, but I'm guessing between 40-60%.
That's why it's called "back of the napkin math"
You're bringing physics into it, which can be a 20 minute video in and of itself.
I simply looked at the number of cells per a given weight, completely independent of any physics calculations, trim level, or conditions.
@@thelimitingfactor I see, thanks for the video!
Isn't magnesium combustible? I wonder how that would play out in a battery short.
Read the pinned comment
@@thelimitingfactor Sorry. I missed that. I later saw a point about something to do with additives to reduce that tendency. Thanks.
All these weight reductions will greatly benefit ICE as well.
True! That's what it was pioneered for actually back in the day.
Thanks!
You're most welcome! Thanks for the support.